Obama

[kyle56]

Tell me what you really think about obama and why?

[Rutherford The Brave]

I think he's alright, I don't like him because I think he's just trying to be the next FDR. But I do not hate him, because he is smart and he is better than Bush.

[Sage]

I think Obama's main problem is that he's trying to please too many people, and in doing so not pleasing many at all.

[Richthegamer99]

Obama is i think one of the worst perident he said that he does so much but he don't do nothing you know that clash for cunkers why ditroy the cars when you sell the parts of them or give the cars to people who need cars i think the only reson that he became perisdent is the color of his skin

[Sage]

he said that he does so much but he don't do nothing

Welcome to politics.

[kyle56]

hey rich u have a point obama was mainly elected because of his race. also he made to many promises that will never happen. he hasnt with drew any troops but only sent more

[Rutherford The Brave]

Obama is i think one of the worst perident he said that he does so much but he don't do nothing you know that clash for cunkers why ditroy the cars when you sell the parts of them or give the cars to people who need cars i think the only reson that he became perisdent is the color of his skin

hey rich u have a point obama was mainly elected because of his race. also he made to many promises that will never happen. he hasnt with drew any troops but only sent more

Choosing someone by race to be president is stupid. People obviously choose him because he had more to offer than the ancient Mccain and its a change from Republican. Also alot of people where voting for Hilary and since well, they are democrats and Mccain is republican you'd see who those people would vote for. Also People want out of this war, and Mccain did not want out. So there you go.

[kyle56]

yea but there is still a huge precent of ppl tht voted for him b/c of his skin color. and many ppl tht voted for him dont support him anymore

[TheKingDavis]

Simple. I dislike him very VERY strongly. He doesnt have enough experience to be leading our nation.

And yes, one of the main reasons he was elected was because of his skin color

[Sage]

Simple. I dislike him very VERY strongly. He doesnt have enough experience to be leading our nation.

And someone like Sarah Palin does, clearly.

[TheKingDavis]

And someone like Sarah Palin does, clearly.

I wasnt for Palin, she can take her moose and shove it

[kyle56]

finally someone on here that agrees with him being elected cuz of skin color. and yes he has very little political experience

[Rutherford The Brave]

finally someone on here that agrees with him being elected cuz of skin color. and yes he has very little political experience

So did everyone else who ran. Excluding Hilary, I love her.

[kyle56]

obama prolly had the least amount tho

[Rutherford The Brave]

obama prolly had the least amount tho

Ahem, Palin, Ahem. Can See Russia from her backyard. AHEM.

[kyle56]

alright and your point is..i can see russia on a map

[Sage]

alright and your point is..i can see russia on a map

She cited Alaska's proximity to Russia as foreign policy experience.

[Rutherford The Brave]

alright and your point is..i can see russia on a map

Palin doesn't know shit about Politics.

[kyle56]

oh alright well i dont care anymore i hate obama and always will he sucks

[Rutherford The Brave]

oh alright well i dont care anymore i hate obama and always will he sucks

I agree with you, he isn't the greatest.

[kyle56]

yea he had made way to many promises during his campaign and hasnt done one yet

[Rutherford The Brave]

yea he had made way to many promises during his campaign and hasnt done one yet

All presidents will make promises, but I think Obama made more than he could keep. He wasn't a business man, and he couldn't pull off the 100 day plan like FDR. Plus he didn't have anything that he could fix and in turn make people happy.

[kyle56]

yea he just needs to stick with a larger problem and work with that like the war. the health care thing is bs and the people tht want it r the lazy one that could go out and look for a job and buy their own.

[Rutherford The Brave]

yea he just needs to stick with a larger problem and work with that like the war. the health care thing is bs and the people tht want it r the lazy one that could go out and look for a job and buy their own.

I respectfully disagree, because even with a job. Most people cannot afford healthcare. I would know I work 2 and I can hardly pay for it myself. The health care thing, is important. The way he fought for it I didn't agree with. Thats why I wanted Hilary, she wants universal healthcare. I want that so badly.

[kyle56]

and i respect you because you work hard and want to pay for your own needs..im talking about the people that will sit at there house and get all their things from the govt and are cappable of getting a job

[Rutherford The Brave]

and i respect you because you work hard and want to pay for your own needs..im talking about the people that will sit at there house and get all their things from the govt and are cappable of getting a job

Yeah, that is rather annoying.

[kyle56]

yea it is

[Antares]

Dude, you can't even spell 'president' yet you are calling him the worst. I now deem your semblance of an opinion able to be disregarded and ignored.

Obama...he is a great person. Seems passionate and very caring, orderly and tries very hard. Just an all around nice guy.
I am glad that we have him to represent us to the rest of the world unlike that idiot before him.

I think that Obama is not being forceful enough. He constantly pushes this bi-partisan approach but honestly, you will never please anyone. So I think he needs to be more aggressive and get his poop in a shoot before he loses his majority or term.

In my opinion he has done nothing to warrant the hatred that people have from him. Maybe the only thing is not pulling out of Iraq immediately but most people agree that it has to be a timed process. The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act was mostly a CONGRESSIONAL deal and was signed in an emergency situation. If that were a republican I am pretty sure they would have signed it too. They say it has helped, so I think that is a good thing...
The only other thing he has really done was healthcare but some of the stuff he even wanted isn't in either of the bills. He is doing nothing but signing the damn thing so I don't see why people are complaining that he is the worst president ever when he hasn't done anything that can be remotely seen as "worst president worthy".

Either people are racist, haters, scared, selfish, or a combo of the sort.

Obama, just be more aggressive and get the stuff you want done and pushed through Congress.


EDIT: Oh, one more thing. I just realized that the only thing I disagree with him about is the Gitmo thing. I dont think it should have been closed but then again, I am not exactly sure where they are putting these terroristic people...they may be smuggling them to other, more secure places.

[theOperaGhost]

As a man, Obama is fine. As a politician and president...I hate him.

I don't like the fact that so many people voted for him on two things...the word change and the color of his skin.

I see so many people talking about political experience and one person said none of the candidates had any...how can you say that? McCain has many many years of experience...and it was about time we got a president with military experience back in office too.

Everyone talks about Palin. She wasn't running for president! Why does every fucking liberal think McCain is going to die tomorrow? Well, it's been more than a year and he's still alive! If he dies in the next 3 years, I'll recant these statements, but good fucking lord...obama has just as much chance of dying in office as mccain would have. Obama is black and there are still lunatics out there who think black people are associated with the devil.

[Perseus]

No one has experience as a president, except someone re-running for president. Just puttin' that out there.

I don't hate him. I may not like as president because I think he made too many promises.
I think that this term will be fine with him. I don't see why some people think he should be impeached and other things, though.

[Raptor22]

Obama has surprised me, both good and bad. Obama's economic stimulus plan and healthcare takeover have ravaged the deficit spending Billions more than Bush ever dreamed. Positives however are that Obama has done the intelligent thing in the middle east and listened to our commanders, and continued the Bush plan for troop withdrawals from Iraq.

As a man, Obama is fine. As a politician and president...I hate him.

I don't like the fact that so many people voted for him on two things...the word change and the color of his skin.

I see so many people talking about political experience and one person said none of the candidates had any...how can you say that? McCain has many many years of experience...and it was about time we got a president with military experience back in office too.

Everyone talks about Palin. She wasn't running for president! Why does every fucking liberal think McCain is going to die tomorrow? Well, it's been more than a year and he's still alive! If he dies in the next 3 years, I'll recant these statements, but good fucking lord...obama has just as much chance of dying in office as mccain would have. Obama is black and there are still lunatics out there who think black people are associated with the devil.

I agree. McCain had 20 years in the Senate, Obama had two. McCain understood the military and foreign policy, Obama was involved with neither. Obama is following in Carter's footsteps in converting all of us to a socialist utopia. It wont work.

As far as McCain dying? He has good genes, His mom is 100 and still alive, whereas Obamas mother got a rare genetic Cancer and died at 50 years old, a Cancer that Obama carries the gene for. Before he ran for president McCain got a physical and a stress test and performed better than the average 40 year old, and hes 72...

He could probably still kick my ass... :P

[The Batman]

TBH all of these Obama debates are pointless, it's like debating religion either you agree with it or not and nothing's going to change it. It took us years to get out of the depression and it'll take us years to get out of this recession people are just expecting him to fulfill his campaign promises a few months after he came into office and usually it's the conservatives who are heavily criticizing him and instead of backing him up they have something to say about everything he does. It took 4 or 5 years for people to start hating bush because of the things he did and Obama hasn't even been in a full year yet and people are jumping down his throat. Honestly since everyone is saying that he was voted for his race doesn't it seem likely that people are hating him because of his race too? Well it sure as hell seems that way to me and I'm not afraid to say it.

[Antares]

Obama has surprised me, both good and bad. Obama's economic stimulus plan and healthcare takeover have ravaged the deficit spending Billions more than Bush ever dreamed. Positives however are that Obama has done the intelligent thing in the middle east and listened to our commanders, and continued the Bush plan for troop withdrawals from Iraq.



I agree. McCain had 20 years in the Senate, Obama had two. McCain understood the military and foreign policy, Obama was involved with neither. Obama is following in Carter's footsteps in converting all of us to a socialist utopia. It wont work.

As far as McCain dying? He has good genes, His mom is 100 and still alive, whereas Obamas mother got a rare genetic Cancer and died at 50 years old, a Cancer that Obama carries the gene for. Before he ran for president McCain got a physical and a stress test and performed better than the average 40 year old, and hes 72...

He could probably still kick my ass... :P

Okay, first Jared, you hate him because he was elected????

Why do you HATE him? What has he done? Just because he ran for president and happened to get elected??

To raptor, for the deficit, I don't think CONGRESS under the Obama administration did much worst than Bush. Bush started 2 wars and supported bank bailout. They then passed it.

Obama rolls in and has to fix the economic mess and suggests the ARRA which granted was expensive but it is NOT much different than the one that Bush signed.

Finally, the healthcare, that is over a period of 10 year they are projecting and that is still not even finalized so you shouldn't even blame that on him when nothing has happened yet.

He is not converting us to a socialist utopia. Carter barely did anything signifigant so I am not sure why you bring him up...
It is a fact that Americans are too stingy to help or assist/create a better life for more than themselves. So even if he was trying to "convert" us to a "socialist utopia", it wouldnt be possible.

Obama ran the better campaign and that is why he is sitting there now. Too late to change it but even McCain/Palin said that

[theOperaGhost]

and usually it's the conservatives who are heavily criticizing him and instead of backing him up they have something to say about everything he does. It took 4 or 5 years for people to start hating bush because of the things he did.

1) It's usually the liberals who are heavily criticizing any conservative and having something to say about everything they do.

2) Remember the whole voting thing? Gore won the popular vote, but Bush was still president? Yeah...it didn't take 4 or 5 years for people to start hating Bush...it started right away. Nothing is different for Obama...every president faces a great amount of opposition. This opposition just happens to be called racism now that the president is black, I guess...

EDIT: To John...I don't hate him because he was elected. I hate his policies. I don't like him because my candidate wasn't elected. I hate the reasons he was elected...he wasn't elected because of his policies like presidents should be (even though I hate them)..he was elected because he said the word "change" and because he is black.

[Antares]

1) It's usually the liberals who are heavily criticizing any conservative and having something to say about everything they do.

2) Remember the whole voting thing? Gore won the popular vote, but Bush was still president? Yeah...it didn't take 4 or 5 years for people to start hating Bush...it started right away. Nothing is different for Obama...every president faces a great amount of opposition. This opposition just happens to be called racism now that the president is black, I guess...

EDIT: To John...I don't hate him because he was elected. I hate his policies. I don't like him because my candidate wasn't elected. I hate the reasons he was elected...he wasn't elected because of his policies like presidents should be (even though I hate them)..he was elected because he said the word "change" and because he is black.

That isn't true. Honestly, I barely hear liberals complain about conservatives. I just hear a lot of conservative making yip yap with some crazy conspiracy theories. However, I will say that I am sure there is some. Either way there is bantering and all types of critiques across the board. Can't just blame the left.

The whole voting thing was a bit different. I think people were A. Confused because they didnt pay attention in gov't class and B. Unhappy with this electoral college system that we have in place
Not necessarily because they really hated Bush although you are right, people tend to dislike the person they didn't vote for.
Glad you acknowledge the blatent racism though :)

[Raptor22]

Okay, first Jared, you hate him because he was elected????

Why do you HATE him? What has he done? Just because he ran for president and happened to get elected??

To raptor, for the deficit, I don't think CONGRESS under the Obama administration did much worst than Bush. Bush started 2 wars and supported bank bailout. They then passed it.

Obama rolls in and has to fix the economic mess and suggests the ARRA which granted was expensive but it is NOT much different than the one that Bush signed.

Finally, the healthcare, that is over a period of 10 year they are projecting and that is still not even finalized so you shouldn't even blame that on him when nothing has happened yet.

He is not converting us to a socialist utopia. Carter barely did anything signifigant so I am not sure why you bring him up...
It is a fact that Americans are too stingy to help or assist/create a better life for more than themselves. So even if he was trying to "convert" us to a "socialist utopia", it wouldnt be possible.

Obama ran the better campaign and that is why he is sitting there now. Too late to change it but even McCain/Palin said that

Bush didnt start two wars, Al Queda started one and the UN started the other. The congress under Bush was the same one as now, democrat controlled. Obama is the one pushing for the healthcare nightmare, Carter aimed to create universal healthcare more economic regulations and a negative energy policy. Obama and Carter's views are very similar. They will also both be one term presidents.

1) It's usually the liberals who are heavily criticizing any conservative and having something to say about everything they do.

2) Remember the whole voting thing? Gore won the popular vote, but Bush was still president? Yeah...it didn't take 4 or 5 years for people to start hating Bush...it started right away. Nothing is different for Obama...every president faces a great amount of opposition. This opposition just happens to be called racism now that the president is black, I guess...

EDIT: To John...I don't hate him because he was elected. I hate his policies. I don't like him because my candidate wasn't elected. I hate the reasons he was elected...he wasn't elected because of his policies like presidents should be (even though I hate them)..he was elected because he said the word "change" and because he is black.

Agreed. So many people voted for him just because "its about time we have a black president" well the novelty sure has worn off now has it.

That isn't true. Honestly, I barely hear liberals complain about conservatives. I just hear a lot of conservative making yip yap with some crazy conspiracy theories. However, I will say that I am sure there is some. Either way there is bantering and all types of critiques across the board. Can't just blame the left.

The whole voting thing was a bit different. I think people were A. Confused because they didnt pay attention in gov't class and B. Unhappy with this electoral college system that we have in place
Not necessarily because they really hated Bush although you are right, people tend to dislike the person they didn't vote for.
Glad you acknowledge the blatent racism though

Liberals do it too. Ever watch Kieth Olbermann or Rachael Maddow? Worse than Glenn Beck. I believe the future will be alot kinder to Bush once people begin to view the big picture, same thing happened with Truman.

I hate how anyone opposed to Obamas views is now suddenly a racist because there is no legitimate reason that they would opposed right? Its a stupid viewpoint.

[theOperaGhost]

That isn't true. Honestly, I barely hear liberals complain about conservatives. I just hear a lot of conservative making yip yap with some crazy conspiracy theories. However, I will say that I am sure there is some. Either way there is bantering and all types of critiques across the board. Can't just blame the left.

The whole voting thing was a bit different. I think people were A. Confused because they didnt pay attention in gov't class and B. Unhappy with this electoral college system that we have in place
Not necessarily because they really hated Bush although you are right, people tend to dislike the person they didn't vote for.
Glad you acknowledge the blatent racism though :)

Where was I only blaming the left for all the bantering? Everyone else blames just the right, so I'm just adding the fact that the left does the exact same thing. We have Glenn Beck and Bill O'Reilly...you have Michael Moore and Keith Olbermann. Can't just blame the right.

[Raptor22]

Where was I only blaming the left for all the bantering? Everyone else blames just the right, so I'm just adding the fact that the left does the exact same thing. We have Glenn Beck and Bill O'Reilly...you have Michael Moore and Keith Olbermann. Can't just blame the right.

Yup, exactly what I put. :)

[Tiberius]

As a man, Obama is fine. As a politician and president...I hate him.

I hate him as a politician, as a president and as a man. Obama represents everything that is wrong with this world. He employs evil policies that are designed by ignorance or intent to bring this country to its knees and destroy it. What he is doing will take the greatest country this planet has ever known and will reduce it to nothing. The vast wealth of the nation is being destroyed each minute with his printing of audacious amounts of money and the spending of it. He is our Helen of Troy, a Cassius and Stalin. He will bring nothing but treason, pestilence and destruction to our nation. I think he will be assassinated and deserves it. That's what I think of our President.

[Raptor22]

I hate him as a politician, as a president and as a man. Obama represents everything that is wrong with this world. He employs evil policies that are designed by ignorance or intent to bring this country to its knees and destroy it. What he is doing will take the greatest country this planet has ever known and will reduce it to nothing. The vast wealth of the nation is being destroyed each minute with his printing of audacious amounts of money and the spending of it. He is our Helen of Troy, a Cassius and Stalin. He will bring nothing but treason, pestilence and destruction to our nation. I think he will be assassinated and deserves it. That's what I think of our President.

I will agree with that. Strong words man, I like that. :)

Awesome to see someone with strong views on VT, it seems like it is generally overwhelmingly the opposite.

[Sage]

Awesome to see someone with strong views on VT, it seems like it is generally overwhelmingly the opposite.

The only strong view I hold is that strong views are very often wrong. Interpret that any way you like.

[Perseus]

I hate him as a politician, as a president and as a man. Obama represents everything that is wrong with this world. He employs evil policies that are designed by ignorance or intent to bring this country to its knees and destroy it. What he is doing will take the greatest country this planet has ever known and will reduce it to nothing. The vast wealth of the nation is being destroyed each minute with his printing of audacious amounts of money and the spending of it. He is our Helen of Troy, a Cassius and Stalin. He will bring nothing but treason, pestilence and destruction to our nation. I think he will be assassinated and deserves it. That's what I think of our President.

