Abortion (Right or Wrong?) [Archive]

Reality

July 31st, 2009, 02:00 PM

I know that VT has had this debate numerous times, however, it hasn't really had one in a couple of months (since April I think), so I want to restart this classic topic up again.

Is abortion right or wrong?

Personally, I'm very against it, and I'm against abortion for most cases except if the mothers life is at risk. I do not believe that some slut who decides to have an unprotected one-night stand with some random stud, and then be like "o lol. its k. i'll just abort it" when she finds out she's pregnant. She should accept responsibility for her actions, and not take the easy way out on things.

I don't expect her to have to bring up the baby if she doesn't want to, however this is why there's a thing called adoption. The baby can be given to a person or couple that can't have children themselves, so they will give it a loving upbringing. Abortion is a slap in the face to those who can't have children due to fertility problems, IMO.

Controversially, I also believe that raped women shouldn't abort their children. Yes, the child was completely unplanned, and having to endure nine months of pregnancy and give birth to a rapists baby is not a nice thought, but the matter of the fact is that some women do, and for this I think they're brave, in comparison, a woman who is raped who just aborts her child at first chance is cowardly in comparison. "The child will remind a rape victim of her rapist" - Again, I refer to adoption. Nobody is saying she has to bring the child up herself.

I do, however, support the use of the Emergency Contraception Pill in the case of rape, because like the condom, this just prevents pregnancy, therefore nothing is killed.

Sums up most of my thoughts on it for now. Note that I'm not religious at all (I'm agnostic) and please keep Christianity or any other religion out of this.

changed

July 31st, 2009, 02:05 PM

i think its wrong , taking an innocent life because they were too stupid to care if they got pregnant or not just sickens me.

Death

July 31st, 2009, 02:15 PM

I believe that taking the attitude of 'Lets do it witout protection just for fun! It doesn't matter if I get pregnant, I'll just abort the bugger.' is awful, however, if you are pregnant (even if you shouldn't have been) and you really cannot be commited to raising the child, you should have it aborted instead of giving it a miserable and abused life. Even if you view abortion as being wrong, it would be the lesser of 2 evils (not meant in a religious sense). Of course, it would be sensible to not have unprotected sex in the first place.

Reality

July 31st, 2009, 02:18 PM

however, if you are pregnant (even if you shouldn't have been) and you really cannot be commited to raising the child, you should have it aborted instead of giving it a miserable and abused life.
One word: Adoption

Bougainvillea

July 31st, 2009, 02:22 PM

I think it's right in certain cases. Like if the mother's in danger, or if you're a 13 year old girl who was raped. But if you were just stupid and couldn't keep your legs closed, adoption.

INFERNO

July 31st, 2009, 02:23 PM

I support abortion in almost all cases. The cases where I don't is when the female comes in for her 100th abortion. So aside from using it endlessly, I do support it, both in the cases of rape, cases where the pregnancy may harm/kill the parent and/or the kid or cases where the parents decide they don't want it. If the parents don't want it, then ideally they could give it up for adoption but if they don't want to go that route, I still support abortion.

Death

July 31st, 2009, 02:24 PM

One word: Adoption

Well, I suppose you could do that but then he wouldn't be raised with his/her family which wouldn't be as nice. I think that using a condom or not having sex at all is no different to an abortion; you are preventing birth from taking place either way. Besides, you may not always be able to get an adopter.

Bougainvillea

July 31st, 2009, 02:27 PM

ackmedsgirl666

July 31st, 2009, 02:29 PM

i do not believe in abortion no matter the circumstances
whether the mother is a victim of rape it doesn't matter
abortion is a very hard thing for mother and of course the child who will not get the chance to live. however im 16 and as much as i do not believe in abortion i would of course have to either abort or give up my child to children's aid society as numerous of their kids have gotten pregnant and had to abort or give up the care of their child
my 16 yr ols ex/ foster sister is now 9 months pregnant and when that baby is born next week she will have to give it up to childrens aid :(

Reality

July 31st, 2009, 02:32 PM

Well, I suppose you could do that but then he wouldn't be raised with his/her family which wouldn't be as nice. I think that using a condom or not having sex at all is no different to an abortion; you are preventing birth from taking place either way. Besides, you may not always be able to get an adopter.
There are actually many couples that suffer from infertility problems (no eggs in the woman, or the man is sterile in that he cannot produce sperm) and many of them are on lists for adoptions and such.

Being raised with your biological parent/s maybe the norm, however it is not horrible to be adopted, I'd much rather a woman put her child up for adoption than abort it or give it a miserable life at home because she didn't want it.

And prevention and termination are two different things. A condom/ECP prevents a birth, but once the sperm fertilizes the egg, a fetus begins to grow inside. It's a two-part equation. However, you are preventing a birth just by not having sex, in fact we're preventing births every day, so it's kind of irrelevant to compare it to abortion.

The Batman

July 31st, 2009, 02:43 PM

Bougainvillea

July 31st, 2009, 02:50 PM

Abortion is a private matter, what we decide to with our bodies is our decision. You can not force someone to give birth to a baby they don't want especially if they have to go through 9 months of labor.

Aha!
I throw my first statement away and second this.
It's very true to me.
Not really anyone else's business.

sebbie

July 31st, 2009, 03:10 PM

Abortion is a subject I avoid due to a recent experience, a close friend of mine ended up pregnant. She found out too late to use other methods of contraception abortion would be the only option.

I used to think that it is fine to be pro choice and abort. However she then asked me what she should do. Now I really did not know what to say, I did not want to be responsible for her aborting or keeping it.

Also http://www.demotivateus.com/posters/abortion-it-really-brings-out-the-kid-in-you-demotivational-poster.jpg
Demotivationals
(http://www.demotivateus.com)

Never_Forget

July 31st, 2009, 03:27 PM

It depends on the circumstances. If a woman is raped, then it's fine to have an abortion. But as other people have said, if she's like "ohai no condoms I'll just get an abortion" then it's wrong and cruel.

Overall, it comes down to whether if it's the woman's fault. If her drink was spiked or something, or she was raped, or blackmailed, then it's ok. If it's from lack of responsibility then no, it's not ok unless the child would be brought up in a bad environment, as others have said.

Reality

July 31st, 2009, 03:28 PM

Abortion is a private matter, what we decide to with our bodies is our decision. You can not force someone to give birth to a baby they don't want especially if they have to go through 9 months of labor.
That maybe so, but it doesn't take away the fact that such decision may be right or wrong.

Spin

July 31st, 2009, 03:28 PM

Whisper

July 31st, 2009, 03:31 PM

http://www.filehurricane.com/viewerthumbnails/131200885815AM_image004.jpg
that lil baby sums me up pretty well
i'm pro choice

Reality

July 31st, 2009, 03:33 PM

It doesn't matter if we think it's right or wrong. Really, it's neither. What the question should be is "Is telling a woman what to do with her own body? right or wrong". And well, I would say that is completely wrong. If a woman doesn't want to carry a baby for 9 months than she shouldn't have to. It's cruel to make her.
I understand that, but the fact she had sex (in many cases, willingly and without protection) she should bear responsibility for her actions, an unborn fetus may not be 100% a child, but it is a life, and it is growing and functioning.. in a few months it will be a BABY, which can grow up to be a healthy human being.

Do you know how some abortions are done? Especially the ones done in later stages of a womans pregnancy when the organs and all the prime features are created?

I'm no conservative nor religious-being, but I think most abortion cases are sick.

JackOfClubs

July 31st, 2009, 03:36 PM

I'm pro-choice. I think the woman should have the choice what to do with her body. I wouldn't have an abortion, well if I was a woman anyway.

The Batman

July 31st, 2009, 03:37 PM

Really though I think abortion is sick but still i'm not going to let that be the reason i'm against it. Do whatever the hell you want just don't involve me is my motto.

Bougainvillea

July 31st, 2009, 03:39 PM

Well, Chris.
What you consider "wrong" or "sick", may be considered "right" to others,
It's an opinion based on people's beliefs and moral values.

Reality

July 31st, 2009, 03:41 PM

Well, Chris.
What you consider "wrong" or "sick", may be considered "right" to others,
It's an opinion based on people's beliefs and moral values.
Indeed, Chris. That's why we're debating this. In fact, this would be boring if you all just agreed with me.

Lol, holy fuck, I seem to have repeated someone by saying that.

Bougainvillea

July 31st, 2009, 03:44 PM

Carole!

Yeah.
But I think it's a last resort option.
I'm more or less siding with Thomas.

Reality

July 31st, 2009, 03:49 PM

Carole!

Yeah.
But I think it's a last resort option.
I'm more or less siding with Thomas.
lol. It took me a minute to figure where I was getting that from.

And yeah, I appreciate opposite opinions. I understand, like in the cases of rape, it's difficult, but I find it hard to agree with.

But there's no excuse at all for a woman who disregarded everything else, i.e. didn't use protection, got irresponsibly drunk to have an abortion.

Life isn't all about the "easy way out", sometimes, you have to accept responsibility for your own actions for the benefit of others.

If a man were to get drunk and drive his car, and then the Police caught him, he can't just be like "well it's my car I can do what I like with it", because while driving that car he was in the position to do plenty of damage of others, and it'd be extremely selfish. Extreme metaphor I know, but that's my point.

Spin

July 31st, 2009, 03:52 PM

I understand that, but the fact she had sex (in many cases, willingly and without protection) she should bear responsibility for her actions, an unborn fetus may not be 100% a child, but it is a life, and it is growing and functioning.. in a few months it will be a BABY, which can grow up to be a healthy human being.

Do you know how some abortions are done? Especially the ones done in later stages of a womans pregnancy when the organs and all the prime features are created?

I'm no conservative nor religious-being, but I think most abortion cases are sick.

Yes, that does happen but in a lot of cases people DO wear protection and use birth control and they still get pregnant. Honestly, who are we to tell someone what they should bear responsibility for? Unless you're the most responsible person in the world, saying a woman should bear responsibly for a mistake just seems hypocritical. And yes, there's always adoption, and that's all good but more than half the kids in the system stay in the system until they're old enough to go out on their own. Putting a kid in foster care is really no better.

Most abortions happen before 12 weeks. That's when the baby is a fetus. A fetus can't even register it's own feelings or existance. If it's unwanted it's pretty much a parasite to the woman. If a woman doesn't want something to feed off of her for 9 months only to give it away than she shouldn't have to.

sebbie

July 31st, 2009, 03:52 PM

An interesting point of discussion:

Most of this thread has been about whether we have pro choice, but suppose there was legislation making abortion illegal under all circumstances?

This little baby sums up what I mean:

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/1453/babyprop.jpg

^
LOL see what I did here :P , Ps. MS Paint > Photoshop for comedy :cool:

Reality

July 31st, 2009, 03:55 PM

Yes, that does happen but in a lot of cases people DO wear protection and use birth control and they still get pregnant. Honestly, who are we to tell someone what they should bear responsibility for?
Tell me who said sex is ever a 100% safe and trouble-free activity, and that both partners shouldn't bear any responsibility for the after-math, i.e. pregnancy and STD's.

Nobody HAS to have sex (unless they were raped).

Bougainvillea

July 31st, 2009, 04:01 PM

Exactly!
It's not always something we can prevent.
Life sure can bite you in the ass.

Either way, I'm still pro choice.
But in the end, it's not my decision.

Spin

July 31st, 2009, 04:05 PM

Tell me who said sex is ever a 100% safe and trouble-free activity, and that both partners shouldn't bear any responsibility for the after-math, i.e. pregnancy and STD's.

Nobody HAS to have sex (unless they were raped).

I know no one has ever said that, but to say that most people who gets pregnant and abort are dumbasses who forgot a condom is a big generalization.

You're right, no one has to have sex, but people are still going to. You seem to think that even if they woman was raped that she should still go through with the pregnancy, which is pretty ridiculous. If you don't like abortion then don't get one, and if you're a boy, don't become one of the doctors who performs the procedure, very simple.

Most of this thread has been about whether we have pro choice, but suppose there was legislation making abortion illegal under all circumstances?That wouldn't happen.

thedudeman

July 31st, 2009, 04:48 PM

One word: Adoption

how is adoption better then having a unwanted baby? how?
have you ever been in an adoption center, its hell, theres not enough to eat, its dirty, and unloving, and what makes you think all these kids eventually get adopted? a lot dont, a lot are raised in these places and become just as messed up because the adoption center doesn't want them, there just another thing in the house, dont ever say adoption is better because adoption is a lot of the times worse then abortion, stop the kids pain and don't leave him to a life of misery no love and poverty

although i do agree its wrong to take another persons life especially if its your own dumbass fault, i still think its the lesser of two evils to abort it, and i hate how men make these decisions as if they know exactly what a womens going through, i have no idea what a pregnant women is feeling, why should i decide on what they do with there body?

its like saying, i know your addicted but i dont know what your going through, in fact i will never know, but let me make all the decisions for you

thedudeman

July 31st, 2009, 04:52 PM

Tell me who said sex is ever a 100% safe and trouble-free activity, and that both partners shouldn't bear any responsibility for the after-math, i.e. pregnancy and STD's.

Nobody HAS to have sex (unless they were raped).

this is stupid and ignorant
people will never stop having sex, no matter what, yes personal responsibility is a factor, but what you seem to forget is people aren't perfect and make stupid decisions, your also saying that people should never have sex, what the hell is that? people will always have sex, its a wonderful thing, they use protection, and i think then they should be given the rights to abortion by all means if protection is being used, there trying to do the right thing, the condoms breaks and accidental pregnancy, why should they suffer because a piece of plastic broke? you go get a girl pregnant and come back here and tell me you still think the same way

thedudeman

July 31st, 2009, 04:54 PM

also do you realize what taking away abortion would do? our world is already over populated as it is and if we take away safe legal abortions people will just go to backdoor abortions and risk disease, we need a safe option because abortion will never go away, legal or not

Reality

July 31st, 2009, 04:59 PM

I know no one has ever said that, but to say that most people who gets pregnant and abort are dumbasses who forgot a condom is a big generalization.
Did I really? Show me where? I'm interested to see where I did.

You're right, no one has to have sex, but people are still going to. You seem to think that even if they woman was raped that she should still go through with the pregnancy, which is pretty ridiculous. If you don't like abortion then don't get one, and if you're a boy, don't become one of the doctors who performs the procedure, very simple.

That wouldn't happen.
So just because many people disagree with me, I can't be Pro-Life?

how is adoption better then having a unwanted baby? how?
have you ever been in an adoption center, its hell, theres not enough to eat, its dirty, and unloving, and what makes you think all these kids eventually get adopted? a lot dont, a lot are raised in these places and become just as messed up because the adoption center doesn't want them, there just another thing in the house, dont ever say adoption is better because adoption is a lot of the times worse then abortion, stop the kids pain and don't leave him to a life of misery no love and poverty
So these kids should be denied life, simply they may have a bad life? What about all the people who were adopted into loving families?

this is stupid and ignorant
people will never stop having sex, no matter what, yes personal responsibility is a factor, but what you seem to forget is people aren't perfect and make stupid decisions, your also saying that people should never have sex, what the hell is that? people will always have sex, its a wonderful thing, they use protection, and i think then they should be given the rights to abortion by all means if protection is being used, there trying to do the right thing, the condoms breaks and accidental pregnancy, why should they suffer because a piece of plastic broke? you go get a girl pregnant and come back here and tell me you still think the same way
Woah woah woah. First of all. Why is this turning into a flame war? I'm against abortion, I've outlined all my reasons why, and mostly debated this with everyone. I could easily say that you're a dumbass that doesn't notice the 'Edit' option for triple-posting, but why would I do that? :rolleyes:

sebbie

July 31st, 2009, 05:15 PM

That wouldn't happen.

Don't be so quick to shoot what I said down :rolleyes:

There are some countries in the world where abortion is totally outlawed! Whilst there may not be that many of them, there is sure enough of them to discuss the point and affects of it !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_law

marty

July 31st, 2009, 05:56 PM

i think that everyone should get abortioned.

Church

July 31st, 2009, 06:05 PM

I think parents can abort if they want, but if the baby can live without being inside the mother then you shouldn't be able to abort.

Bougainvillea

July 31st, 2009, 06:13 PM

"how is adoption better then having a unwanted baby? how?
have you ever been in an adoption center, its hell, theres not enough to eat, its dirty, and unloving, and what makes you think all these kids eventually get adopted? a lot dont, a lot are raised in these places and become just as messed up because the adoption center doesn't want them, there just another thing in the house, dont ever say adoption is better because adoption is a lot of the times worse then abortion, stop the kids pain and don't leave him to a life of misery no love and poverty"

I think you've seen "Annie" way too many times.
They have yearly evaluations in those places to make sure those children are healthy.
I think adoption is better because you're giving them a chance to live. Not taking it away.
And he can say that because that's his statement in this debate.

Reality

July 31st, 2009, 07:40 PM

I think you've seen "Annie" way too many times.
They have yearly evaluations in those places to make sure those children are healthy.
I think adoption is better because you're giving them a chance to live. Not taking it away.
And he can say that because that's his statement in this debate.
Hahahaha.
But yeah, my point exactly, really. I don't know why people get this idea that adoption is all doom and gloom, that even abortion is "better" - that's an insult to families that lovingly adopted children.

Some people get this idea that everyone who's adopted or lived in a carehome grows up to be some depressed psychopath, that either makes a life or crime of commits suicide. That's not true at all. That's a mere stereotype.

i think that everyone should get abortioned.
Lets start with aborting you, then. :)

Bougainvillea

July 31st, 2009, 09:44 PM

Haha!
That's fucked up, Chris.

Exactly.
I've been to many orphanages. They ensure the well being of the children.

Adoption would be my first choice, rather than abortion.

Spin

July 31st, 2009, 11:30 PM

Did I really? Show me where? I'm interested to see where I did.

"but the fact she had sex (in many cases, willingly and without protection) she should bear responsibility for her actions."

Maybe my wording was a little strong, but with that statement above, it implies that you think most cases of abortion are because of being irresponsible.

So just because many people disagree with me, I can't be Pro-Life?

No. Go ahead. Be pro-life. But don't say other people shouldn't be able to get an abortion because other people don't feel the same as you. Actually, like you said many people don't feel the same as you. That should say something.

Don't be so quick to shoot what I said down

There are some countries in the world where abortion is totally outlawed! Whilst there may not be that many of them, there is sure enough of them to discuss the point and affects of it !

It's completely outlawed in only 3 countries. I doubt anymore countries will follow. I'm not at all worried about a pro-life epidemic happening anytime soon.

wisse2012

August 1st, 2009, 01:02 AM

my personal opinion is that they are ok. i mean just think if a girl gets raped sure no prob but also if she got preg. but she cant afford to keep this child well y bring it into this worlf so it can suffer as an orphan all its life...no i dont think it to make a kid suffer so just keep him outta this heartless and crew world

Bougainvillea

August 1st, 2009, 01:04 AM

Sapphire

August 1st, 2009, 03:41 AM

I view it as a last resort - all the options should be thoroughly considered before going in for an abortion.
But, I do not condone abortions being carried out 24 weeks or later into the pregnancy. At this point the baby is viable and can survive (with intense medical care) outside of the womb.
also do you realize what taking away abortion would do? our world is already over populated as it is and if we take away safe legal abortions people will just go to backdoor abortions and risk disease, we need a safe option because abortion will never go away, legal or notQFT.

Sage

August 1st, 2009, 03:45 AM

That's why you adopt.
Not everything is cruel about this world.
Give the baby a chance to experience life. :)

You know what I find cruel? Forcing a woman to carry a baby for nine terrible months of her life, making her give birth to it, and then giving it away to adoption with the thought branded in her mind for the rest of her life that somewhere, out there, there's a child that belongs to her.

broken.figurine

August 1st, 2009, 05:13 AM

I don't want to say abortion is either right or wrong. I don't think it's quite as black and white as that. There's a lot of gray area with topics like this.

I don't like abortion, and I support other means above all else. But I am pro-choice.

There are so many circumstances I don't think we can even imagine. I cannot fathom being a woman who hears her baby has some terrible disease or defect that surely won't let the baby live outside of the womb. I don't believe in making that woman carry the baby to term knowing it will never live. And yes, that is still considered an abortion.

Or being the woman the finds out that continuing the pregnancy will seriously risk her life. In my opinion, that's a decision that needs to made between her, her partner, and family. Because continuing the pregnancy knowing it will kill her (and probably the baby at that point) without the support of her partner and family is wrong to me. They'd be the ones left caring for the baby and grieving the loss of her.

I also can't see forcing a woman who has been raped to continue the pregnancy, spend nine months watching her body grow, change, and in a sense continue to be violated by her rapist, and then still have to give birth to the child and either raise it or give it away. People argue that abortion causes depression and other mental problems, but giving a child up for adoption also causes much of the same mental anguish. Then multiply that because she was forced to continue a pregnancy that came of rape.

Not to mention all the other factors, including pressure from those around her. Sadly, a lot of women are coerced into abortions by family and partners. It's a tough, emotional time for women (especially unplanned), so lack of support can be devastating.

And saying it's just girls who didn't care to bother with condoms or birth control is just a nasty over-generalization. Statistics show that more than one in three women will have had an abortion by age 45, and over half of them were using some sort of birth control when they got pregnant. So it's not always carelessness but simple failure of what she thought was protecting her. It happens.

It's not right or wrong. I doubt anybody would say they're truly pro-abortion like, "yeah, let's all go get pregnant and abort babies." It's not a choice for me, but that doesn't mean it's wrong for someone else.

And I guess it depends on your definition of life. By some religious codes, life begins at conception (which would also mean that ECP and other contraceptives that don't necessarily prevent ovulation, and thus conception, but instead implantation are also wrong). But then, scientifically speaking, a fetus is a parasite, and no one would object to "killing" a tapeworm by removing it. And scientifically, there is no consensus on when "life" begins.

It's just not my place to tell another woman what to do with her life and her body. Pregnancy is a MAJOR experience, and considered a major medical condition. Not something I believe I have the right to force a woman to endure against her will.

Dreaming Cannibal

August 1st, 2009, 05:18 AM

I'm against abortion because a woman decides to have sex with no protection. But it can also be an option for other cases.
a woman who is raped who just aborts her child at first chance is cowardly in comparison

That maybe be truth and yet it's also too generalized to be completely true. It doesn't necessarily has to be cowardly. Not everyone is the same, no one has the same mental strength to go over 8-9 months of a deforming and scaring experience cause a fucker raped you. It might sound out of the ordinary description of pregnancy but if you don't desire a baby and happen to be raped and get pregnant you will see that pregnancy as a humiliation, a reminder of one bad day. I think that if a woman is raped and get's pregnant she should have the option of keeping, putting up for adoption or aborting that child as it is her body and she should have control of it.
I really think there should be a law that prohibited woman to abort without a good reason. just because you made a mistake its not a good enough reason.

broken.figurine

August 1st, 2009, 05:26 AM

I really think there should be a law that prohibited woman to abort without a good reason. just because you made a mistake its not a good enough reason.

What would make a "good reason" though. What I may consider a good reason, you may not or vice versa.

Another point to my long ramble above: What about the implications of forcing a woman to carry an unwanted pregnancy? That woman would probably be more like to not receive proper prenatal care, not take prenatal vitamins, not eat or sleep right, to take hot baths or use hot tubs, to use potentially harmful medication, to smoke, drink, or use drugs, or to do any of the numerous things that could be harmful to a developing fetus.

So what would be the next step in ensuring that all developing fetuses were truly taken care of and given a real chance at a good life? Regulating and making laws about what a woman could or could not do with her body when pregnant? Mandating prenatal care and such? Seems like a slippery slope to me.

ErykaInspire.

August 1st, 2009, 06:43 AM

Reality

August 1st, 2009, 07:46 AM

"but the fact she had sex (in many cases, willingly and without protection) she should bear responsibility for her actions."

Maybe my wording was a little strong, but with that statement above, it implies that you think most cases of abortion are because of being irresponsible.
Because it's actually quite true.

No. Go ahead. Be pro-life. But don't say other people shouldn't be able to get an abortion because other people don't feel the same as you. Actually, like you said many people don't feel the same as you. That should say something.
I think you're taking me far too personally, here. The whole point in a debate is to battle opposing ideas. But you're sitting there, without debunking one thing I said by being all "well many people don't feel like you".

And by the way, many people also feel the same way as me, so I don't exactly know why you said that either.

That's why you adopt.
Not everything is cruel about this world.
Give the baby a chance to experience life. :)

Abortion is definitely wrong.
Even if you can't afford it, give it up for adoption.
EVERY child deserves a chance at life, no matter what.
My little brother died 3weeks after he was born because a nurse put him on the wrong supporting oxygen. How fair is that?
Babies don't have a chance to fight for themselves, they need everyone else to do it for them, so give them a chance.
Even if the odds of survival are .01. There's still a percentange, and there's still hope.

Abortion is murder.
QFT both of you. =D

Bougainvillea

August 1st, 2009, 10:40 AM

Reality

August 1st, 2009, 11:29 AM

You know what I find cruel? Forcing a woman to carry a baby for nine terrible months of her life, making her give birth to it, and then giving it away to adoption with the thought branded in her mind for the rest of her life that somewhere, out there, there's a child that belongs to her.
So a woman/couple who get an abortion is always 100% guilt-free then? :rolleyes:
I suggest you listen clearly to this song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qj3nWy7HMs) if you think couples that abort are guilt-free.

Nine months of pain may not be a nice thing, but many women, even rape victims do go through with this, and some even keep and love their child, that in my eyes is brave.

The fact the "child may remind a rape victim of her being raped" is nothing but a selfish excuse. It's not the child's fault that she was raped. If life is started, then it shouldn't be taken away.

Bougainvillea

August 1st, 2009, 11:32 AM

So a woman/couple who get an abortion is always 100% guilt-free then? :rolleyes:
I suggest you listen clearly to this song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qj3nWy7HMs) if you think couples that abort are guilt-free.

Nine months of pain may not be a nice thing, but many women, even rape victims do go through with this, and some even keep and love their child, that in my eyes is brave.

The fact the "child may remind a rape victim of her being raped" is nothing but a selfish excuse. It's not the child's fault that she was raped. If life is started, then it shouldn't be taken away.

Nice!
That's what I was trying to say.
It'd be unfair to the child.

I think you're the new Carole, Chris. :)

Reality

August 1st, 2009, 11:38 AM

Nice!
That's what I was trying to say.
It'd be unfair to the child.

I think you're the new Carole, Chris. :)
Haha, Chris. That was random. But of course.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:?

nick

August 1st, 2009, 12:48 PM

I am totally against abortion in all but the most extreme circumstances. I dont believe it is fair to ask any rape victim to endure an unwanted pregnancy, and if the mother's life is in danger or the baby has no hope of survival then those are genuine exceptions.

Abortion is a private matter, what we decide to with our bodies is our decision. You can not force someone to give birth to a baby they don't want especially if they have to go through 9 months of labor.

Its not a private matter, its a matter for society to decide. I live in a society that seems to have decided that abortion is effectively just the same as contraception. I disagree.

I'm pro choice. The choice to keep your legs together or use contraception.

It doesn't matter if we think it's right or wrong. Really, it's neither. What the question should be is "Is telling a woman what to do with her own body? right or wrong". And well, I would say that is completely wrong. If a woman doesn't want to carry a baby for 9 months than she shouldn't have to. It's cruel to make her.

Then she should have thought of that first. I believe killing is wrong and that society has as much right to tell women that killing their unborn baby is wrong as it has to tell a murderer that killing is wrong. Perhaps we should let murderers kill as many people as they like because who are we to interfere with their choice?

Spin

August 1st, 2009, 04:45 PM

Oh god people. Please stop saying BS like it's murder.

Lets look at the dictionary definition of murder, shall we?

Murder: the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought

Well, guess what everbody? A fetus is NOT a person. In no way shape or form is a fetus a person. Most abortions happen when the thing is fetus. It is not a baby. It does not feel or think anything. It does not have a conscious at all. It doesn't even know of it's existence. And yes it will eventually turn into a baby but when abortions take place it is NOT a baby.

Also do some of you realize that if abortion is illegal people will find ways to still do it. Whether it's with a rusty coat hanger or falling down a flight of stairs. Those ways make it incredibly unsafe for the woman.

nick

August 1st, 2009, 04:50 PM

Oh god people. Please stop saying BS like it's murder.
....
Most abortions happen when the thing is fetus. It is not a baby.
Well you're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine. To me it is exactly like murder.

Then you go on to argue about semantics. When is a baby a baby and not a feotus? I don't really care for that, its not about semantics, its about morals. Its about deliberately ending a life for another persons convenience.

Sage

August 1st, 2009, 05:04 PM

Then you go on to argue about semantics. When is a baby a baby and not a feotus?

Since FOREVER.

It's scientific fact that a fetus is incapable of feeling or thinking and lacks the sentience that even makes it aware of its own existence. You don't want to argue semantics because you know this is all about semantics. Of course you can call it murder when you say there's no difference between a baby and a fetus.

And don't tell me that the lack of sentience isn't important, and that 'it's still the ending of a life'. A fetus has no more sentience than a worm or a fly. Why do we tolerate killing worms and flies and not larger animals?

Because they are sentient.

I am sick and tired of the pro-life side of this debate taking the moral high ground. It's arrogant and shows poor debating skills. Argue with facts and don't post a sob-story to build your argument on.

Spin

August 1st, 2009, 05:07 PM

Well you're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine. To me it is exactly like murder.

Then you go on to argue about semantics. When is a baby a baby and not a feotus? I don't really care for that, its not about semantics, its about morals. Its about deliberately ending a life for another persons convenience.

No it's not about opinion, it's fact. A fetus is biologically not a person therefore abortion is not murder, or most abortions that is.

Deliberately ending a life, eh? When you scratch your arm you're deliberately killing the cells on your arm to relieve yourself of an itch aka for your convenience. I'm sure you've killed some type of bug before,stepped on a plant, etc. So what exactly is the difference between abortion and all those things I mentioned? Nothing really.

Reality

August 1st, 2009, 05:11 PM

No it's not about opinion, it's fact. A fetus is biologically not a person therefore abortion is not murder, or most abortions that is.

Deliberately ending a life, eh? When you scratch your arm you're deliberately killing the cells on your arm to relieve yourself of an itch aka for your convenience. I'm sure you've killed some type of bug before,stepped on a plant, etc. So what exactly is the difference between abortion and all those things I mentioned? Nothing really.
Lol I knew someone would get into the baby-or-fetus semantics.

Spin, some people consider a fetus a person, which it is, it's a "developing person". I'm one of those people.

And now you're being ridiculous. A bug, cell, plant, etc. are not people (either, in your case) are they? What good does bringing that do for your argument?

lamboman43

August 1st, 2009, 05:12 PM

SInce I am too lazy to explain why, I am just going to say I am pro-choice and think the woman should be able to do what she wants.

nick

August 1st, 2009, 05:13 PM

It's arrogant and shows poor debating skills. Argue with facts and don't post a sob-story to build your argument on.
In the UK we would say at this point, Pot, Kettle, Black

Reality

August 1st, 2009, 05:15 PM

I am sick and tired of the pro-life side of this debate taking the moral high ground. It's arrogant and shows poor debating skills. Argue with facts and don't post a sob-story to build your argument on.
HYPOCRITE.
Says the one that thinks it's so "cruel to force women to go through nine months of unwanted pregnancy". Yep, like that ain't no sob-story. :rolleyes:

Sage

August 1st, 2009, 05:41 PM

HYPOCRITE.
Says the one that thinks it's so "cruel to force women to go through nine months of unwanted pregnancy". Yep, like that ain't no sob-story. :rolleyes:

Someone claimed it was cruel to not let a child experience life and I merely pointed out the flaw in the reasoning in that you can claim it's cruel either way.

And for the sake of debate, I might also add it's also very poor to selectively quote people and make no mention of other points they raise that you have no argument against. You jumped on me, and sure, I probably deserved that, but you're not addressing the other points I made.

mosaic.

August 1st, 2009, 05:42 PM

Personally, I am pro-abortion. I believe that forcing a woman to have an unwanted baby will breed a bad relationship, childhood, and miserable life to another human being.

The ability of a woman to have control of her body is critical to civil rights. Take away her reproductive choice and you step onto a slippery slope. If the government can force a woman to continue a pregnancy, what about forcing a woman to use contraception or undergo sterilization?

LismLFC

August 1st, 2009, 06:51 PM

i think its wrong , taking an innocent life because they were too stupid to care if they got pregnant or not just sickens me.

Yeah but, if the mother doesn't care, wouldn't that be unfair on the child? having to grow up with a mother that doesn't care?

Really though I think abortion is sick but still i'm not going to let that be the reason i'm against it. Do whatever the hell you want just don't involve me is my motto.

LMAO Awesome motto ;D

ManyPearTree

August 1st, 2009, 07:11 PM

A baby is not alive untill it takes it's first real breath. Therefore it's not considered murder. The baby does not feel it.

Reality

August 1st, 2009, 07:17 PM

A baby is not alive untill it takes it's first real breath. Therefore it's not considered murder. The baby does not feel it.
A fetus has been proven to be able feel and react to pain after a certain amount of weeks (I forget which) in pregnancy, actually.

Sage

August 1st, 2009, 07:44 PM

A fetus has been proven to be able feel and react to pain after a certain amount of weeks (I forget which) in pregnancy, actually.

That's very late into the pregnancy. Most on the pro-choice side don't support abortion at the stage where the fetus is capable of surviving outside its mother's womb.

mrmcdonaldduck

August 1st, 2009, 08:52 PM

i think that if the baby willl be born into an unloving family it should be, but in all other cases, HELL NO

Sapphire

August 2nd, 2009, 02:54 AM

Abortion is definitely wrong.
Even if you can't afford it, give it up for adoption.
EVERY child deserves a chance at life, no matter what.
My little brother died 3weeks after he was born because a nurse put him on the wrong supporting oxygen. How fair is that?
Babies don't have a chance to fight for themselves, they need everyone else to do it for them, so give them a chance.
Even if the odds of survival are .01. There's still a percentange, and there's still hope.

Abortion is murder.
The most premature baby to survive was born at 22 weeks. But this is incredibly rare. The youngest preemie to have a decent chance to survive is one born 24 weeks into the pregnancy. This is the point called viability and here in the UK it is illegal to abort a pregnancy after reaching 24 weeks into the pregnancy.
Up until that point, the fetus isn't technically a live human being. It is a fetus.
So if a fetus can't feel pain and can't survive even with the best medical care, how is aborting it murder?
Well you're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine. To me it is exactly like murder.I put that question to you as well: if a fetus can't feel pain and can't survive even with the best medical care, how is aborting it murder?

Then you go on to argue about semantics. When is a baby a baby and not a feotus? I don't really care for that, its not about semantics, its about morals. Its about deliberately ending a life for another persons convenience.A fetus becomes a baby at about 24 weeks into the pregnancy when it becomes viable. http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/314/7074/0/c

Bougainvillea

August 2nd, 2009, 02:59 AM

I agree with Carole on this.

But. like I've said before, it's the mother's choice. From a medical stand point. They'll always save the mother. Because she can always "have another one". Abortion is unfair to some and completely reasonable to others. It depends on people's beliefs and moral values.

Spin

August 2nd, 2009, 03:13 AM

Lol I knew someone would get into the baby-or-fetus semantics. That's because it's an important point in this argument. But like most pro-life supporters, you brush it off as if it's nothing.

Spin, some people consider a fetus a person, which it is, it's a "developing person". I'm one of those people. Those people are wrong. It may be a potential baby but when an abortion takes place it is NOT a baby.

And now you're being ridiculous. A bug, cell, plant, etc. are not people (either, in your case) are they? What good does bringing that do for your argument? First of all, I never said I had a problem killing a bug or a cell. You should since you think a fetus's well being is more important than the well being of a full-functioning human. And the good thing about bringing this into my argument is it shows how hypocritical pro-life supporters are.

broken.figurine

August 2nd, 2009, 05:01 AM

A fetus has been proven to be able feel and react to pain after a certain amount of weeks (I forget which) in pregnancy, actually.

The latest medical research says a fetus does not have the neural connections and pathways to feel pain until at least 28 weeks gestation, or about 7 months into the pregnancy. Check out the Journal of American Medicine (a totally neutral, not prolife or prochoice medical source) for more info.

That's long after the 12 weeks gestation that 90% of abortion occur by. Again, to verify, check out the Alan Guttmacher Institute.

Dreaming Cannibal

August 2nd, 2009, 08:17 PM

What would make a "good reason" though. What I may consider a good reason, you may not or vice versa.

The only two good enough reasons that i find for aborting a child, is if a woman becomes pregnant after being raped, or if the baby or the mother are bounded to have medical complications later on in the pregnancy.

ylllek nivyer

August 2nd, 2009, 08:33 PM

in my opinion. abortion is wrong 99.999999% of the time. only when the mother is in danger and the baby is having medical complications as well is the only exception. and even then, for me, it is sad. very sad. even in cases where people are raped, i believe everything happens for a reason. you don't know who that baby is gonna grow up and be, and it is still part of you. and i don't believe it is the mothers decision, because its the baby's life there taking, not there own. to me, it's no different than some ones mother trying to kill them after they're born. the only rape case where i would agree with it, is if it was like some weird creepy father daughter thing. that's something no kid would wanna grow up with anyways. and for girls who are young, just put it up for adoption if you know you can't take care of it, or don't want it. whatever the reason.

Sapphire

August 2nd, 2009, 08:37 PM

Out of curiosity, ylllek nivyer, when do you deem life to begin?

ylllek nivyer

August 2nd, 2009, 08:38 PM

Out of curiosity, ylllek nivyer, when do you deem life to begin?

i believe at the time of conception, a new life begins.

Sapphire

August 2nd, 2009, 08:40 PM

i believe at the time of conception, a new life begins.
May I enquire as to why you deem that particular point in time to be the beginning of life?

ylllek nivyer

August 2nd, 2009, 08:42 PM

May I enquire as to why you deem that particular point in time to be the beginning of life?

because that is when the whole process of development begins. even though its tiny, its still happening.

Bougainvillea

August 2nd, 2009, 08:44 PM

Carole, I think she means that's the beginning of the cycle of life.

Sapphire

August 2nd, 2009, 08:44 PM

because that is when the whole process of development begins. even though its tiny, its still happening.
But it isn't a human being at that point. It is only a couple of cells. The collection of cells can't even survive outside the womb at that point.

broken.figurine

August 2nd, 2009, 08:48 PM

i believe at the time of conception, a new life begins.

Then a lot of hormonal contraceptives and IUDs should be considered abortofacients. Some women still ovulate on the pill, so conception may occur. But they alter the lining of the uterus, making an unsuitable environment for the blastocyst as it is at that time to implant into the uterine lining. IUDs, especially the copper IUDs that don't release hormones like ther Mirena, work by making the uterus an unsuitable environment for implantation and growth.

So really, if life begins at conception, all birth control methods except barrier methods (condoms, etc) would be considered abortion.

ylllek nivyer

August 2nd, 2009, 08:48 PM

But it isn't a human being at that point. It is only a couple of cells. The collection of cells can't even survive outside the womb at that point.

your correct, and it isn't meant to survive that way. just as its not meant to be injected with anything either. or pills or anything. it's supposed to live, if all goes as planned according to nature.

Bougainvillea

August 2nd, 2009, 08:48 PM

But it's still living. It's someone. Growing. :)

Sapphire

August 2nd, 2009, 09:06 PM

Then a lot of hormonal contraceptives and IUDs should be considered abortofacients. Some women still ovulate on the pill, so conception may occur. But they alter the lining of the uterus, making an unsuitable environment for the blastocyst as it is at that time to implant into the uterine lining. IUDs, especially the copper IUDs that don't release hormones like ther Mirena, work by making the uterus an unsuitable environment for implantation and growth.

So really, if life begins at conception, all birth control methods except barrier methods (condoms, etc) would be considered abortion.QFT.

your correct, and it isn't meant to survive that way. just as its not meant to be injected with anything either. or pills or anything. it's supposed to live, if all goes as planned according to nature.It will eventually become a living being but at the point of conception and for a number of weeks after that it isn't. It can't carry out functions that we would deem to be essential to our classification of being alive - that includes things such as inhaling air and experiencing different states of consciousness. How can a one week old fetus be alive if it can't breathe etc?

But it's still living. It's someone. Growing. :)See above.

ylllek nivyer

August 2nd, 2009, 09:18 PM

alright, well it may not be alive according to those qualifications, but it will be.

Sapphire

August 2nd, 2009, 09:20 PM

Then why would aborting a pregnancy be so terrible?
You aren't killing anything because it isn't alive yet.

ylllek nivyer

August 2nd, 2009, 09:22 PM

yea, you are. your ending something that was supposed to go on.

Bougainvillea

August 2nd, 2009, 09:25 PM

QFT.

It will eventually become a living being but at the point of conception and for a number of weeks after that it isn't. It can't carry out functions that we would deem to be essential to our classification of being alive - that includes things such as inhaling air and experiencing different states of consciousness. How can a one week old fetus be alive if it can't breathe etc?

See above.

Haha.
Then I scratch my original statement. Well, it's still organic tissue. Not necessarily "alive" but still the building blocks of LIFE. :)

Sapphire

August 2nd, 2009, 09:26 PM

Bougainvillea

August 2nd, 2009, 09:30 PM

You are preventing a life from coming into existence but you are not ending one which has already started. It's akin to digging up and removing a germinating seed from the earth.
As such you aren't killing anything because something has to be alive before it can be killed.

Okay, now I just throw away everything I said and stay with this.
It's true, and it makes me look at abortion differently.

ylllek nivyer

August 2nd, 2009, 09:32 PM

well, i guess you and i have different opinions on what is alive and what is not. if there are seeds in the ground you have a garden even if you can't see the flowers.

Reality

August 2nd, 2009, 09:33 PM

You are preventing a life from coming into existence but you are not ending one which has already started. It's akin to digging up and removing a germinating seed from the earth.
As such you aren't killing anything because something has to be alive before it can be killed.
You're ending it by preventing it, technically.
It may just be a bunch of cells to you, but it's a developing fetus, which will eventually become a living human baby, which is the whole point.

Getting rid of a plant seed is pretty much killing a plant.

Sapphire

August 2nd, 2009, 09:33 PM

Actually scrap that example because respiration occurs during germination...

ylllek nivyer

August 2nd, 2009, 09:35 PM

lol, i don't think we'll ever come to a conclusion, because we have different veiws on what is alive.

Sapphire

August 2nd, 2009, 09:39 PM

Life cannot exist in a vaccum and so for a being to be alive it must respire. If a being can't respire until over 23 weeks into pregnancy then it cannot be alive before that point.

What do you see as "alive" with regards to this topic?

ylllek nivyer

August 2nd, 2009, 09:54 PM

mosaic.

August 2nd, 2009, 09:56 PM

Preventing something from coming to life is not essentially killing it. Killing is to end a life. If there's no initial life to end, then what?

Sure, it was supposed to be a life. I get it. But if you stop it before it is, can you really consider that murder?

ylllek nivyer

August 2nd, 2009, 10:03 PM

i can see what your saying, killing is taking away life, and technically that early in the pregnancy it is not considered alive, so there is no life to take away. so, okay, it's not "killing" but i still consider it wrong. lets call it, "inturrupting the cycle of life." that doesn't sound to good to me.

Sapphire

August 2nd, 2009, 10:04 PM

i already said i believe life begins at the moment of conception. as soon as development begins it is important in my opinion. abortion is unnatural and i don't agree with it. i believe there is a reason for everything there for you should just let it happen and give that baby the best home you can. whether that be keeping him/her and raising them yourself, or giving them to another loving family. IN MY OPINION, abortion is irresponsible. lifes not fair, deal with it. you get prego, just deal with it for nine monthes at least. the thought of abortion for me is terrifying, i don't understand how you could ruin something that is so much a part of you. this is all what i think. if you don't agree, then that is YOUR OPINION. and has no concern to me. i think it is a horrible, ugly, heartless thing to do.Being irresponsible is doing drugs and drinking alcohol while pregnant. That screws up not only your life but you end up bringing a child into the world with either FAS or a drug addiction.

Abortion (while you don't agree with it) prevents some women from experiencing more severe episodes of mental illness (which could result in them killing themselves) due to having to stop meds and the huge hormone changes. That eventuality doesn't benefit the mother or the child - in fact when both could end up dead then abortion is clearly the most responsible course of action to take.

broken.figurine

August 2nd, 2009, 10:06 PM

ylllek nivyer

August 2nd, 2009, 10:10 PM

Do you believe in birth control pills/patches/rings/shots or IUDs?

yea, sure. that stops conception at all though, so how is this relevant?

Sapphire

August 2nd, 2009, 10:11 PM

yea, sure. that stops conception at all though, so how is this relevant?
Actually most of those just make it that the fertilized egg cannot embed itself into the lining of the uterus.

ylllek nivyer

August 2nd, 2009, 10:12 PM

Actually most of those just make it that the fertilized egg cannot embed itself into the lining of the uterus.

well, then thanks for enlightening me. now i'm against it.

broken.figurine

August 2nd, 2009, 10:13 PM

yea, sure. that stops conception at all though, so how is this relevant?

See my post above about how they all can allow conception to happen. One of the ways they work is to alter the lining of the uterus so implantation of a fertilized egg can't happen.

And the copper IUD does nothing to prevent ovulation/conception, just implantation.

Sapphire

August 2nd, 2009, 10:14 PM

well, then thanks for enlightening me. now i'm against it.
So let's say you have protected consensual sex but the condom splits. You wouldn't be prepared to take the morning after pill the next day as a precaution against falling pregnant?

ylllek nivyer

August 2nd, 2009, 10:20 PM

no! never! i think that if you are gonna have sex, be responsible enough to except the consequenses that come along with it. i've been pregnant before, and had a miscarrige ): and i was mortified even tho my baby was a total accident and i was only 2 monthes into the pregnancy.

Sapphire

August 2nd, 2009, 10:22 PM

broken.figurine

August 2nd, 2009, 10:25 PM

I'm sorry to hear about your loss too.

Okay, consensual sex aside. So if you were raped (God forbid), you wouldn't take the emergency contraceptive to prevent that pregnancy?

ylllek nivyer

August 2nd, 2009, 10:28 PM

thank you.

condoms stop conseption from happening. they're not bad. why? i'm not saying sex is only for reproduction. i'm just sayin if you do get pregnant then deal with it.

ylllek nivyer

August 2nd, 2009, 10:29 PM

I'm sorry to hear about your loss too.

Okay, consensual sex aside. So if you were raped (God forbid), you wouldn't take the emergency contraceptive to prevent that pregnancy?

i have been raped, and if i were to have gotten knocked up, i would have still loved it with all my heart, cared for it, and kept it.

damn it, sorry for double posting :(

Sapphire

August 2nd, 2009, 10:31 PM

thank you.

condoms stop conseption from happening. they're not bad. why? i'm not saying sex is only for reproduction. i'm just sayin if you do get pregnant then deal with it.
But taking the morning after pill the next day in the event of a split condom is simply adding an extra layer of protection because the egg isn't guaranteed to be fertilized by the time you take the pill.

ylllek nivyer

August 2nd, 2009, 10:34 PM

i wouldn't want to risk harming the fetus though.

Bougainvillea

August 2nd, 2009, 10:35 PM

Yeah.
It takes a while for the sperm to actually reach the egg.
And there's only two days a month you can get pregnant, right?

broken.figurine

August 2nd, 2009, 10:36 PM

Sperm can live in a woman's body for up to five days. An egg will live for about 12-24 hours.

ylllek nivyer

August 2nd, 2009, 10:45 PM

Yeah.
It takes a while for the sperm to actually reach the egg.
And there's only two days a month you can get pregnant, right?

no, that's just when your more likely to, i think. lol, that could be wrong.

but i'm just saying, i wouldn't do anything if the condom breaks, pray that nothin happens, but if i end up pregnant, oh well. its my fault and i wouldn't ever take the possibility of life from some one else because of my own selfishness of not wanting a child.

Bougainvillea

August 2nd, 2009, 10:47 PM

no, that's just when your more likely to, i think. lol, that could be wrong.

but i'm just saying, i wouldn't do anything if the condom breaks, pray that nothin happens, but if i end up pregnant, oh well. its my fault and i wouldn't ever take the possibility of life from some one else because of my own selfishness of not wanting a child.

Yeah, but what if the pregnancy is a danger to you?

Sapphire

August 2nd, 2009, 10:49 PM

i wouldn't want to risk harming the fetus though.
If you are already pregnant (fertilized egg is embedded in the uterus) then the morning after pill won't work and it won't harm the fetus either. It's almost like giving yourself a second chance without risking any harm to yourself or any potential life.

ylllek nivyer

August 2nd, 2009, 10:52 PM

okay, then i would. ahhahah, i'm not sure why were discussing this.

Sapphire

August 2nd, 2009, 10:53 PM

okay, then i would. ahhahah, i'm not sure why were discussing this.
Yeah, sorry my curiosity took me off on a tangent :P

ylllek nivyer

August 2nd, 2009, 10:53 PM

haha, i forgive you :) lol.

Loislane

September 1st, 2009, 06:15 PM

I hope posting here is ok. It hasn't quite been 4 weeks yet?

deadpie

September 1st, 2009, 08:09 PM

I think abortion is ok on certain circumstances such as rape.

Eagle1

September 2nd, 2009, 03:06 AM

I think abortion is ok on certain circumstances such as rape.

agreed:yes:

Sage

September 2nd, 2009, 03:08 AM

I feel that abortion is absolutelly morally wrong, but to make it illegal is absurd.

theOperaGhost

September 2nd, 2009, 03:17 AM

Sage

September 2nd, 2009, 04:00 AM

I am quite strongly opposed to abortion. Rape is the only time I feel it is acceptable, since the woman didn't consent to sex. I feel if you have consensual sex and get pregnant, too bad. You knew there was a chance of getting pregnant. If you aren't willing to take the risk, don't do the act.

The main problem I've always seen with that reasoning is that it makes motherhood, something that should be a wonderful experience, into a punishment for simply... doing what we as a species are programmed to do.

theOperaGhost

September 2nd, 2009, 08:19 AM

The main problem I've always seen with that reasoning is that it makes motherhood, something that should be a wonderful experience, into a punishment for simply... doing what we as a species are programmed to do.

Oh well...if you don't want the kid, put it up for adoption...there will always be someone who could love the child.

The Batman

September 2nd, 2009, 10:30 AM

How the hell can we force someone to give birth to a child they don't want?

theOperaGhost

September 2nd, 2009, 11:07 AM

How the hell can someone kill a child they don't want?

The Batman

September 2nd, 2009, 11:21 AM

If it's growing inside of their body then they have a right to do what they please with it. It's not like every abortion is going to have live coverage or later appear in the paper so you wouldn't even know. It's something dealing with their private life, if they feel comfortable doing it then who are we to deny it to them simply because we don't like it?

theOperaGhost

September 2nd, 2009, 11:30 AM

who are we to deny it to them?

Humane people.

The Batman

September 2nd, 2009, 11:44 AM

How exactly is that?

theOperaGhost

September 2nd, 2009, 11:49 AM

We don't go around killing fetuses.

The Batman

September 2nd, 2009, 11:58 AM

We don't go around killing fetuses.

If someone is pregnant with a baby they don't want what makes you think they fetus is going to survive if they don't abort it? Don't you think they'll still drink, smoke, do drugs, and do high risk things while still pregnant?

Triceratops

September 2nd, 2009, 12:04 PM

Sage

September 2nd, 2009, 12:16 PM

Your child shouldn't suffer the consequences simply because you chose to have sex. If you made the mistake of forgetting to use contraception then that's your own fault.

Why does it seem the pro-life side always assumes that people who want abortions are irresponsible whores who don't even care? What if someone does use contraception properly and it just simply fails?

Triceratops

September 2nd, 2009, 12:22 PM

Why does it seem the pro-life side always assumes that people who want abortions are irresponsible whores who don't even care? What if someone does use contraception properly and it just simply fails?

They should go through with the pregnancy and put their child up for adoption.

theOperaGhost

September 2nd, 2009, 03:16 PM

abortion is murder. Period.
In my honest opinion, i think it's selfish.

Your child shouldn't suffer the consequences simply because you chose to have sex. If you made the mistake of forgetting to use contraception then that's your own fault.

In cases such as rape, i still believe it's totally wrong to submit to abortion. If you do not wish to bring up a child then put it up for adoption.

Bottom line is, if you fall pregnant and decide you no longer want the baby then you should go through with the pregnancy but pass the child on to another family who are willing to love and care throughout bringing the child up.

they should go through with the pregnancy and put their child up for adoption.

qft!!!!! :)

oh and Thomas those things are more natural than PURPOSELY killing a fetus.

The Batman

September 2nd, 2009, 03:30 PM

theOperaGhost

September 2nd, 2009, 03:57 PM

What makes you think it's not on purpose? It's not right to let personal beliefs interfere with private lives especially when the only person it effects is that person. How about they jet give birth right there at the exact moment they want to abort and see if the baby survives.

So they are starting their drug addictions to get rid of the baby purposely? And they can't just give birth to the baby when the want to abort, it wouldn't survive. The mother is necessary. If the mother is selfish enough to only care about herself, that's just horrible. The mother is not the only person it effects. It stops a life from happening. If this happens naturally (eg. a miscarriage) there's nothing we can do about it and it's a tragedy. When it happens purposely though, it just makes me sick.

Antares

September 2nd, 2009, 04:01 PM

I personally agree with the others saying that if they want to do it, its their lives, they can do it whatever. Just do it in the first trimester.

theOperaGhost

September 2nd, 2009, 04:05 PM

I personally agree with the others saying that if they want to do it, its their lives, they can do it whatever. Just do it in the first trimester.

Suicide only impacts their lives, yet we try our damnedest to prevent that. I view it the same with abortion. Not all things that only impact THEIR own personal life is good or moral. Same with drugs. It's their own personal choice to be on drugs, so why are you against that? It's their lives, they can do whatever they want.

Antares

September 2nd, 2009, 04:06 PM

Suicide?
What are you talking about?

theOperaGhost

September 2nd, 2009, 04:09 PM

Antares

September 2nd, 2009, 04:14 PM

theOperaGhost

September 2nd, 2009, 04:18 PM

If I want to go commit suicide right now I can.
No one is stopping me.

If I wanted to go get an abortion right now, I think I need to get a signed signature from the father and the mother and I should be able to get an obortion because its my chhoice and it doesnt affect you whatsoever

It might not affect me, but I find it morally wrong. And just like I would try to prevent a suicide as much as possible, I would try to prevent an abortion. I think it is morally wrong to stop a life.

The Batman

September 2nd, 2009, 04:21 PM

You said "it's their lives, let them do whatever they want." Suicide only affects their lives, so why don't we let people kill themselves? It's their lives, why not let them end it? (I AM NOT SUPPORTING SUICIDE IN ANY WAY, JUST TRYING TO MAKE A POINT)

Suicide effects the loved ones too. And I didn't say anything about starting those addictions but really everyone knows about the dangers of those during pregnancy and if they still don't stop then it's not an accidentaly miscariage considering they didn't want the baby anyway. Who gives a care that it's selfish a woman has a right to do what she pleases with her body.

theOperaGhost

September 2nd, 2009, 04:25 PM

Suicide effects the loved ones too. And I didn't say anything about starting those addictions but really everyone knows about the dangers of those during pregnancy and if they still don't stop then it's not an accidentaly miscariage considering they didn't want the baby anyway. Who gives a care that it's selfish a woman has a right to do what she pleases with her body.

Thomas, abortion affects loved ones as well. If I were the father or grandfather of that child, I would NEVER allow that to happen. If it did happen, I honestly don't know what I'd do. There's a possibility I would end my life.

Also, are you saying people with addictions don't want children? I can almost guarantee you most smokers are NOT going to stop smoking when they are pregnant and they will still want the kid. Everyone knows about the dangers of having sex too, but they did that to end up in their situation...deal with it. Don't end a life because of your irresponsible actions.

The Batman

September 2nd, 2009, 04:39 PM

Thomas, abortion affects loved ones as well. If I were the father or grandfather of that child, I would NEVER allow that to happen. If it did happen, I honestly don't know what I'd do. There's a possibility I would end my life.

Also, are you saying people with addictions don't want children? I can almost guarantee you most smokers are NOT going to stop smoking when they are pregnant and they will still want the kid. Everyone knows about the dangers of having sex too, but they did that to end up in their situation...deal with it. Don't end a life because of your irresponsible actions.

I'm talkig about the people that don't want the kids Jared, the ones that are smoking, drinking, and doing drugs knowing that it's damaging the fetus and not caring. The woman can just go get an abortion without anyone knowing that she's even pregnant and if they did find out and not want it to happen well I'm sorry but they aren't the ones with the baby growing inside them. I know what I'm saying sounds horrible to you but really I'm not going to supress freedoms because I don't like it.

theOperaGhost

September 2nd, 2009, 04:45 PM

I'm talkig about the people that don't want the kids Jared, the ones that are smoking, drinking, and doing drugs knowing that it's damaging the fetus and not caring. The woman can just go get an abortion without anyone knowing that she's even pregnant and if they did find out and not want it to happen well I'm sorry but they aren't the ones with the baby growing inside them. I know what I'm saying sounds horrible to you but really I'm not going to supress freedoms because I don't like it.

People want to suppress our freedoms to bear arms or to have free speech or freedom of religion all the time. If I were the father of the baby and didn't want it aborted, I get no say? The baby is 1/2 mine. It has my genes. It's MY child and I get a choice in the matter. If pro-abortion people are pro-choice, why don't they give the father of the child any choice? It's the father's baby too. That is where it becomes selfish in my opinion. "Ooh, it's my body! You don't get a choice." Well I say "It's my fucking kid...I do get a choice!"

The Batman

September 2nd, 2009, 04:49 PM

The truth is it's not fair on either side on that part and it never will be. The one with the most rights is the person that will be affected more.

Atonement

September 2nd, 2009, 04:50 PM

I find the intitial question very biased. It is not right. But, that doesn't mean its wrong. I don't promote abortion, but I do promote the choice to bring in a child into life if and only if you a ready to care for them as an acceptable mother and not flood the adoptionagencies.

Loislane

September 3rd, 2009, 01:13 PM

Abortion is murder. Period.
In my honest opinion, I think it's selfish.

Your child shouldn't suffer the consequences simply because you chose to have sex. If you made the mistake of forgetting to use contraception then that's your own fault.

In cases such as rape, I still believe it's totally wrong to submit to abortion. If you do not wish to bring up a child then put it up for adoption.

Bottom line is, if you fall pregnant and decide you no longer want the baby then you should go through with the pregnancy but pass the child on to another family who are willing to love and care throughout bringing the child up.

Abortion is not murder, or it would not be legal. If it was murder, then those that go around murdering people in todays world would either not be sent to prison, or those that have an abortion would.

Oh well...if you don't want the kid, put it up for adoption...there will always be someone who could love the child.

You all say put babies up for adoption, it isn't that simple. Millions of children are up for adoption at the moment. You cannot always trust adoption centers. Some children get raped and violently hurt in there.

If I was pregnant and did not want this child, I'd rather have an abortion than put it into adoption. This is because the FETUS you are getting rid of cannot hear, smell or feel anything. Therefore it does not know it is being aborted. I feel sorry for those who are stuck in adoption centers, as I'm sure one of the first things they think about is how they are not loved.

theOperaGhost

September 3rd, 2009, 01:44 PM

Abortion is not murder, or it would not be legal. If it was murder, then those that go around murdering people in todays world would either not be sent to prison, or those that have an abortion would.

You all say put babies up for adoption, it isn't that simple. Millions of children are up for adoption at the moment. You cannot always trust adoption centers. Some children get raped and violently hurt in there.

If I was pregnant and did not want this child, I'd rather have an abortion than put it into adoption. This is because the FETUS you are getting rid of cannot hear, smell or feel anything. Therefore it does not know it is being aborted. I feel sorry for those who are stuck in adoption centers, as I'm sure one of the first things they think about is how they are not loved.

I'm adopted...

Everyone seems to mix up adoption with something like an orphanage or something. I don't know why everyone on this fucking site is so against adoption...I just can't understand it. I'm a huge supporter of adoption as I've had quite a good life.

My birth mother was an alcoholic with three kids already. My birth father was just a one night fling type of thing. I can guarantee you that if I had grown up in that family, I wouldn't be the person I am today.

I was adopted by my parents. I was the second child they adopted, my sister is 5.5 years older than I am. My parents had three children of their own in the 70s. The first one died when he was 4 days old. The second when she was almost 2 years old and the third when he was almost a year old. I've been raised in a wonderful family and a wonderful extended family as well. This is also the fact of any other adopted children I know. Adoption is nothing like foster care or anything like that. Adoption is a wonderful thing.

Loislane

September 3rd, 2009, 01:51 PM

I'm adopted...

Everyone seems to mix up adoption with something like an orphanage or something. I don't know why everyone on this fucking site is so against adoption...I just can't understand it. I'm a huge supporter of adoption as I've had quite a good life.

My birth mother was an alcoholic with three kids already. My birth father was just a one night fling type of thing. I can guarantee you that if I had grown up in that family, I wouldn't be the person I am today.

I was adopted by my parents. I was the second child they adopted, my sister is 5.5 years older than I am. My parents had three children of their own in the 70s. The first one died when he was 4 days old. The second when she was almost 2 years old and the third when he was almost a year old. I've been raised in a wonderful family and a wonderful extended family as well. This is also the fact of any other adopted children I know. Adoption is nothing like foster care or anything like that. Adoption is a wonderful thing.

I never mentioned in my post that I was against adoption. Ever.
Adoption is often for the best, and I do understand you're situation. Just with how busy adoption centers are now, aborting a baby would be a slightly better solution then simply placing the baby in an adoption center.

I'm not sure about anyone else, but If my parents put me up for adoption when I was very young, I'd feel like nobody in the world loved me. I'd rather have been aborted and not known or felt any of it then sit and wonder if someone right is going to come along or If I have to wait till i'm 16 to move out.

theOperaGhost

September 3rd, 2009, 01:55 PM

I never mentioned in my post that I was against adoption. Ever.
Adoption is often for the best, and I do understand you're situation. Just with how busy adoption centers are now, aborting a baby would be a slightly better solution then simply placing the baby in an adoption center.

I'm not sure about anyone else, but If my parents put me up for adoption when I was very young, I'd feel like nobody in the world loved me. I'd rather have been aborted and not known or felt any of it then sit and wonder if someone right is going to come along or If I have to wait till i'm 16 to move out.

Why would you feel like nobody loved you? They put you up for adoption to save you. To give you to someone who WILL love you. They know they are unfit to take care of you, so they give you to someone who can. I look at giving your child up for adoption as the most loving thing a person can do if they can't take care of a child. It actually gives the child a chance to live a good life.

Triceratops

September 3rd, 2009, 03:56 PM

Abortion is not murder, or it would not be legal. If it was murder, then those that go around murdering people in todays world would either not be sent to prison, or those that have an abortion would.

In my eyes, it technically is murder.
You are killing a living organism and dismissing it's chances of being born in to the world to fulfill a life possibly worth living. Pure and simple.

You all say put babies up for adoption, it isn't that simple. Millions of children are up for adoption at the moment. You cannot always trust adoption centers. Some children get raped and violently hurt in there.

Some children also get raped and abused by their biological parents, it's doesn't just occur in adoption centers. I honestly think most adoption centers are no where near as terrible as people make them out to be.

I feel sorry for those who are stuck in adoption centers, as I'm sure one of the first things they think about is how they are not loved.

I feel sorry for those aborted. They could of had the chance of living a good life such as being successful, talented and a great person. Resorting to abortion is just eliminating all of what could of been.

Why would you feel like nobody loved you? They put you up for adoption to save you. To give you to someone who WILL love you. They know they are unfit to take care of you, so they give you to someone who can. I look at giving your child up for adoption as the most loving thing a person can do if they can't take care of a child. It actually gives the child a chance to live a good life.

I totally agree with that.

Sapphire

September 4th, 2009, 04:08 AM

I appreciate that adoption can and does provide children with loving homes when their biological parents couldn't do so.

But, in the majority of cases, these children have to live in a group home for a number of years before that loving couple come along. I can't imagine that is fun. I can't imagine that waiting for years for people to come and take them home is good for the child's sense of self or sense security. If the home is overcrowded, if the child is quieter than some of the others, if there are too few carers who work there then the child can suffer from chronic feelings like insecurity.
Also, if everyone who was going to abort a pregnancy were to give the child up for adoption there would be an insane number of children not getting adopted or not getting adopted until they're older. This is because the demand for people to adopt children would rise but the number of people willing to do that wouldn't necessarily mirror that.

Abortion is not murder for the pure and simple fact that the fetus isn't alive at that point. It can move but it can't breathe, feel, hear, see etc. If it were alive then it would be viable outside of the womb which isn't possible until 24 weeks into the pregnancy and even then survival isn't guaranteed.
Abortions at or after that 24 week mark are not ok because the fetus is viable and the law in the UK reflects this.

liveyoungdiefast

September 4th, 2009, 02:09 PM

theOperaGhost

September 4th, 2009, 06:34 PM

I support free abortions on demand in the first and second trimester, and with a doctor's consent in the third trimester (I don't view late term abortion as morally wrong but just dangerous to the mother and something to be avoided unless needed)

You seriously don't see abortions of a fetus that is viable outside of the womb as morally wrong? You are a fucked up individual.

The Batman

September 4th, 2009, 06:38 PM

I actually don't agree with late term abortions because not only can the fetus survive but it's so close to birth that they might as well wait and then give up the child for abortion. Also by then there will be pain for the fetus and i can't imagine that.

Sapphire

September 4th, 2009, 06:44 PM

I support free abortions on demand in the first and second trimester, and with a doctor's consent in the third trimester (I don't view late term abortion as morally wrong but just dangerous to the mother and something to be avoided unless needed)
And why don't you see it as morally wrong to have a late term abortion?

liveyoungdiefast

September 4th, 2009, 08:18 PM

You seriously don't see abortions of a fetus that is viable outside of the womb as morally wrong? You are a fucked up individual.

I've done courses of college level psychology, therefore I know sentience is generated by sensory experience.

And why don't you see it as morally wrong to have a late term abortion?

It has had no sensory experience therefore no thoughts.

A prominent philosopher named Peter Singer theorizes that until 3 weeks after birth there is still not a trace of self-awareness. I would have to agree but I think live birth is a good line to draw.

~Posts merged, please don't double post, in future go back and edit~

theOperaGhost

September 4th, 2009, 11:50 PM

It has had no sensory experience therefore no thoughts.

A prominent philosopher named Peter Singer theorizes that until 3 weeks after birth there is still not a trace of self-awareness. I would have to agree but I think live birth is a good line to draw.

A philosopher?? Philosophers are thinkers, not doctors, dumbass. If people start saying it's alright to kill babies until they are 3 weeks old, this is just a sad, sad society.

Now, for an abortion to take place, the fetus cannot be viable outside the womb, in my opinion. (actually, I don't think abortion should take place in the first place, unless you've been raped) In the third trimester, a fetus is viable outside the womb. That doesn't mean it WILL survive, however it means there is a pretty decent chance, especially with today's medical advancements.

I also feel that once you reach the third trimester, you're fucked anyway...you'll have to go through labor no matter what. Labor still has to be induced in a third trimester abortion to give birth to the stillborn baby.

INFERNO

September 5th, 2009, 02:18 AM

I've done courses of college level psychology, therefore I know sentience is generated by sensory experience.

That's wonderful that you've done college-level courses. I'm studying neuroscience and pathology in university. There are quite a few people on this site who are in college or university. However, you shouldn't need to take a college-level course to know that sentience is generated by sensory experience.

It has had no sensory experience therefore no thoughts.

If the fetus is developed enough, then parts of the brain are developing as are the rest of the nervous system. But show me credible evidence supporting your view (and please, don't simply say "I know because I took a college-level course").

A prominent philosopher named Peter Singer theorizes that until 3 weeks after birth there is still not a trace of self-awareness. I would have to agree but I think live birth is a good line to draw.

Your source has been dismissed because Peter Singer is not a philosopher. He has little understanding of medicine and physiology to support his stance. If you want to support your stance, then get evidence from a scientific journal, a part from a book written by expert medical doctors in that field, etc... . You can also try to get evidence from expert psychologists who can support your stance but not a philosopher as they're theorizing about something that they don't understand and their only argument will be philosophical ones and not scientific ones.

Sapphire

September 5th, 2009, 07:38 PM

It has had no sensory experience therefore no thoughts.

A prominent philosopher named Peter Singer theorizes that until 3 weeks after birth there is still not a trace of self-awareness. I would have to agree but I think live birth is a good line to draw.You can't make statements such as that and expect to be taken seriously.

For starters - sensing, thinking and being self aware are three very different things.
Fetuses are able to hear by 17 weeks into the pregnancy as loud noises may startle them, humans are not able to think until some time after they are born and self awareness begins to develop around 1/2 years but goes on indefinitely.
So I don't understand why you seem to not acknowledge that despite referring to all three.

Secondly, what a philosopher thinks about the development of self awareness is inferior to what a psychologist knows about it. Psychologists know that self awareness begins to develop around one year old because they have done proper studies into it.

Deirdree.

September 18th, 2009, 05:19 PM

Jagador

September 18th, 2009, 07:38 PM

I personally have no preferece. It is up to the person to abort the fetus or not. No matter what stage it is. You will get massive complaints that it is wrong, but if the person is not ready to have a baby, then she isn't ready. You can't pressure her to have the baby no matter what trimester it is in just because it is ""WRONG"" or because it is ""RIGHT"" It all depends on the person carrying the baby to make that decision.

Camazotz

September 18th, 2009, 08:12 PM

Its Wrong.

Unless having the child would kill the mother, anything else, in my view is wrong.
The child could of grown up to be a massive success in life, but the mother/parents are being selfish and stopping that.

The child also could have grown up with a serious disease and/or became a dictator such as Hitler. The argument that the child's life may have been good is invalid because we have no idea what would have happened.

Is it selfish if a woman cannot support a child? I would argue that it's selfish to have a child and to depend on government money for support.

Sage

September 18th, 2009, 08:26 PM

Its Wrong.

Bolded text is serious business.

I hold the view that yes, abortion is not the most moral action one can take, but to make it illegal is ridiculous. All arguments for the pro-choice side seem to have already been made and the pro-life side is still chanting "it's wrong, it's murder", and all those fun things. How's about not being so self-righteous and leaving mother's decisions to mothers?

Deirdree.

September 19th, 2009, 09:07 AM

The child also could have grown up with a serious disease and/or became a dictator such as Hitler. The argument that the child's life may have been good is invalid because we have no idea what would have happened.

Is it selfish if a woman cannot support a child? I would argue that it's selfish to have a child and to depend on government money for support.

It's selfish for the mother to pick herself over the un born child.
Everyone deserves a life.

Sage

September 19th, 2009, 06:55 PM

It's selfish for the mother to pick herself over the un born child.
Everyone deserves a life.

So you want to outlaw selfishness?

mosaic.

September 20th, 2009, 10:11 AM

Making abortion illegal violates a woman's privacy to her own body.

Sapphire

September 20th, 2009, 07:07 PM

It's selfish for the mother to pick herself over the un born child.
Everyone deserves a life.
No one deserves to have others dictate what can and can't be done with their own body either.
Especially if their health (physical or psychological) is at risk.

theOperaGhost

September 20th, 2009, 08:04 PM

Making abortion illegal violates a woman's privacy to her own body.

Making abortion legal violates the fetus's constitutional right to life.

Aves

September 20th, 2009, 08:08 PM

Honestly, I think it's wrong. I think just having the baby, then putting it up for adoption is a much better idea

Sapphire

September 20th, 2009, 08:10 PM

Honestly, I think it's wrong. I think just having the baby, then putting it up for adoption is a much better idea
And what if the actual pregnancy puts the woman at risk?

Making abortion legal violates the fetus's constitutional right to life.
Does the Constitution even address abortion?

theOperaGhost

September 20th, 2009, 08:15 PM

And what if the actual pregnancy puts the woman at risk?

Does the Constitution even address abortion?

Nope, it doesn't, however it's in the Declaration of Independence. Our government protects our unalienable rights...the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Aves

September 20th, 2009, 08:15 PM

And what if the actual pregnancy puts the woman at risk?

Does the Constitution even address abortion?

Still, if it puts the woman at risk, she should give birth. It's better to have the baby who has a whole future ahead of them, than someone who has experienced life. In the end the baby has no choice, which should always end in it's favor.

Sapphire

September 20th, 2009, 08:30 PM

Still, if it puts the woman at risk, she should give birth. It's better to have the baby who has a whole future ahead of them, than someone who has experienced life. In the end the baby has no choice, which should always end in it's favor.The health of the woman directly affects the development of the fetus. So, sacrificing her health for the fetus is self defeatist, don't you think?

Nope, it doesn't, however it's in the Declaration of Independence. Our government protects our unalienable rights...the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
But don't they have to be alive for those rights to be enforceable?

theOperaGhost

September 20th, 2009, 08:34 PM

That is where the debate is...I feel a fetus is alive...it's not dead, is it?

Sapphire

September 20th, 2009, 09:04 PM

That is where the debate is...I feel a fetus is alive...it's not dead, is it?It's not able to survive on its own as an individual organism until (at the very earliest) 24 weeks into the pregnancy. It doesn't have all the senses until a few weeks before that. Isn't that what defines "life"? Isn't something deemed as alive when it can sense and respond to the external world?

theOperaGhost

September 20th, 2009, 09:12 PM

It's not able to survive on its own as an individual organism until (at the very earliest) 24 weeks into the pregnancy. It doesn't have all the senses until a few weeks before that. Isn't that what defines "life"? Isn't something deemed as alive when it can sense and respond to the external world?

I define life by a heartbeat. Do you consider someone with a brain injury and very low levels of brain activity but with a beating heart, dead?

Sapphire

September 20th, 2009, 09:21 PM

I define life by a heartbeat. Do you consider someone with a brain injury and very low levels of brain activity but with a beating heart, dead?
By that definition a lot of living organisms are in fact dead which is a contradiction in terms lol

theOperaGhost

September 20th, 2009, 09:25 PM

I understand that. Let me ask this question...do you think it is humane to kill someone who is brain dead? Do you think it is humane to stop someone's beating heart if they are brain dead?

Sapphire

September 20th, 2009, 09:35 PM

I understand that. Let me ask this question...do you think it is humane to kill someone who is brain dead? Do you think it is humane to stop someone's beating heart if they are brain dead?
If someone is brain dead then they are, in fact, dead.
The fact that a machine can keep their heart pumping indefinitely doesn't indicate the existence of life.

http://surgery.med.miami.edu/x285.xml

So how can you kill them if they are already dead?

Sage

September 20th, 2009, 10:04 PM

Still, if it puts the woman at risk, she should give birth. It's better to have the baby who has a whole future ahead of them, than someone who has experienced life. In the end the baby has no choice, which should always end in it's favor.

Despite the fact that that woman is likely somebody's girlfriend, wife, sister, cousin, or friend? Despite the fact thay many people may rely on her to go about their lives? Oh, just another load of irony oozing from the "Pro-Life" side.

Deirdree.

September 22nd, 2009, 12:46 PM

No one deserves to have others dictate what can and can't be done with their own body either.
Especially if their health (physical or psychological) is at risk.

Yeah, I think it's alright if the mothers life is at risk if she has the child.
But the point I'm making is that it's wrong if the mother is doing it because she doesn't want the child.
Clearly adoption would be the best option.

Sage

September 22nd, 2009, 01:33 PM

Yeah, I think it's alright if the mothers life is at risk if she has the child.
But the point I'm making is that it's wrong if the mother is doing it because she doesn't want the child.
Clearly adoption would be the best option.

I can agree with you that it's wrong but that doesn't mean it should be illegal. Cheating on your wife is wrong, yeah, but it's not illegal. There are honestly too many kids waiting to be adopted anyway.

Delusion15

September 22nd, 2009, 05:30 PM

Controversially, I also believe that raped women shouldn't abort their children. Yes, the child was completely unplanned, and having to endure nine months of pregnancy and give birth to a rapists baby is not a nice thought, but the matter of the fact is that some women do, and for this I think they're brave, in comparison, a woman who is raped who just aborts her child at first chance is cowardly in comparison. "The child will remind a rape victim of her rapist" - Again, I refer to adoption. Nobody is saying she has to bring the child up herself.

First of all ignoring your comments about adoption how it is the child get out of jail free card rape victims who keep the baby and then go through 9 months of hell and then give him away when they are born to a family are brave. I hesitate to use the word stupid but truly that is what comes to mind. The Emotional anguish and the probable physical damage would already hurt the baby which may i remind you is nothing more than a collection of cells at the moment and most women might take up habits such as drinking or smoking. However i could go on and on about how women have the right to choose how women who make one mistake are forced to throw their lives away but im going to just say this Women have the right to choose and no book written 2000 years ago or the uninformed minds of a scared public should have any choice in her decision.

Note- i do believe that her husband or boyfriend(if she has one) should also have at least a say in the matter

Deirdree.

September 23rd, 2009, 01:28 PM

I can agree with you that it's wrong but that doesn't mean it should be illegal. Cheating on your wife is wrong, yeah, but it's not illegal. There are honestly too many kids waiting to be adopted anyway.

Will cheating on your partner stop them from living their life?
Maybe for a while, yes.
But it won't stop them from actually living life.
And if you get cheated on, atleast you've had a life, the fetus won't of.
No life at all.

Cheating on your partner and abortion are two completely different things.

Sapphire

September 23rd, 2009, 02:25 PM

Will cheating on your partner stop them from living their life?
Maybe for a while, yes.
But it won't stop them from actually living life.
And if you get cheated on, atleast you've had a life, the fetus won't of.
No life at all.

Cheating on your partner and abortion are two completely different things.I believe he was demonstrating that just because something is deemed (even if it is only by some) to be wrong that it shouldn't be illegal.

Also, the huge difference between the two examples is that one is already living while the other one isn't. You can't compare taking the life of a living, breathing human to the termination of the development of a group of cells unable to survive outside of the womb.