Under God?

[laugh-to-live]

Should "Under God" be taken out of the USA's Pledge of Allegiance?

Discuss.

[Perseus]

It would make the pledge all goofy if it wasn't there, to be honest. So, it doesn't matter to me, but I like it, lol.

[Peace God]

Why do we have to pledge allegiance to the flag in the first place?
And yes, the "god" part should be taken out.

[AgusCO]

Why do we have to pledge allegiance to the flag in the first place?
And yes, the "god" part should be taken out.

Agreed. We also have that here in Argentina(Actually we have it twice).
Why force patriotism into people?If you don't feel part of it, it won't even matter to you (In my case,I just sayed it because I had to, not because I felt like)
And well, I think there is no need to talk about forcing religion...

[dontknow2010]

Why do we have to pledge allegiance to the flag in the first place?
And yes, the "god" part should be taken out.

If you are going to a public school u do have the option to say it or not... the only thing teachers should ask you to do is stand up and maybe look at the flag. They can't force you to say it.

And no... god shouldn't be taken out from the pledge... it's like saying should god be taken out of "in god we trust" from the cent coins?"

[Raptor22]

I dont feel that having "under god" is insulting even if I was athiest. God could mean anything, Judeo-Christian god, Allah, Buddha, Pagan gods, Hindu gods, your conscience. Whatever is a higher controlling being can be your own personal "god". As I said, your conscience can be your god if you want it to be.

Stop taking things so literally...

[Peace God]

If you are going to a public school u do have the option to say it or not... the only thing teachers should ask you to do is stand up and maybe look at the flag. They can't force you to say it.
I think even the standing up and looking at the flag is too much.

And no... god shouldn't be taken out from the pledge... it's like saying should god be taken out of "in god we trust" from the cent coins?"

Why not?... i dont trust in "god".

Edit: I dont care that much about it either, but if we are talking about what is fair and what this country was "supposedly" built on, then it does matter

[Dive to Survive]

I think that the part about God shouldn't be taken out. It's what our country was built on. However, I don't like that we have to pledge allegiance to a flag. Even if it is our country's flag. With the way our government is going, they could use it against us. That, when we were in kindergarten (for example) they had us pledge allegiance to a flag. We didn't know any better and we wanted to do what our teacher wanted us to do. So, we did it. They could use it against us.

[Peace God]

I think that the part about God shouldn't be taken out. It's what our country was built on.
puritans(pilgrims) were exiled from england for there religious beliefs
that is why the church is supposed to be separated from the state

1st Amendment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution)

[INFERNO]

"God" can mean any one of the millions of higher beings in the world but for being on the flag or on the bills, I don't see much of a problem with it because you don't have to believe in the god to pledge allegiance or use the money. Religion should be removed as much as possible from legal policies and procedures but the way it stands now in the modern day, there are fewer and fewer Christians (assuming the "God" is the Christian god) in the US and of those who are Christians, few are extremists or fundamentalists. I don't think it's such a big deal and if we were to remove it, there'd be such a hassle and for what? To remove a word despite its presence not affecting people deeply? Kind of a waste to me.

I think that the part about God shouldn't be taken out. It's what our country was built on. However, I don't like that we have to pledge allegiance to a flag. Even if it is our country's flag. With the way our government is going, they could use it against us. That, when we were in kindergarten (for example) they had us pledge allegiance to a flag. We didn't know any better and we wanted to do what our teacher wanted us to do. So, we did it. They could use it against us.

I'm a bit confused as to what exactly is it that would be used against us? How would it be used against us and more specifically, what would be used against us? :confused::confused:

Also, the US history involved separating the domination of the Church from the mass of people, not to integrate. Religion was involved in the history but it wasn't built upon nicely integrating religion into the states.

[dontknow2010]

I think even the standing up and looking at the flag is too much.



Then don't stand up and if your instuctor tries to tell you something, explain yor beliefs for not doing it. If that doesn't work take it up to the school or district administration (depends on how far you want take it).


Why not?... i dont trust in "god".


Well we can't take out god from "in god we trust" in the coins because it will take time and money (and the majority of the people wanting to) reform our entire currency system.

[Sage]

Whatever is a higher controlling being can be your own personal "god". As I said, your conscience can be your god if you want it to be.

Unless of course you're a satanist like myself and answer to no one.

[Peace God]

Then don't stand up and if your instuctor tries to tell you something, explain yor beliefs for not doing it. If that doesn't work take it up to the school or district administration (depends on how far you want take it).
Yes but not everyone is aware of this fact especially when many people are forced to do it from an early age.


Well we can't take out god from "in god we trust" in the coins because it will take time and money (and the majority of the people wanting to) reform our entire currency system.
I dont think it would be that hard. Coins have been changed before, in fact they are changed every year.

Again, i really dont care but when asked that question i will always say yes.

[dontknow2010]

Yes but not everyone is aware of this fact especially when many people are forced to do it from an early age.


To wrap things up here... everyone who is not aware can become aware if they read their school's "Student/Parent Handbook" or whatever it's called at the school.

On a little side note here (talking about changing money) there is a proposal to put the face of Ronald Reagan on the $50 bill

[Peace God]

To wrap things up here... everyone who is not aware can become aware if they read their school's "Student/Parent Handbook" or whatever it's called at the school.
That doesnt change much when the pointless tradition of obediently standing, honoring the flag and reciting a poem is instilled at the age of 5 or 6 for most americans.
It can also be interpreted as a from of psychological control(but i think that's a little too extreme).


On a little side note here (talking about changing money) there is a proposal to put the face of Ronald Reagan on the $50 bill

F*cking hate that man
but that's a completely different debate that i dont feel like getting into

[Aves]

Really doesn't bother me so....

[Scarface]

I personally don't believe in god I'm an agnostic so i think they should have it taken out. Religion nor patriotism should be forced upon people who don't believe or want to be.

[Disco Jones]

Man it's pretty easy to just not say "under God". Or the whole pledge, if you don't want to. No point in wasting resources deciding whether to take it out or keep it in, even if it was taken out individual students could add "under God" to their personal recitals as easily as you could take it out.

[INFERNO]

Man it's pretty easy to just not say "under God". Or the whole pledge, if you don't want to. No point in wasting resources deciding whether to take it out or keep it in, even if it was taken out individual students could add "under God" to their personal recitals as easily as you could take it out.

If you want to make it official, then one will have to spend such resources and if one doesn't include the "under god" bit, then they haven't said the full pledge. I'm not sure if that's allowed or not but if not, then one would at least have to enact a policy stating such.

[Dive to Survive]

\ I'm a bit confused as to what exactly is it that would be used against us? How would it be used against us and more specifically, what would be used against us? :confused::confused:
I think that eventually our government may become corrupt. They could say "anyone who had ever pledged allegiance to our flag must..." I think they could just use it against us in such a form.
puritans(pilgrims) were exiled from england for there religious beliefs
that is why the church is supposed to be separated from the state

1st Amendment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution)
I know but they wanted to have their own beleifs. It was put in the pledge at the beginning and I think it should stay in there.

[The Batman]

It's not that big of a deal. It's not like if you don't say it they are going to come bathe you in holy water and cast out the devil inside you. If you don't want to say it then don't say it. I only said the pledge when I wanted to at school but still I stood up with my hand across my heart out of respect.

[Disco Jones]

If you want to make it official, then one will have to spend such resources and if one doesn't include the "under god" bit, then they haven't said the full pledge. I'm not sure if that's allowed or not but if not, then one would at least have to enact a policy stating such.

They can't force you to say the pledge in full or at all.

[Commander Thor]

I know but they wanted to have their own beleifs. It was put in the pledge at the beginning and I think it should stay in there.

No, it was NOT put in the pledge in the beginning. It was added to the pledge in 1954
In fact, the original Pledge of Allegiance was very different from the current one.

I pledge allegiance to my flag and the republic for which it stands: one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all.
I pledge allegiance to my flag and to the republic for which it stands: one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all.
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States and to the republic for which it stands: one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all.
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands; one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all.
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
(I bolded & underlined the changes in each version)

[Peace God]

I know but they wanted to have their own beleifs.
exactly!!! your kind of proving my point...they wanted to right to have there own beliefs so that's why america was initially built on the freedom to have your own beliefs

It was put in the pledge at the beginning and I think it should stay in there.
that's a terrible reason to want to keep things the same way
slavery was also in america from the beginning
edit: and according to xbox360922(^) it wasnt...

[ltimm]

I wholehartedly believe that 'god' should be taken out of the pledge and off of our money! The First Amendment protects my right of religion, yet I'm getting Theism forced on me everyday. It's ridiculous! At least Britain is going something right by putting Darwin on their money :P

and actually. UNder god wasn't put in the pledge until 1954. And not on paper money unitl 1955. It's been on coins since 1864

[Disco Jones]

Religion isn't being forced on you in any way.

[dontknow2010]

I wholehartedly believe that 'god' should be taken out of the pledge and off of our money! The First Amendment protects my right of religion, yet I'm getting Theism forced on me everyday. It's ridiculous! At least Britain is going something right by putting Darwin on their money :P


Well you could do something too by contacting you congressional representatives and both of your state senators to see what they can do.

[ltimm]

I doubt they could do anything

[dontknow2010]

Take this thread for example.... many people have the same opinion as you... if all of you contacted your reps. and senators you could actually start something.

[ltimm]

I just wrote him a heafty note!!

[Dive to Survive]

We all have the right to beleive whatever we want (as is in the Constitution) so why should anyone be bothered by what money says? If you are strong in your beleifs than it shouldn't bother you.

[dontknow2010]

I just wrote him a heafty note!!

Democracy in action! :)

[JOSEE]

yes im wit hi, mostly, but we pledge to the Father in heaven who made us, for the freedom im proud to say is mine! For the foundation on GOD AND GOD ALONE! God bles america, so no take God out of the flag, take me out of the country. Whos with me!

I wholehartedly believe that 'god' should be taken out of the pledge and off of our money! The First Amendment protects my right of religion, yet I'm getting Theism forced on me everyday. It's ridiculous! At least Britain is going something right by putting Darwin on their money :P

and actually. UNder god wasn't put in the pledge until 1954. And not on paper money unitl 1955. It's been on coins since 1864

its not foreced its adviced i suggest u take the oppertunity.

I think that the part about God shouldn't be taken out. It's what our country was built on. However, I don't like that we have to pledge allegiance to a flag. Even if it is our country's flag. With the way our government is going, they could use it against us. That, when we were in kindergarten (for example) they had us pledge allegiance to a flag. We didn't know any better and we wanted to do what our teacher wanted us to do. So, we did it. They could use it against us.

yes im wit hi, mostly, but we pledge to the Father in heaven who made us, for the freedom im proud to say is mine! For the foundation on GOD AND GOD ALONE! God bles america, so no take God out of the flag, take me out of the country. Whos with me!

sorry messed up
Don't double or in this case triple post ~Mojo Jojo

[ltimm]

God didn't make this country free. Our Military and past presidents and past militia did. This country wasn't founded as a Christian Nation so you can't pin your Christian beliefs on our freedom.

[Sage]

so no take God out of the flag, take me out of the country. Whos with me!
I have no problem taking you out of the country.

[INFERNO]

yes im wit hi, mostly, but we pledge to the Father in heaven who made us, for the freedom im proud to say is mine! For the foundation on GOD AND GOD ALONE! God bles america, so no take God out of the flag, take me out of the country. Whos with me!

Sorry to burst your bubble of patriotism but Christianity didn't give freedom to the US. The Church was against freedom in many respects, not for it, for having freedom could allow for mass disbelief in Christianity. So with that misconception aside, having you leave the country does nothing, you'd still be patriotic, you'd still be everything that you are now but do as you say.... .

[soccer8]

well im might not believe in god but i dont think it should be taken out thats just disrespecting the country anyways if you dont like it dont say it but im also in the middle cause i do think kinda it should be taken out

[Jess]

Don't believe in God but if it gets taken out some people will protest

[Lord Anubis]

yes im wit hi, mostly, but we pledge to the Father in heaven who made us, for the freedom im proud to say is mine! For the foundation on GOD AND GOD ALONE! God bles america, so no take God out of the flag, take me out of the country. Whos with me!



its not foreced its adviced i suggest u take the oppertunity.



yes im wit hi, mostly, but we pledge to the Father in heaven who made us, for the freedom im proud to say is mine! For the foundation on GOD AND GOD ALONE! God bles america, so no take God out of the flag, take me out of the country. Whos with me!

sorry messed up
Don't double or in this case triple post ~Mojo Jojo

Not everyone believes in the Christian God. The United States was not founded upon Christian ideals.

The silly little flag pledge shouldn't even be in schools in the first place.

I remember being forced to say it in elementary school levels. Forced patriotism shouldn't be in a so called 'free nation' such as the United States.

[Peace God]

who cares if the protest

[dontknow2010]

I remember being forced to say it in elementary school levels. Forced patriotism shouldn't be in a so called 'free nation' such as the United States.

Well if you and/or your parents don't agree with the rules set by the public school system, you have the freedom to choose to go to a private school.

[Disco Jones]

The schools cannot force you to say it. They can try, but you have the right to refuse.

[quartermaster]

Sorry to burst your bubble of patriotism but Christianity didn't give freedom to the US. The Church was against freedom in many respects, not for it, for having freedom could allow for mass disbelief in Christianity. So with that misconception aside, having you leave the country does nothing, you'd still be patriotic, you'd still be everything that you are now but do as you say.... .

Wait a minute, which church? What does this so-called "Church" entail?

The New England churches, for instance, were some of the focal points for revolutionary fervor in the United States. Parishioners and Clergy alike spoke of the merits of democracy and freedom, shunning what they saw as the un-Christian tyranny of their Hanoverian king. In fact, one of the most interesting correlations one learns in a basic level political science class is that there is a strong correlation between Protestantism and democracy (see Samuel P. Huntington). Though I do not agree with the original poster, I believe there is quite a bit you are generalizing and not taking into account here.

Edit:

On the original point, I believe the Pledge of Allegiance should be done away with all-together. Surly one can see that having children say this pledge is no more than overt brainwashing, as it uses the appeal to authority and the masses to "force" children to pledge allegiance to the state, without them even understanding what it actually means, or rather, the implications.

[Raptor22]

Unless of course you're a satanist like myself and answer to no one.

You dont answer to your conscience? Your own personal compass of right and wrong? Your own personal moral belief system. You could be your own god. :)

"God" doesnt have to mean the literal judeo-christian "God", its any power internal or external that one uses to guide them in life. Thats it. Period.

[dead]

You dont answer to your conscience? Your own personal compass of right and wrong? Your own personal moral belief system. You could be your own god. :)

"God" doesnt have to mean the literal judeo-christian "God", its any power internal or external that one uses to guide them in life. Thats it. Period.

Great way to change a definition. Next time know what words mean before using them in the wrong manner.

[Raptor22]

Great way to change a definition. Next time know what words mean before using them in the wrong manner.

Pardon me?

By its most literal definition, "god" means higher power. Now whether that is a religious god or a personal higher power is up to you.

Dictionary Definitions of "god":

1.
the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe.
2.
the Supreme Being considered with reference to a particular attribute: the God of Islam.
3.
(lowercase) one of several deities, esp. a male deity, presiding over some portion of worldly affairs.
4.
(often lowercase) a supreme being according to some particular conception: the god of mercy.
5.
Christian Science. the Supreme Being, understood as Life, Truth, Love, Mind, Soul, Spirit, Principle.
6.
(lowercase) an image of a deity; an idol.
7.
(lowercase) any deified person or object.
8.
(often lowercase) Gods, Theater.
a.
the upper balcony in a theater.
b.
the spectators in this part of the balcony.
–verb (used with object)god·ded, god·ding. (lowercase)
9.
to regard or treat as a god; deify; idolize.
–interjection
10.
(used to express disappointment, disbelief, weariness, frustration, annoyance, or the like): God, do we have to listen to this nonsense?


My definition calls upon definition 4, 6, and 7. Your personal god can be any person or object that is idolized or followed.

[dead]

Pardon me?

By its most literal definition, "god" means higher power. Now whether that is a religious god or a personal higher power is up to you.

Dictionary Definitions of "god":

1.
the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe.
2.
the Supreme Being considered with reference to a particular attribute: the God of Islam.
3.
(lowercase) one of several deities, esp. a male deity, presiding over some portion of worldly affairs.
4.
(often lowercase) a supreme being according to some particular conception: the god of mercy.
5.
Christian Science. the Supreme Being, understood as Life, Truth, Love, Mind, Soul, Spirit, Principle.
6.
(lowercase) an image of a deity; an idol.
7.
(lowercase) any deified person or object.
8.
(often lowercase) Gods, Theater.
a.
the upper balcony in a theater.
b.
the spectators in this part of the balcony.
–verb (used with object)god·ded, god·ding. (lowercase)
9.
to regard or treat as a god; deify; idolize.
–interjection
10.
(used to express disappointment, disbelief, weariness, frustration, annoyance, or the like): God, do we have to listen to this nonsense?


My definition calls upon definition 4, 6, and 7. Your personal god can be any person or object that is idolized or followed.

Yes those are the definitions, but you were implying that everyone has a god. Which is false.

[Mrred]

Well keeping "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance would make this country entirely hypocrytic. Considering the fact that in our Constitution we are garunteed freedom of religion. Not all people choose to believe there is even a "God". We all are personally garunteed that we do not have to follow any religion at all, so making people without belief in a "God" cite a pledge that states that they believe that there is a God would make this country even more of a Hypocrit then it already is!

[Disco Jones]

You cannot be forced to say the pledge.

[Raptor22]

Yes those are the definitions, but you were implying that everyone has a god. Which is false.

Well I am implying that everyone has some values of some sort, some kind of moral guidance that comes from somewhere, some kind of internal compass guiding one right or wrong. Im not saying that everyone believes in god, I am saying that everyone has something they follow, be them rules, or idols, or spiritual beings, or even their conscience. Everyone has a conscience.

Well keeping "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance would make this country entirely hypocrytic. Considering the fact that in our Constitution we are garunteed freedom of religion. Not all people choose to believe there is even a "God". We all are personally garunteed that we do not have to follow any religion at all, so making people without belief in a "God" cite a pledge that states that they believe that there is a God would make this country even more of a Hypocrit then it already is!

Would you people read my post before posting?

[dead]

Well I am implying that everyone has some values of some sort, some kind of moral guidance that comes from somewhere, some kind of internal compass guiding one right or wrong. Im not saying that everyone believes in god, I am saying that everyone has something they follow, be them rules, or idols, or spiritual beings, or even their conscience. Everyone has a conscience.



Would you people read my post before posting?

Not everyone has conscience. They are people who don't feel remorse or guilt. A Lot of past Serial killers couldn't feel remorse or guilt. Don't assume things you do not know for sure.

[Kaya]

i dont rly say the pledge...but i think "under god" should remain in the pledge

[Evermore]

Not everyone has conscience. They are people who don't feel remorse or guilt. A Lot of past Serial killers couldn't feel remorse or guilt. Don't assume things you do not know for sure.

Hitler assumed he was doing a great favor to the world and would be considered a hero.

[Raptor22]

Not everyone has conscience. They are people who don't feel remorse or guilt. A Lot of past Serial killers couldn't feel remorse or guilt. Don't assume things you do not know for sure.


Okay, did those people ever look up to anyone? Idolize anyone? Believe in a God (capital G)? Have a concience? Rules regarding right and wrong? Believe something to be just or unjust? Have a mind of their own? I would be willing to bet that everyone fits into at least one of those categories.

[2D]

It doesn't matter. You can say it how you want, there's no law on how to say it. You can remove the "under god" part on your own or you can just not say it.

[Evermore]

Our forefathers founded it upon religious reasons. I think the under god should stay. Although like others have said I don't think we should have to say it at all.

[Raptor22]

It doesn't matter. You can say it how you want, there's no law on how to say it. You can remove the "under god" part on your own or you can just not say it.

Also a good point. Rep+

Our forefathers founded it upon religious reasons. I think the under god should stay. Although like others have said I don't think we should have to say it at all.

Actually 'under god' was added in 1954 in order to differentiate ourselves from communism and its government domination of thought and eradication of religion.

[Wtficus]

does it hurt you?

does it make you depressed?

Does it effect your life in any way?

No. So suck it up and leave it like it is, even if it isn't true.

[dontknow2010]

Does it effect your life in any way?

No. So suck it up and leave it like it is, even if it isn't true.

Wise words :)

[magikarpy]

does it hurt you?

does it make you depressed?

Does it effect your life in any way?

No. So suck it up and leave it like it is, even if it isn't true.

Exactly. Besides the pledge would sound weird without that part in it. I tried.

[Peace God]

maybe we should just replace "god" with something else...
smog?:P

[Wtficus]

maybe we should just replace "god" with something else...
smog?:P
yeah cause America wouldn't look stupid with that on their pledge

[Peace God]

yeah cause America wouldn't look stupid with that on their pledge
well we're not doing a good job of lookin smart anyways plus it would be more realistic

[Dive to Survive]

well we're not doing a good jod of lookin smart anyways plus it would be more realistic

how would replacing "God" with "smog" make it anymore realistic? We don't have that much smog in America!

[dontknow2010]

We don't have that much smog in America!

You might want to revise that again.... how about checking the air quality in the Los Angeles Basin and the Central Valley of California and then tell me there is not that much smog in America...

[Dive to Survive]

We have smog, but really? Putting that in our pledge?

[Raptor22]

You might want to revise that again.... how about checking the air quality in the Los Angeles Basin and the Central Valley of California and then tell me there is not that much smog in America...

True, where in CA are you? Im 12 miles out of Sac.

We have smog, but really? Putting that in our pledge?

Its a joke! :P

[Peace God]

how would replacing "God" with "smog" make it anymore realistic? We don't have that much smog in America!
im willing to bet we have more than any other country

We have smog, but really? Putting that in our pledge?
lol... it was the first word i could think of but i kinda like it now that u mention it

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under smog, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
:usflag:

[Raptor22]

im willing to bet we have more than any other country




No, China and India have a horrible pollution problem, and actually the problem was MUCH worse about 100 years ago. Like smoky horrible...

[Peace God]

No, China and India have a horrible pollution problem, and actually the problem was MUCH worse about 100 years ago. Like smoky horrible...
well.... maybe per capita

[Raptor22]

well.... maybe per capita

No like really really bad: this is Beijing: http://www.treehugger.com/china%20air%20pollution.jpg

That gray stuff isnt clouds, its crap in the air.

[Peace God]

No like really really bad: this is Beijing: http://www.treehugger.com/china%20air%20pollution.jpg

That gray stuff isnt clouds, its crap in the air.
ewww wtf are they doing down there?
and for some reason aerial photos creep me out

but anyways this is off topic and irrelevant soo...:eek3:

[Amnesiac]

Yes, because (as the atheist I am) I don't think we should have the government, which is constitutionally obliged to separate itself from religion, promoting a god. It was never part of the original pledge anyway, it was inserted as anti-communist propaganda in the 50s. It's easy enough to just take it out.

[Kohta]

I agree with TheDarthEgg
"Under God" was never in the original pledge and it violates the consitution

[magikarpy]

I am not religious but I think the pledge would sound weird without it not to mention our ancestors would be rolling over in there grave right now. Besides you can place anything as god over your life whether it be Ala, Jesus, Zeus, or Money. Aethiests are throwing a huge hissy fit about everything now that religion isn't held in such high regard. Their trying to change B.C and A.D because the root meanings of those abbreviations have christian roots.

Of course, as others have argued. Why have to say a pledge? Why should you have to pledge your allegiance to a supposed free country? They teach this when our children are too young to understand the concept of pledging allegiance to something. America could easily turn this against us.

[Disco Jones]

I agree with TheDarthEgg
"Under God" was never in the original pledge and it violates the consitution

how in the world does it violate the constitution

and you do not have to say the pledge

[Peace God]

how in the world does it violate the constitution

1st Amendment

[Disco Jones]

1st Amendment

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

can you explain to me how this is violated by putting "under God" in a pledge that is optional

[Peace God]

can you explain to me how this is violated by putting "under God" in a pledge that is optional
the 1st amendment separates church and state...the gov't can not promote religion in any way

[Disco Jones]

the 1st amendment separates church and state...the gov't can not promote religion in any way

Separation of church and state refers to "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". Which is not being violated. States make public schools set aside time to say the pledge, which you have an option to recite or not. Even if you choose to recite the pledge, you can choose to exclude "under God" for yourself if you do not feel that it is appropriate to say.

[Peace God]

Separation of church and state refers to "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". Which is not being violated. States make public schools set aside time to say the pledge, which you have an option to recite or not. Even if you choose to recite the pledge, you can choose to exclude "under God" for yourself if you do not feel that it is appropriate to say.
it's more then just laws... "god" is a religious belief being taught at a young age in public schools

but i gotta go to class right now so i will be back to debate this later

[Disco Jones]

A small optional reference in an optional pledge is hardly God being taught in schools. Which itself isn't bad as long as no religion is promoted, I've studied and discussed world religions in public school before.

[Amnesiac]

how in the world does it violate the constitution

and you do not have to say the pledge

First amendment, and before we go around quoting the first amendment, remember that its meaning has been expanded upon by the Supreme Court (judicial review). So there's a lot more to the first amendment than what's simply written.

[Amnesiac]

Separation of church and state refers to "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". Which is not being violated. States make public schools set aside time to say the pledge, which you have an option to recite or not. Even if you choose to recite the pledge, you can choose to exclude "under God" for yourself if you do not feel that it is appropriate to say.

We can't just simply say "you don't have to say it, therefore it's not a bad thing". The pledge is optional, but the fact is that it still exists, and it's a prime example of government endorsement of religion — something which has been frowned upon and ruled against since the days of the Constitutional Convention. Government is not allowed to endorse any part of religion. That's an established standard, the pledge isn't exempt from that.

[Peace God]

A small optional reference in an optional pledge is hardly God being taught in schools. Which itself isn't bad as long as no religion is promoted,
i and many others have never heard a teacher tell us that saying the pledge or saying "under god" was optional
in fact i didnt even know it was optional(however i did know it was rarely enforced) until i read the posts on this thread
why?
because i and millions of other americans have been told to say it(with "under god") since we were 5-6 yrs old
while it may be subtle and not that important, it IS promoting religious beliefs

[Dive to Survive]

Its really not promoting religious beleifs. It's optional and saying "God" isnt always to promote a religion. I dont mind being taught greek religions because i have my religious beleifs. Why would anyone be upset by saying "God" in a pledge? Its not being taught as other religions are.

[dead]

Its really not promoting religious beleifs. It's optional and saying "God" isnt always to promote a religion. I dont mind being taught greek religions because i have my religious beleifs. Why would anyone be upset by saying "God" in a pledge? Its not being taught as other religions are.

Its not being taught, Its subliminal.

[Disco Jones]

We can't just simply say "you don't have to say it, therefore it's not a bad thing". The pledge is optional, but the fact is that it still exists, and it's a prime example of government endorsement of religion — something which has been frowned upon and ruled against since the days of the Constitutional Convention. Government is not allowed to endorse any part of religion. That's an established standard, the pledge isn't exempt from that.

The pledge is just the pledge. The laws in question are state laws that require some time to be set aside where you may say or not say the pledge. Tying "under God" to it is not a promotion of religion, but a ceremonial statement that is hardly any law that respects an establishment of religion or prohibits the free excercise therof. A prime example of gov't endorsement of religion would be having to be Anglican to vote, not this.

As a five year old I knew my right to free speech and that the pledge didn't need to be said, I think you guys are seriously shortselling children with this subliminal promotion of religion stuff. The pledge is much more about promoting nationalism with "under God" as a short aside, if anything you should be worried about it turning kids into blind patriots rather than subliminally promoting religion.

[Amnesiac]

The pledge is just the pledge. The laws in question are state laws that require some time to be set aside where you may say or not say the pledge. Tying "under God" to it is not a promotion of religion, but a ceremonial statement that is hardly any law that respects an establishment of religion or prohibits the free excercise therof. A prime example of gov't endorsement of religion would be having to be Anglican to vote, not this.

As a five year old I knew my right to free speech and that the pledge didn't need to be said, I think you guys are seriously shortselling children with this subliminal promotion of religion stuff. The pledge is much more about promoting nationalism with "under God" as a short aside, if anything you should be worried about it turning kids into blind patriots rather than subliminally promoting religion.

I'm also concerned about the patriotic message the pledge holds. Not to be cynical or anything, but the United States is nowhere near as perfect as the pledge makes it out to be. We haven't fully given liberty and justice to all, and we haven't always been "one republic" or "indivisible" — at many times we're more divided than united. But this isn't part of the topic, the words "under God" are.

I don't think, in the context of the pledge, that "under God" can be considered a ceremonial statement. Again, it was introduced into the pledge during the 1950s to combat Communism and its anti-religious policies. I guess you can call it propaganda if anything. The days of the red scare are over, we live in a society that is full of different beliefs and opinions that must be respected. It's as equally offensive to atheists and other non-religious people to have "under God" in the pledge as it would be to Christians and other believers if "under no God" was in the pledge. It's issues like these that drive separation of church and state: there are simply too many different ideologies to accommodate even the smallest mention of religion by government.

[Disco Jones]

The point of separation and church and state is not to keep everybody in a non-offended state, it's to promote freedom of religion. This is so small as to barely be an issue, and certainly not the reason why that part of the 1st amendment was made. You could take out "under God" and there would be little difference and I would be fine, but the effort would be a waste of resources.

[Peace God]

A prime example of gov't endorsement of religion would be having to be Anglican to vote, not this.
Sorry but your hypothetical situations don't change anything.

As a five year old I knew my right to free speech and that the pledge didn't need to be said,
I seriously doubt that is true but if so then good for you. Millions of grown adults still dont know that the pledge and the "under god" part is optional.

I think you guys are seriously shortselling children with this subliminal promotion of religion stuff. The pledge is much more about promoting nationalism with "under God" as a short aside, if anything you should be worried about it turning kids into blind patriots rather than subliminally promoting religion.
You're absolutely right, no one should make too much of the whole psychological control of children problem. However, we're are not debating the goal of the pledge, how important the pledge is or whether or not the gov't is intentionally trying to promote religion in schools.
You should simply understand that CHURCH and STATE are separated and "god" is a religious thing that shouldn't be any where in public schools.
And unbiased teaching of world religions is completely different than promoting religion.
Although it is optional the method that most public schools go about the pledge leaves many kids with the impression that it is not optional.

[Disco Jones]

Right, which is why church or any establishment of religion has no part in the pledge, nor is it prohibiting any free exercise of religion.

[Peace God]

nor is it prohibiting any free exercise of religion.
yes but it's promoting a religious belief

[Disco Jones]

It isn't. This issue has been taken to the courts before, and it was decided that "under God" is just a ceremonial statement that doesn't actually promote any establishment of religion. Religious freedom is preserved. Keep in mind this is still totally an optional thing, with the only state laws being that time is set aside for it in public schools.

[Amnesiac]

It isn't. This issue has been taken to the courts before, and it was decided that "under God" is just a ceremonial statement that doesn't actually promote any establishment of religion. Religious freedom is preserved. Keep in mind this is still totally an optional thing, with the only state laws being that time is set aside for it in public schools.

Actually, the words "under God" have been the debate of smaller federal courts for decades, some of them declaring it unconstitutional and others not. It's a pretty gray area, there's no real legal consensus on it.

[Disco Jones]

Most recently it has been upheld, and its continued presence in the pledge shows that it is still generally supported.

[dead]

Most recently it has been upheld, and its continued presence in the pledge shows that it is still generally supported.

If you didn't know people who believe in God in america are the majority not the minority.

[Amnesiac]

If you didn't know people who believe in God in america are the majority not the minority.

The United States government is not supposed to pander to the majority. Protection of minorities is one of the founding principles of this country.

[dead]

The United States government is not supposed to pander to the majority. Protection of minorities is one of the founding principles of this country.

I know.

[Hollywood]

Yes, it should.

Making the entire nation's anthem based "Under God" gives the idea that 100% of Americans are Christians, which is of course, wrong. I am an Atheist, myself. This is a country of religious freedom, and I believe that we should honor this country as just that.

Taking it out is a great idea, but it will never happen. The Christians will never let their god be removed from anything and everything.

[Raptor22]

Yes, it should.

Making the entire nation's anthem based "Under God" gives the idea that 100% of Americans are Christians, which is of course, wrong. I am an Atheist, myself. This is a country of religious freedom, and I believe that we should honor this country as just that.

Taking it out is a great idea, but it will never happen. The Christians will never let their god be removed from anything and everything.

No it doesnt, read my posts. "god" can mean anything, if you have a conscience, a mentor, an idol, someone you look upto, a moral compass, pagan gods, indian gods, wiccan devils, judeo christian god... whatever. :)

[Hollywood]

No it doesnt, read my posts. "god" can mean anything, if you have a conscience, a mentor, an idol, someone you look upto, a moral compass, pagan gods, indian gods, wiccan devils, judeo christian god... whatever. :)

That may be true, but it is intended to mean the Christian god. If it was meant to mean anyone you look up to, it would read "One nation, under all higher powers...". You make a good point, but it still originates from the Christian god, and still means "Under Christiany".

[Amnesiac]

No it doesnt, read my posts. "god" can mean anything, if you have a conscience, a mentor, an idol, someone you look upto, a moral compass, pagan gods, indian gods, wiccan devils, judeo christian god... whatever. :)

In the pledge, "God" is capitalized, which means it refers specifically to the Judeo-Christian God. "Under God" was always meant to be about the Christian God, it was a Presbyterian minister who suggested to President Eisenhower that the words be inserted into the pledge. As I've said before, this is outdated anti-Communist propaganda (The USSR was notably anti-religious).

[Raptor22]

That may be true, but it is intended to mean the Christian god. If it was meant to mean anyone you look up to, it would read "One nation, under all higher powers...". You make a good point, but it still originates from the Christian god, and still means "Under Christiany".

No, thats not its intent, it means under a nation with a constitution that allows free theology (another word for spirituality) to exist, as opposed to the USSR that did not.

In the pledge, "God" is capitalized, which means it refers specifically to the Judeo-Christian God. "Under God" was always meant to be about the Christian God, it was a Presbyterian minister who suggested to President Eisenhower that the words be inserted into the pledge. As I've said before, this is outdated anti-Communist propaganda (The USSR was notably anti-religious).

Agreed as far as the definition goes, however really you can make god mean whatever you want it to...

You can tell yourself whatever you want... :P

[Peace God]

No it doesnt, read my posts. "god" can mean anything, if you have a conscience, a mentor, an idol, someone you look upto, a moral compass, pagan gods, indian gods, wiccan devils, judeo christian god... whatever. :)
we also have the right to reject all of those "gods"

[Raptor22]

we also have the right to reject all of those "gods"

So you are saying that you have never had a conscience or a moral compass or a belief in right or wrong, or someone you have looked up to, or something in your life that makes you, well you.

You can say that you might not have any of that stuff, but to be frank I will just think that you are full of shit. I will be willing to bet that everyone on that list has at least one of those by the age of two.

[Peace God]

So you are saying that you have never had a conscience or a moral compass or a belief in right or wrong, or someone you have looked up to, or something in your life that makes you, well you.

You can say that you might not have any of that stuff, but to be frank I will just think that you are full of shit. I will be willing to bet that everyone on that list has at least one of those by the age of two.
If i choose to reject those things as "god" i have the right to.

[Hollywood]

So you are saying that you have never had a conscience or a moral compass or a belief in right or wrong, or someone you have looked up to, or something in your life that makes you, well you.

You can say that you might not have any of that stuff, but to be frank I will just think that you are full of shit. I will be willing to bet that everyone on that list has at least one of those by the age of two.


A moral conscience and a religion are two totally different things. Your conscience can just simply tell you what is right or wrong when making a split-second decision. A religion (with gods) tells you what is right or wrong for the rest of your life, and if that is your religion, you have to follow those rules, wether you conscience tells you to or not.

[Country-Cowgirl]

The "under god" is in the pledge because of the nation originally being built under religion. I believe that it should be left in for those who want to say the pledge HOWEVER no one should be forced to say it. The fact is that the only reason to take it out is for 'religious freedoms' and 'discrimination' My point is that forcing those who do want it to say it is just that, discrimination. One religion should not take presidents of another and the pledge is just a tradition. Even when I lived on a Military base if the pledge 'offended' your religion or lack of then you didnt have to say it.

If prayer cant be banned from schools neither should the pledge. If at lunch you say a prayer then you should be patient enough to sit through the half minute it takes to say the pledge. There was at one time i didnt agree with the pledge so I wouldnt say it. I have been on both sides of this argument. When I lived in England I was forced to say the lords prayer and sing the anthem every day and I'm not British but it didnt hurt me any.

There is one discussion that I've heard several times about "Christians" being to "scared" to stand up for their religion because they dont want to hurt anyones feelings. I think in todays society religion is becoming more like racism, no one likes it or wants to here it but the argument is still there. Its a difference of opinion but I dont think there is any need to change the pledge.

[Amnesiac]

The "under god" is in the pledge because of the nation originally being built under religion.

The United States was founded to escape the all-powerful religious government of the British Empire. Many of the Founding Fathers cringed at the idea of America being a "Christian nation", especially Thomas Jefferson.

Take, for example, Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli (signed 1796) which reads:

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

[Raptor22]

A moral conscience and a religion are two totally different things. Your conscience can just simply tell you what is right or wrong when making a split-second decision. A religion (with gods) tells you what is right or wrong for the rest of your life, and if that is your religion, you have to follow those rules, wether you conscience tells you to or not.

The problem is: the word god does not necessarily have to refer to religion... :)

[Country-Cowgirl]

The United States was founded to escape the all-powerful religious government of the British Empire. Many of the Founding Fathers cringed at the idea of America being a "Christian nation", especially Thomas Jefferson.

they were 'escaping' not the Church of England but the prosecution of their religion and that King Henry (if i remember right) had decreed that any person found worshiping other out of Church of England would be hung or burned for treason. The Country was founded on the prospect of being able to worship your God your way. This in itself being an ironic statement seeing as how the FIRST settlers tried to force their religions on the 'savage' Indians. The country was settled and started under the idea of religion NOT Christianity but religion none the less. The Acts that followed after were to better clarify things that had changed with time. As much as people would like to believe that once rules are set they are unwavering the rules (acts laws, etc) must adapt to the new circumstances which is why the Acts were started.

[2D]

they were 'escaping' not the Church of England but the prosecution of their religion and that King Henry (if i remember right) had decreed that any person found worshiping other out of Church of England would be hung or burned for treason. The Country was founded on the prospect of being able to worship your God your way. This in itself being an ironic statement seeing as how the FIRST settlers tried to force their religions on the 'savage' Indians. The country was settled and started under the idea of religion NOT Christianity but religion none the less. The Acts that followed after were to better clarify things that had changed with time. As much as people would like to believe that once rules are set they are unwavering the rules (acts laws, etc) must adapt to the new circumstances which is why the Acts were started.

Ummm, no. Read a history book.

[Hollywood]

The problem is: the word god does not necessarily have to refer to religion... :)

Basically, it does. It refers to idols, higher powers, which is always branched from religion.

The basic meaning of the phrase "Under God" means under the Christian god, because that is the only god named simply "God". If we were a country of Buddhists, it would say "Under Buddah", a country of Satanists "Under Satan", so on and so forth.

[Amnesiac]

they were 'escaping' not the Church of England but the prosecution of their religion and that King Henry (if i remember right) had decreed that any person found worshiping other out of Church of England would be hung or burned for treason. The Country was founded on the prospect of being able to worship your God your way. This in itself being an ironic statement seeing as how the FIRST settlers tried to force their religions on the 'savage' Indians. The country was settled and started under the idea of religion NOT Christianity but religion none the less. The Acts that followed after were to better clarify things that had changed with time. As much as people would like to believe that once rules are set they are unwavering the rules (acts laws, etc) must adapt to the new circumstances which is why the Acts were started.

Technically, the United States was founded because the 13 colonies were irritated by not being represented in British Parliament, which enforced taxes on many of their most popular commodities. Religion wasn't really the driving force behind the creation of the United States, the colonies individually were split between establishing religion and freedom of religion. Some colonies were overtly religious, some were based purely on religious freedom (Rhode Island, Pennsylvania and Maryland specifically). The efforts of Thomas Jefferson and James Madison to explicitly separate religion and government at the Constitutional Convention lead to the laws we have today. Many of the colonies refused to ratify the Constitution until specific freedoms were guaranteed via the Bill of Rights. The reason the United States is as religious as it is today is due to these freedoms.

[Raptor22]

Basically, it does. It refers to idols, higher powers, which is always branched from religion.

The basic meaning of the phrase "Under God" means under the Christian god, because that is the only god named simply "God". If we were a country of Buddhists, it would say "Under Buddah", a country of Satanists "Under Satan", so on and so forth.

Would you be happy if they had the phrase:

"Under a god?"

It doesnt have to be an idol or a higher power. A god is anything that guides you, whether your virtues or conscience, or another person...

[Hollywood]

Would you be happy if they had the phrase:

"Under a god?"

It doesnt have to be an idol or a higher power. A god is anything that guides you, whether your virtues or conscience, or another person...

How many times do I have to say it? The phrase should be removed because it means "Under Christiany", even though it says "Under God".

Yes, a god can be a guiding power, but that is not what it means in the Pledge. Therefore, when you pledge to the Flag, you are pledging to be "Under God" as well. If it said "Under Conscience", it would mean exactly what you are saying, and would support religious freedom, and therefore, can be agreed by the masses.

Because it has the word "God" in it, it is interpreted as a religious god, rather than a conscience. That is the problem.

[danggood]

Honestly i am a catholic person and totally believe in god but the law says separation between state and church and for that reason yes it should be removed except for catholic schools.

[Music.]

doesnt really bother me to be honest

[Greggy]

Don't think it should be removed. We just shouldn't be required to say it. Or be required to say the pledge at all.

[Dive to Survive]

Honestly i am a catholic person and totally believe in god but the law says separation between state and church and for that reason yes it should be removed except for catholic schools.

The separation between state and church is not for the state to tell the church that they don't have a say in government it's so that there doesn't become a law that puts one religion over another.

Because it has the word "God" in it, it is interpreted as a religious god, rather than a conscience. That is the problem.

That depends on who is interpreting it. You can see it as anything else so that's not much of a reason to take it out.

[Peace God]

The separation between state and church is not for the state to tell the church that they don't have a say in government
really? i thought thats exactly what "separation" meant


That depends on who is interpreting it. You can see it as anything else so that's not much of a reason to take it out.
i can also choose to see it as something that i dont want to be associated with

[ray8806]

It should stay in the Pledge.

[ray8806]

The Establishment Clause, the actual law that supports Separation of Church and State, only states that 1) the US Congress cannot support one religion over and 2)Congress cannot have a preference over one religion over another.

As an actual federal law of there must be a desperation of Church and State, there is none. The Establishment Clause is all we have.

With "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, it never defines who that 'god' is. Therefore it isn't breaching the Establishment Clause.

One may say, what about Atheism? Well atheism isn't a religion. It is the denial of a religion. It IS a belief, but not a religion. Therefore again, the US isn't breaching the Establishment Clause.

[Peace God]

Freedom of religion is also freedom from religion.
Why does Atheism have to be an organized and traditional belief system in order for it to get respect?

[dead]

Freedom of religion is also freedom from religion.
Why does Atheism have to be an organized and traditional belief system in order for it to get respect?

Because of people who love to shove there morals and views down others throats.

[xdeviancex]

It was not even in the original draft of the pledge.
"Under God" was added later after.

It should be taken out because this country should be about equality, and the "under god" part suggests that we are all a bunch of Christians. Which is false, because there are other people who aren't, whom we should take account for. I don't like saying "under god" in the pledge because I don't believe in that God. So why do I have to say it? Nevertheless, I do say it, even though I'm lying to myself by saying it.

[Bougainvillea]

It should be taken out because this country should be about equality, and the "under god" part suggests that we are all a bunch of Christians.

I thought that since it didn't really mention which god, it was allowed. I think it stands for what this country is. A mixing pot of different cultures. And freedom to express those cultures, and perform your own religious practices safely without persecution. So really, "Under God" can mean whatever you want it to mean.

[xdeviancex]

I thought that since it didn't really mention which god, it was allowed. I think it stands for what this country is. A mixing pot of different cultures. And freedom to express those cultures, and perform your own religious practices safely without persecution. So really, "Under God" can mean whatever you want it to mean.

Yeah, I know what you mean, but realistically, I'm sure probably about 90% of the people who do say it, think of the Judeo-Christian god. (I used a lot of commas ;P)
And because it causes such a hassle anyways with all these debates and problems, and because not everyone even believes in a God, and as well because this country was not even founded on religion nor was the excerpt added in the mentality that it represents the "mixed culture" that America has, it should be removed.

[Dive to Survive]

really? i thought thats exactly what "separation" meant

Really? It's not. That's ordering people around. Separation is dividing something from another.

[Peace God]

Really? It's not. That's ordering people around. Separation is dividing something from another.
Well if you mean that the state is ordering the church to get out of their affairs then of course.... that's their right because the church is violating the separation. It's not like they are ordering the church to do anything other than that.

[Severus Snape]

"Under god" was added during the opening years of the cold war to differentiate America from the USSR. I don't know why, maybe we wanted to counter their godless communism, but in any case I do not say "under god" when I recite the pledge because I don't believe in god. If other people want to say it, that's fine, but I say the pre-Mcartney, patriotic version of the pledge.

[icililim]

Nope it belongs there.

[ktmay96]

I say it should stay. Its not REALLY forcing a religion on someone. An argument it that your pledging allegiance to God. No, your pledging allegiance to the COUNTRY under God. Its like if you replaced "Under God" with "On Earth". You're NOT pledging yourself to Earth, but to the COUNTRY on earth. And if you don't want to pledge, or don't believe in God, you don't have to say it. You just have to show respect, not for the pledge, but to those who do want to pledge, and that's why people stand. In fact, NOT saying it promotes free excercise of religion because it demonstrates "God" is not part of your religion. Also, taking it out now that it is in, would inhibit the free excercsice clause because it would take away the people who have God in their religion's right to express it because they have the right now, but wouldn't after it was taken out. If it was never in there, it would be fine. But now that it is they shouldn't take it out.

[Dive to Survive]

It should stay, have any of you heard the second verse of the Star spangled banner? After the part that most know, there is a whole verse afterwards. Look it up. It includes God multiple times!

[Kohta]

I think that the Pledge should go back to the 1923 version where it just said "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
Because WE ARE NOT A NATION UNDER GOD. we are a diverse nation of many religions and non religions, some which do not believe in a God! Our nation was not founded on any God, but instead founded for religious freedom and a nation for the people

[Sith Lord 13]

I think that the Pledge should go back to the 1923 version where it just said "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
Because WE ARE NOT A NATION UNDER GOD. we are a diverse nation of many religions and non religions, some which do not believe in a God! Our nation was not founded on any God, but instead founded for religious freedom and a nation for the people

Actually, out nation was founded on God, just not on any specific god.

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

[Sage]

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

America is a pagan nation!

[Sith Lord 13]

America is a pagan nation!

Yep.

[notanorchestra]

I just don't say the Pledge or sing the National Anthem. Since I do not believe in any God, I will not put on any act saying that I do.

[Kohta]

I just don't say the Pledge or sing the National Anthem. Since I do not believe in any God, I will not put on any act saying that I do.

Which is why the "Under God" part should be taken out, because we are all American citizens but we do not all believe in a God.

[Sith Lord 13]

Which is why the "Under God" part should be taken out, because we are all American citizens but we do not all believe in a God.

True, but our forefathers did. The pledge pays tribute for the things that our nation has stood for throughout the years. There are those who believe in states rights over federal jurisdiction, but they still say indivisible.

[Kohta]

True, but our forefathers did. The pledge pays tribute for the things that our nation has stood for throughout the years. There are those who believe in states rights over federal jurisdiction, but they still say indivisible.

Our founding fathers didn't write the Pledge though and I agree with you that the Pledge does pay tribute to what our nation stands for and one of those is religious freedom which "Under God" clearly violates, because we are a nation of Atheists, Christians, Catholics, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Budhists, and many other religions and non religions.

[Bougainvillea]

^
I think it stands for what this country is. A mixing pot of different cultures. And freedom to express those cultures, and perform your own religious practices safely without persecution. So really, "Under God" can mean whatever you want it to mean.

I posted this earlier.