I may not like Obama, but I do not think he deserves to be assassinated.
Killing out of haste because you don't like someone is just wrong.

[laurita_21]

i think that he is a legend :D !! and still people are giving him a hard time because they are racist ! he is the first black president of the USA and thats a pretty big deal.
He is a good man who only means to do good and still people think he is just gonna sit in his desk doing nothing. :D:D:D:D yes. im proud of Obama :D:D:D:D

[woody92]

i think that he is a legend :D !! and still people are giving him a hard time because they are racist ! he is the first black president of the USA and thats a pretty big deal.
He is a good man who only means to do good and still people think he is just gonna sit in his desk doing nothing. :D:D:D:D yes. im proud of Obama :D:D:D:D

I think the same. I think it was a HUGE deal when he won the elections. I think he is a really nice and positive man.

[theOperaGhost]

i think that he is a legend :D !! and still people are giving him a hard time because they are racist ! he is the first black president of the USA and thats a pretty big deal.
He is a good man who only means to do good and still people think he is just gonna sit in his desk doing nothing. :D:D:D:D yes. im proud of Obama :D:D:D:D

And you're one of the people I can't stand....saying that anyone who disagrees with Obama is a racist is just plain ignorant.

I'm a conservative...there's strike one against Obama
I don't like most of his policies...there's strike two against Obama
I don't like his attitude and his quick mouth...he seems to speak before he thinks and it's got him in trouble a few times...there's strike three against Obama.

About half (around 48 or 49%) of the population of the US is not liberal...meaning about that amount of the population are not going to agree completely on his policies. That does not make them racist.

If a black person disagrees with McCain, are they racist? According to what you say, they are.

Don't be ignorant.

[The Batman]

And you're one of the people I can't stand....saying that anyone who disagrees with Obama is a racist is just plain ignorant.

I'm a conservative...there's strike one against Obama
I don't like most of his policies...there's strike two against Obama
I don't like his attitude and his quick mouth...he seems to speak before he thinks and it's got him in trouble a few times...there's strike three against Obama.

About half (around 48 or 49%) of the population of the US is not liberal...meaning about that amount of the population are not going to agree completely on his policies. That does not make them racist.

If a black person disagrees with McCain, are they racist? According to what you say, they are.

Don't be ignorant.
You say all the time that people voted for him because of his race so why can't people think that most people hate him because of his race? You can give as many reason why you don't like them but they could just as easily be you trying to rationalize it.

[theOperaGhost]

You say all the time that people voted for him because of his race so why can't people think that most people hate him because of his race? You can give as many reason why you don't like them but they could just as easily be you trying to rationalize it.

It's an ignorant statement to say that anyone who disagrees with him is racist. If a black man disagrees with him, is he racist too?

There are many reasons to disagree with a president other than race. Every president in the history of this country has faced opposition, so why is it that when the president is black, that opposition is automatically called racism? I voted for who I thought the better candidate was...regardless of race. If the election had gone down between Clinton and McCain, I would have still voted for McCain..but I guess that would make me a sexist then, wouldn't it? It was really a lose-lose for anyone with conservative views...we vote against Obama and we're all racists, we vote against Clinton and we're all sexist...there was no winning for the conservatives of our country.

[Rutherford The Brave]

i think that he is a legend :D !! and still people are giving him a hard time because they are racist ! he is the first black president of the USA and thats a pretty big deal.
He is a good man who only means to do good and still people think he is just gonna sit in his desk doing nothing. :D:D:D:D yes. im proud of Obama :D:D:D:D

And you're one of the people I can't stand....saying that anyone who disagrees with Obama is a racist is just plain ignorant.

I'm a conservative...there's strike one against Obama
I don't like most of his policies...there's strike two against Obama
I don't like his attitude and his quick mouth...he seems to speak before he thinks and it's got him in trouble a few times...there's strike three against Obama.

About half (around 48 or 49%) of the population of the US is not liberal...meaning about that amount of the population are not going to agree completely on his policies. That does not make them racist.

If a black person disagrees with McCain, are they racist? According to what you say, they are.

Don't be ignorant.

Obama is not liberal, I think Obama is a dino. I am a far left person, probably as far as you can go before reaching communism. I do not like him one bit, infact I could venture to say I hate him.

[woody92]

Obama is not liberal, I think Obama is a dino. I am a far left person, probably as far as you can go before reaching communism. I do not like him one bit, infact I could venture to say I hate him.

In my book thats PURE racisim:(

[Rainstorm]

Now that is being a PURE RACIST IN MY BOOK!:mad::mad::mad::mad:

Just because he doesn't agree with Obama's political views does not mean he is racist.

[Rutherford The Brave]

Now that is being a PURE RACIST IN MY BOOK!:mad::mad::mad::mad:

Wah wah, Dino mean Democrat in name only, in no way am I being racist.

[woody92]

Just because he doesn't agree with Obama's political views does not mean he is racist.

IT does when he uses "HATE"

Wah wah, Dino mean Democrat in name only, in no way am I being racist.

In my book "HATE" is recist. you could have used a better word like "I dissagree, I dislike, etc".

http://www.selfknowledge.com/43142.htm thats the true meaning of "HATE"

[Rainstorm]

IT does when he uses "HATE"


So, if I say I hate you, I'm racist.

That's just dumb. One of the definitions is "to dislike intensely". That's most likely what Greg means

Anyway, back to the OP, I don't like Obama. He was not a politician for very long, and, like Greg said, is trying to be the twenty first century FDR.

[woody92]

So, if I say I hate you, I'm racist.

That's just dumb. One of the definitions is "to dislike intensely". That's most likely what Greg means

Anyway, back to the OP, I don't like Obama. He was not a politician for very long, and, like Greg said, is trying to be the twenty first century FDR.

OK, maybe I was abit hasty, but i dont agree with the worrd "HATE" very much. Ok i do use but not often. BTW I have DONT "hate" anyone not even you nor Greg. I am sure your nice people, I just disagree with some of your veiws. NO HARD FEELINGS

[Raptor22]

i think that he is a legend :D !! and still people are giving him a hard time because they are racist ! he is the first black president of the USA and thats a pretty big deal.
He is a good man who only means to do good and still people think he is just gonna sit in his desk doing nothing. :D:D:D:D yes. im proud of Obama :D:D:D:D

I dont get why people give a fat fuck what color his skin is, I couldnt care less, I dont agree with his policies.

I think the same. I think it was a HUGE deal when he won the elections. I think he is a really nice and positive man.

It doesnt matter, niceness and positivity does not qualify you to lead the free world.

And you're one of the people I can't stand....saying that anyone who disagrees with Obama is a racist is just plain ignorant.

I'm a conservative...there's strike one against Obama
I don't like most of his policies...there's strike two against Obama
I don't like his attitude and his quick mouth...he seems to speak before he thinks and it's got him in trouble a few times...there's strike three against Obama.

About half (around 48 or 49%) of the population of the US is not liberal...meaning about that amount of the population are not going to agree completely on his policies. That does not make them racist.

If a black person disagrees with McCain, are they racist? According to what you say, they are.

Don't be ignorant.

Great post man. :)

You say all the time that people voted for him because of his race so why can't people think that most people hate him because of his race? You can give as many reason why you don't like them but they could just as easily be you trying to rationalize it.

Im sure there is a very small minority that hate him solely based on race, but the majority of the others is opposed to his social, foreign, or economic policies.

IT does when he uses "HATE"



In my book "HATE" is recist. you could have used a better word like "I dissagree, I dislike, etc".

http://www.selfknowledge.com/43142.htm thats the true meaning of "HATE"

You can hate someone without invoking race. If I said I hate you (which I dont), im not being racist, im white too.

[woody92]

You can hate someone without invoking race. If I said I hate you (which I dont), im not being racist, im white too.

yea i know you dont hate me lol. But if you read I did say that maybe i was a bit hasty in replying to this thread and I am sorrry for it.
It wont happen again I hope the post below is where i said i was too hasty

OK, maybe I was abit hasty, but i dont agree with the worrd "HATE" very much. Ok i do use but not often. BTW I have DONT "hate" anyone not even you nor Greg. I am sure your nice people, I just disagree with some of your veiws. NO HARD FEELINGS

[Raptor22]

yea i know you dont hate me lol. But if you read I did say that maybe i was a bit hasty in replying to this thread and I am sorrry for it.
It wont happen again I hope the post below is where i said i was too hasty

Ah, you are right woody I missed that. ;)

Forgiven, I agree with your sentiments in the second post. :)

[Antares]

First off, I am deeply disturbed by the people that happen to be right winged saying the stuff they are saying!
It is truly appauling and I can't believe that people actually believe this and/or are saying this. Honestly, its scary and shows that our country isn't making too much progress.

I hate him as a politician, as a president and as a man. Obama represents everything that is wrong with this world. He employs evil policies that are designed by ignorance or intent to bring this country to its knees and destroy it. What he is doing will take the greatest country this planet has ever known and will reduce it to nothing. The vast wealth of the nation is being destroyed each minute with his printing of audacious amounts of money and the spending of it. He is our Helen of Troy, a Cassius and Stalin. He will bring nothing but treason, pestilence and destruction to our nation. I think he will be assassinated and deserves it. That's what I think of our President.You hate him as a man? You barely know the guy really. He represents terrorism, maybe atheism (depending on your beliefs), homosexuality (d.o.y.b.), war, poverty, etc?
What kinda drugs are you on?!
There are no evil policies that are specifically designed to bring this country down. If anything it is to make it better. That is the point of government and I will go on a limb and say that is a completely radical statement and just scary to hear said.

We are not the greatest country. There are many flaws and some of his policies aim to fix that. Plus, if anything this country started falling from the top when Bush stepped in office and continued during both of his terms.

The wealth isn't being diminished because it was never there. We have been in enormous amounts of debt since...the beginning of the country. Especially after wars, so maybe if Bush didn't start the pointless Iraq war...we would be a couple trillion dollars out of the hole. Can't blame Obama for that...

You sound completely sadistic and I can't believe you actually have these views. Comparing a person that was born in our country, a citizen, a public leader, and our publically elected president as basically communistic is outrageous.

Even if he were he doesn't deserved to be killed because he hasn't done much. He has a family, a life, and a future.
Shouldn't be taken away just because you have very extremist views.

Honestly, it scares me that you think this and the scarier fact is that I am sure you are not the only one...

[kyle56]

i dont get why bush is critizied so much. He comes into office..Then boom 9/11 happens i think he did the best thing that could have been done b/c if it wasnt for him and wanting to declare war our country would have been attacked so many times more

[Antares]

i dont get why bush is critizied so much. He comes into office..Then boom 9/11 happens i think he did the best thing that could have been done b/c if it wasnt for him and wanting to declare war our country would have been attacked so many times more

Yea...but we don't know all of the facts. A lot of people vehemently deny this but what if he knew about 9/11, whatever whatever. The list goes on and on.

On the other hand Iraq...

[Raptor22]

Yea...but we don't know all of the facts. A lot of people vehemently deny this but what if he knew about 9/11, whatever whatever. The list goes on and on.

On the other hand Iraq...

Intel was sketchy, the UN recommended action, Saddam wouldnt allow inspectors into the country, satellites thought they saw something, basically convincing our government including Joe Biden and Hillary Clinton to vote on action in Iraq. While it was basically a huge clusterfuck for a while, it has gotten better and we removed a dictator who killed three quarters of a million people.

You would probably have done the same thing when presented with the intelligence (no matter how bad it was, its all you could go by, right?).

Same as Obama campaigning to pull out of the middle east, but once elected and presented with the actual briefings (that none of us have access to) the president elected to finish the job in Iraq and fix Afghanistan, a decision that is admirable in my book. One of the few things that Obama has done that I actually like. Since being elected on a far left platform, Obama has increasingly moved towards the middle with his foreign policy.

Bush also had six years of solid economic growth until domestic fuel regulation and the Clinton Equal housing bill caught up with us. The GOP saw it coming, and Barney Frank and the libs kept the train chugging along off the cliff.

Just watch, let me know what you think: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMnSp4qEXNM

[Antares]

Intel was sketchy, the UN recommended action, Saddam wouldnt allow inspectors into the country, satellites thought they saw something, basically convincing our government including Joe Biden and Hillary Clinton to vote on action in Iraq. While it was basically a huge clusterfuck for a while, it has gotten better and we removed a dictator who killed three quarters of a million people.

No, I wouldn't have started a war over sketchy intel....
No one in their right mind would.

If you are going to start sacrificing lives, your intel better be A+.

We basically run the UN so if they recommended action you can suspect it was mostly from us pushing for it. Satelites THOUGHT? So Saddam wouldn't allow inspectors...he has complete power over the country, not our problem. Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, along with the 433 other congresspeople who were basically kinda being forced because of the fear/propoganda the white house was instilling.

Whatever, Iraq, completely unjustified.

[theOperaGhost]

The congress people were not forced to vote the way they voted...they have minds of their own.

[Antares]

When you are an elected congressman, if the white house and executive branch in general tell the american public that they are in danger if we dont do such and such.
That congressman would be crazy to not vote with the rest.
Probably wouldn't be elected the next time

[Raptor22]

No, I wouldn't have started a war over sketchy intel....
No one in their right mind would.

If you are going to start sacrificing lives, your intel better be A+.

We basically run the UN so if they recommended action you can suspect it was mostly from us pushing for it. Satelites THOUGHT? So Saddam wouldn't allow inspectors...he has complete power over the country, not our problem. Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, along with the 433 other congresspeople who were basically kinda being forced because of the fear/propoganda the white house was instilling.

Whatever, Iraq, completely unjustified.

The congress people were not forced to vote the way they voted...they have minds of their own.

When you are an elected congressman, if the white house and executive branch in general tell the american public that they are in danger if we dont do such and such.
That congressman would be crazy to not vote with the rest.
Probably wouldn't be elected the next time

Senators and congresspeople have access to the same intel as the high ups...

If it was all the white house, the UN and the UK and many others wouldnt have voted to come in with us.

[Boredomino]

I love Obama. Remember: don't expect a magic bullet. He can't just end wars and solve financial crisis like that *snaps fingers*.

But come on, compare him to the United States' last president:
"misunderestimated"?
"I know the human being and fish can co-exist peacefully"?
"Is our children learning?"
"Our enemies never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we"?

Would you rather have him or Obama? No brainer, really.

[Perseus]

I love Obama. Remember: don't expect a magic bullet. He can't just end wars and solve financial crisis like that *snaps fingers*.

But come on, compare him to the United States' last president:
"misunderestimated"?
"I know the human being and fish can co-exist peacefully"?
"Is our children learning?"
"Our enemies never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we"?

Would you rather have him or Obama? No brainer, really.

See, I'm quite smart and I make grammatical errors a lot when I speak. Just becuase Bush made grammatical errors doesn't make him any less of a president. I mean, I bet Obama has made grammatical errors before.

[Raptor22]

I love Obama. Remember: don't expect a magic bullet. He can't just end wars and solve financial crisis like that *snaps fingers*.

But come on, compare him to the United States' last president:
"misunderestimated"?
"I know the human being and fish can co-exist peacefully"?
"Is our children learning?"
"Our enemies never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we"?

Would you rather have him or Obama? No brainer, really.

Just because he wasnt good at speaking in front of people doesnt mean he was retarded or bad at foreign policy or economics, Obama thinks there are 57 states in the Union and Joe Biden never stops saying stupid shit...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrsBKGpwi58

Obama's an idiot without his teleprompter too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThEAO0lt4Dw&NR=1&

[theOperaGhost]

I love Obama. Remember: don't expect a magic bullet. He can't just end wars and solve financial crisis like that *snaps fingers*.

But come on, compare him to the United States' last president:
"misunderestimated"?
"I know the human being and fish can co-exist peacefully"?
"Is our children learning?"
"Our enemies never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we"?

Would you rather have him or Obama? No brainer, really.

I'd choose Bush, honestly.

I think these two have proved your point to be moot. Being a bad public speaker doesn't mean you have low intelligence and being a good public speaker doesn't mean you have high intelligence. I'm quite smart but don't have the greatest public speaking skills in the world, but I know people who can't pass a single test and have excellent public speaking skills.

See, I'm quite smart and I make grammatical errors a lot when I speak. Just becuase Bush made grammatical errors doesn't make him any less of a president. I mean, I bet Obama has made grammatical errors before.

Just because he wasnt good at speaking in front of people doesnt mean he was retarded or bad at foreign policy or economics, Obama thinks there are 57 states in the Union and Joe Biden never stops saying stupid shit...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrsBKGpwi58

Obama's an idiot without his teleprompter too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThEAO0lt4Dw&NR=1&

[Rutherford The Brave]

I'd never get caught picking Bush or anyone like that. Even Obama. This country needs a business man. A man/woman of the people, A man/woman who knows what the people like. A man/woman that knows how to lead us out of this "Conflict" In the middle east. One who can lead us back to where we need to be. Not someone with alot of silly promises and what not. I want someone who can sway me with their words, not make me rethink my position.

I say man or woman because these days it is intirely possible that we could have a woman president soon.

[Sage]

I love Obama. Remember: don't expect a magic bullet. He can't just end wars and solve financial crisis like that *snaps fingers*.

But come on, compare him to the United States' last president:
"misunderestimated"?
"I know the human being and fish can co-exist peacefully"?
"Is our children learning?"
"Our enemies never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we"?

Would you rather have him or Obama? No brainer, really.

That only proves that Obama is a better speaker. I'd prefer him over Bush myself, but if you're going to argue against Bush, use some real reasons, mmk?

[The Joker]

yea but there is still a huge precent of ppl tht voted for him b/c of his skin color. and many ppl tht voted for him dont support him anymore

Not a huge percent. He's a fucking smart man, that's why he was elected.

hey rich u have a point obama was mainly elected because of his race. also he made to many promises that will never happen. he hasnt with drew any troops but only sent more

He withdrew them from the major cities of Iraq.

oh alright well i dont care anymore i hate obama and always will he sucks

Why do you think he sucks? You've been proven wrong on everything and choose to be mega ignorant and say "lol he sucks even though everything I think about him is wrong". What an epic fail of an argument.

yea he just needs to stick with a larger problem and work with that like the war. the health care thing is bs and the people tht want it r the lazy one that could go out and look for a job and buy their own.

Your health care costs a lot of money. A lot of people have lost their job in America, so many can't afford it. Why let rich people get the best health care and let poor/middle class people suffer?

I don't get the American health care system as it is right now.

[theOperaGhost]

I don't get the Canadian health care system as it is right now either...all I hear are bad things about it. At least here you don't get turned down and put on year long waiting lists. Ever wonder why so many Canadians and even Brits come to America for health care?

[CaptainObvious]

I don't get the Canadian health care system as it is right now either...all I hear are bad things about it. At least here you don't get turned down and put on year long waiting lists. Ever wonder why so many Canadians and even Brits come to America for health care?

That is sadly just ignorant. In fact, in America you get "turned down" all the more; in Canada no medically necessary procedure will ever be refused, while in America gaming by insurance companies leads to that kind of thing happening all the time.

And no, I don't wonder why some (it's not many) Canadians and Brits go to America for care: it's because the very richest can get the best care in the world in America. But you don't build a system around just the very rich, you build it for an entire society, and America's model is deficient in that regard.

[quartermaster]

Bush was a horrible president and Obama is a horrible president. They are both dangers to social and economic freedoms and advocate the continuous passage of unconstitutional bills/ laws and government actions (Patriot Act, Health Care bill, the list continues). Take it from the very writers of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence.

"A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government." Thomas Jefferson

"With respect to the two words ‘general welfare,' I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators."
James Madison


"The policy of the American government is to leave their citizens free, neither restraining nor aiding them in their pursuits."
Thomas Jefferson

"I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments by those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations."
James Madison

"To take from one because it is thought that his own industry and that of his father’s has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association—the guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it."
Thomas Jefferson

"The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined . . . to be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce."
James Madison

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."
Thomas Jefferson

"If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy."
James Madison
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin

[theOperaGhost]

That is sadly just ignorant. In fact, in America you get "turned down" all the more; in Canada no medically necessary procedure will ever be refused, while in America gaming by insurance companies leads to that kind of thing happening all the time.

And no, I don't wonder why some (it's not many) Canadians and Brits go to America for care: it's because the very richest can get the best care in the world in America. But you don't build a system around just the very rich, you build it for an entire society, and America's model is deficient in that regard.

Doctors cannot legally deny you health care.

[CaptainObvious]

Doctors cannot legally deny you health care.

That is a very simplistic and irrelevant response to what I said. Indeed, if one shows up in an emergency room one must be given acute care; however that does not mean that lifesaving treatments for diseases that are not acute - like cancer or other long term ailments - cannot be denied. They are, regularly, by the insurance companies.

Bush was a horrible president and Obama is a horrible president. They are both dangers to social and economic freedoms and advocate the continuous passage of unconstitutional bills/ laws and government actions (Patriot Act, Health Care bill, the list continues). Take it from the very writers of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence.

...a list of quotes is an extremely poor substitute for an argument. Based on those quotes, I'd assume you'd agree with me that I deserve to drive around in a battle tank and own a few rocket launchers, in the name of freedom. Because those "who would give up essential liberty..." and all...

I'd choose Bush, honestly.

I think these two have proved your point to be moot. Being a bad public speaker doesn't mean you have low intelligence and being a good public speaker doesn't mean you have high intelligence. I'm quite smart but don't have the greatest public speaking skills in the world, but I know people who can't pass a single test and have excellent public speaking skills.

That is wildly unjustifiable. Bush presided over a destruction of America's credibility overseas; he cut taxes on the rich and financed those tax cuts almost entirely through debt, putting America in a much worse strategic economic position; he plunged America into an unnecessary war that has further added to that massive debt load; and after all the lives and money wasted, America is not notably safer than before. Putting locks on cockpit doors has done more good for America's security than the hundreds of billions of dollars and thousands of lives wasted by Bush. Which is a pretty pathetic outcome, when you think about it.

Please explain how Obama has so far been worse than that. No possible evenhanded assessment could conclude that at this point. Obama has been hamstrung by a barely filibuster-proof majority in the senate that has gutted his healthcare bill and stopped him from pursuing other parts of his agenda; that is not his fault. He inherited the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression as well as Bush's massive debts and both of his wars. How can you say you would choose Bush when faced with this?

Just because he wasnt good at speaking in front of people doesnt mean he was retarded or bad at foreign policy or economics, Obama thinks there are 57 states in the Union and Joe Biden never stops saying stupid shit...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrsBKGpwi58

Obama's an idiot without his teleprompter too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThEAO0lt4Dw&NR=1&

Letterman picking out a bunch of Obama saying "uh", which is as much due to how much Obama must tone down his normally academic speaking style for the stupidity of the Ameria public as anything else, is a far cry from Bush's regular mangling of the English language.

We could go all the way back to Bush's academic career if we wanted to discuss his intelligence. It wasn't a good career. Further, prior to becoming President, Bush was Governor of Texas. Which most people think is impressive, until you realize that in Texas the Governor has less practical responsibility and power than the Lieutenant Governor; then you realize why Bush has been such a disaster. Riding on Daddy's coattails to the Presidency makes for a poor President.

I hate him as a politician, as a president and as a man. Obama represents everything that is wrong with this world. He employs evil policies that are designed by ignorance or intent to bring this country to its knees and destroy it. What he is doing will take the greatest country this planet has ever known and will reduce it to nothing. The vast wealth of the nation is being destroyed each minute with his printing of audacious amounts of money and the spending of it. He is our Helen of Troy, a Cassius and Stalin. He will bring nothing but treason, pestilence and destruction to our nation. I think he will be assassinated and deserves it. That's what I think of our President.

And what would you have him do? The healthcare plan will ravage America's budget because special interests in Congress have made it impossible to implement a truly cost-effective single-payer two-tier system for America; because of conservatives and conservative Democrats it has become a handout to the insurance companies. That's not Obama's fault.

As for the economic stimulus, what other option is there? Credit markets are still barely recovering; without stimulus this crisis would be much, much worse, and even if that still makes you unhappy about it that's not valid basis for criticism of Obama unless you have a better suggestion for a course of action. Right now, all it seems you have is vitriol and complaining.

[quartermaster]

...a list of quotes is an extremely poor substitute for an argument. Based on those quotes, I'd assume you'd agree with me that I deserve to drive around in a battle tank and own a few rocket launchers, in the name of freedom. Because those "who would give up essential liberty..." and all...



You are an authority on such a matter how?

Even then, it is irrelevant, as I was showing that I do not really need to argue much of anything, as, per my quotes, the arguments have already been made.

As absurd as you may think your example may be, I would say that as Americans, given the constitution, we are well within our rights to own tanks and rocket launchers. Now, your assumption, however, is a fallacy in the form of a hasty generalization, as I never said that states did not have the right to ban such things. A federal ban on any arm is wholly unconstitutional (that is, if the constitution is not amended), but a state law against such, is not; insofar as the state constitutions allow for such things.

Another mistake is that you said, "deserve," deserving to "own" anything is a positive right, which is not only against the principles of the constitution and the framers, but are nonexistent in the constitution itself; thus an example of you putting more words into my mouth, vis-à-vis, an argumentative fallacy. The United States constitution provides a negative rights system, whereby the government prevents the usurpation of rights and the coercion therein, but it does not give us anything. It is a non-maleficent system, not a beneficent system, my friend. So no, you do not "deserve" a tank or a rocket launcher, just as you do not "deserve" a house or car, but given the constitution, you are well within your right to not have the federal government ban you from acquiring them.

It would behoove you to educate yourself on constitutional law or at least not make massive assumptions in argumentation, because in your attempt to be clever (I assume clever), you simply became fallacious.

[Rebecca L Vaughn]

I believe Obama got more votes from people by lying because out of the 10 huge promises he made for America, he has only attempted to complete one. He has also used all of his money for his 4 years in office in the first three months. I believe Bush was better because he was not trying to be much of a 'people's man', like Obama. He also had to clean up all of Clinton's mess so it made it harder for him to function. Another reason I think Obama was elected, was the colour of his skin. Most people I talk to that voted say that they wanted a black president and that It would make history. When the second election comes around, I honestly think that he will not make it again, due to the popular dislike standers people have now.

-But then again, it is my opinion so don't take my word for it and don't criticize.

[theOperaGhost]

Letterman picking out a bunch of Obama saying "uh", which is as much due to how much Obama must tone down his normally academic speaking style for the stupidity of the Ameria public as anything else, is a far cry from Bush's regular mangling of the English language.


Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!

Obama is forced to dumb down his speeches because he's so god damn smart. I see that as condescending and I sure as hell don't want a fucking president who thinks he's better than everyone. I suppose just because you're Canadian, you're smarter than every god damn america too, right? Yeah...fuck off, bitch.

I guess it is the stupidity of America that would vote for a candidate just because of his skin color and his public speaking abilities.

[kyle56]

yes i know what u r talking about that some people believe that 9/11 was an inside job..but what about all the other terror scares..like the london subway bombing ur saying that london maybe knew about that or the Christmas day event to..

[Rutherford The Brave]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!

Obama is forced to dumb down his speeches because he's so god damn smart. I see that as condescending and I sure as hell don't want a fucking president who thinks he's better than everyone. I suppose just because you're Canadian, you're smarter than every god damn america too, right? Yeah...fuck off, bitch.

I guess it is the stupidity of America that would vote for a candidate just because of his skin color and his public speaking abilities.

People didnt vote for Obama because they are stupid. Yeah it is stupid to vote that way, but its better than voting for a guy who uses the fact the fact that he was a POW in a conflict. (I say conflict because I do not agknowledge Vietnam as a war.)

[theOperaGhost]

People didnt vote for Obama because they are stupid. Yeah it is stupid to vote that way, but its better than voting for a guy who uses the fact the fact that he was a POW in a conflict. (I say conflict because I do not agknowledge Vietnam as a war.)

That's because Vietnam wasn't a war...it was a military conflict.

[Rutherford The Brave]

That's because Vietnam wasn't a war...it was a military conflict.

Thats what I said XD

[Antares]

Everyone, please be respectful when debating and please don't use foul or disrespectful language to other members.

This will result in an infraction.

Continuez!

[Apparitions]

I hate him as a politician, as a president and as a man. Obama represents everything that is wrong with this world. He employs evil policies that are designed by ignorance or intent to bring this country to its knees and destroy it. What he is doing will take the greatest country this planet has ever known and will reduce it to nothing. The vast wealth of the nation is being destroyed each minute with his printing of audacious amounts of money and the spending of it. He is our Helen of Troy, a Cassius and Stalin. He will bring nothing but treason, pestilence and destruction to our nation. I think he will be assassinated and deserves it. That's what I think of our President.
I disagree with you on one thing. America isn't, wasn't and never will be the greatest country the world has ever known. Anyway I dislike Obama and him being a celebrity when presidents shouldn't be. From my limited knowledge of him I think he promises lots and delivers very little. I can't recall most of his policies anyway. His idea to give free healthcare to Americans is the only thing he has come up with that I like. I live in the UK where we have this and it mostly works. Having to make people pay for healthcare is discrimination IMO. Whether it would work in a country the size of the USA I don't know though. Apart from this I don't like Obama as he was voted in for the wrong reasons, gave promises that he won't/can't keep and he reminds me of an American Tony Blair who I hate. I wanted the guy who used to be mayor of New York to become president. There's a guy who knows how to run stuff.

[Antares]

I disagree with you on one thing. America isn't, wasn't and never will be the greatest country the world has ever known. Anyway I dislike and do not trust Obama. From my limited knowledge of him I think he promises lots and delivers very little. I can't recall most of his policies anyway. His idea to give free healthcare to Americans is the only thing he has come up with that I like. I live in the UK where we have this and it mostly works. Having to make people pay for healthcare is discrimination IMO. Whether it would work in a country the size of the USA I don't know though. Apart from this I don't like Obama as he was voted in for the wrong reasons, gave promises that he won't/can't keep and he reminds me of an American Tony Blair who I hate. I wanted the guy who used to be mayor of New York to become president. There's a guy who knows how to run stuff.

Okay, so you dislike and distrust Obama, yet you are working on limited knowledge 3,000 miles across the ocean, with only 1/4 years nearly done, and think that charging people for healthcare is discrimination??
You can't even recall his policies?

Seems like you don't have much basis to distrust or dislike him from I can tell.

[soccer8]

god obama is one of the worst things that has happend to the usa hes made more speechs than days hes been inn office and hasnt done anything he says he going to and he just wanted to be the first black president but has no idea what hes doing and is already lossing his reputation he wont last the citizens wont allow it

[Antares]

god obama is one of the worst things that has happend to the usa hes made more speechs than days hes been inn office and hasnt done anything he says he going to and he just wanted to be the first black president but has no idea what hes doing and is already lossing his reputation he wont last the citizens wont allow it

Making speeches is SOOOOOOOOOOO bad.
Presidents should never make speeches.
How dare he.

/sarc

He wanted to be president to change transform the country...most good presidents have that aim when going into office.
Didn't want to be the first BLACK president necessarily. Just to be a president. Which shouldn't matter.

He hasn't done anything he said hes going to do in his first year in office...thats pretty untrue.
Do you watch the news?!

What do you mean he won't last?
He has 3 more years...

[Perseus]

god obama is one of the worst things that has happend to the usa hes made more speechs than days hes been inn office and hasnt done anything he says he going to and he just wanted to be the first black president but has no idea what hes doing and is already lossing his reputation he wont last the citizens wont allow it

Wait.. what..?
Can you re-word that please? I didn't understand it at all, really.

[Apparitions]

Okay, so you dislike and distrust Obama, yet you are working on limited knowledge 3,000 miles across the ocean, with only 1/4 years nearly done, and think that charging people for healthcare is discrimination??
You can't even recall his policies?

Seems like you don't have much basis to distrust or dislike him from I can tell.
I probably don't have much basis to dislike him. I don't like how he is like a celebrity which distracts some people from the stuff that really matters. Maybe you could give me some of his policies so that I have more of a basis to have an opinion of him. Anyway explain how charging for healthcare is not discrimination. It is discriminating against people who can't afford to pay for healthcare. Surely it is fair to let everyone live a healthy life?

[CaptainObvious]

I believe Obama got more votes from people by lying because out of the 10 huge promises he made for America, he has only attempted to complete one. He has also used all of his money for his 4 years in office in the first three months. I believe Bush was better because he was not trying to be much of a 'people's man', like Obama. He also had to clean up all of Clinton's mess so it made it harder for him to function. Another reason I think Obama was elected, was the colour of his skin. Most people I talk to that voted say that they wanted a black president and that It would make history. When the second election comes around, I honestly think that he will not make it again, due to the popular dislike standers people have now.

-But then again, it is my opinion so don't take my word for it and don't criticize.

I won't take your word for it, but I will be criticizing. So, let's start:

Obama had to spend on the stimulus. No choice, the credit markets were - and still are, to an extent - in extremely precarious position, and America's economy is in the worst downturn since the Great Depression. But he hasn't spent "all his money for 4 years" in the first 3 months, that's a joke and an ignorant statement. Moreover, under whose watch did the housing bubble and crash occur? Our good friend GWB. Who financed tax cuts for the rich with debt, leaving Obama in a much worse position than potentially possible in this ecnomic downturn (from which deficit spending is one of the only good routes out)? Our good friend GWB.

Actually, on that note, let me express how significantly hilarious I find it that you think George Bush had a hard time with Clinton's mess. What mess? Compared to those Bush left, Clinton was a saint. Obama inherited a disastrous economy, a debt ballooned by Bush's tax cuts and his 2 wars, and oh, those 2 wars themselves. What exactly did Clinton leave Bush that was so horrible?

Obama is forced to dumb down his speeches because he's so god damn smart. I see that as condescending and I sure as hell don't want a fucking president who thinks he's better than everyone.

You're welcome to see it as condescending. That won't make your view other than stupid. It is well known that the most effective level of discourse with the American public is effectively that of a person in grade school; you think Obama talks like that normally? No, he does not, and if he talked that way in speeches you'd probably be complaining about him acting high and mighty by using big words and complex construction. With irrational dislike such as yours, there's no winning.

I suppose just because you're Canadian, you're smarter than every god damn america too, right? Yeah...fuck off, bitch.

Yep, I said that. Ohhhh wait, no I didn't. I sincerely hope this was the post you got frozen for, because it's wildly stupid. Hilariously so.

I guess it is the stupidity of America that would vote for a candidate just because of his skin color and his public speaking abilities.

You keep suggesting Obama was elected because of the color of his skin. Please, substantiate that assertion.

[Rutherford The Brave]

I won't take your word for it, but I will be criticizing. So, let's start:

Obama had to spend on the stimulus. No choice, the credit markets were - and still are, to an extent - in extremely precarious position, and America's economy is in the worst downturn since the Great Depression. But he hasn't spent "all his money for 4 years" in the first 3 months, that's a joke and an ignorant statement. Moreover, under whose watch did the housing bubble and crash occur? Our good friend GWB. Who financed tax cuts for the rich with debt, leaving Obama in a much worse position than potentially possible in this ecnomic downturn (from which deficit spending is one of the only good routes out)? Our good friend GWB.

Actually, on that note, let me express how significantly hilarious I find it that you think George Bush had a hard time with Clinton's mess. What mess? Compared to those Bush left, Clinton was a saint. Obama inherited a disastrous economy, a debt ballooned by Bush's tax cuts and his 2 wars, and oh, those 2 wars themselves. What exactly did Clinton leave Bush that was so horrible?



You're welcome to see it as condescending. That won't make your view other than stupid. It is well known that the most effective level of discourse with the American public is effectively that of a person in grade school; you think Obama talks like that normally? No, he does not, and if he talked that way in speeches you'd probably be complaining about him acting high and mighty by using big words and complex construction. With irrational dislike such as yours, there's no winning.



Yep, I said that. Ohhhh wait, no I didn't. I sincerely hope this was the post you got frozen for, because it's wildly stupid. Hilariously so.



You keep suggesting Obama was elected because of the color of his skin. Please, substantiate that assertion.

Apparently somewhere around 17% of African Americans voted in prior elections and an roughly around 85% voted in the last election, for Obama. Sadly it is a fact, these statistics however are what I heard through the grape vine.

[CaptainObvious]

Apparently somewhere around 17% of African Americans voted in prior elections and an roughly around 85% voted in the last election, for Obama. Sadly it is a fact, these statistics however are what I heard through the grape vine.

Oh I don't doubt that the black turnout was higher, that's for sure. But black people always monolithically back Democrats anyways, so the higher turnout doesn't mean their voting patterns changed significantly, just that they were brought out in muchhigher numbers, which could just as well be credited to Obama's grassroots organization as anything else. But there's a difference between high turnout and people voting for a candidate based on the color of his skin.

[Rutherford The Brave]

Oh I don't doubt that the black turnout was higher, that's for sure. But black people always monolithically back Democrats anyways, so the higher turnout doesn't mean their voting patterns changed significantly, just that they were brought out in muchhigher numbers, which could just as well be credited to Obama's grassroots organization as anything else. But there's a difference between high turnout and people voting for a candidate based on the color of his skin.

You do have a point. That I cannot come up with. I would think that with the way our country is, and I'm not trying to insinuate that our country is racist. It would be much less.

[Antares]

I probably don't have much basis to dislike him. I don't like how he is like a celebrity which distracts some people from the stuff that really matters. Maybe you could give me some of his policies so that I have more of a basis to have an opinion of him. Anyway explain how charging for healthcare is not discrimination. It is discriminating against people who can't afford to pay for healthcare. Surely it is fair to let everyone live a healthy life?

Well he is somewhat of a celebrity...more than any other president probably in the past but is that necessarily a bad thing. I feel more connected to the presidency than the Clintons or the Bushes.

If you take an AP US History class in 10 years, I think that in the text books they will probably say that his 'star status' was a good thing.
That status would probably come with a new president (black president to boot), that inherited a complete and utter mess, with technology ever growing, in a time where people are scared, and finally a person that is generally well liked and well spoken.
Is there any real reason why its bad that a president is in the news...I mean...he is making news...I'd rather see a report about our government than about Paris Hilton or Snooki parading around...

My bad, I misinterpreted your health care thing initially. I guess healthcare in it's present form can be identified as discriminatory.

Tell that to our left wing...but in the mean time, think...why would you dislike a person you have no real reason to dislike. Just for kicks?


Wait.. what..?
Can you re-word that please? I didn't understand it at all, really.

Obama shouldn't make speeches yet he makes run-on sentences...gotta love it ;)

[The Joker]

I don't get the Canadian health care system as it is right now either...all I hear are bad things about it. At least here you don't get turned down and put on year long waiting lists. Ever wonder why so many Canadians and even Brits come to America for health care?

No, we don't. My family has never EVER been put on a year long waiting list, that is a bullshit lie. My family has historically had medical problems, so I know what I'm talking about. You never get turned down and you don't wait as long as Americans think.

Please explain to me who told you this because I'd like to tell them it's complete bullshit.

[Raptor22]

Not a huge percent. He's a fucking smart man, that's why he was elected.

Not any more intelligent than McCain, and McCain had much more experience.

He withdrew them from the major cities of Iraq.

No, Bush did that. And the only reason Bush could do that was because the troop surge succeeded.

Why do you think he sucks? You've been proven wrong on everything and choose to be mega ignorant and say "lol he sucks even though everything I think about him is wrong". What an epic fail of an argument.

You basically used a whole lot of words to say a whole lot of nothing. I would rather listen to Jeremy Clarkson's analogies.

Your health care costs a lot of money. A lot of people have lost their job in America, so many can't afford it. Why let rich people get the best health care and let poor/middle class people suffer?

I don't get the American health care system as it is right now.

Its called capitalism, and thinking for ones self. Government subsidizing things is not the best way to get things done, removing regulation of the HMO bullshit and taking healthcare back to where it used to be 30 years ago is the solution. People should be able to see the doctor they want to and not have to cut thru red tape and bullshit. There needs to be more competition in the free market, not a shutting down of the free market. Im not sure what you mean by rich people except for the people that provide the vast majority of employment in this country and keep this nation afloat. The United States does not need a twelve trillion dollar liability when we are already in the hole based on the financial mess the liberals got us into.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMnSp4qEXNM

[The Batman]

Our healthcare is shit and the new bill is a good thing IMO because I've been on both sides of like now for instance I don't have a job and can't maintain one while going to school full time so unless my leg falls off I'm staying away from doctors because I can not afford the bill.

[Antares]

Our healthcare is shit and the new bill is a good thing IMO because I've been on both sides of like now for instance I don't have a job and can't maintain one while going to school full time so unless my leg falls off I'm staying away from doctors because I can not afford the bill.

Exactly!
Good people (not necessarily lazy people all the time) can't access healthcare.
Why deny them?
Its unjust.
In this day and age, all humans should be served basic healthcare by the government because our government is supposed to do what we need them to do. Serve us.

[Raptor22]

Our healthcare is shit and the new bill is a good thing IMO because I've been on both sides of like now for instance I don't have a job and can't maintain one while going to school full time so unless my leg falls off I'm staying away from doctors because I can not afford the bill.

Taxpayers and our country cant afford it either. And guess what, if you still cant afford the government plan by 2014 you go to jail. Have fun in there, hopefully you are gay so you can enjoy it.

Exactly!
Good people (not necessarily lazy people all the time) can't access healthcare.
Why deny them?
Its unjust.
In this day and age, all humans should be served basic healthcare by the government because our government is supposed to do what we need them to do. Serve us.

Where the fuck is the money going to come from? Americans are going to be saddled with an even bigger burden because healthcare costs are forced onto them by the fed...

[The Batman]

Taxpayers and our country cant afford it either. And guess what, if you still cant afford the government plan by 2014 you go to jail. Have fun in there, hopefully you are gay so you can enjoy it.



Where the fuck is the money going to come from? Americans are going to be saddled with an even bigger burden because healthcare costs are forced onto them by the fed...

If we were to cut government programs or stop spending it on pointless things(you know like the war) and transfer the funding into the healthcare then there wouldn't really be an increase in taxing. Seriously what's so hard about helping someone that can't afford to go in debt trying not to die? Also that, "Have fun in there, hopefully you are gay so you can enjoy it." was really unneeded.

[Raptor22]

If we were to cut government programs or stop spending it on pointless things(you know like the war)

You are incredibly naive. If all the majority of Americans are dead in terror attacks and the economy collapses like it did in 2002 after 9/11, lets see how much money the fed has to buy healthcare.


and transfer the funding into the healthcare then there wouldn't really be an increase in taxing. Seriously what's so hard about helping someone that can't afford to go in debt trying not to die? Also that, "Have fun in there, hopefully you are gay so you can enjoy it." was really unneeded.

Under the current plan, you will have to pay. And you will have to go to "edited out-Tiberius" (Office Space ftw) when you dont pay, unless you are trying to make a point in the method of Thoreau, you will be stuck paying for it or in jail if this shit passes.

[The Batman]

You are incredibly naive. If all the majority of Americans are dead in terror attacks and the economy collapses like it did in 2002 after 9/11, lets see how much money the fed has to buy healthcare.
this war is over there's no need to stay there and just because we pull out it won't mean they start attacking us more.


Under the current plan, you will have to pay. And you will have to go to (Office Space ftw) when you dont pay, unless you are trying to make a point in the method of Thoreau, you will be stuck paying for it or in jail if this shit passes.
Acutally my dad is in prison right now and from what he's said I'm pretty sure he's not getting his ass pounded so I would pretty much appreciate if you did insinuate that again.

Also if health care was more affordable then it would be easier for me to pay it. You're talking as if congress is going to make it so damn expensive that no one will be able to afford it.

[Raptor22]

this war is over there's no need to stay there and just because we pull out it won't mean they start attacking us more.



Clarify. Yes we are practically finished in Iraq do to the Bush troop surge and are in the process of pulling troops out but we still have a ways to go with Afghanistan, hence why Obama sent in 30,000 more troops last month.


Acutally my dad is in prison right now and from what he's said I'm pretty sure he's not getting his ass pounded so I would pretty much appreciate if you did insinuate that again.

Apologies. Was doing it more for humor value than for anything substantive. And its a movie quote... jeez. Prison still doesnt sound like heaps of fun.


Also if health care was more affordable then it would be easier for me to pay it. You're talking as if congress is going to make it so damn expensive that no one will be able to afford it.

They will because they are in over their heads, last summer congress couldnt even manage auto dismantling correctly with the cash for clunkers debacle, congress ran out of money way too soon and couldnt get the dealers paid for the cars that they killed. Having them same characters choosing my healthcare for me? Hell no.

[Antares]

Raptor, I think you fail to understand the point of a government.
According to our constitution
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility (http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#DOMTRAN), provide for the common defence (http://www.usconstitution.net/constmiss.html), promote the general Welfare (http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#WELFARE), and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity (http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#POSTERITY), do ordain (http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#ORDAIN) and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

From that little blurb, you can tell that the government was created for the people. So whatever we need, the government provides. Think of John Locke or Rousseau also and their theories.

Okay, so with that established, it makes the United States Government able to give all of its citizens healthcare. Why? Because we need it and thats the governments job.

How do we pay for it? Simple, taxes. The government has a right to impose taxes on us.
If you think about it, if taxes were levied to pay for healthcare, then it would in the end be cheaper for every family per year.

[Rutherford The Brave]

Clarify. Yes we are practically finished in Iraq do to the Bush troop surge and are in the process of pulling troops out but we still have a ways to go with Afghanistan, hence why Obama sent in 30,000 more troops last month.



Apologies. Was doing it more for humor value than for anything substantive. And its a movie quote... jeez. Prison still doesnt sound like heaps of fun.



They will because they are in over their heads, last summer congress couldnt even manage auto dismantling correctly with the cash for clunkers debacle, congress ran out of money way too soon and couldnt get the dealers paid for the cars that they killed. Having them same characters choosing my healthcare for me? Hell no.


I love how you say this all and continuelly support a man who cannot run in 2012

[quartermaster]

Raptor, I think you fail to understand the point of a government.
According to our constitution


From that little blurb, you can tell that the government was created for the people. So whatever we need, the government provides. Think of John Locke or Rousseau also and their theories.

Okay, so with that established, it makes the United States Government able to give all of its citizens healthcare. Why? Because we need it and thats the governments job.

How do we pay for it? Simple, taxes. The government has a right to impose taxes on us.
If you think about it, if taxes were levied to pay for healthcare, then it would in the end be cheaper for every family per year.

Absolutely not! That is absolutely incorrect and a clear misunderstanding of the constitution.


The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.


Those are the powers of Congress, which are expressly outlined, as you can see, they are not given the power to steal from people through taxes to fund health care or education for anyone!




The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
Amendment 10

The federal government's powers, as emphasized by the 10th amendment, are expressed and clear, all other power is given to the states.


To lay taxes to provide for the general welfare of the United States, that is to say, "to lay taxes for the purpose of providing for the general welfare." For the laying of taxes is the power, and the general welfare the purpose for which the power is to be exercised. They are not to lay taxes ad libitum for any purpose they please; but only to pay the debts or provide for the welfare of the Union. In like manner, they are not to do anything they please to provide for the general welfare, but only to lay taxes for that purpose. To consider the latter phrase, not as describing the purpose of the first, but as giving a distinct and independent power to do any act they please, which might be for the good of the Union, would render all the preceding and subsequent enumerations of power completely useless.

It would reduce the whole instrument to a single phrase, that of instituting a Congress with power to do whatever would be for the good of the United States; and, as they would be the sole judges of the good or evil, it would be also a power to do whatever evil they please.

It is an established rule of construction where a phrase will bear either of two meanings, to give it that which will allow some meaning to the other parts of the instrument, and not that which would render all the others useless. Certainly no such universal power was meant to be given them. It was intended to lace them up straitly within the enumerated powers, and those without which, as means, these powers could not be carried into effect. It is known that the very power now proposed as a means was rejected as an end by the Convention which formed the Constitution. A proposition was made to them to authorize Congress to open canals, and an amendatory one to empower them to incorporate. But the whole was rejected, and one of the reasons for rejection urged in debate was, that then they would have a power to erect a bank, which would render the great cities, where there were prejudices and jealousies on the subject, adverse to the reception of the Constitution.

2. The second general phrase is, "to make all laws necessary and proper for carrying into execution the enumerated powers." But they can all be carried into execution without a bank. A bank therefore is not necessary, and consequently not authorized by this phrase.

If has been urged that a bank will give great facility or convenience in the collection of taxes, Suppose this were true: yet the Constitution allows only the means which are "necessary," not those which are merely "convenient" for effecting the enumerated powers. If such a latitude of construction be allowed to this phrase as to give any non-enumerated power, it will go to everyone, for there is not one which ingenuity may not torture into a convenience in some instance or other, to some one of so long a list of enumerated powers. It would swallow up all the delegated powers, and reduce the whole to one power, as before observed. Therefore it was that the Constitution restrained them to the necessary means, that is to say, to those means without which the grant of power would be nugatory

Thomas Jefferson on the Constitutionality of the National Bank



The "General Welfare" clause gives Congress the power "To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States." This clause is not a grant of power to Congress (as constitutional law professor Gary Lawson has shown). It is a limit to a power given to Congress. It limits the purpose for which Congress can lay and collect taxes.

During the founding, some Anti-Federalists were concerned that this clause "amounts to an unlimited commission to exercise every power which may be alleged to be necessary for the common defence or general welfare." But James Madison, the "Father of the Constitution," explained very clearly that it granted no power to Congress. If the "General Welfare" clause gives Congress the power to promote the general welfare, then why specifically list the other powers in Article I, such as the power to establish post offices and post roads, or to coin money? Wouldn't it be redundant to list them?

In short, as Madison argued, Congress derives no power from the general welfare clause, which merely serves to limit Congress's power to lay and collect taxes. Congress can only do so for purposes of common defense or general welfare, in the service of the powers granted to it elsewhere in Article I.

Second, "Necessary and Proper" gives Congress the power "to make all laws necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States." Like the general welfare clause, this clause was not a stand-alone grant of power to Congress. Rather, it authorizes Congress to make laws that are necessary (and also proper) to make the other grants of authority in Article I effectual.

In other words, the necessary and proper clause cannot itself authorize national public health insurance. One would have to show that national public health insurance is necessary and proper to execute some other power granted in the Constitution.This puts the proponents of nationalized healthcare back where they started.

Lastly, proponents might argue that national health insurance is part of Congress power "to regulate commerce…among the several states." While progressives have often used this clause to expand the federal government, it does not apply especially to the creation of a national health insurance, because to create and engage in commerce is not the same thing as regulating commerce among the several states.

Nobody during the framing generation expected the commerce clause to expand the federal government's authority to anything relating to or resembling commerce. James Madison wrote that it is a power "which few oppose, and from which no apprehensions are entertained." The clause was designed to prevent some states from taxing goods that passed through their boundaries as those goods proceeded to market.

In case proponents of government healthcare latch on to another clause, the three clauses above and rest of Constitution are explained in depth in the Heritage Guide to the Constitution .

Of course, most progressive advocates of national health insurance are unconcerned whether the Constitution authorizes such a law when a pseudo-constitutional reasoning to reach the desired result will suffice. But constitutionalists should not allow such attempts to dismiss the Constitution go unanswered.

Heritage foundation


Quite simply Mercury, you do not understand the US constitution and twist the words to mean whatever you want them to mean, just like the activist judges, to justify theft and the expansion of government power. The constitution is the document that binds the federal government, it is the law they follow, just as we follow our own laws; to twist the first part of the constitution without actually reading the whole, is a most egregious action.

The government protects rights and does what it is expressly delegated, it does not "give the people what they want" unless the constitution is amended with such a clause in mind. What you advocate is mob rule in some respects and a tyrannous central government in another.

[Raptor22]

Raptor, I think you fail to understand the point of a government.
According to our constitution


From that little blurb, you can tell that the government was created for the people. So whatever we need, the government provides. Think of John Locke or Rousseau also and their theories.

Okay, so with that established, it makes the United States Government able to give all of its citizens healthcare. Why? Because we need it and thats the governments job.

How do we pay for it? Simple, taxes. The government has a right to impose taxes on us.
If you think about it, if taxes were levied to pay for healthcare, then it would in the end be cheaper for every family per year.

Right however Misery was supposing that we pull out of the middle east in order to do so which would not be insuring domestic Tranquility, providing for the common defense, or promoting the general Welfare and secure Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity. Our free market capitalist system allows people to provide those things for themselves. The tenth amendment of the constitution says that any rights not explicitly given to the government belong exclusively to the states or to the people, and I do not see anything relevant to healthcare in the constitution.

I love how you say this all and continuelly support a man who cannot run in 2012

My avatar and signature is facetious. I understand he cannot run, but if he could I would vote for him. Hell, if I could have anyone, I would bring Reagan back from the grave because he would provide the kind of leadership we need in a 21st century world. I would support Cheney for president though, however I would not support Sarah Palin because I am not convinced she has enough experience for the job.

[CaptainObvious]

Those are the powers of Congress, which are expressly outlined, as you can see, they are not given the power to steal from people through taxes to fund health care or education for anyone!

The 16th Amendment gives the government the right to levy taxes as it wishes, without apportionment. You might not like it, but it's part of the Constitution so you'll need to live with it.

Amendment 10

The federal government's powers, as emphasized by the 10th amendment, are expressed and clear, all other power is given to the states.

The Commerce Clause is also part of the Constitution, whether you like it or not, and provides justification for much of what Congress does. It has been overbroadly interpreted - for example, with respect to drug laws - but you're picking and choosing the parts of the Constitution that you like.

Thomas Jefferson on the Constitutionality of the National Bank

Yes... and? Jefferson's contention that a central bank is unnecessary and therefore unauthorized by the Constitution is no longer true. All of the rest of his argument thus falls apart.

[Raptor22]

The 16th Amendment gives the government the right to levy taxes as it wishes, without apportionment. You might not like it, but it's part of the Constitution so you'll need to live with it.



The Commerce Clause is also part of the Constitution, whether you like it or not, and provides justification for much of what Congress does. It has been overbroadly interpreted - for example, with respect to drug laws - but you're picking and choosing the parts of the Constitution that you like.



Yes... and? Jefferson's contention that a central bank is unnecessary and therefore unauthorized by the Constitution is no longer true. All of the rest of his argument thus falls apart.

This is tangential and unnecessary. There is nowhere in the constitution that enumerates anything related to healthcare.

[quartermaster]

The 16th Amendment gives the government the right to levy taxes as it wishes, without apportionment. You might not like it, but it's part of the Constitution so you'll need to live with it.


Your arguments are weak and have many a time been refuted in the past, which makes it much easier on me, so I guess I should thank you.

My point was not about taxes, it was about the health care bill being unconstitutional; I consider such taxes to be theft, so it was an unnecessary line, to be sure, however, that was not the basis of the argument, as my post would show. You are no arbiter on this subject, and certainly in no position to tell me to "live with" anything, so please refrain from telling me what I have to do or must believe.


The Commerce Clause is also part of the Constitution, whether you like it or not, and provides justification for much of what Congress does. It has been overbroadly interpreted - for example, with respect to drug laws - but you're picking and choosing the parts of the Constitution that you like.

And tell me all knowing one, what part of the constitution am I "picking and choosing" as you put it?

On another note, I am quite happy that you brought up the commerce clause, as I am going to refute that argument now, here is the commerce clause:


"[t]o regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian tribes."

Interpretation is one thing, but complete manipulation is another; beyond this clause (which gives the health care bill no justification), you cannot name one provision that gives the Congress the right to do what they do. Again, I am eager to know how I am "picking and choosing" any provisions that are not within the bounds of this case. The commerce clause is irrelevant and the thought that you can stretch such a clause to justify health care is absurd.


The Supreme Court construes the commerce power broadly. In the most recent Commerce Clause case, Gonzales v. Raich (2005) , the court ruled that Congress can even regulate the cultivation of marijuana for personal use so long as there is a rational basis to believe that such "activities, taken in the aggregate, substantially affect interstate commerce."

But there are important limits. In United States v. Lopez (1995), for example, the Court invalidated the Gun Free School Zones Act because that law made it a crime simply to possess a gun near a school. It did not "regulate any economic activity and did not contain any requirement that the possession of a gun have any connection to past interstate activity or a predictable impact on future commercial activity." Of course, a health-care mandate would not regulate any "activity," such as employment or growing pot in the bathroom, at all. Simply being an American would trigger it.

Health-care backers understand this and—like Lewis Carroll's Red Queen insisting that some hills are valleys—have framed the mandate as a "tax" rather than a regulation. Under Sen. Max Baucus's (D., Mont.) most recent plan, people who do not maintain health insurance for themselves and their families would be forced to pay an "excise tax" of up to $1,500 per year—roughly comparable to the cost of insurance coverage under the new plan.

But Congress cannot so simply avoid the constitutional limits on its power. Taxation can favor one industry or course of action over another, but a "tax" that falls exclusively on anyone who is uninsured is a penalty beyond Congress's authority. If the rule were otherwise, Congress could evade all constitutional limits by "taxing" anyone who doesn't follow an order of any kind—whether to obtain health-care insurance, or to join a health club, or exercise regularly, or even eat your vegetables.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204518504574416623109362480.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Wall Street Journal

Messrs. Rivkin and Casey, Washington D.C.-based attorneys, served in the Department of Justice during the Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush administrations.



Advocates of the individual mandate, like Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) and law professor Erwin Chemerinsky, have claimed that the Supreme Court's "Commerce Clause" jurisprudence leaves "no doubt" that the insurance requirement is a constitutional exercise of that power.[10] They are wrong.

The Commerce Clause, set forth in Article I, section 8, grants Congress the authority "[t]o regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian tribes."[11] From the Founding, both Congress and the Supreme Court have struggled to define the limits of that authority, but it has always been understood that some limit exists beyond which Congress may not go. To be sure, the Supreme Court has been deferential to congressional claims of authority to regulate commerce since 1937. Yet, even as it allowed Congress to exercise expansive powers over the national economy, the New Deal Supreme Court declared that:

The authority of the federal government may not be pushed to such an extreme as to destroy the distinction, which the commerce clause itself establishes, between commerce "among the several States" and the internal concerns of a State. That distinction between what is national and what is local in the activities of commerce is vital to the maintenance of our federal system.[12]

As the Congressional Research Service has recognized, the individual mandate could face a variety of constitutional obstacles, especially under the Commerce Clause:

Despite the breadth of powers that have been exercised under the Commerce Clause, it is unclear whether the clause would provide a solid constitutional foundation for legislation containing a requirement to have health insurance. Whether such a requirement would be constitutional under the Commerce Clause is perhaps the most challenging question posed by such a proposal, as it is a novel issue whether Congress may use this clause to require an individual to purchase a good or a service.[13]

Another word for "novel" is unprecedented, which is literally true: There is simply no legislative or judicial precedent for this claim of congressional power. In the absence of binding judicial precedent, however, the current Supreme Court is unlikely to stretch the commerce power even further than it already has.

...A long line of Supreme Court cases establishes that Congress may regulate three categories of activity pursuant to the commerce power. These categories were first summarized in Perez v. United States, [14] and most recently reaffirmed in Gonzales v. Raich.[15] First, Congress may regulate the "channels of interstate or foreign commerce" such as the regulation of steamship, railroad, highway, or aircraft transportation or prevent them from being misused, as, for example, the shipment of stolen goods or of persons who have been kidnapped. Second, the commerce power extends to protecting "the instrumentalities of interstate commerce," as, for example, the destruction of an aircraft, or persons or things in commerce, as, for example, thefts from interstate shipments."[16] Third, Congress may regulate economic activities that "substantially affect interstate commerce."[17]

Under the first prong of its Commerce Clause analysis, the Court asks whether the class of activities regulated by the statute falls within one or more of these categories. Since an individual health insurance mandate is not even arguably a regulation of a channel or instrumentality of interstate commerce, it must either fit in the third category or none at all. Predictably, Congress has cited only this third basis. The Senate bill asserts (erroneously) that: "[t]he individual responsibility requirement...is commercial and economic in nature, and substantially affects interstate commerce.... The requirement regulates activity that is commercial and economic in nature: economic and financial decisions about how and when health care is paid for, and when health insurance is purchased."
http://www.heritage.org/research/legalissues/lm0049.cfm

Heritage Foundation


Yes... and? Jefferson's contention that a central bank is unnecessary and therefore unauthorized by the Constitution is no longer true. All of the rest of his argument thus falls apart.

No longer true? Tell me, by what basis do you justify this statement? Simply because we have had a precedent of unconstitutional provisions means it does not still make it unconstitutional? Despite what your AP US government teacher may have told you, or whomever, for that matter, that fundamental premise or line of reasoning is not only fallacious, but ultimately, incorrect.

If we have had a series of provisions after the Patriot Act (an unconstitutional act), that builds upon such an act over several years, does it make the usurpation of such laws any less unconstitutional? The central bank, according to the US constitution, is still unconstitutional. The rule of law must prevail, not just for the citizens, but also for the federal government; if such things as a health care bill are deemed truly needed and wanted by the country and its citizenry, the Congress or States should go through the proper channels, be it through state ratification or Congressional amendment, to do so, as it was intended to be.

[CaptainObvious]

My point was not about taxes, it was about the health care bill being unconstitutional; I consider such taxes to be theft, so it was an unnecessary line, to be sure, however, that was not the basis of the argument, as my post would show. You are no arbiter on this subject, and certainly in no position to tell me to "live with" anything, so please refrain from telling me what I have to do or must believe.

I am no arbiter, but as a matter of fact I can tell you to "live with" it, since your alternative is jail or another country in which to live. I'm sorry that you find that unfair, but it is the situation. As for you considering such taxes to be theft, that's fascinating; some people might consider the sky to be green but that does not make it the case. In your case, the 16th Amendment renders your opinion incorrect. You might not like the Amendment, but it's in there.

And tell me all knowing one, what part of the constitution am I "picking and choosing" as you put it?

The 16th Amendment, for example, with your contentions above.

On another note, I am quite happy that you brought up the commerce clause, as I am going to refute that argument now, here is the commerce clause:

The heritage foundation article alludes to the reasoning in its last paragraph. Medical care has become interstate in its economic nature; it thus falls under the federal government's purview. That the Heritage Foundation considers this view "erroneous" strikes me as erroneous itself.

No longer true? Tell me, by what basis do you justify this statement? Simply because we have had a precedent of unconstitutional provisions means it does not still make it unconstitutional? Despite what your AP US government teacher may have told you, or whomever, for that matter, that fundamental premise or line of reasoning is not only fallacious, but ultimately, incorrect.

The condescension would be less pathetic if you hadn't completely misunderstood my point. I contend that a central bank is centrally necessary to the execution of Congress's enumerated powers of taxation, among others, and that it is therefore constitutionally justified, even under a strictly constructionist approach to constitutionality.

If we have had a series of provisions after the Patriot Act (an unconstitutional act), that builds upon such an act over several years, does it make the usurpation of such laws any less unconstitutional? The central bank, according to the US constitution, is still unconstitutional.

No, an unconstitutional law built upon is still unconstitutional. But my contention is that the central bank is not, in the first place, unconstitutional.

[Tiberius]

The heritage foundation article alludes to the reasoning in its last paragraph. Medical care has become interstate in its economic nature; it thus falls under the federal government's purview. That the Heritage Foundation considers this view "erroneous" strikes me as erroneous itself.
Mhmmm...and if you where an American and not a Canadian, you might actually know something about health insurance and how it varies from state to state. Take New York for example, it is one of the few states in the country to not have a "catastrophe" health care plan since it's illegal. In New York, you cannot purchase a plan that is from another state and this is the case in many states. I just love foreigners giving us lessons on the U.S Constitution... Your argument just suffocated in it's own shit.

[CaptainObvious]

Mhmmm...and if you where an American and not a Canadian, you might actually know something about health insurance and how it varies from state to state. Take New York for example, it is one of the few states in the country to not have a "catastrophe" health care plan since it's illegal. In New York, you cannot purchase a plan that is from another state and this is the case in many states. I just love foreigners giving us lessons on the U.S Constitution... Your argument just suffocated in it's own shit.

The fact that healthcare varies by state - a fact of which I am well aware since if you pay attention (obviously you don't) I spend most of my time in New Jersey - is in no way incompatible with what I said.

I wouldn't have to give you constitutional lessons if you all understood it a little better.

[Tiberius]

The fact that healthcare varies by state - a fact of which I am well aware since if you pay attention (obviously you don't) I spend most of my time in New Jersey - is in no way incompatible with what I said.

I wouldn't have to give you constitutional lessons if you all understood it a little better.
Obviously you didn't pay attention to what I said.
In New York, you cannot purchase a plan that is from another state and this is the case in many states.
Hmmm...interstate commerce with health insurance is kinda dead in the water there.

I understand my Constitution a lot better than you do or ever will, so please, shut you mouth on that one before you offend me further :)

[CaptainObvious]

Obviously you didn't pay attention to what I said.

Hmmm...interstate commerce with health insurance is kinda dead in the water there.

Unsurprisingly, you are apparently incapable of understanding my point. Among other things, Medicare and Medicaid entitlements make people's health status directly impact interstate economic matters, and thus fall under the purview of the Commerce Clause.

I understand my Constitution a lot better than you do or ever will, so please, shut you mouth on that one before you offend me further :)

No you don't, and no I will not shut my mouth.

I am quaking with fear at the thought of offending you.

[Tiberius]

How is the fact that there is not interstate commerce with health insurance not getting through your brain? How many ways would you like me to present it to you?

Now let's say that you finally grasp the concept. Since health insurance isn't interstate then it doesn't fall under the Commerce Clause- ergo, it's a State matter and not a federal one. If a state wants to have universal health care in their own state, it's their matter and not a national one.

[CaptainObvious]

How is the fact that there is not interstate commerce with health insurance not getting through your brain?

Because it is untrue that people's health status does not impact interstate commerce. Health insurance may be sold state by state, but that is only one facet of the economic effects of healthcare.

[Raptor22]

Because it is untrue that people's health status does not impact interstate commerce. Health insurance may be sold state by state, but that is only one facet of the economic effects of healthcare.

So elaborate. What is?

[Antares]

I just love foreigners giving us lessons on the U.S Constitution

Yea, because they seem to know more about it than the Americans do.

To that quartermaster guy, the elastic clause allows congress to levy taxes for stuff that is necessary and proper, yaddy yaddy ya. You need to brush up.

[Tiberius]

"[The Congress shall have power] To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian tribes;"
Now the definition of commerce "The buying and selling of goods, especially on a large scale, as between cities or nations."
If people aren't buying health insurance from other states then it's not commerce. Sorry.

[quartermaster]

I am no arbiter, but as a matter of fact I can tell you to "live with" it, since your alternative is jail or another country in which to live.

So you admit that there are other options (there are even more than the two presented), which would still give you little basis to tell me to "live" with anything. The crux of my issue is that you see fit to talk down to me in such a manner, as if I am some child who does not understand why I think the way I do, or understand certain implications.


I'm sorry that you find that unfair, but it is the situation. As for you considering such taxes to be theft, that's fascinating; some people might consider the sky to be green but that does not make it the case. In your case, the 16th Amendment renders your opinion incorrect.

And tell me, how does, or can, a rule of law render an opinion incorrect? I could argue, quite well, that such a tax is theft of a person's fruit of labor, goods and services, or what have you and such an argument has been made quite effectively within anarco-capitalist circles with economists such as Murray Rothbard's.

Furthermore, my quarrel with such taxes is not that they are "unfair," as the government's job is not to make sure everything is "fair," its job is, however, to ensure fair treatment for all citizens in its associations. Beyond that, I do not believe it to be "unfair," as much as it is, ultimately, unjust; as long as something remains compulsory and coercive, withstanding that it does not stem as a reaction to another coercive action, it cannot be just.

My fundamental premise can be stated briefly: giving away someone else's money, without their consent, is not charity, it is theft, and taking that money through violent means (meaning, if you refuse to pay your taxes, they will threaten you at the point of a gun, if deemed necessary) is coercion. Furthermore, I assert that the redistribution of wealth, in any case, is theft, not charity; and thus is neither right nor properly justifiable. I acknowledge that taxes are necessary, insofar as we have a state, and as such, such theft must be limited as much as possible within the bounds of the constitution, because as citizens and lawmakers, we must understand that when we raise taxes on another group, we are taking other's money and capital.

Nonetheless, this is irrelevant and has nothing to do with our topic, but I could not let your misunderstandings of my view continue to prevail.


The 16th Amendment, for example, with your contentions above.


Non sequitur, the 16th amendment is irrelevant to the issue of health care legislation being within the power of the federal government. I acknowledge the federal government's power to tax (I should have made this clear in the beginning), you read into my meanings of "theft" or "stealing" more than intended (that is, given the purpose of this discussion), and not so much into my point of the health care bill's unconstitutionality; they are given the power to tax, but not the power to create a health care system.

Admittedly, if the health care bill was constitutional, the ability to tax for such a bill is well within congress' right, however, since the health care bill is unconstitutional, they do not even have the constitutional powers to use such a tax:


[J]ust because Congress may use its powers of taxation in these ways does not mean that anything it decides to call a "tax" is constitutional...

...It is likely that the Supreme Court will find this effort to avoid political and fiscal accountability a pretextual assertion of Congress's taxation powers and therefore, unconstitutional.

The Supreme Court has invalidated congressional action on the ground that such action employed unconstitutional means to an end that Congress could have constitutionally accomplished in another manner. For example, in the 1997 case of Printz v United States,[40] the Court struck down a provision of the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act requiring that local county sheriffs conduct instant background checks on gun purchasers. Although Congress had the power to provide and pay for its own enforcement mechanism, the Court thought that "[t]he power of the Federal Government would be augmented immeasurably if it were able to impress into its service--and at no cost to itself--the police officers of the 50 States."[41] In Printz, the Court rejected what it referred to as "the last, best hope of those who defend ultra vires congressional action, the Necessary and Proper Clause." It concluded that, "[w]hen a 'La[w]...for carrying into Execution' the Commerce Clause violates the principle of state sovereignty, it is not a 'La[w]...proper for carrying into Execution the Commerce Clause,' and is thus, in the words of The Federalist, 'merely [an] ac[t] of usurpation' which 'deserve[s] to be treated as such.' The Federalist No. 33, at 204 (A. Hamilton)."[42]

Heritage Foundation

As such, the 16th amendment is not only irrelevant to our discussion, but the Supreme Court has deemed the power or means to do an action is an inadequate justification in which to enact a separate, albeit conjoining, legislation. That said, to prevent further confusion, I will refrain from speaking of taxes.


The heritage foundation article alludes to the reasoning in its last paragraph. Medical care has become interstate in its economic nature; it thus falls under the federal government's purview. That the Heritage Foundation considers this view "erroneous" strikes me as erroneous itself.

That is an unprecedented and unsubstantiated manipulation of the Commerce Clause, given the current legislation and socialized healthcare.

In regards to the current bill:


The second prong of the Court's Commerce Clause analysis requires a determination that the petitioner has in fact engaged in the regulated activity, making him or her a member of the regulated class. In its modern Commerce Clause cases, the Supreme Court rejects the argument that a petitioner's own conduct or participation in the activity is, by itself, either too local or too trivial to have a substantial effect on interstate commerce. Rather, the Court has made clear that, "where the class of activities is regulated and that class is within the reach of federal power, the courts have no powers 'to excise, as trivial, individual instances' of the class."[19] Thus, for example, a potential challenger of the proposed mandate could not argue that because her own decision not to purchase the required insurance would have little or no effect on the broader market, the regulation could not be constitutionally applied to her. The Court will consider the effect of the relevant "class of activity," not that of any individual member of the class.

To assess the constitutionality of a claim of power under the Commerce Clause, the primary question becomes, "what class of activity is Congress seeking to regulate?" Only when this question is answered can the Court assess whether that class of activity substantially affects interstate commerce. Significantly, the mandate imposed by the pending bills does not regulate or prohibit the economic activity of providing or administering health insurance. Nor does it regulate or prohibit the economic activity of providing health care, whether by doctors, hospitals, pharmaceutical companies, or other entities engaged in the business of providing a medical good or service. Indeed, the health care mandate does not purport to regulate or prohibit activity of any kind, whether economic or noneconomic. To the contrary, it purports to "regulate" inactivity.

Proponents of the individual mandate are contending that, under its power to "regulate commerce...among the several states," Congress may regulate the doing of nothing at all! In other words, the statute purports to convert inactivity into a class of activity. By its own plain terms, the individual mandate provision regulates the absence of action. To uphold this power under its existing doctrine, the Court must conclude that an individual's failure to enter into a contract for health insurance is an activity that is "economic" in nature-- that is, it is part of a "class of activity" that "substantially affects interstate commerce."

Never in this nation's history has the commerce power been used to require a person who does nothing to engage in economic activity. Therefore, no decision of the Supreme Court has ever upheld such a claim of power. Such a regulation of a "class of inactivity" is of a wholly different kind than any at issue in the Court's most expansive interpretations of the Commerce Clause. A mandate to enter into a contract with an insurance company would be the first use of the Commerce Clause to universally mandate an activity by all citizens of the United States.

Today, even voting is not constitutionally mandated. But, if this precedent is established, Congress would have the unlimited power to regulate, prohibit, or mandate any or all activities in the United States. Such a doctrine would abolish any limit on federal power and alter the fundamental relationship of the national government to the states and the people. For this reason it is highly doubtful that the Supreme Court will uphold this assertion of power.

Heritage Foundation

Reiterating a point previously stated, for the purpose of universal health care:


Lastly, proponents might argue that national health insurance is part of Congress power “to regulate commerce…among the several states.” While progressives have often used this clause to expand the federal government, it does not apply especially to the creation of a national health insurance, because to create and engage in commerce is not the same thing as regulating commerce among the several states.

Heritage Foundation


The condescension would be less pathetic if you had not completely misunderstood my point.

Condescending, yes, I am, admittedly; as a firm believer in the principle of reciprocity, I am quite simply returning the favor, it would be “imprudent” for me not to. I do not like being talked down to like some child, anymore than you do, vis-à-vis, trying to lecture me in what I must accept as truths. As if, I do not have the reasoning skills to understand the implications of my own views and arguments.


I contend that a central bank is centrally necessary to the execution of Congress's enumerated powers of taxation, among others, and that it is therefore constitutionally justified, even under a strictly constructionist approach to constitutionality.

And I quote: "some people might consider the sky to be green but that does not make it the case."

It would be applicable under a strict constructionist view, if it is, indeed, necessary, which is debatable; given the track record of our central bank, I could argue that it has been and can only be, adversarial for our nation (Ludwig von Mises, F.A. Hayek, Murray Rothbard, Joseph Schumpeter and many other Austrian school economics would agree and have the detailed writing to back it up). Ergo, neither necessary nor sufficient for our nation's survival and well-being, but is, in fact, dangerous to the freedoms and prosperity of the American people.

Despite this, the Jefferson argument for necessary and proper was not to be in regards to the central bank, for my purposes, but is the very same argument against health care legislation.


No, an unconstitutional law built upon is still unconstitutional. But my contention is that the central bank is not, in the first place, unconstitutional.

Good, then surly you can see that you cannot find an ounce of justification, constitutionally, for the existence of a government controlled health care system. In order to justify such a bill or provision you would have to disregard the constitution, or interpret provisions to meet your own ends in any field, which in all effect, is the same as disregarding that document. Even a series of precedents can be wrong, and as such, I only confer to such precedents, as those are the basis’ for which many of the unconstitutional provisions of the progressives and neoconservatives are based off.

Regulating people because of their very existence, not action, is unconstitutional while at once tyrannous, and creating universal health care is not regulating interstate commerce, but engaging in it.

[CaptainObvious]

"[The Congress shall have power] To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian tribes;"
Now the definition of commerce "The buying and selling of goods, especially on a large scale, as between cities or nations."
If people aren't buying health insurance from other states then it's not commerce. Sorry.

This is becoming circular. I already pointed out to you that Medicare entitlements mean that the ease or difficulty and cost to citizens of individual states of obtaining insurance, and the quality of care provided by that insurance, directly affects interstate economics. What the dictionary calls "commerce" is irrelevant as demonstrated by the long history of jurisprudence on this subject, though if you'd like to go argue at the Supreme Court with a dictionary I wish you the best of luck.

[quartermaster]

Y
To that quartermaster guy, the elastic clause allows congress to levy taxes for stuff that is necessary and proper, yaddy yaddy ya. You need to brush up.

Yes, don't address that "quartermaster guy" directly, but simply talk to him as if he is not an active participant in this thread. Also, I'm sure it is convenient for you to get bold and rebuttal after someone else has spoken.

Despite that, your comment is meaningless, you did not bring up any new information that hasn't already been addressed, or at the very least, information that is actually useful in a debate. The elastic clause has been addressed, I think it is you who needs to "brush up." Until you actually take the time to give a meaningful post, you will remain as something of a void in this thread; too lazy or too brainwashed to actually do research yourself. Whatever the case is, I will not waste time in correcting your errors, until you are ready to adequately address my points, as atleast Captain Obvious has done.

[Antares]

Yes, don't address that "quartermaster guy" directly, but simply talk to him as if he is not an active participant in this thread. Also, I'm sure it is convenient for you to get bold and rebuttal after someone else has spoken.

Despite that, your comment is meaningless, you did not bring up any new information that hasn't already been addressed, or at the very least, information that is actually useful in a debate. The elastic clause has been addressed, I think it is you who needs to "brush up." Until you actually take the time to give a meaningful post, you will remain as something of a void in this thread; too lazy or too brainwashed to actually do research yourself. Whatever the case is, I will not waste time in correcting your errors, until you are ready to adequately address my points, as atleast Captain Obvious has done.

Only reason I said "that quartermaster guy" is because I didn't feel like directly quoting, and I wasn't sure if it was your whole username, and finally I don't know your whole name.
Replying after someone else replied doesn't matter because this is a thread that many people respond to at different times and I don't feel like posting here most of the time because it takes so much energy. So you can shoot that down.

At the moment, I honestly don't feel like reading through your enormously long posts and dissecting your points and rebutting them. Maybe part of your debating strategy but it is a bit annoying to have to read such long posts.
All I know is that from what I have read so far I don't agree with you and you interpret the Constitution very strictly and I don't because the it was written 200 years ago and some things that are in it, aren't easily applied to today's society.

[Severus Snape]

yes i know what u r talking about that some people believe that 9/11 was an inside job..but what about all the other terror scares..like the london subway bombing ur saying that london maybe knew about that or the Christmas day event to..

Don't believe everything you hear on Discovery Channel.

[Kelsie]

omg you people have no clue how bad obama is. he is trying to weaken the country so the government can take over completely. obama is a dictator.
you guys know about the healthcare bill that obama and the democrats are trying to get passed? yeah if that bill is passed, more people are going to die. one of the many ways the government is trying to control us and take our freedom away. so if you needed surgery, you wouldn't be able to get it till 6 months later. Canada has universal health care and the people who live in Canada always come down to the US so they can actually get surgery. gods we can't even afford universal health care. obama is taking money from my generation and my future kid's generation. when i'm older, i have to suffer and pay back what he has spent. all obama does is spend spend spend. money we don't have! he has not done one good thing for this country, only made it worse so it'll be become bankrupted and so the government can just take over and control our lives.
another thing is that obama promised 8 times that any bill that was to be passed, he would talk in detail to the public about and be viewable to the public. well he hasn't told us jack about what's really going on with the healthcare bill. he's doing everything behind closed doors. he won't even let the republicans read it. obama is the biggest lier.
also obama and the democrats want drafting back. drafting means that when you turn 18 you HAVE to go into the army for at least 2 years. and now woman can get drafted too so if this bill get's passed then I would have to go into the army when i turn 18.
these are just some of the many things that shows how corrupt obama and the senators are.

more and more people are waking up to what is really going on and it's scaring the senators. the senators need 60 votes to pass the healthcare bill. they did have 16 until ted kenny died. now they have 59. now scott brown is running for senator. scott borwn is good cuz he's a rebulican so he won't vote for the healthcare bill. he's running against martha coakley who is a democrat. so far brown is winning, thank god. if coakley wins then the healthcare bill is going to be passed and the US is screwed.
everyone needs to hurry and wake up before it's too late.

i HATE obama with a passion because he is trying to destroy my life and everyone else's. the government is not for the people anymore. the government is for THEMSELVES. i always hated bush but now i kinda miss him.

I could rant more about things that obama and the senators are doing but i'm tired of typing. so if anyone wants to hear the truth about obama watch 22 news and glenn beck. glenn is kinda annoying but he's smart and he knows what he's talking about.

EDIT: another thing. if scott gets elected, the obama admin. and democrats said they would delay scott's seating as a Massachusetts Senator because they want to pass the healthcare bill. Mass. has a temporary senator taking Ted Kennedy's place for the time being and he will vote Yes on the healthcare bill, but if Scott Brown gets elected then they won't get the 60 votes because scott is against the bill.

[Perseus]

omg you people have no clue how bad obama is. he is trying to weaken the country so the government can take over completely. obama is a dictator.
you guys know about the healthcare bill that obama and the democrats are trying to get passed? yeah if that bill is passed, more people are going to die. one of the many ways the government is trying to control us and take our freedom away. so if you needed surgery, you wouldn't be able to get it till 6 months later. Canada has universal health care and the people who live in Canada always come down to the US so they can actually get surgery. gods we can't even afford universal health care. obama is taking money from my generation and my future kid's generation. when i'm older, i have to suffer and pay back what he has spent. all obama does is spend spend spend. money we don't have! he has not done one good thing for this country, only made it worse so it'll be become bankrupted and so the government can just take over and control our lives.
another thing is that obama promised 8 times that any bill that was to be passed, he would talk in detail to the public about and be viewable to the public. well he hasn't told us jack about what's really going on with the healthcare bill. he's doing everything behind closed doors. he won't even let the republicans read it. obama is the biggest lier.
also obama and the democrats want drafting back. drafting means that when you turn 18 you HAVE to go into the army for at least 2 years. and now woman can get drafted too so if this bill get's passed then I would have to go into the army when i turn 18.
these are just some of the many things that shows how corrupt obama and the senators are.

more and more people are waking up to what is really going on and it's scaring the senators. the senators need 60 votes to pass the healthcare bill. they did have 16 until ted kenny died. now they have 59. now scott brown is running for senator. scott borwn is good cuz he's a rebulican so he won't vote for the healthcare bill. he's running against martha coakley who is a democrat. so far brown is winning, thank god. if coakley wins then the healthcare bill is going to be passed and the US is screwed.
everyone needs to hurry and wake up before it's too late.

i HATE obama with a passion because he is trying to destroy my life and everyone else's. the government is not for the people anymore. the government is for THEMSELVES. i always hated bush but now i kinda miss him.

I could rant more about things that obama and the senators are doing but i'm tired of typing. so if anyone wants to hear the truth about obama watch 22 news and glenn beck. glenn is kinda annoying but he's smart and he knows what he's talking about.

Where did you read about this drafting thing?

And Glenn Beck is just a retard. Him, Rush Limbaugh, and Shaun Hannedy need to shut up and lose their ridiculous right wing values, and stop making things up. You, my friend, are confused about many things about Obama. Now, I'm not saying I like him, but you need to read more about things, instead of listening to Glenn Beck and his rambles on his t.v. show and his talk show radio show. And Canadians don't come here for healthcare.

[The Joker]

omg you people have no clue how bad obama is. he is trying to weaken the country so the government can take over completely. obama is a dictator.
you guys know about the healthcare bill that obama and the democrats are trying to get passed? yeah if that bill is passed, more people are going to die. one of the many ways the government is trying to control us and take our freedom away. so if you needed surgery, you wouldn't be able to get it till 6 months later. Canada has universal health care and the people who live in Canada always come down to the US so they can actually get surgery. gods we can't even afford universal health care. obama is taking money from my generation and my future kid's generation. when i'm older, i have to suffer and pay back what he has spent. all obama does is spend spend spend. money we don't have! he has not done one good thing for this country, only made it worse so it'll be become bankrupted and so the government can just take over and control our lives.
another thing is that obama promised 8 times that any bill that was to be passed, he would talk in detail to the public about and be viewable to the public. well he hasn't told us jack about what's really going on with the healthcare bill. he's doing everything behind closed doors. he won't even let the republicans read it. obama is the biggest lier.
also obama and the democrats want drafting back. drafting means that when you turn 18 you HAVE to go into the army for at least 2 years. and now woman can get drafted too so if this bill get's passed then I would have to go into the army when i turn 18.
these are just some of the many things that shows how corrupt obama and the senators are.

more and more people are waking up to what is really going on and it's scaring the senators. the senators need 60 votes to pass the healthcare bill. they did have 16 until ted kenny died. now they have 59. now scott brown is running for senator. scott borwn is good cuz he's a rebulican so he won't vote for the healthcare bill. he's running against martha coakley who is a democrat. so far brown is winning, thank god. if coakley wins then the healthcare bill is going to be passed and the US is screwed.
everyone needs to hurry and wake up before it's too late.

i HATE obama with a passion because he is trying to destroy my life and everyone else's. the government is not for the people anymore. the government is for THEMSELVES. i always hated bush but now i kinda miss him.

I could rant more about things that obama and the senators are doing but i'm tired of typing. so if anyone wants to hear the truth about obama watch 22 news and glenn beck. glenn is kinda annoying but he's smart and he knows what he's talking about.

The thing about the health care is BS.

Who told you that? Fellow Americans?

I'm Canadian. I don't understand how treating everybody with the same health care causes them to die.

In America, you have to pay a lot for your health care. So really, the poor and lower middle class people have a higher chance of dying than anybody here in Canada.

Please don't talk about Canada unless somebody from Canada tells you it's true.

[Kelsie]

The thing about the health care is BS.

Who told you that? Fellow Americans?

I'm Canadian. I don't understand how treating everybody with the same health care causes them to die.

In America, you have to pay a lot for your health care. So really, the poor and lower middle class people have a higher chance of dying than anybody here in Canada.

Please don't talk about Canada unless somebody from Canada tells you it's true.



excuse me but I saw on national news actual Canadian people that spoke about Universal healthcare and how it is not good and the Canadian's come to the U.S. for better care and more affordable care. The reason why we shouldn't have the univeral health care is because it is "government-controlled". I do believe there should be some kind of reform of healthcare,but the answer is not "government-control healthcare"

[ThatDude93]

I disagree with the man's policies. I believe he is taking America down a wrong path.

[Kelsie]

Where did you read about this drafting thing?

And Glenn Beck is just a retard. Him, Rush Limbaugh, and Shaun Hannedy need to shut up and lose their ridiculous right wing values, and stop making things up. You, my friend, are confused about many things about Obama. Now, I'm not saying I like him, but you need to read more about things, instead of listening to Glenn Beck and his rambles on his t.v. show and his talk show radio show. And Canadians don't come here for healthcare.

I read a lot about the differences and can see the truth behind a lot. Here is a fact for you to know - The New York Times (which is very far left democrat) has recently stated in their newspapers that they back up and believe Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity (which you didn't spell right, to show that you don't know who you are talking about).

The Obama Administration is trying to abolish the US Constitution and freedom of speech and he uses bribery and threats to get his way. This is not right. And before you ask where I heard this - well it is all over the news on left-wing tv stations and right wing. On the radio and newspapers.

Also, just out on the news and people in public that are speaking is that the Democrats want to re-instate the "draft" process.

[Perseus]

I read a lot about the differences and can see the truth behind a lot. Here is a fact for you to know - The New York Times (which is very far left democrat) has recently stated in their newspapers that they back up and believe Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity (which you didn't spell right, to show that you don't know who you are talking about).

The Obama Administration is trying to abolish the US Constitution and freedom of speech and he uses bribery and threats to get his way. This is not right. And before you ask where I heard this - well it is all over the news on left-wing tv stations and right wing. On the radio and newspapers.

Also, just out on the news and people in public that are speaking is that the Democrats want to re-instate the "draft" process.

I do know who I'm talking about becuase my mom listens to him all the time on the raido. Big deal, I mispelled his name, I don't care because Sean is spelt many different ways, and Hannity sounds like Hannedy. I didn't know about the draft thing because I don't watch left winged news, and I don't really watch the news, anyway.

[Kelsie]

I do know who I'm talking about becuase my mom listens to him all the time on the raido. Big deal, I mispelled his name, I don't care because Sean is spelt many different ways, and Hannity sounds like Hannedy. I didn't know about the draft thing because I don't watch left winged news, and I don't really watch the news, anyway.

you should watch the news. but you don't have to. it doesn't matter to me if you do or not.
i'm getting the hell out of the US once i'm old enough.

[Antares]

Yes, please get out of the country so one less very misinformed confused person will not reside here in our country.

You are misinformed. I would like to know what news channel you watch...

[The Joker]

excuse me but I saw on national news actual Canadian people that spoke about Universal healthcare and how it is not good and the Canadian's come to the U.S. for better care and more affordable care. The reason why we shouldn't have the univeral health care is because it is "government-controlled". I do believe there should be some kind of reform of healthcare,but the answer is not "government-control healthcare"

What news channel did you watch?

Was it a real news channel, or a biased one like CNN or Fox?

[CaptainObvious]

excuse me but I saw on national news actual Canadian people that spoke about Universal healthcare and how it is not good and the Canadian's come to the U.S. for better care and more affordable care.

What, we're not real Canadian people? The health care I get in Canada is cheaper than that in the States, for damn sure. I've got a few hundred dollars worth of bills for medically necessary diagnostic work on my desk right now, as a matter of fact, and that sure as hell would never happen in Canada.

I read a lot about the differences and can see the truth behind a lot. Here is a fact for you to know - The New York Times (which is very far left democrat) has recently stated in their newspapers that they back up and believe Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity (which you didn't spell right, to show that you don't know who you are talking about).

Link to the article, please.

The Obama Administration is trying to abolish the US Constitution and freedom of speech and he uses bribery and threats to get his way. This is not right. And before you ask where I heard this - well it is all over the news on left-wing tv stations and right wing. On the radio and newspapers.

That's just a bit daft. He's trying to abolish the Constitution? Please substantiate that claim. What specifically has Obama done to infringe upon freedom of speech? As before, if it's "all over the news", link us to articles substantiating Obama's intention to abolish the Constitution and free speech via bribery and threats.

What news channel did you watch?

Was it a real news channel, or a biased one like CNN or Fox?

lolwut? CNN's probably the best of the current slate of major US news channels.

[Antares]

I agree.
CNN is probably the least biased network news on air.
MSNBC is left and Fox is out of the ballpark right.

[Perseus]

CNN is probably the least biased network news on air.

I said that once, and my mom and sister laughed at me and said it's just as biased as Fox, and I'm just like, "what"?
That's the only place I look to for my news.
And MSNBC sicne msn is my homepage.

[The Joker]

Sorry, I don't watch those news channels. I couldn't remember which channel was the biased left wing channel.

I meant MSNBC.

They don't come on over here, or at least I don't get their channels.

[BUENA]

I think Obama is a good president. I hope he brings the U.S. to a new age and a new beginning.

[Mental]

To Kelsie... I don't live in Canada now, but take this from someone that did, and I now live in a country that has a similar system to Canada. Universal Health Care/National Health Service is not anywhere near as bad as some of you Americans seem to think it is. No, you do not go to a doctor in Canada/UK bleeding to death and they just leave you there for 10 hours. No you do NOT wait on a waiting list for 10 years for a hip replacement.

I know that some people go to the United States for advanced medical operations, which the U.S. has available and not their country, although most countries have the vital lifesaving equipment, but there have been cases of poorer Americans going to Canada and the UK for healthcare, simply because they couldn't afford it in their own country. It kinda works both ways, if you ask me.

But..
..Canadian's come to the U.S. for better care and more affordable care..
I don't know whether to laugh at that or not. Affordable..? In Canada you get most of your healthcare for free (it's funded by taxpayers), in the United States you have to pay for it. Are you telling me it's somehow more expensive to get healthcare for free than pay for it? Wow..

...The reason why we shouldn't have the univeral health care is because it is "government-controlled". I do believe there should be some kind of reform of healthcare,but the answer is not "government-control healthcare...
You're absolutely right. It's bad because the Government would fund it!

I mean it's not like the Government don't fund and control the armed forces of your country, the police departments, the fire service, most of your elementary schools, most of your middle schools, most of your high schools-..

Oh wait. They do. Should the U.S. stop "controlling" them, and you can just hire a private army to defend and police your country, put out your own fires, or pay someone, and just go to private schools. I'm pretty sure your family and most others in America could afford all that.. </sarcasm>

The Obama Administration is trying to abolish the US Constitution and freedom of speech and he uses bribery and threats to get his way. This is not right. And before you ask where I heard this - well it is all over the news on left-wing tv stations and right wing. On the radio and newspapers.

Also, just out on the news and people in public that are speaking is that the Democrats want to re-instate the "draft" process.
No offence, but you sound like a sheep if you've based all your opinion on hearing this stuff on the news and TV/radio chat shows. In fact, I'm interested to know how Obama is this horrible dictator you're making him out to be. I mean I'm sure he has his faults, just like every other U.S. President and leader in the history of the world, but please tell me how he's trying to abolish the U.S. Constitution and where he uses bribary and threats to get his way.

And I don't know anything about him implementing a military draft, but he's not a dictator, so he can't do it alone obviously, if I'm not wrong, he needs Congressional support to implement military conscription. The U.S. President is not, never was and never will be a dictator. You need to learn the meaning of that word.

[Kelsie]

either way i don't believe in the health care reform. the United States cannot afford it. i kinda want Scott B. to win as the mass. senator but i also want Martha C. to win.

[Thrash Bassist]

i think that he is a legend :D !! and still people are giving him a hard time because they are racist ! he is the first black president of the USA and thats a pretty big deal.
He is a good man who only means to do good and still people think he is just gonna sit in his desk doing nothing. :D:D:D:D yes. im proud of Obama :D:D:D:D

No, it has nothing to do with his skin color. It is the fact that I don't agree with what he believes. The change he promises, won't happen.
I think it is awesome we have our first black president, but, why did it have to be Osama oops, I meant Obama.

"Meet the new boss...He's the same as the old boss" - Won't get fooled again - The Who

[Mental]

either way i don't believe in the health care reform. the United States cannot afford it. i kinda want Scott B. to win as the mass. senator but i also want Martha C. to win.
Cannot afford it? The USA? Why not?

The USA can afford to have two conflicts simultaniously in the Middle East for years, with a top dog military with loads of soldiers and top of the line weapons and aircraft costing the American economy billions of $ every week, and you're telling me the USA cannot afford to reform it's healthcare?

[Rainstorm]

Cannot afford it? The USA? Why not?


Because, The Government has used most of whatever money it has left on the War, along with other drastic reforms to help stimulate the economy. We're just sinking our heels into a deeper quicksand pile of debt

[Mental]

Because, The Government has used most of whatever money it has left on the War, along with other drastic reforms to help stimulate the economy. We're just sinking our heels into a deeper quicksand pile of debt
Well I'm not going to pretend I'm good at economics, but perhaps instead of waging wars all over the place, the money should be spent on things that actually benefit people in America. Some kind of healthcare reform would be far beneficial to Americans than any military conflict thousands of miles away from USA, even if they are trying to destroy some terrorist and all his cronies.

[Rainstorm]

Well I'm not going to pretend I'm good at economics, but perhaps instead of waging wars all over the place, the money should be spent on things that actually benefit people in America. Some kind of healthcare reform would be far beneficial to Americans than any military conflict thousands of miles away from USA, even if they are trying to destroy some terrorist and all his cronies.

Oh, I don't disagree with you there. The War's are just becoming more bills we have to pay for nothing, to be honest.

I don't agree with the way Obama and the Democrats are trying to deal with the Health Care bill, but some new form of the plan has to be passed. Screw the war, use the money on Health Care and National Security so we don't deal with another terrorist attack, thank you very much.

[Kitty Purry]

people where i live HATE obama, mostly because people here are soooooooo racist. hes ok

[Kahn]

Jesus Christ. I hate all of this speculation over President Obama.

President Obama isn't the greatest President but he isn't as bad as the ass hole that plunged us into this depression and sent us to war killing thousands of people. He is trying to renew the United States of America, not destroy it and I don't know why people can't see that.

Though his double the export idea isn't the greatest (I mean, who would want to buy the same stuff China has from here for more money) and the Health Care Reform isn't going that well but just think what would be going on if we still had a Bush in office? We would go into greater debt than we already were. We are pulling out of this recession slowly, SLOWLY, but people still criticize him like he will get the economy and the war dealt with in one year. Give him TIME. We sure as hell gave Bush time but that only plunged us into an unjust war and into a depression.

Just stop. Especially you Kelsie. You remind me of States Rights. He pissed me off to much that I went on rambling about Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler, FDR, Teddy Roosevelt. Just leave it at that. He is our President. Have faith for Christ's sake.

[ltimm]

Personnally, I think people don't give him enough credit for wht he's already done. he has had a year to turn thin country around and he's getting there. People, he's been in office for ONE YEAR! Give him some time!

[kyle56]

I think that even by the time obamas term is up, we are still not going to be out of the recession. its going to still take quite a few years for it to come back to how it was before(if it does)

As for the health care i dont think its going to work that well. many americans are to greedy and are going to take advantage of it and abuse it.

Thats my opinion. so dont quote me and say something i said was wrong

[quartermaster]

Cannot afford it? The USA? Why not?

The USA can afford to have two conflicts simultaniously in the Middle East for years, with a top dog military with loads of soldiers and top of the line weapons and aircraft costing the American economy billions of $ every week, and you're telling me the USA cannot afford to reform it's healthcare?

Actually, the US can't afford those two wars either, essentially the United States is insolvent and paying its debts with money it does not have. All that is keeping it afloat is China, Japan and other foreign nations that have bought our debt, but when that stops and the US dollar is dropped as the world reserve currency, if the US has not cut spending dramatically by then, there will be a true catastrophe. That would bring hyperinflation and a complete default on all loans outstanding.

We are already seeing signs of a "double-dip" recession (such as the one seen in 1937), home prices are not stabilizing as previously thought, unemployment hovers around 17 percent (not the 8 percent that they feed people) and government spending is at an all time high, yet has failed to even stabilize the economy (that is, of course, assuming that you can stabilize an economy by reinforcing malinvestment, which you cannot). The United States is in serious trouble if it does not deal with its debts; people are eating the lie that the US economy is recovering, but the real facts show differently.

[Thrash Bassist]

Well I'm not going to pretend I'm good at economics, but perhaps instead of waging wars all over the place, the money should be spent on things that actually benefit people in America. Some kind of healthcare reform would be far beneficial to Americans than any military conflict thousands of miles away from USA, even if they are trying to destroy some terrorist and all his cronies.

The war is beneficial to us. The terrorist won't come back and bomb us again if we kick their asses. But if we pull out, the terrorist would think we are afraid and we would probably have a another terrorist attack.

[The Batman]

The war is beneficial to us. The terrorist won't come back and bomb us again if we kick their asses. But if we pull out, the terrorist would think we are afraid and we would probably have a another terrorist attack.

The thing about that is that we aren't fighting the terrorist we're fighting other people. Al Qaeda is in Afghanistan not Iraq.

[Mental]

The war is beneficial to us. The terrorist won't come back and bomb us again if we kick their asses. But if we pull out, the terrorist would think we are afraid and we would probably have a another terrorist attack.
There have been attempted terrorist attacks on the United States since 9/11 and USA's involvement in Afghanistan/Iraq - heard of the Christmas Day Bomber? Just because US forces are in these countries doesn't mean they've magically stopped (attempting) attacking. Terrorists don't give a shit. Al Queda is not just in Afghanistan and Iraq you know, they're literally all over the world. In terms of "fighting terrorists" USA and it's allies haven't really succeeded in winning, because you can't fight an ideology.

The conflicts really aren't beneficial to U.S. Citizens. If you want security from terrorists from abroad, then your own airport and aeroplanes and borders would be the place to protect. Not putting troops thousands of miles away.

[eagles]

i think he is a goo president

[obiwan94]

I have to mostly agree with Mental...

For one, he wasnt just elected on the basis of his skin color, thats silly. McCain ran a poor campaign (primarily by choosing Palin) and the Republicans in their 8 years had started 1 pointless war, and let big businesses do whatever they wanted without oversight, which led to this collapse. Anyone would of won against the republican party.

As for his experience...inexperienced in politics, yes he is...but is this a bad thing? Fine so he doesnt know the best ways to hoodwink voters or blackmail the other side. As Mark Twain said " There is no distinctly native American criminal class except Congress". Obama is smart and that in my opinion is the most important aspect of a leader. The ability to rationally think about all options, weigh the pros and cons, consult with the top people in their fields, and I believe that Obama, unlike Bush, is doing that.

As for the two wars...you simply cant just leave and leave a mess that is worse than when you arrived, thats just criminal. He has set timetables for our withdrawal and I would like to see the administration stick to it. These wars increased the deficit under the republican party. The democrats are now trying to clean it up.

Health care...unfortunately this was completely bungled, but in my opinion, mostly by congress. The US is one of the few, it not only developed countries that doesnt have universal healthcare. Cuba supposedly has better healthcare than us, kinda embarrasing. As a country we certainly have a higher infant death mortality rate than any of our developed brethren.

Regardless, he was given a mess and I'm willing to wait the 4 years before I pass judgement. Plus I'll be able to vote in next election :D

[The Joker]

Thrash Bassist, by "kicking their asses", we are only further enraging the Muslim community and more people who have extremist views would become terrorists.

[QueRico95]

I used to like him. He is semi-repulsive now because he is a Coward for the public needs, he still is going about the healthcare situation the wrong way and he spends money on things we will never see the benefit of .

i have a blog. awakenamerican.blogspot.com

[TurboDieselBandit]

Let me just set this part straight, Obama was NOT elected because of his race so stop saying it, Obama won simply because he is extremely smart and has a great plan that has been delayed because republicans are voting against every one of his proposals and bills. Further more, if you take a look back on our history, the only presidents we have ever had have been white men. Look around in the senate and see how many white men are in there, look at the CEOs of large companies, guess what, they are all white. Is that just because they are very hard workers and all black people are just plain lazy??? Absolutly not, thats because there is still so much racism in this country. Moving on...
When a private company, whose JOB it is to provide "health care", decides to deny you coverage when you are about to die to save them money, the government must take over. We pay for insurance because the idea is everyone puts $5 into the pot and if something should happen to one person and they need $25 they can get it. Problem is the people holding the pot pull out your money to buy them selves a glamorous life and then say you cant have the money when you need it so they will have more to spend on them selves. Thats why we need reform.

If the republicans in the senate would stop trying to kill everything Obama tries to pass, then maby Obama could start doing the things he said he would do.

[xdeviancex]

I'm on the fence with him.
He was elected mostly because of his skin color and his charisma, but, whatever, it's doesn't matter any more.
He's very well educated, but I feel he lacks experience.
But I like his ideas and he makes a lot of promises, even though he doesn't follow through with some of them. In his State of the Union speech he made a lot of claims and appeals for new bills and whatnots, and most of them I favored a lot. He's very education-orientated and promotes a more eco-friendly world. He's doing a good job with attempting to expand the economy and create new jobs. Along with funding research which will hopefully bring new industries for America to lead in. It all sounds so nice, hopefully he keeps his promises and puts action to them.

[Raptor22]

I'm on the fence with him.
He was elected mostly because of his skin color and his charisma, but, whatever, it's doesn't matter any more.
He's very well educated, but I feel he lacks experience.
But I like his ideas and he makes a lot of promises, even though he doesn't follow through with some of them. In his State of the Union speech he made a lot of claims and appeals for new bills and whatnots, and most of them I favored a lot. He's very education-orientated and promotes a more eco-friendly world. He's doing a good job with attempting to expand the economy and create new jobs. Along with funding research which will hopefully bring new industries for America to lead in. It all sounds so nice, hopefully he keeps his promises and puts action to them.

I will agree, but sadly most of that is all political posturing, pandering, and in a big way: bullshit. I do believe that Obama is pursuing these agenda goals wholeheartedly, but maybe not in the best manner. ;)

[Perseus]

.
He's very well educated, but I feel he lacks experience.


No first time president has experience becuase they don't know what it's like to be president.

[TurboDieselBandit]

Even if you compare the governmental experience between McCane and Obama, sure McCane had more "experience", but experience goes out the window when its full doing the wrong things like voting for corrupt bills and proposing plans that look like solutions but really prolong the problem. An example is health care, if the problem is private health companies not doing there job and insuring, then we DON'T solve the problem by allowing people to more easily buy from them. The solution is for the government to step in.

[kyle56]

Obamas fucked over america and our economy will keep getting worse till his ass is out of office

[Peace God]

I do like the symbolism of a black man in office however, i dont trust him one bit, I think all presidents are more loyal to the people that pay money to put them in power and not enough to their own citizens. Im already starting to see him flip on a lot of his stances in a way that favors many profitable and even monopolized sectors of the economy especially the pharmaceutical industry. My current test for him is to see if he does something about the percentage of people incarcerated (especially minorities) and the current 100:1 disparity in crack cocaine vs powder cocaine sentencing, an obvious discrimination that severely affects low class black and latino communities. The position as the "leader of the world" is way too corrupt, so honestly? i wouldnt even trust my own mother in that position of power.

I dont blame him as much as others(^) for the economic situation because even the perfect leader would not have that many positive results yet. Plus im not an expert on the economy(but apparently a lot of ppl are all of a sudden,???) by any means so I honestly do not know the right direction we are supposed to go.

[Scarface]

I personally think he's going to do this country a good thing, but i hope he doesn't dick around with this war, it needs to be taken care of. I also hope he helps with all of these academic cuts and turns the school systems around they need to make it at least a tad bit interesting.

[Kahn]

I am saddened by all the responses like this.

Obamas fucked over america and our economy will keep getting worse till his ass is out of office

You are entitled to your opinion, yes. But it doesn't make your opinion right.

People blame the President for everything. They ignore the fact that he has his cabinet, Congress, The House, etc. These are all of the decision makers, not just Obama. Obama can not fix everything, nor will he. He will not bring the economy back up in the ONE year he's been in office. You need to realize Obama isn't a God and you need to be patient.

We are fighting two wars simotaniously and are economic status is not the best. He can only do so much. People are overwhelming, impatient. We need to have everything now, now, now. We can't wait.

Right now I'd rather have Obama in office than Bush.

[Jamie]

I am saddened by all the responses like this.



You are entitled to your opinion, yes. But it doesn't make your opinion right.

People blame the President for everything. They ignore the fact that he has his cabinet, Congress, The House, etc. These are all of the decision makers, not just Obama. Obama can not fix everything, nor will he. He will not bring the economy back up in the ONE year he's been in office. You need to realize Obama isn't a God and you need to be patient.

We are fighting two wars simotaniously and are economic status is not the best. He can only do so much. People are overwhelming, impatient. We need to have everything now, now, now. We can't wait.

Right now I'd rather have Obama in office than Bush.

I'd rather have Hilary in office then either of the two mentioned. Also Adam... what is 'simotaniously '? :P

[Kahn]

I'd rather have Hilary in office then either of the two mentioned. Also Adam... what is 'simotaniously '? :P

http://www.allwords.com/word-simultaneously.html

Why Hilary?

[The Batman]

I wanted Hilary Clinton too because her policies were a lot closer to mine.

[Perseus]

I am saddened by all the responses like this.



You are entitled to your opinion, yes. But it doesn't make your opinion right.

People blame the President for everything. They ignore the fact that he has his cabinet, Congress, The House, etc. These are all of the decision makers, not just Obama. Obama can not fix everything, nor will he. He will not bring the economy back up in the ONE year he's been in office. You need to realize Obama isn't a God and you need to be patient.

We are fighting two wars simotaniously and are economic status is not the best. He can only do so much. People are overwhelming, impatient. We need to have everything now, now, now. We can't wait.

Right now I'd rather have Obama in office than Bush.

Adam, I love you for not being ignant like most people. :P

People always blame this whole economic thing on the presidents, i.e. Bush and Obama.

[kyle56]

Yea people had blamed Bush for so many things, he didnt make this country go to war congress and all the other offices had to make the decision first.

Oh well if obama does good for this country then good for him i still could careless about him.

On the ither hand i do agree with u bubbles president doesnt make half the descions its congress and everything else.

[Kahn]

Yea people had blamed Bush for so many things, he didnt make this country go to war congress and all the other offices had to make the decision first.

Oh well if obama does good for this country then good for him i still could careless about him.

On the ither hand i do agree with u bubbles president doesnt make half the descions its congress and everything else.

I did not say that he doesn't make a lot of decisions because he is after all our leader. He has the ultimate choice to veto a new law, he has the right to petition for war, etc. But the President, Congress, The House, the President's Cabinet, etc. must work together in order to make the country run, but when things don't go right the President is blamed for all of this.

[PainUnreal]

Honestly, I disliked Obama. But saying anything bad about him was being a racist. One question though: did they ever find his birth certificate yet??

[Sage]

But saying anything bad about him was being a racist. One question though: did they ever find his birth certificate yet??

Aren't you missing a tea party or something?

[Peace God]

Honestly, I disliked Obama. But saying anything bad about him was being a racist.
haha i hope you're joking...dnt be afraid to say anything about your president it's our right

[Whisper]

Honestly, I disliked Obama. But saying anything bad about him was being a racist. One question though: did they ever find his birth certificate yet??

WTF you're being racist RIGHT NOW by saying that if you dislike him its racist THAT statement RIGHT THERE is extremely racists. Nobody cares if you don't like him, thats fine, hate him for his policies, his personality, his political history, etc... w/e you have EVERY RIGHT TO HATE HIS GUTS!! power to ya! But sitting there and saying well i dislike him. but saying anything bad about him is racist. THAT statement is disgusting.


Personally I think he kicks ass, I like his policies, I like how he presents his speeches, and how hes choosing to run his administration
I think he is exactly what America needs exactly when she needs it.
This is a pivotal point in your nations history
a rare improvement on an endlessly shitty situation

I think anyone who's against the BASICS of what he's trying to accomplish is akin to a religious fanatic; there's simply no reasoning with them, they will never listen.

I find it almost pitiful how everyone in the states is so quick to turn on him tho, and so easily forgets the 8yr bush doctrine that led to the state your union is in now.
I wonder if Obama would sit on his ass in a classroom while the twin towers were falling, or if he'd remain on vacation while the levees in New Orleans failed, or if he would run around in a circle like an idiot taking 5 days to get water to the super dome.


The most powerful country on the planet unable to even take care of its own
Your on the verge of a MONUMENTAL achievement and your still squabbling over his skin colour and whither hes REALLY an american, posters comparing him to Hitler all over the place, so much for a society based on logic and reason

frankly, its pathetic and disgusting

but w/e
I don't live there
nor will I ever

[Perseus]

I find it almost pitiful how everyone in the states is so quick to turn on him tho, and so easily forgets the 8yr bush doctrine that led to the state your union is in now.
I wonder if Obama would sit on his ass in a classroom while the twin towers were falling, or if he'd remain on vacation while the levees in New Orleans failed, or if he would run around in a circle like an idiot taking 5 days to get water to the super dome.




You make no sense. You act as though the president can't read children books to children and go on vacation. Obama went on vacation to Hawaii, didn't he? Sure, Bush did those things while it happened, but you can't do everything just as fast as it happens. I don't remember much because when I was yound when said things happened, I didn't watch the news and stuff, so i don't know what went down, but by your post, you're suggesting the president just has to sit in the White House and do nothing.

[Whisper]

You make no sense. You act as though the president can't read children books to children and go on vacation. Obama went on vacation to Hawaii, didn't he? Sure, Bush did those things while it happened, but you can't do everything just as fast as it happens. I don't remember much because when I was yound when said things happened, I didn't watch the news and stuff, so i don't know what went down, but by your post, you're suggesting the president just has to sit in the White House and do nothing.
No im suggesting the president of the united states does his job
this isn't McDonalds
its not a 9-5 gig
When something happens its the leaders job to be working and coordinating ASAP

Vacations are fine, reading to classrooms is a great photo op I'm all for it
But when the shit hits the fan I don't care what time it is, I don't care what day it is, and I don't care where you are, you get there and do whats expected of you. Thats why theres a mountain of support staff and a fleet of vehicles of all types to get you where you need to be.


The main reason i brought up those examples is because everyone seems to have forgotten who was in charge before, Bush was one of the worst presidents in US history

[Antares]

I do like the symbolism of a black man in office however, i dont trust him one bit, I think all presidents are more loyal to the people that pay money to put them in power and not enough to their own citizens. Im already starting to see him flip on a lot of his stances in a way that favors many profitable and even monopolized sectors of the economy especially the pharmaceutical industry. My current test for him is to see if he does something about the percentage of people incarcerated (especially minorities) and the current 100:1 disparity in crack cocaine vs powder cocaine sentencing, an obvious discrimination that severely affects low class black and latino communities. The position as the "leader of the world" is way too corrupt, so honestly? i wouldnt even trust my own mother in that position of power.

I dont blame him as much as others(^) for the economic situation because even the perfect leader would not have that many positive results yet. Plus im not an expert on the economy(but apparently a lot of ppl are all of a sudden,???) by any means so I honestly do not know the right direction we are supposed to go.

Im not sure why Obama is the one you don't trust when it seems almost every single president in the past has some reason for you not to trust them.

And, I don't think you should get your hopes up about the incarceration thing...he already has a lot on his plate and I honestly don't think he is going to get to it

Obamas fucked over america and our economy will keep getting worse till his ass is out of office

What kind of shit is this?
Do you have any grounds to back up this statement?
If that is a no, then you should really get out of here because this is not the place for you.

[Peace God]

Im not sure why Obama is the one you don't trust when it seems almost every single president in the past has some reason for you not to trust them.
:confused::confused:
i dont think i said he was the only president i didnt trust


And, I don't think you should get your hopes up about the incarceration thing...he already has a lot on his plate and I honestly don't think he is going to get to it


i agree...unfortunately

[Antares]

i dont think i said he was the only president i didnt trust

You're right, you didn't...I just got the vibe that he was one of the only presidents you don't trust, mostly because you mentioned it

[Peace God]

You're right, you didn't...I just got the vibe that he was one of the only presidents you don't trust, mostly because you mentioned it
as weird as it might sound to some ppl, i dont trust any of them
for me it has more to do with the position and not the person
but i do think obama is a lot more likable than bush

[finnguy]

I like him, he is the first president since FDR to start transforming our country in to a modern Western Social Democracy.

[Richthegamer99]

OBAMA SUCK ASS obama is try to make this nation communist he wants take away our guns he wants gverment run heath care he tax people more , this guy is taken a freken vaction while our counrty is in hell he want to have less border patrol he wants to do nothing about the us mexican border ,he said he get the troops out of iraq when he got into office but now he lied WHY DID PEOPLE VOTE HIM INTO OFFICE

[Amnesiac]

Obama is i think one of the worst perident he said that he does so much but he don't do nothing you know that clash for cunkers why ditroy the cars when you sell the parts of them or give the cars to people who need cars i think the only reson that he became perisdent is the color of his skin

Clash for Clunkers did actually recycle used car parts, and so far it's been one of the more popular and effective programs under Obama.

Race may have been a contributing factor to his election — okay, it was a factor — but the primary reason Obama won was because people were disappointed with the leadership of Republicans. Every few years the U.S. switches parties, it's become a kind of cycle.

OBAMA SUCK ASS obama is try to make this nation communist he wants take away our guns he wants gverment run heath care he tax people more , this guy is taken a freken vaction while our counrty is in hell he want to have less border patrol he wants to do nothing about the us mexican border ,he said he get the troops out of iraq when he got into office but now he lied WHY DID PEOPLE VOTE HIM INTO OFFICE

:eek: Citations?

[Hollywood]

I don't think Obama as a president is bad, or as a person. However, how he beacame president isn't good.

This may sound racist to some, but it is not. Before around 2006, very few outside of Illinois had heard a lot about Obama, however, his 2008 compitition John McCain, has been well known ever since his military days. In my opinion, the only reason Obama is president is because he is half-black. Had he been white, he would've lost by a landslide.

Now I may be wrong, but this is just my opinion, after seeing all of the support of Obama from the black community, but the miniscule support from the white community.

[taylortheinnocent]

think yer dead on about that...

[Whisper]

I don't think Obama as a president is bad, or as a person. However, how he beacame president isn't good.

This may sound racist to some, but it is not. Before around 2006, very few outside of Illinois had heard a lot about Obama, however, his 2008 compitition John McCain, has been well known ever since his military days. In my opinion, the only reason Obama is president is because he is half-black. Had he been white, he would've lost by a landslide.

Now I may be wrong, but this is just my opinion, after seeing all of the support of Obama from the black community, but the miniscule support from the white community.
I find it interesting how everyone is ignoring Obama the man, all every Republican seems to see is his skin. I mean theres noway in hell he'd have won if his skin was a lil different is there?
I find it funny how petty the Republicans are that they lost. Obama has tried time and time again to work with the Republican party in a way that hasn't been seen from EITHER side in decades. Instead the Republicans have mandated a no-tolerance policy apparently, they won't work with the Democrat's at all.

Just because you state your not being racist before you make that claim doesn't mean you aren't. It means your to scared to flat out say it.


I honestly never knew how strong racism really was in America until he won
Everyone always says its really hard being an African American and for the longest time I just thought it was bullshit, I mean its the 21st century for fuck sakes.
It never dawned on me I could be so horribly wrong. I'm so glad i'm Canadian.

Obama won because he's fresh blood in an old and decrepit system, he has allot of brilliant idea's and has made allot of great changes.

Who cares if he has strong support from the "black community" I mean aren't they American's? Or did I miss the sub-citizen memo?
Oh I know, I know. They're allowed to vote, but they're never supposed to actually DO it now are they.

Jesus dude....

EDIT
if anything
to be frank
his skin color as hurt not helped
now more than ever
your a perfect example

[Tankinx91]

Sometimes i think people forget how much power the president actually has.

[walpoler]

hate him, i am just hoping for Palin in 2012!

[Hollywood]

I find it interesting how everyone is ignoring Obama the man, all every Republican seems to see is his skin. I mean theres noway in hell he'd have won if his skin was a lil different is there?
I find it funny how petty the Republicans are that they lost. Obama has tried time and time again to work with the Republican party in a way that hasn't been seen from EITHER side in decades. Instead the Republicans have mandated a no-tolerance policy apparently, they won't work with the Democrat's at all.

Just because you state your not being racist before you make that claim doesn't mean you aren't. It means your to scared to flat out say it.


I honestly never knew how strong racism really was in America until he won
Everyone always says its really hard being an African American and for the longest time I just thought it was bullshit, I mean its the 21st century for fuck sakes.
It never dawned on me I could be so horribly wrong. I'm so glad i'm Canadian.

Obama won because he's fresh blood in an old and decrepit system, he has allot of brilliant idea's and has made allot of great changes.

Who cares if he has strong support from the "black community" I mean aren't they American's? Or did I miss the sub-citizen memo?
Oh I know, I know. They're allowed to vote, but they're never supposed to actually DO it now are they.

Jesus dude....

EDIT
if anything
to be frank
his skin color as hurt not helped
now more than ever
your a perfect example

Did I say he was a bad president? No, I admire some of the things he has done. Did I say I was ignoring him as a man? No, I think he is a great person, husband, and father, and the first president in a while that has his shit straight. Did I say African-Americans weren't people? Hell no, they have equal rights, just like anyone else, and thats a damned good thing.

Did I say anything racist? No, I didn't, but you seem to think that making a simple claim, not even about black people themselves, is racist.

You took a little statement I made and turned it into your own version of a fucked up comment. You took it way out of proportion, not mention, you aren't even from America, and although that dosen't mean you don't know anything about this, you aren't living it firsthand.

I think you need to open your eyes a little and notice what you claimed I said had nothing to do with what I actually said.

[Whisper]

Did I say anything racist? No, I didn't, but you seem to think that making a simple claim, not even about black people themselves, is racist.

You took a little statement I made and turned it into your own version of a fucked up comment. You took it way out of proportion, not mention, you aren't even from America, and although that dosen't mean you don't know anything about this, you aren't living it firsthand.

I think you need to open your eyes a little and notice what you claimed I said had nothing to do with what I actually said.

Riiiiiight first of all I don't care if i'm not American
I'm Canadian, one of only 33 million. That means my entire country has the same population as California.
America is over 300 million strong and a world superpower. I share a boarder thats sum 8,891 kilometres (5,525 mi) long with you.
We have more trade and defense agreements between us than anyone else
Believe me, whoever sits in the oval office DIRECTLY affects me.
and if you don't appreciate my opinion then stay the fuck out of this thread -shrug-


In my opinion, the only reason Obama is president is because he is half-black. Had he been white, he would've lost by a landslide.

Now I may be wrong, but this is just my opinion, after seeing all of the support of Obama from the black community, but the miniscule support from the white community.

what you said was racist
I just called you on it
and thats bothering you
deal
http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/j/z/1/obama_superman_awesome.jpg

[Hollywood]

Riiiiiight first of all I don't care if i'm not American
I'm Canadian, one of only 33 million. That means my entire country has the same population as California.
America is over 300 million strong and a world superpower. I share a boarder thats sum 8,891 kilometres (5,525 mi) long with you.
We have more trade and defense agreements between us than anyone else
Believe me, whoever sits in the oval office DIRECTLY affects me.
and if you don't appreciate my opinion then stay the fuck out of this thread -shrug-




what you said was racist
I just called you on it
and thats bothering you
deal
http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/j/z/1/obama_superman_awesome.jpg

You know what? Whatever, you may think what you will, even though I believe it isn't true. I respect your opinion, and I didn't say I didn't appreciate it, wether I agree with it or not.

It's not bothering me, if it were bothering me, I would be saying:
WHAT THE FUCK? YOU SUCK DICK ASSHOLE!
But I didn't say that, now did I?
Do you really think I didn't expect to hear someone else's opinion when I posted here?

[xdeviancex]

OBAMA SUCK ASS obama is try to make this nation communist he wants take away our guns he wants gverment run heath care he tax people more , this guy is taken a freken vaction while our counrty is in hell he want to have less border patrol he wants to do nothing about the us mexican border ,he said he get the troops out of iraq when he got into office but now he lied WHY DID PEOPLE VOTE HIM INTO OFFICE

This is why, no intelligent conversation about politics, should be on a forum with kids who don't know a damn thing and spout out accusations that their parents told them. This kid clearly doesn't know anything about communism, and couldn't tell me where the theory even originates from. Getting troops out of Iraq is way more complicated than you think. Immigration is not even that big of a deal, immigrants are not killing your babies, so stop making it out to be a life or death issue.

[The Dark Lord]

I'm British but Obama seems to be oportunistic and radical ie health care reforms. However, hes a brilliant orator and offers hope to billions. Hes also not Bush which is a bonus

[Atonement]

I don't think Obama as a president is bad, or as a person. However, how he beacame president isn't good.

This may sound racist to some, but it is not. Before around 2006, very few outside of Illinois had heard a lot about Obama, however, his 2008 compitition John McCain, has been well known ever since his military days. In my opinion, the only reason Obama is president is because he is half-black. Had he been white, he would've lost by a landslide.

Now I may be wrong, but this is just my opinion, after seeing all of the support of Obama from the black community, but the miniscule support from the white community.

Okay, lets break down his voting demographics:

Black: 85-95% Obama, 5-15% McCain, How do we know this is because he himself is black and not because he happens to be able to relate to the problems they feel they need help with? Also, did you know that black voters account for only under 15% of the voting public?

White: 43% Obama, 55% McCain, Is this because 55% of America is racist? No. This is most likely because a large majority of white people are Republican.

Hispanics: 66% Obama, 31% McCain, Obama published Spanish campaign ads, McCain did not. Hmm. This makes sense. Also, Bush kind of screwed over the Hispanics over the last decade, I know I wouldn't've voted in another Republican.

Women: 56% Obama (Couldn't find McCain, but lets call it 44%), Now, if we were going by your ideaology, Hilary Clinton would be the Democratic selection, not Obama since there are more voting women than voting blacks. Not only that, but McCain had a woman on his ticket, and still lost by a good margin when traditionally women swing Republican in the past years.

Men: Close to 50-50

People < 30: 66% Obama, 31% McCain: 71% of these were first time voters who voted for Obama.

Catholics: 54% Obama 46%, McCain

Asians: 63% Obama 34% McCain

Jewish: 78% Obama (makes up 2% of the total votes)

source (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1083335/Breakdown-demographics-reveals-black-voters-swept-Obama-White-House.html)

So, going by your ideas, Obama won because he's black. Black vote = under 15% of total voting public. Why didn't Clinton get the nomination then since she was a woman and clearly there are more women than black people.