Abortion (Right or Wrong?)

[Sage]

Fetuses are unique human beings.

Yes. Unique in the sense that we can get rid of them before they become a burden to their parents, adoption agencies, society...

[Raptor22]

Yes. Unique in the sense that we can get rid of them before they become a burden to their parents, adoption agencies, society...

No, they are a genetically unique human being. If the parents didnt want them, they should have not created them, it's not the fetus's fault, why should it get punished (brains vaccumed out, etc...).

Aint this pleasant? This is what you people stand for...

[Sapphire]

No, they are a genetically unique human being. If the parents didnt want them, they should have not created them, it's not the fetus's fault, why should it get punished (brains vaccumed out, etc...).And the parents-to-be aren't always at fault of not doing everything they can to prevent a pregnancy.

But "fault" is nothing to do with forcing a woman to carry to term and to give birth.

Aint this pleasant? This is what you people stand for...


And I love how you have resorted to trying to make people feel guilty and disgusted for being pro-choice...How very mature.

[Raptor22]

And the parents-to-be aren't always at fault of not doing everything they can to prevent a pregnancy.

But "fault" is nothing to do with forcing a woman to carry to term and to give birth.

If the woman got herself into the situation, then she must live with it, its only 9 months, then put the fucker up for adoption. She put herself there in the first place. She reaps the consequences for her actions.

And I love how you have resorted to trying to make people feel guilty and disgusted for being pro-choice...How very mature.

Thank you! I love how you have resorted to using insults because you lack the intelligence to create a logical argument. How very mature.

[Rutherford The Brave]

If the woman got herself into the situation, then she must live with it, its only 9 months, then put the fucker up for adoption. She put herself there in the first place. She reaps the consequences for her actions.



Thank you! I love how you have resorted to using insults because you lack the intelligence to create a logical argument. How very mature.

Thank you I love how hypocritical you are. Plus I absolutly love the respect you show women. How very mature.

[Raptor22]

Thank you I love how hypocritical you are. Plus I absolutly love the respect you show women. How very mature.

How is being agaisnt killing defenseless infants disrespectful towards women? Women put themselves in the situation 99% of the time (only 1% of abortions are a result of rape), the baby didnt choose to be there.

[Rutherford The Brave]

How is being agaisnt killing defenseless infants disrespectful towards women? Women put themselves in the situation 99% of the time (only 1% of abortions are a result of rape), the baby didnt choose to be there.

Its the W-O-M-E-N-'-S body she can do with it, as she pleases. No, she doesn't put herself in all of those situations. She's sober her mate, is drunk. In a panic he forgets to put a condom on, she uses birth control. She doesnt use the day after pill until its too late. She never knew he wasn't wearing one. Do you still say its her fault? Because if you do your completly ignorant.

[Raptor22]

Its the W-O-M-E-N-'-S body she can do with it, as she pleases. No, she doesn't put herself in all of those situations. She's sober her mate, is drunk. In a panic he forgets to put a condom on, she uses birth control. She doesnt use the day after pill until its too late. She never knew he wasn't wearing one. Do you still say its her fault? Because if you do your completly ignorant.

The W-O-M-A-N chose to get knocked up. In all of those situations she could have made sure the condom was on, she took her birth control and when she felt gooed in she got a morning after. Carry the baby for 9 months and put it up for adoption, you still havent said whats wrong with that.

[Rutherford The Brave]

The W-O-M-A-N chose to get knocked up. In all of those situations she could have made sure the condom was on, she took her birth control and when she felt gooed in she got a morning after. Carry the baby for 9 months and put it up for adoption, you still havent said whats wrong with that.

Because your treating women like an object like there are just here to carry children and that doesn't sit well with me. No one deserves that, you are making it seem like sex all falls down to the woman. Well it doesn't, if a women gets pregnant its both parties fault, it was his sperm after all. Women are not baby factories, they are people. People who have rights that were given and are being protected by this government, it is her right to get rid of the child. If you take that away, you are being unconstitutional.

[Raptor22]

Because your treating women like an object like there are just here to carry children and that doesn't sit well with me. No one deserves that, you are making it seem like sex all falls down to the woman. Well it doesn't, if a women gets pregnant its both parties fault, it was his sperm after all. Women are not baby factories, they are people. People who have rights that were given and are being protected by this government, it is her right to get rid of the child. If you take that away, you are being unconstitutional.

No I'm treating women like intelligent adults that need to bear the consequences of their actions just like any other life decision this is one that doesnt get a do over. It is not her right to git rid of a child, thats murder. Same as getting rid of the child at 2 days old or 2 weeks old, two years old, or your age saying that the government has no right to say that she has to raise the kids she created.

[Sapphire]

If the woman got herself into the situation, then she must live with it, its only 9 months, then put the fucker up for adoption. She put herself there in the first place. She reaps the consequences for her actions.You cannot force someone to carry a fetus to term or to give birth. It is a huge and cruel invasion of her rights as a person.
And do you not comprehend that sometimes everything that can be done is done and still a pregnancy occurs?
Even men who have had a vasectomy (a procedure with the same effectiveness as things like the pill and a better rate of effectiveness than the morning after pill) can father children (http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2006/dec/23/familyandrelationships.features).

Thank you! I love how you have resorted to using insults because you lack the intelligence to create a logical argument. How very mature.I had addressed the constructive bit off your post and then commented on your transparent attempts to make people repulsed by the pro-choice side of this debate. I didn't insult you, I just criticised the manner in which you had ended that post.

[Raptor22]

You cannot force someone to carry a fetus to term or to give birth. It is a huge and cruel invasion of her rights as a person.
And do you not comprehend that sometimes everything that can be done is done and still a pregnancy occurs?
Even men who have had a vasectomy (a procedure with the same effectiveness as things like the pill and a better rate of effectiveness than the morning after pill) can father children (http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2006/dec/23/familyandrelationships.features).

Nobody forced her to get pregnant except for the 1% that are Abortions as a result of incest or rape.

I had addressed the constructive bit off your post and then commented on your transparent attempts to make people repulsed by the pro-choice side of this debate. I didn't insult you, I just criticised the manner in which you had ended that post.

Fair enough. Just to be clear, I dont have anything against you at all, you are actually pretty intelligent. We just come to different conclusions, and thats a good thing. :)

[Sage]

No, they are a genetically unique human being. If the parents didnt want them, they should have not created them, it's not the fetus's fault, why should it get punished (brains vaccumed out, etc...).

And why should people get punished for, I don't know... enjoying sex?

Aint this pleasant? This is what you people stand for...



Hrm, let's look at the URL of that image.

http://iwka.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/abortion_22_weeks01.jpgTwenty two weeks. Yes, you're not being biased at all.

/sarc

[Rutherford The Brave]

No I'm treating women like intelligent adults that need to bear the consequences of their actions just like any other life decision this is one that doesnt get a do over. It is not her right to git rid of a child, thats murder. Same as getting rid of the child at 2 days old or 2 weeks old, two years old, or your age saying that the government has no right to say that she has to raise the kids she created.

Thats what adoption was for, if she sees fit she can give it up. Not for her to wait 9 months, nine months full of pain, low self esteem and issues. Just so the child can have a life. I'm not saying she can kill a child already living, I am saying she can kill the child that is going to feed off her for 9 months straight

[Sapphire]

Nobody forced her to get pregnant except for the 1% that are Abortions as a result of incest or rape.How does that relate in anyway to my last post which highlights that pregnancies can occur despite the best laid plans?

Fair enough. Just to be clear, I dont have anything against you at all, you are actually pretty intelligent. We just come to different conclusions, and thats a good thing. :)
The different conclusions being that I value the rights of women and you don't? :)

[Raptor22]

Thats what adoption was for, if she sees fit she can give it up. Not for her to wait 9 months, nine months full of pain, low self esteem and issues. Just so the child can have a life. I'm not saying she can kill a child already living, I am saying she can kill the child that is going to feed off her for 9 months straight

She made her bed, she needs to lie in it. Its not the infants fault. Just as if she committed a crime and had time to do in jail, or wrecked her car and had to spend time in the hospital, all bad choices lead to consequences.

[Sage]

Just as if she committed a crime and had time to do in jail, or wrecked her car and had to spend time in the hospital, all bad choices lead to consequences.

So now we're making irresponsible sex a crime. :rolleyes:

[Rutherford The Brave]

She made her bed, she needs to lie in it. Its not the infants fault. Just as if she committed a crime and had time to do in jail, or wrecked her car and had to spend time in the hospital, all bad choices lead to consequences.

No she doesn't Abortion is legal.

[Sapphire]

She made her bed, she needs to lie in it. Its not the infants fault. Just as if she committed a crime and had time to do in jail, or wrecked her car and had to spend time in the hospital, all bad choices lead to consequences.
Have you forgotten that abortion isn't against the law? lol

[Raptor22]

No she doesn't Abortion is legal.

Have you forgotten that abortion isn't against the law? lol

It should be, this thread isnt about legality, it is about right and wrong.

If she is so worried about being pregnant (which isnt that bad) then dont have sex, nobody forced you to have sex (except for the 1%).

[Rutherford The Brave]

No but people should be able to have some god damn sex. We as humans love to have fucking sex, so they shouldn't have to worry. They shouldnt have to feel like they cant have sex.

[Raptor22]

No but people should be able to have some god damn sex. We as humans love to have fucking sex, so they shouldn't have to worry. They shouldnt have to feel like they cant have sex.

Hahahahhhahahaha. :P :D

I'll agree, women can get their tubes tied. I guess sex is like skydiving or performance driving or anything else fun, there is potential for disaster and you have to live with the consequences. ;)

But yeah, sex is awesome. :P

This was a fun discussion Greg, I enjoyed it. :)

[Sapphire]

It should be, this thread isnt about legality, it is about right and wrong.

If she is so worried about being pregnant (which isnt that bad) then dont have sex, nobody forced you to have sex (except for the 1%).
How would you know what pregnancy is like? Do you even know about the risks a woman can be exposed to just by being pregnant? How are you at all qualified to say that being pregnant isn't "that bad"?

Also, why should you be able to dictate how and when a couple can have sex?
If two people want to have sex but don't want a child then there are methods at their disposal that they can use and they use them but still fall pregnant - why should you be able to dictate that the woman has to carry a fetus to term and give birth because you deem them to have "asked for it"?

[Raptor22]

How would you know what pregnancy is like? Do you even know about the risks a woman can be exposed to just by being pregnant? How are you at all qualified to say that being pregnant isn't "that bad"?

Also, why should you be able to dictate how and when a couple can have sex?
If two people want to have sex but don't want a child then there are methods at their disposal that they can use and they use them but still fall pregnant - why should you be able to dictate that the woman has to carry a fetus to term and give birth because you deem them to have "asked for it"?

There are 7 Billion people in this world which means that there had to have been multiple billion people pregnant for that to happen. I never said to dictate when people have sex, im saying that when people have sex they make a choice, just like skydiving or bungie jumping or driving fast or anything enjoyable. There is a remote chance that something really really terrible can happen and if it does, you have to live with the consequences, and when engaging in the activity you'd better be willing to accept them. Abortion is not a form of birth control.

Anyways, debate over I think the thread should be locked, what do you think Greg?

[The Batman]

Anyways, debate over I think the thread should be locked, what do you think Greg?

Sadly it isn't up to you or Greg to decide when this thread should be locked and the debate isn't over just because you're done talking.

[Raptor22]

Sadly it isn't up to you or Greg to decide when this thread should be locked and the debate isn't over just because you're done talking.

Well, we did pretty much put a fork in it. Pretty much talking in circles as of now. It was a good civil discussion, it should end civilly as well. :)

[The Batman]

Well, we did pretty much put a fork in it. Pretty much talking in circles as of now. It was a good civil discussion, it should end civilly as well. :)

If you feel as if the debate is over then you don't have to reply to the thread anymore but I'm not going to lock it simply because you think it should end. There's not point in replying to this post or speaking any more on the matter because I've made my decision already on this matter. Now let's continue the debate.

[Raptor22]

If you feel as if the debate is over then you don't have to reply to the thread anymore but I'm not going to lock it simply because you think it should end. There's not point in replying to this post or speaking any more on the matter because I've made my decision already on this matter. Now let's continue the debate.

Fair enough, I respect your decision. You don't have to be an ass about it though... :P

[Kaius]

Fair enough, I respect your decision. You don't have to be an ass about it though... :P

He wasnt being an ass about it, Merely stating the obvious about the thread.

[Raptor22]

He wasnt being an ass about it, Merely stating the obvious about the thread.

Ahh, I guess I kinda read it the wrong way. Apologies. :P

[Sapphire]

There are 7 Billion people in this world which means that there had to have been multiple billion people pregnant for that to happen. I never said to dictate when people have sex, im saying that when people have sex they make a choice, just like skydiving or bungie jumping or driving fast or anything enjoyable. There is a remote chance that something really really terrible can happen and if it does, you have to live with the consequences, and when engaging in the activity you'd better be willing to accept them. Abortion is not a form of birth control.You still haven't shown any ability to comprehend that pregnancy isn't a walk in the park and that it can put the woman at great risk. Did you forget about that part of my post or do you simply not care?

Abortion is there as a last resort and you cannot dictate to people that they can't get one done because you immediately deem them to have "asked for it" without knowing anything about their particular efforts to avoid pregnancy. To do so is a gross invasion of their human rights.

[Affliction]

yeah i dont support it, if you dont want to get pregnant use a condom

[Raptor22]

You still haven't shown any ability to comprehend that pregnancy isn't a walk in the park and that it can put the woman at great risk. Did you forget about that part of my post or do you simply not care?

Abortion is there as a last resort and you cannot dictate to people that they can't get one done because you immediately deem them to have "asked for it" without knowing anything about their particular efforts to avoid pregnancy. To do so is a gross invasion of their human rights.

You and I are here today having this discussion. Because there are billons on the planet today that means that billions before them must have agreed with me that pregnancy isnt all that bad. Pregnancy is better than some of the other alternative disasters, (dying while skydiving, car wreck, whatever).

[Rutherford The Brave]

You and I are here today having this discussion. Because there are billons on the planet today that means that billions before them must have agreed with me that pregnancy isnt all that bad. Pregnancy is better than some of the other alternative disasters, (dying while skydiving, car wreck, whatever).

You obviously have no clue what its like. The magnititude of pain they go through is on a level all its own. You stub your toe and your like owiee nothing has ever hurt this bad. Dude, I stop by my girl when she went through her pregnancy. Her morning sickness caused her extreme pains and often I was forced to carry her home or even from room to room. The way you put it, it seems like you think that women can continuesly pop out babies. You seem to think that after they go through giving birth, they can turn to their husband and be like. Please sir may I have another?

[Raptor22]

You obviously have no clue what its like. The magnititude of pain they go through is on a level all its own. You stub your toe and your like owiee nothing has ever hurt this bad. Dude, I stop by my girl when she went through her pregnancy. Her morning sickness caused her extreme pains and often I was forced to carry her home or even from room to room. The way you put it, it seems like you think that women can continuesly pop out babies. You seem to think that after they go through giving birth, they can turn to their husband and be like. Please sir may I have another?

She put herself there, everyone for abortion is all "pro choice" im pro choice, I just would rather have the choice come before another human being is brought into the world.

Once she put herself in the situation (the man helped, but he doenst have to endure the pain) she must make the best of it. Get pills for the pain, get an epidural during labor. That was an extreme case.

[Bougainvillea]

My mother was in labor with me for 16 hours!
It was exhilarating. It was a breeze! :rolleyes:

[Rutherford The Brave]

She put herself there, everyone for abortion is all "pro choice" im pro choice, I just would rather have the choice come before another human being is brought into the world.

Once she put herself in the situation (the man helped, but he doenst have to endure the pain) she must make the best of it. Get pills for the pain, get an epidural during labor. That was an extreme case.

Its not as easy to get rid of this pain as you claim it is. You will never know, so saying just take some pills will probably lead to a women possibly hitting you. Or in more extreme cases, which I probably could say would most likely happen. You'd get kicked in the balls. How do I know this? Because I've seen it happen.

[Raptor22]

Its not as easy to get rid of this pain as you claim it is. You will never know, so saying just take some pills will probably lead to a women possibly hitting you. Or in more extreme cases, which I probably could say would most likely happen. You'd get kicked in the balls. How do I know this? Because I've seen it happen.

Well it couldn't have been that bad, we're here. Were not talking about birthing in a log cabin with a midwife here. Still, she put herself in the situation. Just like if she went skydiving and the parachute didnt work, she has to live with the consequences. Maybe sex wasnt entirely worth it, sex has a purpose you know... :P

[The Batman]

Well it couldn't have been that bad, we're here. Were not talking about birthing in a log cabin with a midwife here. Still, she put herself in the situation. Just like if she went skydiving and the parachute didnt work, she has to live with the consequences. Maybe sex wasnt entirely worth it, sex has a purpose you know... :P

My mom almost died giving birth to me and if she were to have any other kids she probably would die. Also, having a baby shouldn't be a consequence it should be a reward.

[Raptor22]

My mom almost died giving birth to me and if she were to have any other kids she probably would die. Also, having a baby shouldn't be a consequence it should be a reward.

Well it is unless you arent in a position to take care of one, that means you need to do everything necessary to prevent the situation from occurring.

[The Batman]

Well it is unless you arent in a position to take care of one, that means you need to do everything necessary to prevent the situation from occurring.

Just like abortion :)

[Sapphire]

You and I are here today having this discussion. Because there are billons on the planet today that means that billions before them must have agreed with me that pregnancy isnt all that bad. Pregnancy is better than some of the other alternative disasters, (dying while skydiving, car wreck, whatever).
In addition to what others have mentioned, the changes that a woman's body goes through when they are pregnant can worsen her mental health if she has a pre-existing disorder.
Just like abortion :)
:) True

[Triceratops]

It's really absurd to think that people should only have sex unless they wish for a child - falling pregnant isn't the sole reason why people should want to partake in sex.

Also, having a baby shouldn't be a consequence it should be a reward.

Agreed.

Well, we did pretty much put a fork in it. Pretty much talking in circles as of now. It was a good civil discussion, it should end civilly as well. :)

How ridiculous; just because you've had your say (and judging by that statement, perhaps you're not considering the opposing views), that doesn't mean the thread should instantly be closed. :rolleyes:

[Rutherford The Brave]

Well it is unless you arent in a position to take care of one, that means you need to do everything necessary to prevent the situation from occurring.

I do not see it as a burden in fact I love taking care of my daughter. Also I took all the precautions to keep myself from having her and yet I did. Greatest mistake I ever made.

[Rebecca L Vaughn]

I think it is wrong because I don't enjoy killing babies.

[CaptainObvious]

I think it is wrong because I don't enjoy killing babies.

Fetuses are not babies.

[Antares]

Abortion: Right or Wrong?

Its your choice.




Why can't it be as simple as that??

[Sage]

Abortion: Right or Wrong?

Its your choice.




Why can't it be as simple as that??

Pedophillia: Right or Wrong? It's your choice.

Personally, I've nothing against abortion. Whether you're killing babies or not, I don't particularly care. Babies suck anyway.

[Raptor22]

Fetuses are not babies.

Yes they are, they are unique human beings with unique genes and unique development.

Pedophillia: Right or Wrong? It's your choice.

Personally, I've nothing against abortion. Whether you're killing babies or not, I don't particularly care. Babies suck anyway.

lol. Thats simple enough... :P

http://www.ozpolitic.com/funny/photos/now-that-I%27m-safe-I%27m-pro-choice.jpg

[Antares]

Pedophillia: Right or Wrong? It's your choice.

Personally, I've nothing against abortion. Whether you're killing babies or not, I don't particularly care. Babies suck anyway.

I choose wrong.

I hope you never have babies, seems like you have lots of love for them hehe

[Sage]

Yes they are, they are unique human beings with unique genes and unique development.

Unique, just like everybody else.

lol. Thats simple enough... :P

http://www.ozpolitic.com/funny/photos/now-that-I%27m-safe-I%27m-pro-choice.jpg

I don't see why you attempt to pull at the heartstrings of one who has clearly just demonstrated that they have none.


I hope you never have babies, seems like you have lots of love for them hehe

I wouldn't want me to multiply either. Oh, gods.

[Raptor22]

Unique, just like everybody else.



I don't see why you attempt to pull at the heartstrings of one who has clearly just demonstrated that they have none.



I wouldn't want me to multiply either. Oh, gods.

And everyone else deserves the right to live, every human being has the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and abortion robs those rights from human beings. I wasnt trying to pull heartstrings with that photo, I found it humorous. :P

[quartermaster]

I don't see why you attempt to pull at the heartstrings of one who has clearly just demonstrated that they have none.



I'm sorry, but I'm not buying this one; short of being a sociopath, I'm positive you have "heartstrings" that can, and are, "pulled." I believe you try to create this cynical, apathetic and at once, emotionally neutral persona, and, to be sure, you may even try to live such a persona in real life, but I'm not at all convinced that it is reality. This is the internet, so of course, such an emotionally detached persona can easily exist, just as a genuinely caring person can "become" a "heartless troll" on b/. Ultimately, however, I am not at all convinced that your persona is truly in-tune to your true thoughts, feeling and emotions.

I'll take that even further, I know that your persona is just that; something that is unreal, created and championed by yourself; so, do continue with your persona, it adds a certain entertaining element to these forums, to be sure, but just do so with the understanding that we see right through it.

[CaptainObvious]

Yes they are, they are unique human beings with unique genes and unique development.

That does not make them babies, that makes them members of the human species. I am not speciesist; I hold as important the idea of personhood, which most fetuses do not attain until - at least - late in their development.

[Sapphire]

And everyone else deserves the right to live, every human being has the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and abortion robs those rights from human beings. I wasnt trying to pull heartstrings with that photo, I found it humorous. :P
Those rights are only applicable to living human beings.
Morally, the point at which life begins is disputed. Legally, life begins at the point of viability (24 weeks into pregnancy). Abortions beyond this point aren't legal (at least not here in the UK).
So, what's your point?

[Mental]

Personally, I think Abortion is down to personal morality, as much as it guts me to say this.

Different people consider a fetus a baby at different times, so for example, one may believe it's a full human at the time of conception and that terminating that fetus is murder. But others don't consider it a full human until it is born and takes it's first breath of fresh air independant of it's mother. But while it's developing, some women may consider the fetus as a parasite.. because it kinda is, it's getting it's food and such from the mother, and being pregnant does obstruct a womans life, as she cannot work, or drink, etc.

I think it's wrong for the state to make abortion illegal, as it does not take into account different womens opinions and beliefs. If I were in charge, abortion would be of course legal, but I'd hope the woman has considered the other options too, i.e. keeping it, or having it adopted.

I'm personally against abortion, though. That's my own individualistic belief. But my beliefs shouldn't be forced on others by some law. That is selfish of me.

[Alfred Pennyworth]

personally, i hate it. no matter how you look at it, it's murder. yes, they might be small and not feel anything, but who knows, they might grow up to change the world. and in any case, a life is a life and there's no way of changing that.

[boy.on.laptop]

I do not believe that some slut who decides to have an unprotected one-night stand with some random stud, and then be like "o lol. its k. i'll just abort it" when she finds out she's pregnant. She should accept responsibility for her actions, and not take the easy way out on things.



Sums up most of my thoughts on it for now. Note that I'm not religious at all (I'm agnostic) and please keep Christianity or any other religion out of this.
Firstly, that is a very narrow minded view I know plenty of women who having sex for the first time to spite using protection still got pregnant, I would still argue that there is some responsibility as if you are having sex there is always some chance of pregnancy. But abortion is not an easy way out I know some girls who quite frankly never get over having an abortion and it lives with them for the rest of their life.

As for "please don't bring religion into it" is crap just because you are not religious, doesn't mean others aren't and it doesn't affect their views. It's like saying don't ket your own financial circumstances come into your views on economic policy(yea rich CEOs will support large tax hikes). My religion plays an enormous part of my views of the world of social, political and my perception towards events. I believe every life is precious through God and should be protected.

some women may consider the fetus as a parasite.. because it kinda is, it's getting it's food and such from the mother, and being pregnant does obstruct a womans life, as she cannot work, or drink, etc.
.

By that logic isn't a born child also a parasite? Can that be aborted to?

Please do not see this as an attack on your beliefs as I too do have some pro-choice views, not because of the whole forcing beliefs thing(some people think murder,stealing,rape is ok, but I am still going to regulate on those issues if I was in charge) but because I woud truly worry that it would push abortions underground and encourage unsafe practices in back-alley type establishments. However there needs to be way more done to limit abortion the whole democrats making abortion rare thing has been crap with no real results.


Please don't double post use the edit button to add more to a post ~Empty Misery

[Mental]

By that logic isn't a born child also a parasite? Can that be aborted to?
The difference is, in literal terms, a born child is not a parasite because it doesn't live in someone elses body depending on them for their food and stuff.

A born baby is just dependant on someone else to look after it, which means anyone that's willing to and not just the mother. When you eat/don't eat a born baby won't exactly be affected.

Please do not see this as an attack on your beliefs as I too do have some pro-choice views, not because of the whole forcing beliefs thing(some people think murder,stealing,rape is ok, but I am still going to regulate on those issues if I was in charge) but because I woud truly worry that it would push abortions underground and encourage unsafe practices in back-alley type establishments. However there needs to be way more done to limit abortion the whole democrats making abortion rare thing has been crap with no real results.
I think Abortion should truly be a Last Resort, and that women should be offered/encouraged proper education on the other alternatives as well as Abortion. It shouldn't be treated like "the easy way out" because it's not.

[boy.on.laptop]

Fetuses are not babies.

In your opinon...

[Sapphire]

In your opinon...
Fetus and baby are both separate terms.
Fetus: The unborn offspring from the end of the 8th week after conception (when the major structures have formed) until birth. Up until the eighth week, the developing offspring is called an embryo.

-- http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=3424Baby
Type: Term
Pronunciation: bā′bē
Definitions:
1. An infant; a newborn child.

-- http://www.medilexicon.com/medicaldictionary.php?t=9072

[Jenna.]

I'm denying life to No one. It's a womens body and she has every right to do with it, as she pleases. If we take away that right of hers, its as if we are saying once again that women are less then men. Even though women go through alot more than we do, and without them their would be no us.

THANK YOU. This is why I'm pro choice. It's the woman's body and she should be able to do what she wants. You can't take away someone's right to make a CHOICE.

[weredemon]

This shouldn't even be a discusion if everybody waited to have sex until AFTER they get married, but people do, and abortion in my mind is murder if you think about that aborted child could have been a human outside of the womb children are gifts from God and people shouldn't think that after unprotected sex "you are punished with a child" that is not the case. "But what if the mother is poor?" well adoption that's the way you handle that situation and because of all the Non-Fag couples that can't have children the waiting list is about 1-2 years for a unwanted child to born and not aborted

[The Batman]

This shouldn't even be a discusion if everybody waited to have sex until AFTER they get married, but people do, and abortion in my mind is murder if you think about that aborted child could have been a human outside of the womb children are gifts from God and people shouldn't think that after unprotected sex "you are punished with a child" that is not the case. "But what if the mother is poor?" well adoption that's the way you handle that situation and because of all the Non-Fag couples that can't have children the waiting list is about 1-2 years for a unwanted child to born and not aborted

First off the word "Fag" can easily be seen as offensive depending on the context you use it in so be careful what words you use and how you use them because they could get you in a lot of trouble.(this is also a warning)

Secondly, most people aren't going to have sex after marriage it's more than just for producing kids these days so when accidental pregnancies happen people should not be forced to raise that child simply because someone "thinks" it's murder. Also, rape victims don't have the choice about having sex before or after marriage so they shouldn't be forced to give birth to a child who's father scarred them for the rest of their life. Another thing is that children are gifts from god IF you believe in god and last time i checked you can return gifts you don't want :P. Adoption is a good option but for people that don't want to give birth then abortion is the best way to go after they have tried every other way to prevent the pregnancy.

[Bluearmy]

Killing a human being is murder. When is that "mass of cells" considered a human? If not at conception, then when? That fertilized egg doesn't just have the potential to become a human being. It is defiantly going too. So shouldn't we just assume it already is human?

[Mental]

Killing a human being is murder. When is that "mass of cells" considered a human? If not at conception, then when? That fertilized egg doesn't just have the potential to become a human being. It is defiantly going too. So shouldn't we just assume it already is human?
Some would argue it's not a human/full human until it's born and independent of it's mother. Some say it's not a human until conception, hell some people may even think when a guy masturbates and a girl has a period they're killing babies. Hell, if you chew those seeds after you eat an apple, you're killing a tree! .. know where I'm going with this?

This is exactly the reason why we shouldn't just make abortion illegal, because everyone has a different opinion on when life begins. If you're pro-life and believe it begins at conception, that's great - you don't have to get an abortion if you/your partner gets pregnant. But what about people who do not believe that?

[Bluearmy]

Some would argue it's not a human/full human until it's born and independent of it's mother. Some say it's not a human until conception, hell some people may even think when a guy masturbates and a girl has a period they're killing babies. Hell, if you chew those seeds after you eat an apple, you're killing a tree! .. know where I'm going with this?

Trees aren't people

If you're pro-life and believe it begins at conception, that's great - you don't have to get an abortion if you/your partner gets pregnant. But what about people who do not believe that?

If you're pro life then you probably have a religious affiliation because atheists are angry and have no morals.

Since you believe life starts at conception because of a soul, then the destruction of a fertilized egg is wrong. No matter who's womb it is in.

[The Batman]

Trees aren't people



If you're pro life then you probably have a religious affiliation because atheists are angry and have no morals.

Since you believe life starts at conception because of a soul, then the destruction of a fertilized egg is wrong. No matter who's womb it is in.

Atheists are not angry people with no morals they are no different than any religious person except for they don't believe in a god.

Also to have a soul means you can feel, speak, hear, and think for yourself but a fetus can't. It's no different than pulling the plug on someone that's brain dead. Christians say that their soul has left their body so what makes you think that the soul comes in at conception?

[Bluearmy]

Also to have a soul means you can feel, speak, hear, and think for yourself but a fetus can't. It's no different than pulling the plug on someone that's brain dead.

–noun
1. the principle of life, feeling, thought, and action in humans, regarded as a distinct entity separate from the body, and commonly held to be separable in existence from the body; the spiritual part of humans as distinct from the physical part.
2. the spiritual part of humans regarded in its moral aspect, or as believed to survive death and be subject to happiness or misery in a life to come: arguing the immortality of the soul.
3. the disembodied spirit of a deceased person: He feared the soul of the deceased would haunt him.
4. the emotional part of human nature; the seat of the feelings or sentiments.
5. a human being; person.
6. high-mindedness; noble warmth of feeling, spirit or courage, etc.
7. the animating principle; the essential element or part of something.
8. the inspirer or moving spirit of some action, movement, etc.
9. the embodiment of some quality: He was the very soul of tact.
10. (initial capital letter) Christian Science. God; the divine source of all identity and individuality.
11. shared ethnic awareness and pride among black people, esp. black Americans.
12. deeply felt emotion, as conveyed or expressed by a performer or artist.
13. soul music.

I have pancakes on my head

Christians say that their soul has left their body so what makes you think that the soul comes in at conception?

I don't think any of the monotheistic religions specify exactly when a soul enters it's vessel. So we might as well assume at conception just to be safe.

[The Batman]

I have pancakes on my head



I don't think any of the monotheistic religions specify exactly when a soul enters it's vessel. So we might as well assume at conception just to be safe.

Making assumptions prove nothing though so that argument doesn't mean a thing. Also your quote of the dictionary definition of soul says exactly what I said three times.

–noun
1. the principle of life, feeling, thought, and action in humans, regarded as a distinct entity separate from the body, and commonly held to be separable in existence from the body; the spiritual part of humans as distinct from the physical part.
2. the spiritual part of humans regarded in its moral aspect, or as believed to survive death and be subject to happiness or misery in a life to come: arguing the immortality of the soul.
3. the disembodied spirit of a deceased person: He feared the soul of the deceased would haunt him.
4. the emotional part of human nature; the seat of the feelings or sentiments.
5. a human being; person.
6. high-mindedness; noble warmth of feeling, spirit or courage, etc.
7. the animating principle; the essential element or part of something.
8. the inspirer or moving spirit of some action, movement, etc.
9. the embodiment of some quality: He was the very soul of tact.
10. (initial capital letter) Christian Science. God; the divine source of all identity and individuality.
11. shared ethnic awareness and pride among black people, esp. black Americans.
12. deeply felt emotion, as conveyed or expressed by a performer or artist.
13. soul music.

[Sapphire]

Killing a human being is murder. When is that "mass of cells" considered a human? If not at conception, then when? That fertilized egg doesn't just have the potential to become a human being. It is defiantly going too. So shouldn't we just assume it already is human?
Once a fetus has reached the point of viability (24 weeks) and it can survive outside of the womb, abortions are illegal.
This point should be very important to you since it gives a cut-off point as it were with regards to when that "mass of cells" becomes a human.
Any abortion carried out after 24 weeks into the pregnancy would then be murder.

As a side note, you can't argue a point properly if you make assumptions about everything and everyone.

[CaptainObvious]

Killing a human being is murder. When is that "mass of cells" considered a human? If not at conception, then when? That fertilized egg doesn't just have the potential to become a human being. It is defiantly going too. So shouldn't we just assume it already is human?

It is not "defiantly [sic]" going to become a developed human organism. A large percentage of pregnancies spontaneously abort. More importantly, this arbitrarily accords potentiality a far too important role.

Thought experiment:

I build a machine into which you put a sperm and an egg. This machine works 100% of the time, fertilizing the egg and then implanting it into a woman on the other end. Now, since once the sperm and egg have been placed in the machine - before they fertilize - they are definitely going to fertilize, should we not regard them both as people? An absurd conclusion, but it follows from your argument of determinism.

The only consistent conclusion that doesn't lead to stupid outcomes is to say that a fetus becomes a human being worthy of protection when it becomes a person - i.e. is capable of thought and the other marks of human existence, even at a basic level. To say this occurs at conception is just stupid. Go read up on the concept of primitive streak formation. Before the primitive streak forms, we have absolutely no idea how many human organisms will develop from a specific embryo. How can we possibly assign personhood to a mass of cells that could just as easily be several people? It doesn't make any sense, and that is why conception is a terrible point to pick.

Trees aren't people

And neither are fetuses. "Person" and "human organism" are not the same thing: those incapable of thought and sentience do not have the same right to life as people. That's why we don't accord animals a right to life, despite their being more functional and self-aware than fetuses. Furthermore, if membership of the human species is your criterion, why do we not mourn the death of each skin cell we slough off daily? Well, because skin cells aren't people. Just like fetuses aren't people.

If you're pro life then you probably have a religious affiliation because atheists are angry and have no morals.

That's just offensive. I am more self-consistently moral, and can defend my ethical values much better than you. Don't you dare accuse me of not having morals just because I refuse to bow down to your sky-God or accept the Bible - an awesome piece of fantasy literature - or some other story like that as the truth of our history.

I don't think any of the monotheistic religions specify exactly when a soul enters it's vessel. So we might as well assume at conception just to be safe.

Ummm, why might we as well assume that? And what about those of us who are skeptical of the concept of a soul as separate from our physical bodies? I think the question of when the soul enters the body is sort of like asking when Noah's Ark set sail: since neither occur(red) in reality, the question is meaningless.

[deadpie]

Plants, animals, and bugs are living things to. If you can kill them, but think it's not alright to kill a fetus, then your a fucking idiot.
Just my opinion. If you disagree, please respond with interesting criticism. I'm open to people's thoughts.

[Mental]

Trees aren't people
I didn't say they were. I was using it as an analogy.

If you're pro life then you probably have a religious affiliation because atheists are angry and have no morals.
That is probably one of the most ignorant things I have ever read. I'm not an atheist (I'm agnostic), but atheism is just when you don't believe in God. That does not mean they don't have morals, all atheists that I know are moral people. You don't need a religion to be a moral and good person.

Since you believe life starts at conception because of a soul, then the destruction of a fertilized egg is wrong. No matter who's womb it is in.
I'm pro-choice, actually. But abortion wouldn't be my choice. If I were a woman, I would not have an abortion and I'm glad my ex-girlfriend didn't, because I don't believe in killing something that is developing.

But where I'm coming from, is, I don't believe that my opinion should be made law and thus forced on people who have different beliefs to mine. I don't believe women who have abortions aren't moral.

[Jenna.]

If you're pro life then you probably have a religious affiliation because atheists are angry and have no morals.



I'm Christian and I'm pro choice. Explain that one.

[boy.on.laptop]

I'm Christian and I'm pro choice. Explain that one.

Actually although I disagree with it his statement still stands, he is claming that pro-life people are likely to have a religious affiliation and that atheists aree *angry people with no morals*, nothing about christians with what he would claim fewer morals. I am only pro-choice because I do not want to push abortion underground(into backstreet alleys etc.) where it can damage the life of the mother as well as kiling the baby.
It is not "defiantly [sic]" going to become a developed human organism. A large percentage of pregnancies spontaneously abort. More importantly, this arbitrarily accords potentiality a far too important role.
That qutie frankly is totally irrelevant, if a baby is aborted before a woman is going to have a miscarriage makes no difference to the actual life of the baby, it was defintely going to die if it wasn't aborted or definetly live there is no middle ground.


That's just offensive. I am more self-consistently moral, and can defend my ethical values much better than you. Don't you dare accuse me of not having morals just because I refuse to bow down to your sky-God or accept the Bible - an awesome piece of fantasy literature - or some other story like that as the truth of our history.


Although I strongly disagree with his comment yours is almost as offensive. you are claiming to have good moral values yet in the same stroke, you are claiming that you can defend your ethical values better than him, call me old fashioned but I personally consider modesty and consideration for others an important moral and ethical values.
Quite frankly calling the bible a fantasy literature is probably the most ethicaless and offensive comment I have read for some time(minus the all atheist are moraless and angry). No matter what you religious affiliation the bible has shaped western society for better or worse(my opinon better) for the last 2000 years. THe bible is the key to God's word and the standards he has set for us in life.

I apologise if I have come across as harsh or too insensitive, I can understand why you would have been offended by the previous comment but in my code of ethics two wrongs do not make a right.

[StateRights]

i think liberals and democrats have there priorities wrong on stuff like this. no offense.

theyre willing 2 murder an unborn innocent baby but do not believe in killing ppl who brutally murder and rape children and women??? wtf???

anyway i think abortion is wrong and is not a womans rights issue which is fully support, but the rights of the baby. im sorry if u r raped but that unborn bby has its own DNA and genetic code and is its own person and u should not kill it. u shud be strong nd love dat baby. many women do this so i think they r strong 4 doing dat. its not the babys fault u were raped is it? u dont want it to remind you of the rapist? thats selfish imo

my opinion.

EDIT - why the Bad Rep??? just cuz u dont like my opinion doesnt mean u should bad rep me.

[Sapphire]

StateRights, as has already been noted in this thread, the term "baby" refers to a newborn child. Before birth, it is called an embryo and then when it becomes more like a human it is called a fetus.

Also, they aren't being hypocritical as the right to life is only applied to all those who are alive. Since a fetus isn't viable until 24 weeks, that right to life is only applied once it reaches that point and (surprise, surprise) abortions are illegal from then on.

Until the point of viability has been reached, it is a woman's rights issue. She has the right to terminate the pregnancy just as much as the right to use contraception to prevent one.

[StateRights]

StateRights, as has already been noted in this thread, the term "baby" refers to a newborn child. Before birth, it is called an embryo and then when it becomes more like a human it is called a fetus.

Also, they aren't being hypocritical as the right to life is only applied to all those who are alive. Since a fetus isn't viable until 24 weeks, that right to life is only applied once it reaches that point and (surprise, surprise) abortions are illegal from then on.

Until the point of viability has been reached, it is a woman's rights issue. She has the right to terminate the pregnancy just as much as the right to use contraception to prevent one.
wtf? so your saying u would rather sum1 who murdered and raped ur friends 2 live den ur baby if u were pregnant??

sorry but where i come from we have morals thank u :cool:

and the "fetus" is still a human being. im not going 2 argue about special terms becuz at the end of the day we cud go on 4ever. there r babies, todlers, children, teenagers, young adults, middle aged adults n old ppl. the fetus is a growing human being.

just cus it is inside a woman doesnt mean she shud just get rid of becuz she wants to. thats murder

if u dont want 2 get pregnant den dont do "it". if ur mature enough 2 have sex den u should be mature enough 2 handle the consequences. only cowardly women r cruel enough 2 abort their innocent baby

can u tell me wats wrong with waiting 9 months then looking after a baby? or even having it adopted if u cant care for it. theres no excuse.

[Sapphire]

wtf? so your saying u would rather sum1 who murdered and raped ur friends 2 live den ur baby if u were pregnant??I don't agree with capital punishment at all. I agree 100% with a woman's right to have an abortion if it is a last resort as long as it is not performed later than the 23rd week of pregnancy. Every living person has the right to life and none of us can take that from them.

If I were to fall pregnant while in an abusive relationship, for example, I would consider having an abortion because that is not the right environment to bring a child into and it is far from easy to get out of that situation anyway. I would rather have a child when I can support it properly in every possible way than when I am struggling to support myself.

sorry but where i come from we have morals thank u :cool:I have morals too, they are just different from yours. If you can't accept that then what is the point in you being in this thread?

and the "fetus" is still a human being. im not going 2 argue about special terms becuz at the end of the day we cud go on 4ever. there r babies, todlers, children, teenagers, young adults, middle aged adults n old ppl. the fetus is a growing human being.Until the 24th week of pregnancy, it simply has the potential to be a living human being.

just cus it is inside a woman doesnt mean she shud just get rid of becuz she wants to. thats murderIt is only murder if it can survive outside of her womb. Since this is impossible until the 24th week, how is an abortion at 6 weeks into the pregnancy murder?

if u dont want 2 get pregnant den dont do "it". if ur mature enough 2 have sex den u should be mature enough 2 handle the consequences. only cowardly women r cruel enough 2 abort their innocent babyYou cannot dictate when people have sex. That, in itself, is a huge violation of people's rights.
Sex is more than just the method whereby new life is created. It is an expression of love, trust, intimacy and fun.
To try to assert that people shouldn't have sex unless they will look after a child is to put a mass of cells over and above their own rights as mature adults which is ridiculous.

can u tell me wats wrong with waiting 9 months then looking after a baby? or even having it adopted if u cant care for it. theres no excuse.It is cruel and inhumane to force a woman to carry a fetus to term and then to give birth to it.
The morning sickness, fatigue, mood swings, the swollen feet, the back pain etc are no walk in the park.
The changes a woman's body goes through when they are pregnant can trigger relapses of mental health problems.
Then there is the agony of going through labour for hours on end.
And that is all overlooking the sexism that exists in the world of employment where women are still sometimes overlooked for promotions, pay rises for taking maternity leave.

[CaptainObvious]

and the "fetus" is still a human being. im not going 2 argue about special terms becuz at the end of the day we cud go on 4ever. there r babies, todlers, children, teenagers, young adults, middle aged adults n old ppl. the fetus is a growing human being.

It is a growing human being. It is not a growing human person. Since it has not attained personhood, I accord it no more inherent right to life than other non-persons in our world - which is to say, I accord it no right to life at all.

just cus it is inside a woman doesnt mean she shud just get rid of becuz she wants to. thats murder

It's not murder unless a fetus is a person.

if u dont want 2 get pregnant den dont do "it". if ur mature enough 2 have sex den u should be mature enough 2 handle the consequences. only cowardly women r cruel enough 2 abort their innocent baby

It's only cowardly if there's something wrong with it. Since I and many others see nothing inherently wrong with ending the life of someone without the mental capacity to comprehend the concept - without personhood - there's nothing "cowardly" or "cruel" about taking the easy and useful way out of an otherwise painful and inconvenient situation.

can u tell me wats wrong with waiting 9 months then looking after a baby? or even having it adopted if u cant care for it. theres no excuse.

Pregnancy and childbirth are no walk in the park, though I figure you ignore that like you ignore all other inconvenient facts in your way.

[StateRights]

ok you both said a simular thing like you did in my other thread.

abortion IS murder cuz once the sperm fetilzes the egg it begins to grow as a baby. just cuz it has no conshience doesnt mean you have the right to take it away. that is cruel.
and i know being pregnant and havin a baby isnt easy for a woman but that doesnt make it right. abortion is not natural and when animals have sex they do it to get pregnant. the only reason sex is enjoyble is becuz your brain releases chemicels that are a sign of you bein rewarded for doin somethin good for ur species which is reproducing
Sex is NOT for pleasure. that is a manmade concept. and sapphire are u a feminist or something cuz you sound like one with that mellowdramatic stuff about women going thru pain. its only for 9 months its not the end of the world!!!! An unborn BABY is its own person and should be treated as such as it has its own dna and genetic code. just cuz it is temporerily dependent on you doesnt mean it is any less human!!!


if you are raped the baby is still half urs. it makes me mad when people say that its exceptable in rape situations becuz the baby is HALF the rapists. its not the childs fault. i cant belive youd rather have a rotten criminal live on your taxes then an innocent baby. whats this world comming to????

[Sapphire]

ok you both said a simular thing like you did in my other thread.

abortion IS murder cuz once the sperm fetilzes the egg it begins to grow as a baby. just cuz it has no conshience doesnt mean you have the right to take it away. that is cruel.
and i know being pregnant and havin a baby isnt easy for a woman but that doesnt make it right. abortion is not natural and when animals have sex they do it to get pregnant. the only reason sex is enjoyble is becuz your brain releases chemicels that are a sign of you bein rewarded for doin somethin good for ur species which is reproducing
Sex is NOT for pleasure. that is a manmade concept. and sapphire are u a feminist or something cuz you sound like one with that mellowdramatic stuff about women going thru pain. its only for 9 months its not the end of the world!!!! An unborn BABY is its own person and should be treated as such as it has its own dna and genetic code. just cuz it is temporerily dependent on you doesnt mean it is any less human!!!It is not a baby until it is born. But credit to you for trying to use an incorrect term in the hope that its emotional connotations will somehow strengthen your argument...

The fetus has rights and is protected by the laws once it is viable outside of the womb.

The rest of your argument loses any strength it ever had since you haven't addressed any points put to you properly, have shown complete disregard for the lives of half of the world's population and shown a lack of understanding as to why people have sex and enjoy having it.

People have sex because they enjoy it. It is also an expression of trust, intimacy and love. It doesn't matter what the biology behind it is, the reason that a lot of people have sex is that they enjoy it.
Even dolphins and Bonobo chimps have been noted to have sex for social as well as reproductive reasons. So having sex for reasons other than to procreate is not a man-made concept.
Clicky here (http://www.allaboutdolphins.net/facts_about_dolphins_part_3)
Clicky here too (http://whale.wheelock.edu/archives/ask01/0154.html)

And I fail to see how I have been melodramatic about the risks and pain involved in pregnancy...

if you are raped the baby is still half urs. it makes me mad when people say that its exceptable in rape situations becuz the baby is HALF the rapists. its not the childs fault. i cant belive youd rather have a rotten criminal live on your taxes then an innocent baby. whats this world comming to????It's not the woman's fault either so why should she be forced to carry the fetus to term and then give birth to it after being a victim of rape when it can seriously affect her life as well as her physical and mental well being?

[CaptainObvious]

abortion IS murder cuz once the sperm fetilzes the egg it begins to grow as a baby. just cuz it has no conshience doesnt mean you have the right to take it away. that is cruel.

Cruel to who? The fetus doesn't have the sentience or brain activity required to understand its own existence, so how can terminating it be cruel?

and i know being pregnant and havin a baby isnt easy for a woman but that doesnt make it right. abortion is not natural and when animals have sex they do it to get pregnant. the only reason sex is enjoyble is becuz your brain releases chemicels that are a sign of you bein rewarded for doin somethin good for ur species which is reproducing

Actually, there are animals who have sex for pleasure, as we understand the concept. Whatever the evolutionary reason for why sex is enjoyable, it is enjoyable, and so whatever the natural purpose of sex we can happily co-opt it as we wish. Why is unnatural bad? You're using the Internet, which is unnatural, probably living in a house, you probably drive around in cars, etc. etc. These things are all unnatural. Oh, how about cutting hair? That's not natural either!

Unnatural does not mean bad or to be avoided, in any way.

Sex is NOT for pleasure. that is a manmade concept.

Morality is a manmade concept too, but you don't seem to have a problem with its application. We're humans, we are not required to behave as if we were non-sentient animals because we are... sentient.

An unborn BABY is its own person and should be treated as such as it has its own dna and genetic code. just cuz it is temporerily dependent on you doesnt mean it is any less human!!!

Do you not read the things we say or are they just too complicated for you? "Person" has a very specific meaning, and fetuses do not meet the definition for most of the course of a pregnancy. Yes, you're right, they are human and share our genetic code; that does not make them people. My skin cells share my genetic code and, with our technology, can be used to create new human beings. But I do not mourn their constant death, because: they are not people!

if you are raped the baby is still half urs. it makes me mad when people say that its exceptable in rape situations becuz the baby is HALF the rapists. its not the childs fault. i cant belive youd rather have a rotten criminal live on your taxes then an innocent baby. whats this world comming to????

Well at least you're consistent. If someone is truly pro-life I expect them to abhor the rape exemption.

[Triceratops]

If you're pro life then you probably have a religious affiliation because atheists are angry and have no morals.

Some people who enter these debate threads can be shockingly stupid beyond belief at times...

I fiercely despise this stereotype so much - there are just as many pro-life Atheists as there are pro-life religious people. Also, just because someone disbelieves in a higher being's existence, that doesn't exclude them from having morals in the slightest! What the hell made you come up with such an absurd statement?! Not only is this ignorant and offensive towards Atheists, but to religious people as well.

[Hatsune Miku]

I think Abortion is the womens choice. A baby is a huge responsibility. Some people might not have the money to support the baby when its born. Some just cant handle a baby.

And what if a women or girl is raped? They have a total right to Abortion. Would you really want a child at 14? I wouldn't.

if you are raped the baby is still half urs. it makes me mad when people say that its exceptable in rape situations becuz the baby is HALF the rapists. its not the childs fault. i cant belive youd rather have a rotten criminal live on your taxes then an innocent baby. whats this world comming to????

You're supposed to have a baby with someone you love. Why the fuck would anybody want to have a child that was made from the sperm of a random guy? I feel really bad for the mother who has to tell their kid when they grow up, "Your father was a rapist. I was raped, and you were born"

[CaptainObvious]

there are just as many pro-life Atheists as there are pro-life religious people.

While I like the rest of your post, that is a completely indefensible statement. While it's certainly true there are pro-life atheists, to think that there are as many as there are pro-life religious people - by proportion, or even moreso by absolute numbers - is more than a little bit absurd

[Ryhanna]

It's just one of those issues thats always going to be around. But ultimately it's the womans choice - She has to carry it and give birth to it.

But religious groups need to accept that if the woman doens't want it, thats okay, it's a major responsibilty.

The father of the baby may want to keep it, whereas the mother may not. In any such case, I guess the guy has to get over it... He'll get another one.

[Asylum]

I think abortion should only happen if the mother’s life is in danger. However, everyone has rights to their own body. I think abortion should be legal, so they have a choice. However, each person who is thinking about an abortion should be given both views of abortion and give them time to think about it. Because if you made it illegal, people would still do it. Drugs are illegal, but people do it. In some places abortion isn’t legal, so women abort on the streets or with coat hangers. They can get very hurt with this. They need medical attention. Yes, I’m aware that the baby is living, but would it seriously want to live unloved? Catholics say give the child a choice. Well that’s just giving the right to the child and forcing them to live. What if years later, they decide their life isn’t worth living? Do they now have the right to commit suicide? No, suicide is also immoral.
I’ll give an example, a teenager is raped. She is now pregnant. Because she is pregnant she is kicked out of school. She now cannot graduate high school, can’t go to college, and can’t work, because she has to take care of the baby. She also loses her friends. Her parents try to support her, and it seems they are the only ones who care anymore about her. When she goes in public, she is given dirty looks, because even though she was raped, she is under aged, and not married, and has a baby. The baby grows up. It looks almost exactly like her rapist. She gets reminded of him every day. She now works a horrible job that gets little pay. She is just meeting the payments, or perhaps she is still living with her parents. That traumatic experience doesn’t leave her. She suffers from severe depression from the incident, and drinks because of it. The child becomes aware that the mother doesn’t like him very much. He becomes depressed as well, maybe starts to drink, self harm, or becomes suicidal. The mother knows one day she might snap. She already abuses him, when she is drunk, and he does something wrong. She feels guilty, because she loves, but hates him. She is confused about her own feelings towards him. She feels guilty for the way she treats him. She may even develop Schizophrenia. She may end up killing herself or the child. Either way the child ends up messed up. With mom gone, he might end up on drugs, or perhaps killing himself too.
Could I really put a child through this? I don’t think I could ever. I believe that is the mother is questioning whether or not to abort, not to abort until they 100% positive, that they want to abort. Abortion itself messes people up. Besides the fact it is dangerous, you now live the rest of your life knowing you have killed something that was a part of you. Every child you will look at will remind you of what you have done. You will get depressed and feel very guilty. No one should abort unless they are 100% positive that they do not want the child. Month 3 should be the last chance you get to abort.
Every case is different to why a person would abort; I think that both sides should calmly hear their views. If the person chooses to abort, it’s their decision; they are not going to change it. They can’t take it back. So why tell them they will go to hell and make them feel guilty about it? Do people not think they already know the obvious? Plus that will screw up the person mentally.
Adoption is a very good option. Both my sister and I were adopted. However I believe that if you do not want a child use birth control and condoms. Because you still feel abandoned. So in all in all, I would encourage against abortion. I do not have the right to take away someone’s free will and wants. Sure make abortion illegal, but people will still do it, so why not make it safe? I respect both views and am completely neutral to abortion.

personally i don't think that the "male government" should deicde... why?they will never have to deal with something like this.... they don't care.. if th guy gets a girl pregnant most of the time he says 1. abort it. 2. put it for adoption. or 3. he just disappears.. this is not always the case... but is usually is.. men don't have to deal with the problems it will create.

ok you both said a simular thing like you did in my other thread.

abortion IS murder cuz once the sperm fetilzes the egg it begins to grow as a baby. just cuz it has no conshience doesnt mean you have the right to take it away. that is cruel.
and i know being pregnant and havin a baby isnt easy for a woman but that doesnt make it right. abortion is not natural and when animals have sex they do it to get pregnant. the only reason sex is enjoyble is becuz your brain releases chemicels that are a sign of you bein rewarded for doin somethin good for ur species which is reproducing
Sex is NOT for pleasure. that is a manmade concept. and sapphire are u a feminist or something cuz you sound like one with that mellowdramatic stuff about women going thru pain. its only for 9 months its not the end of the world!!!! An unborn BABY is its own person and should be treated as such as it has its own dna and genetic code. just cuz it is temporerily dependent on you doesnt mean it is any less human!!!


if you are raped the baby is still half urs. it makes me mad when people say that its exceptable in rape situations becuz the baby is HALF the rapists. its not the childs fault. i cant belive youd rather have a rotten criminal live on your taxes then an innocent baby. whats this world comming to????

ok... if your raped... what if yur baby looks liek the guy who raped you... seirously.. then you se his face like every fucking day.... the baby will have features that look like him... i mean its enough to totally be rminded of that mentall, but seeing it... and how will the mother treat he baby if she hates the guy who raped her... and the baby is a part of him... especially if it looks like him... the mom isn't going to necessarily love it... i man its not always the case,... but still.. and congras your a man... yu dn't have to deal with any of this..
please use correct big words when trying to prove a point and "act" smart about it.

and no itsjust not 9 months my friend... what about the emotinal guilt of ptting it up for adoption... not to mention the adopted daughter will want to knwand meet her rela mommy... and whne her real mommy says no... it affects the child too.. it also affects the child because she was given up, because she couldn't be loved by hr mommy... this wll always stay with them mom... Rape, adotpion, eveyrthign will stay with her and haunt her... so its not jst 9 months of hell.. mentally ts for life... and if you keep it.. its for life...
and no i've heard sex is pleasureable... so i don't see where your idea is coming frommm whoever sex for the first few times for a woman hurts a lot... espcially if its rape...

Please do not triple post. If you would like to add any additional information to your original post, then please use the "EDIT" button. ~Pandora.

[Mental]

Magik5.. do you have to like.. triple post and write a big wall of text? You should edit your posts and use proper paragraphs. plnx. /grammar nazi

Anyway, as I've been saying, it's all really down to personal morality and beliefs, since there's so much semantics and "what ifs" in this kinda thing. But people like this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1039956/I-FOUR-abortions-time-I-16.html

.. really annoy me. I cannot approve of abortion being basically used as another form of contraception. I have a lot more sympathy for the rape\accident cases or where the mother could die, or the baby will be born to have a crap quality of life, anyway.

[Jove]

if you are raped the baby is still half urs. it makes me mad when people say that its exceptable in rape situations becuz the baby is HALF the rapists. its not the childs fault. i cant belive youd rather have a rotten criminal live on your taxes then an innocent baby. whats this world comming to????

What if said woman didn't have the capacity to raise a child/had a disease that will transmit to the child?

[boy.on.laptop]

No one should abort unless they are 100% positive that they do not want the child.

How can you be absoutely sure about a decision like abortion? THe truth is you never can be 100% sure and even things that they are people can change their mind. Ask any 5 year old most of them would say they are absoutely sure they want to be President or even 100% sure they think they will be. People change and their decisions past,present and future change with the,.

[Kristin]

Abortion is wrong because it involves the killing of innocent babies-it's just as simple as that.

[The Batman]

How can you be absoutely sure about a decision like abortion? THe truth is you never can be 100% sure and even things that they are people can change their mind. Ask any 5 year old most of them would say they are absoutely sure they want to be President or even 100% sure they think they will be. People change and their decisions past,present and future change with the,.

It's not a 5 year old making the decision it's an adult thinking out all options and coming to what she thinks is best for herself.

[Triceratops]

While I like the rest of your post, that is a completely indefensible statement. While it's certainly true there are pro-life atheists, to think that there are as many as there are pro-life religious people - by proportion, or even moreso by absolute numbers - is more than a little bit absurd

I'm aware of that. I wasn't really meaning to be that precise - I was using that term rather loosely as a rough idea. I should of worded it a little better.

[boy.on.laptop]

It's not a 5 year old making the decision it's an adult thinking out all options and coming to what she thinks is best for herself.

No but it is often girls as young as 13 who I would not classify as adults plus I was nit refering to the comparison as an itelligence comparison more that humans change their minds at different times and that in life it is almost impossible to be 100% certain about a decision.

[The Batman]

No but it is often girls as young as 13 who I would not classify as adults plus I was nit refering to the comparison as an itelligence comparison more that humans change their minds at different times and that in life it is almost impossible to be 100% certain about a decision.

Girls that young can't get a legal abortion without their parents consent though and I'm pretty sure people can be 100% sure about a decision I know I have been. Like I am 100% sure I'm going to hit the submit reply button.

[Rutherford The Brave]

Abortion is wrong because it involves the killing of innocent babies-it's just as simple as that.

I'm not seeing how simple that is, apparently you are not seeing the rest of the arguement.

[boy.on.laptop]

Girls that young can't get a legal abortion without their parents consent though and I'm pretty sure people can be 100% sure about a decision I know I have been. Like I am 100% sure I'm going to hit the submit reply button.

It depends on the state, I know in New Zealand girls can have an abortion at that age without their parents consent. Quite frankly I find that offensive to compare clicking a button to having an abortion, also your making a decision about a future action, that you are sure you are cgoing to hit the button in the future but its not neccessairly something you can say you are certain you will be happy with in the future. I know I have said some pretty stupid things on Vteen not matter how much passion or heart-felt I thought my statements were at the time, but again it has nothing to do with having an abortion.

[The Batman]

If someone is going to have an abortion they'll have to live with it no matter how they feel. It's not an easy decision to make but still it's something that they have to deal with not us. It's something someone does in their private life that doesn't have to be made public and that no one would even know about unless they told you them self.

[ltimm]

Any woman- regardless of age, health risks, etc.- should be able to get an abortion (NOT IN THE THIRD TRIMESTER THOUGH).
First- It's a FETUS! Technically not a person!
Second- It's the woman's decision. If she fells that it would be better for the baby (i.e. a mental illness), then she has every right! She also has the right to do it under every circumstance.
Third- I'm not for abortion after birth! When the baby is born it is technically not a fetus anymore, but a human.

[boy.on.laptop]

If someone is going to have an abortion they'll have to live with it no matter how they feel. It's not an easy decision to make but still it's something that they have to deal with not us. It's something someone does in their private life that doesn't have to be made public and that no one would even know about unless they told you them self.

This doesn't have anything or very little to do with either of our previous points.
If its not an easy decision to make than how can an individual be 100% sure they are making the right decision? Just because a decision is not made public does not mean it any more or less likely for an indidual to be certain about a decision.

[Sapphire]

This doesn't have anything or very little to do with either of our previous points.
If its not an easy decision to make than how can an individual be 100% sure they are making the right decision? Just because a decision is not made public does not mean it any more or less likely for an indidual to be certain about a decision.
Equally, by the same token, just because it is difficult decision doesn't mean that someone can't be 100% sure in what they decide to do.

[Doctor Fate]

I am strongly pro-life. Very personal reasons have caused me to feel the way, and that is all I am going to say. But, nevertheless, I still very much understand and accept the way pro-choicers feel - after all, it is always important to be able to see both sides of an argument.

I think abortion is acceptable if it's for the sake of the mother's life or health, or if they already know that something is seriously wrong with the baby and it's not fixable and the child is not likely to have a very good, or a very long life anyway. Any other circumstance, I think it is wrong. I don't like it at all.

I also feel that the father should have a say in the matter... but alas, I know it is more important that the woman has 100% control over her own body, and that it is nobody else's choice but her own.

I understand fully that freedom of choice is a must. But, I still think anyone who calls an unborn child a "clump of cells", or considers it to be anything less than a living human being, is full of shit. We're all human, and we were all fetuses in the womb once, remember?

Not that that has any effect on the fact that women still do and must have the right to choose.

[Sage]

But, I still think anyone who calls an unborn child a "clump of cells", or considers it to be anything less than a living human being, is full of shit.

Human beings are clumps of cells.

[boy.on.laptop]

Human beings are clumps of cells.

By that logic, an unborn child is an human being.

Equally, by the same token, just because it is difficult decision doesn't mean that someone can't be 100% sure in what they decide to do.

I disagree, a difficult decision means that is very unlikely someone will ever be 100% sure with their decision. For example I chose Surf over Persil washing powder today, it is not a decision I am going to think about for the rest of my life, unlike an abortion.

[Doctor Fate]

Human beings are clumps of cells.

Same idea. Aren't we all just big clumps of cells? Meaning we're all human, even if we have not been born yet? Yer...

[Giles]

I'm going to be honest, I read the first post and nothing after that. I'm far too lazy, so forgive me is I get something wrong here.

As I'm not religious at all I see no problem with abortion, as it's not even truly alive yet.

[2D]

I, being religious, don't give a shit.

I said this earlier and then got pwned, but here goes. Abortion sends babies to God faster. It's a win win for me so I don't care. It's the couples choice.

[Sapphire]

I disagree, a difficult decision means that is very unlikely someone will ever be 100% sure with their decision. For example I chose Surf over Persil washing powder today, it is not a decision I am going to think about for the rest of my life, unlike an abortion.But by that logic no couple can ever be 100% sure that they want to get married, have a child, get a divorce or to move to a new country since they are all other examples of difficult decisions that they will have to live with...Yet, there are couples who are 100% certain about these things.
Just because a decision is difficult to make doesn't mean that it is impossible to be sure about it once you have reached it.

[2D]

You guys are making no progress stating the obvious again and again. Derp.

[Giles]

You guys are making no progress stating the obvious again and again. Derp.

^= main reason I don't get into these debates often..

[CaptainObvious]

I understand fully that freedom of choice is a must. But, I still think anyone who calls an unborn child a "clump of cells", or considers it to be anything less than a living human being, is full of shit. We're all human, and we were all fetuses in the womb once, remember?

We were also sperm cells, once. Is masturbation therefore mass murder? No, because it is not important what something may become, it is important what it is. And fetuses are not people, and therefore do not deserve any right to life.

[Jesusb]

abortion should only be an option in certain situations

[2D]

abortion should only be an option in certain situations

Care to elaborate? This is a debate section after all.

[INFERNO]

I think abortion is acceptable if it's for the sake of the mother's life or health, or if they already know that something is seriously wrong with the baby and it's not fixable and the child is not likely to have a very good, or a very long life anyway. Any other circumstance, I think it is wrong. I don't like it at all.

Are you against abortion if the mother's family or situation won't support the baby? Also, do you support late-term abortions also? Depending on what the disease is, it may only be detected later in the pregnancy.


I also feel that the father should have a say in the matter... but alas, I know it is more important that the woman has 100% control over her own body, and that it is nobody else's choice but her own.

The father could have some say but there's really not much of a point because even if he objects, the mother is the one who is carrying the fetus. Also, if the fetus does get aborted, it's not much trouble for the father to re-impregnate the same mother.


I understand fully that freedom of choice is a must. But, I still think anyone who calls an unborn child a "clump of cells", or considers it to be anything less than a living human being, is full of shit.

All humans, whether unborn or born, are clumps of cells. The same goes for other animals, plants, fungi, etc... . It's asinine to say that it's bullshit whenever someone says humans are made of cells, even if it's an unborn human or fetus.

By that logic, an unborn child is an human being.


An unborn child has to be a human. It has human DNA, the parents were human, I mean, you aren't really expecting it to be an orange.


Any woman- regardless of age, health risks, etc.- should be able to get an abortion (NOT IN THE THIRD TRIMESTER THOUGH).

Why?


First- It's a FETUS! Technically not a person!

True, however, in in the third trimester it's not a person either.


Third- I'm not for abortion after birth! When the baby is born it is technically not a fetus anymore, but a human.

Wrong on two counts. First, an abortion after birth is not possible according to the definition of what an abortion is. Second, the fetus is always a human. It may not be a person but it's a human. To say that it's somehow a human when born implies that while it's a fetus, it doesn't share human DNA, doesn't share DNA from the parents, etc... . In other words, it could be a turnip yet somehow when born, the DNA magically changes along with the anatomy and physiology to allow it to be a human.

[Mental]

I also feel that the father should have a say in the matter... but alas, I know it is more important that the woman has 100% control over her own body, and that it is nobody else's choice but her own
What should the father's "say" in the matter be, exactly, seeing as you noted that it's 100% the womans control over her body?

If the father had any say in issues like this, lets say, he got half of the decision, then it will spiral into massive womens rights issues, as some feminists would see it as men trying to control womens lives and bodies. If the dad did have a say, then women could be forced to have abortions or give birth against their will, and that would be cruel.

The only rights the man should have, IMO, in cases like this, is that he (providing he's the known father) is legally notified that the mother is having the abortion - but he still should have no say.

[Salvi]

I think that it all the depends on the economic or phycologic situation of the women that wants the abortion

[Kahn]

Right and wrong.

Right because if there is someone that cannot hold onto the baby, maybe because they have a problem, they are too young, or they just cannot deal with something like that they should be allowed to get an abortion without anyone questioning them. Of course it is wrong at the same time by killing the fetus.. Why not give it up for adoption?

Anyway. It is wrong because you are taking the life of a human being before it even started. It was not meant to be killed, it was meant to grow. But sadly we have the technology so why not right?

Like I said. Right and wrong.

[Kitty Purry]

me personally think that abortion is up too the person who is pregnet. why should we be allowed to say what other people do. I think that people should just mind there own business and let people do what they want. I do beleive that they should not use abortion as a form of birth control tho

[ltimm]

Wrong on two counts. First, an abortion after birth is not possible according to the definition of what an abortion is.

I didn't mean it like that. But how a doctor kills the baby after the mother goes int o premature labor. You know how a doctor sticks a needle into the back of the baby's head?!

[Shadowhunter]

I really think its wrong on many levels....I mean its one think if you are not ready, like if it wasn't planned but still inside you that is a living person, that thing inside you has a soul just like all of us and just like all of us deserves its chance at life...it's something i would not want anyone to go through..its almost as if there is a law to allow a legal version of murder...I know that sounds like a harsh way to put it and i know there are many views on this i just think if you went through with abortion it would follow you through your whole life...what would they have looked like, sounded like, would they have your eyes her hair....it would just be to much guilt and i would not want that on me if it ever happened....and if it was a money issue why not an adoption adjacency or something you know so when you want to see them someday you at least have the option..

[Zazu]

Locked as OP is banned.