depression *cries*

[Grinchilla]

I've concluded that there is no free will. I'm majorly depressed now. Explain to me how there is free will. I'm an atheist, btw, but some of you know religion as truth, just as I know atheism is truth, so go ahead and speak too. If we all think we're right, and there can only be 1 true answer, chances are my ideas are the wrong answer. :p

mwha
thanks.

[drewlink99]

Me too, just decided to live a while longer...
Well, I have a religion, though it does not fit into a single one...
Free will? I think we have it, to an extent, free will is controlled by the majority of the population, like fads and fitting in, and other things of that nature.
I do believe, however, that there are people who have true free will, and these people are the ones that do not fit in, but are not outcasts. But I find these people hard to come bye...

Hope my input helps!

[Grinchilla]

Since I don't believe in free will, I believe everyone is equal. So I believe people who "don't fit in but are not outcasts" aren't better than everyone else. They somehow don't have more freewill. Just my opinion.

The reason I believe in free will... scientifically aren't we just robots with a sense of awareness? And couldn't that your sense of awareness easily have been trapped to a body other than your current one? We're robots because we just react to things... and yes, some reactions are random and have no cause... but everything we do has a reason.

I belive if I went out and bombed a daycare, it'd be almost destiny. See... this philosophy in life is very depressing and I hate it. So you say don't live by it? Well, even though many Christians know most of the world would go to eternal fire, they still believe in it.

Sorry I typed so much. It's probably general thought.

[drewlink99]

Well, I actually don't get what you are saying, but I do...
It sounds like there are some contradictions in what you are saying, but if it is what you believe, then so be it!
I believe that we are all not equal, that we are all unique. Like me, I think I'm different in every way from my friends... But I get what you say about "robots" or what I call "cookie cutter" personalities. But, it is the little things to look for in life that makes it different, get it? We all read, write, type, drive, eat ,sleep, breath, and even think. But some can play piano, paint, truly write, command emotion from the passionate masses, and sooo much more, but it is my opinion...
I wonder, and I'm not judging, but is this because you don't believe in "a" god?
Like you said, Christians believe anyway... But I am "Christian" but very unorthodox!

Sorry for the rambling!

[Grinchilla]

No! Don't be sorry. I can see you like talking like me :p

I can tell you don't understand me. I believe that even a person who paints, paints for a reason. Why do we choose to paint? There has to be a cause... a reason we want to, yah? None of our decisions are ours. We just react to things. We eat because we're hungry, etc. Even typos...something had to cause it. It just doesn't happen. A domino effect since the beginning of time. I also believe people with cookie cutter personalities are somehow not as different or somehow less. I believe a rapist is just as good as a missionary.

In my interpretation of the bible i feel it clearly says there is no free will, so nothing to do with my atheism. :) I'm also probably insane. :-S

Thanks for listening, deary

[drewlink99]

You may say you are an atheist, but, no offense, the way you explain it, you are kind of saying that there is SOMETHING out there, watching, controlling, Ya know?
I do believe that religion is a crock though... Sooooo..... Yea!
And! Funny enough, I have not read the Bible! It is too long, and uninteresting...

[Grinchilla]

No... I'm not saying people are puppets of a god. I'm saying that people do things solely as a reaction to something else. :) not because of a god.

And I don't know if religion is a crock... There is no such things as truth. The simplest things you regard as truth... someone else might not. Who says they're wrong? They know they're right just as much as you know you're right.

I'm not disregarding your ideas... just explaining my personal philosphy. :)

EDIT: the bible ist awesome. it really gets one thinking. not that I've felt like thinking lately *deppressed* haha

[drewlink99]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Then, is that how some people can see into the future, because it is planned, but then what, if people knew, they would change it, but then it was planned all along!
All in a never ending spiral of events planned and unplanned, well thats life!

[drewlink99]

Yea me too. I give a mouthful when it comes to this...

[drewlink99]

Like, I truly don't care about what the bible says about hell and how you get there!
Like just 2 days ago, I was going to kill myself, I had a plan and everything, when where how, and I never gave hell a thought.
But it is all in personal philosophy like you said!

[Grinchilla]

yah haha

I love sci-fi. :p

[drewlink99]

Me too. Doctor Who all the way!!!

[Grinchilla]

NOOOOOOOO! My bff is obsessed with it. She thinks the fourth one is cute. O_O I'm personally not into old men. :)

[Hyper]

It seems to me your just very teenage-depressed.

I definitely don't view the world as you do.

Saying religion or atheism is ''truth'' is narrow minded and wont get you far.

[Grinchilla]

haha I said I was an atheist but I also said in this post "And I don't know if religion is a crock... There is no such things as truth." is that so narrow-minded?

I believe my world views could be right... and I believe yours could be too. Since we don't know who's right... I think it's just good to live to be happy and not hurt other people... not to keep very strong views. is this OK?

[Hyper]

haha I said I was an atheist but I also said in this post "And I don't know if religion is a crock... There is no such things as truth." is that so narrow-minded?

I believe my world views could be right... and I believe yours could be too. Since we don't know who's right... I think it's just good to live to be happy and not hurt other people... not to keep very strong views. is this OK?

It only matters if its ok for you

[Grinchilla]

what only matters if it's OK for you?
:)

[Hyper]

what only matters if it's OK for you?
:)

You asked if what you thought was ok - well it only matters if its ok for you.. Since its your take on the world, it doesn't matter what other people think if its sincere for you then its right for you

[Grinchilla]

What if I'm OK with murdering people? Is that OK because that's what I believe. :p sorry

But I am thinking now... and I am ok with murdering people... I'm OK with everything. You think I should get out more, right? Tell me to get psychotic help.

[Hyper]

What if I'm OK with murdering people? Is that OK because that's what I believe. :p sorry

But I am thinking now... and I am ok with murdering people... I'm OK with everything. You think I should get out more, right? Tell me to get psychotic help.

Something being ''right'' for the individual doesn't mean the individuals actions are right & just for those around him/her

Your own views which are sincere to you and that you have acquired through experience are ''OK'' for YOU as the individual

That's my take on it ;P

[Grinchilla]

"Something being ''right'' for the individual doesn't mean the individuals actions are right "
How do you know if those actions are right than? If I for instance "know" murder is perfectly OK and you "know" murder is wrong... who is the correct one? Popular opinion is what decides who is right? Since very few people would agree with me?

I'm not fighting with you or disagreeing with you... I just like talking, k? :p

[Hyper]

"Something being ''right'' for the individual doesn't mean the individuals actions are right "
How do you know if those actions are right than? If I for instance "know" murder is perfectly OK and you "know" murder is wrong... who is the correct one? Popular opinion is what decides who is right? Since very few people would agree with me?

I'm not fighting with you or disagreeing with you... I just like talking, k? :p

What is right morally or whatever word you want to use is really a philosophical question that you can't truly answer. EDIT: Since its a ''universal'' right or wrong question - again you can only answer that for yourself.

What is right for society is indeed determined by the majority of people. Majority of people think murder is wrong so in society murder is ''not OK''

[Grinchilla]

I see what you mean... but I disagree I guess... but I know there is no simpler way.

Is gay marriage wrong because the majority thinks so? Were the witch hangings OK in Salem because the majority thought so? Or anything stupid things people thought in the past. THe world is flat, etc... but things that hurt other people. If you are a republican and the democrats have the majority vote, are you than wrong? How about thinking Elmo is the coolest thing ever. If what's right and wrong was judged that way, everyone would be the same, assuming that everyone wanted to do what's best.

Sorry that was so long haha

EDIT: abortion... MOST people in the world think killing fetuses is wrong... some that killing them is the most horrible thing ever, innocent lives... but some people think it's the best thing to do.

Do you like puppy haunches? They make me giggle.

[Hyper]

EDIT: Since its a ''universal'' right or wrong question - again you can only answer that for yourself.


I have to quote myself for you ;)

[Grinchilla]

But than I mentioned murder to counter that. and you deemed that wrong since 99% of people think it's wrong. this is a bit off topic. :P I do feel less depressed though... talking does that for me... thanks, hon

[Aspiringanonymous]

I have struggled with the concept of morality for as long as I can remember. It just seems so absurd to state absolutes when there are countless different possible perceptions of existence. Having the majority agreeing on a view doesn't make it ultimately of a higher order, for the group is made up of individual human beings no different or better than the individual dissident. Majority itself is defined relatively, and trending beliefs in society also change with time.

To me, all reality - including concrete reality - is subjective. There are as many possible interpretations of 'truth' as there are sentient beings in the universe.

As for free will, I had been contemplating it for several hours when coming across your post. It is indeed a very depressing conclusion to arrive at. I tried for a long time to make myself believe otherwise, but was not successful, for predestination remained still a much convincing and logical view.

I'm not honestly sure what to say. In such a context, talk of any attempt to transcend one's destiny is a blatant contradiction. Yet I still try, and hope, because it's all I have to live for.

All will become clear eventually. We all still have a long way to go.

[Sapphire]

"I believe a rapist is just as good as a missionary"

WTF? That is very seriously messed up...

[Grinchilla]

If you can say that's seriously messed up because it's in contradiction to YOUR beliefs, I can say your ideas are seriously messed up because they're in contradiction to MY beliefs. :p

But you see... with this mentality, I've gotten very depressed. But a person who believes in Jesus for instance, doesn't just stop believing because they find out about the depressign truth of Hell, as I've said before.

Do ya'll think I should just stop thinking and live life? But if I just stopped thinking... the sacredness of life would be killed... I WOULD be just a mindless robot in my opinion, if I didn't think of the beginning of life and such.

[Sapphire]

You have said in this thread that you think that it's good "to live to be happy and not hurt other people" and yet you claim that a rapist is just as good as a missionary...

You seem very, very confused about your views so forgive me for not taking them seriously.

[Grinchilla]

Yeah, I'm an idiot.

But I don't see my views as conflicting. If I don't believe in free will... how could a rapists and murderer be any different from each other? But I will try my best to not hurt others since no one likes pain... but I also don't believe it's my choice anyway since I don't believe in free will. Just out of destiny, I'm not a murderer or rapists, you see? My awareness could have easily been attached to a murderer's body. and than I'd be the murderer.


My philosophy is besides the matter... Basically I'm having trouble excepting the truth... even if it's only the truth for me.

EDIT: kind of like how a teenage might get caught up on how there's starvation in the world. getting caught up on really depressing thoughts and not being able to live life.... you know what I mean? Has anyone dealt with this before?

[Aspiringanonymous]

Don't stop thinking. Confusion is an inevitable aspect of the beginning of every intellectual journey. It will sort itself out with time, introspection, and experience.

Don't stop talking, either. If your views deviate from the mainstream, then seek out individuals who are open to these differences. Discussion is where a large amount of valuable insight is found. It is easy to become overwhelmed when one is isolated with the complexity of their own thoughts.

Yes. The lack of free will is a depressing thought. At one point however, you will learn to come to terms with it, and try to make the most of your life regardless. It takes time. But you'll find your way.

[Sapphire]

If you believe in fate controlling everything, do you see value in the judicial system?

[Grinchilla]

When one doesn't believe in free will, nothing is valuable and nothing is worthless, including the judicial system. It's just how the world turned out.

And I don't believe in fate exactly... I believe everything that happens in the world is just a reaction to something else... no conscious decisions... basically something makes you think what you think. something has to make the person who bombs an orphanage. the bomber can't choose not to be a bomber because there was no action put upon so his reaction would be not to bomber . so he should be punished so there is an action that would make him not bomber anymore... :p The reactions are still happening and are too complex to predict.
But I really hate it when people get put in jail just because they broke the law, not for the victim's sake. :p Do you know what I mean?
Do I believe if I went out and bombed an orphanage,it be against free will? Yes. :p
Why do you ask anyway?

[Sapphire]

Ok, to me, that makes very little sense.
If the world truly operated like that then wouldn't everyone react the same way (or at least in similar ways) to a given situation?
The reality is, however, that people react differently to the same situations.
The way a person thinks can be turned on it's head without any external interference too.
How can this be explained using the concept of the non-existence of conscious decisions?

Also, if people don't make conscious decisions to break the law and hurt other people, why should they be punished?
I mean, the criminal didn't choose to do X, Y or Z because situations A, B and C caused it to happen and they couldn't do anything to change that - so what is the point in punishing them?
What value does payment of fines, community service or imprisonment have if they were not in control of their actions?

Value isn't determined by the existence of free will.
Nature is valuable because of its beauty.
Love is valuable because it makes people happy and (on a more evolutionary not) aids survival.
Water is valuable because it supports life.
Soap is valuable because it helps us live longer and more healthily.

[Grinchilla]

I don't think you get what I'm saying.
Thought and consciousness can't quite be explained scientifically... but reactions and and chemical reactions can. People would not react the same way... because everyone has such different lives and experiences... these things are what makes people make decisions, no? How they were raised and etc. Like how did you decide what to put in that post? I'm not saying spontaneous things don't happen in nature though.

Why should they be punished if it's "not their fault"? I just explained this in my last post. :p And it's irrelevant anyway because when you don't believe in free will, things just happen. Including the judicial system. and everything. if people decided to stop punishing people because they don't believe in free will... they can't help it cuz there is no free will. What'll happen was basically "destined" since the beginning of time.

But thanks for trying to poke holes in my logic to make me happier. There are many books on this theory... I think it'd make me feel better to read these and prove myself wrong or right. and to educate myself instead of spitting out opinions.

EDIT: And there is no truth. But if I see it... it's real to me. otherwise... doubt is perfect! because you can be wrong just as much as other's logic.

I'm also think nothing is good or bad. it just is. starvation, rainbows... all equal. you think I need to get into the real world... you think I haven't suffered since I say things like that. Well... I haven't really suffered before.

[Grinchilla]

Talking this out with you and others really has made me feel better though, dearie... just talking always makes me happier as I've said... and I am going to read up on this... I'm already excited too.

[Sapphire]

Something I hate about this attitude to life is that it excuses people of doing really horrific things. People like Josef Stalin, Adolf Hitler, Harold Shipman, Peter Sutcliffe, Saddam Hussein and Idi Amin are all just victims of cause and effect with no chance to alter the direction their lives were going in.
You put rapists on a par with missionaries.

I cannot and will not accept such a stance on life.
IMO, people who think like this are living in a dream world.

You are welcome to your own opinions though.

I'm also think nothing is good or bad. it just is. starvation, rainbows... all equal. you think I need to get into the real world... you think I haven't suffered since I say things like that. Well... I haven't really suffered before.
I actually wasn't thinking that you hadn't suffered before. But since you haven't, I think it explains the cold and wishy-washy "everything just is - there is no good or bad" attitude you have.

I'm glad that you are feeling better after discussing this though and I hope your investigations further into this topic leave you feeling equally excited.

[Grinchilla]

I'm not cold. I don't live in a dream world. The whole point of this post was that this theory of mine actually hurts me.
It's the equivalent of an atheist calling all Christians stupid just because they all believe in Christianity, beliefs that conflict with the atheists. My beliefs aren't wrong just because they conflict with yours and vice versa... so truth is not known... so which should we live by? i don't know... at all... didn't you say something about this?

It does excuse people who do really horrific things. Because it's destiny they'd be like this. I do think "things just are."

I think it's so clear and it's frustrating that no oen understands what I'm saying. Just like atheists think it's so clear that there is no God... and they can't force themselves to believe in God... This is how I believe in free will. I'm not being elitist... I'm not saying my ideas are absolute truth as I've said a thousand times... but these ideas are real to me.

I have suffered before... but it's just a state of mind... but I've had times when I've felt as bad a starving child sex slave I'm sure. even though I don't have real problems.

sorry for the crude example but that's like the worst thing I can imagine.

[Sapphire]

I'm not cold. I don't live in a dream world. The whole point of this post was that this theory of mine actually hurts me.
It's the equivalent of an atheist calling all Christians stupid just because they all believe in Christianity, beliefs that conflict with the atheists. My beliefs aren't wrong just because they conflict with yours and vice versa... so truth is not known... so which should we live by? i don't know... at all... didn't you say something about this?I haven't said that you are cold, living in a dream world or are wrong. I said that it is my opinion that this attitude is cold and that the people who hold this attitude live in a dream world - but never did I assert it as the undeniable truth.

but I've had times when I've felt as bad a starving child sex slave I'm sure. even though I don't have real problems.

sorry for the crude example but that's like the worst thing I can imagine.I sincerely doubt you have ever felt anything to match the feelings the child in your example will have felt...
I have suffered beforeThis is directly contradicted by this:
Well... I haven't really suffered before.Pray, tell me. Which one is accurate because they cannot both be accurate simultaneously?

[Grinchilla]

I feel like you're just trying to prove yourself right instead of helping cope with what I deem as truth... and this is find... just tell me we've switched to a philosophical discussion instead of an advice one. :p

Do you believe you could easily be wrong and I could be right? I believe this... I believe it about everything...

The last bit that you mentioned... I was talking about not actually having real problems, but making myself suffer over stupid stuff. Don't underestimate how anyone suffers... let's just conclude that pain is pain and the extent of it is irrelevant. But since this is destiny... it can't really be bad.

[Sapphire]

I feel like you're just trying to prove yourself right instead of helping cope with what I deem as truth... and this is find... just tell me we've switched to a philosophical discussion instead of an advice one. :p

Do you believe you could easily be wrong and I could be right? I believe this... I believe it about everything...I'm not concerned with proving myself right or wrong. I only got involved because you were making ridiculous comments - like rapists and missionaries being equally good.

The last bit that you mentioned... I was talking about not actually having real problems, but making myself suffer over stupid stuff. Don't underestimate how anyone suffers... let's just conclude that pain is pain and the extent of it is irrelevant. But since this is destiny... it can't really be bad.I'm not underestimating how much you may have suffered (if you have indeed now decided that you have suffered), but I am disputing your statement that you have "felt as bad a starving child sex slave".

Btw, what was behind you contradicting yourself on whether you have actually suffered at all in life? A moment of amnesia?

[Grinchilla]

Why are my beliefs ridiculous but not yours? :) I'm not being defensive... this is just something I like to think about... why I believe what I believe and how there are so many different versions of truth.

The amnesia incident... no... haha the first time I was saying that I had no real problems... and the second time I was saying that I made myself suffer over stupid things. Let's just say being on the brink of death at your own hands is bad no matter, OK? But I don't think anything is bad. I'm just speaking in your terms to prove that I know what pain is as I am admittedly disrespecting it.

[Sapphire]

Why are my beliefs ridiculous but not yours? :) I'm not being defensive... this is just something I like to think about... why I believe what I believe and how there are so many different versions of truth.I fail to see how you can so plainly put a rapist on the same platform as a missionary and, to be quite frank, it makes me feel sick that you do.

But then I also fail to see how you can't change the way you view the world in the light of the distress it causes you so maybe it's just me, eh?

The amnesia incident... no... haha the first time I was saying that I had no real problems... and the second time I was saying that I made myself suffer over stupid things. Let's just say being on the brink of death at your own hands is bad no matter, OK? But I don't think anything is bad. I'm just speaking in your terms to prove that I know what pain is as I am admittedly disrespecting it.Really? Oh, I must have missed the bit in each post where you explained that...

[Grinchilla]

LOL
I already explained to you how excellent my social skills are. :p

I'm feel bad that I make you sick.
I think some Christians could relate to me as I've said. They know billions of people are going to Hell, but they accept that as the truth. why don't Christian ideas sicken you? Because it's the majority and you said the majority was the only way to find a compromise of truth?

[Sapphire]

Who said that the concept of hell doesn't sicken me?
Also, where did I mention compromise?

I don't remember saying anything in this thread about either of those...

[Grinchilla]

"What is right for society is indeed determined by the majority of people. Majority of people think murder is wrong so in society murder is ''not OK''" says my dear sapphire

You didn't say the majority was necessarily right, but this is the best truth we have to follow... society's rules, which is the majority opinion. Or did I interpret this wrong?

How can a belief sicken you? I don't understand. Gaw... maybe I am cold. But there's always a reason why people believe things. and do things. the whole free will thing.

I said nothing was bad. i don't know. maybe my ideas would change if I saw something horribly tragic. And you'd say, of course your ideas would change if you saw something like that.

I just thought now... I can be a hypocrite and still have these ideas... Like I couldn't kill a baby. :p and I know being happy is better than starving. I'm a hypocrite... the truth that I believe in is against human nature.


lalalalaaaaaa I love the rain. :)

[Sapphire]

You can argue against free will and I can argue for free will until the cows come home and we will still be none the wiser.
"What is right for society is indeed determined by the majority of people. Majority of people think murder is wrong so in society murder is ''not OK''" says my dear sapphireIf you click here then you will see that Hyper said that, not me -> http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showpost.php?p=690857&postcount=22

[Grinchilla]

haha yah sorry sorry. It doesn't matter anyway. because I "know" I'm right just as much as you, either of us could be right, so we might as well both be wrong.

Thanks for talking. Have a good day.