Affirmative Action

[Mental]

For those who don't know what affirmative action (aka positive discrimination) is:

The term affirmative action refers to policies that take race, ethnicity physical disabilities, military career, sex, or a person's parents' social class into consideration in an attempt to promote equal opportunity or increase ethnicity or other forms of diversity. The focus of such policies ranges from employment and education to public contracting and health programs

Do you think this is right or wrong, and why?

I'm a little divided on it. I like equal rights for people, but I can't help but feel it's a form of discrimination in it's own right. For example in the UK Police, they've used affirmative action to increase the amount of small/female/black cops, which is great, but in some cases if you were a 6'1" white male fully fit for the job, you wouldn't get in because of this, and that's wrong.

[Sage]

If an individual in a minority is capable of doing the job, they should get the job. Every applicant should be held to the same standards.

[Zazu]

Been looking into this a lot recently in college and I think it is an utter load of bollocks.

If there was no discrimination, there would be no need for this. I say focus more on trying to get rid of the the discrimination than concentrating on affirmative action.

[Antares]

I think it has good intentions, it just sounds really bad.

I think it is a fair idea that to battle negative discrimination, you need to put more of the opposite in. So instead of people not giving jobs, you give people jobs...however I think it is a bit unfair (but on the other hand, negative discrimination is unfair).

I don't think it should be taken off the law books because no one follows it but also because it has a good intent and is a tool to fight back from the discrimination that exists every day.

If there was no discrimination, there would be no need for this.

The problem is there IS discrimination and it will ALWAYS exist (as long as white people are running the world). You can't...really get rid of it, so that is when AA comes into play, to try to combat the negative discrimination that always exists.

[Bric]

It's wrong. The only way to get rid of discrimination is ensuring equal rights for everyone.

You simply CAN'T hire someone because he is black, poor or whatever

Affirmative action actually authorizes discrimination. If someone hires people because they are black, then why can't i NOT hire people because they are black? It doesn't make sense.

There's no positive discrimination. Every way of discrimination is bad and should be combated.

[2D]

The problem is there IS discrimination and it will ALWAYS exist (as long as white people are running the world). You can't...really get rid of it, so that is when AA comes into play, to try to combat the negative discrimination that always exists.

You say that like if any other kind of people were running the world there wouldn't be discrimination. Bullshit.

[Antares]

You say that like if any other kind of people were running the world there wouldn't be discrimination. Bullshit.

Affirmative action is a law in the United States. The majority in the United States is white. Its not hard to notice.

[2D]

Affirmative action is a law in the United States. The majority in the United States is white. Its not hard to notice.

So you're saying in places like Japan and Nigeria there is no discrimination because they aren't run by white people? Just because we have a affirmative action thing doesn't mean we're more racist than anywhere else. It means we're trying to do something about it.

[quartermaster]

Affirmative action, in the case of minorities and, for instance, the university system, is a bad idea because under the pretense of fairness, it becomes inherently unfair for the students who have done the work or have the intellect and/or wherewithal to succeed at such institutions.

How can you honestly weigh what is an element of a student's socio-economic background and actual work ethic? How can you really tell what is nature (in the sense of their own personal work) and what is nurture? You cannot; as such, it will always be inherently unfair and inherently unjust for the government to impose such a thing on universities (public or not). Above all, affirmative action allows the government to be lazy and complacent about its schools; giving a small percentage of each race a "chance," or more appropriately, please their collective consciousness by filling an arbitrary quota, while the rest suffer with their sub-par public-school imposed education.

Ultimately, the issue does not stem from university or employment discrimination, the issue stems from inadequate education. I would argue that this entire issue is just another example of our government not looking at the big picture, not addressing what is most important. What must be addressed is the salient issue at hand, why are these children under performing and not able to get into universities? The answer here, goes down to the elementary level; it is the inadequate schools, which within themselves, could be de jure discrimination (but that is not the scope of my argument).

The government should deal with the faulty education that they are providing these students in public schools, not give these students a hand-out at the university level. Give these students a better education, create better incentives, don't abandon these children to their communities, put more money into these schools etc, so they can actually compete; you do the vast majority of these students no service by giving a few a handout down the line. Sure, you may "feel" better, but you don't solve the problem, and you allow yourself to neglect the rest of the students to poverty or the factory.

[The Batman]

If someone is dumb enough to hire another person that is unqualified because of affirmative action then it's their own damn fault and not the governments. Affirmative action is there for the qualified minorities to have a chance in this country.

[ltimm]

Affirmative action is total BS! If that person is fit for the job then they'll get it. And then if somebody less quaified gets it then that person can sue the employer! ahhh, America! you can basically sue anybody for anything!

[Antares]

So you're saying in places like Japan and Nigeria there is no discrimination because they aren't run by white people? Just because we have a affirmative action thing doesn't mean we're more racist than anywhere else. It means we're trying to do something about it.

Absolutely not. I never said that, I said that Affirmative Action is justifiable because there is a majority that discriminates the minority and to combat that after the Civil Rights era, they instituted AA to help alleviate the discrimination. Combat negative discrimination with positive discrimination.

I doubt that negative discrimination will ever disappear which is why AA is a lasting program.

And even so, AA is over looked a lot. It is not in practice much nowadays anyways.

[quartermaster]

If someone is dumb enough to hire another person that is unqualified because of affirmative action then it's their own damn fault and not the governments. Affirmative action is there for the qualified minorities to have a chance in this country.

The actual data shows it is quite common due to the need to fill quotas and please minority groups; many minorities that were/are allowed into universities (public or not) because of affirmative action, in particular, were/are under qualified compared to their white peers. This is so because affirmative action in many cases takes into account socio-economic factors as possible reasons for their inferior scores and grades. Universities have to tread softly on such issues, as it would seem that without filling the quota, they are being racist etc. Of course, the quota system is a sorry excuse for really "helping" minorities, but it is the way they can defend themselves against accusations of bias. As a matter of fact, Washington needed a law to ensure that such thing would stop happening: "...forbid affirmative actions that promote a 'less qualified' applicant over a 'better qualified' one, but not programs that sought to achieve diversity without consideration of individual merit."

It has happened and continues to happen because of the precariousness of the situation: trying to weigh merit without appearing racist or biased. I am tough on the government in particular because public schools and government organizations have been the most egregious in their affirmative action or quota policies.

[2D]

Absolutely not. I never said that, I said that Affirmative Action is justifiable because there is a majority that discriminates the minority and to combat that after the Civil Rights era, they instituted AA to help alleviate the discrimination. Combat negative discrimination with positive discrimination.

I doubt that negative discrimination will ever disappear which is why AA is a lasting program.

And even so, AA is over looked a lot. It is not in practice much nowadays anyways.

May I ask you what you were trying to say when you said that discrimination will always exist as long as white people are running the world. That seems to be implying that if another race was running the world that there would be no discrimination. Either you yourself are extremely racist or I am confused as hell.

The problem is there IS discrimination and it will ALWAYS exist (as long as white people are running the world). You can't...really get rid of it, so that is when AA comes into play, to try to combat the negative discrimination that always exists.

[Ripplemagne]

Affirmative action is institutionalized racism. Period.

[Severus Snape]

Of course it is wrong. It is racism. Frankly I am stunned people find ways to justify this flagrant abuse of the philosophe of the founding fathers. Every time a black person (or a person of any minority) gets a job, position, or status over a white person simply by the merit of them being black (or what have you) it is a square kick in the balls to Martin Luther King Jr. Honestly I would be insulted if I was a minority and got a job based on the color of my skin as opposed to my merits.