Soviet Union

[vito22andolini]

Hi comrades , who would wish to have the CCCP to come back?why?


my answer

Yes
because since russia is capitalist , they are poor and have a weak army , with the soviet union , things were straight , the army was the biggest of the world

[Atonement]

And you measure the greatness of a country by its military? Smooth.

The USSR had the second largest economy in the world (after the USA) at the time. Read the book "Animal Farm" by George Orwell. The people were suffering. It was communist at its brutest. It doesn't get much worse. They secluded the nation from the rest of the world. They were brutal. And most of all, they had a happy trigger to instigate military conflicts for no specific reason. Now, why would you want that back together?

I do not want it back together for I fear the people would be secluded again. I believe whole heartedly in free trade and free speech and freedom to information, all of which were not allowed in the USSR. Tyranny is no fair trade for power.

[Reality]

Not a Communist and tyrannical USSR back, but a powerful Russia would be nice. I have no idea why.

[Atonement]

Not a Communist and tyrannical USSR back, but a powerful Russia would be nice. I have no idea why.

The government control isn't much better today. The governemnt is controlled by one party, practically the influence of one man (Vladamir Putin). But, I do support strong economies for everyone.

[vito22andolini]

Because they had the control of their citizen and i perfectly and totaly agree with their brutallity , i cant even stand a person saying russia is better now

[Atonement]

Because they had the control of their citizen and i perfectly and totaly agree with their brutallity , i cant even stand a person saying russia is better now

You agree with usage of lethal force for speaking your mind? You agree that if I lived in the USSR in the 1970's, I could be potentially shot right now? Russia is better now because it is a mostly peaceful and free nation. I don't give a shit about the economy or military if they are suppressing the society. How is freedom a fair trade for power? Its not.

[Θάνατος]

I don't think Russia is better because they still suffer from the same leadership they had when they were communist.

The people suffered horribly under communism. Besides now the Russian Mafia runs a good portion of the country now.

[Atonement]

I don't think Russia is better because they still suffer from the same leadership they had when they were communist.

The people suffered horribly under communism. Besides now the Russian Mafia runs a good portion of the country now.

Would you link something to support that?

[quartermaster]

Are we talking about the return of the Soviet Union? Or the return of a powerful Russian Empire?

Regardless, both empires were treacherous in their own ways, as the Tsar and the Romanovs lived elaborately, while allowing their very people to starve. Better yet, the Bolsheviks quickly betrayed their very followers and crushed any opposition, thus ruling with an iron fist, until they too, were betrayed by one of Lenin's contemporaries, Josef Stalin. Even after the likes of Stalin, the USSR was defined by oppression and many a time terror; needless to say, it is a nation-state that I think the world would be best without. The Russian Empire, on that same token, was also notorious, and was defined by its attempts at several land grabs, as it were: from the several Russo-Turk wars (such as the Crimean War) to the Russo-Japanese war. In any event, a Russian Empire not controlled by the wealthy oligarchs of new (like today) or an oppressive minority like with the USSR, is not particularly a bad thing. If anything, it could be a counter-balance to the growing Chinese hegemony in Eurasia (as contrary to popular belief, the Chinese and Russians are not the “best of friends").

[Atonement]

Are we talking about the return of the Soviet Union? Or the return of a powerful Russian Empire?


CCCP = Союз Советских Социалистических Республик​ = Union of Soviet Socialist Republics = USSR

I agree with a powerful Russian state, sure, whatever, but if they do it the humane and right way.

[quartermaster]

CCCP = Союз Советских Социалистических Республик​ = Union of Soviet Socialist Republics = USSR



I am aware of that, however, he made a concession, linking the USSR to the current Russian Federation, so I wasn't sure if he meant a literal return of the Soviet Union or the power in which the country contained (including its size with its satellite territories).

[Tiberius]

I don't think Russia is better because they still suffer from the same leadership they had when they were communist.

The people suffered horribly under communism. Besides now the Russian Mafia runs a good portion of the country now.

Yes, Rob, you are right. Czar Putin happens to control most of the power in Russia and whoever has the power in Russia is inevitable the head of the mob.

To the OP. Why would you want the USSR reinstated? Nothing good came of communism and it failed for a reason. If you think Russia is weak, think again because it is still a world superpower and controls Eastern Europe and a large part of Asia with it's mass and influence.

[quartermaster]

Yes, Rob, you are right. Czar
To the OP. Why would you want the USSR reinstated? Nothing good came of communism and it failed for a reason. If you think Russia is weak, think again because it is still a world superpower and controls Eastern Europe and a large part of Asia with it's mass and influence.

Russia may be a regional power in Eurasia, but it lost its superpower "status" back in 1991. The only remnants of the superpower that once was, are Russia's nuclear capabilities (which are also quickly eroding, more accurately, corroding). Russia has lost its ability to wage a war much further than its borders, as it no longer can maintain stretched supply lines far from home (a recent Russian military report states that a considerable amount of both Russia’s tanks and fighter planes, were in near disrepair).

Above all, Russia no longer has a fleet that could carry operations beyond its coastline in large numbers, and thus, similar to the Chinese, is incapable of carrying out any large-scale military operation far from home. Those were the real keys as to why the United States and USSR were superpowers, as their influence was beyond basic regional or even international diplomacy, but was within the ability to wield considerable military power in any part of the world; Russia has lost that ability. Indeed, Russia has re-exerted itself as a regional power, especially since the war with Georgia, however, they are still not a superpower, just as neither the Chinese nor Indians are superpowers. Of course, any of these three powers could emerge, even overtaking the United States; however, that time is not now.

Perhaps I just caught you on a matter of semantics, but in any event, we can both agree that another USSR is not what the world needs.

[Sapphire]

The USSR was a cruel dictatorship in which the regular citizen was as much of a concern to its leaders as a leaf on a tree.

Gorbachev ftw!!

[quartermaster]

Gorbachev ftw!!

Agreed!

[Tiberius]

The definition is not limited to just militaristic capabilities but also encompasses economical and political prowess. Russia is the dominant force in Europe when it comes to natural resources. It contains the largest amount of minerals and energy resources that provide Europe with energy. If the Russians stop providing resources to anyone, many European countries will effectively shut down. That kind of power is charactoristic of a Superpower and if not, please explain it to me.

[Atonement]

Even if you were referring the the military power as the definition of great states, Russia still has the fourth largest military of active troops not to mention 1600 nuclear arms, and close to matching half of our equipment. I call that a damn good feat.

[The Batman]

You guys also don't realize that Germany started off with a small army before it almost took over Europe twice. If you start off taking over small countries and take control of their military then by about 3 or 4 of them you got a damn good army.

[quartermaster]

The definition is not limited to just militaristic capabilities but also encompasses economical and political prowess. Russia is the dominant force in Europe when it comes to natural resources. It contains the largest amount of minerals and energy resources that provide Europe with energy. If the Russians stop providing resources to anyone, many European countries will effectively shut down. That kind of power is charactoristic of a Superpower and if not, please explain it to me.
That is true, but economic prowess alone does not denote Superpower. In that case, Saudi Arabia is a superpower, as if it cuts off oil supplies to the world, it could cause a spiral in oil prices and a crisis as well, most poignantly in the United States; in effect, it would bring a superpower into a chaotic period, similar to that of the 1970’s oil embargo. Indeed, Russia's oil fields in the Caucuses allows Russia large amounts of influence, however, it is not able to consolidate that power. I say this because Russia's economy also relies on its oil shipments, and by cutting off oil supplies, Russia would effectively cripple itself. Perhaps you remember late last year when the price of oil nearly crashed, and the Russian economy hit a bust cycle in exact unison, where the Russian government had to close the market to ensure it did not crash. That is not characteristic of a superpower, but a major player that only has one card to play. Russia’s economy relies on its oil exports, and is not very diverse in its consumer goods.

A superpower, by design, has many cards to play, as its ability encompasses military, economical and geopolitical. Russia's scope ends geopolitically because they cannot wield considerable power across the globe politically, barring a few nation-states that are dependent on Russian weaponry. In effect, when you compare the power of the former Soviet Union, to the current Russian Federation, there is no comparison, as Russia’s true abilities in geopolitics, military and in many ways, even economics, does not span much further than their sphere of influence.

[Sapphire]

You guys also don't realize that Germany started off with a small army before it almost took over Europe twice. If you start off taking over small countries and take control of their military then by about 3 or 4 of them you got a damn good army.
Actually, Hitler built up the army before he invaded Poland.

[The Batman]

Yea but it wasn't really up to the status like the OP is saying makes a country good. My point was that just because the army isn't huge it doesn't mean they won't be able to kick some ass.

[quartermaster]

Yea but it wasn't really up to the status like the OP is saying makes a country good. My point was that just because the army isn't huge it doesn't mean they won't be able to kick some ass.

That is true, similar to the Wehrmacht's near destruction of the far numerically superior Soviet army, before the winter of 1943 (or even Finland's defeat of the far numerically superior Soviet army!). Or better yet, the destruction of the Arab League's armies during the Yom Kippur war, by the much smaller Israeli army.

[YourFriend]

No i wouldn't want USSR back.

[JackOfClubs]

No, it didn't go too well last time, nothing would be different now.

[vito22andolini]

Would you link something to support that?

a link , no , but tons and tons of documentary on the russian mafia , yes

[Tiberius]

Care to point out where they are?

[vito22andolini]

Care to point out where they are?

where they are....everywhere in russia , duh XD

[Whisper]

He means where are your sources to validate your argument


Hi comrades , who would wish to have the CCCP to come back?why?


my answer

Yes
because since russia is capitalist , they are poor and have a weak army , with the soviet union , things were straight , the army was the biggest of the world

I'm quite happy with a weakened Russia and from my understanding so are the former territories, Georgia for example...
Although that is changing, regrettably

[Tiberius]

where they are....everywhere in russia , duh XD

I wasn't talking about the mob itself, that's easy to find just look at Putin.

[Camazotz]

I said "no" because the world and the territories benefit more without a strong government. For now at least.

[Atonement]

a link , no , but tons and tons of documentary on the russian mafia , yes

I was quoting Rob, you responded, trying to find him a link to support a fact that goes against what you support... wow. I'm confundled.

The facts are:

The USSR owned many many territories that would all point guns at them should they see communism return and for good reason since their treatment by the USSR. Not to mention, if communism started up there again, the world would go into a fit and basically chop down their growing tree of communism like we did last time.

[Whisper]

"chop down their growing tree of communism like we did last time."
it'll never come back like that but uhh rather optimistic addi
there were many factors in the fall of the soviet union
not just NATO

[Church]

The Soviet Union and Communism are horrible ideas, even in Communist true form you need to give up what you've earned with your sweat, blood, and tears so some other person can have the same.

The Soviet Union was filled with hate and oppression, Capitalism presents opportunities, if you work hard, apply yourself, have a education you can accomplish great thing, in Communism the State gets everything you work for, your just a worker that cant get any higher than that.

And about military power, America has some of the best trained, best equipped and best armored units in the world, we have stealth fighter jets, missiles that can hit you from 1000's of miles away.

[scuba steve]

just because a nation has a large army dosn't make it good during world war two holding the eastern flank the wehrmacht lost 300,000 men and the soviet union lost 4,000,000

did you know there where at least 4 US nuclear planes in the air at each time on the east coast ready to bomb moscow in the case of a red invasion during the cold war

[Reality]

The Soviet Union and Communism are horrible ideas, even in Communist true form you need to give up what you've earned with your sweat, blood, and tears so some other person can have the same.

The Soviet Union was filled with hate and oppression, Capitalism presents opportunities, if you work hard, apply yourself, have a education you can accomplish great thing, in Communism the State gets everything you work for, your just a worker that cant get any higher than that.

And about military power, America has some of the best trained, best equipped and best armored units in the world, we have stealth fighter jets, missiles that can hit you from 1000's of miles away.
The theory of communism wasn't bad. Just the execution was entirely flawed, and it didn't work in the long run. You must also consider the fact that this was mainly due to those oppressive governments and how they used it.

If you think of it, they just wanted a classless, and "fair" society, where everyone just shared with eachother and were literally all equal. It actually helped farmers in Russia and China for quite a while, and it was supposed to help the Working Class (in sacrifice of the Upper Classes/Middle Classes at that)

Capitalism isn't all that great, either. It works (of course), but a lot of capitalism is based on pure greed. Big companies like Nike outsource their labour to Third World countries and pay kids and adults in places like Vietnam and India less than $5 a week. For example, making a football for that much and selling it for $80+.

