Iranian President Calls 9/11 a Lie

[Antares]

TEHRAN, Iran – Iran's hard-line President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Saturday called the official version of the Sept. 11 attacks a "big lie" used by the U.S. as an excuse for the war on terror, state media reported.
Ahmadinejad's comments, made during an address to Intelligence Ministry staff, come amid escalating tensions between the West and Tehran over its disputed nuclear program. They show that Iran has no intention of toning itself down even with tighter sanctions looming because of its refusal to halt uranium enrichment.
"September 11 was a big lie and a pretext for the war on terror and a prelude to invading Afghanistan," Ahmadinejad was quoted as saying by state TV. He called the attacks a "complicated intelligence scenario and act."
The Iranian president has questioned the official U.S. version of the Sept. 11 attacks before, but this is the first time he ventured to label it a "big lie."
In 2007, New York officials rejected Ahmadinejad's request to visit the World Trade Center site while he was in the city for a U.N. meeting. The president also sparked an uproar when he said during a lecture in New York that the causes and conditions that led to the attacks, as well as who orchestrated them, still need to be examined.
At the time, he also told Iranian state TV the attacks were "a result of mismanaging and inhumane managing of the world by the U.S," and that Washington was using Sept. 11 as an excuse to attack others.
He has also questioned the Sept. 11 death toll of around 3,000, claiming the Americans never published the victims' names.
On the 2007 anniversary of the attacks, the names of 2,750 victims killed in New York were read aloud at a memorial ceremony.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100306/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_iran



Idk about anyone else but I agree with him...at least for the fact that there are things that the government isn't telling the 100% truth about

[CuriousDestruction]

i find it hard to even discuss this, whether it's true or not, since this is the same man who denies the holocaust occurred.

[Kahn]

*Sigh*.. It was not a lie. The fact that a countries citizens thinks this type of tragedy is an act, and a lie. I am not saying there can't be doubt in some scenarios but something to this extent shouldn't be questioned. It was a sad even in American history, and we all must think about it. Sure we had possibly the worst.. no. We had the worst president in office at the time, but that is the reason why we were attacked. We could've stopped this with the proper safety at airports, but we didn't and this happened.

With this coming up I would just like to know. Where were you when this happened?

[Evermore]

I only remember bits and pieces of it. I remember school being canceled. My mom was freaking out because we had a military base in a nearby town so we were going to be next or something like that. I remember talking to my grandparents to the first time because my mom was worried about them.

It's fucked that they would say that it didn't happen. This was only a few years ago! We have it marked on our calendars!

[CaptainObvious]

Ahmadinejad is a fucking idiot. What a shame this increasing polarization is... one of the largest vigils that occurred worldwide after September 11th was in Tehran.

[Kahn]

Ahmadinejad is a fucking idiot. What a shame this increasing polarization is... one of the largest vigils that occurred worldwide after September 11th was in Tehran.

Him being elected was rigged. The whole country protested it.

EDIT: Not the whole country.. But the majority.

[Magus]

Iran? BUWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!



"STRUGGLE TILL VICTORY"



BLA Member has spoken.

[DoveGreySands]

Yet more evidence that he is an idiot

[Strength]

i dunno. i dont agree with everything he says but i support him in some of his ideology. mainly in regards to his anti Zionism.

[Apparitions]

I hate Ahmadinejad and his regime (which is basically a dictatorship masquerading as something else), he is dangerous and a threat to any peace there is in the world. Him coming out with these outbursts shows the lack of respect he has for the victims of 9/11 and their families. I have seen no proof that says that 9/11 was a 'lie' and until I do then I will believe what I have heard and read. Also, him trying to get nuclear weapons (that is what he is doing, energy my arse) is just going to piss the West and Israel off more. In the very unlikely event that they do make a nuke and use it on Israel or a US/UK/NATO base nearby is just going to lead to their annihilation. Good luck to him. He is an idiot. It would make my year if he and Kim Jong-Il (the North Korean dictator) were slotted. Anyone know any assassins to do this?

[Iron Man]

That stupid motherfucker! 2000+ of our people were killed by the Middle East's barbaric, extremic Muslim al-Queda organization. How can he deny that something happened if he wasn't there? He can't say jack shit.

