If fate governs the world...

[Sapphire]

If fate governs the world and you don't actually make any decisions yourself, how can you be judged, rewarded and punished?

[Aspiringanonymous]

I don't believe in morality. Everything which is, is; through the individual's perspective of course, there are the desirable and undesirable, pleasant and unpleasant, but I struggle with the idea of good and evil in the same way that you would in comprehending a world view which eludes the concept altogether.

But of course, most people don't see things that way, because it would make for a rather inefficient and chaos-prone society - since lack of conceptual clarity is always unnerving to the human mind. But that's okay.

I've tried to live with the idea of individual power and free will, believe me, I tried for many years. But in the end, our beliefs are ultimately shaped by that which most naturally fits together in our own consciousness, and I'm comfortable with that now.

[Sapphire]

So much in society hinges on the fact that you will be judged for what you do in life. This can be in this life or in the next. It can be socially, legally, culturally, religiously or whatever.

And it just struck me that people will assert there is no free will and everything is pre-destined while also standing by things based on and built around judgment and punishment/reward (e.g. the judicial system).

[CaptainObvious]

If fate governs the world and you don't actually make any decisions yourself, how can you be judged, rewarded and punished?

You can't. The easy solution to that apparently impossible-to-handle outcome is found by disbelieving the premise that fate governs the world.

[Aspiringanonymous]

And it just struck me that people will assert there is no free will and everything is pre-destined while also standing by things based on and built around judgment and punishment/reward (e.g. the judicial system).
Just out of curiosity; can you give an example?

[CuriousDestruction]

because not everyone believes in fate. especially not those who enforce the law. just because you say fate exists, doesn't make it so.

[BeautifulDisaster]

Very true ^^

[Sapphire]

Just out of curiosity; can you give an example?Not that I can give you right now.

because not everyone believes in fate. especially not those who enforce the law. just because you say fate exists, doesn't make it so.
Why immediately assume that I personally believe in fate? Lol.

I thought it was clear that I was aiming my question at those who do believe in fate.

[CuriousDestruction]

the law doesn't believe in fate. in fact the law believes in nothing but justice.

[simplesuccess]

Actually, despite that a non-human theory/system can not have person beliefs, law is most commonly viewed in accordance to fate.. And the fact that justice itself, isn't always that just. Justice is an idea, an end goal we aim towards, but no matter the decision the outcome of it is always the same, since opposing sides conflict. It's a nice thought, but to have justice in its purist form is not possible.

To believe in a world of no choices and of deterministic beliefs is to lead a dull life. It's a nice way to escape responsibility I guess, but that wouldn't explain why we still feel guilt, responsibility, needs and wants, or joy. And how can one believe that he or she is not responsible for her actions as they are all pre-determined in every way, where they have no say in the matter and choices are simply an illusion to the mind and conscious, so that all actions and events they perceive are caused by an outside cause? What is the cause to these causes then?

[Evermore]

What if someone murdered countless people and responded simply saying, "It was fated for them to die."?

[Magus]

Fate doesn't directly influence our course of life. Fate are just sets of events triggered at recorded time and not every thing we do. And we can even change the fate if we follow another string of fate.

For example: If I go to the bathroom, does that means it is fate?

Probably, it is my fate I joined this place. But I got choices to do with, whether I want to continue posting or no. This is here a fork path; this path will lead to another and that another has another set of events.

Let say my death is already. And how am I going to die is set by me only. Probably I ventured outside a car crash occurred and I got hit by the car. Or, if I just stayed in my bed and a heart Stroke happened.

Nothing is by chance. And we cannot conclude that "chance" is out of the frame of understanding this either.


Of course, some or perhaps many actually do not believe this hypothetical reasoning and what we call it as "Fate".

[CaptainObvious]

Fate doesn't directly influence our course of life. Fate are just sets of events triggered at recorded time and not every thing we do. And we can even change the fate if we follow another string of fate.

For example: If I go to the bathroom, does that means it is fate?

Probably, it is my fate I joined this place. But I got choices to do with, whether I want to continue posting or no. This is here a fork path; this path will lead to another and that another has another set of events.

Let say my death is already. And how am I going to die is set by me only. Probably I ventured outside a car crash occurred and I got hit by the car. Or, if I just stayed in my bed and a heart Stroke happened.

Nothing is by chance. And we cannot conclude that "chance" is out of the frame of understanding this either.


Of course, some or perhaps many actually do not believe this hypothetical reasoning and what we call it as "Fate".

Why should joining this forum be any more predestined than going to the bathroom?

[Magus]

Why should joining this forum be any more predestined than going to the bathroom?

Joining this forum ain't necessary. Going bathroom because it is predestined, I ate food and drunk a lot(These are the precursor).

So I have to pass Tool, if not it will trigger another even and that's a disorder which is called constipation :D

Any ways. I joined a forum because I was rejected with my another forum. This rejection lead to another action. Googling :P

Actually I wrote "Psychosis and teenagers" and I got here. I saw it as a teenage forum. Assuming I am not in the age limit, I would've not joined here.

But since I have a criteria. I joined, nothing predestined. I wouldn't even joined here.

There are cases of doing something that is not predestined, but it is in the path.

I told you, it is a forked and branched paths. I choose something it will lead me to another things.

You got me? No? Me too, I don't know what I am even saying :P

[quartermaster]

The idea of fate, as I understand it, does not mean that you have no control over your decision, it is simply that you have already made your decision.

[Magus]

The idea of fate, as I understand it, does not mean that you have no control over your decision, it is simply that you have already made your decision.

Yes. It is shortened down. Thank you my friend.

I would've just rambled like this guy all day.

http://hillsidelending.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/pic_morpheus.jpg

[Sapphire]

the law doesn't believe in fate. in fact the law believes in nothing but justice.Well, it believes that we all have complete control over our decisions and actions at each space in time (with a few exceptions of course) as well as believing that we can pay for the offenses we've committed against society while, in a lot of cases, being rehabilitated.

What if someone murdered countless people and responded simply saying, "It was fated for them to die."?This is the type of dilemma I'm getting at.

Actually, despite that a non-human theory/system can not have person beliefs, law is most commonly viewed in accordance to fate.. And the fact that justice itself, isn't always that just. Justice is an idea, an end goal we aim towards, but no matter the decision the outcome of it is always the same, since opposing sides conflict. It's a nice thought, but to have justice in its purist form is not possible.How is law "most commonly viewed in accordance to fate"? Lol.

Joining this forum ain't necessary. Going bathroom because it is predestined, I ate food and drunk a lot(These are the precursor).I hardly see how you can call a biological process as fated but not call a decision to join a certain community as fate?
How can you be so certain that one of them was the product of fate and the other wasn't?

The idea of fate, as I understand it, does not mean that you have no control over your decision, it is simply that you have already made your decision.Really? The picture that I've got is that a higher power has set a path out in front of you.

[quartermaster]

W

Really? The picture that I've got is that a higher power has set a path out in front of you.

I'm unfamiliar with this form of fate/predestination; in most cases that I am familiar with, a person has freewill, however, a certain higher being already knows the action you are going to make. Of course, this is not my expertise, I am simply going off of what I've always understood its basic outline to be.

[Magus]

I hardly see how you can call a biological process as fated but not call a decision to join a certain community as fate?
How can you be so certain that one of them was the product of fate and the other wasn't?

Why not? What's the hurdle in it.

What I said is a Biological process is not fated but already made its course.
Joining of community!! ARRRGGGGGHHHH!!!

You know. My thinking is tangled and I can not undo it.

[Sapphire]

Why not? What's the hurdle in it.

What I said is a Biological process is not fated but already made its course.
Joining of community!! ARRRGGGGGHHHH!!!

You know. My thinking is tangled and I can not undo it.
How can it be predestined but not fated? Lol.

I still can't see how you can be so certain that going to the toilet is fated but the decision to join a community isn't.

[Magus]

I still can't see how you can be so certain that going to the toilet is fated but the decision to join a community isn't.

As our good friend quartermaster said. It is because the choice we already made.

