Abortion (Right or Wrong?)

[Sage]

It's right, natural, and sometimes essential.

I say natural as over 50% of all pregnancies are aborted by the woman's body in the first few weeks/days when a genetic abnormality is found by the ribosomes due to an RNA scripting error.

HOWEVER - it should be done sooner rather than later, as a few cells is a lot different to a fully formed foetus with a heartbeat.

I won't agree with you that it's always right, and I don't think abortion is natural at all, but you raise fine points otherwise.

[kenoloor]

Its Wrong.

Unless having the child would kill the mother, anything else, in my view is wrong.
The child could of grown up to be a massive success in life, but the mother/parents are being selfish and stopping that.

I agree. Abortion is just legalized murder, and unless the mother's life is in jeopardy, I believe it should NOT be used.

[Sage]

I agree. Abortion is just legalized murder, and unless the mother's life is in jeopardy, I believe it should NOT be used.

So you think "murder" can be justified?

[theOperaGhost]

Murder can be justified and excused under certain extenuating circumstances.

[quartermaster]

So you think "murder" can be justified?

Can one not justify abortion (defined as "murder" in this context) to save a woman's life in the very same way one can justify murder in self-defense?

[Deirdree.]

I agree. Abortion is just legalized murder, and unless the mother's life is in jeopardy, I believe it should NOT be used.

Thank You :)

Where is murder not illegal?

I never said it was? You must of read my post wrong.
But some states in America, death penalty is legal.

I never said that it was illegal everywhere - why do you think I was?

Lol, no I'm not saying that, if you care to read my post properly then you will see that I made clear the difference between murder (taking life from a living person) and abortion (termination of the development of a fetus). Nowhere did I condone murder or say that murder should be legalised.

You said ''Just because something is deemed to be wrong, it shouldnt be illegal''
Therefore, you're making the point that it is illegal everywhere, which its not.

But technically it is murder, it would of had a life if the mother didnt have a termination.
Your arguing to the fact that abortion shouldn't be illegal, abortion is murder, so therefore you're saying abortion shouldnt be illegal.

[Sage]

I never said it was? You must of read my post wrong.


You said:


It's not illegal everywhere.


If it's not illegal everywhere, then it's legal somewhere.

[The Batman]

You do realize that murder is taking a life and to call abortion murder you have to define what a life is.

[quartermaster]

You do realize that murder is taking a life and to call abortion murder you have to define what a life is.

I believe by calling abortion murder, they already have done that.

[The Batman]

No they haven't they simply made a statement and didn't back it up. Life begins when the fetus can survive outside the womb IMO. Now how do you define life?

[Deirdree.]

You said:



If it's not illegal everywhere, then it's legal somewhere.

Yeah, I was talking about abortion.

[Shalom]

I don't think abortion is the best route to go, at least give the baby up for adoption if you don't want it.

[kenoloor]

No they haven't they simply made a statement and didn't back it up. Life begins when the fetus can survive outside the womb IMO. Now how do you define life?

I believe that life has already started before the fetus is out of the womb. After all, the fetus does respond to stimuli and uses energy.

[Justwondering]

I think abortions are extremely wrong. The baby doesn't have the choice which I think is unfair. It's murder. What if that person can cure cancer? Or be the next Albert Einstein. If you don't want a baby, be more responsible. If you took measures to prevent it and you still get pregnant, put it up for adoption.

[Sage]

I believe that life has already started before the fetus is out of the womb. After all, the fetus does respond to stimuli and uses energy.

That doesn't make it sentient.

I think abortions are extremely wrong. The baby doesn't have the choice which I think is unfair. It's murder. What if that person can cure cancer? Or be the next Albert Einstein. If you don't want a baby, be more responsible. If you took measures to prevent it and you still get pregnant, put it up for adoption.

Your first argument could just as easily be turned against you. Instead of curing cancer or being the next Einstein, isn't it just as likely to nuke a country and become the next Hitler? And when it comes to 'responsibility', that's also a poor argument because then you're turning being pregnant and becoming a mother into some sort of punishment for irresponsibility.

[The Batman]

Why should someone be forced to give birth? If they want to have unprotected sex and get aborted when they are pregnant it's their life not ours. They will have to live with it not us.

[Justwondering]

Your first argument could just as easily be turned against you. Instead of curing cancer or being the next Einstein, isn't it just as likely to nuke a country and become the next Hitler? And when it comes to 'responsibility', that's also a poor argument because then you're turning being pregnant and becoming a mother into some sort of punishment for irresponsibility.

That first point is true, but I was trying to look on the positive side of things. Second point, Some people plan on having kids. If your irresponsible enough not to take the measures to prevent pregnancy, why punish someone who doesn't have the chance to say anything because of your stupidity. It's not a punishment for becoming pregnant, but you don't have to kill someone thats innocent and has no change to say anything, you could simply give it up for adoption.

However, I do see the good side of abortion. Things like your first point, bringing them into this harsh world, and keeping the population down.

Just to clarify, I'm not fighting with anyone here, I'm just saying my opinion.

[Sapphire]

You said ''Just because something is deemed to be wrong, it shouldnt be illegal''
Therefore, you're making the point that it is illegal everywhere, which its not.You will actually find that I was explaining a point someone else had made and not my own view.

But technically it is murder, it would of had a life if the mother didnt have a termination.
Your arguing to the fact that abortion shouldn't be illegal, abortion is murder, so therefore you're saying abortion shouldnt be illegal.Murder is the taking of a life from a living being. As I have explained on many numerous occasions, I define life as beginning when a fetus is viable outside of the womb (which is 24 weeks into the pregnancy).
So, I do not view abortions that are carried out before this point as being murder.
This is mirrored in the legal system here as it is illegal to abort after 24 weeks into the pregnancy.

I have explained this all several times in this thread.

I believe that life has already started before the fetus is out of the womb. After all, the fetus does respond to stimuli and uses energy.One of the signs of life is a perception of pain and fetuses actually do not develop the capacity to feel pain until long after the 20th week of a pregnancy.

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/294/8/947

[Justwondering]

You will actually find that I was explaining a point someone else had made and not my own view.

Murder is the taking of a life from a living being. As I have explained on many numerous occasions, I define life as beginning when a fetus is viable outside of the womb (which is 24 weeks into the pregnancy).
So, I do not view abortions that are carried out before this point as being murder.
This is mirrored in the legal system here as it is illegal to abort after 24 weeks into the pregnancy.

I have explained this all several times in this thread.

One of the signs of life is a perception of pain and fetuses actually do not develop the capacity to feel pain until long after the 20th week of a pregnancy.

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/294/8/947

She does have some good points. I'm in between after reading some peoples post on this thread.

[kenoloor]

I'm not looking at this from a scientific point of view. I'm looking at it from MY point of view. I believe that a fetus is a life form, not matter how small it is, or whether or not it responds to pain. People can argue this point, but this is MY opinion. Not some scientific fact. Just clarifying.

[lilhellboii]

its wrong because ur are killing someone and well since u already got pregnat is not the best way take it off from an innocent child.

[Sage]

I'm not looking at this from a scientific point of view. I'm looking at it from MY point of view. I believe that a fetus is a life form, not matter how small it is, or whether or not it responds to pain. People can argue this point, but this is MY opinion. Not some scientific fact. Just clarifying.

'm not looking at this from a scientific point of view. I'm looking at it from MY point of view. I believe that a fruit fly is a life form, not matter how small it is, or whether or not it responds to pain. People can argue this point, but this is MY opinion. Not some scientific fact. Just clarifying.

[Sapphire]

I'm not looking at this from a scientific point of view. I'm looking at it from MY point of view. I believe that a fetus is a life form, not matter how small it is, or whether or not it responds to pain. People can argue this point, but this is MY opinion. Not some scientific fact. Just clarifying.
I was just addressing your claim that fetuses all respond to stimuli as it's not true.

[Deirdree.]

This thread is so you can get your views out.
That's all I did
No need to start ganging up on me like.

[Sage]

This thread is so you can get your views out.
That's all I did
No need to start ganging up on me like.

It's a debate. People disagree with you. If there's a flaw in your argument, then it'll be called on.

[Sapphire]

It's a debate. People disagree with you. If there's a flaw in your argument, then it'll be called on.
Very true.

Deirdree, if you don't like people challenging your view then why participate in a debate? Lol

[kenoloor]

I was just addressing your claim that fetuses all respond to stimuli as it's not true.

Then my bad. I apologize for not supporting my facts with research.

'm not looking at this from a scientific point of view. I'm looking at it from MY point of view. I believe that a fruit fly is a life form, not matter how small it is, or whether or not it responds to pain. People can argue this point, but this is MY opinion. Not some scientific fact. Just clarifying.

And what was the point to this post?

[Sage]

And what was the point to this post?

It's to show that your reasoning is so loose and vague that it could be used to defend the life of anything. You have no problem killing fruit flies, do you? They're just as sentient as human fetuses.

[Deirdree.]

It's a debate. People disagree with you. If there's a flaw in your argument, then it'll be called on.

No, there's no flaw in my argument.
Our views are just different
I respect that.
If you want to think that abortion is okay, you keep thinking that
I just think it's wrong.
My views are mine
Yours are yours
There's no right or wrong in this.

Very true.

Deirdree, if you don't like people challenging your view then why participate in a debate? Lol

I never said I didn't.
Get your facts right

[Sapphire]

I never said I didn't.
Get your facts right
You never explicitly said it but your little whine about everyone "ganging up on" you indicated it...

Tbh, if either of us needs to get their facts straight, it isn't me.

[Deirdree.]

I didn't say everyone was ganging up on me.
I was referring to you and Deschain

[RaeNose]

I personally despise the act of abortion.
When I read how all of the procedures were performed, I threw up.
I'm very humanistic. I see the potential in all life.
I know that other people will not see it the same way.
But I know that I would probably put the life of the child before my own.

[aaaaaaaaaaaaaaagg]

I think that abortion in almost all cases are wrong. I disagree with it. I'm pregnant and I'm keeping my baby. The baby was concieved by rape but I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I ever killed it. I think that if you are able to take care of the baby and having the child isnt life threatening then it shouldn't be aborted.

There are ways to prevent pregnancy so you don't have to turn to abortion. Condoms? The pill? Spermicide? Cervical cap? Diaphram? These are just a few other the many methods of contraception.

So, in most cases I'm against it but there are some when I support it.

[alex95]

Well im with it if the girl wants it so yeah......

[Sage]

I'm very humanistic. I see the potential in all life.

As do I, RaeNose. As do I.

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[RaeNose]

That whole thing makes me sick.
Like, really.
Watching those poor people die rips my heart out, scorches it, and replaces it: wounded and shriveled.
However, we can never know what the future holds for everyone. We never know who will rise up as a ruler, fight and die for their country, kill thousands of innocent civilians.
Still, death of innocent life is never the answer.

[Sage]

However, we can never know what the future holds for everyone. We never know who will rise up as a ruler, fight and die for their country, kill thousands of innocent civilians.

And assuming they'll all be saints is just as useful as assuming they'll all be demons. Your point is moot.

[RaeNose]

You never assume.
Everyone has potential for right and wrong, good and evil.
Why would we kill one who hasn't done anything for their life, yet?
Out of the selfishness of the mother?
Out of the selfishness of the father?
Because it's going to be difficult?
Life is difficult; however, it is beautiful.

[Sage]

You never assume.
Everyone has potential for right and wrong, good and evil.
Why would we kill one who hasn't done anything for their life, yet?
Out of the selfishness of the mother?
Out of the selfishness of the father?
Because it's going to be difficult?
Life is difficult; however, it is beautiful.

As a living being, you're naturally biased to sympathize with other living beings. And no, you would not do it out of selfishness. The mother would do it because she is the only one who can decide what to do with her body and no one can know her situation better than her.

[theOperaGhost]

As a living being, you're naturally biased to sympathize with other living beings. And no, you would not do it out of selfishness. The mother would do it because she is the only one who can decide what to do with her body and no one can know her situation better than her.

Nah...I disagree...I think abortion is done out of selfishness most of the time.

[The Batman]

Don't we have the right to be selfish?

[theOperaGhost]

Don't we have the right to be selfish?

I guess if you really find it necessary to be selfish and end a life, go ahead...I hate it but I'm not going to look at anyone who has had an abortion any differently then someone who hasn't. I hate the act and I hate doctors who perform abortions, but it would take a lot for me to hate someone just for getting an abortion.

Although, I don't think it says anywhere in the constitution or anything that we have the right to be selfish.

[Triceratops]

I guess if you really find it necessary to be selfish and end a life, go ahead...I hate it but I'm not going to look at anyone who has had an abortion any differently then someone who hasn't. I hate the act and I hate doctors who perform abortions, but it would take a lot for me to hate someone just for getting an abortion.

Sums my thoughts up exactly.
Same goes for what Kylie is saying as well.

I've already explained my views on abortion in this thread so I don't see the point in repeating myself, if anyone was actually wondering as to why I haven't eleborated on my opinions in this post.

[Sage]

Although, I don't think it says anywhere in the constitution or anything that we have the right to be selfish.

Jared, I may disagree with you on a lot of things, but come on now. That is a really weak argument. You can do a lot better than that, man.

[Deirdree.]

You never assume.
Everyone has potential for right and wrong, good and evil.
Why would we kill one who hasn't done anything for their life, yet?
Out of the selfishness of the mother?
Out of the selfishness of the father?
Because it's going to be difficult?
Life is difficult; however, it is beautiful.

That's the exact truth :)

[theOperaGhost]

Jared, I may disagree with you on a lot of things, but come on now. That is a really weak argument. You can do a lot better than that, man.

I wasn't really striving for a strong argument with that statement. Thomas made it sound like it was a constitutional right to be selfish or something...I was just stating that it is not explicitly stated in the constitution that we have the right to be selfish although it may be stated implicitly...somewhere along the lines of right to happiness or something? idk...some people are happy being selfish. I'm really just rambling and not making an argument anymore at this point, so I shall cut myself off until I have an actual argument to make.

[nachtspiegel]

I believe that a life begins either when brain waves form or a heartbeat does. Whatever happens first. I'm honestly not an expert on the subject of fetal development, but I do believe that although it can not survive without it's mother, it's still alive. Otherwise, a fetus wouldn't move. How can you call something that moves... and can bleed... not living?

In general, I don't agree with abortion, but I do have several friends that have had one and I haven't downed them for having one.

[useitorloseit69]

i have lost friends over this topic. I personally being the liberal male i am i believe abortion is up to the woman that has to make the decision. i dont undedrstand why people of this day and age get upset because someone might have an abortion. who gives a flying fuck. its not you that has to live with the feeling knowing that you could have had a child already or what life could be like if you went threw with it. Give up america. Its up to that girl that decided to have unprotected sex. or what if she was being smart and was having protected sex and mr.Trojan breaks and she doesnt have the means to buy a emergency contraceptive. Or for heaven sakes she gets raped. Do you expect for her to carry the child of a rapist? Hell no. And adoption by my standards is far worse than abortion. That child might never know thier biological parents and might have a terrible upbringing by parents that are just looking for government assitance. Please i beg you. Stop trying to but into other peoples lives and let them make thier own decision and live with the consequences.:mad:

[theOperaGhost]

i have lost friends over this topic. I personally being the liberal male i am i believe abortion is up to the woman that has to make the decision. i dont undedrstand why people of this day and age get upset because someone might have an abortion. who gives a flying fuck. its not you that has to live with the feeling knowing that you could have had a child already or what life could be like if you went threw with it. Give up america. Its up to that girl that decided to have unprotected sex. or what if she was being smart and was having protected sex and mr.Trojan breaks and she doesnt have the means to buy a emergency contraceptive. Or for heaven sakes she gets raped. Do you expect for her to carry the child of a rapist? Hell no. And adoption by my standards is far worse than abortion. That child might never know thier biological parents and might have a terrible upbringing by parents that are just looking for government assitance. Please i beg you. Stop trying to but into other peoples lives and let them make thier own decision and live with the consequences.:mad:

Adoption is much better than abortion. I know this from personal experience, even though I can't speak for everyone who has been adopted. I can only speak for myself and the other people I know who are adopted like me.

[The Batman]

Adoption isn't a gauruntee though there are so many kids now who will spend all of their childhood in foster homes. So adoption is good but it's not always gonna happen.

[Kahn]

Right and Wrong.

Right because what if there is a 16 year old girl who has parents that aren't willing to help her take care of the child and throw her to the street so her and her boyfriend can do it themselves. Then the boyfriend dumps the girl because he can't handle a child. I know it sounds unbelievable but it does happen I'm sure of it. Is it right to let the Child probably live a life of poverty and sadness. I wouldn't want to put a child through the pain of not having a father or having the Father be a complete ass towards him or her because it is an accident. Parents treat children like that because of how inconvenient the infant is. She should get an abortion. It will stick with her the rest of her life but she will probably have saved a child not knowing how life is from a terrible life.

Wrong because it defies people's beliefs, ideas, and kills a pre-mature infant. Sad nonetheless. Hence why there are debates over it. People are angry because it defies what they're used to. It isn't normal and it doesn't appeal to the people so therefore it is unwelcome.

I do wish people would give it some thought though. People are too quick to judge. But in the matter of abortion it is all a matter of opinion.

[nachtspiegel]

In saying this, I am not devaluing how terrible child abuse in any of its forms is, so don't take my opinion that way because that's not how it is. During my childhood, I experienced every form of abuse that there is for years, so I know firsthand how terrible it is. Anyway, when you pair it out, putting a child in an environment where the possibility - but not the certainty - of abuse or neglect is no worse than using surgical tools to rip a developing child from their mother's womb. I think that if many people actually saw the remains of that dead child after the abortion, they wouldn't be so keen to have a woman lay down and consent to it.

[mrmcdonaldduck]

Right and Wrong.

Right because what if there is a 16 year old girl who has parents that aren't willing to help her take care of the child and throw her to the street so her and her boyfriend can do it themselves. Then the boyfriend dumps the girl because he can't handle a child. I know it sounds unbelievable but it does happen I'm sure of it. Is it right to let the Child probably live a life of poverty and sadness. I wouldn't want to put a child through the pain of not having a father or having the Father be a complete ass towards him or her because it is an accident. Parents treat children like that because of how inconvenient the infant is. She should get an abortion. It will stick with her the rest of her life but she will probably have saved a child not knowing how life is from a terrible life.

Wrong because it defies people's beliefs, ideas, and kills a pre-mature infant. Sad nonetheless. Hence why there are debates over it. People are angry because it defies what they're used to. It isn't normal and it doesn't appeal to the people so therefore it is unwelcome.

I do wish people would give it some thought though. People are too quick to judge. But in the matter of abortion it is all a matter of opinion.

that is what i think excactly

[Hyper]

Right and Wrong.

Right because what if there is a 16 year old girl who has parents that aren't willing to help her take care of the child and throw her to the street so her and her boyfriend can do it themselves. Then the boyfriend dumps the girl because he can't handle a child. I know it sounds unbelievable but it does happen I'm sure of it. Is it right to let the Child probably live a life of poverty and sadness. I wouldn't want to put a child through the pain of not having a father or having the Father be a complete ass towards him or her because it is an accident. Parents treat children like that because of how inconvenient the infant is. She should get an abortion. It will stick with her the rest of her life but she will probably have saved a child not knowing how life is from a terrible life.

Wrong because it defies people's beliefs, ideas, and kills a pre-mature infant. Sad nonetheless. Hence why there are debates over it. People are angry because it defies what they're used to. It isn't normal and it doesn't appeal to the people so therefore it is unwelcome.

I do wish people would give it some thought though. People are too quick to judge. But in the matter of abortion it is all a matter of opinion.

Your reason for it being right is amazingly naive and immature..

By your logic I should be damning existence itself!

Of course my mother wasn't 16 when she conceived and my father did live with us for awhile.. But in the end I still grew up as a kid knowing that daddy lives 2 hours away and doesn't want to see his kid because he is busy drinking.

Of course my life also defies your naive reasoning.. Stuff like that can happen to anyone regardless of age, preparation, maturity to have kids, financial security etc.

Bad things can and happen in some degree to absolutely everyone.

And yes above else its a matter of personal opinion. To me its just wrong - you don't have the right to deny life through intervention. ( If your going to argue LOLWUTABOUTBIRTHCONTROL then I'm automatically considering you as an idiot )

There are horrible circumstances, but even those don't justify abortion in my eyes.

Sometimes in life we're really just left with (seemingly) no choice but to do wrong.

[Dreaming Cannibal]

Although, I don't think it says anywhere in the constitution or anything that we have the right to be selfish.

We have the moral right to be selfish. We need a time to think of our self and if you really want to be happy a nice way to do so is to think of yourself before others when it involves you and your body.

[RaeNose]

We have the moral right to be selfish. We need a time to think of our self and if you really want to be happy a nice way to do so is to think of yourself before others when it involves you and your body.

I don't think that selfishness and moral rights should be in the same sentence. In my opinion (do not attempt to slaughter me because it's MY OPINION), it takes a stronger person to set aside themselves for the sake of others. Sure, you can say that you are only human and that the obstacles are too great to overcome, but I feel like that's the coward's way out.

[Sage]

I don't think that selfishness and moral rights should be in the same sentence. In my opinion (do not attempt to slaughter me because it's MY OPINION), it takes a stronger person to set aside themselves for the sake of others. Sure, you can say that you are only human and that the obstacles are too great to overcome, but I feel like that's the coward's way out.

We're not allowed to be selfish and yet you are here debating faceless nobodies on the internet while billions of people in the world are dying in poverty! If you are so strongly set on legislating charitability, then you may as well donate every single luxurious thing you own to people who have nothing!

This is the goddamned problem I have with the conservative view of thinking. Forcing people to do the morally right thing by law will not make them moral, it'll make them hate the law. Would the more noble thing to do incase of an accident be to suck it up and have the child? Yes!

Should you force everyone to do it? No!

I don't think that selfishness and moral rights should be in the same sentence. In my opinion (do not attempt to slaughter me because it's MY OPINION),

You don't get to follow this with a message on how we should all have courage. Welcome to Ramblings of the Wise. You put your ass out there, prepare to be spanked.

[RaeNose]

Alas, we do agree on one thing.
It's not going to matter whether abortion is illegal or not, if one is desperate enough, she will still get one.
It just breaks my heart.

[Sage]

Alas, we do agree on one thing.
It's not going to matter whether abortion is illegal or not, if one is desperate enough, she will still get one.
It just breaks my heart.

Then we're in the same boat. Yeah, I think abortion is an immoral act, but to outlaw it is draconian in the highest sense.

[liveyoungdiefast]

I believe that a life begins either when brain waves form or a heartbeat does. Whatever happens first. I'm honestly not an expert on the subject of fetal development, but I do believe that although it can not survive without it's mother, it's still alive. Otherwise, a fetus wouldn't move. How can you call something that moves... and can bleed... not living?

Why a heartbeat? You would be as dead without a liver as you would be without a heart. You'd be as dead without lungs as without a heart. You'd be as dead without skin as without a heart. So why do we emphasize heartbeats? It's purely poetic. A heart is a living machine.

Brain waves? We had brain waves the first months of our after birth life and no self-awareness at all. In fact even in toddler years our self-awareness was very, very minimal. So I wouldn't count that either.

Bacteria we spray for, trees we cut down, and animals we slaughter are all life.

Life does not will itself to the greatest number possible. Life consumes life, life destroys life, life disregards life. That is the nature of life.

[Alfred Pennyworth]

definitely wrong

[karl]

My personal opinion is that it's wrong for ANY reason, even to save the girl's life.

[Sage]

definitely wrong

This is a debate forum. Throwing out your opinion with no reasoning or justification is a waste of space, adds nothing to the conversation, and most importantly, is cowardly and speaks greatly of your character.

My personal opinion is that it's wrong for ANY reason, even to save the girl's life.

You, sir, are a monster. Death for irresponsible sex? Go back to the bronze age.

[INFERNO]

definitely wrong

Your reasoning was so good, it flew right by me. Care to state it again?

My personal opinion is that it's wrong for ANY reason, even to save the girl's life.

So you think it's better to have two deaths than one death? Killing the fetus and yes, I'm assuming for the purpose of this that a fetus can be considered living (ignoring my actual beliefs), in order to only have one death is worse?

That's equivalent to a scenario of whether or not you'd allow one person to die in order to save 10 or even 1,000 people, theoretically, you'd just allow all 10 or 1,000 people to die rather than just the 1.

Why do you consider two deaths to be better than having one or no deaths?

[baby21]

Me personaly i think its wrong. but its all on who the mother is. if she got raped then i think its okay for her to have the abortion. but if u "accidentaly" get prego and u dont want the kid its all on the mother.
But me personaly accident pregnacy or not its wrong. i know i would never do that. killing a baby even if its as small as a peanut or not its still wrong in my eyes

[Sage]

Me personaly i think its wrong. but its all on who the mother is. if she got raped then i think its okay for her to have the abortion. but if u "accidentaly" get prego and u dont want the kid its all on the mother.
But me personaly accident pregnacy or not its wrong. i know i would never do that. killing a baby even if its as small as a peanut or not its still wrong in my eyes

Why do you make an exception for rape and not for consensual sex? The woman isn't choosing to get pregnant in either situation- especially if every possible contraceptive was used ahead of time. If you're going to punish irresponsibility, why not deny hospital services to people who OD on hard drugs? After all, they're making the choice, aren't they?

[quartermaster]

Why do you make an exception for rape and not for consensual sex? The woman isn't choosing to get pregnant in either situation- especially if every possible contraceptive was used ahead of time. If you're going to punish irresponsibility, why not deny hospital services to people who OD on hard drugs? After all, they're making the choice, aren't they?

I would actually agree with you on this basic premise; though we are of different schools of thought in regards to abortion policy, I do not believe rape to be a suitable reason for abortion cases. If I do, indeed, believe that abortion is the destruction of a life, and I believe the destruction of a life is, on balance, a bad thing, then I believe it is an egregious action to destroy a life over a rape. To be sure, the only way such an action could ever be considered (meaning abortion), given my axiom, would be in the unavoidable destruction of the mother's life. If what I believe is true, then I would argue that though rape is a sufficient condition for abortion, it is not a necessary condition (I would argue that the life of a mother would be a necessary condition), thus I do not support abortion in any other case but in which the mother's life is threatened.

[mosaic.]

I believe this debate will always come down to the argument of when life begins. Is to abort a pregnancy when the case is merely a few stem cells equivalent to murder? Arguable. But no matter what, there will always be the different perceptions on when life begins. There is no right answer.

[Death]

My personal opinion is that it's wrong for ANY reason, even to save the girl's life.

definitely wrong

So a rape victim should be forced to give birth and have a baby? You'd prefer to kill the baby and the mother? Wow.

[Triceratops]

So a rape victim should be forced to give birth and have a baby? You'd prefer to kill the baby and the mother? Wow.

I believe life beings at conception - you should not kill any living being.

The rape victim should give birth to the child, but if she can't cope with responsibilities of bringing up a child that brings memories of her horrific ordeal then she should give the child to an adoption centre or another caring family who are willing to look after it - there are couples who are unable to have children of their own who would be more than happy to adopt this child.

I can understand why a rape victim wouldn't want to keep the child but aborting it is cruel and wrong, it isn't the childs fault over what had happened so I don't see why should it face the consequences.

If the mother's life is at risk, I still think it's wrong to abort the child. Not one individual is worthy enough to hold the decision whether they should end another's life or not. If the woman has a right to a life then so should the child. The way I see it, killing another living organism to save yourself is a selfish act.

[Rutherford The Brave]

I believe life beings at conception - you should not kill any living being.

The rape victim should give birth to the child, but if she can't cope with responsibilities of bringing up a child that brings memories of her horrific ordeal then she should give the child to an adoption centre or another caring family who are willing to look after it - there are couples who are unable to have children of their own who would be more than happy to adopt this child.

I can understand why a rape victim wouldn't want to keep the child but aborting it is cruel and wrong, it isn't the childs fault over what had happened so I don't see why should it face the consequences.

If the mother's life is at risk, I still think it's wrong to abort the child. Not one individual is worthy enough to hold the decision whether they should end another's life or not. If the woman has a right to a life then so should the child. The way I see it, killing another living organism to save yourself is a selfish act.

Marcie, I'm just going to put a hypothetical situation out there. Let's say abortions are illegal, and a young girl is raped. Now she is suffering from mental illness and she cannot rid herself of the baby. So she jumps off a ledge, in a suicide attempt. Yet she survives, do you accuse this mentally ill girl of murder?

[Triceratops]

Marcie, I'm just going to put a hypothetical situation out there. Let's say abortions are illegal, and a young girl is raped. Now she is suffering from mental illness and she cannot rid herself of the baby. So she jumps off a ledge, in a suicide attempt. Yet she survives, do you accuse this mentally ill girl of murder?

The baby should not suffer any of the consequences, as it's not at fault. Mentally ill or not, this is another life she has almost ended as well as her own.

In my perspective, if this mentally ill girl was at the extreme end of being psychologically messed up she would need serious care and for someone to supervise and look after her because she's a danger to herself and the baby as well.

[Rutherford The Brave]

The baby should not suffer any of the consequences, as it's not at fault. Mentally ill or not, this is another life she has almost ended as well as her own.

In my perspective, if this mentally ill girl was at the extreme end of being psychologically messed up she would need serious care and for someone to supervise and look after her because she's a danger to herself and the baby as well.

Very well, Is it murder or not?

[The Batman]

There's a woman now who's pregnant and she's drinking, smoking, and most likely doing drugs. I would be more comfortable with her getting an abortion so that the child wouldn't have to be born with a horrible affliction or have a miscarriage or still birth happening because she really is an unfit mother.

[Triceratops]

Very well, Is it murder or not?

I have strong religious beliefs towards abortion and I view abortion overall as murder, I know this does sound harsh.

There's a woman now who's pregnant and she's drinking, smoking, and most likely doing drugs. I would be more comfortable with her getting an abortion so that the child wouldn't have to be born with a horrible affliction or have a miscarriage or still birth happening because she really is an unfit mother.

I still think it's wrong to go through with abortion. As soon as she gives birth to the child she deserves to have all custody of it taken away from her as she's clearly not in the responsible state to look after the child.

I can honestly understand all cases as to why the woman would want or feel the need to abort their child for the better, but at the end of the day abortion is simply killing the child which I don't agree with.

[Rutherford The Brave]

Here's the thing, most likely she wouldn't get convicted of murder. She'd be in trouble for trying to commit suicide but not for murder. She probably be institutionalized. It's a very difficult thing to debate but if everyone started getting in this situation we'd have an issue. I'm just saying that, women who are raped and such cannot handle the mental anquish that she in the hypothetical situation would have to deal with for 9 months had she not tried to kill herself. She'd never get better, knowing that she put herself through so much for one child. I'm saying it would be easier for the family and her to get rid of the baby. Than to let her suffer, see her nearly kill herself then pay for her to get institutionalized and taken care of.

[Sapphire]

I still think it's wrong to go through with abortion. As soon as she gives birth to the child she deserves to have all custody of it taken away from her as she's clearly not in the responsible state to look after the child.
So you would rather see a child brought into this world with fetal alcohol syndrome and already addicted to hard drugs like heroin?

[Sage]

Whether you define it as murder or not, murder laws are in place because if you can just kill anybody, society cannot function. The loss of someone who does not yet have a place in society, however, doesn't make the world stop turning, and so regardless of your definition of abortion- I feel it should be a legal option. You can say murder is morally wrong, sure, but from a legal standpoint (And we are under the rule of law- not rule of morality.) not always.

Hateful comments in 3, 2...

[Sapphire]

Whether you define it as murder or not, murder laws are in place because if you can just kill anybody, society cannot function. The loss of someone who does not yet have a place in society, however, doesn't make the world stop turning, and so regardless of your definition of abortion- I feel it should be a legal option. You can say murder is morally wrong, sure, but from a legal standpoint (And we are under the rule of law- not rule of morality.) not always.

Hateful comments in 3, 2...If you are to look at this from a legal standpoint then you must have a legal threshold on when life begins.

In the UK, abortions are illegal after a woman has reached the 24th week of pregnancy because that is the point of viability and the threshold for when life is legally deemed to begin. So, it would be murder to carry out an abortion after the fetus is viable outside of the womb, but not before.

[The Batman]

Wouldn't pulling someone off life support be considered murder too since they can't survive off the machine?

[Sapphire]

Wouldn't pulling someone off life support be considered murder too since they can't survive off the machine?
Interesting question.

I don't think it would be murder.
A person has to be very sick or very badly injured to need life support machines to keep them alive and their death would be the ultimate result of their illness and/or injuries rather than the switching off of a machine.

[theOperaGhost]

Wouldn't pulling someone off life support be considered murder too since they can't survive off the machine?

That is a natural death. The machine is aiding in keeping them alive, therefore, without the machine, they would die naturally.

[quartermaster]

So a rape victim should be forced to give birth and have a baby?

Assuming that upon conception the embryo is life, one must ask, how much do they value life? Is forcing a woman to have a baby that she did not consent to have really more malicious than killing a baby?

So she jumps off a ledge, in a suicide attempt. Yet she survives, do you accuse this mentally ill girl of murder?

If a woman jumps off a ledge, in a suicide attempt, with her baby in hand, and she survives but the baby dies, what is that considered? If one believes that the baby in the womb and a baby out of womb are both the same, it would, by definition, be handled the same way by law enforcement. Really, given the anti-abortion axiom, your scenario is a false dichotomy.

So you would rather see a child brought into this world with fetal alcohol syndrome and already addicted to hard drugs like heroin?

Ah, but that is falling into the “moral” trap of weighing life and basing life off of statistics. You must first ask yourself, assuming that a baby in the womb and a baby outside of the womb are the same, is it moral to kill either because they have a disease or have an addiction? Is it really any better to tell a baby that due to its affliction it does not have the right to live? If we are going to weigh life, how do we, ultimately weigh what gives someone the right to live?

Second, assuming the pro-life axiom is true, is it moral or just to base life off of statistics? The baby is more likely to have a disease, thus we will kill it; having such a disease is not a forgone conclusion, thus you could be killing a perfectly healthy baby. That is, of course, assuming that it is just to kill a diseased baby; we can take a baby’s life, because it is sick and unhealthy. Assuming that an embryo and a baby are the same, what right do we have to deprive that baby of life?

If we are going to pose such entrapping questions, as many of you have done, you must also pose the questioning of the morality of the entire issue. If we are going to accept certain truths, even for the interest of debate, we must accept that truth for all cases.

Of course, if you believe the rule of law is more important, like Deschain does (I must admit though, Deschain's views are extremely erratic, given the views on the death penalty), it could be turned around, and I could argue abortion is a property right. Babies, like adults, have the right, by law, to their life and body, and thus abortion, assuming we all accept the anti-abortion axiom of what defines life, is a usurpation of property rights.

In the end, as a poster stated previously, it is all down to where you believe life actually starts. As I have proven, one’s idea of morality is easily subsisted by another’s moral view, and the rule of law is equally as inadequate, if we all do not accept a warrant on where life begins.

EDIT:
That is a natural death. The machine is aiding in keeping them alive, therefore, without the machine, they would die naturally.

That is sketchy, one could argue that removing the embryo/fetus from the womb (without destroying it) is natural death, as neither can survive without the mother's assistance.

[Sage]

Of course, if you believe the rule of law is more important, like Deschain does (I must admit though, Deschain's views are extremely erratic, given the views on the death penalty),

This is a bit topic, but if it makes my views seem clearer and more consistent, the main reason I oppose the death panel is that it gives the government the power and authority to decide who lives and who dies. Not too big on the moral argument myself, as I do feel we'd be better off without some people in the world... Though I'd rather anyone but the government deal with them.

[Triceratops]

So you would rather see a child brought into this world with fetal alcohol syndrome and already addicted to hard drugs like heroin?

The child shouldn't be aborted due to the mother's irresponsible ways. It's not right to abort the child just because it's suffering from a condition.

The most likely chances are that the child will be born with a condition, but there is the possibility that it may turn out perfectly fine - which would result in the killing of a normal and healthy child.

[theOperaGhost]

That is sketchy, one could argue that removing the embryo/fetus from the womb (without destroying it) is natural death, as neither can survive without the mother's assistance.

Removing an embryo/fetus from the womb without destroying it IS a natural death and therefore NOT murder IF there is NO intent on killing it.

[Rutherford The Brave]

Let me just ask christians something, is abortion an arguement of faith or an arguement of the hierarchy of the church.

[quartermaster]

Removing an embryo/fetus from the womb without destroying it IS a natural death and therefore NOT murder IF there is NO intent on killing it.

Again, one could argue that taking someone off of life support, just like taking an embryo/fetus outside the body, is done with the intent of letting them die. Neither may have the intent of murder, but to be sure, when doing such actions, there is the assumption of inherent death; in that sense, there is no variable difference between the intent to kill and the action of allowing for said, "natural death."

EDIT:

Let me just ask christians something, is abortion an arguement of faith or an arguement of the hierarchy of the church.

First define "hierarchy of the church," second, the answer to your question should be, given the assumption that Christians follow the bible (which many do not), would be that it is an argument of faith.

[Rutherford The Brave]

Again, one could argue that taking someone off of life support, just like taking an embryo/fetus outside the body, is done with the intent of letting them die. Neither may have the intent of murder, but to be sure, when doing such actions, there is the assumption of inherent death; in that sense, there is no variable difference between the intent to kill and the action of allowing for said, "natural death."

EDIT:



First define "hierarchy of the church," second, the answer to your question should be, given the assumption that Christians follow the bible (which many do not), would be that it is an argument of faith.

Like the vatican, the bishops, the cardinals, and the pope. You don't have the correct answer though. Some christians don't care about abortion. So you really can't say that. I mean not all christians follow the bible word for word.

[quartermaster]

Like the vatican, the bishops, the cardinals, and the pope. You don't have the correct answer though. Some christians don't care about abortion. So you really can't say that. I mean not all christians follow the bible word for word.

The Vatican, the bishops and the pope are not analogous as Christian leaders, they are Catholic, which does not denote all Christians.

No my friend, I am afraid you are incorrect, you seem to be under a guise and do not actually understand what I said. I have the right answer because true Christians, people who claim to be followers of Christ, could not, given the bible, agree to abortion, morally. The bible and the destruction of innocent human life (given the New Testament) are disjoint; there are many individuals who call themselves Christians, but their actions speak to that being incorrect.

So I can say, given the bible, that abortion is a disjoint idea, given Christianity. There are many people who call themselves Christians, but there are few actually follow the morals and teachings of Christ. There are many misconceptions and misquotes that the Evangelic Christians spread to increase the base of their churches, never mix that up with true biblical teachings.

[The Batman]

No my friend, I am afraid you are incorrect, you seem to be under a guise and do not actually understand what I said. I have the right answer because true Christians, people who claim to be followers of Christ, could not, given the bible, agree to abortion, morally. The bible and the destruction of innocent human life (given the New Testament) are disjoint; there are many individuals who call themselves Christians, but their actions speak to that being incorrect.

So I can say, given the bible, that abortion is a disjoint idea, given Christianity. There are many people who call themselves Christians, but there are few actually follow the morals and teachings of Christ. There are many misconceptions and misquotes that the Evangelic Christians spread to increase the base of their churches, never mix that up with true biblical teachings.

That's only if you believe life starts at conception which I don't believe.

[theOperaGhost]

Let me just ask christians something, is abortion an arguement of faith or an arguement of the hierarchy of the church.

Christians aren't the only people in this world who think abortion is wrong. I myself am not christian and I feel abortion is immoral.

[MarcMan906]

There are a lot of ways you can take this topic in perspective. You can say; why in the hell would you take an innocent life away because you were to stupid to wear protection? Or you can say; the kids are young and they're stupid and can't financially support the baby and should have an abortion.

[Sage]

There are a lot of ways you can take this topic in perspective. You can say; why in the hell would you take an innocent life away because you were to stupid to wear protection? Or you can say; the kids are young and they're stupid and can't financially support the baby and should have an abortion.

I love how both your examples blame the "stupid" parents.

[quartermaster]

That's only if you believe life starts at conception which I don't believe.

A convenient loophole, to be sure, though I doubt, given the Christian milieu and the teachings of the bible, that such a loophole actually exists. I am sure, assuming that one believes the bible and believes the message of Christ to be true, it would be quite difficult to justify infanticide upon “God’s judgment,” no matter how the process is defined by humans. Again, that is, of course, if one holds certain truths and agrees upon certain biblical warrants. However, it is not my goal to get involved in religious discussions, as it is not the nature of this thread.

[JasonClark]

I'm catholic, and pro choice.

A baby can potentially ruin a teeangers childhood, and god knows many teenagers who have chosen to keep their child have ended up in shit conditions. But on the other hand many have led full lives, never regretting their choice of keeping it.

I also believe that anyone that believes that abortion should just be ilegal are hipocrits and should review the situation first.

[sweetmisery]

It's a womens decision. It isn't a matter of right or wrong. Honestly, we shouldn't be debating about this because abortion is personal. I'm pro choice as well - and that's probably why I say this, but I think anyone can agree it's the womens choice whether they want to abort the baby or not. Isn't there an amount of months that the women has before they CAN'T abort the baby? (Like after 1-2 months)

On the other hand:

And given that...a baby is not fully a developed "baby" until about 5 weeks later (i'm just rounding a little) when it's heart starts beating and the brain isn't fully developed until conceived. (The baby has normal brain waves between 6 and 8 weeks into the pregnancy, yet it is still not developed.) My point is that it is a womens choice, in whatever situation they find themselves in. Rape, Mistake, etc...It's still a womens choice.

[2D]

Abortion sends babies to God faster.

[Sapphire]

Abortion sends babies to God faster.
Only if you believe in God...

[2D]

Only if you believe in God...

Lets say that someone doesn't believe in gravity. Gravity doesn't stop affecting that person does it?

[Sapphire]

Lets say that someone doesn't believe in gravity. Gravity doesn't stop affecting that person does it?
The likelihood that gravity exists is greater than the likelihood that God exists...it also has more evidence to back it up.

[2D]

The likelihood that gravity exists is greater than the likelihood that God exists...it also has more evidence to back it up.

You can't see gravity, you can't touch gravity, you can't smell or hear it. The same goes with God. You just have faith that it exists.

[Sage]

You can't see gravity, you can't touch gravity, you can't smell or hear it. The same goes with God. You just have faith that it exists.

You can test the presence of gravity in a number of ways that cannot be dismissed.

[theOperaGhost]

You can test the presence of gravity in a number of ways that cannot be dismissed.

You can perceive it, just like some people can perceive the presence of God.

[INFERNO]

You can perceive it, just like some people can perceive the presence of God.

Anyone can perceive anything but if you can objectively test its presence in a way that can be duplicated and if you have some explanations with it, then you have more than mere perception to rely on. With the presence of god, you do have the perception of it and you may also have some explanations surrounding it, however, you cannot objectively test its presence in a way that can be duplicated. Hence, you don't have any reliability nor validity, you just have what you perceive as biased, subjective evidence. Big difference with that and gravity.

[Sapphire]

You can't see gravity, you can't touch gravity, you can't smell or hear it. The same goes with God. You just have faith that it exists.They are very different since one is falsifiable and the other isn't.

Anyone can perceive anything but if you can objectively test its presence in a way that can be duplicated and if you have some explanations with it, then you have more than mere perception to rely on. With the presence of god, you do have the perception of it and you may also have some explanations surrounding it, however, you cannot objectively test its presence in a way that can be duplicated. Hence, you don't have any reliability nor validity, you just have what you perceive as biased, subjective evidence. Big difference with that and gravity.
Exactly!

[2D]

Okay my gravity analogy was poor but hey. You can't prove anything about God sooo neh.

I'm still gonna say it though. Abortion sends babies to God faster. So I say, abort away.

[Rutherford The Brave]

They are very different since one is falsifiable and the other isn't.

I'm on the fence when someone says this. Gravity you can feel yes, and its definatly here. Yet say that a god is false is something you can't exactly say. I mean I wish I could say it honestly, but without knowledge thats like pointing into a crowd of cows and saying that one of them is going to be blue. Its a nuisance and it makes this arguement, very difficult.

[Sapphire]

I'm on the fence when someone says this. Gravity you can feel yes, and its definatly here. Yet say that a god is false is something you can't exactly say. I mean I wish I could say it honestly, but without knowledge thats like pointing into a crowd of cows and saying that one of them is going to be blue. Its a nuisance and it makes this arguement, very difficult.You misunderstand.
In science, there is no fact - only theory waiting to be disproved (falsified) and so they need to be testable (falsifiable).
Gravity can be tested objectively and scientifically so faith isn't a large component of accepting it at all.
The existence of a god can't be tested objectively and scientifically so faith is a huge component of believing in it.
That is how they are so very different.

[Rutherford The Brave]

You misunderstand.
In science, there is no fact - only theory waiting to be disproved (falsified) and so they need to be testable (falsifiable).
Gravity can be tested objectively and scientifically so faith isn't a large component of accepting it at all.
The existence of a god can't be tested objectively and scientifically so faith is a huge component of believing in it.
That is how they are so very different.

I'm sorry I misinterpreted the difference. I understand now and I agree.

[INFERNO]

Okay my gravity analogy was poor but hey. You can't prove anything about God sooo neh.

You cant truly prove anything within science sooo neh.


I'm still gonna say it though. Abortion sends babies to God faster. So I say, abort away.

Hold on, so if you say that one should abort a fetus because it brings the fetus to god faster, I assume you're making the assumption that a fetus is a living thing and so aborting it would be along the lines of killing or murdering it. If that's the case, then why not say that we should gun down random adults because they'll go to god faster also. In all likelihood though, if you are the one doing the aborting or gunning down, you're likely to go to hell, which unless you're a masochist, doesn't seem like a nice idea. So what is the purpose of supporting abortion because more fetuses go to god if that jepordizes your chances of going to god also? The only two conclusions I see that are likely are you engaging in self-sacrificing actions or I've misunderstood you.

[2D]

I'm just stating that abortion does indeed send them to God faster. I'm not for or against it. It's a win win situation for me. If a baby is aborted then it goes to God. If it isn't, then it's born and could possibly change the world. Do you see now?

I do realize that saying "abort away" was really idiotic now and made it seem like I'm for abortion. *facepalm* I'm just looking on the bright side of both possible outcomes.

Not to sound stuck up or anything but seeing as I am not the one doing the aborting or killing there is no blood on my hands.

[MisterMonster]

i believe it's always the mothers descision. It's something she brought into this world and something she can take out if she wants to. If the mother is a slut or a rape victim or a broken condom victim, then she has every right to abort that baby. I'm pro-choice in almost all cases.

[DecemberRain]

In my opinion, I think its really wrong to abort. There are certain conditions where I think it is ok. I think if a woman was raped that she should be able to abort if she chose to. I would like to think that I would not abort if I was raped and ended up pregnant...but obviously my thoughts could change if I was put in that situation. I believe that if your not responsible and out there not using protection that you shouldn't be able to abort. But idk...that's just my opinion:P

[Sage]

I believe that if your not responsible and out there not using protection that you shouldn't be able to abort. But idk...that's just my opinion:P

So if someone did use protection and gets pregnant anyway, are they allowed to abort?

And if so, then don't you find it quite stupid to try and legislate responsibility? If a couple really wanted to get an abortion, then they'd just say they used protection and that it failed.

And if not, then you're still trying to legislate responsibility and telling people not to have sex unless they want kids. Lo and behold, people are still gonna have sex and still not gonna want to have kids- But they can't prevent the kids from being born, so you'll have a society with a ton of people having a ton of kids that nobody really wants. Adoption agencies will get packed and with due time there won't be enough people who want to adopt.

Does it suck that we have to prevent some people from being born? Sure. Is it necessary for a society of our size to remain somewhat stable? Yes.

[kenoloor]

Does it suck that we have to prevent some people from being born? Sure. Is it necessary for a society of our size to remain somewhat stable? Yes.

Following this line of thought, we would only abort sometimes . So who will judge who gets an abortion and who doesn't in order to keep our society 'stable'?

[Becky]

Lets say that someone doesn't believe in gravity. Gravity doesn't stop affecting that person does it?

Yes but there is proof of gravity or else we would all be floating around
Anyway... I don't think that abortion is just used as somepeople here have said Selfish stupid parents who couldn't be bothered to use protection you do realise sometimes protection doesn't work but still I would never have an abortion and that is just my choice but I feel that other women should be able to choose whether they have an abortion or not it's their life but they should be well informed of what's going to happen mentally as well as physically. I do think though if a woman is trying to use abortion as another method of contraception this is wrong Don't want to use condoms? Take the pill think you'll forget? Take morning after pill do't trust it get an IUD or and implant I mean for god sake it's not as if we're in an age where we don't no how to deal with these things.

[Sage]

Following this line of thought, we would only abort sometimes . So who will judge who gets an abortion and who doesn't in order to keep our society 'stable'?

What is it with you people and semantics? Goddamn. If a woman wants an abortion, give her the fucking abortion. Her sex life and "responsibility" in the matter of getting pregnant aren't your business, so stay out of it.

[quartermaster]

What is it with you people and semantics? Goddamn. If a woman wants an abortion, give her the fucking abortion. Her sex life and "responsibility" in the matter of getting pregnant aren't your business, so stay out of it.

Is murder my business, or is that just a private matter as well?

You are correct, her sex life is not my business, nor the business of the state, but if I believe it is murder, it is not as simple as "[h]er sex life and 'responsibility.'" That is why, ultimately, the argument that it is no one's business, fails, as when the matter of life and death is involved, it becomes a bit more...delicate.

[Jenna.]

I'm pro choice. Its the woman's body, if she doesn't want to have a kid, then she shouldn't be stuck with one. Even if you use protection, it can fail. In that case, you should have an abortion if you want one. I know for a fact that if I got pregnant right now, my first choice would be an abortion. And I also don't want children so someday if I got pregnant (even when I'm married), I would get an abortion. You can think whatever you want about me but its my body and its my choice. You're not going to change my mind.

[TheKingDavis]

I'm pro choice. Its the woman's body, if she doesn't want to have a kid, then she shouldn't be stuck with one. Even if you use protection, it can fail. In that case, you should have an abortion if you want one. I know for a fact that if I got pregnant right now, my first choice would be an abortion. And I also don't want children so someday if I got pregnant (even when I'm married), I would get an abortion. You can think whatever you want about me but its my body and its my choice. You're not going to change my mind.

Neither Male nor Female should be having sexual intercourse unless they are fully ready to accept the responsibility of raising a child

[The Batman]

But if they do get pregnant it's not our place to tell the mother if she should give birth or not.

[Rutherford The Brave]

Neither Male nor Female should be having sexual intercourse unless they are fully ready to accept the responsibility of raising a child

Not entirely. I mean we have birth control, contraceptives and condoms. Male nor Female should be having sex until they are emotionally ready and are mature enough to think and then use the things that will keep them from getting pregnant. The way you put it, you make it seem like people have sex just for creating kids.

[Techno Monster]

Personally I think that abortion should be kept legal, things happen.
Say you were to get raped and become pregnant? The child would be resented its whole life, and may even be brought into a situation in which proper care could not be given. I know in this situation adoption is still an option, but it can't be emotionally healthy to carry the evidence from an act of rape for 9 months.
Or what if tests were done during pregnancy and the child was found to have an illness that would severely cripple the quality of its life?
If you could prevent it, would you choose not to bring a child with a severe genetic illness into this world? If it means the child would suffer its whole life?
I would have to say no.
Then again there are people who get an abortion because they simply don't want to have a child, I feel that this is a personal choice and that it has nothing to do with laws or anything else.
I mean, think about it, in the 1800's-1970's when abortion was illegal, "back ally clinics" existed, these were places were people went and aborted fetuses using barbaric, unsanitary, homemade machines that were sometimes deadly to women.
(From http://www.prochoice.org)
The prohibition of legal abortion from the 1880s until 1973 came under the same anti-obscenity or Comstock laws that prohibited the dissemination of birth control information and services.

Criminalization of abortion did not reduce the numbers of women who sought abortions. In the years before Roe v. Wade, the estimates of illegal abortions ranged as high as 1.2 million per year.1 Although accurate records could not be kept, it is known that between the 1880s and 1973, many thousands of women were harmed as a result of illegal abortion.

Many women died or suffered serious medical problems after attempting to self-induce their abortions or going to untrained practitioners who performed abortions with primitive methods or in unsanitary conditions. During this time, hospital emergency room staff treated thousands of women who either died or were suffering terrible effects of abortions provided without adequate skill and care.

Some women were able to obtain relatively safer, although still illegal, abortions from private doctors. This practice remained prevalent for the first half of the twentieth century. The rate of reported abortions then began to decline, partly because doctors faced increased scrutiny from their peers and hospital administrators concerned about the legality of their operations.
In my honest opinion, the law is fine the way it is, there is no other way to really handle situations like this without repeating history or bringing ill or resented children into the world.

[Jenna.]

Not entirely. I mean we have birth control, contraceptives and condoms. Male nor Female should be having sex until they are emotionally ready and are mature enough to think and then use the things that will keep them from getting pregnant. The way you put it, you make it seem like people have sex just for creating kids.

Exactly, and when my boyfriend and I have sex (sorry if its personal but I'm trying to make a point) we're very responsible about it - he uses condoms and I'm on the pill but what if something would happen? I don't want a kid at 16. I wouldn't want to go through pregnancy and get way behind on my schoolwork and such, so for me, abortion would be a first choice. I would never be one of those people who would use it as a "birth control method" or whatever, but IF something would go wrong and the birth control methods would fail, ..well honestly..I tried to prevent the pregnancy and that's when abortion would come in for me.

[Triceratops]

Neither Male nor Female should be having sexual intercourse unless they are fully ready to accept the responsibility of raising a child

You should only be having sexual intercourse if you are emotionally and physically mature enough to be engaging in such activities. The people involved should already be aware of the precautions, responsibilities and potential outcomes before they consider to partake in any given sexual activity.

I have a problem with the whole concept of only having sex if you're ready to produce an offspring; people don't just engage in sexual activities because they want children, it's quite unfair to prevent people from having sex unless they want a child.

You can't take away someone's right to have sexual intercourse, because a perfectly responsible and conscientious couple may wish to have sex; perhaps to express their love and commitment for one another, or for their own pleasure - which there is nothing wrong with that at all.

Some couples may be physically and psychologically ready to have sex, but the acceptance of raising a child is another matter. Although, coming from my own pro-life standpoint, abortion is something which shouldn't be resorted to; if the woman accidently fell pregnant, she could decide whether she and her partner wish to raise the child themselves or put it up for adoption in order for another caring family to take on the responsibilities and duties that entail with bringing up a child.

[Angster]

Mmmmmmm, my favourite topic, avortement.

Yes, it's very right. Especially in teen pregnancies, if you're that stupid to not use a contraceptive, you shouldn't be taking care of a child. Sometimes it's in the best interest of a child for them not to live their life when it could have been awful in certain conditions. There's also thousands of children up for adoption, we don't need more.

Plus, their only exterminated at the first Trimester, they're hardly alive.

[Rutherford The Brave]

Mmmmmmm, my favourite topic, avortement.

Yes, it's very right. Especially in teen pregnancies, if you're that stupid to not use a contraceptive, you shouldn't be taking care of a child. Sometimes it's in the best interest of a child for them not to live their life when it could have been awful in certain conditions. There's also thousands of children up for adoption, we don't need more.

Plus, their only exterminated at the first Trimester, they're hardly alive.

ohhohohohoho Watch what you say. Also, what if you use contraceptives and they do not work or they break? You can't rule out those situations, I know for a fact that it can happen.

[ThatDude93]

I'll just say it, I am pro-life, I'll probably get bashed but anyway...:)

[Triceratops]

I'll just say it, I am pro-life, I'll probably get bashed but anyway...:)

Great argument, care to elaborate and justify your reasoning further?

Well, I'm pro-life as well - you won't get bashed for having a valid opinion.

[luciia96]

I think it's right, but ppl should b careful if they dont want a baby.

[mrmcdonaldduck]

if a teenage girl that has no way to support the child, or a child that will be born into an abusive home is the only way that i think abortion is right.

If its just some stupid woman that just doesnt want a kid or something like that, then abortion is disgusting. The woman should have used the pill, or made sure that her partner was using protection.

[ThatDude93]

Great argument, care to elaborate and justify your reasoning further?

Well, I'm pro-life as well - you won't get bashed for having a valid opinion.

No one asked me to justify me reasoning. I was waiting for someone to ask.

I just believe it is killing an innocent life. And there is always adoption. I myself was almost aborted, but instead I was put up for adoption and here I am today.

A lot of people say that when they kill it, it is barely alive, which is true...but even you said it...it is still ALIVE. You are still killing an innocent living creature just because you don't want it. Even after you "did it" to create the thing in the first place.

If you can't tell I am also religious, so...any more questions?

Oh and about situations like rapes, like I said there is always adoption, where the parent doesn't have to raise the kid when they can't.

[Triceratops]

No one asked me to justify me reasoning. I was waiting for someone to ask.

I just believe it is killing an innocent life. And there is always adoption. I myself was almost aborted, but instead I was put up for adoption and here I am today.

A lot of people say that when they kill it, it is barely alive, which is true...but even you said it...it is still ALIVE. You are still killing an innocent living creature just because you don't want it. Even after you "did it" to create the thing in the first place.

If you can't tell I am also religious, so...any more questions?

Oh and about situations like rapes, like I said there is always adoption, where the parent doesn't have to raise the kid when they can't.

This is a debate forum - of course you provide justifications to your reasons.

On the other hand, I completely agree with you. :)

[Sapphire]

Oh and about situations like rapes, like I said there is always adoption, where the parent doesn't have to raise the kid when they can't.
What if carrying it to term is too much for the woman to handle?
What if the rape was carried out by her father/grandfather?

[ThatDude93]

What if carrying it to term is too much for the woman to handle?
What if the rape was carried out by her father/grandfather?

I am guessing your first question is relating to the pregnancy causing harm to the woman?

That is the only time when I believe abortion might be ok...but I still hate the concept.

In the case of incest, the baby still has a right to live.

[Rutherford The Brave]

I am guessing your first question is relating to the pregnancy causing harm to the woman?

That is the only time when I believe abortion might be ok...but I still hate the concept.

In the case of incest, the baby still has a right to live.

What is wrong with you? So you'd rather make a woman suffer through being raped by her own father, and then give birth to his child. Who is more than likely to come out with some deformity and possibly live a bad life? Are you really saying that? That a child is better off suffering, knowing that his grandfather is his father and that he will have to live his life knowing that?

[ThatDude93]

Nothing is wrong with me...yes there is a chance the child may have a deformity or mental issues or such....but...they should still live

Call me messed up, but I believe that life is something that should be valued...even with disabilities.

If you just want to cuss me out or call me screwed up, go ahead, or you can message me and we can talk about these views. Who knows you might change my views.

From the point of incest and when it might cause harm to the woman...those are situations when I would probably say I am pro-choice when it all came down to it...but i still hate the concept of abortion

[Raptor22]

I do not believe in abortion and it is wrong I base this on religious and moral grounds. Anything beyond a morning after pill is wrong...

[Rutherford The Brave]

I am a strong right activist. I am a liberal, I believe in rights for everyone. It's a women's body, if she chooses to rid herself of a child then so be it. She shouldn't be stopped just because you christians and you others find it morally wrong. No lets say you were a transexual and you wanted to change your genders. You wouldn't be happy if someone was telling you, you cannot be who you feel you truly are. Thats what its like that take this option away, you are basically shackling the baby to the mother. A mother who I might add, is not emotionally, physically and financially ready to handle the task of a child.

[ThatDude93]

I do not believe in abortion and it is wrong I base this on religious and moral grounds. Anything beyond a morning after pill is wrong...

:) I agree

I am a strong right activist. I am a liberal, I believe in rights for everyone. It's a women's body, if she chooses to rid herself of a child then so be it. She shouldn't be stopped just because you christians and you others find it morally wrong. No lets say you were a transexual and you wanted to change your genders. You wouldn't be happy if someone was telling you, you cannot be who you feel you truly are. Thats what its like that take this option away, you are basically shackling the baby to the mother. A mother who I might add, is not emotionally, physically and financially ready to handle the task of a child.

We are not forcing non-ready parents to take care of kids. A belief can;t force anybody to do anything. But even if abortion was totally illegal, there is a little thing called ADOPTION buddy...I was adopted...almost aborted...and here I am today...

I am happy, healthy, and loving life.

[Rutherford The Brave]

:) I agree



We are not forcing non-ready parents to take care of kids. A belief can;t force anybody to do anything. But even if abortion was totally illegal, there is a little thing called ADOPTION buddy...I was adopted...almost aborted...and here I am today...

I am happy, healthy, and loving life.

Lucky you "Buddy" because some other kids aren't as lucky as you. So maybe you should think a little bit about how this effects people. Like you said earlier if a kid was a result of incest and he was put up for adoption. How the hell do you think it would feel? He/she must feel like the worst, knowing that he is the offspring of rape, and no one gives a damn about him.

[The Batman]

Adoption may be an option but really people aren't just aborting because they don't want to raise a kid, they usually don't even want to give birth to the child so forcing someone through it is pretty much stupid. If someone doesn't want a baby we can't force them to give birth to one it's morally wrong to force someone to do it because you don't like it.

[ThatDude93]

Lucky you "Buddy" because some other kids aren't as lucky as you. So maybe you should think a little bit about how this effects people. Like you said earlier if a kid was a result of incest and he was put up for adoption. How the hell do you think it would feel? He/she must feel like the worst, knowing that he is the offspring of rape, and no one gives a damn about him.

Oh I love your sarcasm :)

I know some people aren't as lucky as me. But they still don't deserve to DIE!

And about the kid from a incestuous rape(or just a relationship),they wouldn't feel too good, but life is a blessing, it is a gift. Just because someone didn't come about from a good normal relationship, or because they have a disability, you would just rather off they die?

And you say I'm crazy, your the one denying life to people.

I don't know if it is New Years where you are yet or not...but Happy New Year none the less .


Adoption may be an option but really people aren't just aborting because they don't want to raise a kid, they usually don't even want to give birth to the child so forcing someone through it is pretty much stupid. If someone doesn't want a baby we can't force them to give birth to one it's morally wrong to force someone to do it because you don't like it.

Well, I said it earlier, in a rape situation, I would reluctantly say I'm pro-choice, despite the fact I definitely believe abortion is wrong. And if they made the baby normally, and they don't want to give birth to it. Well, they are stuck with it...they did the work knowing it could happen.

[Rutherford The Brave]

Oh I love your sarcasm :)

I know some people aren't as lucky as me. But they still don't deserve to DIE!

And about the kid from a incestuous rape(or just a relationship),they wouldn't feel too good, but life is a blessing, it is a gift. Just because someone didn't come about from a good normal relationship, or because they have a disability, you would just rather off they die?

And you say I'm crazy, your the one denying life to people.

I don't know if it is New Years where you are yet or not...but Happy New Year none the less .

I'm denying life to No one. It's a womens body and she has every right to do with it, as she pleases. If we take away that right of hers, its as if we are saying once again that women are less then men. Even though women go through alot more than we do, and without them their would be no us.

[ThatDude93]

Well, just to me, it seems like by being pro-choice as strongly as you are. You ok, with the denying of life. I understand what you mean though. As far as the whole women equal to men thing. But I think that morals goes above what men and women just think. I believe morals are important. I see it immoral to deny life. That is what I am getting at here.

[The Batman]

By denying life you have to believe that life starts at conception which I don't, I believe that life starts when the fetus is viable outside the womb because at conception it's just a bunch of stem cells.

[Rutherford The Brave]

Well, just to me, it seems like by being pro-choice as strongly as you are. You ok, with the denying of life. I understand what you mean though. As far as the whole women equal to men thing. But I think that morals goes above what men and women just think. I believe morals are important. I see it immoral to deny life. That is what I am getting at here.

What I am getting at is how immoral it is to take away one RIGHTS, SEE WHAT IM GETTING AT. I'm getting at, that Women fought hard for their rights, and your basically saying. The life of a child, that is a burden on the women is more important than the women. Who eventually will create a child that will be raised properly, and will live a good life. If we make abortions illegal, there will be many unwanted children, poor children, children with nothing. IS THAT WHAT YOU WANT? We already have enough kids living in homes and on the street. I find it immoral that you can condone such an action. I may condone the taking of life, but you are condoning the destruction of lives and possibly death.

[ThatDude93]

What I am getting at is how immoral it is to take away one RIGHTS, SEE WHAT IM GETTING AT. I'm getting at, that Women fought hard for their rights, and your basically saying. The life of a child, that is a burden on the women is more important than the women. Who eventually will create a child that will be raised properly, and will live a good life. If we make abortions illegal, there will be many unwanted children, poor children, children with nothing. IS THAT WHAT YOU WANT? We already have enough kids living in homes and on the street. I find it immoral that you can condone such an action. I may condone the taking of life, but you are condoning the destruction of lives and possibly death.

I understand what you are saying. We just have differing views. With abortion you see less homeless kids. With abortion I see mass murder being legal. It is just are differing views man. I also don't see how I am condoning destruction of lives or death? Please explain that to me. :)

By the way, I hope I haven't upset you. I am enjoying this, I like to debate.

[Rutherford The Brave]

A mother who was brutally raped, and beaten doesn't want to give birth to a child that was put in her without her conscent. That is destruction of life. Also a child stuck in a home, who will probably never know their family. Due to them being the result of an unwanted pregnancy. Will always seek answers, he/she will never know their true parents. They will suffer so much pain. Ultimatly these homeless children can and will die. They will die with their prayers, unaswered. Their hopes crushed. I'd like you tell a child that has gone through that, that abortion is immoral. They would tell you, that they hope you suffer as much as they have.

[ThatDude93]

A mother who was brutally raped, and beaten doesn't want to give birth to a child that was put in her without her conscent. That is destruction of life. Also a child stuck in a home, who will probably never know their family. Due to them being the result of an unwanted pregnancy. Will always seek answers, he/she will never know their true parents. They will suffer so much pain. Ultimatly these homeless children can and will die. They will die with their prayers, unaswered. Their hopes crushed. I'd like you tell a child that has gone through that, that abortion is immoral. They would tell you, that they hope you suffer as much as they have.

I have said it like 3 times now haha...in a rape situation...I will say pro-choice...


And tell me how the kid is gonna die in a home? and plus, i seriously doubt every child in an orphan or foster home wishes thy were dead. Besides I understand they have gone through a lot of suffering. Stuff that I have been blessed and not had to go through. But wishing you are dead is very very dumb. I understand that some of them are like that , but I know for a fact not every id is like that. I am sure that they are happy that they are at least alive.

[Raptor22]

I have said it like 3 times now haha...in a rape situation...I will say pro-choice...


And tell me how the kid is gonna die in a home? and plus, i seriously doubt every child in an orphan or foster home wishes thy were dead. Besides I understand they have gone through a lot of suffering. Stuff that I have been blessed and not had to go through. But wishing you are dead is very very dumb. I understand that some of them are like that , but I know for a fact not every id is like that. I am sure that they are happy that they are at least alive.

God has intentions for every single soul he sends to this earth, and to abort that gets in the way of the grand plan. Every conception is a unique personality that will grow and live to be somebody. What if we aborted the guy or girl who was gonna grow up to cure AIDS or Cancer, or the person who was sent to make world peace? It could be anything, everyone deserves to live, everyone is here for a reason. Humanity has no right to trample upon a helpless infants right to live.

[The Batman]

The thing about bringing a religion in a debate is that everyone has to follow that religion for it to be a valid point. If not then it's as pointless.

[Raptor22]

The thing about bringing a religion in a debate is that everyone has to follow that religion for it to be a valid point. If not then it's as pointless.

Well, its a common thread in all of the Abrahamic religions whose adherents make up 2/3 of the worlds religious population. And my point still stands even without religion, a unique life was created, it can only do harm to destroy it. Hell, just ignore the first sentence of my last post, it all makes sense even without the religious part.

[The Batman]

ok I'll get rid of the first sentenceEvery conception is a unique personality that will grow and live to be somebody. The fetus won't even be able to think or feel pain for the first (can't remember the number) few weeks of pregnancy so I would more call them an empty vessel until then What if we aborted the guy or girl who was gonna grow up to cure AIDS or Cancer, or the person who was sent to make world peace?
What if we aborted the next Hitler or the person that ends up destroying the world? You see that argument right there is pointless because you can not prove what would happen if the fetus was born.
It could be anything, everyone deserves to live, everyone is here for a reason. Humanity has no right to trample upon a helpless infants right to live. The thing is if it's your body and you don't want to give birth to that "helpless infant" who the hell are we to say that to bad you're going to have it anyway? Don't you think that when someone is going through an unwanted pregnancy that they aren't going to take any precautions to help make sure the baby will even live to be born? People will get pregnant and get aborted rather it's legal or not so it's best to have a safe way available than having them do something that could possibly destroy the fetus and kill them self in the process.

[Raptor22]

ok I'll get rid of the first sentence The fetus won't even be able to think or feel pain for the first (can't remember the number) few weeks of pregnancy so I would more call them an empty vessel until then
What if we aborted the next Hitler or the person that ends up destroying the world? You see that argument right there is pointless because you can not prove what would happen if the fetus was born.
The thing is if it's your body and you don't want to give birth to that "helpless infant" who the hell are we to say that to bad you're going to have it anyway? Don't you think that when someone is going through an unwanted pregnancy that they aren't going to take any precautions to help make sure the baby will even live to be born? People will get pregnant and get aborted rather it's legal or not so it's best to have a safe way available than having them do something that could possibly destroy the fetus and kill them self in the process.

Or they could put the kid up for adoption. All life should be at least given a chance.

[Sapphire]

I'm in agreement with Greg here - the rights of the woman to choose what she can do with her body are of the utmost importance in this issue. You can't take those rights away.

[The Batman]

Or they could put the kid up for adoption. All life should be at least given a chance.
If a woman doesn't want to GIVE BIRTH to a child then she should not be forced to do so.

[Raptor22]

If a woman doesn't want to GIVE BIRTH to a child then she should not be forced to do so.

She got knocked up in the first place, use birth control its cheap, use rubbers, they are cheap too, get a fucking morning after pill if the rubber breaks... if you get knocked up it is your fault. You have what three or four days after an accident before the egg is fertilized, thats more than enough time for decision making. There are clinics in my town that give them out for free.

[Sapphire]

She got knocked up in the first place, use birth control its cheap, use rubbers, they are cheap too, get a fucking morning after pill if the rubber breaks... if you get knocked up it is your fault. You have what three or four days after an accident before the egg is fertilized, thats more than enough time for decision making. There are clinics in my town that give them out for free.There are no completely foolproof methods.

Even the morning after pill isn't a guaranteed preventative measure.
If taken within the first 24 hours it is 95% effective. It's also only 85% effective between 25 and 48 hours - this decreases to an effectiveness of 58% if taken between 49 and 72 hours after the woman had sex.

[ThatDude93]

She got knocked up in the first place, use birth control its cheap, use rubbers, they are cheap too, get a fucking morning after pill if the rubber breaks... if you get knocked up it is your fault. You have what three or four days after an accident before the egg is fertilized, thats more than enough time for decision making. There are clinics in my town that give them out for free.

I still agree with you. I have given in a few times in this argument and said pro-choice. But I don't know, I understand about the whole woman's right to choose thing. But I said it before, I think that morals(which come with religion) are above peoples choices, they should affect peoples choices. I am a very religious person. I don't think abortion is right at all. This is never going to end. The same arguments are just going to keep on coming up. No conclusions will be met.

[Sage]

I still agree with you. I have given in a few times in this argument and said pro-choice. But I don't know, I understand about the whole woman's right to choose thing. But I said it before, I think that morals(which come with religion) are above peoples choices, they should affect peoples choices. I am a very religious person. I don't think abortion is right at all. This is never going to end. The same arguments are just going to keep on coming up. No conclusions will be met.

Why should the morals imposed by your religion be legislated into laws that people who do not hold said morals should abide by?

[Rutherford The Brave]

She got knocked up in the first place, use birth control its cheap, use rubbers, they are cheap too, get a fucking morning after pill if the rubber breaks... if you get knocked up it is your fault. You have what three or four days after an accident before the egg is fertilized, thats more than enough time for decision making. There are clinics in my town that give them out for free.

It isnt her fault if she is raped. Now is it? She has no control over the man holding her down and ejaculating in side of her. She has no control over that. I seriously hate people, no offense who say its all about morales. When common morales say, do not take away rights from people. Your morales are severly lacking, I mean seriously. Taking away one's decision for a child that isn't even yours.

[Raptor22]

It isnt her fault if she is raped. Now is it? She has no control over the man holding her down and ejaculating in side of her. She has no control over that. I seriously hate people, no offense who say its all about morales. When common morales say, do not take away rights from people. Your morales are severly lacking, I mean seriously. Taking away one's decision for a child that isn't even yours.

She has almost a week after that happens to take a fucking morning after pill after that happens, im sure the hospital would give her one.

You are taking decision making rights away from a human being and that is wrong, the human shouldnt have been created in the first place, morning after pills people.

[The Batman]

You are taking decision making rights away from a human being and that is wrong, the human shouldnt have been created in the first place, morning after pills people.

Isn't that exactly what you're doing by saying abortion shouldn't be legal?

[Raptor22]

Isn't that exactly what you're doing by saying abortion shouldn't be legal?

No, that person already made their decision to get into the situation where she would need to consider abortion. She decided to have unprotected sex, or put herself in a risky situation, or even more so not get a morning after pill in the 5 days she has after an accident to make that decision, hell she could buy one on the internet and get it to her house before 5 days... :P

She made her decision.

[Sapphire]

She has almost a week after that happens to take a fucking morning after pill after that happens, im sure the hospital would give her one.Actually, she has 3 days (nowhere near a week). And did you not pay attention to this?:Even the morning after pill isn't a guaranteed preventative measure.
If taken within the first 24 hours it is 95% effective. It's also only 85% effective between 25 and 48 hours - this decreases to an effectiveness of 58% if taken between 49 and 72 hours after the woman had sex.

You are taking decision making rights away from a human being and that is wrong, the human shouldnt have been created in the first place, morning after pills people.
How are those with a pro-choice stance taking away human rights?

[Rutherford The Brave]

I'm done reiterating what I have said numerous times. You people fail to see that sometimes after some thing so traumatic as a brutal that they are just going to get up and go straight to the hospital. MOST PEOPLE WOULD BE SO AFRAID TO LEAVE THEIR HOUSE AGAIN. Stop saying that it's so easy to get a morning after, when you have no clue what its like. You obviously do not care about women, women to you. Since you think that abortions should be legel, you think they are tokens. For you to get pregnant and raise your kids. While your doing who knows what! I'm sorry, but for aslong as I live I will fight this stupid arguement. I hate people like you, I honestly do. So ignorant, so blind.

[Raptor22]

Actually, she has 3 days (nowhere near a week). And did you not pay attention to this?:


How are those with a pro-choice stance taking away human rights?

Taking a right to live away from an individual and unique human being, thats why. The womans choice boils down to taking the pill early and not getting in a risky situation. Now the woman has a choice to take birth control, 97-99% effective, and if raped she can take a morning after pill making the chances:

0.001 % chance of pregnancy after a rape if pill taken in 24 hours
0.003 % chance of pregnancy after rape if pill taken between 24-48 hours
0.008 % chance if taken in between 49-72 hours.

Now out of 89,000 rapes in 2008, only 1 pregnancy should have resulted... women have plenty of choice.

[Rutherford The Brave]

Taking a right to live away from an individual and unique human being, thats why. The womans choice boils down to taking the pill early and not getting in a risky situation. Now the woman has a choice to take birth control, 97-99% effective, and if raped she can take a morning after pill making the chances:

0.001 % chance of pregnancy after a rape if pill taken in 24 hours
0.003 % chance of pregnancy after rape if pill taken between 24-48 hours
0.008 % chance if taken in between 49-72 hours.

Now out of 89,000 rapes in 2008, only 1 pregnancy should have resulted... women have plenty of choice.

Too bad many more happen. Because some are not as lucky. So much for your statistics, welcome to reality.

[Sapphire]

Taking a right to live away from an individual and unique human being, thats why. The womans choice boils down to taking the pill early and not getting in a risky situation. Now the woman has a choice to take birth control, 97-99% effective, and if raped she can take a morning after pill making the chances:

0.001 % chance of pregnancy after a rape if pill taken in 24 hours
0.003 % chance of pregnancy after rape if pill taken between 24-48 hours
0.008 % chance if taken in between 49-72 hours.

Now out of 89,000 rapes in 2008, only 1 pregnancy should have resulted... women have plenty of choice.
Actually, the effectiveness is not that high and the average rate of failure of morning after pills in the UK is about 10%.
http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/sex_relationships/facts/morningafterpill.htm

[Raptor22]

Too bad many more happen. Because some are not as lucky. So much for your statistics, welcome to reality.

Actually, the effectiveness is not that high and the average rate of failure of morning after pills in the UK is about 10%.
http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/sex_relationships/facts/morningafterpill.htm

Common sense is a biggie, have a monogamous relationship and dont go to dark places at night alone. You guys both have this idea that its impossible to not get pregnant, all women need to do is think. They have plenty of choice. Hell, if they didnt want kids, get their tubed tied...

[Rutherford The Brave]

Common sense is a biggie, have a monogamous relationship and dont go to dark places at night alone. You guys both have this idea that its impossible to not get pregnant, all women need to do is think. They have plenty of choice. Hell, if they didnt want kids, get their tubed tied...

They have plenty of choice sure, and with that attitude. Yeah they will not be having your kids for sure. One way or another a woman will get pregnant, There is no sure fire way to stop it. If given the choice as well, women wouldn't choose to be raped, so there goes your logic.

[Raptor22]

They have plenty of choice sure, and with that attitude. Yeah they will not be having your kids for sure. One way or another a woman will get pregnant, There is no sure fire way to stop it. If given the choice as well, women wouldn't choose to be raped, so there goes your logic.

But they do choose to put themselves in stupid situations...

[Rutherford The Brave]

NO ONE PUTS THEIR SELF IN A SITUATION TO BE RAPED. No one, NOT A SINGLE PERSON.

[Raptor22]

NO ONE PUTS THEIR SELF IN A SITUATION TO BE RAPED. No one, NOT A SINGLE PERSON.

Yes they do due to lax judgement and decision making. Bottom line, a woman has more choice than a fetus and therefore the rights of the fetus should take precedent.

[Sapphire]

Common sense is a biggie, have a monogamous relationship and dont go to dark places at night alone. You guys both have this idea that its impossible to not get pregnant, all women need to do is think. They have plenty of choice. Hell, if they didnt want kids, get their tubed tied...

But they do choose to put themselves in stupid situations...
You evidently don't know anything about women, rape and rape victims.
Read this (http://www.rapecrisis.org.uk/myths/commonmyths.html) and then we can continue this discussion.

[ThatDude93]

I'm done reiterating what I have said numerous times. You people fail to see that sometimes after some thing so traumatic as a brutal that they are just going to get up and go straight to the hospital. MOST PEOPLE WOULD BE SO AFRAID TO LEAVE THEIR HOUSE AGAIN. Stop saying that it's so easy to get a morning after, when you have no clue what its like. You obviously do not care about women, women to you. Since you think that abortions should be legel, you think they are tokens. For you to get pregnant and raise your kids. While your doing who knows what! I'm sorry, but for aslong as I live I will fight this stupid arguement. I hate people like you, I honestly do. So ignorant, so blind.

Trust me, I don't hate women at all...none of us would exist if it wasn't for women. I respect women, I respect your views. I don't hate you, I think it is sad you hate us.

[Raptor22]

You evidently don't know anything about women, rape and rape victims.
Read this (http://www.rapecrisis.org.uk/myths/commonmyths.html) and then we can continue this discussion.

So if most rapes are by known men, pick your company. Marital rape is out of the question here since married individuals generally do not get abortions. If the woman accepted a drink from someone or left it unattended, her choice. Its not the fetus' fault that it was created by rape, why should they be killed because of their origin?

[Sapphire]

So if most rapes are by known men, pick your company.And how are men/women supposed to know that the person they just met in the library will rape them 3 years later? Marital rape is out of the question here since married individuals generally do not get abortions.Apparently 18% of abortions in the USA are performed on married women.If the woman accepted a drink from someone or left it unattended, her choice.Being victim of an illegal act isn't the victims fault - of course leaving a drink unattended is foolish but it doesn't mean that she is to blame. It never ceases to amaze me the number of times people try to blame women for falling prey to a rapist. Its not the fetus' fault that it was created by rape, why should they be killed because of their origin?It's not the woman's fault either but you appear to be happy to further violate her by forcing her to carry the fetus to term and to go through hours of labour. Both are innocent in this but the rights and wellbeing of the woman are the most important in the first trimester of the pregnancy and this includes the right to abort.

[Raptor22]

And how are men/women supposed to know that the person they just met in the library will rape them 3 years later? Apparently 18% of abortions in the USA are performed on married women.Being victim of an illegal act isn't the victims fault - of course leaving a drink unattended is foolish but it doesn't mean that she is to blame. It never ceases to amaze me the number of times people try to blame women for falling prey to a rapist. It's not the woman's fault either but you appear to be happy to further violate her by forcing her to carry the fetus to term and to go through hours of labour. Both are innocent in this but the rights and wellbeing of the woman are the most important in the first trimester of the pregnancy and this includes the right to abort.

There are things women can do to keep safe so the odds of a woman who uses all the keep safe measures getting raped, getting spooged in, having the birth control not work, having the sperm reach the egg (many couples cant get pregnant if they wanted to), having the morning after pill not work... the odds that a woman did everything she could to prevent the situation and it still happened are so infinitesimal. According to this website (http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims) only 5% of one time sexual encounters result in pregnancy. The odds are so small this discussion isnt even valid for maybe a handful of individual situations. And for those situations, put the little fuckers up for adoption.

[ThatDude93]

There are things women can do to keep safe so the odds of a woman who uses all the keep safe measures getting raped, getting spooged in, having the birth control not work, having the sperm reach the egg (many couples cant get pregnant if they wanted to), having the morning after pill not work... the odds that a woman did everything she could to prevent the situation and it still happened are so infinitesimal. According to this website (http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims) only 5% of one time sexual encounters result in pregnancy. The odds are so small this discussion isnt even valid for maybe a handful of individual situations. And for those situations, put the little fuckers up for adoption.

I am glad your here man, haha , I am not even in this anymore. You have more to say on the subject. :)

[Sapphire]

There are things women can do to keep safe so the odds of a woman who uses all the keep safe measures getting raped, getting spooged in, having the birth control not work, having the sperm reach the egg (many couples cant get pregnant if they wanted to), having the morning after pill not work... the odds that a woman did everything she could to prevent the situation and it still happened are so infinitesimal. According to this website (http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims) only 5% of one time sexual encounters result in pregnancy. The odds are so small this discussion isnt even valid for maybe a handful of individual situations. And for those situations, put the little fuckers up for adoption.Women do not choose to be raped and are not to blame if they are raped. Sure, there are things that can be done to lessen the likelihood of stranger rape. But acquaintance rape is very different - btw, I have noticed how you've avoided commenting on the following question "And how are men/women supposed to know that the person they just met in the library will rape them 3 years later? ".

Women are in no way, shape or form responsible for the rapists actions.
To say that the fetus is innocent and therefore shouldn't be aborted is to overlook the woman's innocence and well being. If it is in her best interest (mental health-wise) to abort then, as long as it is within the first trimester, she should be allowed to exercise her right to do so.

It is cruel to force a woman to carry a fetus to term and endure labour just so your (sometimes misaligned) values are satisfied - especially when doing so causes her unnecessary anguish.

[Sapphire]

I am glad your here man, haha , I am not even in this anymore. You have more to say on the subject. :)
The fact that there are now evidently two "people" here that believe these despicable things about rape is vile and vomit-inducing...

[ThatDude93]

I find it funny that your did the little quotations around people. And if he won't answer that question, I will. They won't know someone is going to rape them 3 years later. There is no possible way to know that.

[Rutherford The Brave]

I find it funny that your did the little quotations around people. And if he won't answer that question, I will. They won't know someone is going to rape them 3 years later. There is no possible way to know that.

A women won't know at all if someone is going to know when someone will rape them. Its not like they jump out and say "OHHHHHHH IM GOING TO RAPE YOUUUUUUU."

[Sapphire]

I find it funny that your did the little quotations around people. And if he won't answer that question, I will. They won't know someone is going to rape them 3 years later. There is no possible way to know that.
The quotations were there on purpose, of course.
And thank you for answering, however, Raptor22's own post goes against that hence my posing that question to him.

[ThatDude93]

@ Ocean Challenger: Yeah, but there are signs that some one is possible "stalking" you...or something of that sort...

[Rutherford The Brave]

Not all rapists are stalkers.

[ThatDude93]

I know, hence why I said "or something of the sort". That wasn't my wisest choice of words. But most rapists aren't everyday people that you just see on the street.

[Sapphire]

But most rapists aren't everyday people that you just see on the street.
But they are everyday people that you see on the street - that's why there is no way of knowing.

[ThatDude93]

Most people you see walking down the street just ignore you, they are in their own world. A rapist will most likely like you from the moment they see you. You can usually tell when someone has a liking for you.

[Rutherford The Brave]

Most people you see walking down the street just ignore you, they are in their own world. A rapist will most likely like you from the moment they see you. You can usually tell when someone has a liking for you.

Yeah, and not all rapists like their victim infact most rapists do not know anything about their victims they are just doing it to get thier rocks off.

[Sapphire]

Most people you see walking down the street just ignore you, they are in their own world. A rapist will most likely like you from the moment they see you. You can usually tell when someone has a liking for you.And you know that how?
Also, how do you suppose someone can tell whether the person they are befriending is nice and friendly as opposed to a selfish rapist (baring in mind that you have already stated that no one can tell that person X will rape them in the future)?

[ThatDude93]

Yeah, and not all rapists like their victim infact most rapists do not know anything about their victims they are just doing it to get thier rocks off.

hmm..well, that is true

And you know that how?
Also, how do you suppose someone can tell whether the person they are befriending is nice and friendly as opposed to a selfish rapist (baring in mind that you have already stated that no one can tell that person X will rape them in the future)?

Well I would think most sensible women would get to know a guy before they really started talking to them....

[ThatDude93]

darn it...will a mod please delete this

[The Batman]

Ok let's get off the subject of rapists if you wish to continue it then I suggest making another thread(since it is actually an interesting topic to debate) so let's all get on topic.

[CaptainObvious]

So if most rapes are by known men, pick your company. Marital rape is out of the question here since married individuals generally do not get abortions. If the woman accepted a drink from someone or left it unattended, her choice. Its not the fetus' fault that it was created by rape, why should they be killed because of their origin?

What is up with you people and figuring out whose "fault" things are and trying to screw them with all the consequences? Life doesn't work that way; there's not always someone at "fault", and you don't have to be guilty to get screwed. A woman who left her drink unattended isn't at "fault" for becoming pregnant, any more than example one of you would be at fault if some pedophile used this forum to find you and rape you. Because, you voluntarily signed up here yourselves, right?

Guilt and innocence don't matter. Since a fetus is not a person in any useful legal sense until late in the pregnancy, abortion should certainly be allowed up until that point. Because if it's not a person, it might be alive but we don't value it. We kill animals and other life all the time, because what we value is human persons. Fetuses are not human persons.

[Rutherford The Brave]

What is up with you people and figuring out whose "fault" things are and trying to screw them with all the consequences? Life doesn't work that way; there's not always someone at "fault", and you don't have to be guilty to get screwed. A woman who left her drink unattended isn't at "fault" for becoming pregnant, any more than example one of you would be at fault if some pedophile used this forum to find you and rape you. Because, you voluntarily signed up here yourselves, right?

Guilt and innocence don't matter. Since a fetus is not a person in any useful legal sense until late in the pregnancy, abortion should certainly be allowed up until that point. Because if it's not a person, it might be alive but we don't value it. We kill animals and other life all the time, because what we value is human persons. Fetuses are not human persons.

I could kiss you right about now.

[Raptor22]

What is up with you people and figuring out whose "fault" things are and trying to screw them with all the consequences? Life doesn't work that way; there's not always someone at "fault", and you don't have to be guilty to get screwed. A woman who left her drink unattended isn't at "fault" for becoming pregnant, any more than example one of you would be at fault if some pedophile used this forum to find you and rape you. Because, you voluntarily signed up here yourselves, right?

Guilt and innocence don't matter. Since a fetus is not a person in any useful legal sense until late in the pregnancy, abortion should certainly be allowed up until that point. Because if it's not a person, it might be alive but we don't value it. We kill animals and other life all the time, because what we value is human persons. Fetuses are not human persons.

Im not faulting anyone. Im saying that the mother had some effect on the creation of the predicament, the fetus didnt have any choice in the matter. Fetuses are unique human beings.