Gay Marriage (Merged)

[SaTaN_iz_GoD]

I personally think the government is screwing Americans over. They dont have any respect for homosexuals. They tell us not to discrimanate ppl and they get mad at us for saying stuff about homosexuals yet they can tell them how to live?

[dying lullaby]

i totally agree. its not right, ppl should have the right to chose who it is they marry. the government is supporting prejudices by not allowing all ppl equal rights.

[roxy4sixty9]

i agree i have nothing to add

[TheWizard]

I agree too. :)

[RunAwayMolly]

wow some debate... with everyone agreeing... even me 8)

[Dfsg]

I guess I could avoid a long debate if I just agreed with ya'll... But that make me a lier :P

So I'll just remain silent :P

[dying lullaby]

ok, now you HAVE to tell us what you think ;)

[Runner]

I just don't see how government can put limitations on love. You can't help who you fall in love with...why should anyone else meddle with it?

[Dfsg]

Well, the government doesn't say a guy can't fall in love with a guy- that would be plain stupid. That would be in denial that homosexuality exists. That is why we have civil unions that cover gays in love.

My problem with a gay maraige is that maraige is something that is religious. Maraige is biblically and historically something to join a man and a woman to create a family and perpetuate humanity. A man to man, or a woman to woman maraige can not have children, and can not perpetuate life.

The government should not be placing restrictions or taking away restrictions on something that should be controlled by the Church. That goes against Separation of Church and State.

Yes- separation of Church and State should work in favor of the church sometimes. It seems that that law only hinders churches, but in this case, the government is trying to meddle in church affairs.

So I say go ahead- love those of your same gender. Move in together, be proud of it. Just don't expect to be recognized as maried.

[Runner]

But what about all of the children who are not wanted? Why can't gays be parents to those children...and therefore considered to be a family??

[Dfsg]

I never said I had a problem with a gay couple adopting :P

[Anonymous]

Black or white,
Gay or straight,
Marriage is a human right.

'Nuff said.

[Dfsg]

Is that enough to say? It has been said numerous times, and still it is illegal to honor a gay maraige in 49 states.

Why doesn't anyone here go for civil unions, instead of maraige?

[RunAwayMolly]

marraige isnt religious anymore... its a peice of paper.

[Dfsg]

Well, that is what maraige will become if homosexual maraiges are handed out like lolly pops in a pediatrician's office.

How could you think of maraige as just a piece of paper? That makes it much less important, and not worthy of such a critical argument.

For once, I do think John Kerry is right. He wants more rights for gays in a civil union, but is still against gay maraige. This provides protections for the both religious world, and the homosexual world.

[RunAwayMolly]

Well, that is what maraige will become if homosexual maraiges are handed out like lolly pops in a pediatrician's office.

How could you think of maraige as just a piece of paper? That makes it much less important, and not worthy of such a critical argument.

For once, I do think John Kerry is right. He wants more rights for gays in a civil union, but is still against gay maraige. This provides protections for the both religious world, and the homosexual world.

thats how it already is... you sign a peace of paper and your married legally? marraige shouldnt be a legal matter in the frist place! its for you, your partner, your family and god. and the thing about that is that its completely up to the homosexual...


i also hate when people call it an abomination... we have done plenty of things considered an abomination under god! therefor we have no right to jugde

[RunAwayMolly]

yes i think it is a good plan because then everyones happy... will you be old enough to vote by the election?

[Dfsg]

I miss the age requirements for the election by 5 months (poo!) I'd still vote Bush, however.

I just think that gays should have the same rights as homosexuals, but just in a civil union. Yes, we have no right to judge, but churches have an obligation to combat sin. You can't deny that maraige was started to recognise people as being promised to each other, and ready to start a family.

[RunAwayMolly]

I miss the age requirements for the election by 5 months (poo!) I'd still vote Bush, however.

I just think that gays should have the same rights as homosexuals, but just in a civil union. Yes, we have no right to judge, but churches have an obligation to combat sin. You can't deny that maraige was started to recognise people as being promised to each other, and ready to start a family.

could you fix homo to hetero? I think some people might get confused and not realise its a typo :P

[RunAwayMolly]

Ill be 18 by then im pumped... altho im not voting bush... bush hates my type liberaller then greenpeace and peta combined... well not quite... but yeah the same... mmm i dont nkow what im talking about so ill stop

[Waiting]

ok so what have i missed out on? ok let me reming you that even though the curch considers it "wrong" for gays to get married they also consider it "wrong" for people to get devorced yet i think its 2 out of 3 couples get a devorce.

hmm

[Dfsg]

Oops- sorry about my typo a few posts back!

And yes, the catholic church especially turns down divorces (hehe, good old Henry the VIII). The number is more like 1 in 2 that end in divorce, but that's terrible. I think the church is right, though. Many couples (especially parents) who get into arguments try to be rash. Why can't they work things out?

Back at the turn of the century, 1 in 32 maraiges (give or take) ended in divorce. People talked things out. They made their peace, and kept together. Divorce didn't become really popular until the 80s. It is terrible now to see people with a million ex-husbands or ex-wives who aren't dead.

This just shows how little people really care. You'll fight to save the rainforest or take down nuclear power plants, but you wont take care of your own relationships? Pitiful.

The church knows that these things happen, and people are overreacting often when seeking divorce. Most churches don't even blink when there's abuse involve- they'll divorce ya, but the other squabbling can be fixed.

The church is only looking out for people. They want to keep the laws and traditions of the church alive, as they are the moral things to do. Morality seems almost dead in this country. No one can trust anyone, theives and rapists are everywhere, American community itself has collapsed! All the negative things like this that happen, bring a downward slope in community. They are going up JUST AS FAST as the downward trend in church attendance. Take a look at the charts. You'll find a nice discussion of this is Putnam's "Bowling Alone".

Try to say all these immoral changes are helping the world out. Find me concrete proof.

[JunkBondTrader]

I think gay marage is fine. I don't see a problem.

[TheWizard]

Its fine with me. I think it should be legal.

[UnreflectedMirror]

This is a new day and age. Homosexuals deserve MARRIAGE...not civil unions...MARRIAGE.

It should be the right of the church to not let gays marry in their church. Marriage DOES, however, have some benefits that civil unions do not.

Some religious leaders, like the High Priestesses of Wicca, for example, would marry gays if it were legal. Some priests would as well.

According to the Bible, lending money is a sin. Should banks be shut down? Premarital sex is also a sin. Should it be illegal?

The United States was not founded on the church. The church should have no say in what goes on in our government.

Besides...they're are many debates about the words used in the Bible. When translated, "gay" may have meant another word (I forget which). Same with the word that translated as "virgin." In Greek (or Hebrew...one of the two), the word for "virgin" is the same as the word for "young girl." The Immaculate Conception could be a scam. We really need a liberal Greek and a liberal Hebrew expert...as well as conservative ones to debate. Then, there would be less questions.

[Runner]

Actually, if you look back at how the United States became to be....it was founded on Christian principles. But of course, that was hundreds of years ago.

I think marriage is a union of love and committment. As long as you are not trying to marry something other than another human being, for instance your dog, than I am all for it.

[Anonymous]

My one question for all the religious people who are against it for religious reasons, isn't everyone created equal? Doesn't God love everyone the same? Doesn't he want happiness for everyone?

[Dfsg]

Sure, God still loves a homosexual. He loves him or her more than a heterosexual. His love goes out to the more dissipated the most.

But, here is my question: Why not redefine a Civil Union, so it has the same benefits of Maraige? Neither Bush or Kerry want to legalize maraige. John Kerry looks to give more rights to people in Civil Unions, but even he oposes Gay Maraige.

That leaves the government out of arguments with the Church, and preserves separation between church and state.

[Jono]

I think that marriage is a Christian thing, although I am most certainly not against gays getting married, if the Church doesn't want to marry gays then fine, it is their religion.

BUT, I think there should be a bond between gays that in the eyes of the Government, is the same as marriage. They have the same rights as a married couple, they change names even, I don't know. But at least then everyone has the same rights.

[kingofpythias]

what people forget, especially the government, is that being gay can constitutionally be defined as a religion or train of thought. the Protection of Marriage act violates the right to religion. my aunt is a judge and has told me that this is true. We just need to get the government to understand that they are violating my rights as a gay person.

[Dfsg]

That all depends on your interpretation of the Constitution. A religion is someing for the worship of a particular Diety. No matter what, there must be worship. Do Gays worship the Gay God?

Also, this whole train of thought thing isn't in the Constitution.

Since even you say that Marraige is a religious institution, Then the Constituion SHOULD protect churches. The government should have no power in granting marraige licenses. No Judges, or Sea Captains, or county clerks with a pen. This should leave it in the hands of churches- as it used to be.

You all wave separation of church and state around, yet you forget this also means that the state does not and can not control the church.

That is why our government should only have the power of civil unions.

[kingofpythias]

I have read the constitution. Legally, Budahism is a religion. There are Gay Budahists. But to Budahists, Budahism is a "Train of Thought" or "Beleif", not a religion. So what I meant was, legally, gay Budahists should be allowed to get married. I'm sorry I didn't get into the specifics on as to what I was talking about. :wink: . My appoligies. But it isn't just Buddahists. There are many "Beleifs" out there that include gays in their practices. (Catholics for instance.....JUST KIDDING)

I do however support the republican party. (I think Bush should be shot to death but besides him.....) I beleive in their economic policy (with the exception of Bush). Their foreign policy (again without Bush).

I do support that people should all be treated as equals and if straghts can do it then Why Cant I? I am 14 years old and I have a boyfriend. We havn't done anything God wouldn't want us to do. (Seriously, read the Holy Bible, nothing about gays in there.)

According to every reason we fought the Civil War, All people should be treated equally. I just want to know why people can't understand who I am. Why doesn't the United States Government, to which in 4 years I will have to sign a draft card to, love me? Why am I different? My friends dont mind thte fact that I'm gay, but the government does! (please note all my friends are straight.) My parents love me and understand me. But the government doesnt. I just want understood.

[kingofpythias]

Girls are EVIL
Girls Require Time and Money
Time is Money as the saying goes.
Money is the root of all evil, thus,
Girls are Evil.
Makes me wonder about who all the girls are.

[Waiting]

Money is the root of all evil.

thats wrong - the love of money is the root of all evil as money cannot be evil by itself

[kingofpythias]

ooops
I should have mentioned that it was a joke i read. I figured it was something funny the must be shared with the world......
But back to the topic.

I should be allowed to get married regardless of who I am.

[Waiting]

teehee, yeah ive seen that before, but still thw love of money is evil, not money, i needed to make that point

[kingofpythias]

hmmm, funny
I like you. That is a very interesting thing to point out. You see, my family, (unknowing of my sexuality) owns a construction company that builds cement structures like highways and large foundations.
So they have been brought up pretty well. I will make sure never to Love money. I will only love what money can do for the common good or the good of the person using it, (assuming it is for a good purpose).
Is your name really patch?

[Waiting]

yeah it is as far as im concerned. well my real names patrick, but my nickname is patch, i prefer it. many people have tried to do good with money but it turns them bad. people with power often go bad. i am weary of that. thanks, whats your real name? im straight, but most of my year thinks im gay, it doesnt bother me, they are all homophobes, i like gays, they have a good sense of humor :D .

[kingofpythias]

awwwww how sweet, ill let my Gay Circle know.

My name is Jake but because of my upbringing people call me King.

[Waiting]

nice to meet you Jake or king, would your highness like to my diary paint a fridge yellow, and come be kingly there?

[kingofpythias]

well, i have been known to remove heads due to diary usage but i suppose........

[Track 14]

in england i seen gay priests, lesbian vicors and recently i do believe homosexual marriage has been given permission by an archbishop i think :s but it has certain conditions but still in no time anyone will get married of a legal age. im totally with gay marriage i see nothing worng isnt it about the love anyways and not the churches moral well being, surely love is what its all about anyway.

[kingofpythias]

I wish all people thought positivley like you do. That is good. I wish we were all like that.

[TheWizard]

I like the differences. It makes people interesting.

Anyway, I'm for gay marriages.

[Dfsg]

in england i seen gay priests, lesbian vicors and recently i do believe homosexual marriage has been given permission by an archbishop i think :s but it has certain conditions but still in no time anyone will get married of a legal age. im totally with gay marriage i see nothing worng isnt it about the love anyways and not the churches moral well being, surely love is what its all about anyway.

Darned Anglican Church... They're up for anything. What's worse than a church made by a king just so he could divorce??

[teenboy9]

"Well, that is what maraige will become if homosexual maraiges are handed out like lolly pops in a pediatrician's office.

How could you think of maraige as just a piece of paper? That makes it much less important, and not worthy of such a critical argument.

For once, I do think John Kerry is right. He wants more rights for gays in a civil union, but is still against gay maraige. This provides protections for the both religious world, and the homosexual world." -Dfsg


I respect your view, and am not trying to attack you, just using your quote to make a point. In a country where in 1998 2.2 million couples married and 1.1 couples divorced, where in 2000 58 million couples stayed married but were seperated, where 1/3 of divorce cases continue on in bitter fights years after and where each year over 1 million children are effected by divorce I do not know why you think allowing gays to marry will make the picture any worse then it is. I can maybe count two or three of my friends parents that are still together. On TV we have shows where people are cast and then americans choose who they marry right on prime time tv. I would think in a time where the sanctity of marriage is being tested, its advocates would support a new pool of people wanting to come together out of simple love, and in many cases to adopt a child so he/she can grow up in a loving family instead of foster care facility. But because they do not support the people holding up the very ideals these marriage defenders are desperately looking for it seems that there must be another reason for wanting to hold back gay marriage. To many, understanding that a homosexual has the same level of feelings when it comes to a relationship as a heterosexual is hard. Accepting that homosexuality is as natural as heterosexuality may also be hard. (Even through homosexuality has been proven to exist in at least 63 different types of animals, including the cat, the dog, the gorilla, the housefly, and the dolphin) The only problem these "marriage defenders" are fighting is gay marriage, making it seem that, thats not what they are really fighting at all.

[dying lullaby]

awesome rebuttal

[Anonymous]

Gay marriage is wrong

[TheWizard]

Gay marrage is right. Its a matter of equal civil liberties.

[teenboy9]

sweetgurlsammi this is a debate forum, debate. If you think gay marriage is wrong, ok I can respect thats how you feel. But back up your statements with fact so we can talk about it. Everyone has beliefs that need to be tested, and thats what is cool about debate. Please, give me some facts to prove me wrong. Or at least say a little more to be able to respond to.

[SocKs]

wow ease off tiger.

Gay marrage...Im not gay so therefor I dont have to worry about it but heres my thoughts. Gay marrige should be allowed, the only thing thats keeping gay marrige back is homo-phobes. I know about 5 gay people, they are the funniest people I know. There should be no reason that 2 guys or 2 girls cant get married but a guy and a girl could.

On the other side heres my friends theory. "Homos somtimes go straight so they can get married, but if we make it so that homos can marry other homos, it will just create more and more homos...pretty soon the whole damn world will be homos and then everybody will die." I highly disagree with that.

Bottom line, theres nothing wrong with 2 people of the same sex getting married so let it be god damnit.

[teenboy9]

tiger, but I used words like cool, please, and respond to. lol I am just saying my "typing tone" has always been a relaxed one, and forgive me if it seemed other wise. People that are homo phobic often have this worry that if homosexuality is fully accepted into culture it will spread through the population like a virus, and no one will be safe. Yet heterosexuality is fully accepted in culture and there are gay people still. There is always going to naturally be hetero and homosexuals in society, people are what they are.

[teenboy9]

No one has given me a rebuttal to my first post. There were so many people who were against same sex marriage, but no one has responded? Debating is only fun when there is someone to debate with. So come up with a rebuttal and lets have some fun.

[teenboy9]

Churches that hide their homophobia behind shabby, out of context bible refrences.

[teenboy9]

I am sorry, but you really left yourself open for that one. It was a joke.

[Runner]

I think the issue does not lie in the fact of letting gays get married, but rather that marriage is often thought to be a religious sacrament. It is not just a piece of paper, but a blessing from God.

Don't get me wrong, I know that you can go to any courthouse in the U.S. and get married....a non-religious ceremony....but it is still a religious act.

So, to sum it up, I think the argument is that because to some God does not recognize homosexuality....and therefore gays are bad people. I am Catholic, and straight, but even I don't agree wholeheartedly with the principles of the Catholic church. I think LOVE is what really matters.

[TheWizard]

The rights of the minority (in the case) must be protected at all costs. The civil rights movement for blacks was won because it was a noble effort for the rights of a minority. Its the samething with gays having a right to marry. Religious biggotry is the only thing preventing gays from marrying.

It would be worth have a civil war to give gays the same rights others enjoy.

[Anonymous]

Wanna Veiw my thought of Gay Marriage Just go to Govteen b/c i blew up there.
Im not sure if any one in here saw that thread.

I am a big supporter of the Fedral Marriage Protection Admendment.

[Dfsg]

Wow- I was quoted :)

Anyhoo, There's not much more I can argue on this topic. I've put a lot into the last one. I do think that many of the heterosexual gay rights activists will change their mind as time goes on, and they get married.

There's even gays who don't want the right to marry. Those are mainly Christian gays. We do accept em all, just as any sinner, but we won't accept a sin as good. Some may lie, cheat, and steal, but it's still not good, even if many people in society think otherwise.

Some of us have the genetic tendancies and brain qwerks to end up gay, or to end up doing other things. There is a genetic disorder called "super-male" (where a man gets two Y's and an X- I don't know how it happens, but it happens). They are more likely to have high testosterone, and to steal, rape, and murder. A shockingly high percentage of them are in jail. This is their nature, this is how it is for them, but does it make it right to just go ahead and do it? There are rules.

In the same way, the Church has rules. The government controls civil unions, and the Church controls maraige. You can't just break with it. The church has, for thousands of years, not recognized gay maraige (even in a time when many roman's were gay). The bible has told us this, and God must have some reason for it. So, if you don't want to confess a sin of homosexuality and try to improve it, you are just telling God you don't want Him. If you don't want God, then you must not want maraige in His name.

[teenboy9]

Some view that being gay is wrong, and I can only respect that view, although I dont think I will ever understand why some could view it to be wrong to love a person. But these are our views, and not the point. Originally marriage was used to transfer responsibility of the daughter, to create connections between families, and financial gains. In many cultures when the daughter was "given" to the other family, they had to some how pay them back for the loss of their child. When looked in prospective, marrying purly for love is a new thing. Gay marriage has little advantage and use in the old world values. But now as time change, and marriage has become a symbol of love, homosexuals wish to express this as well. When people talk about gay marriage, all they want is to be able to marry. Getting married in front of a judge or a preist, in both you get the same legal benifits, and in both the goverment acknowledges the union between the two people. For most gay rights activists, this is all they are asking for, not to change a religion, but just to get equal rights. But being gay may not be a sin at all, Leviticus 18:22 Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
Leviticus 20:13 If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
These passages are found in what is commonly called the Holiness Code (Leviticus 17-26) and may refer to ritual impurity (uncleanness) rather than immorality. In other words, same-sex relations might not be "sin" but "impurity"--like eating bacon. If so, they are irrelevant to us, for the Gospel releases Christians from this part of the Jewish law.

[TheWizard]

Wow- I was quoted :)

Anyhoo, There's not much more I can argue on this topic. I've put a lot into the last one. I do think that many of the heterosexual gay rights activists will change their mind as time goes on, and they get married.

There's even gays who don't want the right to marry. Those are mainly Christian gays. We do accept em all, just as any sinner, but we won't accept a sin as good. Some may lie, cheat, and steal, but it's still not good, even if many people in society think otherwise.

Some of us have the genetic tendancies and brain qwerks to end up gay, or to end up doing other things. There is a genetic disorder called "super-male" (where a man gets two Y's and an X- I don't know how it happens, but it happens). They are more likely to have high testosterone, and to steal, rape, and murder. A shockingly high percentage of them are in jail. This is their nature, this is how it is for them, but does it make it right to just go ahead and do it? There are rules.

In the same way, the Church has rules. The government controls civil unions, and the Church controls maraige. You can't just break with it. The church has, for thousands of years, not recognized gay maraige (even in a time when many roman's were gay). The bible has told us this, and God must have some reason for it. So, if you don't want to confess a sin of homosexuality and try to improve it, you are just telling God you don't want Him. If you don't want God, then you must not want maraige in His name.

Oh yes lets associate gays with murder, rape, stealing, etc. NOT

[Strait_outta_compton4250]

gay marriage is fine w/ me. if we say no to it the nwat will tha govt do? theyll turn totally racists towards blcks and all the other stuff thay want to be illegal an junk like that. its america......we are supposed 2 ne free and we arnt free at all if u think about it......but im going to go cuz this will get me started and that wont be good.

[Dfsg]

Oh yes lets associate gays with murder, rape, stealing, etc. NOT

I'm associating them with sinfulness.

And about the Bible passage posted before, yes, you have been successful in finding one of the 13 references to homosexuality. Too bad the Leviticus ones only have to do with Jewish law. Christian law comes much later. This passage is from Romans 1:26 + 27.

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with woman and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves due penalty for their perversion.

Now, a homosexual preforming homosexual things is bad. Just as it would be bad if I lusted over or had premarital sex your sister. There's plenty of verses on that.

Yes, all sin is bad, and we all divulge in it every day, but churches can not let more sin happen with a marital joining that is not a man-woman(except the stupid episcopal church). Maraige is not recognized in the eyes of God if it is not a man-woman maraige. It is their job to fight all sin, for sin is from the Devil.

We had a pastor at a local church involved in Adultery. We didn't say "Oh, lots of people do it, he has a Doctorate in Psycology and Divinity, and he's such a nice guy, lets just let him stay." No! This man works for the Radio Shack now. You can't just let sin slide through the rules of religious docterine because it is popular.

When the Episcopal church put in a gay bishop (which is completely against the Biblical rules for that sort of thing), The Lutheran church, which was slowly merging with them, cut them off. They would not have pastoral exchanges, they would not let them bring sin into the congregation.

Now the government is trying to usurp the power of the church to declaire maraiges against the church's will. That is direct violation of the separation of church and state. And it's all illegal.

[Anonymous]

What ever Gay Marriage is wrong. Its immoral, unjusticefied, and against the belife of the bible. If god meant for Man to date, screw, kiss, the whole nine yards another Man then it wouldn't be in the bible NOT TO.

I personaly out side of belive think it is nasty and wrong any way. Why would anybody want that?!? Its unhuman. and I dont like the thought of it.

It brings the Status of the USA down. Personaly i think it disrespects the county as a whole. I also think that if less teens and younger adults worried More about school and work and less about being "gay" ...COUGH COUGH HOMOSEXUALS...... Then there would be more chances of bringing our country out of the whole its dug its self into. G.W.Bush Jr. has tried to express this before but liberals and none Repulicans/Conservatives requote hime to make our President sound like he wants Gay Marriage.

I fully support the Fedual Marriage Protection Admindment, and ir you wish to support it to email me at [email protected]

Yes, I sin so does everyone else in this world, but Homosexuality is THE MOST SINNFUL THING I HAVE HEARD OF NEXT TO HOMOSIDE AND SUICIDE.Its wrong and evil and doings of the devil.

--Sammi

[Anonymous]

Want my opinon Veiw Gay Marriage, Response to Marriage Defenders in the debate section of virtualteen.org.

[BHSKid]

for the people who say marriage is a sacred thing, it isn't. not anymore anyway. And who cares, gays are people too. They deserve the right to get married. who are we to say that god doesn't want them to be married. It's certainly not the government's choice.

[teenboy9]

You are right, Romans 1:26 + 27 is very clear, and it does not stand alone in its clarity. It’s also very clear when the bible tells me how to sell my daughter into slavery (if I had one). The bible says, “A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this.” (Deut. 22:5) Sweetgurlsammi, I assume you have worn pants before in your life, does that mean God detests you? But before you start thinking about that we need to find out where almost all the teenagers on this site live, because as it says in Exodus 21:17 children that curse at their parents and in Exodus 21:15 children that hit their parents deserve to be put to death. This may be to personal Dfsg, but you need to find out when your mother has sex. Because if she has done this during menstruation the bible says she needs to be put to death (Exodus 19:13) If she has not then she should feel shameful for certain ways she may keep her hair or the amount of jewelry she has worn. (Tim. 2:9-10) This not to mention the continued theme through out the book of women being placed as the “lower sex.” Look, I respect your right to believe that the bible says homosexuality is wrong. But if you do, and say that the bible is first a detailed handbook on what a Christian should and should not be doing, then you have to follow all the other things the book mentions. But what is disturbing most of all is that we are having a debate on Gay Marriage, and Christianity is being considered. Civil Rights activists, and members of the gay community are working to try and receive the same rights as a heterosexual couple. Christianity does not matter here, they do not necessarily want to have a Christian marriage, they just want the right to be together with the one they love. A right that has no Constitutional reason for not being passed.

[TheWizard]

Very good :)

[Dfsg]

Ah ha- I see all you write in your rebuttal has a theme. Every single reference is from the Old Testament (save the Timothy reference).

Jesus came as a living sacrifice for us, which banished all the old Jewish laws. Yes, Jews still try to follow the rules, but Christians don't need to.

I hate it when people use Deuteronomy and such against me. Jesus suffered so I wouldn't need to worry about the sacrifices of Jewish law.

Now, I used a passage in Romans, one of the most Powerful New Testament books, to show that even after Jesus, Homosexuality was a sin. Sinning by having sex during a period, and all that gobledigook was stopped by Jesus's Death and Resurection, but sins of Homosexual acts were still sins.

Maybe you should read more into my theology before criticizing me on it.

[Dfsg]

Oh, and on the Timothy reference, Yes, that is new testament. Now, I don't wish to offend you, but which sex is generally stronger, and which sex generally is smarter? Can't argue with the facts.

[Runner]

So men are stronger? In what capacity? If you are talking about the ability to lift large amounts...big deal. Women have strength far beyond that is more meaningful than that. And as far as intelligence...you may be right to some degree, but it is only because men have been given more opportunities to be educated. Plenty of women in history are quite brilliant as well though. So I am not sure you are correct in saying that men are the stronger and smarter sex.

[Anonymous]

Yes I put a pair of pants on daily but thats what todays society does. Its also UNIFORM for my school and job to where a long gray t and a pair of denim or kaky slacks. I DONT OWN A SKIRT NOR DRESSS!

Anyways.

In Romans and Revalations and Acts <the three most stresed books of the new testiment at my church and in my city> it mentions something that Girls cant get around from doing that we cant help but do.

Men are the "higher gender" and women are the "lower gender". Its because up until WWII Women belived that they had to be house wives, then the Rosie's Girls came around.

Rosie the Rivitor and the Rosie's Girls History:

Prior to World War II, women were traditionally homemakers. But in 1942, thousands of American men were shipped to European and Pacific battlefields. A homefront crisis ensued - a severe shortage of labor to keep American businesses going, and to build the planes, ships and ammunition needed by troops.

In an effort to ease this problem, the United States War Production Coordinating Committee commissioned a poster of Rosie, the Riveter. Proclaiming, " We Can Do It ," the poster was designed to encourage women to leave their traditional roles in the home and enter the labor force. And they did - by the thousands - forever changing our views of what American women are "suppose" to do.

Rosie's Girls are the daughters and granddaughters of real-life Rosie's. Rosie wasn't their names. Rosie is what they were - women of the 1940s, young and old - all with a "Can Do" attitude, doing their part to help America in its time of need.

In todays world Men still have that small tendency to "over power" women.

BACK TO THE TOPIC:

In a marriage the Bible is read. The part of the Bible that is most likly going to be read in a normal weding is from the book of Romans!


So i dont think that Gay Marriage should be aloud to happen and i dont think that its right.

[Dfsg]

Well, while Rosie the Rivoter's were important in gaining more freedoms for women, most women did not participate in industry. Less than 10% did in fact.

In todays world, men are still physically stronger (which is important). Yes, many great woman surpass the great majority of men. I'm not saying that a woman does not have the capacity to do something better, but generally, men do go further and are stronger than women. Look at forbes's list of the richest people on earth. I believe Martha Stewart was (stress on was :P) the Richest female, maybe Oprah Winfrey, but that's a special case of a very special woman.


------------

Back to the topic.... Other than that, we see eye-to-eye on the Maraige issue.

I do hope this whole thing doesn't turn out to be a man-woman fight though :D

[d0rk_l0v3r]

i think if ur gay and wanna marry someone of the same sex then thats ur bisness. no one should be able to tell you what to do its ur choice i don't think it's wrong or right it's the persons choice who they marry so why should everyone tell them what to do. thats how i see it. :banana:

[teenboy9]

Dfsg you have brought up some really good points, good enough that you made me question myself, and further investigate this (which is the point of debate). Researching, I have found the difference between the religious conservatives and religious liberals. The more conservative view is that the bible was a direct inspiration from God (I guess that has to also include modern day publishing companies who produce copies of the book). Religious liberals see the bible as a bunch of letters and other writings written by people trying to spread the teachings of Jesus, while doing this as a human (a imperfect sinful being) and so bringing in some of their own biases from time to time. This could explain some of the minor inconsistencies that occur in the book. I am going to get into one other point that is extremely off track before I get back to the actual debate. Women physically are not built to be as strong as men, meaning a woman at their physical top is not going to be as strong as a man at his physical top. Most of us are not at our physical top, and if a woman really wanted to be their and do it, their most likely going to be stronger then the rest of the people in her life, woman or man. But in a society where our houses, cars and everything else is built for us by machine, where our food has been produced, harvest, or killed and rapped in plastic, strength really makes no difference in moving through daily life. Men also make up most of the rich elite, but you forget to consider the fact that the end to obvious sexism in society is still a recent victory, and if we look at the civil rights movement we can see change after victory is not immediate. Also that institutional sexism still exists, where it at some points is a subconscious sexism. Finally it has been medically proven that the literal make up of the brain is different between the sexes, so each side as their general strengths and weaknesses. For example studies have shown that women are better at concentrating on multiple things at the same time, while men are better at concentrating at one thing at a time.

But finally we get back to why we are hear, do homosexuals have the right to join together. People more and more see this as a religious fight, when it has nothing to do with religion. All that is being fought for is the right to join millions of other heterosexual couples in the United States coming together in civil unions. Under the guise of religious morals gays are being denied the right to the same benefits as heterosexuals. Yes, religion is a private club and can make their own rules, but when it comes to civil unions, not allowing homosexual couples the same benefits is a basic civil rights violation.

[Dfsg]

Well, I"m pegged as a conservative Christian. Most new Christians in with all the new Christian Rock music and all of that are conservative (I tend to go with both traditional and contemporary crowds very easily). I find that the people more serious about their faith, who devote themselves to God, are all the conservative Christians.

Liberal Christians, from my experience, are those who only go to church because they have to, or are't really so committed to the church. They interprit the Bible in ways to satisfy their own sins, even though confession is the only way to satisfy a sin. It is a damning sin to add or subtract from the Bible- every good Christian knows that.

But anyhow, back on topic, even if you look at this as a case of equal rights, there's something wrong. You want to supress the rights of the Church, and strengthen the rights of the Government to control the Church. That sounds like perfect equality- Government control of the church. Yeah- that's what the Communists and the Fascists like Hitler tried to do. The US now charges some Churches taxes, and they say where we can and cannot preach the word. Now they want to take away one of our most celebrated of ceremonies? They want to spit in our faces and say- "you've been doing this for thousands of years with success, and now we're gonna screw around with it!"

The politicians know this is horrible too. YOU WILL NOT FIND A MAJOR PARTY CANDIDATE IN FAVOR OF GAY MARRIAGE! Yes, both Bush and Kerry oppose it. Why would the two most important names in the United States right now, with opposing beliefs, have one mutual opinion? That is because they realize it is out-stepping the government's power to meddle with the church. They've read about Separation of Church and State, and they want to follow it.

[TheWizard]

Thats bull. What you want is the church to control government. The government hasn't said churches have to marry gays its simple not true.

All gays want is the rights other people have already.

Its about civil rights. All people should have the same civil rights.

[Anonymous]

In the little town of Rock hill its not.

[TheWizard]

Not what?

[Dfsg]

I'm confuzzled :D

[teenboy9]

I do not know why you feel you need to insult me, and I find it to bad that you cannot try and see things in different ways, or at least allow the exploration to test your own faith. Many conservatives follow the bible without question, and I guess I can understand that. But you really do not understand liberal Christians if you believe your description. I believe what God says; humans are sinful, and corruptible. The bible is writing by the spirit of God, but the hand of man. More examination of the texts must be done, when inconsistencies between the bible and what science has proven occurs, passages must be looked at closer. I have to look and think, "Was the writer trying to say what I thought he was actually trying to say?" We can agree that many parts of the bible are not very direct in its language, with many sections created to be a single document and not a connecting section of a book. But please lets not get into this we are here for a different reason.
Once again I said nothing about being married in a church. Religion can have their own rules like country clubs do. No one is spitting anywhere. All I say is that homosexuals have the same civil rights as any other social, ethnic, religious, or racial group. Legally they have the right to civil unions, and to the same benefits as marriages, and heterosexual civil unions. Kerry and Bush are not very different politically.
And I know we have been at this for a while but we are not at the point to use politicians, as morality compasses are we? Washington had slaves, JFK sneaked away from his security and the man holding the nuclear launch codes to have sex with hookers endangering american lives. Nixon, almost all Presidents have had their own "sinful" acts. Clinton had oral sex with his intern. Is this where you look for your moral values?

[TheWizard]

Interesting outlook on this issue. :)

[Daemoniis]

Dfsg,

Jesus came as a living sacrifice for us, which banished all the old Jewish laws. Yes, Jews still try to follow the rules, but Christians don't need to.

I hate it when people use Deuteronomy and such against me. Jesus suffered so I wouldn't need to worry about the sacrifices of Jewish law.
Wrong:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
Matthew 5:17-19, NIV
As we can see, according to Jesus himself the Law must be still obeyed. Which makes perfect sense if we remember that Jesus was a Jewish eschatological prophet and that Christianity started off as a Jewish sect.

Why do fundies always insist on selective reading of the Scripture?

[Dfsg]

Well, Jesus ended the Sacrifices for sins, at least. Mathew chapter 5 is an interesting chapter to debate indeed. Yet, it still keeps makes homosexual acts a sin, and it still makes no recognition of a man-man or woman-woman maraige.

[TheWizard]

Its a religious scandle. And its just plain wrong to not let gays enjoy the same rights as other people.

[teenboy9]

Gay Unions are not a religious matter, but the second the subject is brought up the ceremony suddenly is placed in the Church. But these last few comments prove my point on the religious side of this post. You can’t just take the bible and except it all without examination because of these inconsistencies. If you do not address these parts the bible, it does not make sense.

[TheWizard]

Its called the babble :)

[Dfsg]

Gay Unions are not a religious matter, but the second the subject is brought up the ceremony suddenly is placed in the Church. But these last few comments prove my point on the religious side of this post. You can’t just take the bible and except it all without examination because of these inconsistencies. If you do not address these parts the bible, it does not make sense.

There isn't one inconsistency with the Bible- there are just conflicting interpritations. But, I guess we'll see what the US government says about the issue. Isn't the vote on the ammendment coming up in a few days?

[teenboy9]

OK Dfsg you keep talking about seperation of church and state. Please with this issue do the same. Abortion laws have gone back and forth, and start to look like they are going back again. All this is about who can manipulate the system the best.

[Dfsg]

What bothers me is that aborted fetal tissue is used in some vaccine manufacture, and that is yet another argument.

[teenboy9]

lets leave that whole subject for a different post

[Dfsg]

Yup, that's one for the government to control, as it is a non religious practice. Maraige is a religious practice, well, it has been until the United States thought they could change it.

[teenboy9]

Please Dfsg I again say GAY UNIONS IS A MATTER FOR THE GOVERMENT. Yes if its in a church, then it is, but if your in front of a judge ITS NOT.

[Daemoniis]

Dfsg

Well, Jesus ended the Sacrifices for sins, at least.
Scripural reference, please? In Jesus' own words, of course. Because, as far as I am concerned, Jesus never said a single word about abolishing sacrifice. I would like you to provide some evidence for your claims.

Mathew chapter 5 is an interesting chapter to debate indeed. Yet, it still keeps makes homosexual acts a sin, and it still makes no recognition of a man-man or woman-woman maraige.
Fine. However, if you insist on following the Scripture in the matters of same-sex marriage, I will in turn insist that you follow all of it, or drop it altogether. In other words, I will insist that you follow every rule, including the one about killing practicing homosexuals.

Remember: you don't get to be lukewarm about the Scripture. You either follow it, or you don't. There's no middle ground here. You said it yourself, remember (in your little rant about liberal Christians)? Practice what you preach, Christian.

[TheWizard]

Don't you realize that there is not a god, therefore, gay marrage is not a sin because there is no such thing as sin.

[za20101]

I have to say that gay marriages are one more thing that is causing America to destruct. I mean, I saw a show on MTV about gay couples getting married, and this one guy on there said, that if gay people have the right to get married, then what will stop people who like to have sex w/ animals from marrying their dog. I mean, we give people an inch, and they will take a mile. Pretty soon, people will be married to everyone and everything. We should really get America back to God and make marriage holy and biblical. Not only is gay marriages bad, but being gay itself is bad. The bible plainly states that it is wrong, and that homosexuals are condemned to hell.

[TheWizard]

Gays aren't bad. Who cares what the bible says. And thank god you aren't president.

[AC.wAkeBoArDin.06]

my neighbors are around 30 years old and they are lesbians....they are cooler than some of my other strait neighbors...i dont find them any different at all

[teenboy9]

za20101, Marriage within a church is a complex debate, but marriage by a judge something outside of the church is not. Its an obvious civil rights violation to not allow americans to marry each other. (Civil Unions) za20101 tell me how gay marriages are causing the USA to destruct. Now I dont mean a response like "Gay marriages are wrong, and destroy society" What I am asking for is just very simply give me some facts, not conjecture. Now you cant give me a bible answer either. All I really want is some facts, not trying to shut down your opinion, I just want to know why you think that america will be destroyed if gays marry, what facts are you getting this from?

[Dfsg]

Josh- it's a debate forum, not a forum to state an opinion with no facts :P

And about sacrifices, in the words of Paul: "Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God- this is your spiritual act of worship. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is- his good, pleasing, and perfect will."

This is a contrast to the old days of animal sacrifices, showing that they don't apply any more. The important thing is to sacrifice yourself, sacrifice every part of you that is not of God.

This one seals the deal: "Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for ther sins once for all when he offered himself. For the law appoints as high priests men who are weak, but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever."

This clearly puts Jesus's death above Jewish law.

In the words of Jesus's apostle John: "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense- Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the attoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

This extends Jesus's grace to anyone in the world who will take it.

There are more references, so don't tell me that the Bible doesn't say Jesus is above Jewish Law.

[teenboy9]

He is not telling that it doesn't. He is just pointing out a part which is directly from Jesus, who is saying something different.

[teenboy9]

Hey za20101, I am not calling you out for a battle here, I just want to know what facts you get your ideas from. They just seem so random and out of the blue like me saying "all jewish people are going to eat all the pies in the world, and we must stop them!" I dont understand where your coming from?

[kingofpythias]

I am sorry it has been so long, I found out this morning, my boyfriend, Curtis James Harlan, 14, known him since he was born, (im 4 months older than him and we were neighbors), Died at 10:18 central time in surgery after a car accident. They thought he was going to be fine after his first surgery. They didn't get all of his infection out. 2 weeks ago he was in a car accident. A Klan member smashed straight into him and died but Curtis was strong. He was sent into surgery and let out 3 days later. After that he was going to need physical therapy. The doctors noticed some infection building and it needed removed. He died in surgery. I have a picture of him if anyone wants to see it. What I want is Prayers, not Tears. I purchased his funeral and will be attending it Tuesday. I also payed off his medical bills. And always remember, pray, don't cry.

[Daemoniis]

Dfsg,

There are more references, so don't tell me that the Bible doesn't say Jesus is above Jewish Law.
I'm afraid you misunderstood the core of my argument. I am not claiming that Jesus is below (or above for that matter) the Law. I am simply pointing out that Jesus told his followers to keep the Law.

[Dfsg]

I said that, and redefined how Jesus reinterprited the law, so it is followed in a new way, through him, and through self-sacrifice on our own ends.

Yet, how did a Gay Marriage argument become this argument?

What are your thoughts on Gay Marriage?

[teenboy9]

I am so sorry for your loss. We all get into debates and forget how people are actually the subject of this. How people placed on an extreme side of aurguments, more like partly insane, take out their beliefs on people who do on agree with them. This is a sad, and extreme event that shows us we need to be more open with our beliefs.

[Golobulus]

I think gay marraige should be legal. HOWEVER, any religion should be permitted to ignore the government legalizing it if they should choose to. Because Christianity believes in homosexuality as a sin, so they should not be forced by the government to perform said marraiges. After all, church and state ARE separate

[SaTaN_iz_GoD]

wow many post on here since i started this topic on may 26 or whatever.

[teenboy9]

Gay Civil Unions should be legal, if its a legal union, outside any system other then the goverment it self it should be allowed. The Church is seperate from the state. The state is not the church and is not in place to hold up the morals of a particular group. Private groups have the right to do what they want, I agree. But its the goverments job to hold up and protect the civil rights of ALL its citizens.

[fearus]

i think that being gay is not natural. i have nothing against gays, most of the ones i know are really nice. however, there is no ignoring the facts. the body of a mail has a digit between the legs. the female body has a hole. the two fit together like puzzle pieces. the other hole on the womens and mans body, the sphyncter, produces fecies. the penis, of course, produces spirm, and the womans body produces eggs. the two mix magicly and produce life. if thats not natural, i don't know what is.

during 'striaght' intercorse, both the male and female parts, if operating functionaly,produce lub to allow the penis to penetrate easier. there are so many ways that the male and female parts fit together, that it is uncanny. now lets look at a couple of forms of gay intercorse. one is like pushing two square pegs together. it is just not natural and they don't fit. another is, more simmilar to the m/f way, however, the buttux produces no said lubs and is mad for exit only.

thirdly, all the gays that i have ever met had some sort of tramma growing up. i suspect that that is what caused them to become gay. i even know several who have admitted so. so that is unnatural.

now, i know that i have just pissed off a lot of people, however, am not a homofobe. believe it or not. i do not believe it is natural, but i except them. i donot believe we should stone them to death as the bible says, and i do not think that they should be completely shunned from society, i just wish that they would keep to themselves a little better. therefore, i say nay to gay mirrage. it is a sacred thing.

and to wiz. sin is based on morals. so is there no ultimate consequence for not having morals? are you tossing out morals?

[teenboy9]

fearus, I am not angry and respect what you said, but hear me out on a few pieces of information.

Yes you could say homosexual sex is unnatural because the penis is not meant to go in the butt. The penis is meant to go in the vagina. Some alien could ask why? What is the point of this natural ritual? And they would be told that in heterosexual sex the penis is put in the vagina and releases sperm to fertilize the egg. Why? The alien might ask? Well because sex is meant to produce children.
You are right, nature (god, etc...) clearly made men and women in a certain way to do a certain act, but if you are using condoms, or anything designed to prevent pregnancy then that’s unnatural. What is natural is using your body parts as nature wanted you to, and there would be some form of natural condom if nature designed the human body for sex without pregnancy. Also oral sex is just as unnatural as homosexual sex. Yet people use condoms, and lots of people who believe they are having sex like nature wanted, also take part in oral sex. The Catholic Church, in the past did not marry heterosexual couples that could not produce children for the same root reason why the Catholic Church does not marry homosexual couples. The Catholic Church said God intended marriage to produce more people, and one that cannot is a sin. Yet today they do marry couples that cannot produce children.

How many homosexuals do you know? When you use the term "the gays" you make it sound like it’s an alien race that you have met only a few times. I have 12 close friends, three of them are gay. One of them grew up in a regular rich family; his parents are even a closer couple then my parents. The second is this girl who is one of the sweetest girls in my school, her parents got a divorce a few years ago, but it was not a rocky divorce, it was an agreed upon decision. Was a little sad but not that bad, both parents were very supportive. The last is Jason, we have been friends since Pre School and have done lots of the same stuff, sports, classes, same friends, and we live a few blocks apart. He had a regular childhood, and he is gay, but I am not. If he could "catch it" I would have too.
In the 50's programs came out to try and help homosexuals become hetero again, because it’s unnatural and if it is unnatural then we can fix it. These programs continued into the 70's when a research group looked over the data on people put through the program. They found out, looking at everything from the few decades, and from all the private programs the success rate was put at a percentage of 0.0% to 0.1%. This is one of the reasons why most of the medical world today does not look at homosexuality as a mental disability. As I have said earlier, their are 63 so far identified animals that naturally have a homosexual portion of their population. (Including, dogs, cats, gorillas, and dragonflies) In many of these animals, these populations benefit the continuation of their species. This is because with no children of their own they help guard, and raise fellow animals in their pack.

[fearus]

well, first of all, i too respect what you say. however...

The Catholic Church, in the past did not marry heterosexual couples that could not produce children for the same root reason why the Catholic Church does not marry homosexual couples.
this is not entirely true. that was one of the most contraversial things to have been said/done in the catholic church.

How many homosexuals do you know? When you use the term "the gays" you make it sound like it’s an alien race that you have met only a few times. terribly sorry to any homosexuals, i meant absolutely nothing by it. i will try to remember that it may be offensive. and countless numbers.

One of them grew up in a regular rich family; his parents are even a closer couple then my parents. was he neglected because they were so tight? was he perhaps, smothered?

The second is this girl who is one of the sweetest girls in my school, her parents got a divorce a few years ago, but it was not a rocky divorce, it was an agreed upon decision no matter what was agreed apon, it was still a divorce. divorce is quite difficult on children. even if they don't show it, or don't even know it, they may still be trammatized by such an event.

I have said earlier, their are 63 so far identified animals that naturally have a homosexual portion of their population. (Including, dogs, cats, gorillas, and dragonflies) In many of these animals, these populations benefit the continuation of their species. This is because with no children of their own they help guard, and raise fellow animals in their pack. i have read about this. it is of course, a much different case in humans. first off, i do not believe it is full blown homosexuality, it think it is an instinct to protect the young in animals. the homosexuals do no such thing. there is no because 'without children of their own... they protect other young...' etc.

ps: i am sorry to have offended any homosexuals, and this will remain true throughout my posts.

pps: i will be out of town for a week so if i don't post, im not ignoring you.

[Ziferten]

I find gay/lesbian couples to be alright. But when they come and try to reap the benefits of marriage off of our precious already-misused tax money, they have gone too far. It is a bond between a man and a woman, through the church. I am a liberitarian. The heck with government, stay out of marriage.

[teenboy9]

It is interesting that the sentence before you say "[Marriage] is a bond between a man and a woman," you talk about how if gays are allowed to marry it will take the little goody bag marriage can provide. So you’re saying since gay unions could take some benefit away from people marrying, they should stop gay marriage? Many of these people who want to get married, are not trying to steal benefits away from other Americans, all they want is equal rights with any other American citizen. They do not want to change people’s religion, or force them to change their views; they just want the rights promised to them as American citizens. None of this has to take place in a church, or be connected to any religion. Many are right when they say gay civil unions are about recognition, and respect, but more importantly they are about letting Americans live a happy, free live in a country founded on the protection of Civil Liberties.

[teenboy9]

I have been away for a few days, but am back.

"This is not entirely true. That was one of the most controversial things to have been said/done in the Catholic Church."
Yes it is true because you just said it is, just because it was controversial does not mean it was not there. To me it makes perfect sense that you would not allow people who can not produce children to marry in a group that says gay marriage is wrong because the marriage does not produce anything. But gay marriage is controversial, does that mean it is not an issue and should also be supported?

So your telling me my first friends traumatic event that mentally affected her so much that it changed her sexuality was that her parents were really nice? With the rate of divorce in this country, if divorce could cause people to change sexuality, we would defiantly have a heck of a lot more homosexuals. I think if you look into anyone’s history you would see some negative events (or even) very positive events, and that has not affected their sexuality.

Well if you want to disagree with scientific evidence, then fine. But please do not try and distort what the studies found.

I realize there is no way not to offend people when you get into heated debates. Simply we have to remember that we are not trying to change each other’s views, just expressing our own.

[Waiting]

no1 against it has still made me understand why it shudnt be allowed? maybe im dumb, but isint it against free will?

[Jono]

Trying out new MOD here, merging the two threads together :)

[fearus]

I think if you look into anyone’s history you would see some negative events (or even) very positive events, and that has not affected their sexuality.



not everyone is the same. everyone reacts to different events in different ways. you say it as if all humans are 'programmed' to react in the same way to every situation.

Well if you want to disagree with scientific evidence, then fine. But please do not try and distort what the studies found.
wait just a minute, i did not distort anything. however, i obviously enterpretted it differently. animals are not like humans. it is not the same, no matter what you say. they are not homosexual in the way humans are homosexual. they are 'homosexuals' just so they can protect the younger generations. after all, that is what animals live to do. they do not think about 'what movie they want to go see this afternoon, or, what clothes they want to wear, they just think how they can repopulate the speciese. animals do not get pleasure out of sex they way we do. for most animals, it is painful. they do not do it for fun, they do it so that they can populate their speciese. gay animals do not become homosexuals because they dont like to bone the opposite sex of the speciese, they do it for the betterment of their speciese.


Yes it is true because you just said it is, just because it was controversial does not mean it was not there. To me it makes perfect sense that you would not allow people who can not produce children to marry in a group that says gay marriage is wrong because the marriage does not produce anything. But gay marriage is controversial, does that mean it is not an issue and should also be supported?
if the lord intended them to be barren then that is how they should be. there is no possible way for that person to have children. however, most gays are capable of having children, but they just get married for enjoyment. they could produce children if they wanted.

[teen_boi00]

I think gay marriage is wrong (and hey, i might be bi, so it's not that i'm a homophobe), b/c it's something for a man and a woman. There should just a be a different ceremony performed for gays and lesbians. Anyways, i think that it's something 'sacrad' (I'm not reoligious at all), that should be for men and women, it's like sports team, there's a guys team, a girls team and the co-ed team (my great analagy, haha)

[TheWizard]

Not leting gays marry is simply prejudice and its as evil as prejudice against blacks, indians, jews, etc. Its a long list of prejudice being corrected by the courts because the prejudice is evil and wrong.

Gays should marry (in spirit at least) just to piss off the damn homophobies.

They are not asking for special rights they are asking for equal rights. If it takes a revolution then so be it. Until this issue came up I never understood why people hated christians so much. Now I understand clearly.

[Dfsg]

Prejudice? Prejudice is pre-judging someone. Not allowing gays to marry isn't making an empty judgement about an individual homosexual's character based on their sexual orientation.

I believe that there should be no gay maraige, but does that make me a prejudiced person? No! I have no problem with a gay person. I found out that a very good friend of mine is bisexual. She's still a friend. When I meet a new gay person, I don't judge their character at all. That= no prejudice.

And that is much more tolerance than many other groups generally get.

[Dfsg]

No one said mariage was a right. It doesn't appear in the constitution. Thanks to the anti-federalitsts, you have no rights that aren't stipulated. There is nothing to be equal here.

It isn't some terrible injustice. Just like a foreigner can't run for president, or a 12 year old can't drive a car, there are limitations on things. If we had a perfect communist society, maybe we would allow this kind of thing, but we live in a country guided by morals, and I'm darned glad to live here.

You want perfectly equal rights? Move to China, Vietnam, or Cuba. But you'll soon find that it is much better where you are now. Any communist country where atheism rules, morals are dead, and everyone is socially equal is a terrible place to live.

Also, don't throw African Americans at me. "Oh, they got freedoms, so lets all be happy and give everyone the freedom to do anything!" There are several African Americans who are sick of people using them as a reason why Gays should be allowed to marry. Many black pastors speak out against gay marraige. I am sickened that you would lower their heroic struggle to such a low as a simple gay marraige argument.

[TheWizard]

There you go hiding behind the issues use "morals" as an excuse to be prejudice. There was a time when women couldn't vote, blacks counldn't vote, etc. One day gays will be able to marry sinply because there is a great injudice that must be corrected

[Dfsg]

Tell me how being against gay maraige is prejudiced.

This is the definition of prejudice:
An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.

Does anyone say that hate, fear, or detest a particular homosexual, before judging his/her character? No! I, and many other gay mariage oposers, still judge a homosexual based upon their own character. If I find an annoying homosexual, I'll deal with them the same way I deal with annoying heterosexuals. If I think a homosexual has a good personality, I'll most likely befriend that person. Yet, I'm still against gay mariage.

So, It is NOT PREJUDICED to be against gay mariage. And I should take offense that you would call me a prejudiced person for having that view.

[TheWizard]

Edit: I'm way to angry to respond. Sorry

[Anonymous]

I dont belive members of homosexuality sould be aloud to marry. yet i cant speak because one of my best friends is a member of homosexuality and another one is a member of bisexuality. in my head i just remember Romans 1:25-32

25: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. A-men'.
26: For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27: And likewisw also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned iin their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28: And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29: Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deciet, maliganity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors, of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, impaceable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such tings are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

[Dfsg]

I've backed up what I said before.

Yet, I find your criticism very poorly constructed. It is true that many black churches opose gay rights, and I know black pastors that do, too. You are trying to tell me that the black's struggle to gain citizenship, the right to vote, and eqality is equal to the Gay's struggle to vote.

That struggle was truely a noble one. Racism has no foundation in the Christian Bible, and wasn't intended to be a big part of this nation. There is no nature that says that people of different races can't be equal. It was noble of them to take on the government as they did. People lost their lives for freedom.

Now you compare it to the Homosexual's journey to get gay mariage. Most Black Americans I know would destest you for saying that.

And somehow you threw animals in there, and criticized me for comparing Gays to animals? Huh? Don't put words in my mouth.

[TheWizard]

You are so wrong. The struggle for freedom and equality is an honorable venture that will eventually overcome hate.

Your statements reinforce your blind prejudice toward gays.

Someday you will remember this conversation and you will be ashamed of your part in it.

[Lost_and_fallen]

You make me understand why people burn churches. They are evil breeding grounds for people who have small brains, I blame religion for this mess. Damn them all to hell.


heh, sorry if I shouldn't be laughing but the damn them all to hell bit was a bit ironic seeing as it was invented as part of christianity and you're talking about burning down churches.
Made me laugh....

[TheWizard]

I was upset sorry.

[Anonymous]

Josh you need to be a little more carefull about how opined minded you are. remember we are not on Gov, and you told us to watch other peoples fellings. Somepeople can close this site down for a commit like that. I know i could i have that power. but i wont.

[TheWizard]

I just wished people could be nice to others.

[Dfsg]

Josh, i still dare you to prove that I am prejudiced. Read the definition again, and show me how I am prejudiced.

[maximan]

i think the goverment limiting gay marraige is just cruel. Gay's Lesbian's are very very nice people...they're not vile or anything (i have some g/L friends, and they're awesome). As for the "but marraige is an institution between a man and woman as said by the bible!" argument...this is why our forefathers said religion should be kept seperate from government. decisions in government should have NOTHING to do with what religious beliefs the person has. therefore, there is NOTHING at all wrong with gay marraige. AMEN!

[teenboy9]

I had stopped coming to this post because useful debate was turning into mindless fighting. But I had to point this out, at a point did anyone else notice Dfsg saying that if you want equal rights you should move to Cuba?!!?!! I thought that was funny.
But on a serious note, this a hard debate to get moving anywhere. Some people can only see that if gays get married, then that will destroy their belief system, they want to feel that what they believe is true, and that secure feeling that they are morally right has been kept for many years with the spread of christianity. With everyone around them agreeing with them, they do not feel lost, what a great feeling that must be. But if someone is going another way, the lives built on faith may no longer seem so secure. We also have people who see religious people as hate filled, morally high bigots, slowly destroying our world with horrible bloody wars fighting for non existent creatures. But these view points are not true, religious people can be good people, they can also be right, but so can atheists, and people of other beliefs. This all comes down to what you view, but in a free country there should be HEALTHY debate, and room for us all. Gays should be allowed to comes together with all the same rights as a heterosexual couple, Christians, can keep their churches to themselves, and other groups have the same right to discriminate Christians from their ceremonies if they wish. Its called a free country for a reason, and I prey to God your wrong Dfsg because if Cuba has a freer society then us, then America has no hope.

[TheWizard]

^^Yeah^^

[kodykaras_20]

i agree

[Liquidkid]

MY moms a lesbian, i love her, but i still think its fcuking wrong that they be allowed to pursue marriage, it gets other people caught in the crossfire, and if you love each other, why do you need mariage

[teenboy9]

What do you mean "people get caught in the crossfire." Do you mean, YOU have gotten caught in the crossfire?

[Liquidkid]

yeah cus its going to be such ****ing joy the day my i get an invitation to my moms wedding~ i don't care how they live but dont go getting the rest of the world involved, leave well enuff alone

[teenboy9]

Why? If you mom was going to marry a man, would be saying the same thing?

[Liquidkid]

no i wouldnt, but then she wouldnt be asking me to accept her lifestyle, i never will, she ruined my young life and and wasted about 9 years of my fathers, and now shes asking me to accept it? **** that. dont talk about **** you dont understand

[TheWizard]

You need to see things from her side. Isn't she allowed to be happy?

[Liquidkid]

why does she need marriage to be happy~ shes already validated her own feelings by living the way she does, i dont condemn her lifestyle, but she doesnt need a marriage and therefor shouldnt require one to be happy~ if shes not already happy in her "relationship" then theres no point in marriage, happiness does not require a ceremony, and if it does, then its false happiness, regardless of anything anyone ever tells me, ill always be against gay marriage~

[teenboy9]

Well if what you say is true, why should anyone get married? If its just a stupid ceremony? Marriage is something (hetertosexual or homosexual) people like not because they need it to be happy, but it is a way to express a loving comitment to each other that makes it feel like the two are bound to each other. I think you have been getting a lot of pain from the life your mom wants to lead. She is gay, and just like everyone else she to completly accept and love herself to be happy. The world is not always accepting, but something like this is something she NEEDS to do. You have to understand that, and work through your views, and the problems which have developed for YOU because your mom is gay. To solve YOUR problems, you need to resolve YOUR feelings about your moms life to be happy, not just stop your moms life so you can be happy.

[Liquidkid]

u totally ignored my main point~ i dont mind her being happy, but does she have to shout it to the world, a wedding is something between a man and a woman and it should always be that way~ its tradition, my feelings~ i love my mother, to a point, pain? nope that was over a year after she left my father~ its simply my opinion that she shouldnt have the legal right to bring another woman into my family, i dont care if they have a get together, but im not gunna accept some woman into my family just because my mother sees fit to get "married"

i recomend you shut your mouth about things, you dont understand, happiness is not contingent upon what a piece of paper tells you your name or spouse is, if she believes it is then she obviously has no regard for those around her, my aunts, uncle etc accept her lifestyle, but i know theyd be against having that woman inducted into there family, NO one can make them accept it but they dont have a choice if marriage is allowed, create a new ceremony but i dont think they should be brought into the family of there spouse, after all, they have no genes to pass on so they dont need the family name

your "opinions" arent going to influence mine, my beliefs have been set in stone for the last 5 years, so dont try and tell me i have feelings to resolve, when ive have done so for years



me last post here~ u know my opinions

[teenboy9]

Its just kinda sad, I think its just too bad you cant understand what your mom is doing. Your post seems different then Dfsg, or others who are trying to express their beliefs, your different. I think your views come from pain. It does not have to do with screaming anything, she just wants to go on with her life, if she was marrying a man or a woman it is something she feels she needs to do. Most couples feel like that marriage is higher level of a relationship, most people want to get married, so does you mother, it has nothing to do with being gay or not. She felt like she needed to get married the first time around to your father, so it makes sense that she wants to get married again. From the way you write your posts, it SEEMS like you have been hurt, maybe just because she got divorced, or maybe you do not understand why she NEEDS to be gay?

[Liquidkid]

its funny how badly your misinterpreting things, if it was pain or hate i wouldnt tell my mom i every few days or call whenever im going to be late, im perfectly friendly with her mate, we play tennis sometimes, i just dont want her to be related to me by law, they can have any ceremony they want~

stop trying to act all knowing~ your making yourself sound like an idiot

[Jono]

I have to ask though. What exactly are you against homosexual weddings for? You've yet to actually say why. Seems more like personal feelings rather than beliefs.

[teenboy9]

I apologize if you believed I was trying to sound "all knowing" only an idiot would talk like that. I just try to talk with what I know, and all I know is your few posts, I did not get the video with you and your moms fiancé playing tennis. You write like you are emotionally upset, thats the only reason I say these things.

[Liquidkid]

I have to ask though. What exactly are you against homosexual weddings for? You've yet to actually say why. Seems more like personal feelings rather than beliefs.


i dont mind living with both women, hell i dont mind having dinner with them half the time, i just don't want her in the family, its a discrace to my name,i was talking with my f.o.b. grandpa the other day and he agreed~

bottom line~ the lifestyle choice is all yours but don't force that lifestyle into someones family~

its not logical to not want her in my family, i suppose you could say its tradition or pride, two familys should not be merged unless a man and a woman are involved



So I say go ahead- love those of your same gender. Move in together, be proud of it. Just don't expect to be recognized as maried.-dsfg

^my opinion summed up i guess, i just have a little more experience

[teenboy9]

I dont think its tradition and pride. These things are things based on love, family, and bonds. That is all present here, if you love your family you should be proud of it, you cant say you will feel pride only if people in your family do specific things you like only. You say you dont "mind" living with them, or dont "mind" haveing dinner with them HALF THE TIME. You seem to be saying that you would rather not have your mom being gay. You seem to be living with how your mom is, but it does not seem like you are really accepting them.

[Liquidkid]

i said half the time because i live 2 weeks with my father, two weeks with my mother, baka


and i dont "Mind" living with my father either, and pride is a personal thing,and can be in anything,whatever you believe in. and i didnt put love anywhere in there, love is to strong of a term i think, i would do anything for my mother and father if they needed it,even give my life, but i still dont call it "love", love is something that causes you to think unrationally, and in terms of black and white, i see the world in more of shades of grey, there is nothing wonderful about marriage, its simply a tradition, it would hurt noone to change that tradition, but traditions are traditions for a reason, and it would do no good to change this other then satisfying a few desires while incuring the anger of the christian religion, if there is a wedding, it should have a totally different ceremony, and god should have no presence in it. when your looking at these sort of things you have to view them in a more pragmatic way, not just on your foolish ideas of "right" and "wrong", unless you believe that your opinion is faultless,



i think traditions need to be upheld, in my family, if a male is getting married his wife is being brought into the family, if a women is getting married she is being brought into a different family, where does a gay marriage leave us, none the better, you have your way of living and ill have mine, im indeferential towards my father as i am to my mothers mate, i simply used my own expierience as an example.

and while im posting, do you agree with interfamily marriages? its letting people do what they want, and its not hurting anyone, it has the same benefits and drawbacks of gay marriage, both go against tradition, and both of them are caused purely on what people Want to do.

phew ~end rant, on a lighter note, what do you guys think of my debating skills?

[teenboy9]

Tradition is not something that is set in stone. It use to be tradition for girls to marry adult men around the age of 13. It use to be traditional to kill cattle during jewish ceremony. It use to be traditional for men to have boy sex slaves during the roman era. It also use to be tradition not to allow people who could not produce children to marry in the Christian church. Traditions are nothing more then patterns in society, pride is a feeling not an excuse to exclude. For you marriage means little, but for your mom it means a lot. If you are so concerned about marriage, why not be concerned with real problems, like the yearly divorce rate in the USA, or Reality Shows where people vote which people they see on TV get married? I can respect peoples beliefs when they come from rational thinking. But from reading your posts it seems like your beliefs com from a very irrational emotional place, and I am not the only one who thinks that. Before you cower, shielding your position under the words of tradition and pride think about where you are really coming from. I am just some guy on the internet, fuck me. REALLY look at yourself, because if you trip up now with something as important as your family, your life, no matter how good it may be will always have this tiny rotting hole.

[Liquidkid]

just because something Can be changed doesnt meen they should, prohibiting gay marriage may cause a little emotional discord, but it isnt forcing young girls into marriage, slaughtering animals or using young males as sex slaves, pride Can be a feeling to exclude people, if thats how you feel you can have pride in it, japan segregated itself from the world for 150 years because they didnt want the influence of the outside world corrupting their people, japan is and always will be the nation that I most admire, they put a high value on honour, family and tradition~

Very irrational emotional place? HA, maybe if i was still 6, if my mothers lifestyle choice still effects me at all its in the fact that im stuck here arguing with a little try hard debatist who thinks about nothing but the emotions of the protagonist group, not the antagonist, and couldnt use a good example to save his life~

oh and your still excluding my main point, you cant change a religion, a tradition, fine, but to allow gay marriage would be to begin the slow dismantlement of the christian belief system, you can have any ceremony you want and have the law procaim that you are now joined as husband and husband or wife and wife, but you cant simply Change marriage because its part of a religion, hell, why not just start a totally new religion using the same beliefs of christianity~

bhuddist monks are supposed to be vegitarians, but some choose not to, they do not however press to change it so that monks dont have to be bhuddist, they simply live there own way without changing the religion, why cant the homosexual do the same thing, create a new procedure or ceremony for marriage without forcing change in one that has existed for over a millenium~


tiny rotting hole? nope actually i wouldnt feel bad or good if it became totally illegal for gay intercourse to occur, but if you havent noticed, thats just my belief and im not forcing it into anyones lives or religion, nor trying to bluntly force it into the skull of those who disagree~ why dont you do the same?

[teenboy9]

I am not trying to force you in any way, please understand that. There is no reason to start throwing mean comments around. All I am trying to express is that your mom is not forcing the Pope's (or other Christian leaders) hand over her head, and force him to marry her and her fiancé, in the hopes that for some reason that little event will bring down the church. All she wants to do is live her life, and have a closer loving relationship, bonded by love and a ceremony. (Something that almost all heterosexual couples feel like they need). I am not trying to change to force you to believe something you don’t. I am just trying to say that you many not understand it, but your mom wants this, and you should respect her for it.

[Liquidkid]

yaawwnnn im done with this discussion~ i have my beliefs and nothing anyone but god tells me(and i dont believe in god) is going to change my mind~ i think the way i think is correct and thats that~

pc

[Jono]

yaawwnnn im done with this discussion~ i have my beliefs and nothing anyone but god tells me(and i dont believe in god) is going to change my mind~ i think the way i think is correct and thats that~

pc

Then you, my dear, are a very narrowminded person. Even the most stubborn of people should be open to changing views.

[Liquidkid]

yaawwnnn im done with this discussion~ i have my beliefs and nothing anyone but god tells me(and i dont believe in god) is going to change my mind~ i think the way i think is correct and thats that~

pc

Then you, my dear, are a very narrowminded person. Even the most stubborn of people should be open to changing views.


an openminded person should realise that after someones thought over the same topic for 7 years, about half their life, theyre not likely to change there opinions simply because someone else thinks otherwise~

emotions can only play a part in my opinion for so long, after a while you realise what it must be like from others ppls points of views, this isnt some ill conceived conception of whats right or wrong for me~

[teenboy9]

Its not some little thing on whats right or wrong. Whats right or wrong is not what this is about. I understand that you are not going to change your mind, because you have had a life time of this, a lifetime of emotions, and a lifetime of those emotions develope into opinions. I am not here to say your wrong, or to get you to change your opinion, because these things have developed over your life, and I cant open your mind. All I am trying to say is that TRY to understand where your mom is coming from. You dont have to agree with her, but you should support her, for at least no other reason beyond she is your mother.

[Liquidkid]

Its not some little thing on whats right or wrong. Whats right or wrong is not what this is about. I understand that you are not going to change your mind, because you have had a life time of this, a lifetime of emotions, and a lifetime of those emotions develope into opinions. I am not here to say your wrong, or to get you to change your opinion, because these things have developed over your life, and I cant open your mind. All I am trying to say is that TRY to understand where your mom is coming from. You dont have to agree with her, but you should support her, for at least no other reason beyond she is your mother.


once again my opinions havent been based on emotions for years and i have understood where my mom is coming from, she wants to be treated as a normal person, she wants to change a tradition thats been held for over a millenium, she wants to fufill her own desires even if others disagree, i do understand her, but i disagree with that~ and i have heard gay people who agree gay marriage doesnt belong in the christian church also

[Whisper]

I don't care weither Gay's and lesbians are allowed to be married in a church. I plain old don't see the point in marriage. I'm never getting married, I'm not in the slightest bit religous, so for me to go into a church and have a preist proclaim that I have made a covenent with god to be with a girl till I die, no thank you. If I love a girl then I'll live with her till I die, I don't need to get married.

[dbzdog]

I beleive that it is unfair for ppl to not let other ppl be who they are. everyone should have the right to do something that makes them feel good (especially in the case of love).

We all have the right to experience it, whether ot not this love is of a homosexual nature. It is wrong to dismiss ones feelings because they are not the ideal model citizen or or gay/lesbian.

It is also wrong to even have to create a law to banish gay/lesbian marriages. Who gave them the right to decide what is right and what is wrong.

These are the ppl who vote. If you take away there ability to love a person of the same sex then they won't vote. Especially if they're a majority.

In conclusion; we all have the right to be what/who ever we want to be. No one should tell you other wise.

-Dan

[teenboy9]

Liquidkid, the one thing I do not understand is why you are trying to "hold up a tradition". Marriage has not been the same thing, practiced for a "millennium". Marriage was used to exchange goods between families. Also women were looked on as having to be taken care of, so once the girl got old enough she got married so she would be taken care of by her husband and his family. These marriages were not for love, so that when the girl was too old to taken care by her mother, she got "married" and was taken care by her husband, and this took place around the ages of 12-14 to a middle aged man. Over time marriage CHANGED, to be completely a religious act, the husband, the wife and the children they created were symbolic of the nature between man and God. Once again though marriage started to CHANGE people wanted to get married because they felt love for each other, and felt marriage itself was no longer a symbol of Christianity, but a symbol of their love. That time can be pin pointed to when the Christian church started to marry men and women who could not produce children, causing the symbolic religious nature of marriage to fall away. Flash forward a few hundred years to present day. To a new time in marriage, a time like NO OTHER in the history of marriage, a time where the current values of marriage are ones you want to protect. In this time over half the marriages that occur in the USA each year will end in divorce. A time where you can go to places live Los Vegas and get married in a drunken haze in 5 minutes under the eyes of God. A time where we can go online, text messages your vote for the people you want to see get married next week on TV. You are right when you say marriage is in danger, but your not seeing the real problems, your just staring right in the face of the only thing that might save it all. Most people do not value marriage as they use to, and that’s why its falling apart, but by bringing in a fresh population of people who want t get married, a population which is fighting tooth and nail for it, and if they do get it there going to value the work they did to get it. They are going to value the fact that there was a possibility they would not have been able to get married. This is a group of people who will understand how sacred and rare, strong bonded, love filled marriages truly are. But please explain to me how gay marriage is going to do harm?

[Ria421m]

I have to agree with you. I am catholic, and I know that even the church says not to discriminate, they say that homosexuality is a sin, but most everything is a sin anyway.
On the other hand, most people in the government are christian, you see no athiests, but they should understand that if this really is a free country, then all people should have the right to marry. Marriage doesn't have to be made in a church, and just because everyones afraid of it, doesn't mean that other people can't live. All people in America should have the right to live happily as long as they are not threatening the lives of others, and I really don't think being gay is threatening our lives is it??
Am I making sense?

[Liquidkid]

harm? nothing in the sense of hurting people, but in the sense of making them think they should be able to do whatever they want~ if the world keeps conceding defeat and accepting such things, people are just going to keep pushing on boundries, some people of course, will be able to tell when to stop pushing the limits, but in general, man kind isnt all that intuitive, theyll go with what the rest of the world is doing, people need limits~

this isnt a religious matter for me, im a bhuddist ~ and you dont understand why im trying to keep a tradition? im not trying to keep one im just thinking it should be. Humans live to much in the present, only thinking of what they want here and now, and not what the lessons of the past have taught us and what our actions could do to the future, people who want this marriage are pushing on the tempers of millions just because they want to be able to do everything they want, with out just being happy with what they have, if change is to come, it has to come slowly and not forcefully.


and if you don't understand the pride i have in my own thoughts and tradition, then you have a different perspective on life, try and see my perspective, not as the son of one such people, but as someone values almost everything above simple emotion.

. Marriage doesn't have to be made in a church

The easiest. fricken. solution. have a different ceremony, this doesnt stomp on the beliefs of so many, nor force a change that isnt neccisary. yet could still join them in law.

[teenboy9]

So your saying the reason gay marriage should not be allowed is because people need to have limits? That’s like saying; "no one can have ice cream anymore because we need to know our sense of limits." Society is something that has ALWAYS been testing the limits of what it is said people can do. If we kept "limits" there would be no interracial marriages, heck minorities would not have equal rights. If we never tested limits women would not be able to vote, or work out of the home. You are right, when people want to change these limits people get angry, generally because they just do not like change. When women protested for the vote, many were beat up and locked away in jail cells for days, or even weeks on end. Maybe we should apply your reasoning to past events, like why free the slaves, that’s going to make a heck of a lot of people angry, maybe even more angry then gay marriage. Obviously this example is not to the same level, but we cant run our world thinking you should not do something because that might make someone upset. Our world changes over time, ONLY because people test physical, and social limits. If you have a car that can only go 5 miles an hour, its not going to get fixed by the guy in the back seat saying, "don’t improve the car, its fine the way it is, we will all get to the store eventually." Change is not easy, and its NOT going to happen if you move slowly and hope everyone changes their minds. You have to push hard and keep pushing hard, that’s the only way change comes. When you get to the end, and there are enough people to support it, then like many other things will be added to society as the norm. Don’t like it, turn around and just look in a different direction.

[Liquidkid]

you act like you think people need to push and there needs to be change, like ive said maybe 5 times no and your yet to respond to, why not hold a different ceremony, with different customs, instead of pushing on a barrier unneccisarily.

Your making it sound like im saying gays are second class citizens, not true, they should have the same civil rights with us but they have different lifestyles and therfor it would be easier to build new customs to support that lifestyle rather then being completely assimilated like theyre so close to doing.

In short, Limits should be pushed, or shattered entirely, when things must be changed, but if there is an alternate solution, that is preferable.

[teenboy9]

But until they have FULL equal rights, they are not same class citizens. They need to be able to have ALL the legal rights any heterosexual couple would have. The reason they cannot have something different is because many of them have the same beliefs, yet they were born different people. Maybe this is a reason to once again have a new more accepting branch of Christianity?

[Liquidkid]

we are born different.... so why treat everyone exactly the same? i dont want to be treated just like a black white or brown guy, because im not, people are going to make generalisations so prepare to be treated differently then everyone else.

[teenboy9]

Obviously people are going to treated different from each other, but last time I checked if you were black, white or brown you are treated the same when you walk into church.

[boognish]

not neccesarily, there are "black churches" and "white churches" but alot of times every one goes. what i mean by "black church" and "white church" is thwe ppl whole go to that church, if a majority of blacks go to a certain church a white might not be that welcome. and vice versa.

[TheWizard]

Equal rights means equal for EVERYONE. Last time I looked gays only want equal rights. Its unamerican not to give gays the same rights others enjoy.

[kingofpythias]

Hello, to any of you who remember kingofpythias posting on here, i have some bad news. Kingofpythias died about 3 weeks ago of an aneurysm that was declared inoperable. He was gay and gay marriage was a big issue of his on here. my name is kevin, im 18/m/kansas and i was his next door neighbor and the executor of his estate. please contact [email protected] for any condolences. thank you and god bless.

[Liquidkid]

That is sad... but people die.... and well... life goes on~ the fact that he's gay doesnt meen i care less in the slightest, i offer his family my condolences and i hope he has gone to a better place~

[TheWizard]

Why is it the good people die young? It sucks.

[Dante]

I have no problem with gay people, if you want to be together fine, but i believe marriage is a holy and sacred thing.

[darkwolfwithinh]

no, marriage is the greatist way to show that you love someone and to make a bond between two people. what if two people that dont have any set of beliefs or religion got married . nobody would say that they cant get married. who are we to say that they cantshow there love and get married. what if it was the other way around. what if there was a law that said that you could not get married to the person that you loved. you would feel like you were hated. there is only one reson that that people say gays cant marry and that is because of religion and religion has no place in law. not having religion in law has made us free.

[TheWizard]

Its still boils down to giving gay equal rights. It the American thing to do.

[jimmyc]

I just think that gays should have the same rights as homosexuals, but just in a civil union. Yes, we have no right to judge, but churches have an obligation to combat sin. You can't deny that maraige was started to recognise people as being promised to each other, and ready to start a family.

sorry young ones, but regardless of what you've heard in church or on fox news, marriage existed before christianity and judaism. It was not created as a religious practice; couples have been promising themselves to each other before they ever heard of Jesus and God a few thousand years ago.

also, have you not noticed that many people get married without any religious backing? They go to the courhouse, sign the papers, and get married. Sometimes it's because they're in love, sometimes it's because they got pregnant accidentally, sometimes it's so they can get tax breaks - but you don't have to get married in a church, you don't need a preacher to sanctify it, and if you're going to talk about "the sanctity of marriage," did you know that half of all marriages end in divorce?

IF you want to protect marriage as a sacred institution and you wan't to ban something, ban divorce. You shouldn't ban any of it, but it's obviously hypocritical to say that gay marriage is wrong but to allow divorce, don't you think?

Hate that it's me who has to burst your little religious bubbles.

[///James///]

my feeling on gay marriages (i am gay), is that the people making these laws are a bit too old. when they were 20 or so, they would of only knew about 1 or less gay men. They were very un-common back then. now, 1 in 5 men are, i think we need kids to take over the US government.!! But really, as much as i want kerry to win, i would like someone who aggrees with gay marriage and would legalise it. & if possible, make it worldwide!!!!!
Now i've just gone mad

[TheWizard]

It will happen eventually because its the right thing to do. :)

[TheWizard]

Nothing to gey mad about. :)

[boognish]

i think in the laws eyes gays can have a couplating union, but marrige is to far, marrige is spicifically between a man and a woman, no a man and another man bu the wants to be a woman. also gay marriges would have to be up to the curches, even though it is against their religion, let the church deal wit em. so just make it legal to have gay unions and allow the church to decide about the marrige thing.

[Blackness_chic]

I don't agree with you Boognish. It is not the person who is gay/lesbians fault that they are how they are.(im lesbian). they were born like that. that is how god created them. I think that we should have equal rights and i think that we should be able to get married and live like everybody else in this nation that we call a democracy...

[maximan]

i think in the laws eyes gays can have a couplating union, but marrige is to far, marrige is spicifically between a man and a woman, no a man and another man bu the wants to be a woman. also gay marriges would have to be up to the curches, even though it is against their religion, let the church deal wit em. so just make it legal to have gay unions and allow the church to decide about the marrige thing.

Who said it's specifically between a man and a woman? It's not up to the church...marraiges have been around for longer than the "bible" decreed them religious.

[Skittle Flavored]

i think the gay marrige thing is really stupid *considering IM gay, but anyway* gay people are just like u and me....how would u like it if they say...african american people couldnt marry, or canadian people couldnt marry...its the same thing!

[Whisper]

I don't have a problem with gay marrige but I do with adoption. A child should have 1 mom and 1 dad, not 2 dads or 2 moms. Having a male and female role model is extremly important in the developing mind of a child, thats a fact, it's been proven. So I think kids should be kept to man and womam. I dont have a problem with two guys or two girls getting married but I don't think they should be allowed to adopt, for the kids sake.

[tigger]

I am gonna jump right up and say what i think:
Gay marriage is fine but Gays shouldn't be able to adopt, and its wrong, agree 100% with code

[Skittle Flavored]

im thinking of doing it cause i want a child, but i see what u say... and im kinda thinking AGAINST it....so...

[Whisper]

Jeremy Kevin will not get mad at you for this, I've seen that hes been yellin at you about bringing back old posts which is a lil annoying but eveybody whos new to the site did/dose it including me, including Kevin. Kevin actually brought up a post from just barley after the site was formed because he thought it was funny just a few days ago, so he better leave you alone about this!!

I'm sorry if I'm soundin like an ass but I've had a really, really horrible day hell week and this shit aint helpin!

Oh and I like your opinion on gay marrige Jeremy. :)

[me]

go codery!

[boognish]

i think i brought bak the thread? what thread did kev bring bak? sorry for being off topic...gay marrige should not be legal, its up to the churches, gay unions should.

[me]

here here! 0clinks beer bottle with boognish0

[TheWizard]

I just can't see any reason not to allow gay marrige.

[me]

i think he is hetero 0-o

[TheWizard]

josh can i ask u ur sexuality?

I'm blue.

[Kiros]

:lol: I'm straight and I dont REALLY go for gay marriage b/c there should be a mom and a dad in a parent hood (which is the main goal of living)

[advent_child]

but what about the fact that marriage is a christian unuion? i dont really give a damn who marries who, but i think psycologically a gay couple having a kid would screw up the kid sooooooo bad

[maximan]

Marriage was around long before christianity. Christians have no right of claimings it's theirs.

Plus marriage isnt religious, its a way to declare your love for someone. So are gay people not allowed to love each other? :roll: