Secularism and Homosexuality

[Sage]

I'm not too big on wordy threads, so I'll leave this discussion open with just one question. Are there any secular (non-religious) reasons for one to be intolerant of homosexuals?

[ShatteredWings]

"Sexual contact is intended by nature to be for reproduction. The "gay animals" are clearly dealing with a mental illness"

That is the only reason I can think of. and I've thought about this one before too.

[Sage]

"Sexual contact is intended by nature to be for reproduction. The "gay animals" are clearly dealing with a mental illness"

That is the only reason I can think of. and I've thought about this one before too.

I forgot the name, (I'm sure some fans could fill me in) but Richard Dawkins wrote something once on the evolutionary benefits of having a number of gay members in a community, as they are able to take care of children whose parents have abandoned them or died or something to that effect.

[ShatteredWings]

I know. I've heard that too, but yeah I'm not sure what the article is either.

I also think we have a natural population control here. Something has to keep the human population from exceeding what our earth's carrying capacity is. Gays or disesase. I'd rather gays, tbh

[Maverick]

The only one I can possibly think of is that its unnatural.

[Camazotz]

The only one I can possibly think of is that its unnatural.

That's debatable because some scientists would argue that because many other species of animals can show homosexual behavior;it may be more natural than what we previously believed.

However, that would be the only one the I can honestly think of off the top of my head.

[theOperaGhost]

The only one I've got, and the reason I have any problem with homosexual intercourse is because it is unnatural.

[Sugaree]

There is one non-religious reason to be against homosexuality. It's mainly because it doesn't seem natural. Our parents and grandparents always saw that the only people that were married were men and women. Now as with our generation, we're starting to see women marry other women and men marry other men. I personally see no wrong in homosexuality even though I'm a Catholic.

Another big reason would be that homosexuals can't reproduce. That's the obvious thing. Gay male couples will have to adopt a child and females would either adopt or be artificially inseminated (sp?) to have children. We see that the only way to create a child is for a man and woman to have intercourse and we all know what happens then. We are a nation divided because of things like this. I find homosexuality completely natural because no one can tell any individual who to love or who to be attracted to. It's human nature.

[The Joker]

As others have said, only because it's not considered "normal".

[nick]

Stupidity

[ShatteredWings]

Gay male couples will have to adopt a child and females would either adopt or be artificially inseminated (sp?) to have children.
Gay men can use a surrogate mother, and gay women can adopt too..

[theOperaGhost]

Gay men can use a surrogate mother, and gay women can adopt too..

Which is unnatural, which furthers the reasoning for being against homosexuality.

[ShatteredWings]

Fair enough...i can't think of any argument to counter that specific point that isn't comparing apples and oranges.

[Sage]

Which is unnatural, which furthers the reasoning for being against homosexuality.

Not neccessarily, animals take in abandoned (animal) children all the time.

[INFERNO]

We mentioned this in one of my courses where the DSM at one point had homosexuality listed as a psychiatric disorder. The story goes as follows, in 1968, the DSM-II had it as an Axis I disorder because they deemed it a) socially disruptive or b) a danger to themselves or others.

Other reasoning I think could be that a homosexual man is seen as usually more feminine, which violates the gender role that males, at least in Western societies, are meant to be more masculine. The same goes for lesbians, only they're portrayed as too manly, which violates their gender role which should be more feminine. There's a general agreement that gender roles are socially-acquired and so, one may argue that homosexuality could be a result of improper social learning.

There is one other issue of male-male and female-female relationships being unable to reproduce. Lesbians could theoretically reproduce by going to a sperm bank but assuming they don't get any "outside help", then they cannot. Some may view that as abnormal because it violates the supposed natural physiology.

Overall, I do think that it's frowned upon because it's unnatural, however, just saying it's unnatural I think is inadequate. There are numerous reasons as to why it is unnatural depending on the perspectives you take, so although unnatural could be an umbrella term, I think there are numerous explanations for it.

[Sapphire]

Even diseases and disorders are natural occurences, so what makes homosexuality so "unnatural"?

[theOperaGhost]

Then I guess it's not unnatural, it's abnormal. Diseases and disorders are abnormal and I feel homosexuality falls under the category of abnormality.

[Sage]

Then I guess it's not unnatural, it's abnormal. Diseases and disorders are abnormal and I feel homosexuality falls under the category of abnormality.

Doesn't that just make discrimination against them even worse? Most people wouldn't openly hate someone in a wheelchair or a kid with autism.

[theOperaGhost]

Doesn't that just make discrimination against them even worse? Most people wouldn't openly hate someone in a wheelchair or a kid with autism.

Who said I hate homosexuals?

[Sage]

Who said I hate homosexuals?

Nobody's saying that. We're just debating whether or not being "unnatural" or "abnormal" is a legitimate excuse to discriminate or be intolerant towards homosexuals and I'm pointing out that that's not valid because people with "abnormalities" are generally sympathized by society, not held with contempt.

[PalindromicBob]

Nobody's saying that. We're just debating whether or not being "unnatural" or "abnormal" is a legitimate excuse to discriminate or be intolerant towards homosexuals and I'm pointing out that that's not valid because people with "abnormalities" are generally sympathized by society, not held with contempt.

Agreed. Even if was "unnatural", why should that impact the way they are to be treated? The only explanation I can give is discrimination.

[mrmcdonaldduck]

i dont see why, except that it would go against the norm.

[theOperaGhost]

Agreed. Even if was "unnatural", why should that impact the way they are to be treated? The only explanation I can give is discrimination.

Everyone is discriminated against in some way or another. People make way too big of a deal out of it. Deal with it...everyone is different, which is the cause of discrimination.

[Sage]

Everyone is discriminated against in some way or another. People make way too big of a deal out of it. Deal with it...everyone is different, which is the cause of discrimination.

No one is without prejudices, but choosing not to act upon them is a virtue.

[Delusion15]

All i could think of is the whole they cannot have babies excuse. But that can be counteracted by adoption so really i can't find a reason why anyone would or should care who someone is attracted too.

[PalindromicBob]

No one is without prejudices, but choosing not to act upon them is a virtue.

I can't agree more. I'm serious. I said something like that to my friend recently (and I thought I was being original xD).

[ShatteredWings]

Everyone is discriminated against in some way or another. People make way too big of a deal out of it. Deal with it...everyone is different, which is the cause of discrimination.

People who have a physical or severe mental disablitiy are protected by law against discrimination.

Gays are LEGALLY discriminated against (most states won't apply hate crimes to lgbt, almost all states allow employers to not hier someone on basis of their sexuality or gender identity(if it differes to their physical sex. yet sexisim is illegal in work, go figure), ect.)

[theOperaGhost]

People who have a physical or severe mental disablitiy are protected by law against discrimination.

Gays are LEGALLY discriminated against (most states won't apply hate crimes to lgbt, almost all states allow employers to not hier someone on basis of their sexuality or gender identity(if it differes to their physical sex. yet sexisim is illegal in work, go figure), ect.)

All EEO employers protect against discrimination because of sexual orientation.

Sexual harassment is a form of sex discrimination that violates Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Title VII applies to employers with 15 or more employees, including state and local governments. It also applies to employment agencies and to labor organizations, as well as to the federal government.

Unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature constitute sexual harassment when this conduct explicitly or implicitly affects an individual's employment, unreasonably interferes with an individual's work performance, or creates an intimidating, hostile, or offensive work environment.

Sexual harassment can occur in a variety of circumstances, including but not limited to the following:

* The victim as well as the harasser may be a woman or a man. The victim does not have to be of the opposite sex.
* The harasser can be the victim's supervisor, an agent of the employer, a supervisor in another area, a co-worker, or a non-employee.
* The victim does not have to be the person harassed but could be anyone affected by the offensive conduct.
* Unlawful sexual harassment may occur without economic injury to or discharge of the victim.
* The harasser's conduct must be unwelcome.

It is helpful for the victim to inform the harasser directly that the conduct is unwelcome and must stop. The victim should use any employer complaint mechanism or grievance system available.

When investigating allegations of sexual harassment, EEOC looks at the whole record: the circumstances, such as the nature of the sexual advances, and the context in which the alleged incidents occurred. A determination on the allegations is made from the facts on a case-by-case basis.

Prevention is the best tool to eliminate sexual harassment in the workplace. Employers are encouraged to take steps necessary to prevent sexual harassment from occurring. They should clearly communicate to employees that sexual harassment will not be tolerated. They can do so by providing sexual harassment training to their employees and by establishing an effective complaint or grievance process and taking immediate and appropriate action when an employee complains.

It is also unlawful to retaliate against an individual for opposing employment practices that discriminate based on sex or for filing a discrimination charge, testifying, or participating in any way in an investigation, proceeding, or litigation under Title VII.

http://www.eeoc.gov/types/sexual_harassment.html

[PalindromicBob]

All EEO employers protect against discrimination because of sexual orientation.



http://www.eeoc.gov/types/sexual_harassment.html

Let me ask you this: are you gay?

[coodood]

I think the conclusion we are aproaching is that there is no decent logic to discriminate against gays.

[theOperaGhost]

Let me ask you this: are you gay?

No...

[ShatteredWings]

Jared that's basic sexual harassment. Unfortunately, harassing someone for their sexuality is NOT covered by that, if you read closely. That's written for sexual advances and comments. Not "you're a fucking fag. go die" and "we don't hire gays"

pandromicbob: He doesn't have to be?

[Sage]

I think the conclusion we are aproaching is that there is no decent logic to discriminate against gays.

That's the point I'm trying to make, yes. This thread is an open invitation to prove me wrong.

[theOperaGhost]

Jared that's basic sexual harassment. Unfortunately, harassing someone for their sexuality is NOT covered by that, if you read closely. That's written for sexual advances and comments. Not "you're a fucking fag. go die" and "we don't hire gays"

pandromicbob: He doesn't have to be?

"Unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature constitute sexual harassment when this conduct explicitly or implicitly affects an individual's employment, unreasonably interferes with an individual's work performance, or creates an intimidating, hostile, or offensive work environment."

Yes, harassing someone for their sexuality is covered by it. "You're a fucking fag. go die" and "we don't hire gays" would be included in verbal conduct of a sexual nature that affects an individual's employment and it creates an intimidating, hostile, or offensive work environment.

Although it isn't explicitly stated by the EEOC that sexual orientation is protected, it is implicitly protected. It will soon be explicitly protected as the EEOC and GLOBE are in the process of drafting new standards.

Discrimination of sexual orientation DOES fall under the sexual harassment category.

[tripolar]

Why people don't like gays other than religion. I think its because its different, mostly because some act like (no offense) flamers and real effeminate and its weird to see a guy sound like a girl and do all the hand movements. But the answer you most likely hear from people is there afraid to be checked out by a gay guy. Personally I think if a gay guy likes my looks its a complement but others find it scary.

I don't have a problem with gay people, but some people have the camp voice and act woman like, it's different.

[ShatteredWings]

"Unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature constitute sexual harassment when this conduct explicitly or implicitly affects an individual's employment, unreasonably interferes with an individual's work performance, or creates an intimidating, hostile, or offensive work environment."

Yes, harassing someone for their sexuality is covered by it. "You're a fucking fag. go die" and "we don't hire gays" would be included in verbal conduct of a sexual nature that affects an individual's employment and it creates an intimidating, hostile, or offensive work environment.

Although it isn't explicitly stated by the EEOC that sexual orientation is protected, it is implicitly protected. It will soon be explicitly protected as the EEOC and GLOBE are in the process of drafting new standards.

Discrimination of sexual orientation DOES fall under the sexual harassment category.

While I REALLY DO wish i could agree with your argument, you said yourself it's not speficially stated.

"All men are created equal" implies all humans, including women. But that had to be spefically stated because people take the statement literally.

If it's being drafted to spefically add something, that means it's NOT covered now.


Also, not too long ago, PA passed a law along the lines of "transgendered people aren't protected under hate crime laws, and can be denied jobs because of their choice"(getting a sex change is consitered elective, rather than needed, and i'm not arguing the point on why it's not as it's not really relevent)

It really is sad that it's even up for debate.

[Sage]

The existence of discrimination and/or legal procedures of preventing it is not what we're debating here. The reasoning and justification behind such discrimination is what we are debating. This is falling off topic.

[INFERNO]

Why people don't like gays other than religion. I think its because its different, mostly because some act like (no offense) flamers and real effeminate and its weird to see a guy sound like a girl and do all the hand movements. But the answer you most likely hear from people is there afraid to be checked out by a gay guy. Personally I think if a gay guy likes my looks its a complement but others find it scary.


That's actually an interesting reason, people discriminate due to fear of being seen as attractive. I suppose that has some reflection on the idea that those same people would believe homosexuality is abnormal or unnatural.

This got me thinking though, would heterosexual males be more afraid of being seen as attractive by homosexual males or would heterosexual females be more afraid of being seen as attractive by homosexual females?

[liveyoungdiefast]

Saying homosexuality is unnatural assumes humans aren't part of nature. We are. We're animals, we are a species and all things within our species that occur at mass levels are as natural as what occurs in squirrels at mass levels.

Saying that homosexuals don't reproduce assumes this world needs more reproduction, it doesn't. If the human species lost about half it's numbers over the next few centuries, we'd be much healthier and in much better shape than we are.

Not to mention, millions of heterosexuals have sex with contraception, and many never intend on having kids.

[Modus Operandi]

As said before, because it's abnormal and misunderstood. We don't know the cause, but gays usually have no mental or physical abnormalities.

In short, they are not pitied.

This, I believe, is the reason we don't see discrimination of mental disorders or physical handicaps other than ignorant people making fun of them. We know they are not CAPABLE of normality, whereas it is believed by some that gays are gay by choice, and thus could choose to be normal.

Also, I think homosexuality just frightens certain people. They are scared of the thought of someone of the same gender sexually attracted to them. They just don't think it's(here comes that word again)normal.

[Sapphire]

Saying homosexuality is unnatural assumes humans aren't part of nature. We are. We're animals, we are a species and all things within our species that occur at mass levels are as natural as what occurs in squirrels at mass levels.

Saying that homosexuals don't reproduce assumes this world needs more reproduction, it doesn't. If the human species lost about half it's numbers over the next few centuries, we'd be much healthier and in much better shape than we are.

Not to mention, millions of heterosexuals have sex with contraception, and many never intend on having kids.QFT!

As said before, because it's abnormal and misunderstood. We don't know the cause, but gays usually have no mental or physical abnormalities.

In short, they are not pitied.

This, I believe, is the reason we don't see discrimination of mental disorders or physical handicaps other than ignorant people making fun of them. We know they are not CAPABLE of normality, whereas it is believed by some that gays are gay by choice, and thus could choose to be normal.

Also, I think homosexuality just frightens certain people. They are scared of the thought of someone of the same gender sexually attracted to them. They just don't think it's(here comes that word again)normal.
Mental disorders are abnormal/maladaptive and are actually greatly misunderstood and misrepresented in our society. People suffering with one can expect to be stigmatized against because of a diagnosis they've been given.
Your claim that they aren't discriminated against other than having some ignorant individuals making jokes is complete bullshit.

In addition, the comparison of a person suffering from a mental disorder and a homosexual is disgusting. One is subject to a distressing and often debilitating abnormality while the other is attracted to members of the same sex in the context of benign, consensual adult relationships.

Also, a fear of being hit on by a homosexual is simply a "symptom", as it were, of homophobia and/or insecurities in ones own sexuality. If you are secure in your sexuality and not a homophobe then it wouldn't bother you in the slightest if a homosexual was attracted to you.

[Modus Operandi]

I'm sorry, I really wasn't thinking straight when I posted. You raise good points, and I realize now my comparisons were out of place and wrong.