[Apparitions]

That stupid motherfucker! 2000+ of our people were killed by the Middle East's barbaric, extremic Muslim al-Queda organization. How can he deny that something happened if he wasn't there? He can't say jack shit.
Because he is racist and blinded by his hate for the West and Jews. Fuck him.

[Jess]

Yeah he is just an idiot

[Zazu]

Don't like the gut but I agree with him though - 9/11 was a terrorist act committed by the US government on their own people. The main argument I see against this is 'well why would they willingly let their own people die / kill them?' - surely if the US cared that much about the life of their own citizens then they wouldn't be sending them to 'war'. Also, people don't seem to realise that politics = full of people with no humanity and full of liars. World leaders would happily kill whoever they need to if it were to their own major advantage, I don't see why people won't accept this.

[Tiberius]

It's not even worth discussing. It's all a bunch of stupid idle speculation on what may or may not be the truth.

[Perseus]

Don't like the gut but I agree with him though - 9/11 was a terrorist act committed by the US government on their own people. The main argument I see against this is 'well why would they willingly let their own people die / kill them?' - surely if the US cared that much about the life of their own citizens then they wouldn't be sending them to 'war'. Also, people don't seem to realise that politics = full of people with no humanity and full of liars. World leaders would happily kill whoever they need to if it were to their own major advantage, I don't see why people won't accept this.

Umm...?
When Pearl Harbor was attacked, we engaged in war. Well, that must have been bad because so many people died in the war, even though many people voluntarily signed up to fight the Japanese, OMGosh, you guise.

[Tiberius]

Don't like the gut but I agree with him though - 9/11 was a terrorist act committed by the US government on their own people. The main argument I see against this is 'well why would they willingly let their own people die / kill them?' - surely if the US cared that much about the life of their own citizens then they wouldn't be sending them to 'war'. Also, people don't seem to realise that politics = full of people with no humanity and full of liars. World leaders would happily kill whoever they need to if it were to their own major advantage, I don't see why people won't accept this.

Are you saying that the American government killed over 2,000 American citizens for shits and giggles? I mean, excuse me?

[Zazu]

Are you saying that the American government killed over 2,000 American citizens for shits and giggles? I mean, excuse me?

I believe they killed / murdered them for their own monetary and political gain.

[Ryhanna]

I think it was orchestrated by the US government.
So many holes in the story and they had to have a solid reason to invade Iraq and Afghanistan to get their oil and stuff. Not to say that Bin Laden didn't have a hand in it, but I think he's just a pawn to take the blame for it all.

[Perseus]

I think it was orchestrated by the US government.
So many holes in the story and they had to have a solid reason to invade Iraq and Afghanistan to get their oil and stuff. Not to say that Bin Laden didn't have a hand in it, but I think he's just a pawn to take the blame for it all.

What are these holes that you speak of, if you don't mind me asking.

[Antares]

Him being elected was rigged. The whole country protested it.

EDIT: Not the whole country.. But the majority.

Bush being elected wasn't 100 percent either...
the "majority" of the country rejected it too.
Whats the difference?


I personally agree to some extent with Ah...jad :P

I think that the government is holding some vital information from us...in other words lieing to us.

It wouldn't be the first time.

For instance, how can a building that was never impacted fall?

[Ryhanna]

What are these holes that you speak of, if you don't mind me asking.

Research it lol
A lot of things don't add up.
Lots of youtube videos on the idea, don't know if they're actually true or not, no one does. But I believe the US government at least knew it was going to happen.

[Perseus]

Research it lol
A lot of things don't add up.
Lots of youtube videos on the idea, don't know if they're actually true or not, no one does. But I believe the US government at least knew it was going to happen.

Nah, man. I don't feel like researching stuff since you know of these holes in the attack and you can tell me.

[Tiberius]

I believe they killed / murdered them for their own monetary and political gain.

....what political and/or monetary gain came out of that? Why would ELECTED POLITICIANS who know that they can't trust anyone kill over 2,000 of their people for corrupt purposes?

[Perseus]

....what political and/or monetary gain came out of that? Why would ELECTED POLITICIANS who know that they can't trust anyone kill over 2,000 of their people for corrupt purposes?

I agree with Chris, there isn't anything to gain for hiring a bunch of (assuming a different role, here) mercenaries to run into a bunch of buildings. I don't think a sane person would hijack a plane into a building unless they had some legit reasons.

[Raptor22]

TEHRAN, Iran – Iran's hard-line President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Saturday called the official version of the Sept. 11 attacks a "big lie" used by the U.S. as an excuse for the war on terror, state media reported.
Ahmadinejad's comments, made during an address to Intelligence Ministry staff, come amid escalating tensions between the West and Tehran over its disputed nuclear program. They show that Iran has no intention of toning itself down even with tighter sanctions looming because of its refusal to halt uranium enrichment.
"September 11 was a big lie and a pretext for the war on terror and a prelude to invading Afghanistan," Ahmadinejad was quoted as saying by state TV. He called the attacks a "complicated intelligence scenario and act."
The Iranian president has questioned the official U.S. version of the Sept. 11 attacks before, but this is the first time he ventured to label it a "big lie."
In 2007, New York officials rejected Ahmadinejad's request to visit the World Trade Center site while he was in the city for a U.N. meeting. The president also sparked an uproar when he said during a lecture in New York that the causes and conditions that led to the attacks, as well as who orchestrated them, still need to be examined.
At the time, he also told Iranian state TV the attacks were "a result of mismanaging and inhumane managing of the world by the U.S," and that Washington was using Sept. 11 as an excuse to attack others.
He has also questioned the Sept. 11 death toll of around 3,000, claiming the Americans never published the victims' names.
On the 2007 anniversary of the attacks, the names of 2,750 victims killed in New York were read aloud at a memorial ceremony.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100306/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_iran



Idk about anyone else but I agree with him...at least for the fact that there are things that the government isn't telling the 100% truth about

You are ridiculous. 3000 Americans died and you think that it was an inside job. What the hell? Are you one of those crazies that believe we never landed on the moon? A believer in the train worker on the grassy knoll that shot JFK?

Do you also agree with Ahmadinejad that the Holocaust never happened?

[Antares]

....what political and/or monetary gain came out of that? Why would ELECTED POLITICIANS who know that they can't trust anyone kill over 2,000 of their people for corrupt purposes?

Why is the sky blue?

Why do we have gay politicians advocating for gay separation?

Why is the question.

They obviously won't tell us...thats why we gotsta find out!

Probably won't happen because they can legally keep things secret for years (speaking of, Bush was very keen on that...)

[CaptainObvious]

For instance, how can a building that was never impacted fall?

This has been amply explained.

Seriously, people who are skeptical of 9/11 make me facepalm.

[deadpie]

I think he's trolling. He said the same thing with the holocaust.

[Kahn]

First off, when 'Pearl Harbor' first happened, people created controversy over that to. People claimed that we staged this just so we can declare war on the Axis nations and join in the fight. Well, we have a quite large amount of evidence to support that it wasn't staged, and it was real. Like I said before, the fact that people challenge national tragedy is sad. It happens, but people don't trust the government so much that they blame them for it, not the real enemy.

Now 9/11 has happened and we still have controversy over it. If Bush in fact did stage this why the hell wouldn't he act to it right away? Doesn't he care? He was the fucking President. He has to have some love for his country. Second, has anyone ever heard of fucking checks and balances? You know, the thing that stops things like this from happening? Making sure one branch doesn't destroy it's own country? Thirdly. There are so many theories not one has been able to even nationally challenge what really happened. There are even theories the devil did this.

[Tiberius]

Why is the sky blue?

Why do we have gay politicians advocating for gay separation?

Why is the question.

They obviously won't tell us...thats why we gotsta find out!

Probably won't happen because they can legally keep things secret for years (speaking of, Bush was very keen on that...)

...because a bunch of crazy Muslims hijacked some planes and ran them into buildings. That's why.

[BeautifulDisaster]

Well then, come over here and find our twin towers 'cuz doggonit, we must have misplaced them!
(Said by my American best friend when he heard this title. Thought it was hilarious.)

[Kahn]

Your really think all of the government allowed this to take place? The Judicial, Legislative, and Executive branches all allowed this? All of the politicians? They all agreed?

[Raptor22]

Your really think all of the government allowed this to take place? The Judicial, Legislative, and Executive branches all allowed this? All of the politicians? They all agreed?

Oh yes because Al Queda gave them ample warning ahead of time...

Osama Bin Laden personally called GWB and told him what was up.

Get real, we had no fucking clue it was going to happen and some crazy fuckin muslim fanatics wanted to kill some infidels and get 72 virgins. Its not much more complicated than that...

[Kahn]

Oh yes because Al Queda gave them ample warning ahead of time...

Osama Bin Laden personally called GWB and told him what was up.

Get real, we had no fucking clue it was going to happen and some crazy fuckin muslim fanatics wanted to kill some infidels and get 72 virgins. Its not much more complicated than that...

Did you read my above post? It was much more elaborate, and they did not do this for themselves. They thought they were doing it for Allah (Their God). They thought they were doing the right thing. They were not doing it for 72 virgins.

[Ryhanna]

Nah, man. I don't feel like researching stuff since you know of these holes in the attack and you can tell me.

It's not so much the holes in the attacks as it is the story.
I'll get back to you with more...
Im not saying that it's a lie or that never happened, just that parts of it don't make sense.

[Antares]

This has been amply explained.

Seriously, people who are skeptical of 9/11 make me facepalm.

...because a bunch of crazy Muslims hijacked some planes and ran them into buildings. That's why.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that things in almost all major US events don't add up.
9/11 isnt diffferent.


And chris...wow. Great "point". Doesn't even make any sense in relation to what I said or what you said.

You need to let out some of this repression against muslims and whoever else.

[Ryhanna]

I don't see why people just trust everything they're told. I mean, the government is just like anything else and they will lie from time to time (cough)
If someone says that they've never lied in their life then they're more than likley lying to you lol.

[Kahn]

I don't see why people just trust everything they're told. I mean, the government is just like anything else and they will lie from time to time (cough)
If someone says that they've never lied in their life then they're more than likley lying to you lol.

Well. Maybe because they are our fucking government? They are not like everything else. They run the country. The cannot just lie to us about something this big. The reason why it will live in infamy is because it was BIG. It was the largest terrorist attack in history, and people contest it. They will get no where. It is a hopeless battle.

Do you know how many people were against Bush in government? If Bush had actually done this they would've handed over evidence that he had done this. Sadly though there isn't enough evidence. Oh, he bribed everyone in government didn't he? Oh, everyone was scared he would crash two planes into their house?

You are an idiot if you believe the theorists. How do you know they aren't lying to you?

[Tiberius]

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that things in almost all major US events don't add up.
9/11 isnt diffferent.


And chris...wow. Great "point". Doesn't even make any sense in relation to what I said or what you said.

You need to let out some of this repression against muslims and whoever else.

You asked why and I gave you an answer. What's so wrong about that?

[Ryhanna]

I don't believe the theorists, I believe that the government isn't telling everything they know. C'mon, how many Presidents (who, by the way run the country) have lied their way into office. A few, actually. People lie all the time, and the government isn't any different. Sometimes they don't have to lie, just avoid giving a direct answer. I don't live in the US, so tell me, has the US gov ever actually come out and said "no, we didn't do it."? Because if they have then I'll change my mind, if not then Im sticking to the thought that they at least knew it was going to happen.

[Kahn]

I don't believe the theorists, I believe that the government isn't telling everything they know. C'mon, how many Presidents (who, by the way run the country) have lied their way into office. A few, actually. People lie all the time, and the government isn't any different. Sometimes they don't have to lie, just avoid giving a direct answer. I don't live in the US, so tell me, has the US gov ever actually come out and said "no, we didn't do it."? Because if they have then I'll change my mind, if not then Im sticking to the thought that they at least knew it was going to happen.

No. The Government and the People are different. The Government is a system that has choices chosen by many people. People however are simply people. They make their own choices.

Government also has this thing. It's something we like to call checks and balances. It helps prevent things like this from happening.

They don't need to come out and say "No we didn't do it." Do you know why? Because the Government DIDN'T do it. And, I am not for sure, I think that we had gotten a video a few years before warning us of another attack. But who knew it would be this large scale? Unless they got details about when, and how big it would be when it happens.

[Antares]

Why would ELECTED POLITICIANS who know that they can't trust anyone kill over 2,000 of their people for corrupt purposes?
...because a bunch of crazy Muslims hijacked some planes and ran them into buildings.
Why is the sky blue?
...because a bunch of crazy Muslims hijacked some planes and ran them into buildings.
Why do we have gay politicians advocating for gay separation?
...because a bunch of crazy Muslims hijacked some planes and ran them into buildings.

[Ryhanna]

But how do you know the government doesn't know anything more than they tell us unless they say they don't? You can't possibly know for sure that they had NO intelligence of it happening before September 11, 2001. I'm pretty sure the CIA said they had gotten threats but didn't act against it because they didn't think it was serious. (Im pretty sure I've heard that, not 100%)

[Kahn]

I'm finished. We started by arguing that the Government was lying. Now you are beginning to just sound stupid.

Of course they had some, but nobody knew it would be this large scale. Plus the threat they did get was a few years ago so everyone probably just ignored it.

[Ryhanna]

I'm not arguing. Im just saying that I don't think the US government is telling everything they know about it :)
Im not saying THEY did it for sure, of course it was done Bin Ladens cronies, no doubt about that. Im just not convinced the gov. is telling the whole truth about it.

[Kahn]

I think it was orchestrated by the US government.
So many holes in the story and they had to have a solid reason to invade Iraq and Afghanistan to get their oil and stuff. Not to say that Bin Laden didn't have a hand in it, but I think he's just a pawn to take the blame for it all.

Did you even read your first post?

Bull shit you weren't arguing.

[Ryhanna]

Did you even read your first post?

Bull shit you weren't arguing.

Yeah, I read my first post. I've changed my mind since then. I wasn't arguing actually, I was responding to your arguments :)
and pointing out that you don't know what the government is or is not capable of. I'm sorry, but I just don't believe the governments telling everything. End of our discussion bubbles. I see what your saying, and I understand it, but in my mind it doesn't make sense.

[Kahn]

I, in fact, do know what government is capable of. You have no clue how much I know about Government.

Sure, they don't want to tell us. But why would the need to tell us? It's happened already and we might've been able to stop it but the chances are low. Sorry. They don't really need to release any information on what happened. What will it help?

[Ryhanna]

Ok, so maybe you know what the government is capable of.
If they know something then they should tell us. It's honesty, and you told me the government doesn't lie. If they're keeping it from us, why? It could help prevent it from happening again.

[Magus]

I think you guys need to watch some real and authenticated documentary movies and get the facts straight.

I don't think that some unorganized Extremist able to do what they did to the "Strongest Country" in the world. And especially when they specialize in aeronautics. Impossible some guy just fly in an hijacked airplane in the U.S Space border.

And do not neglect the Pentagon.

And remember that Ahmadi Nejad is a Shi'ate. And especially Iranian Shi'ate hates Sunni extremist like Taliban and "The Base".

That's a reason why you hear in news that some crazy guy in Iraq blasted himself amidst innocent people. They are the major Sect of Islam ripping and killing one another.

I am better aware of ME(Middle east) than any other here. To the east is Iran, and to my north is Iraq. To south are the gulf countries. That's where I live, in between them all.

The Iraqi border is 4 hours on car travel, you know. And 16 hour Ship travel across the sea to reach Iranian coast.

[Ryhanna]

Do Iraq and Afghanistan have allies?
You'd think that after being invaded by the US, they'd try to invade, too...? uhm..

[Magus]

Do Iraq and Afghanistan have allies?
You'd think that after being invaded by the US, they'd try to invade, too...? uhm..

When Sadam was in control. Only few countries allied with him.

Sadam did a greivious mistake, they just finished with Iran in 1989 and started attacking another neighbor in 1990(That's where I live)? Foolish, no?

Desert Storm is th operation led by the NATO forces of U.S and G.B to push out the Invading forces.

Lost many allies in this war and especially the Gulf Countries, Egypt and Syria.

Jordan was still a friend to Sadam. But because Jordan is strong ally to G.B, so they didn't do anything crazy. Now that the dictator is gone for near 7 years. Iraq is getting a bit better and its relation with the surrounding people is getting better now, they are a prominent ally with U.S now. They want stability of the country more than anything.

Also. Iraq's(During Sadam) other ally is non other than the Gadhafi's home country i.e Libya.

Afghanistan is not having any support from any other country with the exception of NATO for armament and more stable security in there.

Even those who borders Afghanistan.

Pakistan having it's own trouble and with the Rising Insurgency; Iran is scratching its own back and doesn't care about other's affair; and Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, and Tajikistan are not up par to the Afghan war heat.

Karazai also whishes that these futile and prevelious wars just end.

I honour what the U.S did to them. I respect U.S healthy intentions for a having a secure world without the fear of crazy Terrorists.

Not Extremist but Terrorist. They are hell bent people wants only to destroy the peace.
But the conspiracy theory is still going on.

[Antares]

You asked why and I gave you an answer. What's so wrong about that?

Just wanted to make sure you read my post above this one since you didn't bother responding but decided neg rep was the way to go.

It makes my point fairly clear...and maybe I should move this to ROTW which I will do now.

Moved!!!!

[Kahn]

Ok, so maybe you know what the government is capable of.
If they know something then they should tell us. It's honesty, and you told me the government doesn't lie. If they're keeping it from us, why? It could help prevent it from happening again.

I never said Government doesn't lie. The reason they might be keeping it from us is because maybe it isn't the right time. It's not going to happen again because we have taken the right safety procedures to not let this happen. Sure there is always a threat, but what are the chances? Airport security has been upped, we have full body scans of people, and the last person to attempt it got the shit beat out of him. They don't need to tell us, there is no point to it. Plus if they do how could it prevent it from happening again?

[Raptor22]

Did you read my above post? It was much more elaborate, and they did not do this for themselves. They thought they were doing it for Allah (Their God). They thought they were doing the right thing. They were not doing it for 72 virgins.

I really dont give a shit either way, I dont agree with it, I dont understand it and I dont try too. I do know that they did it over extremist religious fervor and thats enough explanation for me.

[Ryhanna]

I never said Government doesn't lie. The reason they might be keeping it from us is because maybe it isn't the right time. It's not going to happen again because we have taken the right safety procedures to not let this happen. Sure there is always a threat, but what are the chances? Airport security has been upped, we have full body scans of people, and the last person to attempt it got the shit beat out of him. They don't need to tell us, there is no point to it. Plus if they do how could it prevent it from happening again?

I'm pretty sure you did say the government doesn't lie, I think your reasoning was that they "run the country" :P
lol anyway, for the most part I agree with you. It was a terrible tragedy and has definitley influenced the way we go about every day life. However I think the government should be more honest with people. I mean, anything, no matter how small MAY be the key to preventing something like 9/11 happening ever again. And I don't think ANYONE wants it to happen again.

[Sage]

Mr. Ahmadinejad's just trollin'.

[Evermore]

Wow, flame war much?

Just found something interesting wonder if you've heard of it before.
Governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Food for thought. :)

[mrmcdonaldduck]

ahmadinejad is obviously a sick tryranical bastard


Mr. Ahmadinejad's just trollin'.
/thread

[Kahn]

Quote it Ryan. I never implied that the Government never lies.

I really dont give a shit either way, I dont agree with it, I dont understand it and I dont try too. I do know that they did it over extremist religious fervor and thats enough explanation for me.

Your point with this post?

[Ryhanna]

Whatever, bubbles :)
I don't want to get into another argument.

[Kahn]

Whatever, bubbles :)
I don't want to get into another argument.

http://s.chakpak.com/se_images/59876_-1_564_none/winner-wallpaper.jpg

[Evermore]

Epic
http://s.chakpak.com/se_images/59876_-1_564_none/winner-wallpaper.jpg

[Raptor22]

Your point with this post?

Not too much. I was clarifying that it doesnt make what they did okay or exonerate them from blame because they were justified somehow.

[Kahn]

I never said that they were justified... I was just saying why they thought it was right.

[Raptor22]

I never said that they were justified... I was just saying why they thought it was right.

Valuable information, however logic doesnt really make a difference in this crazy conspiracy rant thread... :P

[Ryhanna]

LOL bubbles, you might be the winner but that doesn't your riiiiiight :P
Ahmajinejad (LOL) should keep his mouth shut. He's a world leader, he can't go on about that, America is (Believe it or not) VERY powerful.

[Kahn]

LOL bubbles, you might be the winner but that doesn't your riiiiiight :P
Ahmajinejad (LOL) should keep his mouth shut. He's a world leader, he can't go on about that, America is (Believe it or not) VERY powerful.

Right about what? Our argument?

[Ryhanna]

Sorry.
*Meanyour riight.
Yes, about the argument. We'll never be 100% sure of what REALLY happened, I think. They'll tell us the "truth" and stick to it.
Anyway, this thread is beginning to die so we'd better move on, hey bubbles?

[quartermaster]

First off, when 'Pearl Harbor' first happened, people created controversy over that to. People claimed that we staged this just so we can declare war on the Axis nations and join in the fight. Well, we have a quite large amount of evidence to support that it wasn't staged, and it was real. Like I said before, the fact that people challenge national tragedy is sad. It happens, but people don't trust the government so much that they blame them for it, not the real enemy.


Staged? No. Goading the Japanese to attack? Perhaps.

Mr. Bubbles, though I agree that 9/11 was no conspiracy by the US government, I still think you have slightly too much "faith" and trust in our government. I am especially concerned about your "Checks and Balances" argument; we have seen that regardless of checks and balances, the many branches have thoroughly moved into other federal and some state realms. The executive has engaged in countless amounts of war related activities outside of the declaration of war (the congress' authority), with or without the legislatures' knowledge or consent (can anyone say Iran-Contra? or what about the countless amounts of CIA operations?), the Judiciary actually creates its own legislation through so-called activist judges, bypassing the legislature in what is usually collusion between the executive and the judiciary, the list goes on Ad infinitum. So again, we have seen through the countless offenses in the past what Checks and Balances, without a check on federal power all-together (which use to be the states) reaps.

Checks and balances work well when there can be a check on every power, but in our modern case, there is very little check on the federal government (which makes up the executive, legislative and judicial branches). As such, they may sometimes fight each other over certain federal matters, but who is to "fight" them when they all, in collusion, get out of order? When they begin to pick and choose what authorities they will take up or allow other federal branches to take up?

By the way, the CIA knew that the September 11 attackers were in the country (they were on the darn terrorist watch list!) for the better part of a year. The catch; they "forgot" to tell the FBI. Upon hearing about the attacks of the September 11 and who the attackers were, the CIA Director, George Tenet, simply said, "We’re fucked." Though I am no conspiracy theorist and I believe the 9/11 conspiracy arguments to be thoroughly inept, I believe you are still giving the federal government too many "benevolence" points, in this regard.

[Kahn]

Staged? No. Goading the Japanese to attack? Perhaps.

Mr. Bubbles, though I agree that 9/11 was no conspiracy by the US government, I still think you have slightly too much "faith" and trust in our government. I am especially concerned about your "Checks and Balances" argument; we have seen that regardless of checks and balances, the many branches have thoroughly moved into other federal and some state realms. The executive has engaged in countless amounts of war related activities outside of the declaration of war (the congress' authority), with or without the legislatures' knowledge or consent (can anyone say Iran-Contra? or what about the countless amounts of CIA operations?), the Judiciary actually creates its own legislation through so-called activist judges, bypassing the legislature in what is usually collusion between the executive and the judiciary, the list goes on Ad infinitum. So again, we have seen through the countless offenses in the past what Checks and Balances, without a check on federal power all-together (which use to be the states) reaps.

Checks and balances work well when there can be a check on every power, but in our modern case, there is very little check on the federal government (which makes up the executive, legislative and judicial branches). As such, they may sometimes fight each other over certain federal matters, but who is to "fight" them when they all, in collusion, get out of order? When they begin to pick and choose what authorities they will take up or allow other federal branches to take up?

By the way, the CIA knew that the September 11 attackers were in the country (they were on the darn terrorist watch list!) for the better part of a year. The catch; they "forgot" to tell the FBI. Upon hearing about the attacks of the September 11 and who the attackers were, the CIA Director, George Tenet, simply said, "We’re fucked." Though I am no conspiracy theorist and I believe the 9/11 conspiracy arguments to be thoroughly inept, I believe you are still giving the federal government too many "benevolence" points, in this regard.

So we basically let it happen to let war happen?

I gave the federal government the benefit of the doubt since I trust them. The Bush Administration, not so much. Although I knew the CIA had the intelligence, I had already thought they gave it to the FBI. Why wouldn't they? And why wouldn't the FBI do anything about it either?

And I was waiting for someone my checks and balances argument. I knew there were flaws in it, I just knew most people wouldn't bring it up. Most people would see it, go "I don't know what that is" and leave. I agree with you on how checks and balances can only work if there is a check in every power, but why was there no investigation? Why wouldn't the FBI or other branches of government ask for an investigation of the Bush Administration and the CIA? Are they above the Constitution and the Declaration of War?

[Evermore]

I prefer to see the best in people. Sure you get dissapointed quite a bit but overall you're much happier.

I did this for the lulz: http://static.funnyjunk.com/pictures/bomb_us_next.jpg

[Magus]

I prefer to see the best in people. Sure you get dissapointed quite a bit but overall you're much happier

*Observes* They look like Yemenites.

-A middle earthen hath spoken-

[Ryhanna]

Hmm, wasn't just a few months into Bush's first term?
I'd say it's more Clinton than Bush's people...

[Hollywood]

we fucking own iran, so booyah!

[Ryhanna]

we fucking own iran, so booyah!

Well, if American's like you continue to be so arrogant that may change.

[Perseus]

Well, if American's like you continue to be so arrogant that may change.

He's from the deep south, ignore him.... -.-

[quartermaster]

So we basically let it happen to let war happen?

I gave the federal government the benefit of the doubt since I trust them. The Bush Administration, not so much. Although I knew the CIA had the intelligence, I had already thought they gave it to the FBI. Why wouldn't they? And why wouldn't the FBI do anything about it either?


Quite simply, the CIA did not tell the FBI because of inter-agency rivalry. The CIA and the FBI, in the real sense, do not get along; the CIA sees the FBI as incompetent and one that leaks intel, and the FBI sees the CIA as arrogant and bombastic (in essence, both of these are kind of true). The Department of Homeland security was created after September 11 to deal with this problem and better integrate the two agencies, but of course, it has not; all it has done is further bloated the bureaucracy of our intelligence gathering and application (look at the case of the recent "underwear bomber," who was on our watch-list, but still got through our bloated DHS). It is foolish to believe that the best way to “streamline” a system is to make the system more bloated.


And I was waiting for someone my checks and balances argument. I knew there were flaws in it, I just knew most people wouldn't bring it up. Most people would see it, go "I don't know what that is" and leave. I agree with you on how checks and balances can only work if there is a check in every power, but why was there no investigation? Why wouldn't the FBI or other branches of government ask for an investigation of the Bush Administration and the CIA?


Why would they, are they not apart of the system? Are the CIA and FBI directors not appointed by the president? Are they not federally funded agencies? They are, in many senses, the manifestation of the very federal usurpation; since the federal branches have a lot of trouble dealing with certain issues directly, sometimes it is easier to delegate to a federal bureaucracy or agency; it's called the Iron Triangle, it's called the Military Industrial Complex. Make no mistake, I am not saying it is a giant conspiracy to "kill us" or whatever the usual arguments are, I am saying that it is collusion to get around the “inconveniences” of the Constitution.


Are they above the Constitution and the Declaration of War?

Well, they tend to think so.

[Evermore]

http://static.funnyjunk.com/pictures/hide_and_seek0.png