Do you think that the Iraq war should be stopped or should it continue?

[woody92]

On Wednesday 30th of December staggered explosions killed 23 people. Out of those 23 people, 13 of them were policemen, and an Iraqi provincial governor was wounded. Officials said, it was the worst violence in months to hit the western province that was formerly al-Qaida's top stronghold in Iraq.
The strategically important Anbar_Province (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Anbar_Governorate) was once the heartland of support for al-Qaida-linked militants, before many insurgents turned on the terror organization and joined forces with the U.S. and the Iraqi government. The governor is the most senior Sunni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunni) leader to be attacked since then.
While violence in Iraq has dropped considerably since the height of the conflict in 2006 and 2007, a reinvigorated insurgency in Anbar — which is also Iraq's largest province — could pose a serious risk to the country's stability as it prepares for elections in March.

The bombings are also the latest in a string of attacks to target government buildings and installations in the country, as a way to undermine Iraqis' confidence in the ability of the government to protect itself.
This is just the first part of the story and I didn’t want to go on and on so Click here (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091230/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_iraq) to get the full story.
Yahoo!! News All Rights Reserved!

[Camazotz]

Yes, the war on terror was a foolish move for the United States to make. We sent in troops for hardly any other reason than confusion. We thought Iraq and Afghanistan posed a threat. It seems we're sending soldiers to help Iraq to regain stability, when that's the last thing our county needs.

[KaelKaos]

I believe the Iraq war should be stopped. At first, I was a supporter of the war, as we went in there to introduce stability and effectiveness in Iraq's government and people. And I believe we did that, even though a lot of you don't. We killed Saddam Hussein and introduced a democracy slightly like ours. More than 1500 schools have been renovated, and they've signed a constitution. I feel like we've done all we can in Iraq, and it's time to leave. And now I have doubts about entering Afghanistan. Ever since the Saur Revolution relations between USA and Afghanistan have been patchy, and I think us going into Afghanistan won't be accomplishing anything.

[theOperaGhost]

I voted yes, however my vote requires some explanations. Do I think we should just withdraw from Iraq? No. We went over there and fucked everything up, so we should clean up our mess. Do I think invading Iraq was stupid? Yes. Do I think the war on terror should be stopped? Absolutely not. The war on terror needs to continue. Terrorist organizations such as al Qaeda need to be stopped, but invading Iraq was nearly unrelated to the war on Terrorism to begin with. Continue to fight terrorism, but fighting militant Iraqis is pointless when a good portion of them aren't terrorists or associated with any terrorist organizations.

So, stop the war in Iraq...yes...
But continue the war on Terrorism...it is necessary.

[Raptor22]

On Wednesday 30th of December staggered explosions killed 23 people. Out of those 23 people, 13 of them were policemen, and an Iraqi provincial governor was wounded. Officials said, it was the worst violence in months to hit the western province that was formerly al-Qaida's top stronghold in Iraq.
The strategically important Anbar_Province (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Anbar_Governorate) was once the heartland of support for al-Qaida-linked militants, before many insurgents turned on the terror organization and joined forces with the U.S. and the Iraqi government. The governor is the most senior Sunni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunni) leader to be attacked since then.
While violence in Iraq has dropped considerably since the height of the conflict in 2006 and 2007, a reinvigorated insurgency in Anbar — which is also Iraq's largest province — could pose a serious risk to the country's stability as it prepares for elections in March.

The bombings are also the latest in a string of attacks to target government buildings and installations in the country, as a way to undermine Iraqis' confidence in the ability of the government to protect itself.
This is just the first part of the story and I didn’t want to go on and on so Click here (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091230/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_iraq) to get the full story.
Yahoo!! News All Rights Reserved!

So what? The United States is completely out of a commanding role in Iraq and pulling troops out thanks to George W. Bush and the troop surge. We will be completely out of the country in about a year, why ruin it all now...

[ThatDude93]

I think we should have left Iraq when the new government asked us too. What we were there to do is done. We need to focus on Afghanistan and other areas of terrorism now.

[Maverick]

The War in Iraq definitely needs to end. Whatever your feelings on the matter, financially we cannot afford to be poking around in the middle east. The hundreds of billions of dollars spent on these wars can be better spent at home. The thousands of soldiers died in the war in Iraq and Afghanistan was not a justified even trade for the 3,000 lives lost in 9/11.

Since we started these wars we aren't any safer than before 9/11. In fact all we have done is fallen into the trap Osama Bin Laden made himself http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/11/01/binladen.tape/

The War on Terrorism isn't a war that can be won. By occupying these countries we are only radicalizing them even more. For once maybe if we actually just left these people alone they wouldn't have any incentive to bother us.

[Rainstorm]

In my opinion, the War in Iraq was just another excuse for the US to meddle in other countries affairs and spread the democracy.

There was no reason to invade the country at the time, as the terrorist extrimests were more active in other Middle Eastern countries, and with us being in Iraq, they ended up going there to attack us.

So yes, the Iraq War needs to end, as we have no more business there except for continuing spreading our ideas there.

[Raptor22]

The War in Iraq definitely needs to end. Whatever your feelings on the matter, financially we cannot afford to be poking around in the middle east. The hundreds of billions of dollars spent on these wars can be better spent at home. The thousands of soldiers died in the war in Iraq and Afghanistan was not a justified even trade for the 3,000 lives lost in 9/11.

Since we started these wars we aren't any safer than before 9/11. In fact all we have done is fallen into the trap Osama Bin Laden made himself http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/11/01/binladen.tape/

The War on Terrorism isn't a war that can be won. By occupying these countries we are only radicalizing them even more. For once maybe if we actually just left these people alone they wouldn't have any incentive to bother us.

Thats a bunch of shit, read some facts. The US has succeeded in Iraq and is repurposing our forces there. We have been subject to terror attacks for 30 years and they only got worse. There hasnt been a single successful terror attack in this country since 9/11. You can thank President Bush for that. We took the fight to the enemy protecting Americans in the process. In Iraq we removed a brutal dictator responsible for the deaths of 750000 of his own citizens. It is not our actions that have aggravated terror against us, it is the fact that we are free and they are not, the fact that women have rights here, and that people have freedom of speech and religion, thats why they attack America, because we are the grand beacon of freedom, the 'city on a hill' if you will for the world. The brave men and women that secure our freedom every day for us all signed up to be there, if they want to do it, they chose to. The price of fighting the war on terror is nothing compared to the economic damage the recession of 2002 inflicted in the wake of 9/11. In reality the increased military spending led to a significant rise in a very important sector of our economy that rose with everything else until 2007 and the beginning of the housing crisis. We need to allow the generals to do their job instead of listening to liberal talking head dipshits in Washington. Thanks to the military we are communicating in English right now, be thankful for that.

[Rainstorm]

In Iraq we removed a brutal dictator responsible for the deaths of 750000 of his own citizens.

It was a complete waste of our time, effort, troops, and money. The war was on terrorism, not go and restructure the Iraqi goverment because we don't like their ruler.

In the USSR, we didn't go take out Stalin, and he was just as bad, if not worse. This was just the US trying to spread democracy. It worked, but it was a loss

[Raptor22]

It was a complete waste of our time, effort, troops, and money. The war was on terrorism, not go and restructure the Iraqi goverment because we don't like their ruler.

In the USSR, we didn't go take out Stalin, and he was just as bad, if not worse. This was just the US trying to spread democracy. It worked, but it was a loss

Because stalin actually had WMDs... ;) :P :D

[Rainstorm]

Because stalin actually had WMDs... ;) :P :D

And what did we have? Oh look, some Weapons of Mass Destruction!

[Raptor22]

And what did we have? Oh look, some Weapons of Mass Destruction!

I really dont think that MAD would have benefitted either country... :P

(my last couple posts were entirely tongue in cheek and intended for humor value only ;) )

[Zazu]

No one should have been there in the first place, it was an illegal war. The US just wanted revenge for 9/11 and the good old UK tagged along with its big brother. So many lost lives, all so pointless. I can't see what we've gained from it at all, I can't see why we went there in the first place. Religion, revenge and racism was, and is, a big part of it.

It's also been a complete and utter political and economical fuck up imo.

akm3nYN8aG8

That's well worth watching, encapsulates a lot of my personal feelings.

[Antares]

Finally some good questions in this forum it seems.

YES! It should have never started. It should be ended immediately.
If I were in Obama's shoes, I would start a pull out process of the people that are serving on their 4th tour or more of duty. Then go string by string until we barely occupy the country. This would be over a period of a year.

Eventually the only people I would leave in Iraq is an "emergency" crew that would be there if shit hits the fan and the people on the bases and I would station some vessels in the gulf next to it.

End of problem, now we can take a more DEFENSIVE side to our military interests.

People are tired of fighting. People have been fighting too much in some cases, we need to take a "break" and focus on ending the more legitimate war, Afghanistan

[woody92]

Finally some good questions in this forum it seems.

YES! It should have never started. It should be ended immediately.


People are tired of fighting. People have been fighting too much in some cases, we need to take a "break" and focus on ending the more legitimate war, Afghanistan


Thanks for the compement! really apreciated!

I think that the war should be ended immediately too.
Yes your right I think people are tired of fighting! And I agree they have been fighting tooo much!

[Raptor22]

No one should have been there in the first place, it was an illegal war. The US just wanted revenge for 9/11 and the good old UK tagged along with its big brother. So many lost lives, all so pointless. I can't see what we've gained from it at all, I can't see why we went there in the first place. Religion, revenge and racism was, and is, a big part of it.

It's also been a complete and utter political and economical fuck up imo.

akm3nYN8aG8

That's well worth watching, encapsulates a lot of my personal feelings.

Finally some good questions in this forum it seems.

YES! It should have never started. It should be ended immediately.
If I were in Obama's shoes, I would start a pull out process of the people that are serving on their 4th tour or more of duty. Then go string by string until we barely occupy the country. This would be over a period of a year.

Eventually the only people I would leave in Iraq is an "emergency" crew that would be there if shit hits the fan and the people on the bases and I would station some vessels in the gulf next to it.

End of problem, now we can take a more DEFENSIVE side to our military interests.

People are tired of fighting. People have been fighting too much in some cases, we need to take a "break" and focus on ending the more legitimate war, Afghanistan

Thanks for the compement! really apreciated!

I think that the war should be ended immediately too.
Yes your right I think people are tired of fighting! And I agree they have been fighting tooo much!

I want to beat the shit out of every one of you. Our military is being defensive and keeping the terrorists where they belong, hell. And can Dipshit #1 back up his useless rhetoric?

Ever wonder why Obama campaigned to pull the troops out then when he became president he didnt go thru with it? Maybe because he finally figured out what the fuck is going on. I hope you are all on a flight that gets highjacked and blown up by terrorists.

[Rainstorm]

I want to beat the shit out of every one of you. Our military is being defensive and keeping the terrorists where they belong, hell. And can Dipshit #1 back up his useless rhetoric?

Ever wonder why Obama campaigned to pull the troops out then when he became president he didnt go thru with it? Maybe because he finally figured out what the fuck is going on. I hope you are all on a flight that gets highjacked and blown up by terrorists.

Well, aren't you just a ball of sunshine.

The terrorists aren't even in Iraq anymore, fore the most part. Most of them have moved to new countries, such as Yemen and Somalia. We should be foucising our efforts there, and not sending all our resources to a country that has been allowing us to do the dirty work for the past eight fucking years. It's like babying a kid. You have to let it go so they can finally do something on their own.

[Raptor22]

Well, aren't you just a ball of sunshine.

The terrorists aren't even in Iraq anymore, fore the most part. Most of them have moved to new countries, such as Yemen and Somalia. We should be foucising our efforts there, and not sending all our resources to a country that has been allowing us to do the dirty work for the past eight fucking years. It's like babying a kid. You have to let it go so they can finally do something on their own.

Right I understand that terrorists arent in Iraq anymore, that's why we are in the process of leaving. We are just making sure Iraqis don't fuck it up, we have already cut troop levels in half and are re-purposing them to where its necessary, Afghanistan.

Sorry for being an ass...

[Rutherford The Brave]

I do not condone war at all. I hate war and every aspect of it. So It should be stopped, we are wasting man power on a conflict that I do not see the neccessity for.

[Raptor22]

I do not condone war at all. I hate war and every aspect of it. So It should be stopped, we are wasting man power on a conflict that I do not see the neccessity for.

I do, did the people on 9/11 sign up to potentially give their lives to defend this country? Hell no. Did the troops? Yes they did. Has there been a successful terror attack since? No there hasnt.

I hate war too, I dont think anyone enjoys it. But sometimes its necessary.

[Rainstorm]

We are just making sure Iraqis don't fuck it up


And that's the problem. By now, nine years after we invaded, they should be able to deal with this and we should just be able to pull out. Not take 1000 this month, and 1000 two months later. We took out their leader, restructured their entire government into a democracy, (The US being bastards here, as that wasn't our problem. Bush only wanted the oil) trained their army and police, protected their asses form these terrorists, plus more. We've done too much already, and by slowly leaving, it's not helping.

If they fuck it up, that's their problem now. We've done more than was ever needed.

[Rutherford The Brave]

I do, did the people on 9/11 sign up to potentially give their lives to defend this country? Hell no. Did the troops? Yes they did. Has there been a successful terror attack since? No there hasnt.

I hate war too, I dont think anyone enjoys it. But sometimes its necessary.

Not in this sense, no. Eye for and Eye never got us anywhere. We no longer need to walk around with a "Big SticK" We are civilized people who should use our words rather than our might.

[Raptor22]

And that's the problem. By now, nine years after we invaded, they should be able to deal with this and we should just be able to pull out. Not take 1000 this month, and 1000 two months later. We took out their leader, restructured their entire government into a democracy, (The US being bastards here, as that wasn't our problem. Bush only wanted the oil) trained their army and police, protected their asses form these terrorists, plus more. We've done too much already, and by slowly leaving, it's not helping.

If they fuck it up, that's their problem now. We've done more than was ever needed.

Bush didnt use any of the oil, thats why the prices got jacked up sky high, Kuwait has all the oil and we were already buying it from them. The Iraqis are dealing with it, we have ceded control of all 21 major cities in the country and now have a very minor supervisory role, they are handling things themselves. If we pulled out completely now I believe that they can handle it but its best to ensure that they are totally prepared, or else the 7 years, the money, and the lives were all for naught.

Not in this sense, no. Eye for and Eye never got us anywhere. We no longer need to walk around with a "Big SticK" We are civilized people who should use our words rather than our might.

These people hate us for WHO WE ARE. It doesnt matter how nice we are too them, we will never stop doing the things that piss them off. Like giving women rights, and free practicing of our own religions. They will continue to seek to kill us as long as we are a beacon for what they have a fundamental hatred for, freedom.

No terrorist is gonna give up his 72 virgins because we talk nice to them, smoke a peace pipe, and give them some tshirts or something...

[Rainstorm]

or else the 7 years, the money, and the lives were all for naught.

They were already wasted.

[Rutherford The Brave]

Bush didnt use any of the oil, thats why the prices got jacked up sky high, Kuwait has all the oil and we were already buying it from them. The Iraqis are dealing with it, we have ceded control of all 21 major cities in the country and now have a very minor supervisory role, they are handling things themselves. If we pulled out completely now I believe that they can handle it but its best to ensure that they are totally prepared, or else the 7 years, the money, and the lives were all for naught.



These people hate us for WHO WE ARE. It doesnt matter how nice we are too them, we will never stop doing the things that piss them off. Like giving women rights, and free practicing of our own religions. They will continue to seek to kill us as long as we are a beacon for what they have a fundamental hatred for, freedom.

No terrorist is gonna give up his 72 virgins because we talk nice to them, smoke a peace pipe, and give them some tshirts or something...

I don't care what they do not like, we do not need to sink to their levels, just to make ourselfs look bigger and to get revenge. As for the bolded statement I find that extremely offensive. Most people will say it is not, thats not the point. Insuiating that a peaceful practice like the peace pipe is something that is used so freely.

[theOperaGhost]

Not in this sense, no. Eye for and Eye never got us anywhere. We no longer need to walk around with a "Big SticK" We are civilized people who should use our words rather than our might.

Tell that to the militant extremist terrorists...I'm sure they'd love to talk about it...

[Rutherford The Brave]

Tell that to the militant extremist terrorists...I'm sure they'd love to talk about it...

I'm not talking about them. We as Americans know that others know how powerful we are. We do not need to walk around with out chest out and my muscles flexed to get people to notice our might.

[Raptor22]

I'm not talking about them. We as Americans know that others know how powerful we are. We do not need to walk around with out chest out and my muscles flexed to get people to notice our might.

While the extremists kill us because they dont give a shit how peaceful we are.

I also like how everyone in here seems to think stopping a conflict is like a referee blowing a whistle at a sporting event, reality isnt like that. We in reality would appreciate it you could join us. :)

[Rainstorm]

While the extremists kill us because they dont give a shit how peaceful we are.

You do know that America, in a sense, brought this on themselves

[Rutherford The Brave]

While the extremists kill us because they dont give a shit how peaceful we are.

I don't give a shit if they fight with their lives to kill us. Eventually they will die, we do not need to fight to prove to anyone who we are. We need to let people change themselves, and stop being the "Arsenal of Democracy" You wonder why they do not give a shit about how peaceful we are? Because we act like we got the biggest pair.

[Raptor22]

I don't give a shit if they fight with their lives to kill us. Eventually they will die, we do not need to fight to prove to anyone who we are. We need to let people change themselves, and stop being the "Arsenal of Democracy" You wonder why they do not give a shit about how peaceful we are? Because we act like we got the biggest pair.

How would you feel if you or one of your family members was killed by terrorists? Would you still believe what you believe now? Isnt that a little naive? (real question, not sarcasm or anything)

I posted earlier why they dont like us:

These people hate us for WHO WE ARE. It doesnt matter how nice we are too them, we will never stop doing the things that piss them off. Like giving women rights, and free practicing of our own religions. They will continue to seek to kill us as long as we are a beacon for what they have a fundamental hatred for, freedom.

So in order for them to not hate us you are advising we give up our 1st Amendment rights and 13/14/15, and 19th Amendment rights (equal rights amendments) in order to appease their brutal sharia view of an ideal society?

As long as we are a beacon for freedom, people will hate us.

[Rutherford The Brave]

How would you feel if you or one of your family members was killed by terrorists? Would you still believe what you believe now? Isnt that a little naive? (real question, not sarcasm or anything)

I will feel bad that my family member was killed. However it is not my place to take a life for a life. I'm not a ego centric, revenge driven person. I'll feel sure. Yet, I would not change my beliefs, I have no desire to kill someone Nor sink to their level. Thus me saying my opinon Eye for and Eye is a terrible philosophy.

Also no one, has asked us (recently) to be the beacon of freedom, we just decided that we were. Thats why people hate us.

[Raptor22]

I will feel bad that my family member was killed. However it is not my place to take a life for a life. I'm not a ego centric, revenge driven person. I'll feel sure. Yet, I would not change my beliefs, I have no desire to kill someone Nor sink to their level. Thus me saying my opinon Eye for and Eye is a terrible philosophy.

Also no one, has asked us (recently) to be the beacon of freedom, we just decided that we were. Thats why people hate us.

Why is being a beacon of freedom a bad thing? Whatever happened to "Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses?" Is being an example for freedom and democracy a bad thing? You are acting like it is our fault we are attacked by terrorists. We are the beacon of freedom because we were the first to embrace a modern representative democracy, we have the longest standing modern constitution of any nation, we brought freedom to the world by saving their asses multiple times during the first and second world wars and opposing the iron grip of marxism as it ravished third world nations during the Cold War. And its not just the beacon of freedom part, its the part about giving women and minorities rights, and giving everyone freedom of speech, religion, and assembly.

Would you have retaliated against the Japanese after Pearl Harbor? What if they invaded the mainland? Would you oppose fighting them because "Eye for an eye is a terrible philosophy" while they make bayonet practice on your family because you are (im assuming) not Japanese? If you were Abraham Lincoln would you fight the Confederacy from breaking off from the Union in order to save the country and free slaves? Im interested in your response. :)

I can understand your point of view and I actually kind of agree with it except for the fact that its 'pie-in-the sky,' its not practical.

[kyle56]

this is a strong topic for me. the war is good. I mean really some ppl say tht to many troops have died, but compare all the ones weve lost to wwII and WWI weve lost barely any. Also look at all the advancements weve had on secruity since the war has started. it has been suprising to me that nothing serious like 911 has hapened since. i think this war has kept the us safe and shood continue. lastly obama sux and hes a lieing piece of s**t

[Raptor22]

this is a strong topic for me. the war is good. I mean really some ppl say tht to many troops have died, but compare all the ones weve lost to wwII and WWI weve lost barely any. Also look at all the advancements weve had on secruity since the war has started. it has been suprising to me that nothing serious like 911 has hapened since. i think this war has kept the us safe and shood continue. lastly obama sux and hes a lieing piece of s**t

I agree with Kyle, could be better said but the essence is there. The reason we are safe is because we brought the fight to the terrorists and, and instituted the P.A.T.R.I.O.T act which has led to the down fall of almost a dozen declassified terrorist threats in the last 8 years...

You can thank President Bush for that.

[CaptainObvious]

I do, did the people on 9/11 sign up to potentially give their lives to defend this country? Hell no. Did the troops? Yes they did. Has there been a successful terror attack since? No there hasnt.

Well that's just not true because in fact if you count consistently there have been as many or more major terrorist attacks since 9/11 as before.

It has been about 8.5 years since 9/11. In that time, there have been no major foreign-planned terrorist attacks on US soil. But...

...there were also no major foreign-planned terrorist attacks on US soil in the 8.5 years before. In fact, the 1993 WTC bombings occurred just a bit over 8.5 years before 9/11. The only major terrorism on US soil during that stretch was, in fact, at the hands of an American: the tragic bombing of the Oklahoma federal building in 1995.

So what were the other major incidents of the 90's? The Cole and embassy bombings. And those can't count for your point either: the latter were against targets that are still significantly targeted - the only reason the Baghdad embassy isn't in cinders, for example, is that it is a massive fortress - and the former was an attack against foreign-stationed US military personnel. If we're counting military personnel, you have to count the thousands of soldiers that have died int he wars since 9/11.

So that entire statement of yours is just inaccurate.

this is a strong topic for me. the war is good. I mean really some ppl say tht to many troops have died, but compare all the ones weve lost to wwII and WWI weve lost barely any. Also look at all the advancements weve had on secruity since the war has started. it has been suprising to me that nothing serious like 911 has hapened since. i think this war has kept the us safe and shood continue. lastly obama sux and hes a lieing piece of s**t

What do domestic security advance have to do with the wars overseas. If anything, the wars have made America less secure with their massive financial toll - and ensuing strategic limitations for America - and the number of terrorists they have created themselves.

And that line about Obama is laughable. What's he done to be a lying piece of shit?

Why is being a beacon of freedom a bad thing? Whatever happened to "Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses?" Is being an example for freedom and democracy a bad thing? You are acting like it is our fault we are attacked by terrorists. We are the beacon of freedom

This would be really funny... if you weren't being serious. America isn't "the beacon of freedom" for the world, we've got quite a good handle on the concept ourselves without a nation with its own major share of intolerance, subjugation and violent injustice preaching about it, thanks. In case you didn't notice, there are many countries around the world with as much or more effective freedom as America. Being a rights-respecting democracy isn't that big an accomplishment, you know.

because we were the first to embrace a modern representative democracy, we have the longest standing modern constitution of any nation

Well obviously if you specify everything as "modern" and define "modern" as "when we started doing it that way", then you'll be first at everything.

Not to mention that you're wrong anyways, because the first modern constitution was that of San Marino, which has existed in its codified form since 1600, uncodified since 1300, and remains in force today.

we brought freedom to the world by saving their asses multiple times during the first and second world wars

I always wonder what they teach about the world wars that always makes uninformed American children think it was some awesome "America saves the day again!" swooping in of America to win the war singlehandedly. America did next to nothing in World War I, and it was only the possibility of future overwhelming military action from America that was needed to end the war. Make no mistake, World War I was primarily fought by the British Empire and France.

As for World War II, while it's more debatable in this case it's a significant stretch to argue that America saved asses. By that criterion, the latest-joining winning party "saved the asses" of everyone else. But would America have still won the war if Germany had conquered Europe and Britain before it got involved? Not likely.

To say that America saved the world's asses is laughable, in other words.

And its not just the beacon of freedom part, its the part about giving women and minorities rights, and giving everyone freedom of speech, religion, and assembly.

Do you want a cookie or something? Most of the developed world has such freedoms, and a number even do it better - and have, for longer - than America.

I posted earlier why they dont like us:

So in order for them to not hate us you are advising we give up our 1st Amendment rights and 13/14/15, and 19th Amendment rights (equal rights amendments) in order to appease their brutal sharia view of an ideal society?

As long as we are a beacon for freedom, people will hate us.

The fact that you posted it doesn't make it right. If you've read about terrorism as a sociological phenomenon you'd know that most of the terrorists who actually commit attacks are of questionable theological grounding; few actually hold well-thought-out fundamentalist Islamic views that cause their terrorism. Most are poor, or angry at America for Israel, or otherwise disenchanted and a whole host of factors play into their becoming terrorists.

It's much more similar to the process of becoming a criminal for the ground soldiers than some grand ideological clash. The leaders might hold the well-formed ideological Islamic views, and those you might never eradicate. But what good is Osama bin Laden ranting in a cave about the need to return to Sharia and a global Islamic caliphate if there's no impressionable young men to carry out his attacks?

The answer is, he is nothing. So there are many more complexities here than "they hate us for our freedom, we have to either stop being free or kill them", because that's just a stupidly simplistic point of view.

[Rutherford The Brave]

Why is being a beacon of freedom a bad thing? Whatever happened to "Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses?" Is being an example for freedom and democracy a bad thing? You are acting like it is our fault we are attacked by terrorists. We are the beacon of freedom because we were the first to embrace a modern representative democracy, we have the longest standing modern constitution of any nation, we brought freedom to the world by saving their asses multiple times during the first and second world wars and opposing the iron grip of marxism as it ravished third world nations during the Cold War. And its not just the beacon of freedom part, its the part about giving women and minorities rights, and giving everyone freedom of speech, religion, and assembly.

Would you have retaliated against the Japanese after Pearl Harbor? What if they invaded the mainland? Would you oppose fighting them because "Eye for an eye is a terrible philosophy" while they make bayonet practice on your family because you are (im assuming) not Japanese? If you were Abraham Lincoln would you fight the Confederacy from breaking off from the Union in order to save the country and free slaves? Im interested in your response. :)

I can understand your point of view and I actually kind of agree with it except for the fact that its 'pie-in-the sky,' its not practical.

Your point is moot, none of that stuff happened so I cannot tell you.

[Rainstorm]

Apparantly, Kyle and Raptor seem to believe that by freeing the Iraqi citizens from a dictitorial leader has made us even more safer and prevent terrorism.

The Iraq War Is NOT, and NEVER has been a war on terror. Just an excuse, once again I fucking say it, an excuse for The US to show it's might and overthrow another goverment in the need to spead our conceided ideas of democracy to a nation we had no buisness in.

Sadam Hussein =/= Terrorism.

Bush used that as an excuse for the invasion, clamining that they had nucleur weapons being made. Did we ever find any? No, we fucking didn't. At that point, we should have pulled out. Not now.

These wars are putting us into even greater debt, and I find no reason to believe it is making us safer.

Also, Obama is full of win :D

[Maverick]

Thats a bunch of shit, read some facts.
I do read facts. Perhaps you should read some facts and learn some history rather than developing an opinion from what you hear from the media.

The US has succeeded in Iraq and is repurposing our forces there.
Succeeded in what way? Overthrowing Saddam? Like that was even a challenge to begin with. Where's the evidence that Saddam was ever a threat? Al-Qaeda wasn't even in Iraq before the invasion.

We have been subject to terror attacks for 30 years and they only got worse. There hasnt been a single successful terror attack in this country since 9/11. You can thank President Bush for that. We took the fight to the enemy protecting Americans in the process.
And you honestly believe that we get attacked because we are free and prosperous? You need to evaluate our interventionist foreign policy. If a country like China or Russia told us we couldn't have nukes, or Chinese troops walked our streets, wouldn't you hate them? If China told us how to run our government and bribed our officials to work into the interests of them and not the people, wouldn't you hate China too?

Osama Bin Laden debunked the argument that they attack us because we are free. He said so in a tape. Here's a partial transcript.

[CNN) --

You, the American people, I talk to you today about the best way to avoid another catastrophe and about war, its reasons and its consequences.

And in that regard, I say to you that security is an important pillar of human life, and that free people do not compromise their security.

Contrary to what [President George W.] Bush says and claims -- that we hate freedom --let him tell us then, "Why did we not attack Sweden?" It is known that those who hate freedom don't have souls with integrity, like the souls of those 19. May the mercy of God be upon them.

We fought with you because we are free, and we don't put up with transgressions. We want to reclaim our nation. As you spoil our security, we will do so to you.

I wonder about you. Although we are ushering the fourth year after 9/11, Bush is still exercising confusion and misleading you and not telling you the true reason. Therefore, the motivations are still there for what happened to be repeated.

As you can clearly see his argument is pretty clear. If they hated free countries then why didn't they attack Sweden? He makes it pretty clear that the motivations for the attacks are our interventions in the middle east. You can date our intervention in the middle east all the way back to the 1950s when our CIA overthrew a democratically elected Prime Minister in Iran. Those events were believed to lead to the Iranian revolution which put in power an anti-western theocracy.

In Iraq we removed a brutal dictator responsible for the deaths of 750000 of his own citizens
We have also killed thousands of Iraqi civilians since the invasion.

The price of fighting the war on terror is nothing compared to the economic damage the recession of 2002 inflicted in the wake of 9/11. In reality the increased military spending led to a significant rise in a very important sector of our economy that rose with everything else until 2007 and the beginning of the housing crisis. We need to allow the generals to do their job instead of listening to liberal talking head dipshits in Washington. Thanks to the military we are communicating in English right now, be thankful for that.
Even the strongest military isn't above the laws of economics. The USA can't forever print and borrow money to fund its empire all over the world. In fact when empires over extend themselves that's how they're forced to withdraw and go back home. The United States is in for some major hard times when the real economic crisis starts.

[Antares]

Stop believing what the government tells you.
They lie. Don't believe them.

There is no legit reason why we are in Iraq. The Iraq war is a dud. People are losing their lives for nothing! Where are the terrorists that are a threat to us now? Not in Iraq, I can tell you that. What we are doing in Iraq is fighting within a religious and civil war. There is no threat to us and there never was.
Saddam Hussein was never really a real threat to us and while I can't say the real reason why Bush went in there, I can say that Al Queda or whoever the media always feeds to us isn't there now and probably never was.

Therefore the war should have never started and should not be going on right now. It seems that the only thing I am reading from this thread is how "the terrorists are out to get us in Iraq and people are dieing because the terrorist is a threat and we need freedom yar yar yar"
Iraq is not our problem. If you want to go fight an unwinnable war go to Yemen because thats where the last remotely successful terrorist came from. Or maybe Afghaistan or whereever we know them actual terrorists are...or we could go on the defensive

[Raptor22]

Well that's just not true because in fact if you count consistently there have been as many or more major terrorist attacks since 9/11 as before.

It has been about 8.5 years since 9/11. In that time, there have been no major foreign-planned terrorist attacks on US soil. But...

...there were also no major foreign-planned terrorist attacks on US soil in the 8.5 years before. In fact, the 1993 WTC bombings occurred just a bit over 8.5 years before 9/11. The only major terrorism on US soil during that stretch was, in fact, at the hands of an American: the tragic bombing of the Oklahoma federal building in 1995.

So what were the other major incidents of the 90's? The Cole and embassy bombings. And those can't count for your point either: the latter were against targets that are still significantly targeted - the only reason the Baghdad embassy isn't in cinders, for example, is that it is a massive fortress - and the former was an attack against foreign-stationed US military personnel. If we're counting military personnel, you have to count the thousands of soldiers that have died int he wars since 9/11.

So that entire statement of yours is just inaccurate.



What do domestic security advance have to do with the wars overseas. If anything, the wars have made America less secure with their massive financial toll - and ensuing strategic limitations for America - and the number of terrorists they have created themselves.

And that line about Obama is laughable. What's he done to be a lying piece of shit?



This would be really funny... if you weren't being serious. America isn't "the beacon of freedom" for the world, we've got quite a good handle on the concept ourselves without a nation with its own major share of intolerance, subjugation and violent injustice preaching about it, thanks. In case you didn't notice, there are many countries around the world with as much or more effective freedom as America. Being a rights-respecting democracy isn't that big an accomplishment, you know.



Well obviously if you specify everything as "modern" and define "modern" as "when we started doing it that way", then you'll be first at everything.

Not to mention that you're wrong anyways, because the first modern constitution was that of San Marino, which has existed in its codified form since 1600, uncodified since 1300, and remains in force today.



I always wonder what they teach about the world wars that always makes uninformed American children think it was some awesome "America saves the day again!" swooping in of America to win the war singlehandedly. America did next to nothing in World War I, and it was only the possibility of future overwhelming military action from America that was needed to end the war. Make no mistake, World War I was primarily fought by the British Empire and France.

As for World War II, while it's more debatable in this case it's a significant stretch to argue that America saved asses. By that criterion, the latest-joining winning party "saved the asses" of everyone else. But would America have still won the war if Germany had conquered Europe and Britain before it got involved? Not likely.

To say that America saved the world's asses is laughable, in other words.



Do you want a cookie or something? Most of the developed world has such freedoms, and a number even do it better - and have, for longer - than America.



The fact that you posted it doesn't make it right. If you've read about terrorism as a sociological phenomenon you'd know that most of the terrorists who actually commit attacks are of questionable theological grounding; few actually hold well-thought-out fundamentalist Islamic views that cause their terrorism. Most are poor, or angry at America for Israel, or otherwise disenchanted and a whole host of factors play into their becoming terrorists.

It's much more similar to the process of becoming a criminal for the ground soldiers than some grand ideological clash. The leaders might hold the well-formed ideological Islamic views, and those you might never eradicate. But what good is Osama bin Laden ranting in a cave about the need to return to Sharia and a global Islamic caliphate if there's no impressionable young men to carry out his attacks?

The answer is, he is nothing. So there are many more complexities here than "they hate us for our freedom, we have to either stop being free or kill them", because that's just a stupidly simplistic point of view.

Im not talking about the freedom and rights part whether its truthful or not, thats how the terrorists 'perceive' our country. Just like many Americans believed that Bush was a dumbass, hes probably not as stupid as folks made him out to be but thats how he was percieved.

Stop believing what the government tells you.
They lie. Don't believe them.

There is no legit reason why we are in Iraq. The Iraq war is a dud. People are losing their lives for nothing! Where are the terrorists that are a threat to us now? Not in Iraq, I can tell you that. What we are doing in Iraq is fighting within a religious and civil war. There is no threat to us and there never was.
Saddam Hussein was never really a real threat to us and while I can't say the real reason why Bush went in there, I can say that Al Queda or whoever the media always feeds to us isn't there now and probably never was.

Therefore the war should have never started and should not be going on right now. It seems that the only thing I am reading from this thread is how "the terrorists are out to get us in Iraq and people are dieing because the terrorist is a threat and we need freedom yar yar yar"
Iraq is not our problem. If you want to go fight an unwinnable war go to Yemen because thats where the last remotely successful terrorist came from. Or maybe Afghaistan or whereever we know them actual terrorists are...or we could go on the defensive

Thats not what I am saying. I am saying finish Iraq and continue the troop pullout, we are done. Im saying fight the terrorists in Iraq and kill them. I am saying that just leaving will do nothing but enable more terror attacks because the terrorists are fundamentally against the United States and what we stand for....

[Rebecca L Vaughn]

Even as much as everyone in America and other countries would like the war to stop, you just can't do it to fast. It might give an opportunity for a foreign country to invade America, or it would be considered a loss, and America would be paying billions of dollars for reparations on top of our trillion dollar debt already.

[Rutherford The Brave]

Even as much as everyone in America and other countries would like the war to stop, you just can't do it to fast. It might give an opportunity for a foreign country to invade America, or it would be considered a loss, and America would be paying billions of dollars for reparations on top of our trillion dollar debt already.

Which was the result of us going to war in the first place.

[CaptainObvious]

Even as much as everyone in America and other countries would like the war to stop, you just can't do it to fast. It might give an opportunity for a foreign country to invade America, or it would be considered a loss, and America would be paying billions of dollars for reparations on top of our trillion dollar debt already.

This just makes absolutely no sense. Not to mention what Greg did.

[Rutherford The Brave]

This just makes absolutely no sense. Not to mention what Greg did.

Wait what?

[CaptainObvious]

Wait what?

I was expressing my thoughs that her argument made zero sense, while noting that your specific critique - that the debt has been added to and continues to be added to by the war - is valid.

[Rutherford The Brave]

Oh ok, thank you.

[Ryhanna]

We should all just pull out, in my opinion. We're not really acheiving much apart from deaths. We shouldn't even have invaded Iraq in the first place.

[Jove]

We should all just pull out, in my opinion. We're not really acheiving much apart from deaths. We shouldn't even have invaded Iraq in the first place.

The problem America has there is that they pull out, people will hate them even more for leaving the country wide open to extremists (even more so than now) and in ruins. Basically its an epic fail/epic fail situation.

[Rutherford The Brave]

The problem America has there is that they pull out, people will hate them even more for leaving the country wide open to extremists (even more so than now) and in ruins. Basically its an epic fail/epic fail situation.

They hate us already for being there.

[Jove]

They hate us already for being there.

Yep, it's one huge ****up

[iangillan]

We just too much care abot democracy in other country,and in this way forget demokracy in USA. Through hystory we takin care about Korea,and wat` happend ???????
Vietnam, so what we doin there ??? Fight for Demokracy or fight against therrorism,Therorisam on other end of the world.
And Afghanistan,,,,what we are doin there.Fight against O.Bin Laden, while that same O.B.L fighting on our side against Russia (USSR/SSSR) in Afghanistan on early˙`s 1980..
Where is the democracy in the USA. Perhaps, the humiliation of Muslims, due to the same religion as the people in Afghanistan.
We are certainly not a democratic country, as presented.

[Triceratops]

Do not bump old threads.
:locked: