Does America Still Have Heroes?

[TheKingDavis]

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Listen to the whole thing, its something i wrote for a VFW essay competition last month.
I believe it is very powerful, others (adults and teens) who have listened to the CD agree.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KBFNeRozv8

[Quick_Sylver]

hm...I agree with most of it, even without looking into a soldiers eyes. Good job.

[Bougainvillea]

We do take time to thank the soldiers. Just not in the way you expect.

But what about others?
Doctors, firemen, POLICE OFFICERS, paramedics, and others who help keep us safe and well. I just love how you failed to mention those heroes.
Military has been entwined in my family, but I do not plan on getting involved with it.

Look into the eyes of america, and you see ALL of these people.

[TheKingDavis]

I just love how you failed to mention those heroes.

The topic isnt over them, it is over military HENCE VFW ESSAY (veterans of foreign wars)
I just love how you jump to conclusions

[Bougainvillea]

I know, but people still make a great hype about soldiers. But still FAIL to see the real idea of heroes.

[TheKingDavis]

I know, but people still make a great hype about soldiers. But still FAIL to see the real idea of heroes.

Then tell me what is a real hero, cuz its sure not superman flying around the damn town


a hero to me, is anyone who risks their lives, or helps someone else

[Sugaree]

a hero to me, is anyone who risks their lives, or helps someone else

You've just contradicted yourself. Firemen help others and risk their lives. Same goes with police officers and paramedics. Soldiers aren't the ONLY one out there that help. You don't HAVE to be a soldier to earn the status of a "hero". Even though this is your main focus, you do lack in mentioning others who risk their lives other than soldiers.

[Bougainvillea]

Also, I think our enemies could be heroes.

We kill them for fighting for their countries, and what they believe in.

[TheKingDavis]

You've just contradicted yourself. Firemen help others and risk their lives. Same goes with police officers and paramedics. Soldiers aren't the ONLY one out there that help. You don't HAVE to be a soldier to earn the status of a "hero". Even though this is your main focus, you do lack in mentioning others who risk their lives other than soldiers.

i did not contradict myself, the essay is over MILITARY, maybe if people read they would understand that. outside of military, yes i believe in those other heroes. Dont try to twist my words

[nick]

Also, I think our enemies could be heroes.

We kill them for fighting for their countries, and what they believe in.
Most of what's done by the combined nato military machine is in no sense heroic. Barbaric would be a better word. Killing tens of thousands of innocent civilans and we call it a war on terror, what a joke, war of terror more like. Pick on an enemy far weaker and bomb the shit out of them. Great. What heroes.

[TheKingDavis]

Most of what's done by the combined nato military machine is in no sense heroic. Barbaric would be a better word. Killing tens of thousands of innocent civilans and we call it a war on terror, what a joke, war of terror more like. Pick on an enemy far weaker and bomb the shit out of them. Great. What heroes.

you call nuclear weapons far weaker? get real

[nick]

you call nuclear weapons far weaker? get real
I dont want to start an argument with you Dustin, but are you brain washed or something? Which nuclear power have you attacked recently then, and which cities have they obliterated with their nuclear response?

[theOperaGhost]

Then tell me what is a real hero, cuz its sure not superman flying around the damn town


a hero to me, is anyone who risks their lives, or helps someone else

i did not contradict myself, the essay is over MILITARY, maybe if people read they would understand that. outside of military, yes i believe in those other heroes. Dont try to twist my words

In fact you did contradict yourself.

Most of what's done by the combined nato military machine is in no sense heroic. Barbaric would be a better word. Killing tens of thousands of innocent civilans and we call it a war on terror, what a joke, war of terror more like. Pick on an enemy far weaker and bomb the shit out of them. Great. What heroes.

So people standing up for the freedom of their country are now barbarians? I feel anyone who has the balls to stand up for the protection of the citizens of their country is certainly heroic. Maybe that's just because I take pride in my country.

[nick]

I was speaking for my country as well as yours, even if we are always very much the junior partners. I take a pride in my country but certainly not an uncritical pride and I have no pride in our recent foreign policy. Explain to me exactly the threat that Iraq posed to America? All those non existent weapons of mass destruction???

When your country really wants to make war on terror and stand up for human rights you will face up to and do something about Israel.

[Sage]

Based on America's population I would say it is statistically improbably that not a single one citizen is a hero. So, yes, America does have heroes. Next debate please.

[The Batman]

I wouldn't call soldiers heroes because I don't believe in using violence and intimidation to against the people we don't like.

[Sugaree]

i did not contradict myself, the essay is over MILITARY, maybe if people read they would understand that.

I DID read it, but you contradicted yourself. The opinion you are showcasing is that the only heros for America are it's military. You say heros are ones who risk their lives and help others. Even if it was only on the military, you could have at least acknowlged that there are other heros. You didn't write this essay very well.

[TheKingDavis]

I wouldn't call soldiers heroes because I don't believe in using violence and intimidation to against the people we don't like.

They arent heroes for risking their lives for you? Jesus, then who the FUCK is a gisshdamned hero to you? the guy who puts a gunt o your head and says to give him your purse/wallet? FFS

I dont want to start an argument with you Dustin, but are you brain washed or something? Which nuclear power have you attacked recently then, and which cities have they obliterated with their nuclear response?

im not trying to to start a fight with you either, you are actually one of the nicer ones on VT, but point in case, they have threatened to use it, therefore they are a threat.

[Sage]

They arent heroes for risking their lives for you? Jesus, then who the FUCK is a gisshdamned hero to you? the guy who puts a gunt o your head and says to give him your purse/wallet? FFS

It's hard to consider soldiers to be heroes when the war they're fighting is pointless to begin with.

[TheKingDavis]

It's hard to consider soldiers to be heroes when the war they're fighting is pointless to begin with.

Its people with opinions like that, that will fuck up America.

Do you not remember 9/11 . everyone thought it was a good idea then, but of course just like in 'nam the American people lose their support.

People with opinions like your are why obama was elected.

Watch and see, when we draw out of this war, osama will attack the US again

[Bougainvillea]

Its people with opinions like that, that will fuck up America.

As if it's not fucked up already?

[Camazotz]

They arent heroes for risking their lives for you? Jesus, then who the FUCK is a gisshdamned hero to you? the guy who puts a gunt o your head and says to give him your purse/wallet? FFS

Suicide bombers are heroes too because they sacrifice their life for their country and religion. They are the true heroes here.

Right?

[TheKingDavis]

As if it's not fucked up already?

It is. But we have people trying to correct it.

Suicide bombers are heroes too because they sacrifice their life for their country and religion. They are the true heroes here.

Right?

To their own place, then yes. To us, no. They kill because somone said they would get 72 virgins, we kill becuase we have been killed,

[Sage]

Its people with opinions like that, that will fuck up America.

I didn't know I had so much political influence in the US, given I live in Canada.

Do you not remember 9/11 . everyone thought it was a good idea then, but of course just like in 'nam the American people lose their support.

Yeah, 'cause 'Nam was a bad idea.

People with opinions like your are why obama was elected.

Yeah that's kinda how a democracy works.

Watch and see, when we draw out of this war, osama will attack the US again

Be paranoid, that's just what these bronze-age bombers want.

They kill because somone said they would get 72 virgins, we kill becuase we have been killed,

Yeah, they obviously aren't pissed off at us for going in there and ripping their already unstable country apart. Not at all, it's all religion, they're all stupid, the media told me so, uh-huh.

[Sugaree]

Its people with opinions like that, that will fuck up America.

Do you not remember 9/11 . everyone thought it was a good idea then, but of course just like in 'nam the American people lose their support.

People with opinions like your are why obama was elected.

Watch and see, when we draw out of this war, osama will attack the US again

Ha...haha...hahahahahahahaha

You HONESTLY believe that this war has a cause? Wow, aren't you the smart little one. We've been in this war for six years. What's happened other than hundreds of bombings and thousands of our soldiers dead? Tim is from Canada (or Canadia as he calls it), so why would his opinion "fuck up" America? Being a fellow American myself, I don't HAVE to support everything the government does. I have a mind and free will. I can support what I want to.

Don't bring 9/11 into this. You'll only cause a fight. The events proceeding 9/11 and the Vietnam War are NOT one in the same. Comparing the two just doesn't match. The Vietnam War wasn't set off by us, but rather the Vietamese (sp?). Once Communist Russia decended upon North Vietnam, they (North Vietnam) tried to spread it to the South region of the country. It lead to huge disagreements and started a war.

Nixon decided to get the U.S. involved and sent the military to aid the south Vietamese. We got involved in a war that wasn't ours, nor was it MEANT to be ours.

Don't get started on Obama either. He was elected on one word: "Change". People with opinions similar or like Tim's are NOT to blame for Obama's election.

And so what if we draw out of the war? It will only prove that we went in unorginized and witless. Osama won't attack us again. Why would he want to spend so much time planning ANOTHER attack? It took him over a decade to plan the September 11th attacks, so why bother? Even if he does attack, I think we'll be more prepared.

[theOperaGhost]

I wouldn't call soldiers heroes because I don't believe in using violence and intimidation to against the people we don't like.

So police aren't heroes? They sometimes use violence and intimidation to get to criminals and protect the majority of the population.

Its people with opinions like that, that will fuck up America.

Do you not remember 9/11 . everyone thought it was a good idea then, but of course just like in 'nam the American people lose their support.

People with opinions like your are why obama was elected.

Watch and see, when we draw out of this war, osama will attack the US again

I have to disagree with you here...Unfortunately the war in Iraq has nothing to do with Osama and I can't seem to grasp the true reason we invaded Iraq....oil? to end Hussein's regime? to find WMD? To liberate the Iraqi's? What was it?

However, I don't think this should cause people to stop supporting soldiers...this should cause people to stop supporting the government.

During Vietnam, most of the American people thought the soldiers were horrible people and many absolutely hated them. It should have only been the government people hated...most of the soldiers were drafted!

[Bougainvillea]

It is. But we have people trying to correct it.

Like Obama.

[The Batman]

Dustin first of all I'm going to ask you to calm down and to treat me with the same amount of respect I am treating you.

The only people that fought for my life fought in the revolutionary war, civil war, WWI, WWII and hell I'll say Vietnam. But really this war now is in no way threatening to us at all just because a few psychos jumped on a plane and bombed a building it isn't reason enough to go to war IMO. Real heroes are the ones that try not to use violence to solve the worlds problem anyone can pull the trigger of a gun.

[Camazotz]

To their own place, then yes. To us, no. They kill because somone said they would get 72 virgins, we kill becuase we have been killed,

They're my heroes. They are not only risking their life, they are sacrificing their life for their country and religion. They kill for the injustice upon them; they kill because their families have been killed by their enemies.

We kill because we want to spread peace by going to war and killing. I don't think we're setting a very good example.

Believe it or not, we're not all that different.

[TheKingDavis]

I didn't know I had so much political influence in the US, given I live in Canada.

READ THE POST AGAIN. OPINIONS like THAT, I did not specify you.

Dustin first of all I'm going to ask you to calm down and to treat me with the same amount of respect I am treating you.

The only people that fought for my life fought in the revolutionary war, civil war, WWI, WWII and hell I'll say Vietnam. But really this war now is in no way threatening to us at all just because a few psychos jumped on a plane and bombed a building it isn't reason enough to go to war IMO. Real heroes are the ones that try not to use violence to solve the worlds problem anyone can pull the trigger of a gun.

Where do words get you ? no where. especially when your enemy isnt willing to budge either.
and really, killing Americans is ok? So if i go to your house and shoot all of your family, then technically it is ok.

Like Obama.

hes screwing America up even more

Wow, aren't you the smart little one.

before you go calling people "little one" check their age, im not saying a year is a big difference (its not) but show some respect

[Rutherford The Brave]

We don't have heroes, FDR was a hero, Black Jack pershing was a hero. All we have is obama, and people who are fighting a useless war. In our history optomism hasn't gotten us anywhere. We need a realist not some silly person who thinks chasing a man with a turban is going to satisfy the country, and the families who have lost. I must state once again, there are no heroes, Police/Army/Firemen. Are all just doing their jobs, when you go out of your way when it's not your job and you create some great change. Then your a hero. Until then your nothing to me.

[Sugaree]

READ THE POST AGAIN. OPINIONS like THAT, I did not specify you.

You didn't HAVE to specify him, all you had to say was "opinions like that". The opinion that Tim has reflects from many people inside and outside the country. So saying that the opinions that Tim has (which goes for anyone in the world) will fuck up our country? Let me get the Kleenex so we can just cry it all off.

[The Batman]

I figured when this thread was made that it probably would be moved and lucky me I"m right.
TWPR :arrow: ROTW

[TheKingDavis]

We don't have heroes, FDR was a hero, Black Jack pershing was a hero. All we have is obama, and people who are fighting a useless war. In our history optomism hasn't gotten us anywhere. We need a realist not some silly person who thinks chasing a man with a turban is going to satisfy the country, and the families who have lost. I must state once again, there are no heroes, Police/Army/Firemen. Are all just doing their jobs, when you go out of your way when it's not your job and you create some great change. Then your a hero. Until then your nothing to me.

what kind of fucked up imaginary world do you live in?

[Sage]

Its people with opinions like that, that will fuck up America.

READ THE POST AGAIN. OPINIONS like THAT, I did not specify you.

Its people with opinions like that, that will fuck up America.

READ THE POST AGAIN. OPINIONS like THAT, I did not specify you.

Hrmmm.

[TheKingDavis]

I figured when this thread was made that it probably would be moved and lucky me I"m right.
TWPR :arrow: ROTW

*sigh* we need like an "other" category

TWPR says "let off steam" or something to that effect.

Oh well. thanks mod.

[theOperaGhost]

Dustin first of all I'm going to ask you to calm down and to treat me with the same amount of respect I am treating you.

The only people that fought for my life fought in the revolutionary war, civil war, WWI, WWII and hell I'll say Vietnam. But really this war now is in no way threatening to us at all just because a few psychos jumped on a plane and bombed a building it isn't reason enough to go to war IMO. Real heroes are the ones that try not to use violence to solve the worlds problem anyone can pull the trigger of a gun.

I have to disagree with part of this now....I think the terror attacks are enough to start a war...unfortunately bush must have forgot which country Osama was living in....

[Camazotz]

what kind of fucked up imaginary world do you live in?

Narnia, maybe.

Greg, I admire your strict guidelines on how you define a "hero." While I don't necessarily agree, it's nice to know that your heroes are significantly helped the world.

[Sugaree]

what kind of fucked up imaginary world do you live in?

The world where people don't contradict themselves more than likely. Greg raises a good point. You could consider someone like a fireman or policeman a hero, but they're just doing their job. But when an ordinary person goes out of their way, then that's something. However, one can interpret what their idea of a hero is.

[theOperaGhost]

*sigh* we need like an "other" category

TWPR says "let off steam" or something to that effect.

Oh well. thanks mod.

This has turned into a debate...it belongs here.

[Sage]

what kind of fucked up imaginary world do you live in?

The real one. And yes, as Jared said, this is a debate and probably should've been moved earlier than it was. But that's alright.

[sebbie]

What defines a hero ?

The answer to that question is a tricky one as it all comes down to peoples own opinions and perspectives. You say that a hero is a soldier who is willing to sacrifice their own life for an ideology that they believe in, I would say that in some cases that is correct, but look at the victims of the wars. Can people who inflict that much harm and suffering on others really be heroes ?

[The Batman]

I have to disagree with part of this now....I think the terror attacks are enough to start a war...unfortunately bush must have forgot which country Osama was living in....
TBH I keep forgetting that we even started off looking for him this war has changed directions so many times. First it was the war on terror then the war against the "warheads" in Iraq and then to bring down Saddam Hussein now what is it?

[TheKingDavis]

Narnia, maybe.

Greg, I admire your strict guidelines on how you define a "hero." While I don't necessarily agree, it's nice to know that your heroes are significantly helped the world.

So a policeman who helps take a drunk driver doesnt impact the world?
a drunk who could have killed someone

So a fireman taking a baby out of a burning building doesnt impact the world?

A soldier who saves an Iraqi family from being shot by another iraqi doesnt impact the world?

A doctor who comes up with a new vaccine to save thousands doesnt impact the world?

A teacher who helps educate young ones doesnt impact the world?


When it comes to these heroes doing their JOBS it DOES impact the world.

Saving a life because its your job does make you a hero

When it comes to life and death, it IS the world

[Sage]

A soldier who saves an Iraqi family from being shot by another iraqi doesnt impact the world?

Yeah, them iraqis just love all the stuff we're doing for them. Also, last time I checked, you can't get a degree in Heroism.

[sebbie]

TBH I keep forgetting that we even started off looking for him this war has changed directions so many times. First it was the war on terror then the war against the "warheads" in Iraq and then to bring down Saddam Hussein now what is it?

To be fair when it comes to the war in Iraq, I don't think anyone will really know the cause behind it. It started off with the threat of weapons of mass destruction that we heard so much about. When the UN meetings came about Iraq allowed scientists to look for said weapons and they found nothing.

Then there was the idea it was to liberate the Iraqi people from the tyranny and dictatorship of Saddam Hussein. Did the Iraqi people ask for western intervention ?

I would strongly say that Iraq is worse of now after its so called liberation than when it was under Saddam's rule.

[TheKingDavis]

Yeah, them iraqis just love all the stuff we're doing for them. Also, last time I checked, you can't get a degree in Heroism.

Last time i checked, you cant get a degree for being a smart ass either

[Sage]

Last time i checked, you cant get a degree for being a smart ass either

Actually, you can. It's called writing.

[Rutherford The Brave]

So a policeman who helps take a drunk driver doesnt impact the world?
a drunk who could have killed someone

So a fireman taking a baby out of a burning building doesnt impact the world?

A soldier who saves an Iraqi family from being shot by another iraqi doesnt impact the world?

A doctor who comes up with a new vaccine to save thousands doesnt impact the world?

A teacher who helps educate young ones doesnt impact the world?


When it comes to these heroes doing their JOBS it DOES impact the world.

Saving a life because its your job does make you a hero

When it comes to life and death, it IS the world

No they don't. They are doing their "JOBS" they save one person big whop. FDR, brought the country out of depression. He led the country through the second world war, he brought the country out a hole he is a hero. It wasn't his job to get involved in the war, it wasn't his job to change the economy yet he did. He saved argueablly millions of people. A soldier saves an iraqi family who hates him, does NOT impact the world. Since he shouldn't even be there to begin with. If you save one person what's the odds that they will change the world? Low, if you save millions of people what are the odds that one of those people will have an effect on the world? Alot better. Saving one life as a firefighter is almost normal, but when your a man and you jump off a ledge to save a falling baby, your a hero.

[The Batman]

Can we please not have any insults or anything lets keep this a constructive debate or it'll be locked and infractions given.

[TheKingDavis]

http://i46.tinypic.com/2copfgn.jpg


Yeah, fuck these guys
They arent heroes
theyre just gvnt controlled killing machines
They didnt die fighting for what they believed in
Who cares if they lost their life. we have more willing to lose theirs
They didnt keep me safe, they didnt protect my rights, theyre just a bunch of dead guys


WAKE THE FUCK UP, LIFE IS ONLY ONCE

No they don't. They are doing their "JOBS" they save one person big whop. FDR, brought the country out of depression. He led the country through the second world war, he brought the country out a hole he is a hero. It wasn't his job to get involved in the war, it wasn't his job to change the economy yet he did. He saved argueablly millions of people. A soldier saves an iraqi family who hates him, does NOT impact the world. Since he shouldn't even be there to begin with.

It was in fact FDRs job, he was the PRESIDENT hence, it was his job to lead the nation to prosperity, once again, get out of la la land and into the real world


edit: sorry about the double post mods, i thought someone would have replied by the time i typed that, my bad

Please do not post in red constantly, as that is the most common color with which moderators edit posts. ~Empty Misery

[Sage]

http://i46.tinypic.com/2copfgn.jpg


Yeah, fuck these guys
They arent heroes
theyre just gvnt controlled killing machines
They didnt die fighting for what they believed in
Who cares if they lost their life. we have more willing to lose theirs
They didnt keep me safe, they didnt protect my rights, theyre just a bunch of dead guys


WAKE THE FUCK UP, LIFE IS ONLY ONCE

Way to avoid basing your arguments on emotion there, buddy. Some information on those graves would be nice. Revolutionary, Civil War, WW1, WW2, etc, veterans have all done a great service to their country because... those wars were actually important. Could you please specify the reason behind the wars going on right now and the mission we hope to accomplish by fighting them? To be precise, what are America's goals in these wars and when would you consider said goals to be achieved?

[Rutherford The Brave]

Albert Einstein
He who joyfully marches to music rank and file, has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action. It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.



The men in Iraq haven't done anything for me, the men who died and fought in the pacific and europe deserve all my respect and more.

Edit- It wasn't FDR's job to get involved in European affairs, all of his predisessor's told him to stay out of their affairs. It wasn't his job to order his men to try to save the japanese people who eventually committed suicide. It Wasn't his job to take the econamy and make it better. He could've just let it repair itself. yet he didn't.

[sebbie]

http://i46.tinypic.com/2copfgn.jpg


Yeah, fuck these guys
They arent heroes
theyre just gvnt controlled killing machines
They didnt die fighting for what they believed in
Who cares if they lost their life. we have more willing to lose theirs
They didnt keep me safe, they didnt protect my rights, theyre just a bunch of dead guys


WAKE THE FUCK UP, LIFE IS ONLY ONCE

That is a famous iconic picture which does show the sacrifice of American soldiers, but if you were to google search "War in Iraq" you would see some of the devastation that your current heroes have caused because they are fighting for a cause they believe in.

Yes them people did keep your perceived rights safe, but they would have destroyed someone else's perceived rights in the process.

When it comes to human life, I personally think that all life is precious and casualties of war are a waste.

I really do not know what you are trying to say by your last sentence though "Life is only once" - Do you mean that because we only live once we are entitled to do what we perceive to be heroic ?

[Bougainvillea]

You're acting like none of us give a shit.

YOU wake the fuck up. Just because we don't see a point in the reasons those that died does NOT mean we have no respect. We are grateful as those men did their duty as an american soldier. But we don't have to agree to what they fought for.

[TheKingDavis]

The men in Iraq haven't done anything for me, the men who died and fought in the pacific and europe deserve all my respect and more.

how about you go to an iraq veteran and say that to his face?
Lets see that you dont get knocked the fuck out.

[Sage]

how about you go to an iraq veteran and say that to his face?
Lets see that you dont get knocked the fuck out.

How about you use arguments beyond a 3rd grade level of maturity? Let's hope you don't get ridiculed in the debate forum by people who actually know how to debate. Besides, if a knock-out is what I can expect, then that just proves the point that these guys are simply solving problems through unnecessary violence.

[Rutherford The Brave]

how about you go to an iraq veteran and say that to his face?
Lets see that you dont get knocked the fuck out.

I will, it is my right and if he punches me in the face then so be it. He hasn't done anything and he needs to damn well wake up and see it.

[TheKingDavis]

I really do not know what you are trying to say by your last sentence though "Life is only once" - Do you mean that because we only live once we are entitled to do what we perceive to be heroic ?

I mean, that you only live once, and with their life, they gave it for you.

You're acting like none of us give a shit.

YOU wake the fuck up. Just because we don't see a point in the reasons those that died does NOT mean we have no respect. We are grateful as those men did their duty as an american soldier. But we don't have to agree to what they fought for.

You guys acting like none of you give a shit.

How about showing repect if you respect them?

[Rutherford The Brave]

I don't respect them, didn't you see me post the Einstein quote?

[theOperaGhost]

The men in Iraq haven't done anything for me, the men who died and fought in the pacific and europe deserve all my respect and more.

Edit- It wasn't FDR's job to get involved in European affairs, all of his predisessor's told him to stay out of their affairs. It wasn't his job to order his men to try to save the japanese people who eventually committed suicide. It Wasn't his job to take the econamy and make it better. He could've just let it repair itself. yet he didn't.

What have the veterans of the conflicts fought in the pacific and europe done for you?

[TheKingDavis]

I don't respect them, didn't you see me post the Einstein quote?

No one said that you respected them, you made it pretty obvious that you dont respect them, all i can say, is if you have no respect for the ones keeping you safe, is get out of America, we (TRUE PROUD AMERICANS) dont want you here.

[The Batman]

I've been against this war from the very beginning and really i have a lot of respect for someone that will go off and risk their lives for anything but I don't call them heroes if I don't believe in what they are fighting for.

[sebbie]

I mean, that you only live once, and with their life, they gave it for you.


Thanks for the clarification on that point. So yes they did choose to sacrifice their life for something that they themselves believed in, which in their eyes and people with similar views would seem heroic.

But as has been said earlier different people have different perspectives and opinions. Is a pacifist really going to see a person who chooses a path of violence as a hero?

[Rutherford The Brave]

What have the veterans of the conflicts fought in the pacific and europe done for you?

They protected my family and other families from The Japanese who actually could've destroyed us and The Nazis who also could've destroyed us given the chance.

[Bougainvillea]

I respect them as much as I can without trying to think of the atrocities they've committed, Dustin.

[Rutherford The Brave]

No one said that you respected them, you made it pretty obvious that you dont respect them, all i can say, is if you have no respect for the ones keeping you safe, is get out of America, we (TRUE PROUD AMERICANS) dont want you here.

You as true Americans have been afraid of radical thinkers for years. Just because I have the ability to stand up to a man in uniform and tell him that he hasn't done anything. Does not mean I have to get out of America, I'm just as if not more welcome here than you are.

[The Batman]

No one said that you respected them, you made it pretty obvious that you dont respect them, all i can say, is if you have no respect for the ones keeping you safe, is get out of America, we (TRUE PROUD AMERICANS) dont want you here.

Dude you have no right to tell anyone to get out of america because you don't believe in what they say that's what causes a LOT of problems in this world so I'm asking you to calm down and to not use that tone with anyone here and that goes for everyone treat each other respectfully and if you have a problem with them then take it up privately it does NOT need to be here.

[theOperaGhost]

They protected my family and other families from The Japanese who actually could've destroyed us and The Nazis who also could've destroyed us given the chance.

Osama bin Laden tried to destroy us and was partially successful...He could very easily destroy us if he wanted to...bin Laden is no different than Hitler and his radical followers are no different than the Nazis...they've been compared and they are actually more powerful...they are more widespread and there is that thing called technology helping them.

[TheKingDavis]

Osama bin Laden tried to destroy us and was partially successful...He could very easily destroy us if he wanted to...bin Laden is no different than Hitler and his radical followers are no different than the Nazis...they've been compared and they are actually more powerful...they are more widespread and there is that thing called technology helping them.

Its refreshing that someone has some common sense on here.

[Rutherford The Brave]

Osama bin Laden tried to destroy us and was partially successful...He could very easily destroy us if he wanted to...bin Laden is no different than Hitler and his radical followers are no different than the Nazis...they've been compared and they are actually more powerful...they are more widespread and there is that thing called technology helping them.

True true, but He hasn't got the wepons he said he had. He hasn't got the blank check that Sadam had promised him. Now he's hiding in the mountains. Atleast the Japs, where willing to rather kill themselves than surrender. That is an opponant who could've wiped us out.

[Sage]

No one said that you respected them, you made it pretty obvious that you dont respect them, all i can say, is if you have no respect for the ones keeping you safe, is get out of America, we (TRUE PROUD AMERICANS) dont want you here.

So if you disagree with the war, you're not a true American? How about responding to some of the counter points everyone's raising, Davis? You sure seem to be skipping a lot. You've still not answered my question in asking why our current wars are being fought and when you consider the mission to be "complete".

[Bougainvillea]

No one said that you respected them, you made it pretty obvious that you dont respect them, all i can say, is if you have no respect for the ones keeping you safe, is get out of America, we (TRUE PROUD AMERICANS) dont want you here.

You are not a "true american" if you can tell a fellow american to get out of America because they happen to disagree. Since when have we been that nation? Aren't we supposed to take our fellow bretheren's opinion into respectful consideration?

Apparently its the TRUE PROUD AMERICANS who take part in giving America a bad reputation.

[TheKingDavis]

True true, but He hasn't got the wepons he said he had. He hasn't got the blank check that Sadam had promised him. Now he's hiding in the mountains. Atleast the Japs, where willing to rather kill themselves than surrender. That is an opponant who could've wiped us out.

he did have the weapons, go learn something.

we gave him warning that he had so long before we were coming in there to look around,

to put this more on your level so you can understand better,

here the scenerio
you just bought some weed, you are fixing to smoke it, your mom/dad knocks on the door and says "you have one hour then im coming in there and if i find anything bad, your going to get it" well do you just sit there and say "crap im busted" or do you get rid of it?

obvious answer, you get rid of it.




and yes the US made a very bad decision to warn them thaate were coming

[Sage]

he did have the weapons, go learn something.

Actually, no, he didn't. Also, please respond to all counterpoints.

[TheKingDavis]

You are not a "true american" if you can tell a fellow american to get out of America because they happen to disagree. Since when have we been that nation? Aren't we supposed to take our fellow bretheren's opinion into respectful consideration?

Apparently its the TRUE PROUD AMERICANS who take part in giving America a bad reputation.

the true proud Americans want whats best for America, not to criticize the people who keep us safe

[Rutherford The Brave]

he did have the weapons, go learn something.

we gave him warning that he had so long before we were coming in there to look around,

to put this more on your level so you can understand better,

here the scenerio
you just bought some weed, you are fixing to smoke it, your mom/dad knocks on the door and says "you have one hour then im coming in there and if i find anything bad, your going to get it" well do you just sit there and say "crap im busted" or do you get rid of it?

obvious answer, you get rid of it.




and yes the US made a very bad decision to warn them thaate were coming

Really now? I don't recall there ever being wepons of mass destruction in Iraq. Also if he has wepons why is he running? To answer your question, I tell my dad I have the weed. I tell him that because I'd rather own up to my mistakes then be a two face liar.

They are not keeping me safe, I have nothing to fear. I am one in how many million? It's not like I'm going to be hunted out and killed.

[The Batman]

What's best for america is to quit wasting money on a pointless war. Just saying.

[Sage]

the true proud Americans want whats best for America, not to criticize the people who keep us safe

And of course only people with one narrow viewpoint know that's best, clearly. Also, the whole thing people are trying to get to you is that these people are not keeping us safe because the modern wars are pointless ones.

Respond to all counterpoints, please. They stretch back quite a number of pages.

[TheKingDavis]

Really now? I don't recall there ever being wepons of mass destruction in Iraq. Also if he has wepons why is he running? To answer your question, I tell my dad I have the weed. I tell him that because I'd rather own up to my mistakes then be a two face liar.

you dont recall because they got rid of them,
and i highly doubt you would own up to it,
do you think Osama would own up to it,
if you do... you have some problems

[Sage]

you dont recall because they got rid of them,


No, they never had them. That's a pretty well accepted fact on both sides, liberal and conservative, democrat and republican, left and right.

Respond to all previously stated counterpoints, please.

[sebbie]

he did have the weapons, go learn something.

we gave him warning that he had so long before we were coming in there to look around,

to put this more on your level so you can understand better,

here the scenerio
you just bought some weed, you are fixing to smoke it, your mom/dad knocks on the door and says "you have one hour then im coming in there and if i find anything bad, your going to get it" well do you just sit there and say "crap im busted" or do you get rid of it?

obvious answer, you get rid of it.

and yes the US made a very bad decision to warn them thaate were coming

As far as I am aware, no weapons of mass destruction where found in Iraq till this date. President Bush even admitted that there was an "intelligence failure" when it came to this. Your scenario is very generic and could easily be changed to support this.

[Rutherford The Brave]

you dont recall because they got rid of them,
and i highly doubt you would own up to it,
do you think Osama would own up to it,
if you do... you have some problems

I would own up to it. Mostly because I'm not a pansy like most people are. If I broke a rule in his house, I'd fucking tell him. So His trust in me would'nt be damaged badly. I know he won't own up to it, and I honestly don't care. I can own up to my issues as an adult I can face any and all punishment that is before me. I'll give you a scenario, I got my ex pregnant. Instead of running and hiding because it was too hard, I stood with her. I paid the bills I worked three jobs, I did everything I had to for my daughter and to this day I'm still paying the bills. You want to know why? Because I'm not a little kid anymore, if I break a rule/law I am going to accept my punishment and learn from it

[Bougainvillea]

Do you have any proof to support that, Dustin?

[TheKingDavis]

im taking a break for a bit, my wrists are starting to hurt (i have arthritis in my wrists and my knees and i havent typed this much straight in awhile) but ill be back

once i get tiger balm on my wrists >.>

[The Batman]

you dont recall because they got rid of them,
and i highly doubt you would own up to it,
do you think Osama would own up to it,
if you do... you have some problems

Considering he owned up to bombing us I think he might own up to the bombs.

[Sage]

im taking a break for a bit, my wrists are starting to hurt (i have arthritis in my wrists and my knees and i havent typed this much straight in awhile) but ill be back

once i get tiger balm on my wrists >.>

Respond to all previously mentioned counterpoints and questions against you once you get back, please. Ignoring them only makes your point of view seem less valid.

[TheKingDavis]

Respond to all previously mentioned counterpoints and questions against you once you get back, please. Ignoring them only makes your point of view seem less valid.

Do me a favor please, quote all the ones you want me to respond to, then ill respond to them, it will make it easier on me

[Sage]

Do me a favor please, quote all the ones you want me to respond to, then ill respond to them, it will make it easier on me

One moment then, I'll go through this thread and edit this post in a few minutes.

Edit:

Here you go. If you need to check the context in which a post was made, there's a little button next to the name of who said it. I've also edited these only by highlighting key points in blue.

I was speaking for my country as well as yours, even if we are always very much the junior partners. I take a pride in my country but certainly not an uncritical pride and I have no pride in our recent foreign policy. Explain to me exactly the threat that Iraq posed to America? All those non existent weapons of mass destruction???

When your country really wants to make war on terror and stand up for human rights you will face up to and do something about Israel.

Ha...haha...hahahahahahahaha

You HONESTLY believe that this war has a cause? Wow, aren't you the smart little one. We've been in this war for six years. What's happened other than hundreds of bombings and thousands of our soldiers dead? Tim is from Canada (or Canadia as he calls it), so why would his opinion "fuck up" America? Being a fellow American myself, I don't HAVE to support everything the government does. I have a mind and free will. I can support what I want to.

Don't bring 9/11 into this. You'll only cause a fight. The events proceeding 9/11 and the Vietnam War are NOT one in the same. Comparing the two just does match. The Vietnam War wasn't set off by us, but rather the Vietamese (sp?). Once Communist Russia decended upon North Vietnam, they (North Vietnam) tried to spread it to the South region of the country. It lead to huge disagreements and started a war.

Nixon decided to get the U.S. involved and sent the military to aid the south Vietamese. We got involved in a war that wasn't ours, nor was it MEANT to be ours.

Don't get started on Obama either. He was elected on one word: "Change". People with opinions similar or like Tim's are NOT to blame for Obama's election.

And so what if we draw out of the war? It will only prove that we went in unorginized and witless. Osama won't attack us again. Why would he want to spend so much time planning ANOTHER attack? It took him over a decade to plan the September 11th attacks, so why bother? Even if he does attack, I think we'll be more prepared.

What defines a hero ?

The answer to that question is a tricky one as it all comes down to peoples own opinions and perspectives. You say that a hero is a soldier who is willing to sacrifice their own life for an ideology that they believe in, I would say that in some cases that is correct, but look at the victims of the wars. Can people who inflict that much harm and suffering on others really be heroes ?

Way to avoid basing your arguments on emotion there, buddy. Some information on those graves would be nice. Revolutionary, Civil War, WW1, WW2, etc, veterans have all done a great service to their country because... those wars were actually important. Could you please specify the reason behind the wars going on right now and the mission we hope to accomplish by fighting them? To be precise, what are America's goals in these wars and when would you consider said goals to be achieved?

So if you disagree with the war, you're not a true American? How about responding to some of the counter points everyone's raising, Davis? You sure seem to be skipping a lot. You've still not answered my question in asking why our current wars are being fought and when you consider the mission to be "complete".

No, they never had them. That's a pretty well accepted fact on both sides, liberal and conservative, democrat and republican, left and right.

Respond to all previously stated counterpoints, please.

Do you have any proof to support that, Dustin?

[TheKingDavis]

One moment then, I'll go through this thread and edit this post in a few minutes.

ok, thanks.

[Sage]

There you go. I await your response patiently.

[Rutherford The Brave]

As will I.

[TheKingDavis]

I couldt get the dang things to do quotes, so im going to reply to them in order using 1, 2, 3 etc.

1. Saddam Hussein was the threat at the time, after he was taken care of, more pronlems broke out.

2. yet both wars threaten the safety of the US, my exapmle was how the US failed to continue its support for the war

3. a hero is someone who goes above and beyond the call of duty, if they are threatened by guns, then they have the right to fire back.

4. current goal, peace. we try o leave peacefully. that cant be accomplished until they stop their attacks on our troops, because we will fight back.

5. Not the war itself, the troops, the troops are my main focus right now, i said if you dont support THEM, not the war, them

6 & 7. Because we admitted our failure to find them, that doesnt mean that they werent there, we havent searched every cave n iraq, iran, afganistan, the general public will probably know the real truth, but there is good reason to believe they have them, and also if you looked at the news yesterday (CNN i think) it was either iran or Iraq talking about using nuclear powers again.

Dont get me wrong, we are so advanced that if they fired one at us, we would be able to shoot it down before it hit us, but where does the explosion go? the atmosphere. with that, it would go down to earths surface, effecting our breathing air and our water, which in turn could cause threats to the whole world, this is why nuclear powers are such a bigg deal.





wrist hurts again :(

byw sorry about the explosive discussion earlier, lets all just try to be more calm this time around.

[Rutherford The Brave]

5. Not the war itself, the troops, the troops are my main focus right now, i said if you dont support THEM, not the war, them


That begs the question then, are you saying that people like albert einstein and the people a who are against the army unamerican? Who are you to say that anyhow, your a kid in New Mexico. I may be like Sacco or vanzetti, where I'm a radical but doesn't mean I'm not American. I was born in America, raised in America, I pay American taxes, My ancestors where here before the pilgrims where. I hate the army, I don't condone killing people to call myself a victor, I am a man of peace If I don't win by words then I don't try. I don't need to hide behind guns to call myself strong, I don't need to walk with a big stick. My words are my strength. I'll be America until the day I die, and no one can tell me otherwise.

[2D]

Dustin, just stop while you're only hated by the majority. Your ignorant patriotism is making me question why I stuck up for you.

(I hope I don't come across as this bad when I get pissed. Nyeh.)

[mrmcdonaldduck]

I couldt get the dang things to do quotes, so im going to reply to them in order using 1, 2, 3 etc.

1. Saddam Hussein was the threat at the time, after he was taken care of, more pronlems broke out.

2. yet both wars threaten the safety of the US, my exapmle was how the US failed to continue its support for the war

3. a hero is someone who goes above and beyond the call of duty, if they are threatened by guns, then they have the right to fire back.

4. current goal, peace. we try o leave peacefully. that cant be accomplished until they stop their attacks on our troops, because we will fight back.

5. Not the war itself, the troops, the troops are my main focus right now, i said if you dont support THEM, not the war, them

6 & 7. Because we admitted our failure to find them, that doesnt mean that they werent there, we havent searched every cave n iraq, iran, afganistan, the general public will probably know the real truth, but there is good reason to believe they have them, and also if you looked at the news yesterday (CNN i think) it was either iran or Iraq talking about using nuclear powers again.

Dont get me wrong, we are so advanced that if they fired one at us, we would be able to shoot it down before it hit us, but where does the explosion go? the atmosphere. with that, it would go down to earths surface, effecting our breathing air and our water, which in turn could cause threats to the whole world, this is why nuclear powers are such a bigg deal.





wrist hurts again :(

byw sorry about the explosive discussion earlier, lets all just try to be more calm this time around.


i see nothing there on isreal.

Look, i have absolutley no prob with the soldiers in iraq/ afghanistan, it wasnt there fault that an idiot thought that invading a country was the best option BEFORE any sort of diplomacy.

what about those "terrorists" that will bomb an occupying force? are they really "terrorists"? or are they people that just want us to get out so they can clean up the mess that we made.

Every day we stay, there is a higher chance of the west being attacked. and staying there now also causes many "terrorists" to come and attack us.

indeed america has heroes, every soldier is. But both Bushes managed to turn the arab world against america and make the west think less of america.

Really dustin, can you tell me that by staying in iraq we are doing anything but breeding more hate for america.

And please tell me what is wrong with a country developing nuclear power or weapons? is it that you are afraid of someone else having them? if russia was developing a new warhead, would you complain? russia has nukes, more then america so, i know i would shut up.

(i am saying this from an aussie point of view).

[BuryYourFlame]

4. current goal, peace. we try o leave peacefully. that cant be accomplished until they stop their attacks on our troops, because we will fight back.

Enlighten me as to why getting out of there wouldn't work? At the moment, it would seem like they are attacking you for being there. Simple solution...they get outa there...the Arabs stop attacking. Or are those who support the war so focussed on an 'eye for an eye' that they want to make sure they do some more damage?

[theOperaGhost]

Dustin, just stop while you're only hated by the majority. Your ignorant patriotism is making me question why I stuck up for you.

(I hope I don't come across as this bad when I get pissed. Nyeh.)

Agreed...I was on your side of the debate, but you are even more far right than I am....that's just insane. You are not putting up a good debate and then when you tell someone to get the fuck out of our country...it just ruins it for me.

[TheKingDavis]

Agreed...I was on your side of the debate, but you are even more far right than I am....that's just insane. You are not putting up a good debate and then when you tell someone to get the fuck out of our country...it just ruins it for me.

Its a simple as "If you dont want to be here, you dont have to be" there are other countries out there that would love to have you (you lose your freedoms, but hey its gotta be better than the war ridden US right?)

[sebbie]

Its a simple as "If you dont want to be here, you dont have to be" there are other countries out there that would love to have you (you lose your freedoms, but hey its gotta be better than the war ridden US right?)

People are not saying that they do not want to be in America, just that they do not agree with the war, whether soldiers are heroes and the other points raised in this thread.

Yes they are welcome to leave America but surely they also have the freedom to stay and disagree. They would be using the very right that your so called heroes have fought to create and defend.

[TheKingDavis]

Kind of not related and related at the same time

A lesson that should be taught in all schools . . And colleges

Back in September, on the first day of school, Martha Cothren, a social studies school teacher at Robinson High School, did something not to be forgotten. On the first day of school, with the permission of the school superintendent, the principal and the building supervisor, she removed all of the desks out of her classroom.

When the first period kids entered the room they discovered that there were no desks.

'Ms.. Cothren, where're our desks?'

She replied, 'You can't have a desk until you tell me how you earn the right to sit at a desk.'

They thought, 'Well, maybe it's our grades.'

'No,' she said.

'Maybe it's our behavior.'

She told them, 'No, it's not even your behavior.'

And so, they came and went, the first period, second period, third period. Still no desks in the classroom.

By early afternoon television news crews had started gathering in Ms.Cothren's classroom to report about this crazy teacher who had taken all the desks out of her room.

The final period of the day came and as the puzzled students found seats on the floor of the deskless classroom, Martha Cothren said, 'Throughout the day no one has been able to tell me just what he/she has done to earn the right to sit at the desks that are ordinarily found in this classroom. Now I am going to tell you.'

At this point, Martha Cothren went over to the door of her classroom and opened it.

Twenty-seven (27) War Veterans, all in uniforms, walked into that classroom, each one carrying a school desk. The Vets began placing the school desks in rows, and then they would walk over and stand alongside the wall... By the time the last soldier had set the final desk in place those kids started to understand, perhaps for the first time in their lives, just how the right to sit at those desks had been earned..

Martha said, 'You didn't earn the right to sit at these desks. These heroes did it for you. They placed the desks here for you. Now, it's up to you to sit in them. It is your responsibility to learn, to be good students, to be good citizens. They paid the price so that you could have the freedom to get an education. Don't ever forget it.'

By the way, this is a true story.

[Bougainvillea]

Martha said, 'You didn't earn the right to sit at these desks. These heroes did it for you. They placed the desks here for you. Now, it's up to you to sit in them. It is your responsibility to learn, to be good students, to be good citizens. They paid the price so that you could have the freedom to get an education. Don't ever forget it.'

That will still be counted as a matter of opinion.

[Rutherford The Brave]

Martha said, 'You didn't earn the right to sit at these desks. These heroes did it for you. They placed the desks here for you. Now, it's up to you to sit in them. It is your responsibility to learn, to be good students, to be good citizens. They paid the price so that you could have the freedom to get an education. Don't ever forget it.'

I'd in the desk, because it's my right as an American to learn and speak out against what I think is wrong. It's my right to get a good education, without anyone stopping me. I'd plant myself right in that desk, and tell the teacher to get on with the fucking lesson and stop bullshitting me.

[Bougainvillea]

I'd in the desk, because it's my right as an American to learn and speak out against what I think is wrong. It's my right to get a good education, without anyone stopping me. I'd plant myself right in that desk, and tell the teacher to get on with the fucking lesson and stop bullshitting me.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Ocean Challenger again.

Yeah. This what I was kind of thinking.

[Rutherford The Brave]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Ocean Challenger again.

Yeah. This what I was kind of thinking.

hehehe I can wait.

I'm never going to live my life in the shadows of American soldiers. Always giving up my time to thank them. I'm going to live my life, I'm going to speak my mind, and just because I don't respect the army doesn't mean I am not entitled to the things they fought for. I could hate the army over a stupid reason such as the battle of wounded knee. However I do not, I dislike them because it's so stupid to walk into that country and try to "Liberate" a country that doesn't want us there. We are doing the exact same thing we did to the phillipines, we got rid of their leader but we are like "Oh well your not ready to govern yourself with our help." Then we sit there and wonder, why the fuck are they attacking us?

[Kaleidoscope Eyes]

I don't know, I see a lot of disrespect for the military, not just in this thread but also in general, because of the war. I know that's not the argument at hand right now, but I saw it presented farther back and finally decided to say something in response.

What I think people forget to take into consideration, is that your average soldier is not the one who makes the decision for the country to go to war. they didn't decide that, don't blame them because you feel that the war is a mistake.

I don't agree with war at all, really, but I have a lot of respect for the soldiers who volunteer to do those jobs, who will risk their lives so that civilians don't have to be drafted. If we did't have a strong enough standing army, didn't have enough manpower, we might not have gotten rid of the draft when we did; maybe we'd need it. These soldiers are fighting so that you don't have to, and because they actually want to be involved. And that much, I can respect.

Also, I don't see why this debate even started. I think Lawrence just originally misread the post saying that it was for a competition, and the topic at hand was Veterans of Foreign Wars. Thus, the veterans were the only heroes mentioned. It wasn't heroes in general, it was veterans. I didn't bother with the link, maybe I should have. Maybe I'm missing something by not having done that. There is something to be said for recognizing other types of heroes, but I don't think Dustin intentionally left them out--they simply weren't related to the prompt.

[TheKingDavis]

There is something to be said for recognizing other types of heroes, but I don't think Dustin intentionally left them out--they simply weren't related to the prompt.

Finally someone understands. :D thanks

[theOperaGhost]

Here's a good example of a hero in my opinion:

A few years ago you probably heard about the gunman in a Las Vegas casino, right? Well, the guy who tackled the gunman and saved how many lives was a national guard soldier from my hometown. I actually know him fairly well.

Anyway, what makes him a hero? He risked his life to save who knows how many lives that day. Of course it was his national guard training that made his response instinct...most people would have simply fled the situation.

This is the kind of person that is a hero to me. And yes, that DOES include police, firemen, soldiers, etc. Anyone who risks their lives to save many others.

Does a hero have to risk their own life though? No, I don't think so. I think volunteers on some level are heroes as well. I also think doctors and health care workers are heroes too.