Abortion

[Shadoukun]

The early fetus isn't a human being, and I see no problem killing it off.


Discuss.

[Jamie]

I see no actual problem with it either so long it isn't almost entirely developed as a baby such as 6 + months.

[Magus]

I see no actual problem with it either so long it isn't almost entirely developed as a baby such as 6 + months.

I disagree.

I'd say not after the 12th week. At that time and later it will be near visible to a human figure.

But before that it is not a complete human with full proportion.

Heart is still one and the bones aren't even there. Mind you, bones are soft like shark bones and no tough like ours. The brain and eyes are clear to us.

http://www.babble.com/CS/blogs/strollerderby/fetus2.jpg

[INFERNO]

The early fetus isn't a human being, and I see no problem killing it off.


Nonsense. A fetus has human DNA, is from humans, follows human development and so forth. It is a human. I'll make an analogy to help explain myself. Suppose you're growing a garden of tomatoes. You have a little tomato bud just forming (i.e. human embryo). What do you call it? The tomato bud doesn't randomly get tomato DNA once it's ripened or an adult, it starts off with tomato DNA just as a human embryo begins with human DNA. If the DNA alters, then there may be a mutation but it's still a human nonetheless.

So, while it is a human, it is not a person in the sense of legality or sociology because it cannot interact with other humans in society, it cannot fulfill any roles, it is not bound by any laws, etc... .

Despite this, I do support abortion. If the mother for whatever reason does not want the future baby, then why should she be forced to keep it and endure all the physiological changes, just to end up having something she doesn't want or cannot properly support. I'm a supporter of adoption also and if the mother wants to put it up for adoption instead of abortion, fine by me but if she wants it eliminated asap, then I see no reason why she should not be given that opportunity.

The issue of not supporting abortion when it begins to resemble a human form I find to be something I cannot support. It's one based off emotions because it looks like us. When it doesn't, the argument implies it's fine and so abortion is not supported due to its superficial features that makes us sympathetic towards it. When it's less mature, it's an ambiguous mass but only when it looks like us, then we decide to go against ourselves and try to make it live.

[Shadoukun]

Nonsense. A fetus has human DNA,

My cancerous tumour has human DNA too.

is from humans,

See above.

follows human development and so forth.

Latent development is irrelavent. We don't consider seeds to be trees, or eggs to be chickens.

It is a human.

See answer two.

I'll make an analogy to help explain myself. Suppose you're growing a garden of tomatoes. You have a little tomato bud just forming (i.e. human embryo). What do you call it?

A tomato bud, this is a nonsensical question.

The tomato bud doesn't randomly get tomato DNA once it's ripened or an adult, it starts off with tomato DNA just as a human embryo begins with human DNA. If the DNA alters, then there may be a mutation but it's still a human nonetheless.

Smashing a tomato plant doesn't cause uproar, however.

So, while it is a human, it is not a person in the sense of legality or sociology because it cannot interact with other humans in society, it cannot fulfill any roles, it is not bound by any laws, etc...

Or feed itself, or breath, or any other basic function.

Despite this, I do support abortion. If the mother for whatever reason does not want the future baby, then why should she be forced to keep it and endure all the physiological changes, just to end up having something she doesn't want or cannot properly support. I'm a supporter of adoption also and if the mother wants to put it up for adoption instead of abortion, fine by me but if she wants it eliminated asap, then I see no reason why she should not be given that opportunity.

The issue of not supporting abortion when it begins to resemble a human form I find to be something I cannot support. It's one based off emotions because it looks like us. When it doesn't, the argument implies it's fine and so abortion is not supported due to its superficial features that makes us sympathetic towards it. When it's less mature, it's an ambiguous mass but only when it looks like us, then we decide to go against ourselves and try to make it live.

Yeah, all of that is fine.

[Dive to Survive]

Abortion is wrong and sickening. Abortion doesn't always work! Did you know that? I know a girl who can't even scratch an itch by herself because she has issues with her body because she was supposed to be aborted! It's wrong and terrible!:(

[DaretoFallup]

No no no no no no no..... Everyone alive, their parents chose for them to live.. abortion is sick.. I refuse..One, I was given life. Sure its shit, and I have yet to actually go into a permanant home, but I have a chance now, to make my baby have a good life. Honestly...abortion is ugh...no..

[BeautifulDisaster]

It is a choice that should not be taken away from anyone.
If someone gets pregnant by rape, should they have to keep it?
No.
So, if it's okay to not keep the baby by rape, then it'd be pathetic to say others cannot abort for other valid reasons too.

[2D]

Short answer, yes.

Answer relevant for me that will start more debating: abortion sends babies to God faster.

[INFERNO]

My cancerous tumour has human DNA too.

Was it made by humans intentionally? Was there a mixing of DNA between 2 humans to produce 50% from the father and 50% from the mother? That is what I meant although I didn't think I had to explain it in such detail.


Latent development is irrelavent. We don't consider seeds to be trees, or eggs to be chickens.

But we do consider an adult human and a fetal human to be human, and if they consistantly follow the same pattern of development, even if errors occur, the end result is still human.


A tomato bud, this is a nonsensical question.

Actually it's not nonsensical because you agreed with me. By saying it's a tomato bud, you're acknowledging that the prospective part of the organism will indeed be another tomato. This is a direct analogy to humans; human embryo and fetus to an adult human.


Smashing a tomato plant doesn't cause uproar, however.

True but I never said it did so what is your point?

[Shadoukun]

Was it made by humans intentionally? Was there a mixing of DNA between 2 humans to produce 50% from the father and 50% from the mother? That is what I meant although I didn't think I had to explain it in such detail.

Accidental sex isn't intentional either.


But we do consider an adult human and a fetal human to be human, and if they consistantly follow the same pattern of development, even if errors occur, the end result is still human.

Who is we? I don't consider it to be a 'human being', genetics aside.



Actually it's not nonsensical because you agreed with me. By saying it's a tomato bud, you're acknowledging that the prospective part of the organism will indeed be another tomato. This is a direct analogy to humans; human embryo and fetus to an adult human.

Yes, but it isn't a tomato. Again latent aptitude is irrelevant.



True but I never said it did so what is your point?

This is an abortion debate...

[Dive to Survive]

You guys have valid ideas but what with the rape, what was the girl doing? And how did she get raped? Most 10 year olds dont walk around in the ghetto!

[BeautifulDisaster]

So you don't think it's that common for underage girls to get raped and pregnant from it?
Wow.

[Jess]

Abortion is a woman's right.

End of story.

[Perseus]

You guys have valid ideas but what with the rape, what was the girl doing? And how did she get raped? Most 10 year olds dont walk around in the ghetto!

Some parents rape their children, y'know? Rape occurs the most from people that you know, not some random dude chillin' in the back alley.

[Dive to Survive]

I know that it happens but aborting a child/fetus is murder. Which is illegal and also it seems morally wrong. I know rape happens and nobody likes it but there are consequences to everything. If you get raped or have sex and end up pregnant than you should just have the baby. It's a great thing to bring a child into the world. If you need to, resort to adoption but I think you'll find that abortion is wrong. That, is my view. If you don't like it, that's ok but I'm not trying to make enemies. Everyone has their own beliefs. :)

[CaptainObvious]

I know that it happens but aborting a child/fetus is murder.

Fetuses are not legally or (more importantly) morally people. Killing something that is not a person is, by definition, not murder. Thus, we don't send you to jail for swatting a fly or hunting a deer. The same applies to abortion.

[CuriousDestruction]

sure, let's just kill every fetus within reach. in fact, let's force all women under the age of 20 to get abortions and make all women over 30 get them. you know what? let's just kill off all babies without blonde hair and blue eyes. then we can have a perfect society! HEIL!

i am not against abortion nor am i for it. if someone is to abort a fetus it is a serious decision. not just something you throw away. when you have a child you'll understand.

[INFERNO]

Accidental sex isn't intentional either.

Now you're just doddling. I explained it very clearly and you're finding tiny little errors simply due to poorer wording on my part. The same concept applies for those, so to make it clearer: sex between two humans where the female becomes pregnant OR the female becomes pregnant by artificially impregnation (i.e. sperm from a sperm bank).


Who is we? I don't consider it to be a 'human being', genetics aside.

I explained my reasoning, you haven't explained yours. Why do you consider it to be not a human being but do consider a newborn baby to be a human (assuming you do)?

We represents the people who agree with what I'm saying as I know there are quite a few. But it doesn't matter, I'll use the pronoun I if you feel more comfortable about it.


Yes, but it isn't a tomato. Again latent aptitude is irrelevant.

I never said it was a tomato, it's called an analogy; using different labels for explaining the same concept. The fact that you agreed with this analogy but then disagreed when the label was human to me implies that the concept doesn't translate to other organisms so for some unexplained reason, it's human species-specific. In other words, I demonstrated a clear contradiction you have in the actual concept we're debating.

[Perseus]

I know that it happens but aborting a child/fetus is murder. Which is illegal and also it seems morally wrong. I know rape happens and nobody likes it but there are consequences to everything. If you get raped or have sex and end up pregnant than you should just have the baby. It's a great thing to bring a child into the world. If you need to, resort to adoption but I think you'll find that abortion is wrong. That, is my view. If you don't like it, that's ok but I'm not trying to make enemies. Everyone has their own beliefs. :)

But why force them to have the baby? It isn't their fault that they got knocked up. They had no control of it. And yes, neither does the fetus, but the mother has to endure the pain. A fetus before it is aborted(legally) hasn't a nervous system or anything. Your just stopping that potential, you're not killing anything. Just stopping the possibility of it ever being a person.

[Dive to Survive]

Yeah, but the thing is, the chance of human life, is being ended for the fetus. What could be a wonderful thing, a person, is now, blocked off from ever 'being'.

[2D]

Yeah, but the thing is, the chance of human life, is being ended for the fetus. What could be a wonderful thing, a person, is now, blocked off from ever 'being'.

Or he could be the next Stalin/Hitler/(insert terrible person here).

Your argument is invalid.

[CaptainObvious]

Yeah, but the thing is, the chance of human life, is being ended for the fetus. What could be a wonderful thing, a person, is now, blocked off from ever 'being'.

But that happens all the time. When a married couple not currently expecting decide not to try to have another child, the chance of that yet-to-be-created child is ended equally. Why does it matter that the genetic combination has occurred? Until they're people in some sense more than their genetic membership of our species, they're just developing tissue.

[Dive to Survive]

But arent we all just tissue? A fetus is just still forming. To 2D, theres a chance that anyone could be good or evil. Theres no telling how theyll end up. I'm simply saying that being a person, in itself, is a miracle. Again, we have varying beliefs.

[Peace God]

i see a baby as part of a woman's body until it's, you know..."born" so i believe that she can do whatever she wants with her body
...and when you use a condom or a birth control pill u are also preventing a baby from possibly being born

[Dive to Survive]

But when you abort a fetus you are killing the thing that is on its way to becoming a person. With a condom/birth control youre stopping the fertilization, with abortion youre stopping the person's formation. (I dont know if 'formation' is the right word to use ;) )

[2D]

But arent we all just tissue? A fetus is just still forming.

Yes we are, but we know that. A fetus doesn't. It's not self-aware. At least not right away.

To 2D, theres a chance that anyone could be good or evil. Theres no telling how theyll end up.

Really? I had no idea.

I'm simply saying that being a person, in itself, is a miracle. Again, we have varying beliefs.

Hitler killing all those damn Jews was such a miracle. I know what you mean now.

But when you abort a fetus you are killing the thing that is on its way to becoming a person. With a condom/birth control youre stopping the fertilization, with abortion youre stopping the person's formation.

The principle is still the same.

[Dive to Survive]

Yes we are, but we know that. A fetus doesn't. It's not self-aware. At least not right away.



Really? I had no idea.



Hitler killing all those damn Jews was such a miracle. I know what you mean now.



The principle is still the same.

It doesnt matter if the fetus is aware or not because if you abort it then it will never get to think, ever. Youre using a stereotype, just because Hitler killed a ton of people doesnt mean that everyone will.

[2D]

It doesnt matter if the fetus is aware or not because if you abort it then it will never get to think, ever.

That's what I said. Thanks for clarifying what I already said.

Youre using a stereotype, just because Hitler killed a ton of people doesnt mean that everyone will.

Shit happens.

[Sage]

It doesnt matter if the fetus is aware or not because if you abort it then it will never get to think, ever.

I have, before me, a sketchbook and a pencil. I'm an artist. Let's say I start sketching out a picture. My lines are rough, characters mostly consist of geometric shapes based on what I've learned in anatomical studies, and some things could be worked on, but that's besides the point- It's a sketch. I haven't gone over it with fine ink nor filled in details nor added splashes of color nor signed my name in one corner, but the potential is there. It's a sketch on a page. It could turn into a lot of very amazing things, or it could turn into something mediocre. It really depends on the condition of me, the artist, and the instrument of drawing I have at my disposal. It could be forged out of great inspiration and dedication, or I could have been forced into drawing something I really didn't want to draw for a class at school. But either way, I always have the option to, at any time, rip the page out of my sketchbook, crumple it up, and throw it in the trash. Now, I could do this carefully as to not damage the book, or I could pay a little visit to my friends in the Russian mafia and get seven-foot-tall, muscle-bound goon Vlad to do it for me, who would likely damage or even destroy my entire book. You're essentially proposing that I have to go get Vlad to rip the sketch out of my book before I can finish it instead of allowing me to do it safely.

This is an example of analogy. I don't expect someone with a 7th grade understanding of English literature to process this argument against your 'it'll never have a chance to think' argument.

[Peace God]

But when you abort a fetus you are killing the thing that is on its way to becoming a person. With a condom/birth control youre stopping the fertilization, with abortion youre stopping the person's formation.
same result

[Dive to Survive]

Not exactly the same concept though. Abortion is not to be a birth control

[Sage]

Not exactly the same concept though. Abortion is not to be a birth control

Last time I checked abortion does control a birth. Also, you ignored my post.