When I ate ton of fruits, I expect a heavy bowel movement. So I am in this way fated that I visit the bathroom and probably not. There is a probability I won't.

Because I choose not to go bathroom. But this will put out another branching of strings of fate.

I end up in the hospital.

Wait.....I am my self not getting it this. Give me a time will yah!

[Sapphire]

I'm not asking why you think that going to the toilet is fated.
I'm asking: If only some things are predetermined, how can you distinguish at all between things which were predetermined and things which were not?

[Magus]

I'm not asking why you think that going to the toilet is fated.
I'm asking: If only some things are predetermined, how can you distinguish at all between things which were predetermined and things which were not?

You wrote bad in the some kind of exam. You can easily know what kind of scores you will get on the result day. << Easy. Not a chance if you fail.

It is your fate, no? But if you did good in the same exam, you expect good result and you got it. This is not a "Chance". These are predetermined, because you have chosen what to do.

There are what I call "Blind Fate" not is not similar to "Blind faith" << So don't mix up.

"Blind Fate" is something we don't know if it will occurs, but it does. But it will happens somewhere in the future course of life.

Chance, nothing chance. There are precursors who governs events.

[Aspiringanonymous]

If only some things are predetermined, how can you distinguish at all between things which were predetermined and things which were not?
To me, the force of predestination is like a box which confines the individual - one's metaphysical limitations. However, it is possible to roam freely within the box. Most of the time, the small amount of breathing space makes little difference in the long run, but other times the difference can be substantial.

At unsuspecting forks in the road, there may exist a possibility to choose out of pure free will - I'm sure it does exist, that state of mental and psychological clarity that is unaffected by any inclination to instinctively react - but even so, the paths ahead - including any other forks that await - have already been laid out.

Life, then, is approached as a process of discovery, rather than creation.

Does that make sense?

[Magus]

To me, the force of predestination is like a box which confines the individual - one's metaphysical limitations. However, it is possible to roam freely within the box. Most of the time, the small amount of breathing space makes little difference in the long run, but other times the difference can be substantial.

At unsuspecting forks in the road, there may exist a possibility to choose out of pure free will - I'm sure it does exist, that state of mental and psychological clarity that is unaffected by any inclination to instinctively react - but even so, the paths ahead - including any other forks that await - have already been laid out.

Life, then, is approached as a process of discovery, rather than creation.

Does that make sense?

To me, it is clearer than the water of a running brook.

Sure, as I said. The road forks, and branches out. It is our choices is what weaves our fate. Our fate is by our choices.

Not some Book God made and written everything by him.

I am writing this, does this means God wrote what I am to preform? No, it is what I chose to do and this is fate.

This is my belief somehow, even if we are controlling our current events we are bound to meet major blank points. These are events which is not set by our will but the will of other.

[Sapphire]

You wrote bad in the some kind of exam. You can easily know what kind of scores you will get on the result day. << Easy. Not a chance if you fail.

It is your fate, no? But if you did good in the same exam, you expect good result and you got it. This is not a "Chance". These are predetermined, because you have chosen what to do.

There are what I call "Blind Fate" not is not similar to "Blind faith" << So don't mix up.

"Blind Fate" is something we don't know if it will occurs, but it does. But it will happens somewhere in the future course of life.

Chance, nothing chance. There are precursors who governs events.That hasn't actually answered my question.
I want to know how you personally distinguish between what is fated and what is just "in the path".
You have given examples of what you claim to be fated (going to the toilet) and what you claim to just be "in the path" (joining a new community) but no explanation as to how this distinction can be made.

To me, the force of predestination is like a box which confines the individual - one's metaphysical limitations. However, it is possible to roam freely within the box. Most of the time, the small amount of breathing space makes little difference in the long run, but other times the difference can be substantial.

At unsuspecting forks in the road, there may exist a possibility to choose out of pure free will - I'm sure it does exist, that state of mental and psychological clarity that is unaffected by any inclination to instinctively react - but even so, the paths ahead - including any other forks that await - have already been laid out.

Life, then, is approached as a process of discovery, rather than creation.

Does that make sense?Ok, I understand that.
But the whole thing just seems to take too much responsibility away from the individual.
I mean, won't many people see it as a cop-out excuse as to why they can't be held accountable for knowingly spreading HIV or not helping others in need?

This is my belief somehow, even if we are controlling our current events we are bound to meet major blank points. These are events which is not set by our will but the will of other.
Whose will if not ours or the will of a deity?

[overcome.]

The beliefs I have are ever so strongly related to fate and karma. I'd even say that I live my life by them both, amongst a few other things. Everybody to their own, I wouldn't go out of my way to enforce my opinions or personal beliefs on anybody else.

In terms of being judged and perceived by others, yeah, that'll be fate. If I'm judged badly for doing that's 'bad', that could be the kick I need to change something and move into the right direction so to speak. I'd view that as fate, as a learning experience. The thing with fate, is that I never regret anything, as everything I've been through to this day have been life lessons of some level of importance.

[Magus]

That hasn't actually answered my question.
I want to know how you personally distinguish between what is fated and what is just "in the path".

You have given examples of what you claim to be fated (going to the toilet) and what you claim to just be "in the path" (joining a new community) but no explanation as to how this distinction can be made.

Are you debating or you just can't understand this hypothesis?

Firstly, we don't know what's fated until what happens to us.

For example: I am fated to write here, how? Because you want a solid answer and I am to give you one, right? This is a what you want to call a fated event.

What in the "path" is something that is going to happen in an event. And when it is occurs we call it fate. Ever heard of "you make your own fate"

I made an example, and it is quite clear. Let see, try eating lot of roughages and lots of fruit. After an hour, where will you end up? Bathroom, no?

And how I joined this place was already set by a precursor. Which is I did something, got me banned, left the place and went looking for forums and decided to join.

===========================
Whose will if not ours or the will of a deity?

You get HIV, is it your will? No, it isn't your will to get it, but someone else did to you.

Deity? Are we inducing Gods and Demon's Devils in this debate now?

This is a theistic view on how God interferes with fate.

Ok. Let say, our Great God Yahweh is the one who decides what our major life will be, how will it go and how will diverse in its branches. And he gave us free will in that. He set when we will be born after getting our souls and when we will die.

And how our "will" will be included to us.

For example

you are out driving /-------------------------------------{1}
You went to the market /-------------------------------------{2}
------------------------()--------------------------------------*
|
At home ----------------+------------------------------------{3}


|Your life time--------------------------------------------------|

1 - Died by a car accident, killed by a car theft etc
2 - Got killed by a Robbers, fall of from a high place and etc
3 - Died out of heart attack, house burning and etc

*you die here.
() Joints and point blanks.
{} How you will die.


Got me?

That's not possible and a minute matter if you believe in no deity and it is not taken into accounts.

That's all I can say for now.

[Sapphire]

The beliefs I have are ever so strongly related to fate and karma. I'd even say that I live my life by them both, amongst a few other things. Everybody to their own, I wouldn't go out of my way to enforce my opinions or personal beliefs on anybody else.

In terms of being judged and perceived by others, yeah, that'll be fate. If I'm judged badly for doing that's 'bad', that could be the kick I need to change something and move into the right direction so to speak. I'd view that as fate, as a learning experience. The thing with fate, is that I never regret anything, as everything I've been through to this day have been life lessons of some level of importance.
Ok, let's see if I understand where you are coming from.
You believe in fate (events, actions etc already laid out in front of us) while also believing in the free will to independently learn from our experiences and in karma (do good and good will be done to you).
Do you believe in these to moderate degrees (adhering to them as separate beliefs in some circumstances but not others)?

As for you, Faris, giving me more examples is not the way to answer my question. I have been asking you to explain a distinction you have made very readily and off your own back. Each time you just give me examples of things you deem to be fated and things you deem to be in the path.
I doubt you properly understand the concept you are talking about since when we completely understand something we are able to explain it effectively and clearly.

When I asked this "Whose will if not ours or the will of a deity?" I wanted to know who/what you were referring to as having the ability to control events in our lives (other than ourselves).
Maybe this time you will actually answer...