Is Homosexuality A Sin?

[Ripplemagne]

Is Homosexuality A Sin? (http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=408674623&blogId=508011736) What do you think?

[scuba steve]

fuck no it's perfectly normal experimentation and many orther animal species also go through with it

[ShatteredWings]

If you take the bible literally, yes.

But this leads into
1) According to god, all sin is the same (so murder and lying are on the same level)
2) All sins can be repented [No, i do not mean catholic confession. that's a whooooollllleeeeee 'nother discussion]
and
3) -- this depends how you take scripture -- God wants you in heaven ultimately.

I'm not religious, so frankly, I couldn't give a fuck if it's a sin or not

But hey, there's nothing wrong with having enough knowledge about something you argue against.

[Θάνατος]

If you take the bible literally, yes.

But this leads into
1) According to god, all sin is the same (so murder and lying are on the same level)
2) All sins can be repented [No, i do not mean catholic confession. that's a whooooollllleeeeee 'nother discussion]
and
3) -- this depends how you take scripture -- God wants you in heaven ultimately.

I'm not religious, so frankly, I couldn't give a fuck if it's a sin or not

But hey, there's nothing wrong with having enough knowledge about something you argue against.

Well technically you are right but not all sins are equal.

Read in the bible murder is the only sin that can't be forgiven.

God doesn't expect us to be perfect and has allowed us to use our judgment to make choices. He loves us all no matter what we do and he will forgive us for our sins as longs as we are truly sorry for them.

[Ripplemagne]

1) According to god, all sin is the same (so murder and lying are on the same level)

Where'd you get that from?

[Modus Operandi]

Of course it's not a sin.
Sins are something that are done voluntairly, and I don't think anyone purposely tries to be gay.

[Camazotz]

If you follow the Christian religion, yes. However, it's fair for people to know that there's nothing wrong about being gay. It's in your DNA and you can't help it; many other animals also experience homosexuality.

[ShatteredWings]

Where'd you get that from?

I've read it maybe. Because he's so "pure" or however else it's put (i'm in no mood to be digging up exact quotes) anything wrong is that offputting.

and to the comment about murder being 'unforgivable', i can't think of anything that said that, but my point still stands.

Of course it's not a sin.
Sins are something that are done voluntairly, and I don't think anyone purposely tries to be gay.

Lust is a sin, but no one tries to lust for people....

Here's where I make clear that I do NOT practice religion. I just know a little something about.

[JackOfClubs]

According to the Church, yes. That is one of my main annoyances about the Catholic faith. You do not choose to be homosexual, you just are.

[Ripplemagne]

I've read it maybe. Because he's so "pure" or however else it's put (i'm in no mood to be digging up exact quotes) anything wrong is that offputting.

It's an untruth. Evangelicals have spouted that in an attempt to gain more people to Christianity. However, nothing in the Bible implies that sins are equal. But what is important to note is that all sins draw a bridge between God and us. That's the point that got corrupted into egalitarian sins.

Anyway, did any of you read the article in the first post?

[INFERNO]

This is where I'm somewhat confused on. For starters, it is said that Jesus died on the cross in order to forgive humans of their sins. If homosexuality is a sin and you consequently go to hell for, then that makes Jesus' sacrifice rather pointless.

The issue gets further complicated because it inherently leads to a question of whether or not homosexuality is a choice (and thus one puts themselves above god) or whether it's a result of nature. I don't believe it's one or the other, I believe it's a combination of both as the numerous studies and literature on animal and human behavior tends to show. So for the question to be answered, I find it rather difficult to go with the choice of it being both nature and nurture.

But let's assume that since god made us in his view (take a literal or metaphorical view), we aren't born homosexual and it indeed is a choice. There is one other issue to tackle: does being homosexual put yourself above god or not? Certainly one could be a Christian and still be homosexual but how do you show that you place yourself above god for this?

When someone brings up the idea that being homosexual is a choice and you do put yourself above god, I always question, aren't they doing the same? After all, if they're heterosexual and if homosexuality is a choice I see no reason why heterosexuality wouldn't be a choice also and so they're sinning also.

For the view of it being done by nature (assume it's god), what are we to make out of this? I've heard time and time again by the devout Christians that god puts them through trials and I see no reason why homosexuality wouldn't be a possible trial also. As many claim god tests them, isn't it possible he makes them homosexual in order to test them?

However, there is one other reason why I see this to be a confusing issue. If homosexuality is a sin, then heterosexuality also is a sin but for a different reason. Consider this biblical passage:

And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. (Romans 12:2)

If god tells Christians not to conform to this world, then wouldn't heterosexuality be just that? Also, note the bold part, as that does support the possibility I mentioned above of god making one homosexual in order to test them.

There are of course passages claiming that one man shouldn't lie with another man. Well, this simply says homosexual sex is a sin but not the sexual orientation. Other passages say don't lust over another man. That simply says homosexual lust is a sin but not the actual sexual orientation.

[Ripplemagne]

...I guess not.

[Atonement]

This is where I'm somewhat confused on. For starters, it is said that Jesus died on the cross in order to forgive humans of their sins. If homosexuality is a sin and you consequently go to hell for, then that makes Jesus' sacrifice rather pointless.

Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus.
"

The issue gets further complicated because it inherently leads to a question of whether or not homosexuality is a choice (and thus one puts themselves above god) or whether it's a result of nature. I don't believe it's one or the other, I believe it's a combination of both as the numerous studies and literature on animal and human behavior tends to show. So for the question to be answered, I find it rather difficult to go with the choice of it being both nature and nurture.

I agree on this point.


But let's assume that since god made us in his view (take a literal or metaphorical view), we aren't born homosexual and it indeed is a choice. There is one other issue to tackle: does being homosexual put yourself above god or not? Certainly one could be a Christian and still be homosexual but how do you show that you place yourself above god for this?

No. You sinning doesn't put you above God at all, but I'm someone that doesn't believe homosexuality is a sin.


When someone brings up the idea that being homosexual is a choice and you do put yourself above god, I always question, aren't they doing the same? After all, if they're heterosexual and if homosexuality is a choice I see no reason why heterosexuality wouldn't be a choice also and so they're sinning also.

Mmmmmhm


For the view of it being done by nature (assume it's god), what are we to make out of this? I've heard time and time again by the devout Christians that god puts them through trials and I see no reason why homosexuality wouldn't be a possible trial also. As many claim god tests them, isn't it possible he makes them homosexual in order to test them?

Well, in the theory, anything could be a test. Perhaps, hair colour could be a test. Itswho you are.


However, there is one other reason why I see this to be a confusing issue. If homosexuality is a sin, then heterosexuality also is a sin but for a different reason. Consider this biblical passage:

And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. (Romans 12:2)

If god tells Christians not to conform to this world, then wouldn't heterosexuality be just that? Also, note the bold part, as that does support the possibility I mentioned above of god making one homosexual in order to test them.

There are of course passages claiming that one man shouldn't lie with another man. Well, this simply says homosexual sex is a sin but not the sexual orientation. Other passages say don't lust over another man. That simply says homosexual lust is a sin but not the actual sexual orientation.

You're spot on the orientation and you ahve an interesting point in the passage.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Heres where I am on it. The hebrew word of homosexual also just means sexually unnatual. Which, the word, actually doesn't mean homosexuality, but two men on eachother. So, the passage in Leviticus that we are all familiar with, "Thou shalt not lie with another man as with a woman." or whatever translation you want to use. This passage refers to a pagan ritual that was supposed to be a giant FUCK ALL to God. So, this passage was given to the Levites ( I think) to stop Paganism. Just like in Leviticus it says not to cut your hair because they would shave pagan symbols in their beards, and no tatoos because it would be pagan symbols. I don't want to have gay sex to worship pagan Gods, hell, it could be God worship in a way if you get tricky. So, it regards Paganism, not homosexuality.

[Sage]

Sin, yes, wrong, no.

[dstnyisurs]

There are some people that are entirly too smart.
My opinion is that The Bible is written (and we must remember this) by God's followers and by God's people. It is NOT written by Jesus or God. There are going to be mistakes and it is going to be biased by what is considered right or wrong at the time among the people. They believed a lot of things we know now that aren't true, yet here we are following the word of this book written thousands of years ago with obviously obsolete rules and customs we don't follow nowadays. It's fine to believe in God - believe in God all you want! I encourage it! Love Him and follow Him faithfully - I sure do. But it doesn't mean you have to take into account ancient customs to follow Him. It just means that you have to give God all your love and all of your faith and trust Him to never let you get in harms way.
Thus I believe homosexuality is not wrong, or bisexuality, or premarital sex, or transexuality, or anything of the sort.

[MoveAlong]

I don't care what this popular book that other people are interested in says. I like men. I like hugging them and would love to kiss them and love them and just everything. I honestly don't care whether it's a sin. As long as you don't fuck with me. I'm going to do men anyways.

[redcar]

According to the teachings of my religion, Catholicism, its a sin. Simple as that.
Times change but religions tend to remain static. So according to the Church I am going to hell... and my God I am going to have fun getting there. :)

[deadpie]

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)


I guess that clears everything up.

[dstnyisurs]

Did you even read the article, Deadpie?

[deadpie]

I don't think a book should tell you whats right and wrong.
Sin is just a word anyways.

[junkie]

according to my believes,yes it's a sin.

[Ripplemagne]

...Kay. I give up.

[mrmcdonaldduck]

the catholic church alow gay priests, so i guess it isnt a sin.
anyway we are all sinners so it doesnt really matter.

[themanwhoneverwould]

If sexual orientation is in our Genes, and god designed us and our genes. Then SURLY god can't complain that people aren't heterosexual when he made them that way!

That would be like me drawing on a sheet of paper, and only allowing clean pieces of paper into heaven. then banishing it to hell because it has my pens ink on it.

[theOperaGhost]

I don't think a book should tell you whats right and wrong.
Sin is just a word anyways.

So we shouldn't have written laws?

[Atonement]

Heres a thread I did a while back about homosexuality in the bible, its not like your article, but it just throws stuff out there.

http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=28090

[Antares]

If it is a sin then 1/10 Chrisitians should be put to death.

However, god loves all of us correct?
And we havent died from him yet...

so I say keep living!

I personally don't believe in that hypocritical sctuff that is in the Bible.

For all we know some old pope guy who hated the world wrote it.

[Demonic Angel]

There are some people that are entirly too smart.
My opinion is that The Bible is written (and we must remember this) by God's followers and by God's people. It is NOT written by Jesus or God. There are going to be mistakes and it is going to be biased by what is considered right or wrong at the time among the people. They believed a lot of things we know now that aren't true, yet here we are following the word of this book written thousands of years ago with obviously obsolete rules and customs we don't follow nowadays. It's fine to believe in God - believe in God all you want! I encourage it! Love Him and follow Him faithfully - I sure do. But it doesn't mean you have to take into account ancient customs to follow Him. It just means that you have to give God all your love and all of your faith and trust Him to never let you get in harms way.
Thus I believe homosexuality is not wrong, or bisexuality, or premarital sex, or transexuality, or anything of the sort.

I totally agree. Jesus wasn't around when they wrote the bible. God wasn't telling them what to write word for word. Yes, some stuff in the bible can be relied on, but much of it is just something that was written a long time ago, and really it's those people's point of view. The bible was written by humans, and therefore flawed.
I am a Catholic, and I do not think that homosexuality is a sin. How can loving someone be a sin?

[Ripplemagne]

Without using my article, can any of you justify that it's not a sin with the actual Bible? Because you all seem to be basing your belief that it's not a sin on your own thoughts rather than the Bible. And as the Bible is the cornerstone of Christianity, it's illogical to call yourself a Christian when, in reality, what you believe is your own virtues.

I personally don't believe in that hypocritical sctuff that is in the Bible.

What hypocritical stuff?

[Rutherford The Brave]

So we shouldn't have written laws?

Well heres where we run into a problem we need a set of laws that govern society So we should. Yet, you cannot really rely on a set of laws written by a bunch of people whos evidence and supposed "Eyewitness" accounts can never be really right. We dont technically need the laws of the bible.

[Antares]

What hypocritical stuff?

I think that the bible and religion in general is very contradicting. Even more contradicting in the fact that people...worship this book and these teachings yet go around and touch kids.

The contradicting part is...
"Love thy neighbor"
and like, be nice to everyone, etc.
yet they have

"We shall kill you if you sleep with a man"

I know that was kidna weak as a point because i dont know every single inch of the bible but my point is, gods supposed to love you through thick and then yet, when he created you...he created you gay. and then that automatically instills hate in you?

how does that work.
He created and loves you...yet he told you not to be gay...yet he made you gay...

it just doesnt make sense and i htink its contradicting and hypocritical. not necessary just the bible, but to religion as a whole.

[Atonement]

I think that the bible and religion in general is very contradicting. Even more contradicting in the fact that people...worship this book and these teachings yet go around and touch kids.

The contradicting part is...
"Love thy neighbor"
and like, be nice to everyone, etc.
yet they have

"We shall kill you if you sleep with a man"

I know that was kidna weak as a point because i dont know every single inch of the bible but my point is, gods supposed to love you through thick and then yet, when he created you...he created you gay. and then that automatically instills hate in you?

how does that work.
He created and loves you...yet he told you not to be gay...yet he made you gay...

it just doesnt make sense and i htink its contradicting and hypocritical. not necessary just the bible, but to religion as a whole.

The faith isn't hypocritical, the people that run it can be. All people make mistakes. Its human nature. But, Christianity is not a set of rules, but more so a guideline for reaching perfection and pleasing Christ. God is real and alive and loves all of his children. He loves even those that protest around saying he doesn't exist. God is merciful too, he knows we have flaws and expects us to mess up, despite how it hurts him. But, over all, God just wants to see us live and walk in a life to be what he wants us to be, for him. And I think everyone should strive to do such.

[Ripplemagne]

I think that the bible and religion in general is very contradicting. Even more contradicting in the fact that people...worship this book and these teachings yet go around and touch kids.

The contradicting part is...
"Love thy neighbor"
and like, be nice to everyone, etc.
yet they have

"We shall kill you if you sleep with a man"

I know that was kidna weak as a point because i dont know every single inch of the bible but my point is, gods supposed to love you through thick and then yet, when he created you...he created you gay. and then that automatically instills hate in you?

how does that work.
He created and loves you...yet he told you not to be gay...yet he made you gay...

it just doesnt make sense and i htink its contradicting and hypocritical. not necessary just the bible, but to religion as a whole.

Have you ever listened to "What A Wonderful World" by Louis Armstrong? Well, here's something I think you should listen to: Click here. (http://www.lovingbags.com/denise/House1/What%20a%20Wonderful%20World.mp3)

[Antares]

I don't understand :P

I know the song but I don't understand the point lol

[Ripplemagne]

The point is that you can't judge something by the people involved with it. Saying that the world, a religion, a philosophical theory, whatever is bad because there are bad people in it is asinine.

[Antares]

The point is that you can't judge something by the people involved with it. Saying that the world, a religion, a philosophical theory, whatever is bad because there are bad people in it is asinine.

I am not judging it by the people nor did I say it is bad because of the people or solely because of the people.

I said religion, as a whole is bad.

[Ripplemagne]

Why?

[Antares]

Because as I have said above it is hypocritical and contradicting but in addition to that I think its history shows that it has a lot of pain and anguish over it.
The non-separation of church and state, the numerous wars, etc. I think those show it.
Religion has a bad track record and as I sit here and imagine the world without it, or history without it, I think we would me a much more peaceful as well as happier society.
IMO

[Ripplemagne]

So, it's contradictory and hypocritical because it's bad and it's bad because it's contradictory and hypocritical? You do know-- Know what? Not going to touch this one.

[Antares]

...what do you want? Religion has caused problems time and time again and the world and history would probably be better without it.

Also, religion is hypocritical and contradictory.

Clear?

[Kinetic]

according to the bible yes it is
according to most people: yes it is:
according to me:ehh not so much
People shud love who they want and shud be able to find love in who or whatever they want

[sebbie]

One quick question

Is this discussion from the Christian viewpoint ?

[overcome.]

I think there are many perspectives to look at it from. Religion is the first. A lot of religions frown upon homosexuality, and don't believe it's a way to live your life. I have respect for people who are religious, however I am not. I'm extremely spiritual, which doesn't dictate my life to the degree where I couldn't engage with a certain gender sexually. Not that I choose to anyway, I'm straight.

Personally, I think that whatever makes somebody happy should be respected (within reason, I mean obviously not stuff like drug abuse or alcoholism). In my eyes, although it's not my personal choice, I still respect somebody elses wishes, I definitely do not regard it as a sin. Life is about peace and happiness, and health. If you're happy with another man/woman, then good for you. People who are against this sort of thing tend to stereotypically be those who are pretty narrow minded and are probably unhappy with their own lives or insecure, feeling the need to put that negativity onto others. Shame, for them.

[Ripplemagne]

...what do you want? Religion has caused problems time and time again and the world and history would probably be better without it.

No. Humans have. Religion was just a tool to do it with.

By the way, I hope you realize that atheism is a religion and has been used in quite the same manner.

Also, religion is hypocritical and contradictory.

Find. Me. Where. The. Bible. Contradicts. Itself.

People are hypocritical and contradictory.

according to the bible yes it is

*Facepalm* Alright, did you read the article I posted in the first post?

One quick question

Is this discussion from the Christian viewpoint ?

One quick question

Is this discussion from the Christian viewpoint ?

[Antares]

So, to find you the contradictions I used google.
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html
That shows you some contradictions. I looked in the bible here and I trust they didn't edit the verses.

Atheism is the belief that their is no god. You worship no god. So if you want to define that as a religion go ahead. But I think generally people that are atheist assosiate themselves with not being religious and having no religion in their lives.

[Ripplemagne]

Atheism is the belief that their is no god. You worship no god. So if you want to define that as a religion go ahead. But I think generally people that are atheist assosiate themselves with not being religious and having no religion in their lives.

I don't care what people generally think. What's fact is fact. (http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=408674623&blogId=447498177)

So, to find you the contradictions I used google.
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.co...a/by_name.html
That shows you some contradictions. I looked in the bible here and I trust they didn't edit the verses.

Ahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Wait, wait...


Ahahahahahahahahahaha. Okay...

Okay... I think I...


AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

[Bluearmy]

Yes, it is a sin

No, it is not a mistranlation in the Bible

Yes, you will burn in hell for eternity for it

[dstnyisurs]

Yes, it is a sin

No, it is not a mistranlation in the Bible

Yes, you will burn in hell for eternity for it
Want to explain that reasoning?
Because if I'm burning in hell for all enternity, I might as well get you riled up so you can join me for violating the ten commandments with anger.

[Ripplemagne]

Yes, it is a sin

No, it is not a mistranlation in the Bible

Yes, you will burn in hell for eternity for it

How about debunking my article then?

[INFERNO]

Religion has caused problems time and time again and the world and history would probably be better without it.

Not true. Religion is akin to, say, quantum physics or molecular biology. It's a tool and the tool isn't inherently good or bad. People use the tool in different ways, some in good, some in bad ways.


Also, religion is hypocritical and contradictory.

If you look over a historical timeline, science is hypocritical, contradictory and at times completely illogical. Does that mean we should toss it? No. People use religion however they want, they believe in which parts of a belief they want.

Yes, it is a sin

No, it is not a mistranlation in the Bible

Yes, you will burn in hell for eternity for it

Let me pull one very nice quote that shows something that's a problem for you: you're off to hell also but for a different reason.

“The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21)

But let me now ask you something to think about before we continue to play the game of damning everyone to hell. I'm sure you know of the thing called the Holy Trinity. One part of that trinity is the Holy Spirit and you can find time and time again, throughout the bible, it claims that the Holy Spirit is within us. When one goes up for judgment, it's debatable what you're judged on: your own soul/spirit or the holy spirit. Either way, the holy spirit is part of god so if one is to go off to hell, then part of god is also going off to hell. However, it is said that god is in heaven and not hell and it's also said god hates sin (as unusual as that sometimes sounds). So tell me, before you continue damning people to hell, would god send people to hell when people contain an element of him, thereby putting part of god, bit by bit, into hell?

[Rainstorm]

There are many vantage points to look at whether Homosexuality is a sin or not. I consider these three as mine. The Bible, The People, and My own Beliefs.

First off, the Bible. Technically, the Bible does state that it is indeed a sin, and that those that are homosexual will burn in hell for the sin. However, the Bible is based off the ideas and beliefs of the people, not God, or Jesus. The people who wrote the bible believed this, and I consider it as their beliefs. However, if we are to follow the ideas written by people thousands of years ago, I then believe we are slaves to the church.

Then, we have to look at the People in general. Many people view Homosexuality as a sin, or just simply evil. They believe that they, because they are straight, have the rights to push their ideas upon the homosexual community.

That is plain wrong. The churches have, in my mind, brainwashed many people into believing that homosexuals are tainting our soil with their ideas, and that they shouldn't even excist. It reminds me of Hitler in World War 2, and i just think it's wrong.

In my opinions, I don't believe it is a sin, a crime, or wrong to be homosexual. I am Bi, and I don't care if everybody else in the world shuns me because of it. I am who I am, and not one person is going to change me. Not the Pope, not some priest, not my parents, no one.

[Raynes]

Homosexuality is not a choice, nor is it an abomination. This type of Christian bigotry is one of the primary reasons I left Christianity, and avoid it like the plague. As a non-Christian, I have no concept of Sin. Sin is a Christian creation, designed to keep it's followers following a standard set of morals. Sin isn't needed for this purpose, and it's unnecessary and outdated.

Sin is a sin. Modern society doesn't need sin just to be moral.
As a Wiccan, I try to live my life following something called the 'Wiccan Rede', which states, "An' it harm none, do what thou wilt." or "An' ye harm none, do what ye will." which means, as long as it harms no one including yourself, you're free to do what you wish. It's as simple as a code of morals can be, yet, it limits in all the ways that a well-rounded individual should be limited.

[INFERNO]

First off, the Bible. Technically, the Bible does state that it is indeed a sin, and that those that are homosexual will burn in hell for the sin. However, the Bible is based off the ideas and beliefs of the people, not God, or Jesus. The people who wrote the bible believed this, and I consider it as their beliefs. However, if we are to follow the ideas written by people thousands of years ago, I then believe we are slaves to the church.

The part I'd be careful on here is that the bible doesn't specifically say the sexual orientation of homosexuality is sinful. It says things such as homosexual sex or homosexual lust is sinful but nothing to my knowledge of the sexual orientation being sinful.


Then, we have to look at the People in general. Many people view Homosexuality as a sin, or just simply evil. They believe that they, because they are straight, have the rights to push their ideas upon the homosexual community.

For the people that promote the idea of homosexuality being sinful, they generally are simply adhering to their beliefs (i.e. what is said and interpreted from the bible). So I don't think they're damning homosexuals and tells them that they're sinful simply because they're heterosexual. Some people may think along those lines but then it begs the question, are they calling the homosexuals sinful or are they simply expressing their dislike from non-religious reasons?

[Ripplemagne]

Thread derailed by stupidity. *Leaves*

[thedudeman]

So we shouldn't have written laws?

some of them, no

[liveyoungdiefast]

Sin doesn't exist.

[Ripplemagne]

Sin doesn't exist.

Neither does your brain, obviously.

[liveyoungdiefast]

Sad that a potentially good debate has been invalidated by an immature ad hominem attack.

[Aves]

Well from my knowledge, Homosexuality as a relationship, is not. But homosexual sex is. I could be wrong on this, but that is what I know and believe.

[Ripplemagne]

Sad that a potentially good debate has been invalidated by an immature ad hominem attack.

No. It's sad that you feel the unrelenting need to spew your pseudo-intellectual, overzealous, piss-mommy-and-daddy-off views on in a topic that has nothing to do with it. No one asked you for your opinion on religion or if sins exist or not. The topic is: from a Judeo-Christian/biblical standpoint, is homosexuality a sin?

What's sad is a self-aggrandizing, militant atheist who can't let a topic outside of his views continue without stuffing his projected ideologies of the world upon the discussion to look superior.

If you don't like what this topic is about, jump ship to another thread. Now, get that crap out of my epic and plz2goawaynao.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

I'll just give you a straight-up, bottom line answer here.

Homosexuality IS NOT WRONG. IT IS NOT EVIL. IT IS NORMAL.


Now... a lot of RELIGIONS say that it is wrong and evil... and the only reason why is because "magic man in the sky says so". Sorry, that's not gonna cut it for me.

Did I mention I'm an atheist? lmfao

Sure you can call homosexuality a sin... but sin is bullshit anyways and only "exists" to people who are afraid of the judgment of some divine being. So tough.

[ackmedsgirl666]

i belive in it even thought most of todays society does not and thinks its wrong just as christians( like my parents) thinks its sexually immoral
they raised me that way and thats why i feel badly about my choice of sexuality

[ThatCanadianGuy]

i belive in it even thought most of todays society does not and thinks its wrong just as christians( like my parents) thinks its sexually immoral
they raised me that way and thats why i feel badly about my choice of sexuality

Sexuality is NOT a choice?!?!

When does someone CHOOSE to be homosexual, or choose to be heterosexual. That's just ridiculous. Your sexuality was determined before you were even born, and you shouldn't have to worry about "changing it" since there's nothing wrong!

[theOperaGhost]

I'll just give you a straight-up, bottom line answer here.

Homosexuality IS NOT WRONG. IT IS NOT EVIL. IT IS NORMAL.


Now... a lot of RELIGIONS say that it is wrong and evil... and the only reason why is because "magic man in the sky says so". Sorry, that's not gonna cut it for me.

Did I mention I'm an atheist? lmfao

Sure you can call homosexuality a sin... but sin is bullshit anyways and only "exists" to people who are afraid of the judgment of some divine being. So tough.

James, although I agree it is not wrong nor is it evil, I don't think it is normal. Evolutionarily, it can't be normal, because that would just fuck with evolution in general. Evolutionary psychology suggests that it is our instinct to reproduce, and obviously in a homosexual relationship, that is impossible.

I wouldn't go so far as to say it is normal.

[Ripplemagne]

I'll just give you a straight-up, bottom line answer here.

Homosexuality IS NOT WRONG. IT IS NOT EVIL. IT IS NORMAL.


Now... a lot of RELIGIONS say that it is wrong and evil... and the only reason why is because "magic man in the sky says so". Sorry, that's not gonna cut it for me.

Did I mention I'm an atheist? lmfao

Sure you can call homosexuality a sin... but sin is bullshit anyways and only "exists" to people who are afraid of the judgment of some divine being. So tough.

See the post right before yours.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

James, although I agree it is not wrong nor is it evil, I don't think it is normal. Evolutionarily, it can't be normal, because that would just fuck with evolution in general. Evolutionary psychology suggests that it is our instinct to reproduce, and obviously in a homosexual relationship, that is impossible.

I wouldn't go so far as to say it is normal.

Homosexuality occurs in thousands of different animals. Homosexuality is documented in birds, mammals, reptiles, etc. Homosexuality is a part of evolution, otherwise it wouldn't exist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals

UZWqQNRAoKY

[theOperaGhost]

Homosexuality occurs in thousands of different animals. Homosexuality is documented in birds, mammals, reptiles, etc. Homosexuality is a part of evolution, otherwise it wouldn't exist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals

UZWqQNRAoKY

Natural selection, I guess. Keep certain people from reproducing...for whatever reason.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

Natural selection, I guess. Keep certain people from reproducing...for whatever reason.

By stating it that way you still give it an aire of negativity. It's called antagonistic evolution in some cases, but the point is that homosexuality is natural, and there is absolutely nothing morally wrong about it. It's only the "wrong" way to produce a baby. It's not the "wrong" way to love another person.

[theOperaGhost]

By stating it that way you still give it an aire of negativity. It's called antagonistic evolution in some cases, but the point is that homosexuality is natural, and there is absolutely nothing morally wrong about it. It's only the "wrong" way to produce a baby. It's not the "wrong" way to love another person.

I actually agree with this post. I agree that it is not the wrong way to love another person...love whoever you want...nothing wrong with that. I also don't see anything morally wrong with it...what would be morally wrong about it?

However, I do continue to find it unnatural, since I view sex as reproduction, not affection.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

I actually agree with this post. I agree that it is not the wrong way to love another person...love whoever you want...nothing wrong with that. I also don't see anything morally wrong with it...what would be morally wrong about it?

However, I do continue to find it unnatural, since I view sex as reproduction, not affection.

It's natural. It occurs in NATURE (all kinds of animals). Isn't that the definition of natural? It happens naturally. NATURAL. I can't say it plainer than that. If not it would be... supernatural :D

[theOperaGhost]

It's natural. It occurs in NATURE (all kinds of animals). Isn't that the definition of natural? It happens naturally. NATURAL. I can't say it plainer than that. If not it would be... supernatural :D

Ok, then I guess I'm looking for a different word. If you're too ignorant to understand what I mean when I say that, that is pretty impressive, but I really just think you're arguing this for the purpose of arguing.

Actually, this goes back to the word normal. It might happen in nature, but it doesn't normally happen, as a normal sexual (not loving) relationship is one that can produce children.

Now I also find your comparison to animals is somewhat irrelevant. Animals don't "love" like we do (as far as I know, I don't study animals).

Now what this debate really needs to straighten out is this...is the act of homosexual intercourse what we are debating? Or are we debating if it is wrong to love someone of the same sex?

Homosexual love...normal, healthy, etc...
Homosexual intercourse...I don't consider it normal.

[INFERNO]

Sin doesn't exist.

And your argument to support your stance is?

Sad that a potentially good debate has been invalidated by an immature ad hominem attack.

Debate? You didn't give any argument to support your stance. Where is the debate from you?

Sexuality is NOT a choice?!?!

When does someone CHOOSE to be homosexual, or choose to be heterosexual. That's just ridiculous. Your sexuality was determined before you were even born, and you shouldn't have to worry about "changing it" since there's nothing wrong!

There's a component of nature and a component of environment involved in determining one's sexuality. It's not purely genetic nor is it purely environmental.

[The Boy Genius]

IF god has problem with love in the world then he really needs to see some sort of cosmic psychologist

[Sage]

Ok, then I guess I'm looking for a different word. If you're too ignorant to understand what I mean when I say that, that is pretty impressive, but I really just think you're arguing this for the purpose of arguing.

Actually, this goes back to the word normal. It might happen in nature, but it doesn't normally happen, as a normal sexual (not loving) relationship is one that can produce children.

Now I also find your comparison to animals is somewhat irrelevant. Animals don't "love" like we do (as far as I know, I don't study animals).

Now what this debate really needs to straighten out is this...is the act of homosexual intercourse what we are debating? Or are we debating if it is wrong to love someone of the same sex?

Homosexual love...normal, healthy, etc...
Homosexual intercourse...I don't consider it normal.

If you viewed the video more closely, you'd realize that the frequency of homosexual intercourse is as high as 50% or more in some populations. I'm pretty sure that makes it normal.

[Antares]

Ahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Wait, wait...


Ahahahahahahahahahaha. Okay...

Okay... I think I...


AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Okay, so you laugh when I find you the contradictions you ask for?
Is this because I actually came through or do you think this is somehow funny (which I don't think it is or can ever be perceived to be)...

If you look over a historical timeline, science is hypocritical, contradictory and at times completely illogical. Does that mean we should toss it? No. People use religion however they want, they believe in which parts of a belief they want.

Science is hypocritical...until something is proven.
Nothing is true in science until it has become proven. After the hypothesis is proven then it is fact.
So if you want to say, that it is hypocritical, take out the actual hypotheses.

People use parts of religion that they want?
Isn't that kinda...going against your god?

I mean, if god really...did all the stuff he says he was gonna do, half the "followers" he has would be dead.
God, follow up on your word dude!
Well I guess one could argue that you dont know what happens until you die....ehh...

[Ripplemagne]

Okay, so you laugh when I find you the contradictions you ask for?
Is this because I actually came through or do you think this is somehow funny (which I don't think it is or can ever be perceived to be)...

Oh, no. I just find the source you used to "prove" that the Bible contradicts itself to be hysterical. It wasn't anything directed toward you, personally.

[Antares]

Did you at least get what you wanted out of the link?

[theOperaGhost]

Okay, so you laugh when I find you the contradictions you ask for?
Is this because I actually came through or do you think this is somehow funny (which I don't think it is or can ever be perceived to be)...



Science is hypocritical...until something is proven.
Nothing is true in science until it has become proven. After the hypothesis is proven then it is fact.
So if you want to say, that it is hypocritical, take out the actual hypotheses.

People use parts of religion that they want?
Isn't that kinda...going against your god?

I mean, if god really...did all the stuff he says he was gonna do, half the "followers" he has would be dead.
God, follow up on your word dude!
Well I guess one could argue that you dont know what happens until you die....ehh...

No theory can be proven to be fact. You would need infinite experimentation to prove something to be 100% fact. Nothing in science ever leaves the theory stage.

If you viewed the video more closely, you'd realize that the frequency of homosexual intercourse is as high as 50% or more in some populations. I'm pretty sure that makes it normal.

In my opinion, normal sexual intercourse involves the possibility of reproduction, thus I don't find homosexual intercourse to be normal since there is no possibility of reproduction.

[Whisper]

In my opinion, normal sexual intercourse involves the possibility of reproduction, thus I don't find homosexual intercourse to be normal since there is no possibility of reproduction.

sexuality has played a huge role in shaping who we are as a people both biologically and sociologically

I think your dumbing it down a lil to much hun

[INFERNO]

Science is hypocritical...until something is proven.
Nothing is true in science until it has become proven. After the hypothesis is proven then it is fact.

Nope, it's still not a fact as the hypothesis is not proven to be absolutely correct. In hypothesis testing, to keep it simple, you have a null and an alternative hypothesis. Regardless of which one plays out, the scientific experiment's conclusions aren't proven to be factual. You seem to be distorting the idea of science because NOTHING in science can be proven since we don't know everything there is to know. Once we do, then certainly we can say something is proven to be true or false. Until then, scientific facts are merely things that are true or false for the amount of knowledge that we have. Outside of that knowledge, it may not be true or false but we assume it is because we have not found something to show otherwise but it doesn't mean it is necessarily true or false.


People use parts of religion that they want?
Isn't that kinda...going against your god?

How is that going against god? As long as you follow the general morals, worship him, etc..., then you're technically following him. If you want to put it in terms of science, people simply adhere to the scientific theories that they have reason to suspect are correct while ignoring the ones they suspect to be incorrect. Religion is no different, only that the rationale you use is the interpretation of whatever passage and your faith.


In my opinion, normal sexual intercourse involves the possibility of reproduction

Why does it have to involve the possibility of reproduction? What if a sterile male had sex with a female? There's the male-female sex but no possibility of reproduction, so why would that be considered abnormal?

[theOperaGhost]

Actually, you make a good point with your last statement. I have no rebuttal.

[Ripplemagne]

Did you at least get what you wanted out of the link?

While I've seen these arguments several times in the past, I will give you that you at least tried. I'm sorry for laughing or if I made you feel uncomfortable.

[Strength]

According to the bible, yes it is.

[Antares]

While I've seen these arguments several times in the past, I will give you that you at least tried. I'm sorry for laughing or if I made you feel uncomfortable.

So you did get what you wanted out of the site?

[Ripplemagne]

So you did get what you wanted out of the site?

No, but I respect the effort you gave. :P

[Antares]

Well...the contradictions are in plain sight.
Not exactly sure what you want.

[Ripplemagne]

I've seen all of those supposed "contradictions" before. And I've seen them all debunked, refuted and explained well within the realm of reason. :P

[Antares]

I've seen all of those supposed "contradictions" before. And I've seen them all debunked, refuted and explained well within the realm of reason. :P

Well those are in plain sight.
I mean, I don't think it can get any more clearer than that.
Those are actual contradictions and I would love to see them all 'debunked, refuted, and explained'.

Until that happens and they are all 'within the realm of reason', I stand by my statements.

[Ortizitthisone]

I'm a Christian, and I'm still on the fence about this one. I don't believe that it's wrong. I know plenty of people who are gay and bisexual, and I respect them 100% as human beings and as friends. I mean, I've even experimented sexually with the same sex. I don't know that it's a sin, but I do know that it's not wrong. I also know that if it is a sin, it can be forgiven, like all other sins, through repentance and through faith in Jesus.

[Ripplemagne]

Well those are in plain sight.
I mean, I don't think it can get any more clearer than that.
Those are actual contradictions and I would love to see them all 'debunked, refuted, and explained'.

Until that happens and they are all 'within the realm of reason', I stand by my statements.

If I ever get exceedingly bored, I'll go through them.

[Antares]

That'd be nice :)

[vito22andolini]

The whole sin thing is bullshit so i guess thats alright

i dont just say that cause i dont give a hell about religion and their st**id laws but i just think its perfectly normal , i mean , if your happy that way , cool

[Ripplemagne]

The whole sin thing is bullshit so i guess thats alright

i dont just say that cause i dont give a hell about religion and their st**id laws but i just think its perfectly normal , i mean , if your happy that way , cool

Too bad atheism is a religion, huh?

[MykeSoBe]

I'm a very devout Roman Catholic and proud to be so (I pray the Rosary every morning and every evening), and according to our religion, yes, it is a sin. You are supposed to use your dick only for procreation, and in that, only with women.

Even with the desire for another of the same sex, it's homosexuality AND lust.

But do not think for one second that I am against homosexual people. The Church may be against the act but we love everyone equally.

[Ripplemagne]

You don't even question what your Priest tells you, do you? Ah, that doctrine of ex cathedra. No worries. I understand where you're coming from because I was baptised and raised Roman Catholic as well. In fact, I'm Italian-American as well.

[DecemberRain]

in my opinion no.

[Rutherford The Brave]

in my opinion no.

Care to elaberate Hailey?

[Bougainvillea]

I think the only "sins" would have to be things like murder, rape, stealing, etc. But I don't think someone's personal preference should be considered a sin.

I'm not even religious.

So, no.
I don't think homosexuality is a sin.

[sebbie]

Well from what I know from Christian teachings homosexualtiy is a sin. This is not just a Christian view, the other two Abrahamic faiths [Islam , Judaism] believe the same

However whether all sins are equal is another debate all together.

[Ripplemagne]

Sebbie, you didn't read my article?

[Giles]

If it is, then so many people i know are fucked...

[sebbie]

Sebbie, you didn't read my article?

Yes I did read your article. When I have some more time I will post why I would interpret it to be a sin :).

[Rutherford The Brave]

What confuses me the most is the bible says that you need to love one another if I'm correct? So why does it matter what degree of love it is and what gender the person is if we are all doing gods word? Its quite mind boggling.

[Ripplemagne]

Yes I did read your article. When I have some more time I will post why I would interpret it to be a sin

Ah. Fair enough. I look forward to reading it. :P

[ebony15]

What confuses me the most is the bible says that you need to love one another if I'm correct? So why does it matter what degree of love it is and what gender the person is if we are all doing gods word? Its quite mind boggling.


*It meant there, that were to love one another as we love ourself. It's about making peace with everyone... and do you think HATE and Anger are solutions to end the mess in our world? I dont think so..

It does matter on the degree of love. Everything has a purpose...

MEN ARE FOR WOMEN..
WOMEN ARE FOR MEN..

you can love one another as brothers and sisters..:)

[Rutherford The Brave]

*It meant there, that were to love one another as we love ourself. It's about making peace with everyone... and do you think HATE and Anger are solutions to end the mess in our world? I dont think so..

It does matter on the degree of love. Everything has a purpose...

MEN ARE FOR WOMEN..
WOMEN ARE FOR MEN..

you can love one another as brothers and sisters..:)



Yet it never specifies how it goes, which means that you can be allowed to love another the way you would love the opposite. Did you realize that homo and mono are realatively close in the thesarus? I don't know leaves alot to be question.

[sebbie]

The bible does not directly state "Homosexuality is a sin" it is also not a sin to be tempted by homosexuality. [Jesus was tempted in Matthew 4 , however he did not give in to sin]

How I derive my views is concerning sexuality outside of marriage. Now is this a sin?

One could interpret that it is as Paul says :

Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband. 1 Corinthians 7:2

Now in Genesis 1 God creates man kind as male and female

Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

From this passage you can see that: God created them in His own image, as Male and female. Then, He blessed them and gave them the purpose for the male/female: Which is to multiply.

So in order to remain true to the creation, God has created us to fit His purpose and design as male and female. So, when they[Adam and Eve] were sinless and blameless, they were male and female and it wasn't until AFTER the apple incident that sin entered the world. Homosexuality goes against this purpose.

Now what degree of sin is homosexuality, when considering what degree a sin is Paul makes a point in Romans:

Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;

All sins are equally bad, because sin is any kind of behaviour or action that separates us from God.

NOTE I AM NOT LOOKING TO OFFEND ANYONE WITH THIS POST MERELY STATING AN OPINION, I DO NOT CARE WHAT SEXUALITY PEOPLE ARE, AND CERTAINLY DO NOT IMPOSE THIS VIEW ON ANY OTHERS.

Edit: I might come and add a bit more to this post to clear up some things when I have time.

[The Boy Genius]

I just dont under stand. Why would god object to love in the world, if being with a man makes you happy and you are also a man how is that wrong? Another thing the catholic church preaches peace and love yet when a man shows another man the peace and love usually reserved for woman he is a horrible sinner

[Sage]

It does matter on the degree of love.

So you're saying the millions of gay couples in the world don't really love eachother, they're just playing a prank on us, right? Riiiight?

Everything has a purpose...

Not really, the human mind only gives things meanings and purposes to better understand all the information coming in.

[Scarred]

As stated through many posts on here, the Abrahamic religions strictly teach that Homosexuality is indeed a sin. Many churches have become more open to Homosexuality through the times but the teaching remains. As a Christian we are taught to accept people for who they are. This teaching however conflicts with Homosexuality through the eyes of many homosexuals and others, who believe Homosexuality is a built-in part of a person's character.

I am accepting of all people. I believe in what I believe, you believe what you want to believe. It has no direct effect on my life, and it is a life decision you yourself have to make. Many will argue it is built in your genetics at birth. I don't have any background information on that argument and will not say its true or untrue.

There have been cases where homosexuals have been said to have "Converted" to Heterosexuality through Christ. Again, not much background information on my part. But if it's possible for certain people and they are ok with that, awesome! =P

So generally it is regarded a Sin. People will have conflicting opinions about the situation forever, and thats just the way life is.

Peace.

[Sage]

There have been cases where homosexuals have been said to have "Converted" to Heterosexuality through Christ. Again, not much background information on my part. But if it's possible for certain people and they are ok with that, awesome! =P


Those programs have largely failed as a whole and do little more than teach people to hate themselves for who they are.

[ebony15]

Those programs have largely failed as a whole and do little more than teach people to hate themselves for who they are.

Hate themselves? in what aspect?

People like homosexuals have a choice actually... I don't even believe that they are or were even born that way..

sometimes I think their minds are messed up...lol.. but hey I'm just kidding. :D

In the Bible.. it does say that it is a sin... if you are actually engaged in doing sexual stuff.. between the same sex..

yet if you aren't doing the "sins" even if you are gay...then you're not sinning.

there are gay christians ..and being Christians help their minds to focus on Jesus and not of the sin of the World.

[Shalom]

Of course it's not a sin.
Sins are something that are done voluntairly, and I don't think anyone purposely tries to be gay.

Very well said. Who would choose to be gay and be hated by many? You must be crazy.

[Ripplemagne]

That's like asking who would choose to be gothic and be hated by everybody. Obviously, people do it.

[Perseus]

Hate themselves? in what aspect?
When you go to a church and say, "Hey, I'm gay!" Everyone will probaly be chanting you're going to hell and you're evil, and then someone will try and covert you and that might make start thinking it's wrong and that you're "evil" and such.

People like homosexuals have a choice actually... I don't even believe that they are or were even born that way..
Oh, can you prove to me that homosexuals have a choice? No, because some people choose to be gay and others, I believe, were born that way. Sure, somethings may drive someone to hate the opposite sex and be compelled to like the same. Then there are some who are just gay, like I'm jsut heterosexual. I didn't choose to be heterosexual, I was born a heterosexual.

Since I haven't said a word in this thread, I would like to say that being gay is not a sin, and I'm Christian, by the way, but most of y'all know that.

[Tiberius]

What confuses me the most is the bible says that you need to love one another if I'm correct? So why does it matter what degree of love it is and what gender the person is if we are all doing gods word? Its quite mind boggling.

Ahem, Greg...

Leviticus 18:22 "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

In modern English: "Homosexuality is absolutely forbidden, for it is an enormous sin"

[JacobHerrington]

[QUOTE=Ripplemagne;628789]Is Homosexuality A Sin? (http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=408674623&blogId=508011736) What do you think?[/QUOTE
no .. cuz there is no god.

[Ripplemagne]

By the way, Sebbie. I did read your post. Read the debate I had with Njord below the article. :P It's pretty much the same things.

Oh, can you prove to me that homosexuals have a choice? No, because some people choose to be gay and others, I believe, were born that way.

The same logic can be reversed on you.

Ahem, Greg...

Leviticus 18:22 "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

In modern English: "Homosexuality is absolutely forbidden, for it is an enormous sin"

Please read. (http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=408674623&blogId=508011736)

no .. cuz there is no god.

You're not very bright, are you?

[boy.on.laptop]

[QUOTE=DaTrooper00;647690]
Oh, can you prove to me that homosexuals have a choice? No, because some people choose to be gay and others, I believe, were born that way. QUOTE]

and can you prove to me that homosexuals don't have a choice? No.
From a christian perspective I do not know if homosexuality is a sin for sure, even if the bible condenmens it as it is possible some people are born that way. I personally have not have a stuggle with homosexuality thankfully and have had not to worry about it.

However, I believe that almost everyone on this page is wrong at the end of the day it is God that judges our sins not fellow humans. That is my main problem with the Catholic church is their insistents that some sins are worse than others and other things not clearly defined by the bible such as masturbation are a sin.(I am a penticostal baptist)

[ebony15]

However, I believe that almost everyone on this page is wrong at the end of the day it is God that judges our sins not fellow humans.
Amen.. it is so true..
people dont have the right to judge cuz only God can judge us for our actions.
I guess people they have their doctrines and they just base on that...that's why some people are so judgemental when they find out your gay..

[Severus Snape]

It would be a bit unfair of god to equip his creations with the ability to love, an overpowered sex drive, and homosexual tendencies, and then make it a hellbound sin to be just that. Claiming that homosexuality is a damnable offense is fine, but at the same time many people that claim such things would have to abandon their concepts of god as all loving and all powerful (or accept predetermination as a viable theological truth). god is either setting you up for failure or letting you live freely free of eternal ramafications for the activity.

Doesn't affect me either way, because there is even less evidence god even exists in the first place. and if god does indeed hate fags then I'm not gonna waste my time worshipping it. As a matter of fact, I'm going to give it the middle finger salute :)

[MykeSoBe]

What confuses me the most is the bible says that you need to love one another if I'm correct? So why does it matter what degree of love it is and what gender the person is if we are all doing gods word? Its quite mind boggling.

The act is sinful but we still need to love one another. If God created women to be the only male companion then why would we go against that?

[karl]

If it is a sin then there are a lot of sinners in this world.

[Sage]

If it is a sin then there are a lot of sinners in this world.

Anyone who knows anything about the bible knows that everyone's a sinner.

[Death]

Since a sin is something that goes against the Christians' God, then yes, it is (unfortunately) a sin. Of course, it's 100% obvious that it is perfectly acceptable (morally) despite this and to not think so is bigotry, or to be more specific, homophobia. And the excuse of it being unnatural is BS too becuase researchers have found homosexual behaviour in certain animals and besides, who's getting hurt?

[Sage]

And the excuse of it being unnatural is BS too

When you think about it, technically, nothing is unnatural. "Unnatural" is a pretty fucking abstract concept.

[Death]

^^ I'd agree with that. I think 'unnatural' is simply a petty and pointless excuse people use to prove their arrogance.

[Ghoti]

Yes, homosexuality is a big sin, and is not taken lightly to God, if you believe him.

[Rutherford The Brave]

The act is sinful but we still need to love one another. If God created women to be the only male companion then why would we go against that?

Because it's not how we think that makes up gay. People are born gay, and I think its odd that god would punish people created in the image and likeness of himself? Thats hypocritical. Not only that but it does say in the bible that God loves everyone (Both Romantically and Unconditionally.) Wouldn't that make him gay himself?

[boy.on.laptop]

Because it's not how we think that makes up gay. People are born gay

Not only that but it does say in the bible that God loves everyone (Both Romantically and Unconditionally.) Wouldn't that make him gay himself?

That is if you assume god is a man and for the record it would be bi not gay. God is neither male or female but a greater being.
Do you know that we are born gay? No, you don't. I do not claim to know that people are not born gay either ad that is a choice but the truth is noone knows.

[Death]

Because it's not how we think that makes up gay. People are born gay, and I think its odd that god would punish people created in the image and likeness of himself? Thats hypocritical. Not only that but it does say in the bible that God loves everyone (Both Romantically and Unconditionally.) Wouldn't that make him gay himself?

Now that is quite insightful. I'm not sure about gay since I'm not sure if God is portrayed as a male or female in the bible but we always refer to him as male and so I see where you're coming from and I don't disagree.

That is if you assume god is a man and for the record it would be bi not gay. God is neither male or female but a greater being.
Do you know that we are born gay? No, you don't. I do not claim to know that people are not born gay either ad that is a choice but the truth is noone knows.

Of course we're born gay - we just don't know until we becmome sexually active. Homosexuality is duue to the wiring of the brain being slightly different (sex-wise) than heterosexuals which will be present from birth (and this has been proven I might add) and to discriminate against that is wrong. It's like discriminating agasint someone for being autistic, deformed, etc. AKA, wrong.

[sebbie]

That is if you assume god is a man and for the record it would be bi not gay. God is neither male or female but a greater being.
Do you know that we are born gay? No, you don't. I do not claim to know that people are not born gay either ad that is a choice but the truth is noone knows.

If you look at the Bible (Christians religious text) God is referred to as "Father" , "Lord". This would imply that God is perceived to be male. However if you consider how God is meant to "love" humans it is not in a sexual nature, more in a family nature, the way a parent would love its child.

Of course we're born gay - we just don't know until we becmome sexually active. Homosexuality is duue to the wiring of the brain being slightly different (sex-wise) than heterosexuals which will be present from birth (and this has been proven I might add) and to discriminate against that is wrong. It's like discriminating agasint someone for being autistic, deformed, etc. AKA, wrong.

Could you please provide a link to the proof that people are born homosexual, as there are convincing arguments that it is to do with how people are raised, the whole Nature vs Nurture debate.

[The Joker]

Homosexuality is called an abomination.

May I mention, that eating shrimp is also an abomination.

Also, an abomination, back then, simply meant that it was culturally different.

May I add that back in those times, there was a lack of population and they wanted all to procreate. Obviously, you can only procreate if you're having heterosexual sex. Onan was struck down for spilling his seed on his ground. Many think that has to do with masturbating; it doesn't. They wanted all to procreate.

[Death]

Also, an abomination, back then, simply meant that it was culturally different.

If this is true (which it probably is), then this means that God (as portrayed in the old testament) approves of killing anyone with anything to do with other cultures. 'If a man lies with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, they have commited an abomination; they shall suerly be put to death: their blood shall be upon them.' Levitus

Could you please provide a link to the proof that people are born homosexual, as there are convincing arguments that it is to do with how people are raised, the whole Nature vs Nurture debate.

Okay, you probably have a point here. How you're brought up can make a big impact (I think it depends on the parent of the opposite sex) on your sexuality but even then, a child can't control that. But it would seem unlikely that that's the only contributing factor though.

[laurita_21]

i dont think it is, but if maybe the bible says something about it.
buut i wouldnt relly care if it was a sin or not :D

[alex95]

:O anyway it is a sin and im a homophobic lol

[Sage]

im a homophobic lol

Why?

[Eagle1]

no i don't think it is

[Rutherford The Brave]

Why?

Because hes afraid of the truth.

[Death]

That would probably explain everything.

[Sage]

Because hes afraid of the truth.

That question wasn't posed at you, Greg.

[Rutherford The Brave]

That question wasn't posed at you, Greg.

I don't think it really matters, if he wont answer then he must be afraid to admit something.

[The Joker]

If this is true (which it probably is), then this means that God (as portrayed in the old testament) approves of killing anyone with anything to do with other cultures. 'If a man lies with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, they have commited an abomination; they shall suerly be put to death: their blood shall be upon them.' Levitus

Let me point to my other point. They wanted all to procreate. Onan was struck down because he spilled his seed on the ground, and not inside the vagina, and he was struck down because he wasn't helping procreate when he did that.

May I add that back in those times, there was a lack of population and they wanted all to procreate. Obviously, you can only procreate if you're having heterosexual sex. Onan was struck down for spilling his seed on his ground. Many think that has to do with masturbating; it doesn't. They wanted all to procreate.

[sebbie]

If this is true (which it probably is), then this means that God (as portrayed in the old testament) approves of killing anyone with anything to do with other cultures. 'If a man lies with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, they have commited an abomination; they shall suerly be put to death: their blood shall be upon them.' Levitus



If you are referring to the rules laid out in the Book of Leviticus, in the original article (Link in the first post), this was debunked as evidence that homosexuality is a sin.

In a short basic explanation many Christians do not feel bound by Levitical law due to contrasting statements in the New Testament books and antinomianism in general

[Death]

Let me point to my other point. They wanted all to procreate. Onan was struck down because he spilled his seed on the ground, and not inside the vagina, and he was struck down because he wasn't helping procreate when he did that.

Now that's interesting because of the hipocrisy (two bolded parts). If they wanted a high population (from procreation), why did they kill everyone who didn't reflect God's perfect image? Surely that would then severly decrease the population because all those that died from the murders? Besides, how impatient were they? They only needed to wait about an hour or so (if I'm not mistaken but feel free to correct me here) before he would have been able to have reproductive sex again, right? That's one thing that really gets me about the bible and its scriptures.

[Ripplemagne]

I deleted the article on my MySpace. However, you can still find it here. (http://ripplemagne.weebly.com/1/post/2009/08/is-homosexuality-a-sin.html)

Not only that but it does say in the bible that God loves everyone (Both Romantically and Unconditionally.) Wouldn't that make him gay himself?

Could you point where it says that?

God is neither male or female but a greater being.

Wrong.

If that were the case, he wouldn't be called the Father and referred to as "He" by Yeshua. Unless, of course, you believe something outside of the Abrahamic Religions, but we're not discussing those, now, are we?

(and this has been proven I might add)

Actually, numerous tests have affirmed the antithesis. There's no "gay gene".

Homosexuality is called an abomination.

May I mention, that eating shrimp is also an abomination.

Also, an abomination, back then, simply meant that it was culturally different.

May I add that back in those times, there was a lack of population and they wanted all to procreate. Obviously, you can only procreate if you're having heterosexual sex. Onan was struck down for spilling his seed on his ground. Many think that has to do with masturbating; it doesn't. They wanted all to procreate.

Onanism. (http://ripplemagne.weebly.com/1/post/2009/09/is-onanism-a-sin.html)

And, actually, an abomination doesn't mean it's culturally different.

"Old Testament experts view the regulations of Leviticus as standards of holiness, directives for the formation of community life, aimed at establishing and maintaining a people's identity in relation to God." This is because God was so determined that His people who were being formed into a new nation would not adopt the practices of the Baal worshipers in Canaan, and same-gender sex was part of Baal worship...

Even if we consider that morality was a factor in this rule, it is part of the Code, and when the Code became obsolete, as it is under Christ, that rule, as part of the Code, became obsolete. These verses in Leviticus have nothing to say to us today beyond the eternal principle of the need for purity in the worship of God. If the immorality expressed in them happens to be a principle for all time, then it will be found elsewhere in the Bible." -- Professor Soards of Gay Church.Org.

[clone]

it is a sin but shouldnt be if it is and 'god' is real then im going to hell im an athiest though because religion is a waste of time 1 hour every sunday? no thank you...

[drewlink99]

I do not think so,but if so, I'm going to hell! I will NOT be sorry for who I am.

[alex95]

Why?

it makes me sick makes my skin crawl where i come from they kill gay people and even if they try to make a case it doesn't go anywhere

[alex95]

Because hes afraid of the truth.

if im afraid of the truth tell me?

[Sage]

it makes me sick makes my skin crawl where i come from they kill gay people and even if they try to make a case it doesn't go anywhere

Where do you come from? And why hold such a pointless hatred for a group that doesn't affect your life in any way?

[2D]

it makes me sick makes my skin crawl where i come from they kill gay people and even if they try to make a case it doesn't go anywhere

I didn't know that in Florida it was a crime punishable by death to be gay. Huh. You learn something new everyday.

[Death]

And to think, I actually went there for my holiday! Had I have known...

[alex95]

Where do you come from? And why hold such a pointless hatred for a group that doesn't affect your life in any way?

i come from Jamaica

[alex95]

I didn't know that in Florida it was a crime punishable by death to be gay. Huh. You learn something new everyday.

no i come from Jamaica and they kill gay people there i have never seen one single gay guy

[Sage]

no i come from Jamaica and they kill gay people there i have never seen one single gay guy

Do you think it's right that they kill gay people? If so, why?

[Perseus]

no i come from Jamaica and they kill gay people there i have never seen one single gay guy

Just because you don't see any gay people doesn't mean that they are killed... Have you heard the term "in the closet"?

[The Madness.]

I do not believ homosexuality is a sin, my brother is gay, and i have heard crap from girls because they try to make me feel bad and say that it is a sin. But how the bible says it is a sin, doesn't the bible also say that God loves everyone no matter how they are?

[Sage]

I do not believ homosexuality is a sin, my brother is gay, and i have heard crap from girls because they try to make me feel bad and say that it is a sin. But how the bible says it is a sin, doesn't the bible also say that God loves everyone no matter how they are?

Love the sinner, hate the sin, study the bible before debating it.

[Tiberius]

Since the question invovles the word "sin" then yes, I'd have to say that according to the Bible, homosexuality is a sin. There's really no arguing the point with that one. However, if the question was worded as "Is homosexuality wrong?" then that can leave things to an open debate and not just a simple sentace response saying "yes" or "no."

[Sage]

Since the question invovles the word "sin" then yes, I'd have to say that according to the Bible, homosexuality is a sin. There's really no arguing the point with that one. However, if the question was worded as "Is homosexuality wrong?" then that can leave things to an open debate and not just a simple sentace response saying "yes" or "no."

Hence I say,

Sin, yes, wrong, no.

[Tiberius]

Originally Posted by Deschain
Sin, yes, wrong, no.

If you are looking at it from most religious moral standpoints, homosexuality is wrong.

I think that this whole debate is pretty stupid since IT IS A MATTER OF OPINION.

Enough said.

[Ripplemagne]

I'm glad no one actually read the article.

[2D]

I just tried to. I shall make a better attempt tomorrow when I'm not drop dead tired. But it seemed like you made some damn good points there.

[enzenzz]

If you believe in sin, then yes, if not, then no.

Whether it should be considered a sin, that is something you have to discuss with your religious leaders.

[Death]

Homosexuality is a sin though, because a sin is something that the Christian God frowns upon (and so many things are going to be sinful) and homosexuality is one of them. The fact that homosexuality isn't immoral does not mean that it isn't a sin. Besides, why should you have to discuss that one with your religious leaders? Wouldn't one prefer to make up their own minds?

[Rutherford The Brave]

I'm glad no one actually read the article.

I read it ripp, found it quite intriguing.

[CaptainObvious]

Since the question invovles the word "sin" then yes, I'd have to say that according to the Bible, homosexuality is a sin. There's really no arguing the point with that one. However, if the question was worded as "Is homosexuality wrong?" then that can leave things to an open debate and not just a simple sentace response saying "yes" or "no."

How is there no arguing that point? The scriptural evidence for homosexuality being sinful is extremely scant, with the exception of a couple of passages that generally, when considered in context, are of little importance.

[Ripplemagne]

I know you did, Greg. But seeing comments like "yes, it is" or "no, it's not" with no acknowledging of the points brought up is like "Wow, get an attention span." XD

[Death]

I know you did, Greg. But seeing comments like "yes, it is" or "no, it's not" with no acknowledging of the points brought up is like "Wow, get an attention span." XD

Can you ever argue without insulting those who disagree with you?

Since the question invovles the word "sin" then yes, I'd have to say that according to the Bible, homosexuality is a sin. There's really no arguing the point with that one. However, if the question was worded as "Is homosexuality wrong?" then that can leave things to an open debate and not just a simple sentace response saying "yes" or "no."

I actually agree with this. The bible makes it clear that homosexuality is sinful. Yes, I know that it doesn't say that everywhere, but the point is, it still does. So homosexuality is sinful since it means going against God and since the Bible is the book that effectively says that God is real, it defines what a sin is, because otherwise, they would be no such thing.

Obviously, when it comes to moral issues, that is completely different and you don't need the Bible to explain or introuduce morality because it is nothing to do with God. You don't have to use the term 'God' to explain or know morailty.

[The Joker]

i come from Jamaica

Then why does your location read "Florida"?

[Black or White]

I wouldnt consider it a sin and I dont think it is wrong either, everyone to their own.

[Severus Snape]

If god allegedly made me a certain way, and then condemns me because of it, quite frankly he can go fuck himself.

[Death]

^^ That's exactly how I feel about it - assuming that God exists at all. But Christians will say that God made homosexuals, and so he must have also made them their sexuality and so I do believe that was God would be doing (if he exists) is simply wrong.

[INFERNO]

If god allegedly made me a certain way, and then condemns me because of it, quite frankly he can go fuck himself.

This is something I haven't really been able to wrap my head around. Each time I've asked this or seen it asked, the general answer is "god gave free will", however, that answer leads to the same answer as the one we have unless of course we begin removing some assumptions about god, such as being all-knowing. I've heard a few others say that whenever god "gives" someone something such as homosexuality, it's apparently some weird test of faith, which to me makes even less sense than saying it's an act of free will.

[Death]

One thing about this 'free will' argument; anybody with two brain cells to rub together will be 100% certain that homosexuality (in the brain) isn't a choice and so quite frankly, that agument is completely and uttelry, 100% pointless.

[Severus Snape]

^^ That's exactly how I feel about it - assuming that God exists at all. But Christians will say that God made homosexuals, and so he must have also made them their sexuality and so I do believe that was God would be doing (if he exists) is simply wrong.If god exists, it certainly is not the christian definition of god that is that person. The human condition itself disproves what christians present as truth in god simply by its own merit.

This is something I haven't really been able to wrap my head around. Each time I've asked this or seen it asked, the general answer is "god gave free will", however, that answer leads to the same answer as the one we have unless of course we begin removing some assumptions about god, such as being all-knowing.
Calvinists in the sixteenth century had the same problem, except they were declared heretics by the church and fought to defend their heresy in a series of religious wars that left millions of Europeans dead.

the concept of god as all loving, all knowing, and all powerful come into direct conflict with one another when we look at anomalies such as homosexuality. The bible clearly stipulates that homosexuality is an abomination, and the OT even declares that homosexuals should be put to death (progressive!). now, either the bible is not divinely inspired and simply written by Jewish homophobes, or god really is just this much of a jerk and therefoe is not worthy of any worship in my opinion (assuming he exists).

So really, the questions you pose are very significant. You are right of course.

I've heard a few others say that whenever god "gives" someone something such as homosexuality, it's apparently some weird test of faith, which to me makes even less sense than saying it's an act of free will.Sexual orientation isn't a matter of free will. When I was 13 and just realizing that I was attracted to guys, I tried very, very hard to make myself not like guys any more. I went to a Catholic middle school and you can bet that if my sexual preference was up to me, I would have chosen to be 100% straight.

[Death]

I could not agree more with this. There was once a time when I would have thought that this would be dead easy to figure out, but with experience, I know that there will be far too many people who simply can't. But yes, these are all things that really get me with religion and their fundemental view of homosexuality.

[alex95]

Do you think it's right that they kill gay people? If so, why?
i don't think its right but i cant do anything about it.
Just because you don't see any gay people doesn't mean that they are killed... Have you heard the term "in the closet"?

oo nooo lol you cant stay in the closet in Jamaica let me tell you that lol if a guy has sex with another guy the whole town knows then that guy i dead or he skips town lol and the law doesn't care (of course unless there tourist) lol

[Sage]

i don't think its right but i cant do anything about it.

You, my friend, are the epitome of all that is pitiful in our generation, and those words exemplify this. There is always something one can do.

[Perseus]

oo nooo lol you cant stay in the closet in Jamaica let me tell you that lol if a guy has sex with another guy the whole town knows then that guy i dead or he skips town lol and the law doesn't care (of course unless there tourist) lol

Yeah, you can stay in the closet. People do it all the time; just beccause your gay doesn't mean you have to have sex with guys all the time. You can be gay and live a discreit life, y'know?

[Death]

You, my friend, are the epitome of all that is pitiful in our generation, and those words exemplify this. There is always something one can do.

Like what? Come on Deschain, don't just mindlessly insult him because of him saying that there's noting he can do but not give any examples yourself. What can one do to stop this sort of homophobia?

[lengthy_brochure]

Well, I'm lutheran and gay.

So I hope not

[Ripplemagne]

Can you ever argue without insulting those who disagree with you?

Pot, meet kettle. If I recall correctly, you were suspended. Not me. <3 kthx.

If god exists, it certainly is not the christian definition of god that is that person. The human condition itself disproves what christians present as truth in god simply by its own merit.

Um... how?

[Kaleidoscope Eyes]

Ok, I normally dislike it when people quote things from a few pages back and respond to them, but whatever, I have a few things to say.

it is a sin but shouldnt be if it is and 'god' is real then im going to hell im an athiest though because religion is a waste of time 1 hour every sunday? no thank you...

Do all religions involve church on Sundays? As far as Christianity is concerned, does the Bible ever say that you must attend church in the first place? Is atheism a disbelief in organized religion? (Hint: the answer to all three is "no.")

A lot of people, Christians included, aren't fond of traditional organized religion. Many Christians choose to practice outside of church, and don't attend church at all (except maybe on holidays such as Christmas or Easter, although not all even do that). Going to church is not what makes a person Christian. If you don't want to go, you don't have to. It's that simple.

I hate it when all these teens think, "Oh, I don't agree with Christianity and I don't like the thought of going to church or temple or mosque or whatever, because I'm an individual and I won't be tied down by "the man" telling me what to do, so I'm an atheist." Atheism is the belief that there is no god, it is not the belief that organized religion sucks. I'm not trying to spark an argument over whether atheist is a "religion" or not, but I will say that atheism is nothing to do with not liking religion.

Besides, if you don't believe in God and don't subscribe to Christianity... how can you have just said, "It is a sin"? If you don't believe in God, you don't believe in an afterlife, and you don't believe that our actions today will affect us after death. Thus, the concept of sin should not exist.

Obviously, when it comes to moral issues, that is completely different and you don't need the Bible to explain or introuduce morality because it is nothing to do with God. You don't have to use the term 'God' to explain or know morailty.

Divine Command Theory (http://www.iep.utm.edu/divine-c/), anyone?
Divine Command is a moral theory according to which what makes right actions right is that God commands them, and what makes wrong actions wrong is that God forbids them. Sounds like a moral theory in which God is the ONLY thing that matters when it comes to determining morality.

Let's learn some of the basic theories of moral philosophy before we discuss moral philosophy; it might help. All moral theories which have so far been proposed have their flaws, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist and do not have their followers. You don't believe in Divine Command? Fine. For the sake of argument, though, let's not imply that it doesn't exist.

[Death]

Pot, meet kettle. If I recall correctly, you were suspended. Not me. <3 kthx.

I know that you're only insulting me because I'm atheist (like the other time you mentioned). Now, I think that we should end this 'sub discussion' because it's getting out of and, okay? Seriously.

Divine Command Theory (http://www.iep.utm.edu/divine-c/), anyone?
Divine Command is a moral theory according to which what makes right actions right is that God commands them, and what makes wrong actions wrong is that God forbids them. Sounds like a moral theory in which God is the ONLY thing that matters when it comes to determining morality.

That isn't morality, that's just religious belief. I fail to see why you need God to explain morality; I think that we are intellignt enough to know and/or decide for ourselves, are we not?

You don't believe in Divine Command?

No, because if I did, I would believe that murdering homosexuals and disobidient teenagers was morally good, which anyone with real morals, will know isn't.

[Ripplemagne]

I know that you're only insulting me because I'm atheist (like the other time you mentioned). Now, I think that we should end this 'sub discussion' because it's getting out of and, okay? Seriously.

Because that explains why I've also criticized Christians and commended other atheists in this thread, right? Your generalizations and rampant stereotyping of Christianity is laughable in the face of your own hypocrisy.

[Kaleidoscope Eyes]

That isn't morality, that's just religious belief. I fail to see why you need God to explain morality; I think that we are intellignt enough to know and/or decide for ourselves, are we not?

So you're saying religion and morality never mix? Religion doesn't teach us morals? What the hell are things like, "thou shalt not kill," or, "thou shalt not steal," then, if not basic morals about acceptable behavior? FOR SOME PEOPLE, religion plays a big part in how they conduct their lives. Can you agree with that?

You can't say that just because it has to do with religion that it has no place in ethics. In fact, religion and ethics are pretty intertwined for many people. I never said you had to agree with the theory--I certainly don't. Disagreeing, however, does not have to include putting down others who do agree by saying that they're unintelligent.
The topic at hand isn't moral philosophy on the whole, or how our morals relate to our religious beliefs; I'm not trying to derail the whole thread over this. All I asked was for you to not pooh-pooh everyone with a religious stance on the issue by saying that God doesn't matter in the discussion--for some people, He does. You can say that your beliefs don't include religion or a god of any sort, explain that to us, we'll listen. When I ask you to consider others' opinions, though, please don't come back at me with, "I'm sorry, I thought we were more intelligent than that."

And, just because you took me out of context:

You don't believe in Divine Command? Fine. For the sake of argument, though, let's not imply that it doesn't exist.

I put the "fine" bit in bold, to emphasize the fact that I'm cool with you not subscribing to the theory. I don't either. A lot of Christians don't subscribe (it's not necessary in order to be one), even. Oh, and, I'm not even Christian myself, for the record. Looks like I'm not putting you down or telling you what to believe at all, so.... Your murdering homosexuals comment really had nothing to do with the line that you quoted, because it had nothing to do with what I was saying. Thank you for telling me that I have no real morals, though, I'll think about that.

[Death]

Because that explains why I've also criticized Christians and commended other atheists in this thread, right? Your generalizations and rampant stereotyping of Christianity is laughable in the face of your own hypocrisy.

Look, I said can we drop this!? I'm pretty sick of trying to post here with tou cutting in to mindlessly insult me like this! I've said nothing more about Christianity than you have about atheism (note that I have not said how much either of this is), and so, can we drop this now?

So you're saying religion and morality never mix? Religion doesn't teach us morals? What the hell are things like, "thou shalt not kill," or, "thou shalt not steal," then, if not basic morals about acceptable behavior?

Religion does teach us morals, and some of them are very bad ones such as killing those who do not follow the same religion or sexuality. Morality is not what a God in a specific monotheistic religion makes it.

FOR SOME PEOPLE, religion plays a big part in how they conduct their lives. Can you agree with that?

Of course I can. Saying no to that would be like saying no to the fact that the sun exists.

Disagreeing, however, does not have to include putting down others who do agree by saying that they're unintelligent.

What!? Just because I said that we have the intelligence to say what morality is for ourselves, it certainly does not mean that people who don't are unintelligent. I certainly did not say (or at least mean) what you say I did.

When I ask you to consider others' opinions, though, please don't come back at me with, "I'm sorry, I thought we were more intelligent than that."

And I won't because I never have.

Your murdering homosexuals comment really had nothing to do with the line that you quoted, because it had nothing to do with what I was saying.

I was merely saying that not everything that the bible promotes is morally good.

Thank you for telling me that I have no real morals, though, I'll think about that.

If you are saying that I've said that you do not have morals, that must mean that you believe that murder of disobident teenagers and homoseuals is right because they are the only people that I've effectivelly called immoral. I know that you can't really believe that, and so you're not immoral.

[Kaleidoscope Eyes]

Of course I can. Saying no to that would be like saying no to the fact that the sun exists.

Well, you also said Divine Command isn't morality, denying it as a moral theory. If people use religion (in this case, of the Christian variety) to decide how they conduct their lives, how is using your religion as the basis for your own moral judgments "just religious belief"? That's the point I was trying to make, that a moral theory based on religion is still a moral theory.

What!? Just because I said that we have the intelligence to say what morality is for ourselves, it certainly does not mean that people who don't are unintelligent. I certainly did not say (or at least mean) what you say I did

Well, saying that people with intelligence can decide morality without religion implies that those who do follow religion as a guide for morality are unintelligent. Especially considering the context. Maybe it's not what you meant, but it seemed to be the gist of what you said.

If you are saying that I've said that you do not have morals, that must mean that you believe that murder of disobident teenagers and homoseuals is right because they are the only people that I've effectivelly called immoral. I know that you can't really believe that, and so you're not immoral.

Perhaps I misunderstood you, then. It seemed that when you were saying that followers of Divine Command do not have "real" morals, that you were trying to take a stab at me for defending it. My bad.

Although, how many modern Christians murder disobedient teenagers, anyways? Divine Command doesn't mean taking everything the Bible says literally, as some things in the Bible do not necessarily apply today in the same way that they did then, and some things are even open to interpretation a bit. The jist of the theory is that stealing (for example) is wrong because God commands "thou shalt not steal," not because there is some higher moral standard that God follows when he commands these things. The theory is not that everything in the Bible must be taken literally without any thought to our actions. Are actions wrong because God forbids them, or does God forbid them because they are wrong? For a Divine Command theorist, it is the former. That's all it is, no one is telling anyone to murder teenagers. Those who do such things because "God said so" are considered nut jobs or extremists, depending on the circumstances, and their actions are not condoned by the majority.

[Death]

Well, saying that people with intelligence can decide morality without religion implies that those who do follow religion as a guide for morality are unintelligent. Especially considering the context. Maybe it's not what you meant, but it seemed to be the gist of what you said.

I assure you it wasn't what I meant at all. I was merely saying that due to our intelligence, we could decide what morality is for ourselves if we wanted to. We could decide to not do so and follow divine command but we would still be intelligent enough to decide what morality for ourselves is, we just don't want to. The only reason why I said that I think we should decide what morality is for ourselves, is because I personally prefer the idea of independance as apposed to following a set of ancient rules, but it doesn't link to intelligence however (to me), I assure you.


Perhaps I misunderstood you, then. It seemed that when you were saying that followers of Divine Command do not have "real" morals, that you were trying to take a stab at me for defending it. My bad.

I've made similar mistakes in the past so you're not alone.

Although, how many modern Christians murder disobedient teenagers, anyways? Divine Command doesn't mean taking everything the Bible says literally, as some things in the Bible do not necessarily apply today in the same way that they did then, and some things are even open to interpretation a bit.

Since it was written 2000 years ago and things were very different then, I would more or less agree with that.

The jist of the theory is that stealing (for example) is wrong because God commands "thou shalt not steal," not because there is some higher moral standard that God follows when he commands these things. The theory is not that everything in the Bible must be taken literally without any thought to our actions. Are actions wrong because God forbids them, or does God forbid them because they are wrong? For a Divine Command theorist, it is the former. That's all it is, no one is telling anyone to murder teenagers. Those who do such things because "God said so" are considered nut jobs or extremists, depending on the circumstances, and their actions are not condoned by the majority.

I see, I wouldn't personally agree with the theory, but I appreciate the explaination anyway.

[Ripplemagne]

I'm pretty sick of trying to post here with tou cutting in to mindlessly insult me like this!

Mindlessly insulting? I guess pointing out your hypocrisy and making it clear as day why I'm saying such is mindless now? Other than that, all I said was that you were being extremely stereotypical.

I've said nothing more about Christianity than you have about atheism

Wrong.

[Death]

Ripplemagne, quit trolling. I've already said countless times that I want to drop this because this one-sided bashing is getting nowhere. You do realise that this only stated because I asked you a question. So, as I've said countless times before, lets just drop it, okay? Can you do that? Thankyou.

[kolte]

It depends on your own religious affiliation. In MY OWN OPINION to claim adherence to Christianity, a religion based off of the scriptures in the Holy Bible, is to acknowledge the bible, which is the only reference for Christianity, is the word of God. That being said, yes, Homosexuality is sinful.

I, however, do not believe in God, and subsequently, I don't believe in sin either. There are people, and there are individual perspectives.

Find yourself. It's sad to see a fake person.

[Death]

That exactly how I feel. Homosexuality may be sinful, but that's meaningless outside the bible which you can never prove is truthful.

[Ripplemagne]

Ripplemagne, quit trolling. I've already said countless times that I want to drop this because this one-sided bashing is getting nowhere. You do realise that this only stated because I asked you a question. So, as I've said countless times before, lets just drop it, okay? Can you do that? Thankyou.

Trolling? One sided bashing? I would love to know what plane of logic you're speaking on because it sure as Hell ain't a level one.

It depends on your own religious affiliation. In MY OWN OPINION to claim adherence to Christianity, a religion based off of the scriptures in the Holy Bible, is to acknowledge the bible, which is the only reference for Christianity, is the word of God. That being said, yes, Homosexuality is sinful.

I, however, do not believe in God, and subsequently, I don't believe in sin either. There are people, and there are individual perspectives.

Find yourself. It's sad to see a fake person.

+rep.

[mrmcdonaldduck]

by the laws of god set over 5000 years ago, yes.

in todays society, i say no. The church lets gay priests and brothers preach, so i dont thinks so.

Laws set down 5000 years ago have little or no influence on todays society.

[ylllek nivyer]

well, i think sin means against the bible, right? and homosexuality is wrong according to the bible. which means technically it is sinful. but, no one is perfect. all christians sin. so it's not like if you are gay that you can't be a christian or anything. i am a christian btw :) i'm a sinner everday of my life. only Jesus is perfect. God just asks us to try our best.

[Death]

Trolling? One sided bashing? I would love to know what plane of logic you're speaking on because it sure as Hell ain't a level one.

Ripplemagne, the very fact that you keep pestering me like this even after I say 'drop it' countless times and keep trying to go back on topic is trolling in itself. If you can't ever post without going off topic and insulting people (especially for that purpose only), kindly don't. And so for the last fucking time, drop it! Geez...

by the laws of god set over 5000 years ago, yes.

I thought it was over 2000 years ago, or am I going mad? :what:

well, i think sin means against the bible, right? and homosexuality is wrong according to the bible. which means technically it is sinful.

Yes, I'd agree with that.

but, no one is perfect. all christians sin. so it's not like if you are gay that you can't be a christian or anything. i am a christian btw :) i'm a sinner everday of my life. only Jesus is perfect. God just asks us to try our best.

I guess that's why he murdered everyone who was imperfect in the old testament (I know that you referred to Jesus, but God is supposed to be the same thing (along with the holy spirit) which is called the trinity). Besides, there's no proving that he even exists, ever.

[The Joker]

There is no proving that he doesn't exist, either.