[solosarah]

Personally, I suggest they do brain wave scans, if the fetus has thoughts you may not get an abortion if it doesn't its your call. This coming from a girl in an all christian school.

[Sage]

Personally, I suggest they do brain wave scans, if the fetus has thoughts you may not get an abortion if it doesn't its your call. This coming from a girl in an all christian school.

Why? Brain activity does not equate to sentience.

[Dive to Survive]

Last time I checked abortion does control a birth. Also, you ignored my post.

Sorry I ignored it princess

I have, before me, a sketchbook and a pencil. I'm an artist. Let's say I start sketching out a picture. My lines are rough, characters mostly consist of geometric shapes based on what I've learned in anatomical studies, and some things could be worked on, but that's besides the point- It's a sketch. I haven't gone over it with fine ink nor filled in details nor added splashes of color nor signed my name in one corner, but the potential is there. It's a sketch on a page. It could turn into a lot of very amazing things, or it could turn into something mediocre. It really depends on the condition of me, the artist, and the instrument of drawing I have at my disposal. It could be forged out of great inspiration and dedication, or I could have been forced into drawing something I really didn't want to draw for a class at school. But either way, I always have the option to, at any time, rip the page out of my sketchbook, crumple it up, and throw it in the trash. Now, I could do this carefully as to not damage the book, or I could pay a little visit to my friends in the Russian mafia and get seven-foot-tall, muscle-bound goon Vlad to do it for me, who would likely damage or even destroy my entire book. You're essentially proposing that I have to go get Vlad to rip the sketch out of my book before I can finish it instead of allowing me to do it safely.

This is an example of analogy. I don't expect someone with a 7th grade understanding of English literature to process this argument against your 'it'll never have a chance to think' argument.

If you dont expect me to understand it why bother telling me about it? I do understand it and just because I'm younger than you doesnt mean that I dont understand what youre saying or am incapable of thinking for myself. I think its helpful that you used an analogy but I'm sticking with what I beleive. I'm not stubborn but I know what I beleive. I dont expect you to agree with me if you don't want to. :)

[solosarah]

Its mainly for the comfort of the parent, if the parent see's the fetus has a wave pattern they may feel more inclined to keep the baby then to abort it. I know what you mean by not really having thoughts, but its just more for the family.

[Perseus]

Sorry I ignored it princess



If you dont expect me to understand it why bother telling me about it? I do understand it and just because I'm younger than you doesnt mean that I dont understand what youre saying or am incapable of thinking for myself. I think its helpful that you used an analogy but I'm sticking with what I beleive. I'm not stubborn but I know what I beleive. I dont expect you to agree with me if you don't want to. :)

I'm not like trying to call you out or anything, but do you know what his analogy is talking about? I'm just wondering.

[Dive to Survive]

Yeah, its about having the baby which could be hard and "ruing" someone (Vlad from the mafia tearing apart the notebook) or aborting the child-to-be (tearing the page out of the notebook) :)

[Perseus]

Yeah, its about having the baby which could be hard and "ruing" someone (Vlad from the mafia tearing apart the notebook) or aborting the child-to-be (tearing the page out of the notebook) :)

Unless I misinterperted this wrong, it's more about going to some backalley abortionist and shit goes down wrong instead of going to an abortion clinic and it being safe.

[Dive to Survive]

Oh, haha I dont know. I thought it was about aborting or not...hmm... :)

[INFERNO]

Personally, I suggest they do brain wave scans, if the fetus has thoughts you may not get an abortion if it doesn't its your call. This coming from a girl in an all christian school.

If the fetus has brain-wave activity, how does that translate into it having thoughts, at least conscious thoughts? If I'm hooked up to say an EEG and I move my eyes, limbs or even do mental math, there will be brain-wave activity but as you can see, it's not indicative of thoughts. Much of the fetal brain isn't developed, especially the less older areas which are more involved in thought, so you could simply be detecting activation from the more ancestral areas without the fetus having thoughts. Sorry but your idea really doesn't make any sense.

[Tiberius]

Who is we? I don't consider it to be a 'human being', genetics aside.

Seeing as how a fetus in the 3rd trimester has dreams and is fully capable of sustaining it's own life, I'd like to know how you don't consider that a human being.

[Sage]

Yeah, its about having the baby which could be hard and "ruing" someone (Vlad from the mafia tearing apart the notebook) or aborting the child-to-be (tearing the page out of the notebook) :)

Unless I misinterperted this wrong, it's more about going to some backalley abortionist and shit goes down wrong instead of going to an abortion clinic and it being safe.

Jake (DaTrooper) has the right idea.

[Shadoukun]

Seeing as how a fetus in the 3rd trimester has dreams and is fully capable of sustaining it's own life, I'd like to know how you don't consider that a human being.

I wasn't talking about 3rd trimester fetuses. I was talking about Xenomorph fetuses, obviously.

[Dive to Survive]

Jake (DaTrooper) has the right idea.

Sorry I'm not perfect ;) Haha

[INFERNO]

I wasn't talking about 3rd trimester fetuses. I was talking about Xenomorph fetuses, obviously.

Why not just quit dancing around the question and answer why you don't consider a fetus to be a human? It isn't much of a debate with you in this thread when you refuse to give your argument despite others having given their arguments and you come in with little remarks.

[Shadoukun]

Why not just quit dancing around the question and answer why you don't consider a fetus to be a human? It isn't much of a debate with you in this thread when you refuse to give your argument despite others having given their arguments and you come in with little remarks.

I don't think it's a human because it's not. How does one define 'human'?

If you can't survive outside your mother, you aren't your own person, you are merely a part of her. I don't agree with late term abortions without medical justifcation, but abortions as a whole shouldn't be damned. Early abortions isn't killing an individual being. It's closer to removing a conscious-less mass.

We do not define people genetically, or by appearance. Consciousness is all that defines us. We are nothing without it. If you don't properly grasp that on even a basic level, you aren't a person.

[INFERNO]

I don't think it's a human because it's not.

Excellent circular argument, care to give an argument that's not circular and define what you consider a human to be?


How does one define 'human'?

I assume you consider an adult to be a human, so you have your own criteria. I don't want to answer because I'm still awaiting your answer.


If you can't survive outside your mother, you aren't your own person, you are merely a part of her. I don't agree with late term abortions without medical justifcation, but abortions as a whole shouldn't be damned. Early abortions isn't killing an individual being. It's closer to removing a conscious-less mass.

You said a very interesting word in here: person. In these abortion debates, there's a difference between a human and a person. I agree you aren't your own person but I'm not sure if you're making the distinction between a human and a person.


We do not define people genetically, or by appearance. Consciousness is all that defines us. We are nothing without it. If you don't properly grasp that on even a basic level, you aren't a person.

So you've provided your criteria for what a person is but is this the same criteria for an organism to be a human or is that a separate criteria? You're being very vague and ambiguous in your response.

You still haven't explained yourself for the reasons given above so I'm still waiting.

[Shadoukun]

Excellent circular argument, care to give an argument that's not circular and define what you consider a human to be?



I assume you consider an adult to be a human, so you have your own criteria. I don't want to answer because I'm still awaiting your answer.



You said a very interesting word in here: person. In these abortion debates, there's a difference between a human and a person. I agree you aren't your own person but I'm not sure if you're making the distinction between a human and a person.



So you've provided your criteria for what a person is but is this the same criteria for an organism to be a human or is that a separate criteria? You're being very vague and ambiguous in your response.

You still haven't explained yourself for the reasons given above so I'm still waiting.

I was using 'person' to make a distinction from a 'genetic' argument. A fetus is 'human', but it is not a 'person'. I think being a person is what warrants protection.

[Spinder]

You are a human, and you were once a fetus. As we all are, and were. The question of whether or not a fetus is a "human" can only be answered by a debate of what qualities something must possess be considered "human".

The most prematurely born baby that survived was 21 weeks along, a point in pregnancy in which many abortions are still carried out. But, once he came out of the womb, and became "human" in your eyes, if his mother had deliberately killed him, she doubtlessly would have been locked up and convicted for infanticide. So what is so different between an infant who is still inside the womb and one who is not? If he had been still inside the womb like he should have been, it would have been perfectly OK for her to kill him. But why not after he was born? What is it about being still inside the womb that makes one not "human"?

[INFERNO]

I was using 'person' to make a distinction from a 'genetic' argument. A fetus is 'human', but it is not a 'person'. I think being a person is what warrants protection.

Now you've contradicted yourself because just before you said: "I don't think it's a human because it's not". You also mentioned this same thing in your first post in this thread, and both times you used the term "human", not the term "person". Care to explain?

[deadpie]

The thing about abortion is, your just killing a fetus. It has no emotions or feelings, so it's an even lower form than a cockroach. And in that case, if you've ever killed a bug, then your have done something WORSE than abortion because most bugs have a functioning brain, sense of smell, etc.

Who's the monster now?

[Shadoukun]

Now you've contradicted yourself because just before you said: "I don't think it's a human because it's not". You also mentioned this same thing in your first post in this thread, and both times you used the term "human", not the term "person". Care to explain?

Again, I wanted to make the distinction, because I saw my error.

I don't think they are 'people', they are in a sense undoubtedly 'human', I didn't contradict myself. Merely deciding on a different choice of words for the purpose of distinction doesn't 'contradict'. Though, you should take note focusing on semantics doesn't make a very compelling point.


The thing about abortion is, your just killing a fetus. It has no emotions or feelings, so it's an even lower form than a cockroach. And in that case, if you've ever killed a bug, then your have done something WORSE than abortion because most bugs have a functioning brain, sense of smell, etc.

Who's the monster now?

No, just no.

[2D]

Again, I wanted to make the distinction, because I saw my error.

I don't think they are 'people', they are in a sense undoubtedly 'human', I didn't contradict myself. Merely deciding on a different choice of words for the purpose of distinction doesn't 'contradict'. Though, you should take note focusing on semantics doesn't make a very compelling point.

Contradicting yourself while trying to make a distinction between a human and a person is not quite semantics. Nice try though.

No, just no.

Why?

[INFERNO]

Again, I wanted to make the distinction, because I saw my error.

I don't think they are 'people', they are in a sense undoubtedly 'human', I didn't contradict myself. Merely deciding on a different choice of words for the purpose of distinction doesn't 'contradict'. Though, you should take note focusing on semantics doesn't make a very compelling point.


The semantics of "human" and "person" is huge in the abortion debate, in fact, that's what lots of it comes down to so saying it is irrelevant or a weak argument is ludicrous. Unfortunately, when you don't tell people you decide to use a different set of words and it's not that obvious, then that is a fault on your side, not on mine. You made several posts saying they're not human and did also separate "human" from "person" but now you say they're the same. Do you see the confusion for someone who is only able to see what you write and not what you think?

[deadpie]

No, just no.

Could you explain why you disagree? A reason is always nice when we're talking about a fuckin discussion, ya' know.

[Shadoukun]

The semantics of "human" and "person" is huge in the abortion debate, in fact, that's what lots of it comes down to so saying it is irrelevant or a weak argument is ludicrous. Unfortunately, when you don't tell people you decide to use a different set of words and it's not that obvious, then that is a fault on your side, not on mine. You made several posts saying they're not human and did also separate "human" from "person" but now you say they're the same. Do you see the confusion for someone who is only able to see what you write and not what you think?

Could you get back to the actual debate instead of your cute attempts at attacking me? Because, while I'm flattered, I don't care enough about your trivial points to continue to answer them.

Could you explain why you disagree? A reason is always nice when we're talking about a fuckin discussion, ya' know.

The fetus is lower than a cockroach? You're trying too hard or you haven't properly articulated your thoughts. Go read a book.

[Raptor22]

The early fetus isn't a human being, and I see no problem killing it off.


Discuss.

Why isnt a human being? It has a genetic makeup unique from any other living creature on this planet and will develop into a unique individual with a unique personality. Killing that is wrong. I dont see the difference in killing a kid after three months compared to three years...

[INFERNO]

Could you get back to the actual debate instead of your cute attempts at attacking me? Because, while I'm flattered, I don't care enough about your trivial points to continue to answer them.


Fair enough.

Why do you consider a fetus to be a person (in doing so, supporting abortion)?

[Shadoukun]

Why isnt a human being? It has a genetic makeup unique from any other living creature on this planet and will develop into a unique individual with a unique personality. Killing that is wrong. I dont see the difference in killing a kid after three months compared to three years...

Read the rest of the thread, kthx

[INFERNO]

Why isnt a human being? It has a genetic makeup unique from any other living creature on this planet and will develop into a unique individual with a unique personality. Killing that is wrong. I dont see the difference in killing a kid after three months compared to three years...

The issue of Shadoukun saying it's not a human was clarified a few posts up. As for a 3 month old vs. a 3 year old, there's an element that you're missing, and that is the distinction of a human vs. a person. A person has duties, it is bound by laws and so it's a more sociological-legal-philosophical definition. For a 3 year old, it has more duties and is more bound by the law than a fetus, so for these purposes, the 3 year old can be considered a person or at least more person-like.

[SimplyTom]

i dont think abortion is right. I believe that once it is in growing inside you then it is a person.

[Alec75]

i dont believe in abortion, its like killing someone, yes noone knows it and noones gonna care but that baby could have been an important person in life, or a great athlete.

[Shadoukun]

i dont think abortion is right. I believe that once it is in growing inside you then it is a person.

I think that trees are plotting against me.


Now that we've gotten past what we think, can you actually support that claim?
What do you define as 'a person'?

i dont believe in abortion, its like killing someone, yes noone knows it and noones gonna care but that baby could have been an important person in life, or a great athlete.

And the world is coming to a halt without them.

[UndecidedMatter]

i think abortion is right. its not like the kid inside has developed, its not a kid yet.
i believe you only truly are a kid well baby wen you take your first breathe.
I also think that its only right to let a 15 year old that was raped have an abortion.
its not fair to force her to go through with it.
but its the woman carrying the baby that choses.

[deadpie]

The fetus is lower than a cockroach? You're trying too hard or you haven't properly articulated your thoughts. Go read a book.

Why not? The fetus is just some fucking pre-human-pre baby ugly monster that is still developing a brain, legs, shit like that.
A cockroach already has all those features.

[Shadoukun]

Why not? The fetus is just some fucking pre-human-pre baby ugly monster that is still developing a brain, legs, shit like that.
A cockroach already has all those features.

So is an amputee lower than the rest of us?

[deadpie]

So is an amputee lower than the rest of us?

Not as low as a fetus.

[Shadoukun]

Not as low as a fetus.

How you define 'people' is fascinating.

[deadpie]

How you define 'people' is fascinating.

How you attempt to prove me wrong is fascinating.

[INFERNO]

Why not? The fetus is just some fucking pre-human-pre baby ugly monster that is still developing a brain, legs, shit like that.
A cockroach already has all those features.

But there's an issue with time. An adult organism vs. a fetal organism is of course going to have different or differently-developed features, it's hardly a fair comparison, and if it's not a fair comparison, it's pretty pointless. Not to mention, the numerous differences between a cockroach and a human. Both have brains, that's correct, however, the massive differences in neuronal arrangement is hardly suitable for the comparison you're making, especially when the cockroach is an adult and the human is a fetus.

For example, although both organisms have neurons, the cockroach has many giant interneurons, each for different functions in moving different parts (i.e. legs). Humans have only one giant interneuron. Both have brains but what structures are larger and smaller differ, the fact that humans have all cranial nerves while cockroaches lack the last 2 makes a big difference. You cant randomly compare to distinct organisms on such broad spectrums, such as saying they both have "brains, legs, shit like that". Heck, a cockroach is an invertebrate, not a vertebrate.

Although this is kind of off-topic, why is an amputee considered to be lower than adult humans?

[CaptainObvious]

i dont believe in abortion, its like killing someone, yes noone knows it and noones gonna care but that baby could have been an important person in life, or a great athlete.

So? If I choose to masturbate instead of going and impregnating some woman, I have denied a potential person their right to live a life that might have beeen awesome. Why is that not as wrong as abortion? Until the fetus can comprehend the concept of its own life - or at least sustain that life without parasitic bonding to a supporting maternal body - potential to live that life is a ridiculous argument to amke.

[Convergence]

I don't really have a strong opinion on this.
But I'd say if it's after the 12th week of pregnancy, you shouldn't get an abortion.
If you've been raped and don't want to keep the baby, fair enough.
If you've been stupid enough not to use anything and therefore want an abortion, you should be slapped. Abortion is not a form of contreception.
Some people these days seem to think it is.

[Shadoukun]

I don't really have a strong opinion on this.
But I'd say if it's after the 12th week of pregnancy, you shouldn't get an abortion.
If you've been raped and don't want to keep the baby, fair enough.
If you've been stupid enough not to use anything and therefore want an abortion, you should be slapped. Abortion is not a form of contreception.
Some people these days seem to think it is.

This thread was not intended for your opinion. But I'll humour you.


I don't really have a strong opinion on this.
But I'd say if it's after the 12th week of pregnancy, you shouldn't get an abortion.

Why?

If you've been stupid enough not to use anything and therefore want an abortion, you should be slapped. Abortion is not a form of contreception.
Some people these days seem to think it is.

Again, why? Why shouldn't it be used as contraception?



I don't see why you hold an opinion just for the sake of having one, or in an attempt to uphold morals you haven't questioned and which make no sense. If you can't justify your claims, don't make them.

[Convergence]

This thread was not intended for your opinion. But I'll humour you.

This whole thread is full of opinions, though? I gave my opinion, cause I wanted to. Problem? Deal with it.

Why?

At 12 weeks the baby's face is beginning to look more human, even though it is roughly only around 5.4cm long from her crown to her rump and weighs slightly less than 14g. It's liver is making bile and it's kidneys are secreting urine into its bladder. If you prod the womans belly the baby will squirm, although you probably won't be able to feel any movement. Fetal nerve cells have been multiplying rapidly and the neurological connections in its brain are forming.
It sounds wrong to me for someone to destroy a baby at this stage of development.

Again, why? Why shouldn't it be used as contraception?
It's plain lazy and stupid. I don't get how someone would rather terminate a fetus and go through all that stress and pain, instead of taking a bloody pill or using a god damn condom.

I don't see why you hold an opinion just for the sake of having one, or in an attempt to uphold morals you haven't questioned and which make no sense. If you can't justify your claims, don't make them.

Are you happy now, sir?

[Shadoukun]

This whole thread is full of opinions, though? I gave my opinion, cause I wanted to. Problem? Deal with it.



At 12 weeks the baby's face is beginning to look more human, even though it is roughly only around 5.4cm long from her crown to her rump and weighs slightly less than 14g. It's liver is making bile and it's kidneys are secreting urine into its bladder. If you prod the womans belly the baby will squirm, although you probably won't be able to feel any movement. Fetal nerve cells have been multiplying rapidly and the neurological connections in its brain are forming.
It sounds wrong to me for someone to destroy a baby at this stage of development.


It's plain lazy and stupid. I don't get how someone would rather terminate a fetus and go through all that stress and pain, instead of taking a bloody pill or using a god damn condom.



Are you happy now, sir?


You can't justify any of this. :P It's a ton of "I think..."

If I were to say "I think murder is okay, regardless of age" How is my claim any less valid than yours?

This thread is not for your opinions, and in this I mean that your opinions are not justified just because they are infact your opinions. You have provided no justification for your claims, so they basically mean nothing. You say that abortion is wrong at 12 weeks. Why is it wrong? The child's autonomous function is not a sign of being a 'person'. Tape worms essentially have more function than a fetus. Should we preserve them too?

[2D]

You can't justify any of this. :P It's a ton of "I think..."

Sure you can justify it. Why not?

If I were to say "I think murder is okay, regardless of age" How is my claim any less valid than yours?

It's a claim. Plain and simple. It is made more or less valid depending on your beliefs. For some it may be held as morally okay and other may despise it. Oh what a thing relativity is.

This thread is not for your opinions, and in this I mean that your opinions are not justified just because they are infact your opinions. You have provided no justification for your claims, so they basically mean nothing. You say that abortion is wrong at 12 weeks. Why is it wrong? The child's autonomous function is not a sign of being a 'person'. Tape worms essentially have more function than a fetus. Should we preserve them too?

Lawl. You used the same type of comparison Deadpie used which you in turn were against. -10 points

[Convergence]

You can't justify any of this. :P It's a ton of "I think..."

If someone said 'Abortion is wrong because... *gives valid reason*' as opposed to someone who stated 'I think Abortion is wrong because... *gives valid reason*', it's the same god damn thing. They may not be saying I THINK, but the fact that they're saying something about the subject, says the have an opinion on it. I gave you mine, which this thread did NOT say was unacceptable, and I gave you a valid reason behind it due to your whining. It seems to me that you're more interested in pointing out petty little things in your own thread 'cuz lyke ... omg its mai fred!'
Okay, here we go...


If I were to say "I think murder is okay, regardless of age" How is my claim any less valid than yours?
It's a thread and I gave my opinion. Excuse me for not reading through all of the pages to make sure this was okay to do. Anyhow ... I doubt you've even stated that this thread was 'not meant for my opinions.' And even if you did, I'd give it anyway.


This thread is not for your opinions, and in this I mean that your opinions are not justified just because they are infact your opinions.
My opinions are automatically justified cause I'm great. Like Jesus.

You have provided no justification for your claims, so they basically mean nothing. You say that abortion is wrong at 12 weeks. Why is it wrong? The child's autonomous function is not a sign of being a 'person'. Tape worms essentially have more function than a fetus. Should we preserve them too?

I already gav reasons to this in my previous post. Read, please.

[Shadoukun]

Sure you can justify it. Why not?

Well excuse me, I should have said "You haven't"



It's a claim. Plain and simple. It is made more or less valid depending on your beliefs. For some it may be held as morally okay and other may despise it. Oh what a thing relativity is.

Claims are not supported my moral or belief. I mean, in the middle east they beat and follow a very patriarchal way of living. To most of America this would be viewed as 'morally wrong', however can you give any objective reason to damn them? No. So your mroals or beliefs mean nothing. A belief which makes a leap in rational thought it useless in a debate, because then I have to sit here and make an attempt (which I'm not so great at. I'm good at thinking, I'm not good at explaining) to explain it to you.

If someone said 'Abortion is wrong because... *gives valid reason*' as opposed to someone who stated 'I think Abortion is wrong because... *gives valid reason*', it's the same god damn thing. They may not be saying I THINK, but the fact that they're saying something about the subject, says the have an opinion on it. I gave you mine, which this thread did NOT say was unacceptable, and I gave you a valid reason behind it due to your whining. It seems to me that you're more interested in pointing out petty little things in your own thread 'cuz lyke ... omg its mai fred!'
Okay, here we go...

You didn't give a valid reason. You essentially said "I think abortion is wrong because wood is a very hard material" You're free to think abortion is wrong, but if you have no objective reasons for it you have no real ground to talk about it.


It's a thread and I gave my opinion. Excuse me for not reading through all of the pages to make sure this was okay to do. Anyhow ... I doubt you've even stated that this thread was 'not meant for my opinions.' And even if you did, I'd give it anyway.

You and I seem to have a different understanding of debate. I think a friend of mine sums up why using your opinion as justification is flawed better than I could.

http://forums.govteen.com/announcement.php?f=128&a=1197

[2D]

Good job on ignoring the part of my response you couldn't handle. Real classy, man.

[Shadoukun]

Good job on ignoring the part of my response you couldn't handle. Real classy, man.

I ignored the part of your response I didn't feel like looking into to reply.

If you can clarify I'll answer, I suppose.


Also, this is a debate. Count to 10 and calm down before replying. You all approach this in a very emotion-driven sort of way.

[2D]

I ignored the part of your response I didn't feel like looking into to reply.

If you can clarify I'll answer, I suppose.


Also, this is a debate. Count to 10 and calm down before replying. You all approach this in a very emotion-driven sort of way.

Ignoring certain parts of a post simply because one "feels like it" doesn't add anything to your credibility. Which gets into justification. What you were just talking about. Fancy that. :rolleyes:


Also, tone is hard to communicate through text. I was being quite facetious in that post. All in good humor alright? Why so serious?

[Blood]

My veiws on abortion: Its wrong. If its wrong to kill a human being thats survivng on its own outside the womb, then its wrong to kill one that will (in the future) survive on its own.

[Shadoukun]

Ignoring certain parts of a post simply because one "feels like it" doesn't add anything to your credibility. Which gets into justification. What you were just talking about. Fancy that. :rolleyes:


Also, tone is hard to communicate through text. I was being quite facetious in that post. All in good humor alright? Why so serious?

Yeah, I couldn't tell :P


What part did I ignore? I'll address it.


My veiws on abortion: Its wrong. If its wrong to kill a human being thats survivng on its own outside the womb, then its wrong to kill one that will (in the future) survive on its own.

I've already addressed thoughts like this.

[Jean Poutine]

how about this :

no one cares.

the only debate relevent is suicide because it shortens our lifespan.

[Shadoukun]

how about this :

no one cares.

the only debate relevent is suicide because it shortens our lifespan.

And it is proven to me everyday how some of us do not deserve said lifespan.

[2D]

This thread is not for your opinions, and in this I mean that your opinions are not justified just because they are infact your opinions. You have provided no justification for your claims, so they basically mean nothing. You say that abortion is wrong at 12 weeks. Why is it wrong? The child's autonomous function is not a sign of being a 'person'. Tape worms essentially have more function than a fetus. Should we preserve them too?

Lawl. You used the same type of comparison Deadpie used which you in turn were against. -10 points

That.

Deadpie used the same type of comparison (two radically different organisms) and he got shut down. So then you use it? *cough cough*

[INFERNO]

My veiws on abortion: Its wrong. If its wrong to kill a human being thats survivng on its own outside the womb, then its wrong to kill one that will (in the future) survive on its own.

When the human is outside the womb and is a person, then that is where is can be deemed morally or ethically wrong but when inside the womb, it's not a person, it's not a member of society.

[CaptainObvious]

My veiws on abortion: Its wrong. If its wrong to kill a human being thats survivng on its own outside the womb, then its wrong to kill one that will (in the future) survive on its own.

So if I create a machine that takes a sperm and an egg in at one end, and impregnates a woman with the fertilized egg on the other end, 100% of the time without any failures, should that sperm and egg then be considered morally protected?

What something will be is absolutely irrelevant to what it is. If it is not a person with the ability to survive without parasitic dependence on its female host, it's not a member of our moral community that ought to be protected.

I'd love it if someone who argues potential would respond to that thought experiment at some point rather than just stating their opinion and never returning to the thread.

[Hatsune Miku]

It's the mothers choice to get an abortion or not. I don't see it being wrong in any way. Taking care of a child is hard and takes alot of responsibility, some people can't handle it. sometimes it's better off getting an abortion then giving birth to the baby at all.

Simple as that

[mrmcdonaldduck]

is abortion a good thing?

discuss

im for abortion if the mother will be an unloving and abusive one

[Peace God]

im for abortion if the mother will be an unloving and abusive one
but who is it up to to decide whether or not a woman is unfit to be a mother?

[Jess]

If woman wants to have an abortion, let her have an abortion.

[Iron Man]

I don`t agree with abortion. Every new life deserves an equal chance, and if the mother is an unloving one, there is always adoption.

[Jenna.]

It should be the woman's choice, so if she wants one, let her have one. If I got pregnant right now I know I'd have an abortion.

[Jess]

so would I. I would just have it before it fully develops

[nick]

The woman has the choice not to have unprotected sex, or if that happens for some reason then to use the morning after pill. I see abortion as the same as murder, its the taking of a life and I'm against it. There are a few exceptions, I wouldnt expect a woman to carry the baby if it was the result of rape or if there was a genuine doubt if either she or the baby could survive childbirth.

[Malcolm Tucker]

I believe that it's the woman's choice in every case and nothing should stand in the way of that.

[nick]

If woman wants to have an abortion, let her have an abortion.

It should be the woman's choice, so if she wants one, let her have one. If I got pregnant right now I know I'd have an abortion.


I believe that it's the woman's choice in every case and nothing should stand in the way of that.
So what if its an hour before she would go into labour and she changes her mind, is it her choice then? The baby would certainly be capable of independent life unless there were other medical problems. If thats OK then why not an hour after the birth, what's the difference. So she decides she doesnt want it after all - its just the same isnt it?

[Heretic]

Abortion is terrible and anyone who has one is going to hell.

[Jess]

oh so you think a woman that's pregnant as a result of rape and went to get an abortion will go to hell? Does hell even exist?

[Heretic]

oh so you think a woman that's pregnant as a result of rape and went to get an abortion will go to hell? Does hell even exist?

Yes she will, and hell is real. Haven't you read the Bible?

[dead]

Yes she will, and hell is real. Haven't you read the Bible?

No its not. Haven't you took-en science class?

[nick]

I'm not sure that a discussion as to whether hell is real takes this question any further forward. Anyone care to answer my previous point?

[Heretic]

No its not. Haven't you took-en science class?

lolscience. Do not feed the trolls. You guys are terrible at this. Anyway, real debate time now.

I'm not sure that a discussion as to whether hell is real takes this question any further forward. Anyone care to answer my previous point?

No, it's not the same. If you destroy an acorn that will eventually turn into an Oak tree are you destroying that Oak tree? No, not at all. If you destroy a fetus are you killing a human? No. I love analogies.

[nick]

No, it's not the same. If you destroy an acorn that will eventually turn into an Oak tree are you destroying that Oak tree? No, not at all. If you destroy a fetus are you killing a human? No. I love analogies.
You havent answered my point at all there. So a baby an hour before birth is an acorn and not a baby?

[Heretic]

You havent answered my point at all there. So a baby an hour before birth is an acorn and not a baby?

No, I figured a simple "no" was enough to refute your ridiculous thought. Your argument depends on a baby 1 hour before birth being the same as the whateveritscalled at conception. I assure you they are not the same at all.

[nick]

No, I figured a simple "no" was enough to refute your ridiculous thought. Your argument depends on a baby 1 hour before birth being the same as the whateveritscalled at conception. I assure you they are not the same at all.
Calling my question ridiculous is hardly reasoned discussion. So at what point does it cease to be an acorn and become a baby? So far the pro-abortion posters argue that its always the mother's choice - there's no suggestion of any restraint or limit on that.

[Jess]

ah about the baby an hour before birth. I would not get an abortion. that would be terrible, killing the baby an hour before birth. but if it's barely developed, yes

[Heretic]

ah about the baby an hour before birth. I would not get an abortion. but if it's barely developed, yes

oh and I read the Bible but I am not a Christian. not any longer. doesn't the Bible say something about if girl gets raped she has to marry the man that raped her? that's just sick.

That's the OT I think, if that helps. lolololol

Calling my question ridiculous is hardly reasoned discussion. So at what point does it cease to be an acorn and become a baby? So far the pro-abortion posters argue that its always the mother's choice - there's no suggestion of any restraint or limit on that.

Ummm, I'll let you define that since your argument rests solely on the fact that conception = valued life. kthx

[nick]

Ummm, I'll let you define that since your argument rests solely on the fact that conception = valued life. kthx
Total cop out there then. So at some point there's a cross over then, but you cant say where it is. Of course you cant say where it is, that's completely arbitary. Like one second before that point its ok, cut the thing into pieces and flush it down the pan, it doesnt matter, but one second after that point its illegal. What bullshit. Who the fuck is entitled to make those decisions?

[Heretic]

Total cop out there then. So at some point there's a cross over then, but you cant say where it is. Of course you cant say where it is, that's completely arbitary. Like one second before that point its ok, cut the thing into pieces and flush it down the pan, it doesnt matter, but one second after that point its illegal. What bullshit. Who the fuck is entitled to make those decisions?

If you can't say when a fetus becomes a human then your argument is useless, congrats on proving yourself wrong. If I had to hazard a guess it would be when there's notable brain activity. I'm completely bullshitting this right now so excuse me if that's 6 months into the pregnancy. Anyway, way to let your emotions into a debate.

[nick]

If you can't say when a fetus becomes a human then your argument is useless, congrats on proving yourself wrong. If I had to hazard a guess it would be when there's notable brain activity. I'm completely bullshitting this right now so excuse me if that's 6 months into the pregnancy. Anyway, way to let your emotions into a debate.
No, completely wrong.

Its because I cant say when a fetus becomes a human that my argument is right, abortion is wrong its killing another human. There is no cross over point, you're the one that thinks there is, not me, except that you cant say where it is.

[Jess]

okay....what do you think about letting the father having a say in this?

[Heretic]

No, completely wrong.

Its because I cant say when a fetus becomes a human that my argument is right, abortion is wrong its killing another human. There is no cross over point, you're the one that thinks there is, not me, except that you cant say where it is.

So this means you believe that the moment a sperm and an egg become one it is as valuable as a human life?

[nick]

So this means you believe that the moment a sperm and an egg become one it is as valuable as a human life?
Maybe as soon as its implanted, yes. It means I dont believe its possible to determine the point later on at which that becomes the place, not unless that is the point of birth. And the point of my first comment was really that I dont think anyone (or at least very few people) thinks abortion is acceptable right up until the point of birth.

[Obscene Eyedeas]

A foetus if one is to get technical is a parasite until it's born. a mother should have the right to be rid of it. it's her body and her life. abortion is what it is. it is the killing of a parasitic foetus. parasitic foetus does not equal a Human life

[nick]

A foetus if one is to get technical is a parasite until it's born. a mother should have the right to be rid of it. it's her body and her life. abortion is what it is. it is the killing of a parasitic foetus. parasitic foetus does not equal a Human life
So are you too ignoring my question Laura or are you honestly saying its a foetus, and therefore disposable, right up until the moment of birth?

[INFERNO]

is abortion a good thing?

I consider it to be good for the most part. If the mother and/or father have no desire to have a baby or keep the up-coming baby, they should not have to. If the mother was raped, she should not have to raise the seed of her rapist, then look at it every day of the year unless she puts it for adoption. If the mother is suffering from a condition where the fetus will/is dead, the mother is likely to die during childbirth or the fetus is suffering from a known genetic disorder that is very severe and painful, then the mother should be able to adopt.


im for abortion if the mother will be an unloving and abusive one

This would be great if humans could perfectly tell the future of the next 5 or so years but we cannot. If the mother has no prior children, you cant always tell if she will be an abusive mother. Besides, how do you define what is a fit, unloving and abusive mother? If a mother lives in poverty, drinks and smokes, that doesn't suggest she will be abusive, just as a rich mother who drinks and smoke while pregnant cannot show she will be an abusive mother.

[Obscene Eyedeas]

Legally nick you can't do that it's 24 weeks at the highest. besides it still is a parasite until it is born. until the moment you cut the cord

[nick]

Legally nick you can't do that it's 24 weeks at the highest. besides it still is a parasite until it is born. until the moment you cut the cord
I thought we were discussing rights and wrongs here, not legality (which in any case probably varies from country to country). I cant see that unborn child as a parasite. Its not like it asked to be there or has just attached itself from nowhere.

You are then saying that the child could be born, fully healthy, on the delivery table, but as long as the cord is still attached the mother has the right to change her mind and tell the doctors to kill it?

[Camazotz]

It's easier to kill something you can de-humanize. And that's what we do when we call it just a fetus. We look for supporting evidence to prove that it's not a human. Quite frankly, a fetus is not a human. It does not have consciousness, cannot survive on its own, and does not have the qualities that define us as humans.

I think abortions should be allowed to women who cannot safely give birth, care for the child (if adoption is out of the question), or simply cannot take care of the fetus while it's growing. A woman has the choice to decide if she can care for her future child. If she decides that it's not possible and no other alternative can work, I support her decision to abort the fetus.

[Obscene Eyedeas]

I am nick. it is a parasite at that moment. the mothers choice but really you are basing you're argument on scenarios that will never happen. legally she would not be allowed it would be considered murder so she'd give it away. the cord is cut within moments and it becomes a baby normally before it even cries.

[Tnelson]

Well I am completely against it because it is murder, how is sticking a hook into the fetus and ripping it up okay? When the sperm hits the egg that is a life created. So lets say your a mother to a toddler its okay to just go chop the kid up into tiny peaces and throw the kid into the garbage? Its the same thing it's still killing your kid. So in a way i think all mothers that had an abortion without a medical crisis possibility should be charged with murder same with the abortion doctors. Then after my post people will be like that's a little extreme but I'm sorry to say its not. Is it ok just to go out there and kill your kid when they aren't a fetus? why should it be any different when they are?

Camazotz You are really crossing lines. A fetus is the same thing as a Human its just in an early development and leading doctors and scientists have done studies on brain activities in the baby and it turns out that they do think and sometimes even dream. There are no excuses to kill a child unless its a medical danger to the mother but nowadays modern medicine can save almost every baby that may danger the mother. So excuse my last part of the sentence

[Jess]

when the sperm hit the egg it's not a human. it's life but not human. yet

[nick]

when the sperm hit the egg it's not a human. it's life but not human. yet
Sorry to keep repeating the same question. When then?

[Jenna.]

when the sperm hit the egg it's not a human. it's life but not human. yet

Exactly. A fetus is not a human. Human beings must, by definition, be separate individuals. They don't gain the status of human being by living inside the body of another human. Fetuses are also totally dependent on the mother's body to survive. Anybody can take care of an actual living human, but only the mother can take care of the fetus. Therefore, it's not technically a human being. You can try to lecture me about how I'm such a horrible "murderer" but honestly it won't change my opinion so it would be a waste of your time. :rolleyes:

Edit: Plus, even if abortions are made illegal, women will continue to get them anyway. It's much better to provide safer abortions than have women running around secretly and possibly dangerously trying to get them.

[Obscene Eyedeas]

T.nelson i would like to see studies and sources for your claims please. then i will address your points.

nick it becomes human when the cord is cut and it is self sufficient

[Jess]

right, it's not a human until the cord is cut.

[nick]

Exactly. A fetus is not a human. Human beings must, by definition, be separate individuals. They don't gain the status of human being by living inside the body of another human. Fetuses are also totally dependent on the mother's body to survive. Anybody can take care of an actual living human, but only the mother can take care of the fetus. Therefore, it's not technically a human being. You can try to lecture me about how I'm such a horrible "murderer" but honestly it won't change my opinion so it would be a waste of your time. :rolleyes:

Edit: Plus, even if abortions are made illegal, women will continue to get them anyway. It's much better to provide safer abortions than have women running around secretly and possibly dangerously trying to get them.

I'm not lecturing or calling anyone horrible, just asking questions which none of you answer so far except for Laura who admits she thinks its OK to kill the baby after its been born. You say "Fetuses are also totally dependent on the mother's body to survive", but thats only true for some of them. How are you going to draw the line?

[Jess]

I don't think it's ok to kill the baby after it's born.

[Obscene Eyedeas]

once the baby is born cut the cord as an abortion is then invalid. if the child survives give the state or another couple custody.

[Antares]

Merging with the last thread on this

[Insanity Fair]

Exactly. A fetus is not a human. Human beings must, by definition, be separate individuals. They don't gain the status of human being by living inside the body of another human. Fetuses are also totally dependent on the mother's body to survive. Anybody can take care of an actual living human, but only the mother can take care of the fetus. Therefore, it's not technically a human being. You can try to lecture me about how I'm such a horrible "murderer" but honestly it won't change my opinion so it would be a waste of your time. :rolleyes:

Edit: Plus, even if abortions are made illegal, women will continue to get them anyway. It's much better to provide safer abortions than have women running around secretly and possibly dangerously trying to get them.


Even after the baby is born for the first two years of it's life is completely dependent on the mother for survival. The difference is that it's outside of her body and now with the invention of formula anyone can do the job.

[CaptainObvious]

I thought we were discussing rights and wrongs here, not legality (which in any case probably varies from country to country). I cant see that unborn child as a parasite. Its not like it asked to be there or has just attached itself from nowhere.

You are then saying that the child could be born, fully healthy, on the delivery table, but as long as the cord is still attached the mother has the right to change her mind and tell the doctors to kill it?

I'm going to try a fun argumentative tack here because I'd like to see if you've considered the philosophical question. This is not directed specifically at you, but you posted latest:

Everyone here views terminating a fetus as a bad thing, and often people say things like "but the fetus wouldn't want to be killed" or some other appeal to our desire for life. But is that not a point of view indelibly entwined with our being alive and conscious of our separate existence? You think being terminated is bad because it would be for you and any other live human. That's valid. But now imagine that you are not aware of your own existence, had never been, and arguably don't even have the capacity to form the idea. From your perspective, would non-existence be worse? No, of course not, you wouldn't know the difference.

So to argue this way is somewhat inevitable: we're all alive, and unless some of us in here are more miserable than I noticed, I think we'd all prefer to be alive as compared to dead. But we're not fetuses, so that doesn't necessarily translate to their case.

[Zeh Crazy]

I don't think there is anything wrong with abortion. It is the woman's body, and if she isn't ready to have a child (regradless of her being reckless), then she should be the one to make the decision. Pregnancies take tolls on a woman's body. Stretch marks, gained weight, no nutrition left for the woman because the baby takes it all...Especially if the female is a little girl. What if she was raped? You expect her to have that child? And suffer for it?

I would never have an abortion. That's not me. I do believe children are gifts, and albeit hassles sometimes. But I have this calling to nurture another human being anyway. So if I got unexpectedly pregnant, I wouldn't get an abortion. I would discuss it with the father and see what we both wanted, but I would want him to know that in the end, it's ultimately my decision because it's my body.

I don't believe the fetus is a human being. It's not even formed. Just because it has a heartbeat doesn't mean anything. It can't think, or feel.

[Sith Lord 13]

It can't think, or feel.

Actually, it can. Go research fetal development.

[The Ninja]

i think it's the couples or womens choice to get an abortion as long as they're legally doing it.