Bullies and Bullying

[Mental]

What do you think of bullies/bullying? Do you think bullying is a bad and damaging thing that serves no good purpose, or do you perhaps think bullying has some kind of benefits? I'm sure most of you think it's bad, but I'm interested to see if anyone has an informed positive opinion on bullying, because I haven't come across one yet. lol.

I'm, of course, against it. I consider it a form of abuse, and whatever "good" that comes out of it, is by far cancelled out by the harm it causes. Some people reckon it thickens your skin (metaphorically speaking), but I don't believe it really does. Many people who become "tough" after being bullied are broken and have simply just adapted to this pretense, as a kind of self-defence mechanism.. not actually toughened up.

Js.

[IowaBoy]

Depends on the situation.

[Mr. Smithers]

Bullies were bullied. Those that were bullied go on to be bullies and the cycle continues.

I was always bullied and became a bully at one point. Then I decided, why am I gonna become something I hate. I always tell people to stand up to bullies. By talking to them or telling an adult. If you don't do anything they are just going to keep going.

[boy.on.laptop]

I have never seen such a stupid question before, the few idiots that do agree there are some positives are most likely bullies themselves who wish to justify their actions. The whole toughening up thing is crap too, if there wasn't bullying their would be nothing to toughen up to.

[Mental]

Depends on the situation.
Elaborate?

I have never seen such a stupid question before, the few idiots that do agree there are some positives are most likely bullies themselves who wish to justify their actions. The whole toughening up thing is crap too, if there wasn't bullying their would be nothing to toughen up to.
Well, what can I say. Believe it or not, there's many people, particularly those with an old-fashioned mindset think that bullying has it's benefits. I'm wondering if there is anyone that has an informed opinion on it.

[Quick_Sylver]

Fezzie, has a point. I was bullied, and I shamefully admit, I was a bully. It has no benefits in my eyes.

[Giles]

I'm the person that said it has some positives. Because it does.
Not Bullies but bullying can be great. If there is an annoying person you know, not a bully; just annoying. And someone bullies them - they shut up pretty fast.

[Mental]

I'm the person that said it has some positives. Because it does.
Not Bullies but bullying can be great. If there is an annoying person you know, not a bully; just annoying. And someone bullies them - they shut up pretty fast.
Or it escalates...

[cherry_boi]

i think bullying is a way for weak people to pick on people who are weak in different ways

only way to fight bullying imo is developing urself into an emotionally healthy and stable, socially apt individual.

there are no benefits in my eyes...it does not "build character" or anything like that...it breeds spiteful, close minded, and emotionally-fragile skeptics, who are afraid to trust in others and themselves

keeping in mind that there is a difference between "bullying" and "putting someone in their place" when they are acting like an idiot ....

[Giles]

Or it escalates...

Or they shut up pretty fast.... It can go either way. I've seen it a few times, it stops fast often.

[Bluearmy]

If you bully somebody, you hurt them emotionally or physically. So I guess if you wanted to hurt somebody you might want to consider bullying.

[Sugaree]

Depends on the situation.

Not exactly the forum to drop into a thread, state something, and leave. Care to elaborate for us?

No, I'm totally against it and this is coming from someone with personal experience with bullies. I was beaten up in school for no reason. Some "tough" kid would just randomly jump me and pretty much leave me in tatters. There was one occassion that he had broken my arm for no reason at all. Bullying has no positives whatsoever. It hurts people not only physically, but also emotionally. The emotional hurt I experienced was so bad that I didn't talk to anybody other than my parents and close friends, and even my close friends were a small group of three others.

After those bad experiences, I came to the conclusion that bullies pick on the weaker persons because they are weak in some way (mostly an emotional problem), so they feel some type of need to push around others. Another conclusion I have is that they have been raised with a bad family life, i.e abusive mother/father or lack of certain family members.

[Sapphire]

I was bullied and I have on a couple of occasions been a bully.
It is a form of abuse and no good can come from it.

I have never seen such a stupid question before, the few idiots that do agree there are some positives are most likely bullies themselves who wish to justify their actions. The whole toughening up thing is crap too, if there wasn't bullying their would be nothing to toughen up to.
We have had someone on here before who tried to assert that bullying is a good thing and he would quite proudly state that he bullied people to help them...

[2D]

I have never seen such a stupid question before, the few idiots that do agree there are some positives are most likely bullies themselves who wish to justify their actions. The whole toughening up thing is crap too, if there wasn't bullying their would be nothing to toughen up to.

Ignorant.

So, you're basically saying that we need not improve ourselves in any way. At least that's what it sounds like you're implying.

[Jenna.]

Who could actually think that bullying is a GOOD thing? It's awful. It's done by a bunch of dickweed little brats who think they're being cool.

[boy.on.laptop]

Ignorant.

So, you're basically saying that we need not improve ourselves in any way. At least that's what it sounds like you're implying.

Rubbish, just like your blankent statement. There is always room for improvement I just do not believe bullying is in any way shape or form usefull in improving ourselves.

[2D]

I still stand by the fact that if you're not going to learn how to deal with bullies now then when can you? Trying to argue a point using an ideal world scenario doesn't work. This world is tough, and the toughest people usually come out on top. I'm not saying that everyone should bully everyone, I'm saying that sometime you're going to have to tough it out and drudge through life, so why not just learn young?

Being a bully does not help you in life. But overcoming an obstacle, eg. a bully, is helpful.

Cheers

[Quick_Sylver]

I still stand by the fact that if you're not going to learn how to deal with bullies now then when can you? Trying to argue a point using an ideal world scenario doesn't work. This world is tough, and the toughest people usually come out on top. I'm not saying that everyone should bully everyone, I'm saying that sometime you're going to have to tough it out and drudge through life, so why not just learn young?

Being a bully does not help you in life. But overcoming an obstacle, eg. a bully, is helpful.

Cheers


Meaning-Being the punching bag and punching back helps

[Mental]

Or they shut up pretty fast.... It can go either way. I've seen it a few times, it stops fast often.
Well, what is your definition of 'annoying'? Because that can mean anything. If someone's deliberately being annoying, they're probably teasing/bullying you anyway. But how do you personally mean to bully them? To tease back or start tripping them up, bashing their heads against walls, making fun of their mother, etc?

I was bullied and I have on a couple of occasions been a bully.
It is a form of abuse and no good can come from it.


We have had someone on here before who tried to assert that bullying is a good thing and he would quite proudly state that he bullied people to help them...
Who/where? I'm quite interested in reading that.

I still stand by the fact that if you're not going to learn how to deal with bullies now then when can you? Trying to argue a point using an ideal world scenario doesn't work. This world is tough, and the toughest people usually come out on top. I'm not saying that everyone should bully everyone, I'm saying that sometime you're going to have to tough it out and drudge through life, so why not just learn young?

Being a bully does not help you in life. But overcoming an obstacle, eg. a bully, is helpful.

Cheers
OK. Thanks for your input. But I think there are more.. healthier ways to tough up to the world than being picked on. The world isn't a spotless glamorous place, but it sure isn't all darkness either. What bullies do to you at school, is full on illegal in the workplace (although it happens) and if a gang of boys decide to kick the shit out of you on the street, then you can get them charged with Assault or Grevious Bodily Harm by the Police.

I've been both bullied and a bully. When I was 10-11, I picked on two girls for being fat, and a lad until I was 13 for being a 'psycho' (because he'd kick tables over or attack people if they pissed him off). I didn't even realise I was a bully, I just thought it was a bit of harmless fun, and plus my friends did it and I found it hilarious when one of the girls parents wrote a big list of names to the headteacher and got us all kept in detention one breaktime. But in retrospect, I don't think what I did ever helped any of them, the boy was eventually sent to another school because he couldn't handle stress, and one of the girls got pregnant at a young age. That isn't because of me/us, but they didn't exactly handle it well, so there was really no benefits because of that.

That all being said, I was bullied myself for three years in a row, and even worse for one stupid mistake I made, and while I ignored it and handled it fairly well besides going into depression. I don't see how I became any more of a tougher person. :/ js. The only positive I think of my experience as, is that I got paid back for being an idiot myself, because it makes me feel guilty even now. But my experience isn't applicable to all bullied victims, because most people who have been bullied have never been bullies themselves.

I don't know anyone who's really a better person for being bullied, having said that, though.

By the way, people that are voting, please make a post too. Especially if you're voting the first option. :) kplnx.

[Sapphire]

Who/where? I'm quite interested in reading that.It's in this thread (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=42398)

The effects of bullying include depression, low self esteem, suicide attempts, bullying others and so on. These are not indicators of a "tough" person. They are indicators of someone experiencing a great deal of difficulty.

I was bullied pretty solidly for 10 consecutive years. I hadn't bullied anyone before they started.
I went on to bully a couple of people afterward though.
Thankfully, I don't do it anymore since I am more in control of my emotions and my life now.

People grow strong in nurturing and supportive environments, not cruel, abusive ones.

[Mental]

It's in this thread (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=42398)
Oh.. thanks. Didn't realise there was already a bullying thread, but it got locked. Pity I missed it by a few months. Quite interesting, though.

The effects of bullying include depression, low self esteem, suicide attempts, bullying others and so on. These are not indicators of a "tough" person. They are indicators of someone experiencing a great deal of difficulty.

I was bullied pretty solidly for 10 consecutive years. I hadn't bullied anyone before they started.
I went on to bully a couple of people afterward though.
Thankfully, I don't do it anymore since I am more in control of my emotions and my life now.

People grow strong in nurturing and supportive environments, not cruel, abusive ones.
Agreeeeeeeeeed.

Still, I seriously don't know anybody who has came out strong 'cuz of bullying. From my experience, everyone I know that was bullied became depressed, antisocial or bullies themselves. Many people that have said stuff like "bullying makes you stronger" or "they [victims] should just toughen the hell up" are ironically people who have never experienced it, even haven't been bullies themselves in many cases.

[NeedyTeen]

bullies are horrible! I'm constantly being bullied at school! It's annoying and mean! I of course ignore it and be tough but sometimes I just feel like bursting out in tears

[Mental]

bullies are horrible! I'm constantly being bullied at school! It's annoying and mean! I of course ignore it and be tough but sometimes I just feel like bursting out in tears
I know this is the wrong place and I'm going off/t for a second, and you've probably heard this 100x before, but you don't have to put up with it. Have you did anything to stop it? Leave it me in PM form if ya like.

[Chaos]

I remember this kid in my class used to want to beat me up for no reason at all. However a few weeks later he got expelled because they caught him carrying a BB gun and this wasn't his 1st time. He not only got expelled from the school, but the whole district. When the teacher said that I just wanted to scream saying "Yes! Awesome!" Anyway the teacher said that his step father was really mean that's probably why he was bullying everyone

[boy.on.laptop]

I still stand by the fact that if you're not going to learn how to deal with bullies now then when can you? Trying to argue a point using an ideal world scenario doesn't work. This world is tough, and the toughest people usually come out on top. I'm not saying that everyone should bully everyone, I'm saying that sometime you're going to have to tough it out and drudge through life, so why not just learn young?

Being a bully does not help you in life. But overcoming an obstacle, eg. a bully, is helpful.

Cheers


First point I know I am being pretenious but you did not "stand by" anything you simply called me ignorant and that I thought humans could not improve themselves that is not really stating that bullying will improve people. I am not disagreeing with you that SOMETIMES bullying can help people get over tough times in the future but does that make it acceptable? Many women who have breast cancer find that if they got over the first lot of treatment they may feel stronger going into the second but very few. Just because bullying can have some positive effects for some people does not make it acceptable or justiofy the actions of the people doing it.

But I guess I am sure that you, myself and all the others on here that with our infinite teenage wisdom have some point bullied someone in the sole purpose so they can improve themselves. Yeah right,

thank you I always appreciate some insight to other people's convictions(no sacarsm intented).

[StateRights]

i belive that bullying can help toughen u up for challenges in life. everyone knows that life aint fair and you cant get rid of bullying so every1 who gets bullied should learn 2 stand up for themselfs cuz if they dont they will get walked over by other ppl in life such as their boss at the work place.i know some ppl may disagree with this, but SOME people bring bullying on themselfs anyway. i am not homophobic but many people in life are so if sum1
is gay, lesbian or bisexual they shud not flaunt it, cos that is ASKING 4 trouble. theres a boy at my school who is gay and in the guys bathroom he was caught reading a gay magazine nd the other guys tore it off him and ripped it up and flushed his head down the toilet. now that was harsh but he should have known better than 2 do that in a public place.

i admit ive been both a bully and bullyed by someone and im thankful for both. the guys and girls who bullyed me doesnt realize they helped me,but i finally learned 2 stop wining wen things go wrong and to keep myself in check. i finally stood up for myself against a bully and kicked his a double s.
and the kid i bullyed stop being a wimp and finally stood up against me and now he is a better person and we respect eachother i know sum ppl get deprest because of bullying and sum even go crazy and kill people or themselfs, but in my opinion, they r not very strong ppl. if they cannot handle a few people calling them silly names den how r they going 2 get thru life?

this is all just my opinion so plz dont bash me. just dabate.

EDIT - Again, why the Bad Rep? i see whoever did that doesnt have a reply for me
:rolleyes:

I love u too

[woody92]

I have mixed feelings on this because I have been bullied all my life and allways will be bullied because I am diffrent from the rest. I have had a hard time with them but there were (in my eyes) some benifits but not as many as negativies so that pusses out the positives all together (thats why I have voted that there are no benifits at all).

These are the positives:
- I wouldnt be as strong as I am today. In some people it caan make them stronger.
- I would probably be a bully myself. (I dont want that at all!). Some people wwould be bullys themselves because they would not know what the feeling is like to be bullied themselves. If I didnt know how it feels to be bullied, (I will be honest) I think that I too would be one! Although now I have thought about it I knew someone that bullied me at school when I lived in the UK and they were beaten by their parents (all their life). So this isnt strictly true!

EVERYONE knows all the negatives form the post above!

[Mental]

i belive that bullying can help toughen u up for challenges in life. everyone knows that life aint fair and you cant get rid of bullying so every1 who gets bullied should learn 2 stand up for themselfs cuz if they dont they will get walked over by other ppl in life such as their boss at the work place.i know some ppl may disagree with this, but SOME people bring bullying on themselfs anyway. i am not homophobic but many people in life are so if sum1
is gay, lesbian or bisexual they shud not flaunt it, cos that is ASKING 4 trouble. theres a boy at my school who is gay and in the guys bathroom he was caught reading a gay magazine nd the other guys tore it off him and ripped it up and flushed his head down the toilet. now that was harsh but he should have known better than 2 do that in a public place.
Dude, nobody I knew at school that's gay or bisexual "flaunts" it. They shouldn't have to hide who they are just because they might get bullied by some ignorant school kids. They have a right to be who they are without any fear of hassle.

i admit ive been both a bully and bullyed by someone and im thankful for both. the guys and girls who bullyed me doesnt realize they helped me,but i finally learned 2 stop wining wen things go wrong and to keep myself in check. i finally stood up for myself against a bully and kicked his a double s.
and the kid i bullyed stop being a wimp and finally stood up against me and now he is a better person and we respect eachother
Life isn't as bad as people make out.. I know it's not all flowers and bunnies, but it's not all bleak and dark either. As I said before in this thread, there really is no need for bullying. If you go to work, your manager and fellow workers can't just trip you up or rugby tackle you or take out their phones and take pictures of you being beaten up. They'd be:

1. Arrested for harassment/assault/GBH/other similar charges
2. Sacked from their job

i know sum ppl get deprest because of bullying and sum even go crazy and kill people or themselfs, but in my opinion, they r not very strong ppl. if they cannot handle a few people calling them silly names den how r they going 2 get thru life?
Suicidal people are not "crazy". That's an ignorant statement. You've clearly not been severely bullied enough to experience real depression and suicidal thoughts. It's nothing to do with being strong and weak, because people who bully aren't strong. If they were strong, physically or mentally, they wouldn't need to bully 'weaker' people. Nobody emerges from bullying any stronger than they were. That's a total myth. The results of being continuously bullied are destructive.

I'd also love to see you tell the family and friends to their faces that their son or daughter who committed suicide as a direct/indirect result of bullying as 'weak'.

[woody92]

Dude, nobody I knew at school that's gay or bisexual "flaunts" it. They shouldn't have to hide who they are just because they might get bullied by some ignorant school kids. They have a right to be who they are without any fear of hassle.

I dont think that people "flaunt" about being gay neither. and I also think that people should be who they are and not have to worried about being bullied over it, BUT the fact is that they are!

Life isn't as bad as people make out.. I know it's not all flowers and bunnies, but it's not all bleak and dark either. As I said before in this thread, there really is no need for bullying. If you go to work, your manager and fellow workers can't just trip you up or rugby tackle you or take out their phones and take pictures of you being beaten up. They'd be:

1. Arrested for harassment/assault/GBH/other similar charges
2. Sacked from their job

No life isnt as bad as people think it is.
No there isnt any reason for people to bully others, but they do!

It's nothing to do with being strong and weak, because people who bully aren't strong. If they were strong, physically or mentally, they wouldn't need to bully 'weaker' people. Nobody emerges from bullying any stronger than they were. That's a total myth. The results of being continuously bullied are destructive.

your right they need to bully to feel like they are on top of everyone else like they are the best. As I said befor I knew someone who was bullied themselves but then went to school and bullied me. well I think that its the way your brought up, so if you were bullied you could be a bully your selves. However there are people whom chose to bully for the "fun" of it.

I'd also love to see you tell the family and friends to their faces that their son or daughter who committed suicide as a direct/indirect result of bullying as 'weak'.

Yea that would be so tough to do! I think if anyone told them that, they would be throun out the house (I wouldnt do it!)

[StateRights]

Yes i have been badly bullied for the person that said i wasent. i was xcluded from everyone and people would steal my stuff and threten to beat me up. it happened to me because i would never stand up for myself and when i finally did it stopped. even though them bullies did not intend to help me they did and i am thankful becuase now I deal with my problems by standing up for what is right and dont let people walk all over me ok.

i kno there are other ways of dealin with problems and stress but there is nothing better then life experience with people who try 2 walk all over us. and im sorry 2 say that gay people arnt liked and many gay people would make there lives so much easier if they didnt go telling everyone and wearing makeup. it offends christians and people with traditional morals. also if ur a nerd bullys will help you toughen up and look more like a man. bullying is a life skill. and anyway even if you wanted to end it you couldnt

survival of the fittest

[StateRights]

I agree with this british paper on the subject 100% (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1028650/Children-need-toughen-mentally-avoid-bullying-succeed-later-life.html)

[Sapphire]

i kno there are other ways of dealin with problems and stress but there is nothing better then life experience with people who try 2 walk all over us. and im sorry 2 say that gay people arnt liked and many gay people would make there lives so much easier if they didnt go telling everyone and wearing makeup. it offends christians and people with traditional morals. also if ur a nerd bullys will help you toughen up and look more like a man. bullying is a life skill. and anyway even if you wanted to end it you couldnt

survival of the fittestPeople shouldn't have to hide who they really are just so people with rigid, old fashioned morals aren't offended!

I agree with this british paper on the subject 100% (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1028650/Children-need-toughen-mentally-avoid-bullying-succeed-later-life.html)
I know Dr Clough (the psychologist in this article) and I can tell you straight away that he does not condone bullying and that he does not believe that bullying leads to mental toughness.
Mental toughness involves having good self confidence and feeling like you are in control of your life and your emotions as well as viewing challenges as opportunities and having a high level of commitment. Now, what part of that sounds like someone who is being bullied, has been bullied or is a bully themselves?

And for future reference, if you want a good newspaper article from the UK - don't pick the Daily Mail.

[Mental]

Yes i have been badly bullied for the person that said i wasent. i was xcluded from everyone and people would steal my stuff and threten to beat me up. it happened to me because i would never stand up for myself and when i finally did it stopped. even though them bullies did not intend to help me they did and i am thankful becuase now I deal with my problems by standing up for what is right and dont let people walk all over me ok.

i kno there are other ways of dealin with problems and stress but there is nothing better then life experience with people who try 2 walk all over us. and im sorry 2 say that gay people arnt liked and many gay people would make there lives so much easier if they didnt go telling everyone and wearing makeup. it offends christians and people with traditional morals. also if ur a nerd bullys will help you toughen up and look more like a man. bullying is a life skill. and anyway even if you wanted to end it you couldnt

survival of the fittest
That's like.. the best thing I've ever heard bullying described as.. (sarcasm). Oh, and I still don't think there's anything strong about bullying, whether surviving it or being the bully. People with high self-esteem don't need to bully, in fact they don't need that sort of destructive "power" at all.

If there were no bullies, there wouldn't be anything we need to tough up to, tbh. People shouldn't have to learn to stand up for themselves just because of bullies. It destroys people.

[Triceratops]

The negative aspects that come from bullying pretty much outweigh these so-called "positive" aspects, that some of you seem to support; the way I view it, bullying only causes emotional pain, low self-worth, aggravations and an increase in suicidal tendencies. It shouldn't be accpeted nor tolerated, and should be dealt with efficiently.

As a matter of fact, the result of bullying is more likely to cause the victim to be more anxious, fragile and easily intimidated by others around them, rather than to toughen them up. There are more beneficial and effective ways to gain emotional strength - bullying is just a pathetic excuse.

bullying is a life skill. and anyway even if you wanted to end it you couldnt

survival of the fittest

WTF.

[StateRights]

ok.. mental and pandora.. i may have worded that wrong. but what im saying is. that bullying can toughen you up.. simple way to say it. but anyways, sapphire, thats cool you know that guy. but what should gays expect if they flaunt themselves in a homophobic society? a pat on the back? no. they should keep it to themselves. i dont go around telling people im straight so people shouldnt go round telling everyone their proud of being gay or bi. i mean yeah you have the right to, but you should expect to be bullied. bullies are the best reflection of our society in general. so people should heed their advice because it helps people in the long term. the US military doesnt let gays be open via Dont Ask Dont Tell and gays and lesbians serve proudly as any other serviceman/woman. do u know why that is? because people in life are homophobic and it will obstruct military discipline. i should know because my dad is a LT in the United States Navy and these are his views himself. DADT actually STOPS homophobic bullying!! its a damn good thing.

my advice to ppl being bullied is not to either suck it up or kick your bullies a-s-ses. because if u dont u will always be walked over in life. if ur a nerd that doesnt fight then u should change and become more manly or at least learn 2 defend urself. do not whine to ur parents or teachers or friends because u will just get it worse ten fold. Otherwise u will be walked over like a dirty welcome mat for the rest of ur life. does bullying feel nice? hell no. but it is necesary to take advice and deal with it urself.

if u get depressed or try to commit suicide coz your being bullied and do nothing about it what do u expect? dont be a coward and stick up 4 urself!

[Sapphire]

but anyways, sapphire, thats cool you know that guy. but what should gays expect if they flaunt themselves in a homophobic society? a pat on the back? no. they should keep it to themselves. i dont go around telling people im straight so people shouldnt go round telling everyone their proud of being gay or bi. i mean yeah you have the right to, but you should expect to be bullied.
Society as a whole isn't homophobic, a portion of people that make up society are homophobic. No one has the right to persecute another person because they don't like their sexuality, race or religion. Everyone has the right to be who they are without persecution and so they should expect to be treated without persecution.
To say that they should expect to be bullied because some of the people out there don't like who they are is ridiculous and ignorant.

bullies are the best reflection of our society in general. so people should heed their advice because it helps people in the long term. the US military doesnt let gays be open via Dont Ask Dont Tell and gays and lesbians serve proudly as any other serviceman/woman. do u know why that is? because people in life are homophobic and it will obstruct military discipline. i should know because my dad is a LT in the United States Navy and these are his views himself. DADT actually STOPS homophobic bullying!! its a damn good thing.Bullies are the worst reflection of society since they hurt others for selfish reasons. Bullies do not bully in order to help others, they do it for themselves.
The armed forces are different from the rest of us since they literally break everyone down and rebuild them so that they can do the job properly.
Just because bullying occurs does not mean that it is a good thing or that people should pretend to be someone else in order to avoid it. We are who we are and we should be able to be ourselves without fearing how others will react to that.

It does confuse me when you say that bullying is a good thing and then go on to say that it is a damn good thing that your dad stops bullying from going on.

my advice to ppl being bullied is not to either suck it up or kick your bullies a-s-ses. because if u dont u will always be walked over in life. if ur a nerd that doesnt fight then u should change and become more manly or at least learn 2 defend urself. do not whine to ur parents or teachers or friends because u will just get it worse ten fold. Otherwise u will be walked over like a dirty welcome mat for the rest of ur life. does bullying feel nice? hell no. but it is necesary to take advice and deal with it urself.

if u get depressed or try to commit suicide coz your being bullied and do nothing about it what do u expect? dont be a coward and stick up 4 urself!
You have obviously made a mistake in this last bit since you are contradicting yourself and I don't think you intend to do that.

Advocating macho man stereotypes won't get you anywhere in this debate. Just because you deem it to be the only way to deal with bullying doesn't make it so.
Speaking out about abuse (and do not be fooled - bullying is a form of abuse) is very important. The proverb "a problem shared is a problem halved" is very applicable to those who are being bullied. To say that those who are being bullied only "whine" about it is short sighted and to say that people shouldn't talk about it since it is even more ignorant. Talking about what is going on and then trying to come up with ways to improve the situation is a good thing.

People who don't physically fight back are not continuously walked all over.
Look at Gandhi and Martin Luther King. Two very famous pacifists who successfully stood up to oppression without physically defending themselves or attacking their oppressors.
So your whole "nerd" example is null and void.

And I am still waiting for you to address this:
Mental toughness involves having good self confidence and feeling like you are in control of your life and your emotions as well as viewing challenges as opportunities and having a high level of commitment. Now, what part of that sounds like someone who is being bullied, has been bullied or is a bully themselves?

[BlackBetty]

i belive that bullying can help toughen u up for challenges in life. everyone knows that life aint fair and you cant get rid of bullying so every1 who gets bullied should learn 2 stand up for themselfs cuz if they dont they will get walked over by other ppl in life such as their boss at the work place.i know some ppl may disagree with this, but SOME people bring bullying on themselfs anyway. i am not homophobic but many people in life are so if sum1
is gay, lesbian or bisexual they shud not flaunt it, cos that is ASKING 4 trouble. theres a boy at my school who is gay and in the guys bathroom he was caught reading a gay magazine nd the other guys tore it off him and ripped it up and flushed his head down the toilet. now that was harsh but he should have known better than 2 do that in a public place.

i admit ive been both a bully and bullyed by someone and im thankful for both. the guys and girls who bullyed me doesnt realize they helped me,but i finally learned 2 stop wining wen things go wrong and to keep myself in check. i finally stood up for myself against a bully and kicked his a double s.
and the kid i bullyed stop being a wimp and finally stood up against me and now he is a better person and we respect eachother i know sum ppl get deprest because of bullying and sum even go crazy and kill people or themselfs, but in my opinion, they r not very strong ppl. if they cannot handle a few people calling them silly names den how r they going 2 get thru life?

this is all just my opinion so plz dont bash me. just dabate.

EDIT - Again, why the Bad Rep? i see whoever did that doesnt have a reply for me
:rolleyes:

I love u too

If you claim you are not homophobic, then why are you posting that they shouldn't "come out" in a public place? What the hell do you want them to do?? Keep that they are gay hidden for ever in the closet when they goto the store or school?? It's a free country, and the people can be gay strait, bi, or whatever they want. What is it too the people that don't like it.?

[Mental]

Well, Lol, none of you are going to get any rebuttals now, now that he's been banned before he could answer. Shame, really, I was actually quite interested to read his rebuttals if he had any.

I know what's trying to say. But I disagree, even so. While it may be easier to hide it if you're gay and more convenient, it's still just wrong to be forced into that.

[Jean Poutine]

Bullying reinforces character. As long as they stick to calling you a fag super homo asshole, I think it's fine.

I was ostracized all my high school years for showing talent in almost every academic subject. It was just jealousy. I was already resilient, and I became tougher mentally, and certainly not a bully. Silly, thoughtless insults do not phase me at all. If that's all they have to hit me with, then I must be doing something right, since they can't call me on any real wrongdoing.

Stand up to bullies. They're just dumb kids who don't know anything better to make themselves feel better about their own pitiful shortcomings.

It becomes unacceptable when it crosses the line into physical altercations. I never suffered from it myself, because I have a medium height and stocky build and thus look somewhat intimidating.

[Sapphire]

Mental, he never actually addressed points put to him properly so you would have just been left waiting indefinitely lolIt becomes unacceptable when it crosses the line into physical altercations.
Why is that the only case in which it becomes unacceptable?

[Jean Poutine]

Why is that the only case in which it becomes unacceptable?

Gangbeating someone up doesn't teach anything about character.

[Sapphire]

Gangbeating someone up doesn't teach anything about character.
Whereas systematically abusing them verbally teaches them everything about character....

/sarcasm

[Jove]

Whereas systematically abusing them verbally teaches them everything about character....

/sarcasm

Certainly it does. It teaches them that not everyones opinion of you matters and that sometimes the people that think that their opinion is important to you (when it's so blatantly meant to be offensive) are just plain tools that you really, really shouldn't give a crap about.

[Mental]

Certainly it does. It teaches them that not everyones opinion of you matters and that sometimes the people that think that their opinion is important to you (when it's so blatantly meant to be offensive) are just plain tools that you really, really shouldn't give a crap about.
I don't think it's that simple, to be honest. If someone comes up to you and throws a bag of untrue insults on you.. yeah you can ignore it and it won't effect you as a once-off. But when these insults become a regular occurance, they will eventually begin to degrade your self-esteem and some people may begin to believe what their bullies are saying.

For example, a person of normal weight is called "fat" or "fatty" in school/college constantly by a group of people will eventually begin to believe they need to lose weight and start exercising heavily or restricting their eating, and may even develope anorexia.

[Jove]

I don't think it's that simple, to be honest. If someone comes up to you and throws a bag of untrue insults on you.. yeah you can ignore it and it won't effect you as a once-off. But when these insults become a regular occurance, they will eventually begin to degrade your self-esteem and some people may begin to believe what their bullies are saying.
.

If the insults truly didn't bother you the first time why should they bother you subsequent times?

[Mental]

If the insults truly didn't bother you the first time why should they bother you subsequent times?
If an insult doesn't bother you the first time, doesn't mean it won't bother you after it's been said so many times. People who are constantly insulted because.. for example .. they're "fat", "ugly", "have bad breath", "need a wash", etc. may begin to believe their bullies and think that by somehow changing, for example eating less in hope of losing weight or washing themselves to the point of obsession, that their bullies will stop and leave them alone. Of course this isn't true, because the bullies will find another way to belittle them.

I'm not exactly sure why it is, as I'm not amazing at psychology, but I do know from experience that once something, even if it's initially untrue and doesn't bother you the first time, can gnaw at your self-esteem and the way you view yourself if you're constantly belittled because of it.

[Sapphire]

Certainly it does. It teaches them that not everyones opinion of you matters and that sometimes the people that think that their opinion is important to you (when it's so blatantly meant to be offensive) are just plain tools that you really, really shouldn't give a crap about.That happens once they are in the healing process and so your argument is void.
The direct effects of bullying (not those of the healing process afterward) are detrimental and include a loss in confidence, self esteem as well as depression.
The healing process has the direct effects of restoring and strengthening a persons self confidence, self esteem, ability to cope and general happiness.

If the insults truly didn't bother you the first time why should they bother you subsequent times?
This question shows you know little about how people truly are.
Verbal abuse over a significant period of time has very profound effects.

[Jove]

This question shows you know little about how people truly are.
Verbal abuse over a significant period of time has very profound effects.

In my experience, The only power bullies have is the power you give them.

Generally they want to upset you, if they get a reaction it spurs them on. Am I the only person who doesn't find it remotely hard to not give it to them?

Edit: Also, exactly this.



Silly, thoughtless insults do not phase me at all. If that's all they have to hit me with, then I must be doing something right, since they can't call me on any real wrongdoing.

Stand up to bullies. They're just dumb kids who don't know anything better to make themselves feel better about their own pitiful shortcomings.

[woody92]

In my experience, The only power bullies have is the power you give them.

Generally they want to upset you, if they get a reaction it spurs them on. Am I the only person who doesn't find it remotely hard to not give it to them?

Edit: Exactly this.


I can agree with you here! It is the power that you give them! IMO!

Sorry Sapphire!

[Mental]

In my experience, The only power bullies have is the power you give them.

Generally they want to upset you, if they get a reaction it spurs them on. Am I the only person who doesn't find it remotely hard to not give it to them?

Edit: Also, exactly this.
I've been bullied, and I did the usual "ignore them" trick, and I can safely say that it doesn't always work with all bullies. Some bullies pick on your for the sake of it, they don't care if you give a reaction or not. They'll still constantly belittle you, regardless, and trust me, over time that begins to take it's toll on you.

Plus, there's also mental bullying where people can bully you without even doing anything directly to you. They can have everybody ignore you, or exclude you from group work, or refuse to sit by you, spread rumours about you, etc. You may think "oh who cares?" but being constantly isolated can become distressing. I've seen this happen to people a few times.

You can't really generalise what motivates bullies to bully people. I know some do it to get a "funny" reaction out of people, but definitely not all of them.

[Jove]

I've been bullied, and I did the usual "ignore them" trick, and I can safely say that it doesn't always work with all bullies. Some bullies pick on your for the sake of it, they don't care if you give a reaction or not. They'll still constantly belittle you, regardless, and trust me, over time that begins to take it's toll on you.


You can't really generalise what motivates bullies to bully people. I know some do it to get a "funny" reaction out of people, but definitely not all of them.

On you maybe, not to me (and don't file me under that bollocks tough guy archetype in the OP please)

If a bully wants to belittle me, thats great, they can keep going for as long as they want because they may as well be talking to my ballsack. That, is how much I care. I don't listen to them, in fact, my ballsack probably cares more than I do about what they want to say.

[woody92]

I've been bullied, and I did the usual "ignore them" trick, and I can safely say that it doesn't always work with all bullies. Some bullies pick on your for the sake of it, they don't care if you give a reaction or not. They'll still constantly belittle you, regardless, and trust me, over time that begins to take it's toll on you.

Plus, there's also mental bullying where people can bully you without even doing anything directly to you. They can have everybody ignore you, or exclude you from group work, or refuse to sit by you, spread rumours about you, etc. You may think "oh who cares?" but being constantly isolated can become distressing. I've seen this happen to people a few times.

You can't really generalise what motivates bullies to bully people. I know some do it to get a "funny" reaction out of people, but definitely not all of them.

You have a point here to so i am somewere in the middle of your to arguments (between you and Jove i mean)

On you maybe, not to me (and don't file me under that bollocks tough guy archetype in the OP please)

If a bully wants to belittle me, thats great, they can keep going for as long as they want because they may as well be talking to my ballsack. That, is how much I care. I don't listen to them, in fact, my ballsack probably cares more than I do about what they want to say.

Not everyone is "as hard as you" so this cant apply to everyone! If your a strong person (which I am) You can do this, but i am not as strong as you! Because I cant even do that! because I think like "Mental" does coz I can see what it means by it takes toll on you! I got bloody fed up of it and had to put an end to it all- so i moved school! (NOTE: for other reasons as well as this one, that were to do with my imediate family as a whole)

[Mental]

On you maybe, not to me (and don't file me under that bollocks tough guy archetype in the OP please)

If a bully wants to belittle me, thats great, they can keep going for as long as they want because they may as well be talking to my ballsack. That, is how much I care. I don't listen to them, in fact, my ballsack probably cares more than I do about what they want to say.
OK.. can I just ask if you've ever actually experienced any severe kind of bullying besides just from the idiots who get kicks out of your reaction? If not, I can assure you that is much easier said than done. I'm not talking about it happening for a few days or even a month at the most. But months on end, and maybe even years. Being constantly belittled, mocked, insulted, isolated, etc. I'd find it difficult if you or anybody else told me they didn't "care" after all that because while you may put on a front that you don't care, you'd have to have some kind of unhuman emotional strength to not be effected. It's a nature thing. It's not natural or desirable to be rejected by your peers.

There is nothing in bullying that builds anyone's character. Whether the bullies themselves or the victims. I mean, yeah, if you have annoying habits like being a snitch or backstabber, a few hard words from people who have had enough may help to straighten that out or help you realise that. But that isn't really bullying. Bullies are just systematic predators that prey on people they perceive to be weak or different, or even prey on people out of some twisted sense of jealousy, and believe me, no good comes from that. I'm not convinced by any of the arguments put forward so far.

[Jean Poutine]

Whereas systematically abusing them verbally teaches them everything about character....

/sarcasm


Yes, it does. Perhaps you just didn't bother learning the lessons.

Additionally, I don't appreciate snide people. HAHA LOL /SARCASM! No fucking wonder.

Thanks, I'm smart enough to know sarcasm when I see it.

OK.. can I just ask if you've ever actually experienced any severe kind of bullying besides just from the idiots who get kicks out of your reaction?

I have been bullied during the whole 5 years of high school. There is nothing that I have not heard at least twice. I've been called every epithet ever invented by man. I've been spat on, threatened, fucked with. I've spent the whole of high school without a single friend to rely on.

Too bad you did actually pull the "omg u dont no wat it is 2 b bullied" argument. I do know, much better than almost anybody else. You try being autistic, in a normal high school, with normal people, and with no special support. If I was driven to suicidal thoughts before, it was never in link with the bullying, but rather my own lack of understanding of the society I had been doomed to live in. Bullying actually helped me save myself. It built my psychological resilience. It made me impervious to being different.

And I never bullied others.

Now guess who's attending college and guess who is delivering my pizza?

How are you going to be trusted to withstand the toughest things life has to throw at you if you can't even weather psychological harassment? I survived 5 years of constant shitstorming by imbeciles, plus perhaps 4 additional years in primary school. I don't have a single scar, mental or physical. We're building a nation of sissies that can't even cope with anything. God damnit, know what you're worth, people.

[Sapphire]

I have been bullied during the whole 5 years of high school. There is nothing that I have not heard at least twice. I've been called every epithet ever invented by man. I've spent the whole of high school without a single friend to rely on.

Too bad you did actually pull the "omg u dont no wat it is 2 b bullied" argument. I do know, much better than almost anybody else. If I was driven to suicidal thoughts before, it was never in link with the bullying, but rather my own lack of understanding of the society I had been doomed to live in. Bullying actually helped me save myself. It built my psychological resilience and I eventually stopped caring about society. I decided that I would continue to live, and make my place, my way.

Now guess who's attending college and guess who is delivering my pizza.

How are you going to be trusted to withstand the toughest things life has to throw at you if you can't even weather psychological harassment? We're building a nation of sissies that can't even cope with anything. It's all Darwin's Law. And it's all an eventuality.
It's too bad that you've the "I've been bullied for 5 years and this is how it is" card since I was bullied in school for 8 (nearly 9) years and I have also been in a couple of abusive relationships. I am healing and have been for a number of years now.
Psychological abuse is a destructive process just like any other type of abuse. The resilience and determination that you describe are not characteristic of abuse. They are characteristic of the healing process that follows it.

[Jean Poutine]

And it's too bad that you've the "I've been bullied for 5 years and this is how it is" card. I was bullied in school for 8 (nearly 9) years - I have also been in a couple of abusive relationships - and I strongly disagree with you. Psychological abuse is a destructive process just like any other type of abuse. The resilience and determination that you describe are not characteristic of abuse. They are characteristic of the healing process that follows it.

You still arguing that bullying does not have positives or you're going to try and backpedal saying that resilience is not a positive trait? Thanks for walking into the trap card.

God, you guys...

[Sapphire]

You still arguing that bullying does not have positives or you're going to try and backpedal saying that resilience is not a positive trait? Thanks for walking into the trap card.

God, you guys...Oh dear, go back to school since you have obviously not learned to read properly.

Below is the bit that you have failed to take notice of...:rolleyes:

The resilience and determination that you describe are not characteristic of abuse. They are characteristic of the healing process that follows it.
Thus indicating that resilience is positive but isn't a direct result of bullying.

[Jean Poutine]

Oh dear, go back to school since you have obviously not learned to read properly.

Below is the bit that you have failed to take notice of...:rolleyes:


Thus indicating that resilience is positive but isn't a direct result of bullying.

We're onto personal attacks now? Go be snide elsewhere.

That's like saying scarring tissue over an open wound isn't there because there's an open wound at the location of the scar.

[Sapphire]

Go be snide elsewhere.

That's like saying scarring tissue over an open wound isn't because there's an open wound at the location of the scar.

Thanks for playing.
No, it isn't since you cannot get a scar without having a wound to begin with. However, people can be resilient without being bullied.

[Jean Poutine]

No, it isn't since you cannot get a scar without having a wound to begin with. However, people can be resilient without being bullied.

You like sophism, don't you?

So because some people are born with a higher propensity to gain muscle mass than others, steroids cannot be responsible for higher muscle growth. I'm sure science will be thrilled to hear the news. I suppose obscure witchcraft is responsible instead. We'll have to tell bodybuilders that they've been on the wrong track all along.

Steroids also cannot promote muscle growth because they may damage other bodily functions, to keep in line with the analogy.

Take a bully pill. -1 hit to CHA for a few years, but +5 to will checks after the episode.

Seriously, you're grasping at straws here. You're obviously personally biased.

[Mental]

I have been bullied during the whole 5 years of high school. There is nothing that I have not heard at least twice. I've been called every epithet ever invented by man. I've been spat on, threatened, fucked with. I've spent the whole of high school without a single friend to rely on.
-
How are you going to be trusted to withstand the toughest things life has to throw at you if you can't even weather psychological harassment? I survived 5 years of constant shitstorming by imbeciles, plus perhaps 4 additional years in primary school. I don't have a single scar, mental or physical. We're building a nation of sissies that can't even cope with anything. God damnit, know what you're worth, people.
No offence.. I'm struggling to believe this. You say you went through this tough intensive bullying, but you weren't effected about it in any way?

Oh and since when was:

* Being spat on
* Constantly threatened and fucked with
* Having no friends

.. an average part of life?
Do we really need to go through that shit and abuse in order to be considered "strong" enough for life? Really?

You're making out as if life is all black and dark, when in reality it totally isn't. It's far from perfect, but it's not that bad.

Too bad you did actually pull the "omg u dont no wat it is 2 b bullied" argument. I do know, much better than almost anybody else. You try being autistic, in a normal high school, with normal people, and with no special support. If I was driven to suicidal thoughts before, it was never in link with the bullying, but rather my own lack of understanding of the society I had been doomed to live in. Bullying actually helped me save myself. It built my psychological resilience. It made me impervious to being different.
You probably handle things differently to others, but not better in that case. And it wasn't because of bullying you built psychological resilience, as bullying is primarily a destructive behaviour. I'm still failing to see how being isolated, beaten the shit out of, constantly insulted has any direct or indirect character building benefits.

Do some people emerge from bullying as strong? Yes. But it's not because of the bullying. It's moreso because of the healing process and actually getting help to stop the bullying.

Btw, loving the assumption that you "know better than almost everyone".

[Sapphire]

Lol @ the sophism comment.

Since you are keen on evidence, why don't you give us some that shows bullying directly causes people to become more resilient?

Bullying can be considered to be a form of child abuse: peer abuse.4 (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/310/6975/274#R4) Like other forms of abuse, it is an abuse of power and is surrounded by fear, secrecy, and a misplaced loyalty to the perpetrator(s). Victims suffer adverse effects in the short and long term. Victims of regular bullying lack confidence, have lower self esteem, regard themselves as less competent,5 (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/310/6975/274#R5) and have fewer close friends than children who are not bullied.2 (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/310/6975/274#R2) 5 (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/310/6975/274#R5) Distress and preoccupation with their predicament may affect their concentration on their schoolwork. Bullying may be a contributory factor in why some children harm themselves or commit suicide, although this has not been systematically studied. When bullied children grow up they may be vulnerable to anxiety, depression, and loneliness (A H N Gillessen, annual convention of American Psychological Association, 1992)2 (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/310/6975/274#R2) and may have difficulties with heterosexual relationships.6 (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/310/6975/274#R6) Because bullying is usually unseen teachers,parents, and other adults often underestimate its prevalence and effects.

[...]

As bullying is so common all doctors dealing with children are likely to see some who are regularly victimised at school by their peers. This bullying may be an important factor in the development and maintenance of symptoms and should be considered in their management. If bullying is regarded as a form of abuse then professionals have a duty to detect it, take it seriously, and ensure that it is dealt with to reduce the child's suffering and minimise the potential long term effects. Olweus argues that it is a child's fundamental democratic right to attendschool without being bullied.2 (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/310/6975/274#R2) As with other forms of abuse, children are unlikely to disclose it spontaneously as they feel ashamed and embarrassed and fear recriminations. Eventually they may believe that they deserve the bullying that they are subjected to.

[...]

Doctors and allied professionals need to know about bullying and what can be done. Research in Scandinavia2 (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/310/6975/274#R2) and Britain10 (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/310/6975/274#R10) has shown that intervention programmes in schools can successfully reduce bullying by up to half; they can also reduce truancy and antisocial behaviours in general and can increase pupils' satisfaction with school life. Two new books about bullying at school have been published recently.9 (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/310/6975/274#R9) 10 (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/310/6975/274#R10) They summarise the Sheffield bullying project and provide the basis for the Department of Education's package for schools, Bullying: Don't suffer in Silence--An Anti-Bullying Pack for Schools.11 (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/310/6975/274#R11) Organisations such as Kidscape run training courses and have information packs and advice leaflets for parents and teachers.12 (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/310/6975/274#R12) To ignore bullying is to condemn children to further misery and may prejudice their academic achievements and adjustment in adult life.

-- Source article (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/310/6975/274)How does any of that (particularly the bold parts) demonstrate resilience being a direct result of being bullied?
If they were learning resilience through being bullied then the long term negative effects wouldn't be there, would they?

[Jean Poutine]

No offence.. I'm struggling to believe this. You say you went through this tough intensive bullying, but you weren't effected about it in any way?

Struggle to believe all you like. I know it may seem like a surprise but not everyone is weak and helpless.

Oh and since when was:

* Being spat on
* Constantly threatened and fucked with
* Having no friends

.. an average part of life?
Do we really need to go through that shit and abuse in order to be considered "strong" enough for life? Really?

Putting words into my mouth. Again. As if I didn't have enough of that.

Yep. I was spat on, fucked with, and had no friends. When did I say that surviving what I had to survive in the exact same terms was a prereq for living?

I said that if you can't handle hate, how are you going to survive higher ordeals in life? Being disliked by people isn't the be-all, end-all of life.

You're making out as if life is all black and dark, when in reality it totally isn't. It's far from perfect, but it's not that bad.

What? When did I ever say that I hated life? Christ.

You probably handle things differently to others, but not better in that case. And it wasn't because of bullying you built psychological resilience, as bullying is primarily a destructive behaviour. I'm still failing to see how being isolated, beaten the shit out of, constantly insulted has any direct or indirect character building benefits.

Do some people emerge from bullying as strong? Yes. But it's not because of the bullying. It's moreso because of the healing process and actually getting help to stop the bullying.

And we go to part 2 of the same exact fucking thing.

You survive the ordeal, you become stronger. Period. Obviously at first your little puny feelings may get slightly hurt. The incomfort will stop when you realise that being called names by other tiny little people that do not matter is inevitable.

You scar, but the scarring tissue is made of emotional impervious plating. The scars are caused by bullying, thus the plating also is. Unless wounds do not cause scars. :yawn:

You're so hell-bent on completely demonising bullying that you actually blame whatever positive effects it may have onto something else, anything else you may find that seems slightly plausible.

Lol @ the sophism comment.

You must be used to being called so, seeing how you debate.

Since you are keen on evidence, why don't you give us some that shows bullying directly causes people to become more resilient?

One word.

Army.

How does any of that (particularly the bold parts) demonstrate resilience being a direct result of being bullied?

It doesn't because that's not what the article is about.

"hey guys, how does this Marquis de Sade book demonstrate the Big Bang theory?"

If they were learning resilience through being bullied then the long term negative effects wouldn't be there, would they?

I suppose that the article is about people like you who never bothered to learn something out of the unpleasantness.

To ignore bullying is to condemn children to further misery and may prejudice their academic achievements and adjustment in adult life.

Newsflash : I was a straight A student while bullied and kept my grades. If I were as conceited as you are then I'd say that based on that, the whole article is false because of the notion of reasonable doubt.

Thankfully, I know that the word "may" carries a notion of uncertainness. Thus I can say that the whole thing is just conjectures instead.

Nothing ever applies the same to different people. Some people sink because of bullying. Boohoo, too bad for them, Darwin at work. I soared.

[Sapphire]

One word.

Army.Care to elaborate on that.

Really, you cannot lecture me on my debating skills when you just say one word and don't expand on your point.

It doesn't because that's not what the article is about.The article covers effects of bullying and so resiliency would be touched upon if it were a direct effect of bullying.

And your comparison is hardly valid btw.

I suppose that the article is about people like you who never bothered to learn something out of the unpleasantness.If you want to debate then do so. I gave you some literature which supports my viewpoint and all you've done is make invalid comparisons, inaccurate statements and personal attacks.

Newsflash : I was a straight A student while bullied and kept my grades. If I were as conceited as you are then I'd say that based on that, the whole article is false because of the notion of reasonable doubt.

Thankfully, I know that the word "may" carries a notion of uncertainness. Thus I can say that the whole thing is just conjectures instead.I was also a high achiever at school and maintained my grades despite being bullied. So I fail to see your point there.

The article isn't false or full of conjecture and uncertainty since it has accounted for individual differences and (unlike you) backed its points up with empirical evidence.

Nothing ever applies the same to different people. Some people sink because of bullying. Boohoo, too bad for them, Darwin at work. I soared.I never said that everything is the same for everyone. Some people sink and some people tread water long enough to overcome their difficulties. But that does not mean that the bullies did something positive in abusing them.

[Mental]

Struggle to believe all you like. I know it may seem like a surprise but not everyone is weak and helpless.
Lol, so not to break from years of intense abuse, such as the bullying you've just described to me is what you'd call "weak and helpless"? Wow. That must make most of people in this world "weak and helpless" then.

Putting words into my mouth. Again. As if I didn't have enough of that.

Yep. I was spat on, fucked with, and had no friends. When did I say that surviving what I had to survive in the exact same terms was a prereq for living?

I said that if you can't handle hate, how are you going to survive higher ordeals in life? Being disliked by people isn't the be-all, end-all of life.
It's a well known fact that not everybody in life will like you, and some will even hate you, and they will be more than happy to tell you that and treat you like that, but that's not bullying. I don't know why you're downplaying what bullying really is, especially after you described your experience.

What? When did I ever say that I hated life? Christ.
I didn't even imply that. But from your last few posts, you're making it seem as if bullying is some kind of test that you need to endure, otherwise you'll fail at life, and that life will bag you in loads of other shit.

What are these "higher ordeals" you're talking of, and why exactly do you need to survive being abused by your peers?

You survive the ordeal, you become stronger. Period. Obviously at first your little puny feelings may get slightly hurt. The incomfort will stop when you realise that being called names by other tiny little people that do not matter is inevitable.

You scar, but the scarring tissue is made of emotional impervious plating. The scars are caused by bullying, thus the plating also is. Unless wounds do not cause scars. :yawn:

You're so hell-bent on completely demonising bullying that you actually blame whatever positive effects it may have onto something else, anything else you may find that seems slightly plausible.
Those positive effects do not come from the bullying itself, as it's a primarily destructive and demeaning behaviour. It's just like saying you heal from your wounds by getting stabbed. You don't exactly learn from your mistakes. You learn from the consequences of them mistakes.

The people who become "strong" from bullying are the ones that tackled it and stopped it. Not the actual abuse itself.

Nothing ever applies the same to different people. Some people sink because of bullying. Boohoo, too bad for them, Darwin at work. I soared.
Ahaaaa. Social Darwinist I see we have here? Sorry, this isn't the jungle where the so-called "survival of the fittest" is the main rule. You're free to join modern civilisation any time you feel, and realise that life isn't as black and white as that.

I take it you have no sympathy for those who are victims of other such abuse, such as child abuse, or those locked in poverty, either? Great to see you have such a high opinion of your fellow members of your species, who you should be helping to survive, as "survival of the fittest" in nature usually applies to one species trying to dominate and/or out survive others.

[Jean Poutine]

Care to elaborate on that.

Really, you cannot lecture me on my debating skills when you just say one word and don't expand on your point.

I really gotta hold your hand all the way to the obvious conclusion? Fine, then.

Institutionalised bullying is used in the army to develop esprit de corps and promote emotional resilience, as well as weed out the weak and learn hierarchy. You never wondered why officers keep yelling at the recruits in the movies? Well this isn't fantasy.

Even while I was applying I already began to be put down.

Before you go around seeking more articles from sissies that decry army bullying, do learn that army bullying is used in reference to an illegal amount of pressure put on recruits, and that something akin to verbal bullying at school and hazing is perfectly normal.

The article covers effects of bullying and so resiliency would be touched upon if it were a direct effect of bullying.

It covers the NEGATIVE effects of bullying.

And your comparison is hardly valid btw.

Says the person who keeps changing the rules as soon as I find one that works.

If you want to debate then do so. I gave you some literature which supports my viewpoint and all you've done is make invalid comparisons, inaccurate statements and personal attacks.

You're seriously accusing me of personal attacks after you started them?

I'm glad to see you're all about intellectual honesty.

Don't quote shit. Tell me what you know.

I was also a high achiever at school and maintained my grades despite being bullied. So I fail to see your point there.

The point is that it makes that claim invalid, thus one could doubt the veracity of the article.

That is, if I also kept changing the rules as soon as I am inconvenienced.

I never said that everything is the same for everyone. Some people sink and some people tread water long enough to overcome their difficulties. But that does not mean that the bullies did something positive in abusing them.

You gonna plug your ears and sing loudly how much longer? I gave you one example of a person that has not only "treaded water" but built off his character bases on bullying : me.

Therefore your claim that bullying has nothing positive to offer is false. Good can come out of unpleasant experiences. It's up to you to grab it.

You should read some Baudelaire.

Lol, so not to break from years of intense abuse, such as the bullying you've just described to me is what you'd call "weak and helpless"? Wow. That must make most of people in this world "weak and helpless" then.

Yes, yes they are. If this forum doesn't embody what I mean then I don't know what does.

It's a well known fact that not everybody in life will like you, and some will even hate you, and they will be more than happy to tell you that and treat you like that, but that's not bullying. I don't know why you're downplaying what bullying really is, especially after you described your experience.

Because bullying is all it is. It's hate, it's jealousy, it's people attempting to introduce a pecking order where it has no place.

Let them hate, let them be jealous. If you care about a few idiots rattling shit then you've got issues.

I didn't even imply that. But from your last few posts, you're making it seem as if bullying is some kind of test that you need to endure, otherwise you'll fail at life, and that life will bag you in loads of other shit.

I suppose that saying that I think life is all black and bad has nothing to do with implying that I hate it. For real?

What are these "higher ordeals" you're talking of, and why exactly do you need to survive being abused by your peers?

You can't think of anything worse than being made fun of in school? Gosh.

Those positive effects do not come from the bullying itself, as it's a primarily destructive and demeaning behaviour. It's just like saying you heal from your wounds by getting stabbed. You don't exactly learn from your mistakes. You learn from the consequences of them mistakes.

And I'm certain the healing process could have occured without the stab. It's a simple logical link. Stabbing brings wounds, wounds bring healing, thus stabbing brings healing.

It's like these questions in online tests. All cats are stacs, and all stacs are blue, thus all cats are blue.

Drop it.

The people who become "strong" from bullying are the ones that tackled it and stopped it. Not the actual abuse itself.

I've let them go on as long as they wanted. They stopped when they finally became more mature.

And guess what, I actually gained their respect afterwards and they wanted to be pals. Since I don't befriend scum, I did not oblige them.

Ahaaaa. Social Darwinist I see we have here? Sorry, this isn't the jungle where the so-called "survival of the fittest" is the main rule. You're free to join modern civilisation any time you feel, and realise that life isn't as black and white as that.

Seriously?

I take it you have no sympathy for those who are victims of other such abuse, such as child abuse, or those locked in poverty, either? Great to see you have such a high opinion of your fellow members of your species, who you should be helping to survive, as "survival of the fittest" in nature usually applies to one species trying to dominate and/or out survive others.

Good to know you're bringing the poverty argument out there. I live below the poverty line, and I don't touch welfare payments out of principle. I fend for myself, nobody will fend for me, nor should they have to.

The only people that are worth helping or saving are those that you care for. I have no need for dead weight under the guise of human brotherhood.

Survival of the fittest also applies to species that must accomodate to face hardships. Why'd you think Darwin's birds had different beak shapes? In essence, that's what you gotta do. Adapt to bullying or gtfo.

Are you going to double-team me in denial much longer? Or are you going to continually, uselessly challenge my experiences with pseudo-intellectualism?

If you're going to go save the poor and the helpless that can't stand a few rude words and some physical pain, then do so. However, don't discount the good that can come out of bullying because you haven't been able to seize it for yourself. If, according to les poètes maudits, a cadaver can be beautiful, then bullying can be positive. It depends on the way you view it. And you're both obviously bent on viewing it your way.

[Jove]

Uchimata, they won't change.



Also, If they have been bullying you for years, it's only because you view it as such.

[Mental]

Institutionalised bullying is used in the army to develop esprit de corps and promote emotional resilience, as well as weed out the weak and learn hierarchy. You never wondered why officers keep yelling at the recruits in the movies? Well this isn't fantasy.

Even while I was applying I already began to be put down.

Before you go around seeking more articles from sissies that decry army bullying, do learn that army bullying is used in reference to an illegal amount of pressure put on recruits, and that something akin to verbal bullying at school and hazing is perfectly normal.
I gotta say here, I don't actually recall Sapphire in any way criticising the military way of handling things in their institution. In fact she said earlier in this thread to that StateRights kid that the military is quite different from the rest of us regarding the issue. Js.

And pretty much everybody knows how the military treats you in training. In the military your primary job is to be an aggressive and defensive soldier who is ready to handle high amounts of stress and has to take responsibility for his fellow soldiers in a battlefield. This requires a very strong head, so being hazed and exposed to other intense situations is to help demonstrate to the soldier what highly stressful situations are like. But I'm interested to know how the military is like your general school or work office setting, and why bullying/hazing is needed in these places. School students don't have to take responsibility for people around them's lives or disciplines. Very few occupations require this, actually.

By the way, it's not the bullying/hazing part of military training that builds espirit de corps/team spirit, as a friendship of this sort requires mutual respect, which cannot be obtained by beating the shit out of, isolating or humiliating a fellow soldier. I'm sure you've seen the movie Full Metal Jacket where the recruits gang up on Private Pyle in the night by beating him up with soap bars in towels? Well, although it shouldn't have fucked him up, I still fail to see how that kind of thing would build espirit de corps... "Oh yeah, beat the shit out of me, that way I'll totally trust you more!". My perception of that attack was that it spurred from a few people being pissed off at him for screwing up badly. Not some attempt at building his team spirit..

Because bullying is all it is. It's hate, it's jealousy, it's people attempting to introduce a pecking order where it has no place.

Let them hate, let them be jealous. If you care about a few idiots rattling shit then you've got issues.
Humans are naturally social beings that yearn acceptance from their peers, so it's quite ignorant to just say people have "issues" if they're suffering after being rejected, isolated and pissed about by their peers. Generally, it's not just a few lilylivered insults that bother people, it's the constant ongoing abuse that leads to the destruction of ones self-esteem.

I suppose that saying that I think life is all black and bad has nothing to do with implying that I hate it. For real?

You can't think of anything worse than being made fun of in school? Gosh.
With the way you presented yourself in your first few posts, it seemed as if you divided the issue into a "you're either strong or weak" thing, with no consideration of the negatives of bullying, which would be stuff like depression and destruction of self-esteem. You'd deem all that as just "weak", wouldn't you?

And "being made fun of" isn't as light as you're saying. Of course there's some sucky things in life such as becoming poor or losing your house, but nobody goes through life expecting to be constantly verbally/mentally/physically abused by their peers, as this is mostly illegal.

People shouldn't have to put up with it.



And I'm certain the healing process could have occured without the stab. It's a simple logical link. Stabbing brings wounds, wounds bring healing, thus stabbing brings healing.
Wow..

I've let them go on as long as they wanted. They stopped when they finally became more mature.

And guess what, I actually gained their respect afterwards and they wanted to be pals. Since I don't befriend scum, I did not oblige them.
Good for you, man.



Are you going to double-team me in denial much longer? Or are you going to continually, uselessly challenge my experiences with pseudo-intellectualism?
Just because myself and Sapphire have a similar view on the subject doesn't mean we're "double teaming" you. Until this post, we haven't referenced eachother at all.

And your "experiences"? You're saying that as if we don't have our own experiences. I've been on both ends of the issue, as the bully and the bullied. I've bullied a few people in my life time, notably three people, and I was bullied myself for about two years for stupid reasons. No I didn't "break" and I'm not quite sure if I fit into your "sissy weakling" catagory, as I don't exactly feel stronger having experienced that. I ignored them and fought back, mainly. But the fact is different people handle different situations differently. Nobody is "weak" because they develope depression or anxiety after years of abuse.




Uchimata, they won't change.

Also, If they have been bullying you for years, it's only because you view it as such.
Jove - I am actually appreciative of Ulchimata's and other peoples challenging inputs to my topic. However, just because I do, doesn't mean they're going to "change" mine or other peoples minds, just as we're not exactly going to change your minds.

I don't think anyone is arrogant enough to walk into a debate and think that their ideas will change other peoples minds. Perhaps open them or give them food for thought, but not change them.

Oh, and btw.. explain your last "point", please. I don't get it.

[Jove]

Humans are naturally social beings that yearn acceptance from their peers, so it's quite ignorant to just say people have "issues" if they're suffering after being rejected, isolated and pissed about by their peers.



Generally the people that wish to belittle you aren't your peers and with that in mind I really don't see why you should care about them.




With the way you presented yourself in your first few posts, it seemed as if you divided the issue into a "you're either strong or weak" thing, with no consideration of the negatives of bullying.



These "Negatives" don't have any substance when you realise that nothing that these "bullies" say mean anything!




Just because myself and Sapphire have a similar view on the subject doesn't mean we're "double teaming" you.



Well, yes. You are. You're both issuing the same veritable font of denial to him.





Jove - I am actually appreciative of Ulchimata's and other peoples challenging inputs to my topic. However, just because I do, doesn't mean they're going to "change" mine or other peoples minds, just as we're not exactly going to change your minds.

I don't think anyone is arrogant enough to walk into a debate and think that their ideas will change other peoples minds. Perhaps open them or give them food for thought, but not change them.



What then, is the point of this argument. Or rather why do you continue to blindly defend your side.



Oh, and btw.. explain your last "point", please. I don't get it.



The bully gets its satisfaction from you giving it a reaction, hence if one has been bullying you for years it has only continued because you have continued to give it a reaction.

[Mental]

Generally the people that wish to belittle you aren't your peers and with that in mind I really don't see why you should care about them.
It's not as easy as that. You don't exactly choose what you care about, and in many cases, people do find themselves effected by what bullies say and do.

These "Negatives" don't have any substance when you realise that nothing that these "bullies" say mean anything!
Bullies aren't always just a bunch of kids who throw insults like "prick" or "bastard" or "whore" around, you know. Some things bullies say are very spiteful when it comes to the tongue. If you had a dead or estranged parent for example, I wouldn't exactly consider a snide nasty comment about that as "meaningless". Even if you don't react by crying or fighting or getting angry, bullies know that these words hurt deep inside, and that's why they do it. People really can't control their emotions. Of course somewhere along the line I'm gonna be told that it's "weak" somehow or how people should just "suck it up".

Well, yes. You are. You're both issuing the same veritable font of denial to him.
Right.

What then, is the point of this argument. Or rather why do you continue to blindly defend your side.
The same point as any debate. Do you debate because you think you can suddenly change peoples minds? Views on bullying is mostly opinions, so there isn't really a clear cut right or wrong answer.

And I don't "blindly" defend my side. Well if I do, no more than anyone else "blindly" defends theirs. I do actually think uchimata has presented a good argument, I just don't agree.



The bully gets its satisfaction from you giving it a reaction, hence if one has been bullying you for years it has only continued because you have continued to give it a reaction.
I was bullied for two years and ignored it 99% of the time, and it did not make a difference at all. The "ignore them" only works with some bullies, but not others.

[Jove]

It's not as easy as that. You don't exactly choose what you care about.




You don't choose what you care about? Who seemingly determines what I care about? Oh wait that's me.

[Sycron]

i actually agree with what uchimata and Jove are saying. bullying is an experience that can toughen you up and become more independent and stronger. Im not in the mood ATM to give a load of paragraphs on the matter but all Im going to say is that many bullying victims should stop sissying about it by whinging and should learn to stick up for themselves.

When you start working and you get bullied you cant just tell your teacher or your mommy, a great degree of solving the problem lies on your own shoulders. There is also a reason your being bullied 99 percent of the time so you should perhaps work on sorting that out. if you're a grass or you have stupid habits, do you honestly wonder why?

[Sapphire]

The armed forces don't bully the recruits and then just leave them to get on with it like playground bullies. They break them down mentally so they can build them up again in a way that suits the job. You can't take troops into a warzone only to have them deciding not to follow orders, for example, as it puts them and the others at risk.
A far cry from playground bullying, don't you think?

And before you try to make out that I don't know anything about the armed forces, I do since I had a boyfriend and a friend who served.

If you aren't happy with my article, look for your own to argue against it with. You criticised me for not having evidence to back my statements up with so I gave one.
Btw, the fact that it doesn't directly mention resilience is neither here nor there since it mentions a number of effects that clearly demonstrate a lack of resilience.

You, on the other hand, have yet to provide support from any valid, reliable source for your view.

And, honestly, giving yourself as an example in an attempt to invalidate a peer reviewed article that draws conclusions on empirical evidence from other peer reviewed journals is really stretching. Unless you offer something more concrete and valid than you have done to counter it, you are just wasting our time.

When you start working and you get bullied you cant just tell your teacher or your mommy, a great degree of solving the problem lies on your own shoulders. There is also a reason your being bullied 99 percent of the time so you should perhaps work on sorting that out. if you're a grass or you have stupid habits, do you honestly wonder why?When in the workplace, you can always go to your supervisor and address the bullying that way. So what is your point?

And care to elaborate on how those that haven't got bad habits brought their bullying upon themselves?

[Jove]

When in the workplace, you can always go to your supervisor and address the bullying that way. So what is your point?


It's nice to have someone sort out your problems for you isn't it. People do notice it when you're so fragile in the workplace.

[Hyper]

Ohh GOED I skimmed the last 2 pages.. I really can't remember why you are even arguing, I can just see your on different opinions.

Personally I lean towards uchimata on this.. Bullying isn't a ''good'' thing its simply a ''trial'' and if you can come through it you'll be stronger.

I wished for years and years.. Over half a decade that nobody would hit me that day or gang up on me.. Or steal my stuff, I sincerely wished that they'd JUST call me names as I didn't care what they though, I didn't think of them as people at one point and at a very depressed point I dreamed of being unnoticed - the guy nobody ever talks to, the guy everybody ignores, because for a period of at least 2 years I sincerely hated humanity and I was in a ''very bad place'' mentally.

Of course at first words, insults set me off but going through it all year after year.. Words lost meaning and became numb, people&friends became an alien concept, love from humans felt like a sick irony.. And the only thing that confirmed my painful existence day after day for almost 5 years was physical abuse ranging from being spat on, randomly punched, tripped, pulled to the ground in halls etc... to being ganged and so forth on a daily basis.

I assure you I've experienced the worst of the worst you could get from kids your own age and still be a functioning person.. And after all of that, and during at least half of that, words became the most futile of things in my life.

In the end of it all I am obviously affected, but at least I sincerely do not give a flying shit what anybody thinks about me, gossips about me or tells to my face. Its a good lesson learned the hard way really and I can assure you, you wont have the right to call yourself a grown man or woman in my eyes if you don't understand the meaning of words can only hurt you if you let them hurt you.

There are truly few times in life that words can hurt you and those words can only come from very close people. People who throw obscenities at you hoping for reactions or putting you down are not noteworthy.

If you get through bullying you'll end up being stronger, if you simply stand in a corner waiting until it eventually stops you wont learn anything and you'll be a sad existence of a human being.

[Sapphire]

If you get through bullying you'll end up being stronger, if you simply stand in a corner waiting until it eventually stops you wont learn anything and you'll be a sad existence of a human being.
Don't you see that you only feel stronger because of the healing process and not as a direct effect of the bullying?

[Hyper]

Don't you see that you only feel stronger because of the healing process and not as a direct effect of the bullying?

Where did I say that bullying by itself made me stronger?

I said I am still affected but that I learned from it, just as you learn by going through any sort of difficult situation in life, how to cope better, to understand it and so on.

[Mental]

You don't choose what you care about? Who seemingly determines what I care about? Oh wait that's me.
Your emotions (which you don't just control) choose what you care about, actually. Lets think of someone you care about.. a boyfriend/girlfriend? Your family? Your pets? Your friends? Anyone or anything else?

Come back to me when you've switched that feeling off and completely stopped caring about them.

[Hyper]

Your emotions (which you don't just control) choose what you care about, actually. Lets think of someone you care about.. a boyfriend/girlfriend? Your family? Your pets? Your friends? Anyone or anything else?

Come back to me when you've switched that feeling off and completely stopped caring about them.

Your saying humans have no control over their emotions?

[Jove]

Your emotions (which you don't just control) choose what you care about, actually. Lets think of someone you care about.. a boyfriend/girlfriend? Your family? Your pets? Your friends? Anyone or anything else?



Face -> palm. Think about what you say please.

Are you telling me that I feel a mindless need to care for something? really? How exactly did you come by this notion?

I Care about those things you just mentioned because they actually mean something to me.

This is not a hard concept

Thoughtless insults from people that I don't really care for mean nothing to me, Why should they?

Do you see where I'm going with this yet?

[Mental]

Face -> palm. Think about what you say please.

Are you telling me that I feel a mindless need to care for something? really? How exactly did you come by this notion?

I Care about those things you just mentioned because they actually mean something to me.

This is not a hard concept

Thoughtless insults from people that I don't really care for mean nothing to me, Why should they?

Do you see where I'm going with this yet?
Yeah and you seem to have missed my point too. People generally can't control what they care for and not care for, enough said. It's very rare to find someone who hasn't felt anything for CONSTANT below-the-belt remarks or insults. Not just silly little insults like "you suck", or "you're a prick".

It doesn't matter who it's from. An insult is an insult. Yeah, it may hurt you more if someone you care about says itbut if everybody is constantly knocking you down, and you do ignore it, it's really hard not to care.

Speaking of which, you didn't actually answer my question earlier, which uchimata did, but you didn't. Have you experienced any severe bullying, as been mentioned? If you have, then fair enough. But if you haven't, I'd find your cliche advice of "just ignore them they don't matter" a little hard to follow.

[Jove]

I'd find your cliche advice of "just ignore them they don't matter" a little hard to follow.

I guess you could say that people have tried, It just hasn't phased me. You still haven't told me why it should other than with Illogical statements.

How is it hard to follow, You need to recognize that these people can't fault you on anything and so use petty insults. If you cannot realise that what these people say doesn't matter then you need to.



I am done with this now, Both I and Uchimata have presented our arguments and you have continued to present your own with less and less coherence.