Communism

[Bobby]

My social studies teacher says that Dictatorship and Communism next to eachother are very similiar. And monarchy is a type of govwernment. And I don't think communism is fair at all

[kolte]

My social studies teacher says that Dictatorship and Communism next to eachother are very similiar. And monarchy is a type of govwernment. And I don't think communism is fair at all

well then you don't understand communism.
its based on fairness.
thats what its all about.
its completly equal.
Dictatorships are completly unequal,

[Bobby]

I think it's unfair..... If you have a problem with my opinion... well too bad.

[Ravenous]

Your social studys teacher is wrong then, Dictatorship and Communism are very different..
Yeah the whole point of communism is that is is fair. Thats what it is based on, but it is too fair. It just doesn't work.
Well your opinion is completely wrong then. No matter what you think, communism is fair. That is just exactly what it is.

[kolte]

its not an opinionated statement.
its a fact.
communism is fair.
and thats why it fails.

[Bobby]

Dude it might be in many people's opinion that communism is fair... but you know what....... That's not my opinion. Get over it.. You can have your opinion

p.s. Just for you i'll tell my S.S. that she's and idiot.

[kolte]

its not an opionion dude....
what dont you understand about that.
thats like saying black is white.
its a fact that black is black.
and its a fact that communmism is fair.
do a bit of study and learn about what communism means.
and get back to me.
but don't argue someting you don't understand.

[Ravenous]

Your not listening... :roll:
This is not opinion, it is fact. Communism IS fair, it is completely fair which is why it didn't work. (Sorry to echo Kolte but this needs to be said..)
Good you should tell your Social Studys teacher she sucks if she is teaching you that democracy and communism are similar.
Edit: Gah people keep posting while I am writing messages :| Sorry to restate points that have been said.

[Bobby]

"Communism refers to a conjectured future classless, stateless social organization based upon common ownership (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_ownership) of the means of production (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Means_of_production), and can be classified as a branch of the broader socialist movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism)"- Wikipedia
What makes it fair... the fact that there are no classes?? i that's unfair.

[kolte]

sorry in advance.

YOU DUMBFUCK!
communism is a form of government in which everybody owns everthing.
all property is shared by the people.
all food is rationed evenly thouout the country.
its self sustaining.
everyone reaps the benifits.
everyone works for the benifits.
everyone is equal.
nobody is rich.
nobody is poor.
nobody is denied there fundemenal communist rights.
stop saying its not fair.
it is the apidimy of fair.
Jesus fucking Christ.

[Bobby]

I don't care what you call me, it's okay.

Let's get this straight..... I don't think it's fair that everyone owns everything.. People should own somethings to themselves.

I don't care is 99.9999999999999999999999999% of the world thinks it's fair.
I am the.0000000000000000000000001% that doesn't thinks it's fair

Now tell me if I'm wrong... I'm alowed to speak what I think. and Have my opinion.; You are to. If you don't like my opinion then tooooooo bad. You have yours I have mine. That's the way life works... Sorry

[Ravenous]

Oh my god, you still don't get it. IT IS NOT ABOUT OPINION, IT IS FACT, COMMUNISM IS FAIR.
If you believe that it isn't, YOU ARE WRONG.
You have no idea what you are on about so quit talking out your arse.

[kolte]

...............opionion = A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof
...............fact = Knowledge or information based on real occurrences

your opionion is errelevent when it comes to the FACT FACT FACT FACT that communism is equal, based on fairness.
a fact cannot be argued.
so stop arguing one.

[Bobby]

Okay I realize that communism is meant to be fair. but in my opinion I do not think it's fair. And i'm sorry that I have an opinion. But those are my rights. I am very strong opinionated. So lets stop this fight and let this get back on topic.

[kolte]

someobody needs to hit you with a stick.
because your so narrow minded right now.
but meh, if you refuse to learn, and would rather stick to a FALSE opionion based on nothing.
thats fine.
the rest of the world will live with factual information gathered from Dr's and examples.

[Bobby]

Not everyone thinks that communism is fair...... most do... but a few don't.... Don't post anymore about this whole communism thing.... and I hope i get hit by a stick.

[kolte]

it doenst matter if you don't think its fair.
if people don't think its fair then thats fine.
however, the fact remains that it doesnt get more fair then communism.
communism was created because its equal beyond any other form of government there is.
and its fair.
thats what it is.
if communism was a word not a governmnet type.
it would mean fair.
commune means a community, based on equality, were everyone shares.
ITS FAIR.
period.
and thats fact.
not opionion.

[Bobby]

Ohhh shut up....... I don't care I have an opinion and i don't care what the hell you think ... so get over and go cry to your mommy "Online kid has opinion, whaaaaaaahhhhhhhh!!!!! Boo who????? I have an opinion, If you don't like me having an opinion. then go ask the president to take that outy of our rites.

[kolte]

dude you totally miscomprehend this entire argument.
no matter what I say you will not quite comprehend that I'm not arguing for communism.
I hate communism.
it doesnt work.
it inslaves the people.
it doesant even allow an economy.
because the government owns everthing.
so no, its not good.
but fair.
you don't get more fair.
you have no idea what you are even arguing about.

[Bobby]

That your saying I can't have an opinion..... I realize your not fighting for communism.

[kolte]

I don't give a fuck that you have an opionion.
you know what debate means.
two parties argue two different opionions.
however in this case, you are arguing something that is not an opionion but a fact.
its a fact that communism means equailty, a fairness.
thats what it means.
nice means being kind to sombody.
thats a fact.
to say that "no it doesnt it means being mean to sombody"
that makes not since, it means this.
and you say, its my opionion.
well your opionion is wrong.
communism means equaility, fairness.
just like nice means being kind to sombody.

[Bobby]

Okay..... I know what it means.. in not dumb.... It means to be fair. But i don't think it is fair. Yes it's a fact that it means fairness. But it's not a fact that when actually put to work it is fair.......

[kolte]

when put into effect it is fair.
it worked just like they said it would.
they don't have variety.
but fairness is all they had.

[Bobby]

What ever.. I don't care..... You obviously think different than me.... Communism isn't right in my opinion.... it's meant to .. but i don't feel it is.
Don't respond saying 'you can't have an opinion... it's facts."

[kolte]

communism isnt right.
nobodies debating that.
and if you cant cope when sombody challenges your opionion.
what the fuck are you doing in a debate?

[Bobby]

You're not challenging my opinion. Your trying to tell me that I shouldn;t have one. To let you know, i'm in 8th grade, and 4 teachers recomended me for high schooll debate. You are being mean and inconsiderate.

[Whisper]

You're not challenging my opinion. Your trying to tell me that I shouldn;t have one. To let you know, i'm in 8th grade, and 4 teachers recomended me for high schooll debate. You are being mean and inconsiderate.

Thats just kolte
ignore him
he's an ass to everybody


Oh and to clear it up my basketball friend communism dosent mean fair
you know it doesn't so don't let him push you into saying it does
communism means ur a slave
you do exactly what the government wants
exactly when it wants it
it gives you exactly what it wants to
exactly when it wants to give you it
if you resist then your takin away during the middle of the night by secret police and new people are given your home

kolte i find it fuckin hillarious that in the WPR your yelling at us because a lil self inflicted scratch on the arm is discracing the thousands that died for our countries
and here you are
defending communism
your pathedic

[Ravenous]

You're not challenging my opinion. Your trying to tell me that I shouldn;t have one. To let you know, i'm in 8th grade, and 4 teachers recomended me for high schooll debate. You are being mean and inconsiderate.
Then your school must have the worst debators ever because you really suck.
I don't care what your opinion is, it is wrong, I know that even if you can't get your head round it.
What your doing is like trying to say that you don't think dogs exist. They do, it is a fact. If you don't believe dogs exist, you are wrong. It is the same with Communism, it is built around fairness and thats what it is. If you don't believe that, you are wrong.

[kolte]

Your even more ignorant then I thought you were cody if you really think that I'm defending communism.

Dude I want you to have an opionion.
I understand what your saying.
but you have to reolize your choice of words here.
is communism right? no
is communism good? no
but is communism fair? yes it is
Lets take a look at what Marx, the founder of communism was trying to do.

In our society there are three classes.
the upper class, the middle class, and the lower class.
the lower class take the janitor jobs, the waiters, the bus boys, the fruit pickers(?) and the hard, nobody else wants it jobs.
the middle class takes the factory jobs, the truckers, the plumbers, the nurses, the capenters, the machanics.
the upper class are the bosses, the Dr's, the CEO's, the chairmen, the big bucks, big business jobs.

this economy commenly fournd in democratic societies, has been shown the be the most sucessful.
but before democrlocy there was the monarch, the dictator.
and there were only the rich.
and the poor.
democrocy is one, very good way to balence the economy.

communism wasnt developed by a bad person.
it wasnt created to enslave people and it wasnt created to hurt people, allthough the outcome did cause very bad effects.
communism was created to bring all people to one level.
it was created so that everyone was one class and everyone shared everything.
the food that everyone produced was to be distriputed evenly threwout the land.
the goods everyone made were to be distribted evenly threwout the land.
all the people worked for a central government.
and, in theory, it was good, equal, fair.

When the USSR adopted communism, and the years passed, democratic nations saw the horror of communism.
while democrocies targeted freedom for the individual.
communisits had no individuality.
the people were all fair and equal yes, but a the cost of there soul.
they worked laboriously and got little for themselves.
communism spread across asia and to other small countries across the glob.
the United states and other democratic nations, saw that communism was a threat to there own people,
and today, communism is a very controlled and untreatening thing.

china, north korea, cuba, and a few lesser known countries still pratice this forum of government.
but its much more laxed, even though it still should be brought down, and the world should be made democratic, we have to give these countries time to evolve.
given time, they will become more democratic.

is communism right? no
is communism good? no
but is communism fair? yes it is
but maybe in being fair, it strips us of our very right to be what we want to be.
it takes our freedom of choice.
and that, that is why you don't think its fair.
but in essence, its not right, but it is fair.

[redcar]

okie dokie i am just going to give my little opinion on the whole communism jazz! i think its a brilliant idea, one of the best, in theory only. in relaity its a system that can never work. there have been many countries that have attempted to adopt the communism ideology but have not been very succesful.

the reason i feel for its constant failure is us as a race. when we have a single communist party et cetra, human instinct will take over and somone will strive to become the best, people dont like just to be the same, equals. everyone wants to be different and some want to stand out and be above everyone else. thats why the system of everyone being the same cant work.

sorry if i have just repeated what anyone else has said its just i saw a nice beg arguement going on so i thought i would just say what i had to say!:D

[rEpReSsIoN.?]

It is said that communism never worked people the Russians who helped create all the other communist governments where not educated enough to use it properly (the Russians where not stupid! They just did not have right philosophy to use it). Also there are many different types of communism so it can not all be branded.

[kolte]

It is said that communism never worked people the Russians who helped create all the other communist governments where not educated enough to use it properly (the Russians where not stupid! They just did not have right philosophy to use it). Also there are many different types of communism so it can not all be branded.

dude, all communism, no matter what form........is bad, wrong, evil.
it takes away freedom of choice.
and its is BAD WRONG

[Elscire]

well, china still has its communism, what can we do?

[kolte]

we can do very little.
china is a country with over a billion people.
and a very large very influencial, very power government.
we can only try to spead the democratic ideals to every corner of the world.
we can try and insure commerce and peace by setting goals and reaching them.
but first we must secure our future.
the american economy is at stake.
and we have some hard times ahead.
we have to stive for understanding over being understood.

[rEpReSsIoN.?]

dude, all communism, no matter what form........is bad, wrong, evil.
it takes away freedom of choice.
and its is BAD WRONG

that does not answer 'It is said that communism never worked people the Russians who helped create all the other communist governments where not educated enough to use it properly (the Russians where not stupid! They just did not have right philosophy to use it).' it is not evil it has just been corrupted and propaganda has been used to by the western world (e.g. America, UK ect.) to make it seem like a treat which it never was unless it was Stalinism which was the theroy which Stalin made.

[kolte]

Communism does not allow freedom of choice.
China, North Korea, Vietnam, Laos, and Cuba are the only communist countries in the world today.

the GDP per capita of China is: 6,200
the GDP per capita of Cuba is: 3,300
the GDP per capita of Vietnam is: 3,000
and the GDP per capita of Laos is: 1,900

compare that the the United States with a GDP PC of 42,000
and the UK with a GDP PC of 30,900
and Japan with 30,700
Hell, Burmuda has a GDP PC of 69,900

Democrcy works.
from the tiny island of bermuda to the massive United States to the densely populated japan.

China is an arising market true
but only because its adopting democratic means to reach this market.
the Chinese don't vote.
they have no say in what happens in there government.

Cubans are assigned jobs, they dont get to pick there own jobs themselves.
They flea from there country in fear by getting on rafts and crossing oceans.

Laos and Vietnam are some of the poorest and most rural countries in the world.

what is wrong with you man.
you want people to be numbers.
in a society that starves and hurts and labors.
communism is an idea only.
but when off the paper, and in the country.
its sick.

[rEpReSsIoN.?]

Ok I will teach you something... Stalin did not use communism properly and made it a dictatorship which communism is not suppose to be, he also helped set up all the other communist governments around the world- they are Stalinists. There are communist parties that believe in different things so don't judge a book by its cover- just because its communist does not mean it is going to be a dictatorship or is going to treat people badly... god you have been looking at too much western propaganda.

[kolte]

I don't look at "western propaganda" nor do I look at "eastern propaganda". I look at something, stright up, with my own eyes and come to my own conclusion.
thats called being an individual.
independent reseach.
something communism doesnt allow.
if you read anything in this thread, which I doubt you did, you would not have jumped right in and started bitchen if you knew that we had allready you could say, touched to subject at great lengths.
Communism is a good Idea.
whos arguing that?
Communism is fair, yes.
its equal, my god what could go wrong.
Individuality? they don't really have that in communism.
the entrepreneur? does he have a place in communism.
a free markent economy?
fuck....voting.
communism is evil, there is no way you will change my mind why?
because i am an individualist.
I love a market economy.
i want to be an entrepreneur someday.
I love to vote!
all in favor of communism sucking do this:

~DEMOCROY~

so yeah, I love democrocy, and all of its freedoms.
its stiving for the individual.
so piss off with your currupt communist ideals.

[rEpReSsIoN.?]

Who says communism can not be a democracy? No one except those who don't understand it.
And yes I did look up communism ages before this, it is one of my political favourites
Plus I'm not bitching.
I think it is you who needs to look into communism a lot more you have all the facts and history but you know little about true communist theory, for then you know that communist are not necessarily upset by a big orange 'democroy'.

[kolte]

ommm, well, at least americans say communism cant be democrocy, seeing as how we will never vote for it.

[rEpReSsIoN.?]

That's very stereotypical and no one votes for it over here and I don't believe in communist parties in the uk because i don't agree with some of there views.
I bet people like communism in America.
And it can be a democracy of course it can look it up.

[kolte]

your right.
all four communisnt americans.
besides that, I dare anyone to run for the communist party.
you won't win.
because americans don't like communism.
its not a sterotype.
its the truth.
we will never vote for a communist leader.

[rEpReSsIoN.?]

People look for simple answers why will they not look to communsim. Like people look to far right parties in the uk when the centre and main parties fail on policies about immagration and such.

[kolte]

Dude, I have looked at communism.
I've studied it, from many angles.
I'M STILL PRO DEMOCROCY.
Communism wants to make me proletariat, a class were everyone lives entirely from the sale of its labor and does not draw profit from any kind of capital; whose weal and woe, whoes life and death, whose sole existence depends on the demand of labor. Bring everyone down and up to one level. A working, slaving machine. It looks great on paper. Everyone will be equal, everyone will be the same. but at what fucking cost?

[rEpReSsIoN.?]

Communism can be a democracy!!!!!
And who knows diffrent types of communism can create a diffrent aspect of it have you look at all the communist parties and there views.

[Whisper]

yea democracy rules!!

[kolte]

"Communism is a society without money, without a state, without property and without social classes. People come together to carry out a project or to respond to some need of the human community but without the possibility of their collective activity taking the form of an enterprise that involves wages and the exchange of its products. The circulation of goods is not accomplished by means of exchange: quite the contrary, the by-word for this society is "from each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs".

You know what, that would be great if thats what I liked.
But I like to give money in exchange for what I want.
communism says stright up, "to each according to there needs"
but what about my wants.
what about the car I want.
or the house I want.
or the cloths I want.
communism is evil!

[rEpReSsIoN.?]

This forum is not a democracy tones of people get blocked for just debating (just thought i point that out). And have you looked at other types of communism apart from stalinism.

[kolte]

who gets blocked for just debating.
I have never, nor do I have the power, to block people.
I don't think anyone has ever been 'blocked, frozen for banned for 'debating'
we have reasons that are valid for taking action against a member should we have to.
plus, this is a site, not a government.

I have looked at many different forums of communism.
marxism i have studied a lot.

just talking to you I've researched the following sites

http://www.geocities.com/~johngray/
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0813068.html]
http://www.essayworld.com/essays/govt/246.shtml

after all that.
I still am a democrocy loving, anit communist.

[rEpReSsIoN.?]

No but people always get frozen in the debate forum for what they belive is controversial, and you just treatened me that you will report me for wat talking about communism... oh dear.
And have you looked at diffrent polictical parties and there communsit views.

[kolte]

who are all these people getting frozen or banned for there opionion.
nobody has ever been frozen or banned for there opionion.
people get warned when they don't stay on topic.
spam.
or break another rule found in the virtual teen rulebook.

http://www.cpusa.org/

^^^^ I still don't like them
They still have ideals I don't agree with.

[rEpReSsIoN.?]

One i was not going off topic on the other thread.
And why as i go through the debate forum do i see tones on people frozen or banned, i think there is a minority on this forum who if an opinion does not suit them they ban/freeze them. And i think you can't easily accept others opinions on things you don't agree. But as you said naughty, naughty let's not go off topic. (edit: I apologize to you I was out of order)
Thats only one type of communism there are loads of diffrent kinds.

[kolte]

those people were not banned or frozen in the debate forum.
they were banned or frozen for many differnt reasons.
none of which, i might add, had anything to do with the debates.
it was more likely a matter in a different part of the site.
resolved by admins.
I cant bann you or freeze you.
I can only tell an admin that you have done something wrong.
and leave it up to them to make the appropriote punishment.
weather that be punishing me for failure to resolve something.
or punishing you for failure to listen.

But all that aside..........
if you would like, please, give me a link to a website or the name of a book or any bit of resource you think will help me understand your side?

[Whisper]

http://www.communist-party.ca/

bahahahahahahaha -laughs at crappy site-

communism sucks
if you like it power to ya
go live in Russia

[rEpReSsIoN.?]

Russia is no longer commmunist. And i am not communist. Communism is crap...only because it only did'nt work first time i blame Stalin. I would not like to live in a communist country don't make me!!!

[kolte]

Russia is no longer commmunist. And i am not communist. Communism is crap...only because it only did'nt work first time i blame stalin.

What are you arguing then?????
I don't understand you at all?????
your saying communsim is good.
then your saying communism is crap.
good lord, what are you trying to prove?

[rEpReSsIoN.?]

I stand up for things which people are just poking at wihout understanding it properly and are just seeing a one sided point of view e.g. saying communism can not be a democracy, and i said 'Communism is crap...only because it only did'nt work first time i blame stalin' it was all because of stalin that people will never vote it into goverment. I think communism i great idea but i would never vote for it because the uk has bad communist party policies and the communist parties are too small.

[Bobby]

What do you mean by the U.K. is not big enough........ just because the country is small doesn't mean they have a bad government... The U.k. is strong I think. And someone can't have communism policies... they choose a form and they go for it. If it's different then it's not communism.

[kolte]

I stand up for things which people are just poking at wihout understanding it properly and are just seeing a one sided point of view e.g. saying communism can not be a democracy, and i said 'Communism is crap...only because it only did'nt work first time i blame stalin' it was all because of stalin that people will never vote it into goverment. I think communism i great idea but i would never vote for it because the uk has bad communist party policies and they are too small.

have you read any single post that was made at the start of this tread...........
you have no idea dude.

the following are statements made by me at the start of this tread:

well then you don't understand communism.
its based on fairness.
thats what its all about.
its completly equal.
Dictatorships are completly unequal,

communism is a form of government in which everybody owns everthing.
all property is shared by the people.
all food is rationed evenly thouout the country.
its self sustaining.
everyone reaps the benifits.
everyone works for the benifits.
everyone is equal.
nobody is rich.
nobody is poor.
nobody is denied there fundemenal communist rights.
stop saying its not fair.
it is the apidimy of fair.

when put into effect it is fair.
it worked just like they said it would.
they don't have variety.
but fairness is all they had.

Dude I want you to have an opionion.
I understand what your saying.
but you have to reolize your choice of words here.
is communism right? no
is communism good? no
but is communism fair? yes it is
Lets take a look at what Marx, the founder of communism was trying to do.

In our society there are three classes.
the upper class, the middle class, and the lower class.
the lower class take the janitor jobs, the waiters, the bus boys, the fruit pickers(?) and the hard, nobody else wants it jobs.
the middle class takes the factory jobs, the truckers, the plumbers, the nurses, the capenters, the machanics.
the upper class are the bosses, the Dr's, the CEO's, the chairmen, the big bucks, big business jobs.

this economy commenly fournd in democratic societies, has been shown the be the most sucessful.
but before democrlocy there was the monarch, the dictator.
and there were only the rich.
and the poor.
democrocy is one, very good way to balence the economy.

communism wasnt developed by a bad person.
it wasnt created to enslave people and it wasnt created to hurt people, allthough the outcome did cause very bad effects.
communism was created to bring all people to one level.
it was created so that everyone was one class and everyone shared everything.
the food that everyone produced was to be distriputed evenly threwout the land.
the goods everyone made were to be distribted evenly threwout the land.
all the people worked for a central government.
and, in theory, it was good, equal, fair.

When the USSR adopted communism, and the years passed, democratic nations saw the horror of communism.
while democrocies targeted freedom for the individual.
communisits had no individuality.
the people were all fair and equal yes, but a the cost of there soul.
they worked laboriously and got little for themselves.
communism spread across asia and to other small countries across the glob.
the United states and other democratic nations, saw that communism was a threat to there own people,
and today, communism is a very controlled and untreatening thing.

china, north korea, cuba, and a few lesser known countries still pratice this forum of government.
but its much more laxed, even though it still should be brought down, and the world should be made democratic, we have to give these countries time to evolve.
given time, they will become more democratic.

is communism right? no
is communism good? no
but is communism fair? yes it is
but maybe in being fair, it strips us of our very right to be what we want to be.
it takes our freedom of choice.
and that, that is why you don't think its fair.
but in essence, its not right, but it is fair.

[rEpReSsIoN.?]

'I think communism i great idea but i would never vote for it because the uk has bad communist party policies and they are too small.' I'm talking about the communist party in the UK sorry i should of made it more clear. And there is diffrent forms of communism like Stainlism and Trotskyism.

[rEpReSsIoN.?]

have you read any single post that was made at the start of this tread...........
you have no idea dude.

the following are statements made by me at the start of this tread:

well then you don't understand communism.
its based on fairness.
thats what its all about.
its completly equal.
Dictatorships are completly unequal,

communism is a form of government in which everybody owns everthing.
all property is shared by the people.
all food is rationed evenly thouout the country.
its self sustaining.
everyone reaps the benifits.
everyone works for the benifits.
everyone is equal.
nobody is rich.
nobody is poor.
nobody is denied there fundemenal communist rights.
stop saying its not fair.
it is the apidimy of fair.

when put into effect it is fair.
it worked just like they said it would.
they don't have variety.
but fairness is all they had.

Dude I want you to have an opionion.
I understand what your saying.
but you have to reolize your choice of words here.
is communism right? no
is communism good? no
but is communism fair? yes it is
Lets take a look at what Marx, the founder of communism was trying to do.

In our society there are three classes.
the upper class, the middle class, and the lower class.
the lower class take the janitor jobs, the waiters, the bus boys, the fruit pickers(?) and the hard, nobody else wants it jobs.
the middle class takes the factory jobs, the truckers, the plumbers, the nurses, the capenters, the machanics.
the upper class are the bosses, the Dr's, the CEO's, the chairmen, the big bucks, big business jobs.

this economy commenly fournd in democratic societies, has been shown the be the most sucessful.
but before democrlocy there was the monarch, the dictator.
and there were only the rich.
and the poor.
democrocy is one, very good way to balence the economy.

communism wasnt developed by a bad person.
it wasnt created to enslave people and it wasnt created to hurt people, allthough the outcome did cause very bad effects.
communism was created to bring all people to one level.
it was created so that everyone was one class and everyone shared everything.
the food that everyone produced was to be distriputed evenly threwout the land.
the goods everyone made were to be distribted evenly threwout the land.
all the people worked for a central government.
and, in theory, it was good, equal, fair.

When the USSR adopted communism, and the years passed, democratic nations saw the horror of communism.
while democrocies targeted freedom for the individual.
communisits had no individuality.
the people were all fair and equal yes, but a the cost of there soul.
they worked laboriously and got little for themselves.
communism spread across asia and to other small countries across the glob.
the United states and other democratic nations, saw that communism was a threat to there own people,
and today, communism is a very controlled and untreatening thing.

china, north korea, cuba, and a few lesser known countries still pratice this forum of government.
but its much more laxed, even though it still should be brought down, and the world should be made democratic, we have to give these countries time to evolve.
given time, they will become more democratic.

is communism right? no
is communism good? no
but is communism fair? yes it is
but maybe in being fair, it strips us of our very right to be what we want to be.
it takes our freedom of choice.
and that, that is why you don't think its fair.
but in essence, its not right, but it is fair.






And what is all that surpose to prove?

[kolte]

but do you see where I'm getting here.

I think that the theory of communism is good.
but I think that when put into effect communism is fundementally bad.
this is because I like the concept of money.
I like the concept of getting as much as you personally work for.
I like the concept of individuality.

communism has no money.
you get what you need
and your just a number.

[rEpReSsIoN.?]

Communism was corruped by Stalin he made communism a dictatorship. You have equal opptunities to everyone else you are equal not like todays goverment. And i agree with you on the most part about being treated like a number.
We will never really agree on anything to do with communism. I think i going to back down from this debate i'm not getting anywhere.

[Bobby]

Your not supposed to agree in a debate

[rEpReSsIoN.?]

I like peace.
No im getting a point of view across to get people a wider view to things like communism. Also im not communist nor will i every be hopefully, i just like the theroy of communism. (I like buddist things so i follow the 'The Noble Eightfold Path-Right View' so i like to seek a balanced view to things which will hopefully be the right view -maybe not)

[Bobby]

Well i consider someone who likes the theory of communism a communist.... And debates are vicous, so if you like peace i sugggest you don't come in the debate forum.

[rEpReSsIoN.?]

Lol can't there be a middle ground i like dabating aswel but when i can get a point across. And I am not communist for i don't follow a communist party (i follow liberal democrates, the communist theroy if you look into it is great. You can have a civil debate.

[Bobby]

Just because I'm not in the government, doesn't mean I'm not a republican. So I would consider you a communist. Sorry If you don't like that... It's to bad.

[rEpReSsIoN.?]

Lol... don't take it so personly.
Im not communist end of. You should widen your view of the world see diffrent points of view then make up your own.

[Bobby]

I'm not taking it personally, the truth is I could care less about you political views. Second of all just becuase I think you are something does it make you something????

[kolte]

Well, I'm a buddhist, and like everything else I study, I looked at both sides of the argument.
then I come to my own conclusion.
communism wholly bad (now that I know you follow at least some form of buddhism i can talk to you easier)
every person deserves the same oppritunities.
they deserve to reach life the way they see fit.
communism in theroy, like I have said many times before, is good.
but communism in a real word situation is bad.
what looks good on paper, isnt allways good once it is followed.
if you are not communist, then why do you debate it?
if you see the unequality of communism then why do you defend it?
if you reolize the injustice of communism then why do you seek to understand it?
why does democrocy fit the bill?
because it was created and fasioned over many years by people who may not have understood polotics, but strived for freedom.
they may not have been the most intellegent beings, they were not scientists or polotictions or royality like those men who created communism.
but they had the will, and the strife to see what was right, and wrong.
they looked at life threw the eyes of the pesent, the citizen, the wronged and the unequal, and they spread rights evenly.
it may have taken many years, but it evolved into the current, representitive democry found in the most sucsessful and just countries in the world.
democrocy in theory is wholly good.
thereofore, I am for it.
communism, in its evolution, as practiced today and yesterday, has been wholly bad.
never has a communist regiem not be dictoral.
saying you support a theory is one thing.
but saying you support a very violent and horrid form of governmnet, as seen in histroy, is awful.
right speech or right intention.
should you be ethical, or wise?
or should you even make the comprimise.
I stive for understanding over being understood.
I have the right intention, and my speech is only offensive if the one who hears it allows it to be.
but that can be said for all words.
communism is bad.
no matter what you say, or intend to say.
you cannot whoa sombody to partake in a form of government that has seen more blood at its hands......then any other.
only chirsitanity has experienced such violence as communism.

[rEpReSsIoN.?]

I'm not taking it personally, the truth is I could care less about you political views. Second of all just becuase I think you are something does it make you something???? Yes it does, you should look into communism theroy if you have not already- independently don't ask others opinion on it, seek the facts.

Right Speech, Right Conduct and Right View is the reason I took on defending communism because I saw people bashing the past communism and saying it represents all communism, which it should not represent modern non-dictatorship communism (which has never been practised), its like saying it can only be dictatorship- Stalin was evil he made it a dictatorship.
Also I never said I agreed with dictatorship communism the murder and violence it all evil.
Just because a communist party has just been a dictatorship to date, does not mean it can not be a democracy anymore (most communist parties today are not dictatorships- well its not in there policies- i looked into UK communist parities there not a dictatorship) - Stalin helped set up all the communist parties around the world (most of them) so its all his fault.
I'm defending true communism which is nothing to do with Stalinism ,they should not be have to put up with people judging them because of the past, are all Germans Nazis?

[Bobby]

No.... but at a time many were. And Stalinsim does have to do with communism... It's one of communism's forms.

[rEpReSsIoN.?]

Thats what im saying!!!!! I'm saying im defending TRUE communism so not Stalinsim. Not the violence and the touture.

[Bobby]

Communism is nothing alone. It has to be versionized, hint what Stalinism if....... most communism was close to stalinsm which is why people just call it communism, but in truth it's pretty much stalinism

[rEpReSsIoN.?]

Stalinism has always been a form of communism i never have argued that.
I don't really get you post, what are you argueing?

[Bobby]

I'm saying that communsim is a general term.

[kolte]

I'm saying that communsim is a general term.

fine, we shall call it maxism.
maxism good.
communism, or stalinism bad.
hows bout that.

though I don't support or particularly like maxism, its not bad.
communism however.
*shivers*

[Bobby]

Well i don't get that post , were you agreeing with me or disagreeing.

[kolte]

there is no agree or disagree.
in reality, communism is very vauge.
encompassing many different political theories.
maxism and stalinism are different.
maxism is good.
stalinism is the communism associated with russia and china etc.
marxism has never been used before, but its the original idea.
if you don't understand what I'm saying, you should look it up.

[Bobby]

I under stand about maxism and all that stuff. I just wasn't sure if you were agreeing with me.

[kolte]

I under stand about maxism and all that stuff. I just wasn't sure if you were agreeing with me.

well I didnt agree because you are wrong.
communism is vauge.
not concrete.
just as democrcy is made up of many different theories.
some bad some good.
the same is with communism.
not saying I support communism.
I'm just saying that its not all bad.

[Bobby]

By general I meant vague communism is not just one thing, It has many faces. so what u are saying is what i said.

[kolte]

no.
your saying communism is a general term for stalinism.
which it is not.
stalinism is but one of many different types of communism.

[Bobby]

I'm saying that communsim is a general term.

I'm saying that communuism is a general term, and Stalinsm is more specific.

[kolte]

"most communism was close to stalinsm which is why people just call it communism, but in truth it's pretty much stalinism"

those are you exact words.
now your contricting yourself.
which means you have changed your mind.
which means I got thew to you.
huzzah.

you said communism is pretty much stalinism.
how you say stalinism is part of communism.

score one for me.
*swish*

sorry, I love debating.

[Bobby]

I love debating too.

You won this one. What i really think is that communism is a general term. You won. Oh my god, you won.

[advent_child]

NO communist society has ever been successfully empowered. The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics tried communism, and they just ended up with a dictatorship of the communist party. Communists support a dictatorship of the prolitariat, the working class. There are many diffrent views of communism, which is why China and the U.S.S.R. had difficulties. It would be very hard to control power in a communist system, and would require all the people in a society to hold firm faith in the communist cause. This requires control over the public school system. Once a person has control over the public school system, they can mold the minds of children into whatever they liked. Hitler had kids learning that "the world is for the strong and brutal." They were taught that foxes eat rabbits because rabbits are weak, and therefore don't deserve to live. Stalin had kids saying "Thank Comrade Stalin for this happy life" every morning before they sat in their desks. It would be very hard for parents to regulate what their children were learning. Look at the communist countries of today and of the past. They have either failed, exist with poor standards of living, exist under harsh force, or are completly dependant upon other countries.(By aid, or trade.) China cheapens the value of their currency on purpose and invests heavily in American bonds. They also export to us upwards of 30% more to us than we do to them. In the past, I believe that this country has despised it so because that Communism is based on a system of one class of people dictating what the other classes have to do, which is the opposite of what the country stands for. Is that really fair?

[kolte]

NO communist society has ever been successfully empowered. The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics tried communism, and they just ended up with a dictatorship of the communist party. Communists support a dictatorship of the prolitariat, the working class. There are many diffrent views of communism, which is why China and the U.S.S.R. had difficulties. It would be very hard to control power in a communist system, and would require all the people in a society to hold firm faith in the communist cause. This requires control over the public school system. Once a person has control over the public school system, they can mold the minds of children into whatever they liked. Hitler had kids learning that "the world is for the strong and brutal." They were taught that foxes eat rabbits because rabbits are weak, and therefore don't deserve to live. Stalin had kids saying "Thank Comrade Stalin for this happy life" every morning before they sat in their desks. It would be very hard for parents to regulate what their children were learning. Look at the communist countries of today and of the past. They have either failed, exist with poor standards of living, exist under harsh force, or are completly dependant upon other countries.(By aid, or trade.) China cheapens the value of their currency on purpose and invests heavily in American bonds. They also export to us upwards of 30% more to us than we do to them. In the past, I believe that this country has despised it so because that Communism is based on a system of one class of people dictating what the other classes have to do, which is the opposite of what the country stands for. Is that really fair?

What are you talking about dog.
Once again, its quite obvious you are talking about Stalinism.
Its allready understood that Marxism, the government theory that we aknowodge as good and fiar, and stalinism, which is the foundation of all communist governments today, are two different, more, opposite forms of government.
Not only have you bluntly bunched all communist theories into one, misleading theory.
you have totally misunderstood the ideals of communism.
the prolitarite don't rule the country in communism.
they are the country.
they don't dictate the other classes.
they are the only class.
there are no other classes to be dictated.

Do I like communism.
no.
but you make it seem like this gawd awful thing all around.
and the non dictoral, commune based society pictured in marxism, is close to utopian.
were all people work with each other for free to acheive eternal bliss.

[advent_child]

Just because a class is not agknowledged does not mean it dosen't exist. It is possible for a Communist system of government to exist fairly and with great justice, but the balance of power for all communist systems today is shakey. Communism is a very broad and general term for a system of government. I speak of it taking into mind countries such as U.S.S.R. and P.R.C. because those are, well in U.S.S.R's case, were the leading communist entities. I agree with you that the "commune based society pictured in marxism, is close to utopian." Utopia means "no place."

[kolte]

" Utopia means "no place."

thats very wrong.
VERY
utopia : Associated with an ideal, if not impossible, social world.

a perfect world.
were did you get no place.
thats doesnt even make since.

[Latino_Teen]

so its ok and good that there is no free speech and u cant express yourself? and that the government controls everything? and that they will tell you what you can and cant watch or can or can read?

[kolte]

oh my fucking god.
you don't listen at all do you children.
must I chain you to a bed post and lash you raw before you can understand what I'm saying.

stalinism = bad

marxism = good

stalinism = communism in which there is a dictator etc.

marxism = communism in which the people run the government.

if you don't understand this.
then don't debate.

[advent_child]

Umm...straight from Wikipedia...and my World History text book.

"The term "utopia" is combined from two Greek words — "no" (ou) and "place/land" (topos), thus meaning "nowhere" or more literally, "no-place/no-land". "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopia#Etymology

"No Place" comes from it's etymology. Not it's literal definition.

And I do listen, occasionally, but still... can you chain me to a bed post?

[kolte]

Umm...straight from Wikipedia...and my World History text book.

"The term "utopia" is combined from two Greek words — "no" (ou) and "place/land" (topos), thus meaning "nowhere" or more literally, "no-place/no-land". "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopia#Etymology

"No Place" comes from it's etymology. Not it's literal definition.

And I do listen, occasionally, but still... can you chain me to a bed post?

I think i speak for the majority of vt when I say Wikipedia is an unreliable source.
even though in this case you are correct.
utopia means no place because it is impossible, as I stated eariler.
but the literal definiton, which is what I Imphesized in a previous post, is a perfect world.
obviously this is a false statement, becasue nothing is perfect.
hints the "no place" etomology of utopia.
So i was wrong, I retract my blunt comment.

this still does little to object that maxism is good and stalinism is bad.
your side has put all its power and knolwedge into offensive debate about stalinism when nobody on my side has argued against stalinism.
we reach a consenses on that part.
however, the type of communism we 'as in my side' support, is called marxism.
which, I becken you to try and bitch over.
you will find little backing to your arguments.

[advent_child]

I am farmiliar with MaRxism, and I believe it is a positive theory. HOWEVER! It has never been succesfully implemented. The U.S.S.R. was not founded on Stalinism, it was founded on Leninism, which was modified from Marxism. (so many isms) I have don't have much to argue against Marxism, as you apparently have nothing to argue for it. Marxism is a philosophy, not a laid out system of government which does not state where the balance of power lies, or how the prolitariat should control the nation (democratically, republically,through a brutal dictator the people can impeach only by military action). I am not against Marxism, but I am against the way in which Marxist societies (none of which are economically prosporing today) are implemented. Communist countries usually are rated very low in the "freedom of speech" area. Lastly, look at the Marxist Labor theory of value, which states an item gains its value by how much labor is put into making it. It is dead. It is replaced by the subjective theory of value, which states that an item aquires its value by how much a person desires it. And I checked the text book, which agrees with Wikipedia, that the words which "Utopia" were derived from translate to "No place."

[kolte]

I am farmiliar with MaRxism, and I believe it is a positive theory. HOWEVER! It has never been succesfully implemented. The U.S.S.R. was not founded on Stalinism, it was founded on Leninism, which was modified from Marxism. (so many isms) I have don't have much to argue against Marxism, as you apparently have nothing to argue for it. Marxism is a philosophy, not a laid out system of government which does not state where the balance of power lies, or how the prolitariat should control the nation (democratically, republically,through a brutal dictator the people can impeach only by military action). I am not against Marxism, but I am against the way in which Marxist societies (none of which are economically prosporing today) are implemented. Communist countries usually are rated very low in the "freedom of speech" area. Lastly, look at the Marxist Labor theory of value, which states an item gains its value by how much labor is put into making it. It is dead. It is replaced by the subjective theory of value, which states that an item aquires its value by how much a person desires it. And I checked the text book, which agrees with Wikipedia, that the words which "Utopia" were derived from translate to "No place."

Fine, I figured I could avoid this.
but you have given me little choice.

The Upper Class, the Lower Class, the bourgeoisie, the proletariat, the master and the servent, the opresser and the opressed.
that is what communism tried to abolish.

Communism saw to meet the needs of the proletariat and abolish the bourgeoise.
meet the needs of the opressed and abolish the opresser.


"The distinguishing feature of communism is not the abolition of property generally, but the abolition of bourgeois property. But modern bourgeois private property is the final and most complete expression of the system of producing and appropriating products that is based on class antagonisms, on the exploitation of the many by the few."


So, if you were to be blunt, communism could be discribed as an abolition of private property.


"Hard-won, self-acquired, self-earned property!"

No. your posetions remain yours.


"But does wage labor create any property for the laborer? Not a bit. It creates capital, i.e., that kind of property which exploits wage labor, and which cannot increase except upon conditions of begetting a new supply of wage labor for fresh exploitation. Property, in its present form, is based on the antagonism of capital and wage labor."

A capitalist economy is not a purely personal thing is it. no no
it is based on the social status in production.
only but the united sction of all members of soceity, can capitalism be set into motion.
capital is therefore not only personal, but it is a social power.
When, therefore, capital is converted into common property, into the property of all members of society, personal property is not thereby transformed into social property.
it is only the social character of the property that is changed.
it loses its class character.


"The average price of wage labor is the minimum wage, i.e., that quantum of the means of subsistence which is absolutely requisite to keep the laborer in bare existence as a laborer. What, therefore, the wage laborer appropriates by means of his labor merely suffices to prolong and reproduce a bare existence. We by no means intend to abolish this personal appropriation of the products of labor, an appropriation that is made for the maintenance and reproduction of human life, and that leaves no surplus wherewith to command the labor of others. All that we want to do away with is the miserable character of this appropriation, under which the laborer lives merely to increase capital, and is allowed to live only in so far as the interest of the ruling class requires it."

In bourgeois society, living labor is but a means to increase accumulated labor.
In communist society, accumulated labor is but a means to widen, to enrich, to promote the existence of the laborer.
In bourgeois society, therefore, the past dominates the present; in communist society, the present dominates the past.
In bourgeois society, capital is independent and has individuality, while the living person is dependent and has no individuality.
And the abolition of this state of things is called by the bourgeois, abolition of individuality and freedom!
And rightly so. The abolition of bourgeois individuality, bourgeois independence, and bourgeois freedom is undoubtedly aimed at.

Perhaps, like so many people, what horrifies you about communism is the abolistion of private property.
But why does this scare you?
a very large percent of americans and democratic countries allready have a large percent of there citizens living without property.
If you rent your hourse, your office, lease your car these are all forums of private property owned byt the opresser, the man, the bourgeois.
in communism these things would be rightfully yours.
work for the better of the country, your car is your right.
your house if your right.
your land, and your tractor.

Communism deprives no man of the power to appropriate the products of society; all that it does is to deprive him of the power to subjugate the labor of others by means of such appropriations.

I'mma let you rest your eyes and mind now
give you some time to argue your point back.
remember now, there is no dictatorship in this forum of communism.
there is no evil to speak of.
this is marxism in all its equailty.
so if you start complaining stalinism, then I will agree with you.
but there is no reason to debate that, because we allready have an agreement on that.

[advent_child]

Umm... What about Marxism? You completly left that out. Please explain how you would implement your ideal communist system of government. Look at the strength of Capitalist societies of today in contrast with Communist. Even the Communist superpowers fell/fall behind the Capitalists. The only major communist force that has survived the cold war is the Peoples Republic of China, and once again, their economy is heavily reliant upon ours. Freedom of speech is limited; the same internet filters they use in my school district are used by China to filter out the internet to everyone. Look at Tinnamen Square. Do you think it is fair for the government to own everything? What about my right to establish my own buisness as a landlord or banker? In the end, can't the courts and laws protect the working class from abuse by the upper classes? ( sorry for turning this into a quiz)

[kolte]

Umm... What about Marxism? You completly left that out. Please explain how you would implement your ideal communist system of government. Look at the strength of Capitalist societies of today in contrast with Communist. Even the Communist superpowers fell/fall behind the Capitalists. The only major communist force that has survived the cold war is the Peoples Republic of China, and once again, their economy is heavily reliant upon ours. Freedom of speech is limited; the same internet filters they use in my school district are used by China to filter out the internet to everyone. Look at Tinnamen Square. Do you think it is fair for the government to own everything? What about my right to establish my own buisness as a landlord or banker? In the end, can't the courts and laws protect the working class from abuse by the upper classes? ( sorry for turning this into a quiz)

Thats what I was explaining.
marxism.
sombody is slow.
once again, china is based off of stalinism.
every single communist country that ever has been and is, was created as a stalinist communism.
so we are debating different things.
and I'm burnt out becauase nobody even knows what the hole debate is about because it was a split tread and there was no original topic so everyone spun off there own little debate non of which met up with each other.
first it was commuism fair etc.
then it was stalinism bad marxism good.
we established that.
and people are still grouping communism into stalinism.
and they left out marxism.
so they totally are arguing against the wind since I totally agree with pretty much everthing they say only I think marxism is a good idea even though I wouldnt ever vote for it because I like democrcy more.

[Nexdeus]

like koler i think communisim is a good idea in theory but it never works out becuase not one person should be able to have the right to deny the people the right to live, speak, express there right to idaviduality. no one should have the right to have abslolute power over anyones life and everyone is entitled to there own opion

[advent_child]

Someone needs applause for trying to explain Marxism with only using the word "Marxism" once, at at the end. China was not based of Stalinism, because if it were, the likelyhood of the U.S.S.R. falling out with the P.R.C. would be very low. Chinese communism is based off of a little thing called Maoism! Stalinism is not the only form of Communism today, nor has it been the only form of communism in the past. Your extinsive post reflected communism in general, not just Marxism, and for some reason quoted unmentioned scources. Communism never works out. It never has and it never will.Democracy is a more stable form of government. In the end, despite vast unclarity and general mass summary, we agree on this.

[serial-thrilla]

like koler i think communisim is a good idea in theory but it never works out becuase not one person should be able to have the right to deny the people the right to live, speak, express there right to idaviduality. no one should have the right to have abslolute power over anyones life and everyone is entitled to there own opion no its a terrible idea in theory. if it was truly a good idea then they would be able to find a way to make it work.

[Bobby]

This is qualified for the debate hall of fame.

[knowandbefree]

Hi Comrades,

Feel free to check out our website, full of alternative news, petitions, random thoughts, poetry and amusing cartoons. If there is anything you would like to add to our collection, drop us a line at: [email protected]

In Solidarity.

www.knowandbefree.blogspot.com

[cmpcmp]

I left for like 2 days and this thread grew like 4 pages, so I skimmed them.....
------------------------------------------------
O.k. the whole Stalinist vs. Marxism argument I think is a misunderstanding. What people like me are trying to say is that; no people try to implement Stalinism, they attempt to implement Marxism. Unfortunately historically it fails and either dies or becomes Stalimism.
-----------------------------
"Utopian government" was originally an insult to Marxism saying that it doesn't and will never exist because it can't work, but today it means heaven like or Nirvana or perfect, its kinds counterintuitive now.