This doesn't benefit American workers (because they can't get jobs), but it avoids paying fair wages due to laws, and the fact that they're so desperate in those countries, they need to work for something, and in turn exploits them.

"chop down their growing tree of communism like we did last time."
it'll never come back like that but uhh rather optimistic addi
there were many factors in the fall of the soviet union
not just NATO
Yeah. Neither USA nor NATO "defeated" the USSR in the sense that they caused it to fall, the USSR couldn't keep up with the arms race with the USA and bankrupted itself, and there was stuff that happened domestically in the USSR's government that caused it to collapse as well.

USA was the "last man standing", so to speak. The only remaining super-power after the Cold War was over.

[quartermaster]

The theory of communism wasn't bad. Just the execution was entirely flawed, and it didn't work in the long run. You must also consider the fact that this was mainly due to those oppressive governments and how they used it.

If you think of it, they just wanted a classless, and "fair" society, where everyone just shared with eachother and were literally all equal. It actually helped farmers in Russia and China for quite a while, and it was supposed to help the Working Class (in sacrifice of the Upper Classes/Middle Classes at that)

Capitalism isn't all that great, either. It works (of course), but a lot of capitalism is based on pure greed. Big companies like Nike outsource their labour to Third World countries and pay kids and adults in places like Vietnam and India less than $5 a week. For example, making a football for that much and selling it for $80+.

This doesn't benefit American workers (because they can't get jobs), but it avoids paying fair wages due to laws, and the fact that they're so desperate in those countries, they need to work for something, and in turn exploits them.



Milton Friedman had a brilliant way of explaining "greed," his argument is that everyone is greedy, and thus the world is run by individuals pursuing their separate interests. He argues that capitalism may not be the "best" way to run a country, but it is the best way found so far, that works. I quote, "history suggests that capitalism is a necessary condition for political freedom. Clearly it is not a sufficient condition." Essentially, capitalist systems have garnered the most freedom and economic prosperity out of any other system known to man.

Here is Friedman’s argument on greed, it really is quite brilliant in explaining why the capitalist system succeeds over the communist ideology:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWsx1X8PV_A

[Reality]

Milton Friedman had a brilliant way of explaining "greed," his argument is that everyone is greedy, and thus the world is run by individuals pursuing their separate interests. He argues that capitalism may not be the "best" way to run a country, but it is the best way found so far, that works. I quote, "history suggests that capitalism is a necessary condition for political freedom. Clearly it is not a sufficient condition." Essentially, capitalist systems have garnered the most freedom and economic prosperity out of any other system known to man.

Here is Friedman’s argument on greed, it really is quite brilliant in explaining why the capitalist system succeeds over the communist ideologue:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWsx1X8PV_A
Sadly, it's probably right. But that doesn't mean Capitalism is neccesarily that good.

I have no problem with the idea of a free market, and allowing anyone who succeeds and makes profits to get rich if they make a great, beneficial product. Without Capitalism there would be no things like public internet, and Microsoft, and all that jizzle.

But I think some businesses and corporations are too greedy. It'd be fine if they paid their workers in Third World countries fair wages, and also helped their OWN countries (USA, Britain, and wherever else they came from) by providing jobs. And most still do, but in recent years, we've been seeing lots of jobs and labour being outsourced to other countries.

[Hyper]

I'd love to have a go at Milton Friedman but his theories on free market just piss me off too much

So I'm going to ask Reality how did the Soviet Union

'' If you think of it, they just wanted a classless, and "fair" society, where everyone just shared with eachother and were literally all equal. It actually helped farmers in Russia and China for quite a while, and it was supposed to help the Working Class (in sacrifice of the Upper Classes/Middle Classes at that) ''

[Sapphire]

Stalin did wonders for bringing the USSR's economy into the 20th Century - he made 100 years worth of progress in 10 years. But from the moment it was created decades upon decades of corruption, inaction and the such like paved the way for the inevitable collapse of the USSR.

The USSR had been keeping up with the USA in the arms race. In fact Reagan felt in the 70's that the USA was actually falling behind the USSR. By 1981 the USA had more ICBMs but the USSR had more planes capable of carrying nuclear bombs. Both sides agreed in 1986 that they needed to work on cutting down their stockpiles. Clearly neither side had really won the arms race.

Gorbachev was the first ruler to acknowledge and address the problems in the Soviet Union. These problems combined with his refusal to rule with an iron fist like his predecessors led to the fall of the USSR.

Either way, the USSR didn't work then and it won't work now.

[Whisper]

i dont get the whole arms race thing between the two they could have killed the entire planet 10 fold
i mean once you get to that point
its just over kill

[scuba steve]

I'd love to have a go at Milton Friedman but his theories on free market just piss me off too much

So I'm going to ask Reality how did the Soviet Union

'' If you think of it, they just wanted a classless, and "fair" society, where everyone just shared with eachother and were literally all equal. It actually helped farmers in Russia and China for quite a while, and it was supposed to help the Working Class (in sacrifice of the Upper Classes/Middle Classes at that) ''

communism actually didn't help farmers to my understanding in China. they where still very poor under Mauo as when they harvested, their food was taken away by the government to feed the major cities of China.
It wasn't until the new ruler Deng gave them more of a diplomatic freedom allowing them to keep as much food as they needed and then the ability to sell the rest to the rising city projects along the eastern coast of China.
years later Deng was executed for bringing the country too far away from traditional chinease communism or Mauoism and being too......democratic

[MykeSoBe]

Anyways, the USSR nor the Russian Empire should exist again. I thought of dividing the Asian and European halves. The Eastern half of Russia is where the oil is, and if that Eastern half (Siberia) were to be its own country, it would benefit Siberia and not European Russia, of which otherwise would benefit more. What do you think, all of Russia is poor? Siberia is the part that's poor. West of the Ural Mts, they're having a good ol' time.

CCCP = Союз Советских Социалистических Республик​ = Union of Soviet Socialist Republics = USSR

I agree with a powerful Russian state, sure, whatever, but if they do it the humane and right way.

Just for the heck of it, I want to transliterate that Cyrillic bit: Sojuz Sovjetskich Socialističeskich Respublik ... is it right?

[vito22andolini]

You agree with usage of lethal force for speaking your mind? You agree that if I lived in the USSR in the 1970's, I could be potentially shot right now? Russia is better now because it is a mostly peaceful and free nation. I don't give a shit about the economy or military if they are suppressing the society. How is freedom a fair trade for power? Its not.

well , indeed , you wouldnt even be allowed to stay in the soviet union . they arent suppressing the society , but certain elements of it . and who are you to juge what is fair and whats not ? like 70% of ukraine wants the CCCP back , and Millions of people around the ancient soviet territory .they say that theres no justice anymore , they can be attacked and the aggressors wont get any sort of punishment . Now , a capitalist russian would do anything to get for example a new car , he could kill for it , theres no more common sharing .

[double r]

My family were Jews in the Soviet Union My Great Grand Father was an National Hero in the War My dad and Uncle Best Fencers in the Union, My family lost alot because of Stalin, the War, and just being a Jew. I hope they will never unite the CCCP

Get your facts straight they hated the Soviet Union


"well , indeed , you wouldnt even be allowed to stay in the soviet union . they arent suppressing the society , but certain elements of it . and who are you to juge what is fair and whats not ? like 70% of ukraine wants the CCCP back , and Millions of people around the ancient soviet territory .they say that theres no justice anymore , they can be attacked and the aggressors wont get any sort of punishment . Now , a capitalist russian would do anything to get for example a new car , he could kill for it , theres no more common sharing . "

[Commander Thor]

My family were Jews in the Soviet Union My Great Grand Father was an National Hero in the War My dad and Uncle Best Fencers in the Union, My family lost alot because of Stalin, the War, and just being a Jew. I hope they will never unite the CCCP

Get your facts straight they hated the Soviet Union


"well , indeed , you wouldnt even be allowed to stay in the soviet union . they arent suppressing the society , but certain elements of it . and who are you to juge what is fair and whats not ? like 70% of ukraine wants the CCCP back , and Millions of people around the ancient soviet territory .they say that theres no justice anymore , they can be attacked and the aggressors wont get any sort of punishment . Now , a capitalist russian would do anything to get for example a new car , he could kill for it , theres no more common sharing . "

This is from 2009 man, try to find something a bit more recent.

:locked: