I Hate Abortion

[Doctor Fate]

I hate abortion so much. I hate it, hate it, hate it. I despise it with every God damned cell of my being, with every drop of my blood, with every ounce of my soul. I despise abortion more than worst enemy.

I have very personal reasons for feeling this way, but I don't want to write about them right now because it isn't important.

Abortion absolutely sickens me. Saying, "Oh if I/you get pregnant, we'll just kill it" just disgusts me to no ends. Using abortion as birth control is not healthy physically or psychologically, and it is not a mature or responsible approach to sex. It's just disgusting and wrong to think of unborn children as expendable.

But oh sure. These stupid places that actually do them just hand it them out like candy because they think that an unborn child is "just a clump of cells" and it doesn't count as a human being... even though we're all human beings, and we were all just "clumps of cells" in the womb once. In fact, that's still what all of us are: just clumps of cells. Like every other living thing on the planet.

...eh, sorry. I needed to vent. This subject just upsets me so much and I get so angry and depressed when I think about it. :cry:

I dearly want to crucify whoever decided to make it legal in Canada, though.

[2D]

I support abortion wholeheartedly. Because of this one sentence.

Abortion sends the little buggers to God faster.

Less population=good

Less idiot parents=good

They don't suffer on this shithole=good

Abortion=good

[Doctor Fate]

I support abortion wholeheartedly. Because of this one sentence.

Abortion sends the little buggers to God faster.

That is still no reason for them to never have a chance to have a life like us...

[2D]

That is still no reason for them to never have a chance to have a life like us... :cry:

You actually like this life?

[Doctor Fate]

You actually like this life?

It is what you make of it, and about being satisfied with what good things you do have...

[2D]

It is what you make of it, and about being satisfied with what good things you do have...

Take your own advice then. Because from all the shit you post it seems like you hate life. Don't be so hypocritical.

I love my life.

[JackOfClubs]

I am pro-choice. Though when I'm married I would make it clear that my wife will not have an abortion; if we cannot support the baby it will go up for adoption.

I feel that the woman can do whatever the hell she wants to her body, but only as long as both parties agree.

[Jean Poutine]

I feel that the woman can do whatever the hell she wants to her body

Including bailing herself out of her mistakes with the killing of a being?

Idiots need to be protected against themselves. I'm pro-life solely because people are humongous morons that always take the easy path out.

The human, noble thing to do would be giving it up for adoption. Abortion speaks of niggardly morals most of the time.

[JackOfClubs]

Including bailing herself out of her mistakes with the killing of a being?
If she wants to deal with the fact that she killed a human being thats her problem, not mine.

[Jean Poutine]

If she wants to deal with the fact that she killed a human being thats her problem, not mine.

I'm going to go kill someone randomly in the streets. Justice shouldn't send my ass to jail because the killing is really a disclaimer that I choose to endorse the moral and emotional consequences of killing someone.

[CuriousDestruction]

i'm not gonna debate your hatred towards abortion. i understand it. i'm glad you vented and got it off your chest. i know why you are posting about this and i sympathize.

[Sapphire]

I am pro-choice. Though when I'm married I would make it clear that my wife will not have an abortion; if we cannot support the baby it will go up for adoption.

I feel that the woman can do whatever the hell she wants to her body, but only as long as both parties agree.
That seems a bit...contradictory.
You are saying "women can do what they want with their body apart from in the instance of marrying me, in which case they will do what I want them to do with their body"

How can you say that both parties should agree when talking about a random couple but changing that to she will do it your way in the case of you and your wife?

*Be warned, I will not hold back here*
To be perfectly honest, you sound like a class A controlling prick who will dictate things to whoever is unfortunate enough to marry you. What you have said is not only contradictory, but also controlling, manipulative and abusive.

[CaptainObvious]

That is still no reason for them to never have a chance to have a life like us...

And the same is true of every potential being we do not create. Why are you all of a sudden so sentimental because the thing that won't "get a chance at life" has some more genetic material? It's still a clump of matter with absolutely no moral status, until it becomes a person.

Including bailing herself out of her mistakes with the killing of a being?

Idiots need to be protected against themselves. I'm pro-life solely because people are humongous morons that always take the easy path out.

The human, noble thing to do would be giving it up for adoption. Abortion speaks of niggardly morals most of the time.

Why? Our planet is already rather overpopulated, the most noble thing to do would be to not contribute at all to increasing the population of the planet and instead dedicate one's life to easing the poverty and other deleterious effects it has caused.

Plus, what the hell is with people acting as if taking the "easy way out" is some horrible thing? I drive long distances instead of walk; I take the elevator up tall buildings instead of the stairs; why are those easy ways out not equally condemnable? Because, if the act itself is not morally bad, it does not matter in any way whether or not it's easy. Although, to the extent that it could be argued to matter, easy is normally superior.

I'm going to go kill someone randomly in the streets. Justice shouldn't send my ass to jail because the killing is really a disclaimer that I choose to endorse the moral and emotional consequences of killing someone.

That doesn't really make any sense. But in any case, it doesn't matter because "someone" in the streets is (in almost all circumstances) a person; a fetus is not. The moral distinction is incredibly important.

[Permanence]

Not looking to start an argument with the pro-lifers here, just wondering what your stance would be if a woman became pregnant as a result of rape? Or if the pregnancy had to be terminated due to health issues?

[tripolar]

First why does abortion bother people so much, you will never know the babies that were aborted and chances are even if they were born you still would never know them. They're missing nothing because they were never born you aren't even counted as a member of the population until you are born which makes the fetus nothing until its born.

I can not understand why people are upset about a undeveloped thing getting terminated. Lets say a baby that was born was terminated that's something completely different because its living and it has life experiences.

Abortion is one of those situations were its ok sometimes and unacceptable other times. Say if the baby can't be afforded or the parents are trash. if the woman was raped, if the woman could not survive a birth or the baby was going to be severely disabled or a product of incest then abortion is fine. the time that i see abortion has wrong is when some bimbo get knocked up time and time again and keeps getting abortions that is wrong.


I support abortion wholeheartedly. Because of this one sentence.

Abortion sends the little buggers to God faster.

Less population=good

Less idiot parents=good

They don't suffer on this shithole=good

Abortion=good

That is the best way to sum it up, I totally agree 100% except the second to last one about the shithole, the world isn't a shithole its only a shithole if you make it one.

[Jean Poutine]

Why? Our planet is already rather overpopulated, the most noble thing to do would be to not contribute at all to increasing the population of the planet and instead dedicate one's life to easing the poverty and other deleterious effects it has caused.

Plus, what the hell is with people acting as if taking the "easy way out" is some horrible thing? I drive long distances instead of walk; I take the elevator up tall buildings instead of the stairs; why are those easy ways out not equally condemnable? Because, if the act itself is not morally bad, it does not matter in any way whether or not it's easy. Although, to the extent that it could be argued to matter, easy is normally superior.

Our planet is already overpopulated? Who should we kill to ease the burden then? Killing fetuses, that's just a cop out.

As for the "easy way out", you're overgeneralising. Carrying the pregnancy to term instead of killing it because of your mistake is hard - vacuuming the fetus is easy and saves you from a huge life change, or at least, an experience that one could use to learn from one's mistake. Nobody is learning anything from climbing stairs other than they could be more in shape.

And by the way, you should really use the stairs. Good exercice.

Abortion as contraception doesn't seem to teach people common sense.

That doesn't really make any sense. But in any case, it doesn't matter because "someone" in the streets is (in almost all circumstances) a person; a fetus is not. The moral distinction is incredibly important.

That could be argued to hell and back. The debate on abortion revolves primarily on the definition of a person. That definition is up to personal choice and beliefs.

I choose to consider a fetus, a person. Therefore, the comparison is valid.

[CaptainObvious]

Our planet is already overpopulated? Who should we kill to ease the burden then? Killing fetuses, that's just a cop out.

Once again, the whole point is that unless the action is inherently bad, it being a cop out does not matter at all. And the rest of your argument thus falls away as irrelevant, until we get to:

That could be argued to hell and back. The debate on abortion revolves primarily on the definition of a person. That definition is up to personal choice and beliefs.

I choose to consider a fetus, a person. Therefore, the comparison is valid.

Yes, it is up to personal beliefs. But not all beliefs are made equal. The idea that a fetus is a person as early in development as the OP got her abortion is a stupid one, being as it's not supported by any definition of what a person is.

[-Silence]

I think its funny how you people that would choose abortion at the drop of a hat are mostly men.

[JackOfClubs]

That seems a bit...contradictory.
You are saying "women can do what they want with their body apart from in the instance of marrying me, in which case they will do what I want them to do with their body"

How can you say that both parties should agree when talking about a random couple but changing that to she will do it your way in the case of you and your wife?

*Be warned, I will not hold back here*
To be perfectly honest, you sound like a class A controlling prick who will dictate things to whoever is unfortunate enough to marry you. What you have said is not only contradictory, but also controlling, manipulative and abusive.
What I'm saying is that I feel that women should be able to get an abortion if they want to; I'm fine with that. Who am I to stop her? But whe I find the woman I want to marry, and have children with, I want us to come to some sort of an agreement that says that if we have children, and have the ability to support them, financially and physically, we should have the baby. Obviously I'm not going to be overbearing and controlling, she has just as much a say in it as I do.

I'm going to say this again: If another couple wants to have an abortion, thats their problem, not mine. Who am I to say they can't do it? Let them face the consequences of their choices.

[2D]

I think its funny how you people that would choose abortion at the drop of a hat are mostly men.

Point being?

[Baudelaire]

what if a girl were to get raped and impregnated? she shouldnt be held responsible for that.

[Resinflux]

Okay just curious if a woman gets brutally raped and gets pregnant, she should not be allowed to abort the baby because of moral? I mean a lot of women who are raped have abortions because they originally did not want a child in the first place, and should not be burdened with another mans sin..I think in this case abortion should be allowed. But in general idiots not using a condom should be allowed to have an abortion and have hysterectomy's for being so iresponable

[Kitty Purry]

Now i completely understand where your coming from

But really some people cannot have thses kids. for example lets say a woman on welfare got pregnet, she cant afford it so would you rather that child be borught up on the streets, and having to go through a hard life. Or it not go through that. And since when are other people allowed to tell another person what they can do with there body. it should be left to the women carrying the child to choose.

But in some cases abortion is wrong so thats my point of view- such as abortion being a form of birth control is wrong

[Resinflux]

Meh I just think in certain circumstances people should be judged by there decision..If I were a woman and I was raped I really wouldn't want to keep the child...especially if you contract a disease..

[-Silence]

Point being?

Point being that it doesn't affect you guys the same way it does the woman carrying the child.

[CaptainObvious]

Point being that it doesn't affect you guys the same way it does the woman carrying the child.

Which is precisely why my feeling on the issue is "let the woman decide".

But that doesn't mean I can't form an opinion about the moral status of a fetus. That in no way requires you to be a specific gender.

[2D]

Point being that it doesn't affect you guys the same way it does the woman carrying the child.

I don't give a shit what happens. But I support the ability to have an abortion take place. Whether someone does it is completely up to them.

[-Silence]

I agree Jeff, I am pro-choice because I believe everyone should have the choice to keep it or not, depending on their circumstance, but I dont support abortion, if that makes any sense.

[Doctor Fate]

Take your own advice then. Because from all the shit you post it seems like you hate life. Don't be so hypocritical.

I love my life.

I could be happy if I wanted to be... I just don't try.

And despite my feelings, I also very well understand the other side of the argument and how pro-choicers feel - it's only a proper human right, for a woman to be allowed to have that choice... even if many people don't like that and hate having to accept it.

[Resinflux]

Either way if the woman wants to get rid of it ITS HER choice. It is NOT our right to tell other people what they cant and cant do to THERE OWN body

[AgusCO]

I'm against it. Unless in special cases(Rape,etc).
But if you just irresponsibly have unprotected sex then..."Turn around and face your fate" I mean, deal with the consequences.

(IDK if "irresponsibly" exists, but I'm not a native speaker)

[Doctor Fate]

Okay just curious if a woman gets brutally raped and gets pregnant, she should not be allowed to abort the baby because of moral? I mean a lot of women who are raped have abortions because they originally did not want a child in the first place, and should not be burdened with another mans sin..I think in this case abortion should be allowed. But in general idiots not using a condom should be allowed to have an abortion and have hysterectomy's for being so iresponable

I'm not too sure about rape personally, that one is very iffy (though it's probably OK if it was the result of incest). But I feel it is definitely OK to have an abortion if the woman's life, physical or mental health is in peril, or if they already know that there is something seriously medically wrong with the child and it's not fixable, not likely to survive for very long after birth, or is likely to not have a very good quality of life.

But the thing is, it seems those sort of circumstances are almost never the case with most abortions that are performed, at least in the West where the laws are extremely lax (or in Canada's case, totally non-existent). Most are simply average, unmarried young women who fear that a child will compromise their future.

But, nonetheless...

[Resinflux]

Canada's awesome >.>

[Sapphire]

But whe I find the woman I want to marry, and have children with, I want us to come to some sort of an agreement that says that if we have children, and have the ability to support them, financially and physically, we should have the baby. Obviously I'm not going to be overbearing and controlling, she has just as much a say in it as I do.Is that really so? The following says otherwise.
Though when I'm married I would make it clear that my wife will not have an abortion; if we cannot support the baby it will go up for adoption.

[quartermaster]

*Be warned, I will not hold back here*
To be perfectly honest, you sound like a class A controlling prick who will dictate things to whoever is unfortunate enough to marry you. What you have said is not only contradictory, but also controlling, manipulative and abusive.

Sapphire do try and get over yourself..and quickly. You are getting angry at a person who would want to have a say in the matter of his wife aborting his child. Gah! What a travesty! How dare the husband not want his child killed! He is obviously the abusive, controlling sort! I understand it is a woman's body, but to discount the fact that the husband would like some say in the killing of his child is a bit much.

Seriously Sapphire, get over yourself and your fabricated zero-sum games.

[Sapphire]

Sapphire do try and get over yourself..and quickly. You are getting angry at a person who would want to have a say in the matter of his wife aborting his child. Gah! What a travesty! How dare the husband not want his child killed! He is obviously the abusive, controlling sort! I understand it is a woman's body, but to discount the fact that the husband would like some say in the killing of his child is a bit much.

Seriously Sapphire, get over yourself and your fabricated zero-sum games.
I have no problem with (and I in fact encourage) the man and the woman to discuss this issue and make a joint decision.

What I do have a problem with is someone turning round and saying "when I get married, I won't let my wife have an abortion" as that leaves no room for discussion or any input from the woman. That is controlling. That is abusive.

[quartermaster]

I have no problem with (and I in fact encourage) the man and the woman to discuss this issue and make a joint decision.

What I do have a problem with is someone turning round and saying "when I get married, I won't let my wife have an abortion" as that leaves no room for discussion or any input from the woman. That is controlling. That is abusive.

A husband disagreeing with an abortion and telling his wife he will not "stand" for an abortion is not controlling or abusive, unless he puts his hands on her, threatens her or in any way becomes coercive. You are manipulating words here; until he physically prevents the abortion (assuming it is not illegal), he has not become controlling or abusive, he has only exercised his right as the father of the child. The wife could still, technically, as long as she is not threatened or harmed, get an abortion without her husband's consent; granted, I do believe that marriage would end as a result.

A man setting "rules" or "terms" does not mean he is controlling or abusive, it is him trying to create mutual understanding, if not to ensure rapport; when it becomes physical or coercive, then the man has become abusive. Again, I believe you are being over dramatic and reactionary.

[Sapphire]

A husband disagreeing with an abortion and telling his wife he will not "stand" for an abortion is not controlling or abusive, unless he puts his hands on her, threatens her or in any way becomes coercive. You are manipulating words here; until he physically prevents the abortion (assuming it is not illegal), he has not become controlling or abusive, he has only exercised his right as the father of the child. The wife could still, technically, as long as she is not threatened or harmed, get an abortion without her husband's consent; granted, I do believe that marriage would end as a result.

A man setting "rules" or "terms" does not mean he is controlling or abusive, it is him trying to create mutual understanding, if not to ensure rapport; when it becomes physical or coercive, then the man has become abusive. Again, I believe you are being over dramatic and reactionary.By saying "You are married to me so you won't have an abortion." a man is being coercive since it leaves no room for discussion and applies pressure to the woman to do as he says. And, as you have already said, to be coercive is to be controlling. A woman in this situation will not feel as able to express a differing view as she should be because of the certain, dead-fast message he's given her. Going about it this way is more aggressive than assertive.

If he wanted to create mutual understanding then surely he would be better served by saying "I feel really strongly about this and would much rather put it up for adoption than abort it" or something to the same effect. This option leaves room for the woman to bring her view to the table in a more understanding environment where she is more likely (or at least feels more likely) to be listened to. Going about it this way is more assertive than aggressive.

Since the woman is the one that has to go through all the physical changes of pregnancy and labour, she should be allowed to voice her opinion openly with her partner without being subject to controlling, coercive actions and/or dialogue.

[Atonement]

I find abortion as a form of birthcontrol disgusting. Yes. Go out and fuck a bunch of people, get knocked up, go to the clinic, do it again. Not okay

But an accident where you were most likely protected and a mistake happened, I don't really see it as killing a baby, but rather post-poning the baby. Not this one, but the next one. It is hard to do, and some might call me a monster for it, but if the time or situation isn't right, why would you bring in a child destined to fail?

Also, I don't believe in third term abortion. If a embryo can survive outside of the mother's system, on its own, it should not be aborted. Though, if it is, as one says, a clump of cells and cannot survive on its own, I see no problem.

[Ripplemagne]

You actually like this life?


I do. I adore it and am grateful for every day I open my eyes.

I'm neither pro-life nor pro-choice for two reasons. The first is that I, as a male, have a penis, so the object of choice is silly to put on my shoulders. The second being that both have fairly solid arguments and the major dilemma I see is defining if a fetus is a human or not, which I see no feasible means of proving. However, I think one should take this (http://ripplemagne.weebly.com/1/post/2009/01/adoption-a-rebuttal-for-abortion.html) into account when making a decision.

[Resinflux]

Abortion isnt a type of birth control :/ birth control STOPS you from getting pregnant does it? And besides until the fetus developed a brain it isnt really alive it can not feel pain without nerves, it has no conscious thoughts of any kind. I don't know why people call it a baby and stuff it's not. Science defines what an living or non living organism is. As far as abortion goes your kill the baby before it ever becomes a baby. Be thankful people have it done early on because one the baby develops to an extent only then does it become murder against a defenseless human. Of course this can be HIGHLY contradictory on the basis that sperm is on a technicality alive so if the sperms alive wouldn't the fetus be alive?

I think its a very interesting subject and the views on it are so...well i think by this thread you can see as much but regardless there are specific rules to abortion like not being able to abort after a certain period of time

[Fiending_the_freedom]

A husband disagreeing with an abortion and telling his wife he will not "stand" for an abortion is not controlling or abusive, unless he puts his hands on her,threatens her or in any way becomes coercive. You are manipulating words here; until he physically prevents the abortion (assuming it is not illegal), he has not become controlling or abusive, he has only exercised his right as the father of the child.

A man does not have to threaten or hurt his wife be be controlling and abusive.
Ever heard of being emotionally abusive? A proper man would say "I am against abortion very strongly, we could put it up for adoption, but in the end it is your decision." He doesn't have to physically stop the abortion to be abusive or controlling, thats just an example of realizing someones abusive too late.

A man setting "rules" or "terms" does not mean he is controlling or abusive, it is him trying to create mutual understanding, if not to ensure rapport; when it becomes physical or coercive, then the man has become abusive. Again, I believe you are being over dramatic and reactionary.

Once again, some woman are weak emotionally, and men like this take advantage of how easy they are to boss around. A man making rules and terms for his woman is not ok, but a wife and husband talking about how they feel about certain things together is fine.

Why is it that a man has to have already hurt or forced his wife to do something to be considered abusive? If that were the way things worked, we would NEVER be able to stop abusive relationships before they get out of hand.

[Camaro1985]

I think abortion is good. We need the stem cells to fix the people we do have and not have even more. The estimated population of the world is approaching 7.5 BILLION! 5 billion is already overpopulation! What happens when the Earth is unable to support the amount of humans there will be? Will we kill people? Will we die of starvation? How many species will be extinct by then?






.......sorry, I hate religion and dumb people.
Note:For RippleMagne, who neg repped me, religious people usually are against abortion for dumb reasons.

[2D]

.......sorry, I hate religion and dumb people.

Yeah, because all religious people are morons.

I do agree with your point though. Overpopulation and all.

[JackOfClubs]

Is that really so? The following says otherwise.
Its the exact same thing just worded differently.

[quartermaster]

By saying "You are married to me so you won't have an abortion." a man is being coercive since it leaves no room for discussion and applies pressure to the woman to do as he says.

That is not coercion, if I tell my friend that he may not enter into the McDonalds, that is not coercion, insofar as I do not use force upon him. Again, you are being a reactionary to words and not force; the woman still has a choice in the matter.


And, as you have already said, to be coercive is to be controlling.


Sure, but the husband is not being coercive.

[2D]

http://moesucks.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/u-mad.jpg

Srsly, you guys. You blew this way outta proportion. Read Jacks post again very carefully.

[Frankenstein's Bride]

I hate abortion so much. I hate it, hate it, hate it. I despise it with every God damned cell of my being, with every drop of my blood, with every ounce of my soul. I despise abortion more than worst enemy.

I have very personal reasons for feeling this way, but I don't want to write about them right now because it isn't important.

Abortion absolutely sickens me. Saying, "Oh if I/you get pregnant, we'll just kill it" just disgusts me to no ends. Using abortion as birth control is not healthy physically or psychologically, and it is not a mature or responsible approach to sex. It's just disgusting and wrong to think of unborn children as expendable.

But oh sure. These stupid places that actually do them just hand it them out like candy because they think that an unborn child is "just a clump of cells" and it doesn't count as a human being... even though we're all human beings, and we were all just "clumps of cells" in the womb once. In fact, that's still what all of us are: just clumps of cells. Like every other living thing on the planet.

...eh, sorry. I needed to vent. This subject just upsets me so much and I get so angry and depressed when I think about it. :cry:

I dearly want to crucify whoever decided to make it legal in Canada, though.

I agree with you 100%, who the fuck are we to deny 1000 of people their lives?

[ChaoticHarmony]

quick question to Doctor Fate.....

did you realize that that little rant would start an internet war? i hope you did. cause now everyone is pissed at everyone because we all believe something different. why argue about our differences. i really doubt that if one person tells me one way or the other than i will start believing that. its kinda like religion. if a buddhist goes up to a christian and tells him all about his religion, is the christian going to immediately convert to Buddhism? no. but what if a bunch of em come up and say the same damn thing, just in a different way? will he convert then? no. he wont. and you know that. so why are we fighting eachother's beliefs when we can just agree to disagree??

this is why i hate the world. every one is so damn uptight and they think that their way is the only way and if you dont follow them then ur the antichrist. everyones so damn childish.

[Sapphire]

Its the exact same thing just worded differently.The difference in wording means the world to anyone who isn't a complete dipshit.
What you have said with regards to your future wife shows an unwillingness to compromise and yet you preach a willingness to compromise to other people.

Make your mind up as to what you believe is right before you go about preaching double standards and a hypocritical way of handling things.

That is not coercion, if I tell my friend that he may not enter into the McDonalds, that is not coercion, insofar as I do not use force upon him. Again, you are being a reactionary to words and not force; the woman still has a choice in the matter.By being forceful in your dialogue, you are being forceful in the relationship.
There are two ways a man can go about expressing a strong dislike of abortion and one will result in ill feeling between the two of them (unless they both agree on the topic and she doesn't mind being told in no uncertain terms that she should go against what he has said) while the other leaves room for healthy and responsible discussion.
The fact that she can choose one option over the other regardless of what her husband says or does is neither here nor there because there are men out there that will use coercive dialogue and/or actions to see his will be done regardless of what the woman thinks and feels.

The existence of such is demonstrated by JackofClubs attitude that it is okay for women to abort a pregnancy as long as they are not married to him. That is something he has stated a couple of times already in plain english.

Sure, but the husband is not being coercive.If he is stating his opinion in a way that does not lend itself to negotiation or consideration of her views and feelings then it is very coercive and (by default) very controlling.

[Doctor Fate]

quick question to Doctor Fate.....

did you realize that that little rant would start an internet war? i hope you did. cause now everyone is pissed at everyone because we all believe something different. why argue about our differences. i really doubt that if one person tells me one way or the other than i will start believing that. its kinda like religion. if a buddhist goes up to a christian and tells him all about his religion, is the christian going to immediately convert to Buddhism? no. but what if a bunch of em come up and say the same damn thing, just in a different way? will he convert then? no. he wont. and you know that. so why are we fighting eachother's beliefs when we can just agree to disagree??

this is why i hate the world. every one is so damn uptight and they think that their way is the only way and if you dont follow them then ur the antichrist. everyones so damn childish.

I'm sorry... I just didn't really think before I posted this... :(

[ChaoticHarmony]

I'm sorry... I just didn't really think before I posted this... :(

its cool. i understand u were just venting...i just knew as soon as i saw the topic that there was gonna be a war about it....oh well. no need to dwell in the past :)

(oh and watch; people are still gonna argue with eachother and try and prove they are right, even after what i posed and what you posted.....)

[The Batman]

That is not coercion, if I tell my friend that he may not enter into the McDonalds, that is not coercion, insofar as I do not use force upon him. Again, you are being a reactionary to words and not force; the woman still has a choice in the matter.



Sure, but the husband is not being coercive.

The way he worded it wasn't that, "I wouldn't want my wife to get an abortion" or, "I will tell my wife not to get an abortion" he said
Though when I'm married I would make it clear that my wife will not have an abortion; if we cannot support the baby it will go up for adoption.
That isn't giving her a choice it's saying no matter what you aren't doing it.

Also since this has turned into a debate(which it always does) :arrow: ROTW

[BeautifulDisaster]

You're not killing a human if you abort, it has not developed enough.

If someone is raped and they fall pregnant, would you not allow them to abort the baby?
If someone is underage & has no way of supporting the baby, would you not allow them to abort the baby?
If someone feels they are not ready to have a baby yet, would you not allow them to abort the baby?
If someone's way of protection didn't work, would you not allow them to abort the baby?

Free will, it is called having FREE WILL.
Something NO ONE and NOTHING should take away from anyone.

If someone decides to abort their baby, that is their choice, & no one has a right to judge them for that decision.

It is one they have to make for themselves, & the majority of the time, it is for good reasons, for the best interests of the baby.

[2D]

I agree with you Aimee expect on one thing. Everyone has the right to free will. Correct? Well then, isn't the right to judge someone encompassed in the right to have free will? Your argument is invalid because FREE WILL is something NO ONE and NOTHING should take away from anyone.

[Cats In Space]

Abortion should be used if the mother was a rape victim. I mean, if the girl gets raped at 14 and has the baby, she should get an abortion because she wasn't ready and it isn't her lovers baby. Also, if the parents are extremely young and unable to provide a suitable environment for the child, such as if the parents were drug dealers, I really think killing the baby would be a good idea instead of releasing it into the Hell it would be raised in.

[Death]

@OP: What if the mother was raped and did not have the time or 'facilities' to raise a child that she never wanted to have and she didn't want to raise a child into that atmosphere? What if the baby put her life at risk and aborting it is the only way to ensure her health (bearing in mind that she may not even have meant to have meant to have a baby)? I'm sorry, but although I agree that in cases, abortion could well be wrong, but your argument does seem rather closed-minded.

[Ripplemagne]

If your stance is that it's okay in the case of rape, doesn't that trump your entire argument in of itself?

[Death]

If your stance is that it's okay in the case of rape, doesn't that trump your entire argument in of itself?

How? Please elaborate.

[Ripplemagne]

Well, if it's okay in the case of rape, then you're conceding that "murder" is alright in one circumstance, completely nulling out the argument about irresponsibility and taking the easy way out. That makes no sense.

[Death]

But is abortion murder? And can one control being raped? Besides, there are probably more examples than just rape. For instance, there could be health issues connected to having a baby which could put the mother's life at risk.

[Ripplemagne]

But the baby is still dying for one reason or another if, indeed, it is murder. So, if one is willing to overlook it for rape, why not for an accidental pregnancy? This is not my belief on the subject, but it is something to consider.

[Death]

But the baby is still dying for one reason or another if, indeed, it is murder.

TBH, I'm not sure which I believe to be honest; both views seem valid to me. One thing though, I'm not sure what I think, but would you call killing your enemy in a war murder?

So, if one is willing to overlook it for rape, why not for an accidental pregnancy? This is not my belief on the subject, but it is something to consider.

Admittedly, you have a point. You're doing the same to the baby regardless of the circumstances. I just thought that the baby might have a bad life if it's not welcomed or looked after properly (whether it's the fault of the parents or not). But whether or not death is better is something that is certainly debatable, and I myself am not really sure about, coming to think of it.

[Ripplemagne]

TBH, I'm not sure which I believe to be honest; both views seem valid to me. One thing though, I'm not sure what I think, but would you call killing your enemy in a war murder?

Depends on the conditions of the war. Though, in most cases, it falls under self defense and is legally approved. The actual definition of "murder" is to illegally kill another human being, so technically, abortion is not murder because (at least in America) Roe v. Wade legalized abortion.

That being said, human laws aren't absolute, so it's not really fair to use that as the end all, be all of the argument.

Admittedly, you have a point. You're doing the same to the baby regardless of the circumstances. I just thought that the baby might have a bad life if it's not welcomed or looked after properly (whether it's the fault of the parents or not). But whether or not death is better is something that is certainly debatable, and I myself am not really sure about, coming to think of it.

It's a very touchy subject, which is why I don't have a definite view on the subject. Unfortunately, proving either side is a very difficult process because they don't rely on many facts, but interpretation and contemplation.

[ChaoticHarmony]

...who called it. me. *sigh*

[Fiending_the_freedom]

The point is, it's legal because it is not murder.
It is scientifically, under the law not considered murder.
It's legal for a reason.

[Ripplemagne]

...who called it. me. *sigh*


No one cares. Go away.

The point is, it's legal because it is not murder.
It is scientifically, under the law not considered murder.
It's legal for a reason.


It's legally not murder. It's scientifically killing because murder is defined by the law.

But that's not really a fair argument, Tegan. Personal convictions aside, a court decision isn't exactly infallible. Norma McCorvey (Jane Roe, otherwise known as the lawyer who brought forth the decision for abortion in the United States) is a major anti-abortion advocate nowadays. Not saying you're wrong, but that's not a fair gauge for conducting an argument.

[ChaoticHarmony]

No one cares. Go away.

is all that really necessary? and the neg rep? just cause u dont like what i said doesnt mean that u gotta be an asshole

[Ripplemagne]

is all that really necessary? and the neg rep? just cause u dont like what i said doesnt mean that u gotta be an asshole

Yes, it does. Now, shut up and let the adults talk.

[ChaoticHarmony]

Yes, it does. Now, shut up and let the adults talk.

damn. what crawled up ur ass n died?

[Ripplemagne]

Other than your seething idiocy, you mean?

[ChaoticHarmony]

seething idiocy? how so?

[Ripplemagne]

How 'bout bitching, moaning and groaning about arguing in the Rambling of the Wise forum? No one really gives a shit about your John Lennon "all we are saying" pitter patter. If you don't like debate, don't go into the Ramblings of the Wise forum. Simple as that.

[Antares]

Enough of that, back on topic right now.

[LoveBullets]

I, personally, would never have an abortion. No matter the circumstance. Mainly because I do believe that the fetus, however tiny it may be, is still a valuable life with valuable potential.

Having said that, I don't believe that abortions should be illegal. Why? Because women will not stop having abortions simply because some white dudes in Washington say they can't. Just as prohibition didn't stop the consumption of alcohol, or hasn't stopped people from smoking pot. I'd rather have women have abortions in safe hospital environments than in some alley by some guy named bob the butcher.

And those are my two cents on the matter. :)

[nachtspiegel]

I have my views and opinions, but as with anything else, the ones most qualified to speak about it are the ones that have been in the situation. I will never be a pregnant woman, so I will never be fully qualified to speak about it- at least, in my opinion.
Fathers have no rights. That bothers me, but there isn't really a moral way to introduce father's rights. I'd see this as a powerhouse for abusive men that are hell-bound determined to make the woman they've abused have a child by them.
The best way to avoid the dilemma of being a man who has gotten a woman pregnant and has to watch by as she has an abortion they don't agree with... talk about it. I cannot count the number of times - on both hands - that I've seen a guy and a girl not talk about what they'd do if she ends up pregnant and then fight about it when it happens.

One legal catch twenty-two that I see is that a person can be prosecuted for murder if they hit a pregnant woman and cause her to lose her baby, but it wouldn't be murder for that same woman to go into a clinic and have a doctor terminate her pregnancy. I honestly haven't formed a complete opinion about this just yet, but I thought I'd throw that out there.

I know a girl who got pregnant by a guy who used to beat her and stalk her. She finally broke up with him and got a restraining order, but she found that she was pregnant about a month after she obtained the restraining order. Her parents are also mentally (and I suspect) physically abusive. I also suspect that her ex may have raped her at least once. Now, she was 15 when she found out that she was pregnant. She wanted to carry her baby to term and give it up for adoption, but she didn't want anyone to know that she was pregnant, so she had an abortion. An older friend of hers took her home after the procedure. She had to lie to her parents about why she was tired and in pain. At that time, she had no one to talk to or confide in. She was alone through the entire process. She didn't have an abortion as a form of birth control... she did it because she was scared. Looking at her bawling her eyes out as she told me this... it did not cross my mind once that she was a bad person. All I could do was hug her and wish that I had known her when she was going through it. People do things when they're frightened that they may not do otherwise. This is true for all of us. It's been almost two years and I guarantee you that not a day goes by that she isn't haunted by her past. Although I don't agree with abortion, sometimes a girl feels like it's her only option.

Now, I know another woman who has had two abortions for a sick reason. Her reason? Because, around the time of both abortions, her boyfriend did something to make her mad, and aborting his child was a way to get back at him. (Keep in mind that he's not the greatest person around. They're both lunatics and I suppose they deserve each other.) She has two other kids that her grandmother takes care of, and even though she's almost 30, her moral values and sense of responsibility are about as existent as flying pigs. This is the instance in which abortion is used that makes me sick.

(I'm going to address this next bit to both guys and girls, so even though I sound like I'm speaking about girls only, this is addressed both to the guys who say "if I were a girl and I got pregnant..." / "if I got a girl pregnant, I would want her to keep it regardless..." and girls who just say "if I got pregnant...")
To all of those who say "if I were to get pregnant, I could never have an abortion. Even if my parents tried to make me, even if I had to live on the street or live in a home to have my baby, I'd keep it," saying what you'd do "if" and actually being in the situation are nowhere near comparable. My friend also said many of those things. She knew that if she ended up pregnant, there'd be hell to pay at home. She knew that she'd end up in a home or living on the street, and she still said that even through it all, she'd raise a baby if she ended up pregnant. When she thought she might actually be pregnant, she leaned more toward adoption. When she saw those two pink lines and felt the fear that took over her as she thought of everything that would happen, I don't think her personal beliefs changed... but she was frightened beyond belief.
So, following the idea that there are exceptions to every rule, I'm sure some of you would still keep your child despite everything, but some of you would most likely end up having an abortion. You really can't properly assess how you'd react to a situation that you've never been in. Some of you, at the thought of sleeping in an alley or living in a foster home, would change your mind despite what you've said. It's like a constant in math... people form ideas about what they'd do, but when tested, some will act differently based on the circumstances.

I don't support abortion. I do, however, see how some women could see it as their only option. I used to be like "don't fuck if you're not ready to handle the consequences," and even though I still agree, people are gonna have sex regardless of whether or not they're in a position to have and support a child. It's a natural human instinct, and no one on here that's sexually active is ready to have a child. No matter what financial situation a teen is in, the teen years are not ideal to start a family. If people waited until they were in the ideal situation to become parents, nobody would be having sex in the first place. And, from what I've seen, most of the people that scream "abortion is murder!" are in a lot better position (family, finances, support system) than the girls that have had one as a measure of being an only option.

To conclude, I don't support it, but I can see why some women have them. I think that a lot of abortions would be prevented if people would think about how much easier it is to pop a birth control pill than to have an abortion or how much easier it is to change a condom than a diaper.

Those are my (most recent) two cents.

[INFERNO]

I support abortion whole-heartedly. We're all humans, we're all people and we're all a clump of cells. Fetuses are humans and are clumps of cells, however, they are not people. Definitions of what a person is includes sociological, philosophical and legal concepts, such as being able to rationalize, interact with others and perform certain duties. Fetuses can do none of these to the extent that's recognized. Murder applies to killing a human who is a person. The fetus, despite having its own DNA and functioning, is completely dependent upon the mother and as a crude analogy, is parasitic.

When issues of rape and pregnancy occur, I still support abortion because no matter how the female got pregnant, if she is uncomfortable, cannot support or medically is in danger due to complications with the pregnancy, she should have the right to terminate it. In my view, one death is better than two deaths for abortion.

I think abortion is good. We need the stem cells to fix the people we do have and not have even more. The estimated population of the world is approaching 7.5 BILLION! 5 billion is already overpopulation! What happens when the Earth is unable to support the amount of humans there will be? Will we kill people? Will we die of starvation? How many species will be extinct by then?


You're asking questions pertaining to the future where nobody knows the answers, such as how many species will be extinct. Cant answer it because there's no evidence to support the answers given. I do agree with the over-population statement though.


sorry, I hate religion and dumb people.

Why is religion getting smeared in this?

You're not killing a human if you abort, it has not developed enough.

It is a human, it has human DNA, it was from 2 humans and it follows human development. It is not a person though. It's like saying that if I pluck a tomato before it's fully ripened, then it's not a tomato despite being from a tomato plant, having tomato DNA, etc... . If I wait a bit longer, then it is suddenly deemed to be a tomato despite no changes in its DNA.

...who called it. me. *sigh*

My friend, this is a debate sub-forum, debates are going to occur.

[CaptainObvious]

I agree with you 100%, who the fuck are we to deny 1000 of people their lives?

My God, you're right! We should all impregnate women as much as possible to ensure that all females of ripe childbirthing age are constantly pregnant, so as not to deny billions of potential people their chance at life.

Oh wait, it doesn't count until there's a little fetus to get all fuzzy over? Well why not? Fetuses aren't people, they have no conception of the value of their life or indeed their own existence, so how are we denying them anything of value by preventing their conscious life?

But the baby is still dying for one reason or another if, indeed, it is murder. So, if one is willing to overlook it for rape, why not for an accidental pregnancy? This is not my belief on the subject, but it is something to consider.

A fetus is not a person, so its death is not of particular concern, and certainly does not override the mother's personal autonomy.

[Nihilus]

I support abortion wholeheartedly. Because of this one sentence.

Abortion sends the little buggers to God faster.

Less population=good

Less idiot parents=good

They don't suffer on this shithole=good

Abortion=good

I agree with motormouth. Those reasons are good because some of teens get pregnant and most aren't ready to take the responsibility of taking care of a baby.

[Jenna.]

I support abortion 100%. I don't like or want children, I don't want to go through the painful process of pregnancy and labor so if I got pregnant, yes I'd go and have an abortion. I'm not going to stop having sex because of a small chance of becoming pregnant. Most people now have sex for pleasure, not just for reproducing. I would never use abortion as a form of birth control, however, if I became pregnant, that would be what I would do. That's my opinion and nothing anyone can say can change it. Try all you want.

[ltimm]

A fetus is not counted as a person as many of you have said. They're not counted in the population; therefore, they receive no rights.

[Sage]

I, personally, would never have an abortion. No matter the circumstance. Mainly because I do believe that the fetus, however tiny it may be, is still a valuable life with valuable potential.

Having said that, I don't believe that abortions should be illegal. Why? Because women will not stop having abortions simply because some white dudes in Washington say they can't. Just as prohibition didn't stop the consumption of alcohol, or hasn't stopped people from smoking pot. I'd rather have women have abortions in safe hospital environments than in some alley by some guy named bob the butcher.

And those are my two cents on the matter. :)

As far as legality is concerned I agree with you, but I will throw this out there that I think the term "some white dudes in Washington" is pretty loaded.

[CaptainObvious]

As far as legality is concerned I agree with you, but I will throw this out there that I think the term "some white dudes in Washington" is pretty loaded.

And in what way inaccurate? That does more or less characterize the demographic makeup of Washington politicians, particularly the ones who most vehemently denounce abortion.

[Sage]

And in what way inaccurate? That does more or less characterize the demographic makeup of Washington politicians, particularly the ones who most vehemently denounce abortion.

I never said it was inaccurate. I just said it was loaded (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_language).

[Evermore]

And the same is true of every potential being we do not create. Why are you all of a sudden so sentimental because the thing that won't "get a chance at life" has some more genetic material? It's still a clump of matter with absolutely no moral status, until it becomes a person.



Why? Our planet is already rather overpopulated, the most noble thing to do would be to not contribute at all to increasing the population of the planet and instead dedicate one's life to easing the poverty and other deleterious effects it has caused.

Plus, what the hell is with people acting as if taking the "easy way out" is some horrible thing? I drive long distances instead of walk; I take the elevator up tall buildings instead of the stairs; why are those easy ways out not equally condemnable? Because, if the act itself is not morally bad, it does not matter in any way whether or not it's easy. Although, to the extent that it could be argued to matter, easy is normally superior.



That doesn't really make any sense. But in any case, it doesn't matter because "someone" in the streets is (in almost all circumstances) a person; a fetus is not. The moral distinction is incredibly important.


So don't have unprotected sex to begin with. If you make that choice you should be prepared to take care of the child. The easy way out in this situation is immoral because that child will develop into a person. Just because they haven't yet doesn't make it any less wrong. And as said before you're not saving them. Life's what you make it. It's all about how you raise them.

[foof1]

It's not right to use abortion as a birth control policy but if something happens like a person is raped than it should be ok. And men should have no say in abortion because they are not the ones getting pregnant and potentially getting their lives thrown completely off track.

[LoveBullets]

I never said it was inaccurate. I just said it was loaded (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_language).
Perhaps, but I think it more or less describes them correctly :p

[CaptainObvious]

So don't have unprotected sex to begin with. If you make that choice you should be prepared to take care of the child.

This has nothing to do with anything, as I said above. Unless abortion is immoral for reasons other than this, it makes no difference whether it's the "easy" way out or circumventing the consequences of sex. We invented heart surgery to circumvent the consequences of being fat, sedentary and eating shit all our lives, and that's not immoral.

The easy way out in this situation is immoral because that child will develop into a person.

So? Where do you draw the line? If you pull out of a girl is that not immoral too, because had you stayed in you could've created a child? Potential is completely meaningless until it gets to a point where the fetus can be argued to constitute an autonomous being worthy of recognition in our moral community. For most of early pregnancy, the fetus is nothing more than a little clump of tissue; it's not a person, therefore, it deserves no protection. What it will become is entirely irrelevant to what it is.

And as said before you're not saving them. Life's what you make it. It's all about how you raise them.

This has nothing to do with anything, I never argued that you were.

You just repeated all the arguments I pointed out were so invalid, and then refuted a couple of more I didn't make. Did you even bother to read my post?

[Jenna.]

And men should have no say in abortion because they are not the ones getting pregnant and potentially getting their lives thrown completely off track.

THANK YOU. It's the woman's choice in my opinion. If she wants to get an abortion, SO BE IT. It's not the end of the world. Get over it. This planet's already overpopulated. If I got pregnant tomorrow, I'd have an abortion. (Of course I don't have unprotected sex so it would probably be a very slim chance, but still. It can happen.)

[The Batman]

THANK YOU. It's the woman's choice in my opinion. If she wants to get an abortion, SO BE IT. It's not the end of the world. Get over it. This planet's already overpopulated. If I got pregnant tomorrow, I'd have an abortion. (Of course I don't have unprotected sex so it would probably be a very slim chance, but still. It can happen.)

Actually the men should have a say in it, maybe not a big one but they still should be in the conversation about something they helped make. I think that if they both can come to an agreement that they woman doesn't want the child but the man does then he should be held fully responsible for that child once it's born and the woman shouldn't have any kind of parental rights.

[ltimm]

I'm a guy and I believe that the guy should have no say in the matter....it's the woman's body, so leave it at that. You don't own her!!

[2D]

I'm a guy and I believe that the guy should have no say in the matter....it's the woman's body, so leave it at that. You don't own her!!

They should have a say in the matter, it's their kid as well, but ultimately they can't really do anything except voice their opinion.

[Watchfulness]

That is why people should restrain from sexual activities before the age of 18.
I support abortion.
If anyone desires to keep the baby, thenthey should be responsible for the baby's well-being.

[Evermore]

This has nothing to do with anything, as I said above. Unless abortion is immoral for reasons other than this, it makes no difference whether it's the "easy" way out or circumventing the consequences of sex. We invented heart surgery to circumvent the consequences of being fat, sedentary and eating shit all our lives, and that's not immoral.



So? Where do you draw the line? If you pull out of a girl is that not immoral too, because had you stayed in you could've created a child? Potential is completely meaningless until it gets to a point where the fetus can be argued to constitute an autonomous being worthy of recognition in our moral community. For most of early pregnancy, the fetus is nothing more than a little clump of tissue; it's not a person, therefore, it deserves no protection. What it will become is entirely irrelevant to what it is.



This has nothing to do with anything, I never argued that you were.

You just repeated all the arguments I pointed out were so invalid, and then refuted a couple of more I didn't make. Did you even bother to read my post?

I was replying to many people. As far as legality is concerned. I believe it should be legalized but make it much more complex because women use it as a form of birth control. "I don't like this morning sickness so I'll get an abortion." I think they should have they're reason analyzed they should be shown a sonogram of the baby and be told about alternative options such as giving it up for adoption. That would reduce the amount of children being slaughtered greatly. I don't believe in pulling out either. Leave it up to god whether you get a baby or not. If you don't believe in god or REALLY don't want a baby. Simply don't have sex.

[Sapphire]

I was replying to many people. As far as legality is concerned. I believe it should be legalized but make it much more complex because women use it as a form of birth control. "I don't like this morning sickness so I'll get an abortion."It seems to me that you are exaggerating the amount of people who abuse the system. It isn't just to make it difficult for all women when only a select few will try to abuse it.

If you don't believe in god or REALLY don't want a baby. Simply don't have sex.
This right here is completely unjust, ludicrous and it goes against a lot of natural reasons why living beings have sex.

[Evermore]

Children is what come from sex if you don't want children don't have sex. It's common sense.

[Whisper]

Children is what come from sex if you don't want children don't have sex. It's common sense.


Negative.
For allot of species this holds true.
Humanity and a few other primates are far more complicated.
For us especially there's allot more to intimacy than reproduction

[Evermore]

I'm not saying sex is just for reproduction. I'm just saying that it should be only done if you consider children as a possibilty and face it as a couple. Which is why, prostitutes is a no-no. First date? No! First month in relationship? No!! After six months? Sure, okay. Maybe. It's obvious you care for one another. Although by now you should also be maybe even considering marriage.

[Neverender]

And what about rape? So what if you get raped by a 50 year old man with syphillis and HIV? Would you be able to handle bearing the child from your rapist who might die early in childhood from a simple cold?

Surely this is not "god's way". Nor is it truely the "nature of species". A woman needs to have the right to have the embryo removed in our interesting civilization. that or illegalize it and have the kid and shove it in a cereal box at the dump..

Indeed, this was a more emotionally pulling post, but i suspect it was needed to get a point across.

[Antares]

I hate abortion so much. I hate it, hate it, hate it. I despise it with every God damned cell of my being, with every drop of my blood, with every ounce of my soul. I despise abortion more than worst enemy.

I have very personal reasons for feeling this way, but I don't want to write about them right now because it isn't important.

Abortion absolutely sickens me. Saying, "Oh if I/you get pregnant, we'll just kill it" just disgusts me to no ends. Using abortion as birth control is not healthy physically or psychologically, and it is not a mature or responsible approach to sex. It's just disgusting and wrong to think of unborn children as expendable.

But oh sure. These stupid places that actually do them just hand it them out like candy because they think that an unborn child is "just a clump of cells" and it doesn't count as a human being... even though we're all human beings, and we were all just "clumps of cells" in the womb once. In fact, that's still what all of us are: just clumps of cells. Like every other living thing on the planet.

...eh, sorry. I needed to vent. This subject just upsets me so much and I get so angry and depressed when I think about it. :cry:

I dearly want to crucify whoever decided to make it legal in Canada, though.

You have it wrong.
Getting a baby aborted isn't some frivolous choice that people just make because its fun or its a game.
Mothers that choose to get abortions often go through a lot of doubts, depression, and just insanity because they know what they are going to do. They know that its a hard decision.
I have listened to people talk about abortions and such, and they say its the hardest decision they have ever had to make.

So don't parade around like the mothers are heartless and aren't taking this seriously. They take it very seriously, and it is wrong for you to demean them like this.

[Evermore]

And what about rape? So what if you get raped by a 50 year old man with syphillis and HIV? Would you be able to handle bearing the child from your rapist who might die early in childhood from a simple cold?

Surely this is not "god's way". Nor is it truely the "nature of species". A woman needs to have the right to have the embryo removed in our interesting civilization. that or illegalize it and have the kid and shove it in a cereal box at the dump..

Indeed, this was a more emotionally pulling post, but i suspect it was needed to get a point across.

I don't want it illegalized I just believe that a woman should give a descriptive reason why she wants an abortion. View a sonogram of the baby and be made aware of alternative options such as putting the baby up for adoptions. Abortion should be reserved for the special cases that you mentioned or life threatening issues and even then shouldn't be used too often.

You see the adorable baby in my signature? This is my little brother. My mom had kidney problems and wound up in the hospital for a month and a half. Barely able to take care of the baby. She knew about these kidney problems but took the risk anyway so this adorable baby could live today. Potential mothers have already had a taste of life. This baby is still getting used to it. Every time I hear about people freely getting abortions as a way of birth control it makes me want to cry because some baby like this one in my signature is denied his chance.

Sorry for getting all preachy or bitchy on anyone but this is a touchy subject.

[Sapphire]

Humanity and a few other primates are far more complicated.
For us especially there's allot more to intimacy than reproduction
QFT. This is exactly why it is preposterous to tell people that they can't have sex unless they want a child.
I don't want it illegalized I just believe that a woman should give a descriptive reason why she wants an abortion. View a sonogram of the baby and be made aware of alternative options such as putting the baby up for adoptions. Abortion should be reserved for the special cases that you mentioned or life threatening issues and even then shouldn't be used too often.Who would decide if her reasons for wanting an abortion are good enough? What criteria would they be guided by?

I'm still having trouble believing that people use abortion as birth control as much as you are making out. You hear about women who are onto their fifth abortion because it is far from normal.

[Evermore]

No one decides if the reasons good enough there just has to be a reason other then just "I don't like this morning sickness."
They do. Have you watched juno? Prefect example. "Um.. I'm pregnant." "Get an abortion." "Okay."

[Camazotz]

Women have a right to choose whether they want to bear a child. This should hold true in any situation, whether it be rape or even unprotected, consensual sex. While I think having abortions as a back-up birth control is unethical, women should still have this right.

You may ask, "But why don't we give the babies inside them rights?" Understandably, they're not babies, they are not even human beings. Yet. The argument, "You're killing something that will become alive," while correct, is physically equivalent to scratching your arm. You're killing skin cells. You're killing life. Should scratching be illegal?

[Sapphire]

No one decides if the reasons good enough there just has to be a reason other then just "I don't like this morning sickness."Then the system is still open to abuse, is it not?
They do. Have you watched juno? Prefect example. "Um.. I'm pregnant." "Get an abortion." "Okay."
Great debating skills here!

/sarcasm

I'm looking for evidence, not for a work of fiction.

[Evermore]

I knew you'd say something like that. But that kind of thing happens all the time.

[Sapphire]

I knew you'd say something like that. But that kind of thing happens all the time.
If it is so common that people use abortion as a form of birth control then why is it that you can't give me clear evidence of it happening?

I class it to be used as a form of birth control if they clearly didn't take any precautions on a number of occasions, got pregnant as a result and aborted because of it. Or more sinisterly, if they use abortion to control the sex of their children (i.e. aborting a girl because they want a boy).

If precautions have been taken and a pregnancy still occurred then aborting it isn't an example of abortion being used as a form of birth control.

[Evermore]

http://www.contracept.org/abortifacient.php

http://www.beverlylahayeinstitute.org/articledisplay.asp?id=10589&department=BLI&categoryid=dotcommentary&subcategoryid=blifem

and http://www.lifeissues.net/writers/air/air_vol8no1_1995.html

there's the sources you wanted

[Sapphire]

http://www.contracept.org/abortifacient.phpThat's more like it.
While those statistics do look shocking, the source they used has some additional info with (IMO at least) lessens or at least explains it. This is an example:"Forty-six percent of women who have abortions had not used a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant. Of these women, 33% had perceived themselves to be at low risk for pregnancy, 32% had had concerns about contraceptive methods, 26% had had unexpected sex and 1% had been forced to have sex."
If education on contraception and pregnancy were to be improved then a dramatic dent in the number of women who could have prevented an unwanted pregnancy would be made. Might that not be a better route to take than outlawing abortions completely?

http://www.beverlylahayeinstitute.org/articledisplay.asp?id=10589&department=BLI&categoryid=dotcommentary&subcategoryid=blifemThis one, however, is not. It fills the readers head with subjective and biased inferences on the topics of contraception use and reasons for having an abortion. It has no cited references and is clearly the writings of a pro-life woman out to tar the pro-choice cause.

and http://www.lifeissues.net/writers/air/air_vol8no1_1995.htmlThis is from 1995. What use do you suppose a 15 year old article is when looking at the current state of abortion and contraception use?

[Evermore]

I don't want it illegalized I just believe that a woman should give a descriptive reason why she wants an abortion. View a sonogram of the baby and be made aware of alternative options such as putting the baby up for adoptions. Abortion should be reserved for the special cases that you mentioned or life threatening issues and even then shouldn't be used too often.

here

[Sapphire]

here
It occurs to me that getting women to give a "descriptive reason" wouldn't address the issue though.
I mean, at the most what you have proposed will lead to clear pictures as to why they want an abortion to ensure that they are simply not doing it just to get out of the morning sickness with the view that this will lead to abortion only being used in extreme circumstances.
(Especially since you explicitly stated that "No one decides if the reasons good enough")
Could you explain how that would work?

Also, and correct me if I'm wrong here, you haven't considered improving education around the issues of contraception use and abortion and have gone straight for the "loads of women use abortion as a form of contraception so they should have to jump through these hoops before they can get one" approach.
Do you not see the value in education or did you simply not think of it?

I'm still curious about what you hoped to achieve with a 15 year old article and a heavily biased article that is evidently there for propaganda purposes.

[Evermore]

Most women don't realize what they're doing if they see a picture of what they're baby looks like and they have to take the time to think of a reason why(however bullshit it is, no ones going to evaluate it.) then most girls will stop there and either do the mature thing and keep the baby or at least use the alternative options such as putting the baby up for adoption.

Meaning many more people still get a shot at life.

[The Batman]

Most women don't realize what they're doing if they see a picture of what they're baby looks like and they have to take the time to think of a reason why(however bullshit it is, no ones going to evaluate it.) then most girls will stop there and either do the mature thing and keep the baby or at least use the alternative options such as putting the baby up for adoption.

Meaning many more people still get a shot at life.

What makes abortions irresponsible? Why should we let our personal beliefs stop other people from living their life the way they want it? There's a point where you have to separate your emotions from your decisions and think with your head.

[CaptainObvious]

Most women don't realize what they're doing if they see a picture of what they're baby looks like and they have to take the time to think of a reason why(however bullshit it is, no ones going to evaluate it.) then most girls will stop there and either do the mature thing and keep the baby or at least use the alternative options such as putting the baby up for adoption.

Meaning many more people still get a shot at life.

Since I fundamentally don't regard abortion as morally wrong, why would I ever want to implement a policy like that that could only amount to an implicit discouragement and emotional manipulation of women already having to make an extremely difficult decision? If a woman takes abortions lightly, that's her choice.

[Evermore]

No matter what your personal beliefs murder is never okay.

[The Batman]

No matter what your personal beliefs murder is never okay.

That's only if you believe that abortion is murder which I don't believe. Quick question though how do you feel about the death penalty?

[Evermore]

I honestly cannot wrap my head around what makes a fetus not count as a person. It's 3-7 months from being able to breath, eat, and look at it's mother. 10 months to a year and a half away from saying mama. 5 years from going to school and learning the alphabet. 20 years from becoming a contributing member to society.

Just because it's not currently doing the above doesn't make it less of a person.

To answer your question I'm fairly sure the death penalty has been abolished in the u.s. and for that i'm glad.

[Rutherford The Brave]

I honestly cannot wrap my head around what makes a fetus not count as a person. It's 3-7 months from being able to breath, eat, and look at it's mother. 10 months to a year and a half away from saying mama. 5 years from going to school and learning the alphabet. 20 years from becoming a contributing member to society.

Just because it's not currently doing the above doesn't make it less of a person.

To answer your question I'm fairly sure the death penalty has been abolished in the u.s. and for that i'm glad.

That is a pretense, where is the proof?

[CaptainObvious]

Just because it's not currently doing the above doesn't make it less of a person.

Yes, it really, really does. We do not define things based on what they will be or were, we define things based on what they are. Fetuses do not do the things you mentioned, they will. That difference is key.

[Evermore]

Well by killing them you prevent them from living up to the before said things only someone heartless would still kill it knowing everything it could become!

[Sapphire]

Lance, abortion is not murder for the pure fact that until a fetus is viable outside the womb (24 weeks) it is not a person as any of us would understand it.
If born before 24 weeks, it would be underdeveloped in pretty much every single way and wouldn't be able to breathe. It wouldn't even resemble a person around the 11 week marker.

We afford it legal protection once it is viable outside of the womb for this very reason. Granted that a significant number of the 24 week premature babies do not live particularly long, but a significant number do.

To answer your question I'm fairly sure the death penalty has been abolished in the u.s. and for that i'm glad.It has been abolished in some American states but not all.

Well by killing them you prevent them from living up to the before said things only someone heartless would still kill it knowing everything it could become!Chicken eggs have the potential to hatch into chickens so should we stop eating eggs?

What if the woman didn't want the pregnancy because it could exasperate a pre-existing mental illness that she has? Is that heartless?

[CaptainObvious]

Well by killing them you prevent them from living up to the before said things only someone heartless would still kill it knowing everything it could become!

How many fertile women have you had unprotected sex with today? If it's less than a couple, you've deprived potential children of life by not impregnating women as much as possible. You're heartless and horrible!

See how absurd that sounds? Potential alone is not a valid argument for precisely that reason. If you regard it as a valid argument, the conclusions are patently ridiculous.

[Evermore]

Lance, abortion is not murder for the pure fact that until a fetus is viable outside the womb (24 weeks) it is not a person as any of us would understand it.
If born before 24 weeks, it would be underdeveloped in pretty much every single way and wouldn't be able to breathe. It wouldn't even resemble a person around the 11 week marker.

We afford it legal protection once it is viable outside of the womb for this very reason. Granted that a significant number of the 24 week premature babies do not live particularly long, but a significant number do.

It has been abolished in some American states but not all.

Chicken eggs have the potential to hatch into chickens so should we stop eating eggs?

What if the woman didn't want the pregnancy because it could exasperate a pre-existing mental illness that she has? Is that heartless?

People eat unfertilized chcken eggs. It never would have become a chicken. Animals and people are very different people for many but I happen to be a vegan.

How many fertile women have you had unprotected sex with today? If it's less than a couple, you've deprived potential children of life by not impregnating women as much as possible. You're heartless and horrible!

See how absurd that sounds? Potential alone is not a valid argument for precisely that reason. If you regard it as a valid argument, the conclusions are patently ridiculous.

Gosh, I will never win. It all comes down to belief. So, I shall not come back to this thread.

[Rutherford The Brave]

I beg you lance show me the proof or your statement stands moot and as a pretense.

[Sapphire]

People eat unfertilized chcken eggs. It never would have become a chicken. Animals and people are very different people for many but I happen to be a vegan.Ok, you have addressed one point from my post.
Though I would argue that humans have prevented the fertilization of the chicken egg. If humans didn't interfere then the eggs would have a much greater likelihood of becoming baby chicks and (going by your logic) it is wrong, immoral and heartless for people to do that.

But what about the rest of my post?
Surely you have something to say about it since you have such strong views on what is right and moral on this topic.

[Dive to Survive]

That is still no reason for them to never have a chance to have a life like us...
I agree
I support abortion wholeheartedly. Because of this one sentence.

Abortion sends the little buggers to God faster.

Less population=good

Less idiot parents=good

They don't suffer on this shithole=good

Abortion=good
Do you think Earth is that bad? It's our home and we all[I] live here! It doesnt send them to God faster, it kills them before they have a chance!
I hate abortion so much. I hate it, hate it, hate it. I despise it with every God damned cell of my being, with every drop of my blood, with every ounce of my soul. I despise abortion more than worst enemy.

I have very personal reasons for feeling this way, but I don't want to write about them right now because it isn't important.

Abortion absolutely sickens me. Saying, "Oh if I/you get pregnant, we'll just kill it" just disgusts me to no ends. Using abortion as birth control is not healthy physically or psychologically, and it is not a mature or responsible approach to sex. It's just disgusting and wrong to think of unborn children as expendable.

But oh sure. These stupid places that actually do them just hand it them out like candy because they think that an unborn child is "just a clump of cells" and it doesn't count as a human being... even though we're all human beings, and we were all just "clumps of cells" in the womb once. In fact, that's still what all of us are: just clumps of cells. Like every other living thing on the planet.

...eh, sorry. I needed to vent. This subject just upsets me so much and I get so angry and depressed when I think about it. :cry:

I dearly want to crucify whoever decided to make it legal in Canada, though.

[I]Crucify might be a bit much but I do think it's wrong. People act like it's meaningless and as you said, "birth control".
To supporters, spend the 5-10 bucks and get a condom! Maybe some birth control pills, nuvaring something, I don't know but don't kill it before it has a chance! In the case of rape, there are consequences for everything. Have the baby!

[2D]

Do you think Earth is that bad? It's our home and we [I]all[I] live here! It doesnt send them to God faster, it kills them before they have a chance!

So what? We don't need more people anyway.

Crucify might be a bit much but I do think it's wrong. People act like it's meaningless and as you said, "birth control".
To supporters, spend the 5-10 bucks and get a condom! Maybe some birth control pills, nuvaring something, I don't know but don't kill it before it has a chance! In the case of rape, there are consequences for everything. Have the baby![/QUOTE]

Quit yer Bible-thumping nonsense and think.

If I was raped there isn't a chance in hell I would keep the kid. You act like getting raped is some formality.

[ltimm]

In the case of rape, there are consequences for everything. Have the baby!

So the woman should give birth to her rapist's baby even if she doesn't want to? Woman can find other ways to abort a baby. And appenently it's the woman's fault that she was raped in the first place( consequences for everything). Wow. If I understood you correctly, I'd say you have some serious issues.

[CaptainObvious]

In the case of rape, there are consequences for everything. Have the baby!

Yes. The consequence of being raped can be pregnancy. Why does that in any way imply that we should accept that consequence? The consequence of falling down might be a cut; to fix that, we put a bandage upon it. The consequence of walking long distance is becoming tired, so we drive or bike.

The fact that pregnancy is a "consequence" of sex means absolutely nothing. If abortion itself is not immoral - which is what I am arguing - the fact that pregnancy is a predictable consequence of sex is meaningless. You're just using circular argumentation here: we have to agree with your premise that abortion is immoral for it to make any difference that pregnancy is predictable.

[Dive to Survive]

So what? We don't need more people anyway.

Crucify might be a bit much but I do think it's wrong. People act like it's meaningless and as you said, "birth control".
To supporters, spend the 5-10 bucks and get a condom! Maybe some birth control pills, nuvaring something, I don't know but don't kill it before it has a chance! In the case of rape, there are consequences for everything. Have the baby!

Quit yer Bible-thumping nonsense and think.

If I was raped there isn't a chance in hell I would keep the kid. You act like getting raped is some formality.[/QUOTE]
Bible-thumping? I havent included the bible at all!
So the woman should give birth to her rapist's baby even if she doesn't want to? Woman can find other ways to abort a baby. And appenently it's the woman's fault that she was raped in the first place( consequences for everything). Wow. If I understood you correctly, I'd say you have some serious issues.
Consequences arent always bad, consequences may be good or bad. I'm not saying it was the girl/woman's fault.
Yes. The consequence of being raped can be pregnancy. Why does that in any way imply that we should accept that consequence? The consequence of falling down might be a cut; to fix that, we put a bandage upon it. The consequence of walking long distance is becoming tired, so we drive or bike.

The fact that pregnancy is a "consequence" of sex means absolutely nothing. If abortion itself is not immoral - which is what I am arguing - the fact that pregnancy is a predictable consequence of sex is meaningless. You're just using circular argumentation here: we have to agree with your premise that abortion is immoral for it to make any difference that pregnancy is predictable.
Abortion is killing. I'm sharing what I beleive. Is that not what these forums are for? If not please correct me!

[CaptainObvious]

Abortion is killing. I'm sharing what I beleive. Is that not what these forums are for? If not please correct me!

I'm not correcting your sharing of your opinion, I'm correcting the way you construct your argument for that opinion.

[Dive to Survive]

Well then, what are your "suggestions"?

[CaptainObvious]

I would suggest that you stop using the fact that pregnancy is a foreseeable consequence of sex in your arguments. It doesn't matter to anyone unless they already agree with you, so it's pointless.

[Dive to Survive]

I'm not saying its always forseeable. I'm saying that if you do get pregnant should have the baby. I'm expressing what I beleive, I dont expect everyone to agree with me. :)

[Perseus]

I'm not saying its always forseeable. I'm saying that if you do get pregnant should have the baby. I'm expressing what I beleive, I dont expect everyone to agree with me. :)

But why make a raped woman go through the pain after she's been traumatized by the whole rape thing. Sure, you have the right to think abortion is immoral, but if a women gets rape, she shouldn't be obliged to keep the baby because she didn't consent to the sex or anything. Birth control and condoms prevent babies from becoming the fetus, so what's different from stopping the fetus from developing a brain, nervous system, etc?

[Scarface]

i have to support jeff on this one. Abortion is a not a good thing, but bringing a child into this world to unfit parents or even adoption which leads to resentment and a lifetime of searching which in the end could become fruitless. Abortion has physical harm to the body, but i saves a whole lot of suffering for both the child and the parents

[georgiamay]

i think abortion should not be taken lightly, but if a women honestly thinks she cannot support the child, and doesn't want to ruin her body, she should be allowed to choose whether to have the baby. the feotus will not have developed a norvous system at the time it is aborted, so it would not feel a thing.

if a 16 year old got pregnant because the contraception didn't work, for whatever reason, then why should she have to throw her entire life a way, ruining her life, and the child probably wouldn't have the best start in life either.

basically, abortion should NOT be used as a form of contraception, like not using a condom and then just getting an abortion because you couldn't be bothered to take precautions, but the women should get the choice about whether or not she is ready to raise a child.

this is just my opinion.

[Sage]

I'm in favor of abortion, 100%. I don't feel that women should feel miserable and horrible after getting an abortion, and that it should by all means not only be used in cases of both rape and casual sex. Children suck anyway and we have too many of them, never mind poor parents who, despite not wanting to raise a child, would otherwise be forced to anyway. One can say that adoption is a better route to take in the case of unplanned pregnancy, but based on the number of ladies I know who've been mistakenly knocked up, having a fetus in you for nine long months is anything but a walk in the park. Children are a burden on their parents, family, and society, particularly financially though other problems can arise. I see nothing of value in sparing one life to feed upon a half dozen others ruined.

Sex is great. We need more. Children are terrible. We need less.

[Dive to Survive]

But why make a raped woman go through the pain after she's been traumatized by the whole rape thing. Sure, you have the right to think abortion is immoral, but if a women gets rape, she shouldn't be obliged to keep the baby because she didn't consent to the sex or anything. Birth control and condoms prevent babies from becoming the fetus, so what's different from stopping the fetus from developing a brain, nervous system, etc?
But theres a difference between stopping the fertilizing and stopping the fetus. The fetus is already on its way to becoming a person.

I'm in favor of abortion, 100%. I don't feel that women should feel miserable and horrible after getting an abortion, and that it should by all means not only be used in cases of both rape and casual sex. Children suck anyway and we have too many of them, never mind poor parents who, despite not wanting to raise a child, would otherwise be forced to anyway. One can say that adoption is a better route to take in the case of unplanned pregnancy, but based on the number of ladies I know who've been mistakenly knocked up, having a fetus in you for nine long months is anything but a walk in the park. Children are a burden on their parents, family, and society, particularly financially though other problems can arise. I see nothing of value in sparing one life to feed upon a half dozen others ruined.

Sex is great. We need more. Children are terrible. We need less.

Hold on, so you think that we need more sex and less kids? Kids are the future and if everyone stopped having children then eventually we would all die off to be no more. You were once a kid, so why do you think that they are so terrible. You can think what you want but Im more than intrigued. :)

[georgiamay]

But theres a difference between stopping the fertilizing and stopping the fetus. The fetus is already on its way to becoming a person.

well, if the fetus doesn't have a brain or a nervous system, and probably doesnt even know its alive, let alone being able to feel pain, you think that we should let it develop into a person? i mean, i understand why you would think that, but if a women is raped (i know this argument has already been used, i just strongly agree) she should not have to give birth to a person that is a result of an extremely traumatic experience, so doesnt she have the right to say that she doesnt want the fetus to develop into a person, so she aborts the pregnancy before it has a chance to even have a brain to have a thought? i think she definately does.

[Sage]

Hold on, so you think that we need more sex and less kids?
You get a gold star for reading, Billy.

Kids are the future and if everyone stopped having children then eventually we would all die off to be no more.
ITT: Pretend the person you're debating made a completely different point and then disprove it.

You were once a kid, so why do you think that they are so terrible.
Because I was terrible. Kids are terrible, I was a kid, therefore terrible. Duh?

You can think what you want
Really?

[Dive to Survive]

I see where youre coming from. Rape is a really traumatic and scarring thing but its not about the feel that the fetus would have. Its not about what it would feel but that it doesnt have a chance to live. But why would the woman not want the fetus to develop? Not to go through child birth at a young age? Not to have to care for a baby and take on that responsibility? I dont know....

[Dive to Survive]

You get a gold star for reading, Billy.


ITT: Pretend the person you're debating made a completely different point and then disprove it.


Because I was terrible. Kids are terrible, I was a kid, therefore terrible. Duh?


Really?

Wow, look at mr. sarcastic...

[georgiamay]

I see where youre coming from. Rape is a really traumatic and scarring thing but its not about the feel that the fetus would have. Its not about what it would feel but that it doesnt have a chance to live. But why would the woman not want the fetus to develop? Not to go through child birth at a young age? Not to have to care for a baby and take on that responsibility? I dont know....

well, i can think of several reasons...

just think, a 16 year old would not want to have a child because 1) it would ruin their chance to have a descent life, even if they do love their child, they will probably have to drop out of school, and if not, it will atleast severly affect their grades. 2) it would ruin her body. how many 16 year olds are ok with that?

if a woman was raped, she might want an abortion because that baby would probably remind her of the traumatic experience, considering it would have half of the rapists genes. then, there's the 9 months of pregnancy. if the women gives the baby up for adoption or something, she still has to go through the pregnancy. some women are ok with all this though, so they might not want an abortion. But every women has the right to choose whether or not they want to go through all that, and if they don't i see no reason why they shouldn't have an abortion if that is what they choose.

[Sage]

Wow, look at mr. sarcastic...

ITT: Point out the obvious whilst ignoring legitimate counter points raised against you.

[cody2010]

I hate abortion so much. I hate it, hate it, hate it. I despise it with every God damned cell of my being, with every drop of my blood, with every ounce of my soul. I despise abortion more than worst enemy.

I have very personal reasons for feeling this way, but I don't want to write about them right now because it isn't important.

Abortion absolutely sickens me. Saying, "Oh if I/you get pregnant, we'll just kill it" just disgusts me to no ends. Using abortion as birth control is not healthy physically or psychologically, and it is not a mature or responsible approach to sex. It's just disgusting and wrong to think of unborn children as expendable.

But oh sure. These stupid places that actually do them just hand it them out like candy because they think that an unborn child is "just a clump of cells" and it doesn't count as a human being... even though we're all human beings, and we were all just "clumps of cells" in the womb once. In fact, that's still what all of us are: just clumps of cells. Like every other living thing on the planet.

...eh, sorry. I needed to vent. This subject just upsets me so much and I get so angry and depressed when I think about it. :cry:

I dearly want to crucify whoever decided to make it legal in Canada, though.

i seriously can not agree more!! i couldn't have said it better myself!

abortion pisses me off.

[2D]

i seriously can not agree more!! i couldn't have said it better myself!

abortion pisses me off.

This is a debate thread. Mind saying why?

[Dive to Survive]

ITT: Point out the obvious whilst ignoring legitimate counter points raised against you.

So you say those things because you dont have any real answers. Thats a shame bro ;)

[Sage]

So you say those things because you dont have any real answers. Thats a shame bro ;)
*sigh* I'll put my previous post into simpler words so it doesn't go in one of your ears and out the other.

Hold on, so you think that we need more sex and less kids?
Yes.

Kids are the future and if everyone stopped having children then eventually we would all die off to be no more.
I said less children. Not no children.

You were once a kid, so why do you think that they are so terrible.
I never said I wasn't terrible. I was.

You can think what you want
Pretty unnecessary to remind anyone of this during a debate.

[Dive to Survive]

Just because you were terrible doesnt mean everyone else is

[Sage]

Just because you were terrible doesnt mean everyone else is

Deschain: Blahblahblah
Kaname: NO!

I do love Ramblings of the Wise. Pun intended.

[Perseus]

But theres a difference between stopping the fertilizing and stopping the fetus. The fetus is already on its way to becoming a person.

No, not really. In one instance, you're preventing the baby from getting conceived, in the other, you're stopping it from growing into a person. Same thing, if you think about it. In either instance, it never happened.

I understand where you're coming from for the abortion thing, but think about a raped woman. She shouldn't be forced to have something she had no choice for it to be conceived. Sure, you can appose abortion for people who use it as birth control, but someone who was raped shouldn't have to have a burden because it isn't their fault, at all.

And Tim, play nice. :P No need for your pointing out the obvious. :P

[Dive to Survive]

At least DaTrooper is being reasonable, Deschain, you amuse me :)

[Sage]

At least DaTrooper is being reasonable, Deschain, you amuse me :)

I've made my points and pointed out the flaws in your reasoning. Be smug if you like, it bothers me not, but at the end of the day one person's making an ass of their side and one is not.

[Dive to Survive]

Sharing one's thoughts is not being an ass on their side. Im not being smug. Simply explaining what I beleive

[Sapphire]

Sharing one's thoughts is not being an ass on their side.
You've done this with the valid points that Deschain has made?? Wow...I seem to have missed that.

[Disconected]

i support abortion cuz its the smart decision in many situations. my friend got pregnant and she lives in crappy place, her parents don't have money and the dude tht got her pregnant was a complete asshole tht wouldn't have helped her in any way to raise the child. she got the abortion cuz she was only 16. she said she wants to bring a child into a stable environment where she can actually focus on raising the kid instead of being a parents, student, working adult and a teen at the same time

[Sapphire]

my friend got pregnant and she lives in crappy place, her parents don't have money and the dude tht got her pregnant was a complete asshole tht wouldn't have helped her in any way to raise the child. she got the abortion cuz she was only 16. she said she wants to bring a child into a stable environment where she can actually focus on raising the kid instead of being a parents, student, working adult and a teen at the same time
That was a good decision made in a very adult manner on her part.

[Antares]

i support abortion cuz its the smart decision in many situations. my friend got pregnant and she lives in crappy place, her parents don't have money and the dude tht got her pregnant was a complete asshole tht wouldn't have helped her in any way to raise the child. she got the abortion cuz she was only 16. she said she wants to bring a child into a stable environment where she can actually focus on raising the kid instead of being a parents, student, working adult and a teen at the same time

By this story, it still bothers me that people think they have the right to control other peoples lives and tell them what they can and can't do to themselves. Therefore, I hope that all the people that are vehemently against abortion (especially in the first tri) should really think hard about the above quote and why exactly you stand in your position and why it really is nothing compared to what the above girl went through.

[Enternamehere]

I support abortion.

There are over 6.5 billion people on this earth, and I'll tell you some thing: that number is not going to go down. The earth is not going to get bigger either. We need to find a population control somehow. And this is the closest thing we have right now.

Also, what about rape victims?
Should they be responsible for children they did not willingly create?
The answer is no. If you thought yes then you are really fucked up.

(Off topic P.S.- Why do people put Laura was here in their signatures?)

[Obscene Eyedeas]

:locked: please do not bump old threads