European or American Economy?

[Dawncloack]

Hi my friends.

Now, I want to have your views on something, in fact it is your side of the story that I want to hear.

A little explanation about economy

The rough scheme of economy in America is like this:

There is no welfare or National Health System.
Therefore you pay less taxes.

The advantage is that you salary is considerably higher.

The disadvantage is that if you are underprivileged, there is less welfare, and that hospital costs are paid from your pocket.

In Europe, the rough scheme is:

You pay more taxes.
Your salary is considerably lower (compared with the US)

Advantages: You have more welfare if you need it.
Hospital costs are paid by the state.


So!

I want to know which do you think it is better.
Until now I have tried to presented in an aseptical way, now for my opinion:

I think the European model is better. (Anyone shocked? Think not.)

Right, salaries are lower, but if you happen to undergo surgery, you will not end up broke. (Hospital costs are usually tremendous).

Same for welfare. If you happen to bankcrupt, at least you will not starve, and you will have a roof on your head.

Of course, I do not believe that welfare means free living for the lazy. Are there cases? Yes there are. But I believe that those are a minority, while people who honestly need it despite doing the necessary efforts are the majority.

A welfare system or a National Health System are things difficult to manage. In Spain, not ten years ago the NHS was heavily indebted.
Simply thanks to some adjustments to make it more efficient and to refine the mechanisms that prevent people from milking the system it has a good superavit nowadays. It simply had (has) to be perfected.

But now I would like your views.

[redcar]

i totally agree as a European i love the system, in ireland we have too rates of income tax the lower rate is 20% and the higher rate is 42% and i cant reember wat the threshold is but its about 30,000 euro. any money earned after that 30,000 is taxed at 42%.

i think its a great system cause i know i would prefer to be poor in Ireland than the USA. we get free health and fantastic social welfare system.

now you say salaries are lower, i dont think that is so, in Ireland we have one of the highest minimum wages in Europe, and earn a great living after taxes.

[kolte]

America has no welfare system? you obviously don't live in america. Americans take quite a bit of there weekly salary and stow it into systems like welfare and social security. I don't pretend to know how the European Economy works, and I don't need to know how it works to know that the entire european union combined economy falls short of the united states power. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

[redcar]

well now in fairness to the EU, the Euro is doing far better than the US Dollar on the curreny markets, and in comparison to the British Pound the Dollar is pityful. which gives a very good visible indication of the economic strenght of the European Union.

[kolte]

I was hoping I could do this without proving stuff lol, but I guess I have too. *sigh*

GDP (purchasing power parity)
United States $ 12,370,000,000,000
European Union $ 12,180,000,000,000

GDP (official exchange rate)
European Union $ 13,310,000,000,000
United States $ 12,770,000,000,000

GDP per capita
United States $ 41,800
European Union $ 28,100

Investment (gross fixed)
European Union 19.60
United States 16.80

Inflation rate (consumer prices)
European Union 2.20
United States 3.20

Labor force
European Union 218,500,000
United States 149,300,000

Unemployment rate
United States 5.10
European Union 9.40

Industrial production growth rate
United States 3.20
European Union 1.30

Electricity production kWh
United States 3,892,000,000,000
European Union 2,925,000,000,000

Oil production
United States 7,610,000
European Union 3,424,000

Current account balance
United Kingdom $ -38,400,000,000
United States $ -829,100,000,000

NOTE: just like to point out that they didnt include the EU in this rank order, because the outstanding debt is so great, that it would be shameful and rude to the EU to write it down. n.n

Exports
European Union $ 1,318,000,000,000
United States $ 927,500,000,000

Imports
United States $ 1,727,000,000,000
European Union $ 1,402,000,000,000

Total Wins: US 7 EU 5 UK 1

NOTE: you may be thinking, not bad, the EU stands up well with the united states, but I must say, many of the rank orders, did not include the EU because the UK and Germany etc. Had such outstanding debts, and horrible numbers that they them selves would have matched the debts of the unitedstates. so I could sit here and add all of the EU countries together, thus making the debt horribly horrible in every horrid way possible. But I'm not that rude. n.n of course the US has more internet hosts, the EU has more phones, the US has way more internet users, the EU has more waterways, the US has more Railroads and roads, the EU has more people total. But the US has more Airports, more Military, and a richer military, but we only spend 3.30% of our total GDP on the military. The More You Know! Cuz Knowldge is power!

[redcar]

dont put imports and exporst seperatly not a good thing to do. that doesnt give a good judgement, you need to find the ballance of trade. i.e exports - imports which work out as:

U.S. $-799,500,000,000 Deficit in balance of trade
E.U. $ -84,000,000,000 Deficit in balance of trade.

this puts the EU ahead of the US. in terms of balance of trade,

also u need to remeber that recently the EU welcomed in 10 new countries alot from the former Soveit Union. they havent had time to develop as prosperious countries like the rest of the EU.

[Dawncloack]

America has no welfare system? you obviously don't live in america. Americans take quite a bit of there weekly salary and stow it into systems like welfare and social security. I don't pretend to know how the European Economy works, and I don't need to know how it works to know that the entire european union combined economy falls short of the united states power. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

That was I mistake and I hope you can forgive me, I proceed to correct it.
America has of course a welfare system. In Europe, the welfare system is, I think, better and more complete.

Now, Koler, thanks a lot for the data, that was simply a great job you did bringing the numbers. We will now analyze some them if you don't mind. And by analyze I do not mean "debunk". The data you provided is solid and uncontestable. But let's look at it.

First of all, a comment from redcar

well now in fairness to the EU, the Euro is doing far better than the US Dollar on the curreny markets, and in comparison to the British Pound the Dollar is pityful. which gives a very good visible indication of the economic strenght of the European Union.

No, in fact I must disagree, it does not. The values of currencies are not absolutes, but relative to each other. So it is not necessarily good if a currency has "more value". What is good is that the value of a currency remains stable for a long time. That makes traders trust that currency and use it as "common money" for international transactions. Transactions between, say, Poland and Thailand happen in dollars, because of that reason.

Inflation rate (consumer prices)
European Union 2.20
United States 3.20


That is also not a good indicator. Thanks to news reports we tend to considerate that inflation is always bad. That is not the case. A low but stable inflation rate (see examples provided by koler) is a signal of thriving economy. To knom more, read a book called "The Accidental theorist" by Paul Krugman, a fascinating insight in Economy.

Unemployment rate
United States 5.10
European Union 9.40
A great problem to tacke, no doubt.

Imports
United States $ 1,727,000,000,000
European Union $ 1,402,000,000,000
Importing more is not a good thing, I believe.

Note as well that three of those statistics, though true, carry no real meaning, when applying to this discussion.

Anyway, I would like to clarify the point of the opinions I expressed about European economy.

I am not discussing the economic power of the United States. That is not in discussion, the United States has an overwhelming superiority in that, why deny it? (Military as well, but if you ask me, every bank note spent in the military is as good as used as toilet paper.)

I am discussing the meaning of the economic structures behind what I explained. Personally I advice you all to take economy not as cyphers and statistics, but as something that has an impact on your life and that of your fellow man.

I think that, from what I explained at the beggining, if there was such an indicator as "quality of life" (which cannot be measured, being as it is subjective) it would be higher in Europe.

One little example, apart from what I said about welfare: I am a professional translator. I translate US job contracts (among many other things of course) into Spanish. Every time any European sees one of my translations, they ask me if it is a joke. Why?

Because, for example, US contracts do not contain the idea of sickness leave. If you get sick you can use your week of vacations or you can lose pay, eventually getting fired.

Come on, guys, that happened during the Industrial Revolution!

That is just one piece of data.

Anyway... Koler, as I said, your points are all valid, but I also hope you understand (not necessarily share) mines.

[redcar]

well now in fairness to the EU, the Euro is doing far better than the US Dollar on the curreny markets, and in comparison to the British Pound the Dollar is pityful. which gives a very good visible indication of the economic strenght of the European Union.


No, in fact I must disagree, it does not. The values of currencies are not absolutes, but relative to each other. So it is not necessarily good if a currency has "more value". What is good is that the value of a currency remains stable for a long time. That makes traders trust that currency and use it as "common money" for international transactions. Transactions between, say, Poland and Thailand happen in dollars, because of that reason.


well the value of currencies are very important, it shows a countries buying power, the greater the currency the more they can buy and therefore greatly benift. also as for stability the Euro has traded at roughly €1 : $1.20 for nearing 2 years now i consider that pretty stable and trustworthy. and as for Poland they are set to join the Euro i think in the next year.

[kolte]

Ah yes, but Imports are a major economic factor. Without imports everything would suck. My cloths are imported, my computer is imported, my rugs, my couch, my tv, parts of my house, the plants in my yard. And if you don't import your quality of life is very...low. International commerce is very important, in order to thrive and grow, we must expand our commerce and take in commerce from other countries. The more a country imports the more its people get. simple as that. And, though the government does not supply paied sick days from your business in the united states, the business you work for will give you PDO's Or paied days off. If they don't, then you just tell 'em "I can find another job" it may be a luxuary, but most people won't hire on if they don't get benefits like PDO's and Dental. So its true, the EU's governments do offer more benifits, but these benifits are commen sense in america, no offense. I'm a very economic person, its my fortay lol, but When you say that an army is unecessary, perhaps look at it this way, your not building an army for attacking other countries, but to keep other countries from attacking you. I don't think america could every be taken over, not because of our army, but because of our national pride, and our taste of freedom, once a country tastes freedom, it can never go back, never.

[Dawncloack]

well the value of currencies are very important, it shows a countries buying power, the greater the currency the more they can buy and therefore greatly benift. also as for stability the Euro has traded at roughly €1 : $1.20 for nearing 2 years now i consider that pretty stable and trustworthy. and as for Poland they are set to join the Euro i think in the next year.
But higher currency also harms buying power. On the other hand I do agree, it has been pretty stable and, as far as I know, being used in commerce.

Ah yes, but Imports are a major economic factor. Without imports everything would suck. My cloths are imported, my computer is imported, my rugs, my couch, my tv, parts of my house, the plants in my yard. And if you don't import your quality of life is very...low.

I do agree on the importance of imports, but I fail to see such a direct relation, meaning imports = better life


the business you work for will give you PDO's Or paied days off. If they don't, then you just tell 'em "I can find another job" it may be a luxuary, but most people won't hire on if they don't get benefits like PDO's and Dental.

Ok, it must be that only Slavetraders Inc. hires me to translate their contracts.


When you say that an army is unecessary, perhaps look at it this way, your not building an army for attacking other countries, but to keep other countries from attacking you.

...

I don't think america could every be taken over, not because of our army, but because of our national pride, and our taste of freedom, once a country tastes freedom, it can never go back, never.

Are you aware of the content of the PATRIOT ACT?

If they passed something like that anywhere near where I live, I would post this on some walls:
http://www.usconstitution.net/declar.html

And then go underground.

[redcar]

granted imports are good, but too many are not. if a country imports too many goods it will cost a lot of money. the ideal is to have exports exceeding imports. the more a country can produce itself internally the better off it is as its not dependant on other countries.

So its true, the EU's governments do offer more benifits, but these benifits are commen sense in america, no offense.

the benifts you mention are not only the benifts we recieve and not only to do with employment. there are very generous child allowances, among others. but back to employment, if someone goes out of a job here the government will step in and help them back on their feet. they recieve weekly money, they will even send them on courses to get education while being paid and even when they start work they will be paid by the government and the employer.

I don't think america could every be taken over, not because of our army, but because of our national pride, and our taste of freedom, once a country tastes freedom, it can never go back, never.

ah but everything goes full circle. look at France. back in the 18th Century they were rules by soley by Kings and Queens then there was a nice revolution people lost their heads, and the people had power, soon enough Napoleon came on the seen and France were under his sole control. everything goes full cirlce.

[kolte]

granted imports are good, but too many are not. if a country imports too many goods it will cost a lot of money. the ideal is to have exports exceeding imports. the more a country can produce itself internally the better off it is as its not dependant on other countries.

imports are often things people want. Sony, BMW, Rugs from Eyqpt, books from forgin writers. The more stuff your people have, the higher your GDP. If you can go out and buy anything, thats a good economy. the more stores, selling these goods, the better. I don't know about you, but when I go out shopping, I have countless places to choose from, with countless different goods. Why, I could go out now, being hungry, and eat at sonic, subway, the deli, kathys, mcdonalds, burgerking, pizza hut, papa johns, pizza shack, pizza in, daminos, the crackle barrel, starbucks, chilis. Or if I wanted to make my own food, kroger, wal mart, albertsons, harvest foods, dollar general/store/tree, family dollar, Exards, HEB, and if I wanted to buy cool stuff, I have raido shack, several family run businesses, wal mart, target, best buy you know, I think I could go on and on, but I making a poiint, and I think i'll get too it. America has more commerce then the EU. The eu has more small businsesses and the US has more corporations and mass retail. All of the marjor retail and fast food joints, and mass marketed places are here. And adverstisment everywear, no matter what kind of job, you can get it in america, no matter what kind of food, we got it, cloths, we got it, trinkets, electronics, entertainment, service. You want something its handed too you on a silver pladder. We are the richest, morst lucritive economy in the world. THe average person makes 40 G's a year, thats twice what your pulling in in the EU. Face it, you are arguing a faild argument. I don't care if your the President of the EU chamber of commerce, if they have one, and your best friend is the President the the US chamber of commerce. And you talk all the time, hes either lyin to ya, or your ignoring him.

the benifts you mention are not only the benifts we recieve and not only to do with employment. there are very generous child allowances, among others. but back to employment, if someone goes out of a job here the government will step in and help them back on their feet. they recieve weekly money, they will even send them on courses to get education while being paid and even when they start work they will be paid by the government and the employer.

and then you wonder why you have such a high unemployment rate. Heres a hint of advice, tell france to stop pissing in holes lining the street, stop bathing in fountians, and start using ice. Then all of them will have to find houses with bathrooms, because the street is no longer an option. If that does sway them to get a job, then perhaps not being able to bath will, and if that doesnt, at least they will not have a hot drink after a long days of shitting themselves, and no bathing for weeks. ewwww.

[Dawncloack]

I do think to be arguing a winning case.

But I am doing it to no avail, since I argue it with someone that builds his case on solipsism and disrespect.

[kolte]

I don't buy into that arrogant philosophy, I know america isnt the only country in the world and that its not problemless. But I know that I love america, that its the best country in the world, hands down, no compition. I love the European culture, the food, the land, the little towns and happy people. I'm not a solipsist, and though my jokes are in bad taste, there not falsities. Perhaps you have been to france no? so you know what I say is true, but if it offended you and your neighbor, then please fogive me.

[redcar]

no i dont want anything handed to me, its wats owed to me and to every other tax payer in Europe. if we fall on hard times through no fault of our own, its nice to know the government will be there for you. and u are using figures of the EU which do not represent acuratly the state of it. we have excepted 10 new and wat can be classed as poor countries, so these figures include these countries. wat u are forgetting is the EU is the worlds biggest and most powerful trading bloc. and any country who is involved becomes more economicly better off. like ireland has one of the highest wages in europe and it exceeds that of the USA.

[quote=koler]But I know that I love america, that its the best country in the world, hands down, no compition.

i would strongly disagree, but you are patriotic and i wont argue.

[kolte]

[quote="koler"You want something its handed too you on a silver pladder. We are the richest, morst lucritive economy in the world. THe average person makes 40 G's a year, thats twice what your pulling in in the EU.

no i dont want anything handed to me, its wats owed to me and to every other tax payer in Europe. if we fall on hard times through no fault of our own, its nice to know the government will be there for you. and u are using figures of the EU which do not represent acuratly the state of it. we have excepted 10 new and wat can be classed as poor countries, so these figures include these countries. wat u are forgetting is the EU is the worlds biggest and most powerful trading bloc. and any country who is involved becomes more economicly better off. like ireland has one of the highest wages in europe and it exceeds that of the USA.

But I know that I love america, that its the best country in the world, hands down, no compition.

i would strongly disagree, but you are patriotic and i wont argue.[/quote]

I was exaggerating when I said it was handed to you on a silver pladder, in reality, whatever you want you can have, if you work for it, in america.

how are you gonna disagree, I showed you proof, the US is on top of ALL the charts, every economic, militant, happiness, trasportation, communication, there is less political corruption, and I know, that comming from me is like, wtf kolte, you used to hate america. NOPE, I never hated america, I hate the bush campaign, huge difference, but america is a great country, just needs new administration. You cant deney the fact that america is on top and the EU is still climbing the wall. Do I think the EU has the potential to be the best conglameration of nations in the world. yes, its got more then anyone else has. the only thing that could be better, would be if the US\CANADA\MEXICO (yes mexico)\and all of centrel and south america joined forces, that would be one powerful combo, unstopable.

[Dawncloack]

Perhaps you have been to france no? so you know what I say is true, but if it offended you and your neighbor, then please fogive me.

Man, I LIVE in France, that is why simply I don't have a clue of what you are talking about!

Well, anyhow I am enjoying this a lot.

By the way, just curiosiy, really, what is the happiness indicator that you mentioned?

[Webbeardthepirate]

I don't have much to add that Koler hasn't already said. Very thurough. This is the most sophisiticated debate I have yest seen, and I ma impressed.

First, I'd like to add that we have the highest tax compliance rate of any nation on earth. We actually PAY our taxes, while europeans as a matter of course, in the latin speaking countries at least, consider it a game to try and pay as little in taxes as possible. We also keep lowering our taxes and getting MORE over all revenue as a result. January tax reciepts were 28 billion more then expected by the Treasury. We've some how set up our system to thrive on low taxes.

Our Federal Reserve, our central bank, has a target inflation rate of 3%. They stomp on it if it gets much above that, and add money to the economy if it gets much below that, unless something else comes up, like new technology. Wal-mart exists on computer controled inventory and just in time delivery, for example.

Asian countries own so much of our public debt they could ruin the value of the dollar any time they want by dumping their bonds on the open market, causing the value of the dollar to drop like a rock. Oh wait, Japan tried to do that in the early 90's and the value of the dollar dropped like a rock. They had to stop selling the bonds because it was reducing the value of the bonds, so they were stuck with it. Now its china that's basically screwed the same way. Seriously suckers.

Of course, they owe us. If we could stop the piracy of our music and movies our trade deficit would vanish overnight. We got china into the world trade organization just so we could use it to try and force them to stop the rampant piracy.

Our social saftey net varies actually around the coutnry. Outsiders sometimes forget that we are a federation of states, not unlike the EU, but with a stonger Brussles, I mean central government. Our states are nearly as independant as EU states. I happen to live in a high social safty net state. We have quality health care available to our poor and working poor. My medications are covered under this plan. There is plenty of work available, but it falls into two catagories, low skill low pay, high skill high pay. Of course you should really only be paid in proportion to your contributions to the end product, whatever it is. We actually produce the same amount of steel today as we did thirty years ago, but with one tenth of the work force.

See, capitolism does one thing really well, it destroys capitol. Consider the telegraph. The first telegraph companies had a license to print their own money, but now western union sent its last telegram, and they weren't really used for almost 70 years now. Capitolism rewards new ideas by making whoever implements the new technology first wealthy beyond the dreams of averice. But it also makes the old skills obsolete.

No wants to be told your skills are totally useless, you have to go. If you have organized labor, and Europe has it in spades, they tell the governemtn to stop it. They make deals that prevent comapanies from inovating and steam lining, because damn it, keeping skills up to date is hard, and finding a new job is worse. The US is breaking its unions though. Our Unionized comapnies like Ford and Northwest Airlines are going bankrupt to escape the unions. If Northwest's pilots strike when the Judge voids their contract, then North west goes into recievership, the company closes, all the assets are sold to pay of creditors, and the workers are all out of work with no pensions and no work. Dead. And you know what, Our government is going to let it happen. Its a good thing for the economy as a whole, but sucks for the airline workers. The point being, I don't think most european governments would let a big comapny like BMW or KLM fold, and say we're all stronger for it.

Thats why europe laggs behind econmically. But as I think Redcar pointed out, Europeans likes it that way. Frankly a 32 hour work maximum week and the month of august off sounds like a sweet to me. And every one skipping out of work on mondays, like in Ireland, I'd love to be able to get away with that too. I'm told at dinner with aquaintences Europeans don't even ask what your job is, which is nice. In the US studies show many of us (not me) prefer to be at work rather then home with our families.

If economics was a contest, the US is set up to win. But it actually isn/t a contest. Its a means of allocating scarce resources. Capitolism uses money to do this because of information costs. It is too hard for a central authroity to know what people want. I think the differences in Europe and the US economically are the results of just wanting different things. Its not wrong, not like communism, just different.

A British Deputy Coucil (assistant to a low ranking ambassador) from chicago spoke at a local university, and I was able to attend. He said of all his posting, the United States was the most different. In other countries people are polite, ask about opportunities for trade, oppinions on international issues etc. We bitch about having to rename our cheeses. We're not gonna by the way, even if our chedder is a freakish yellow-orange instead of proper white. Kraft makes white cheddar by the way, it is very good.

Any ways, no other people on earth are going to walk up to a representative of the British Empire and say "We don't want to rename our cheeses and you can't make us."

Which I did do. But I was more polite about it then that, but that was the basic message. He understood, suggested we call it american cheese. We already have that, and it is that nasty cheep veveta like stuff, its quite nasty I told him. He politly dropped the topic, diplomatically, and I chose not to press it, because I ma basically a nice person and was just teasing the Diplomat with the economic portfolio out of chicago who I knew would have to deal with wisconsin cheese makers all the time. If you ever have a chance to tease a diplomat from one of the Great Powers I highly recomend it, it is quite fun.

[Dawncloack]

I would be dishonest if I didn't admit that, in some extent, you won me over to your side.

Let's see if we can find common ground:
Of course I do agree that the good point of capitalism is innovation, recognisement of skills etc. You are right as well that I generalized way too much, that there are big difference between states.

I am not so radical on my opinion towards trade unions. They represent another group of interests... you could not have it if it was all decided by the boss: it would end up in slavery. On the other hand, I have seen trade unions really screw it up sometimes, and your examples are all valid. There must be a balance.

On the subject of the Federal Reserve etc., well, why say otherwise? they are really clever guys, and the European bank simply mimics them: and example of my long-held belief that there is one right way of doing things, in economy.
Alan Greenspan is very highly regarded, you know. He came over to work for the brits now.

But of course, you have to look at my opinions like this: I am biased by my extreme mistrust of corporations. The theoretical objective of a government is to protect its subjects (hence the social contract). The theoretical objective of a private enterprise is to make money, and for that, they influence government, till the point where it might start defending them, rather than its subjects.
E.g. Wal-mart declares record benefits and squeezes salaries and luch half-hours from employees... do you see my point?

In any case, I do agree, I enjoyed this debate a lot.

[kolte]

Mass Corporations, though unfriendly, are what makes an economy. Though small businesses are more friendly, they often fail to give the consumer what they want. The definition, to me, of a good economy, is when the consumers dont have to go to tokyo to get things from tokyo. They don't have to go to Germany to get cars from germany, and thy don't have to go to the aussies to see a kangaroo. They can drive walk or take public transportation, to any of these things withen there community. Its the freedom to see taste and do anything. Thats why Imports are so important. They bring what the people want to there country. Sorry if I sound blunt, but I don't want a ford, i want a Benz lol, I don't want american products all the time, I want imported prodcts. its comsumer choice, and the united states provides that. Many countries see imports as bad, no so in the united states. Sure we have a massive debt. But no more when compared % then most other nations. Plus we are at war at the moment. To help other, not so better off countries, share the freedoms and commerce that we have. So though you may disagree with what the united states is doing, the young Iraqis future is more secure, and they are automaticly handed a better life, with more oppritunities.....thats what life is all about, having all the oppritunites, weather or not you take them.

[redcar]

how are you gonna disagree, I showed you proof, the US is on top of ALL the charts,

no you randomly selected statistics which show USA in a better light, i could have very easly done the same with the EU pick several fancy statistics which put it ahead.

...there is less political corruption...

and pray tell what part of the EU is corrupt?

Do I think the EU has the potential to be the best conglameration of nations in the world. yes,

the EU is already the number one "conglomarate" of nations in the world, i ask you to point out one which is better.

[kolte]

the Great 8 as I like to call them, of the UN??? hello???
and don't even try to pretend that of all of the governments in the EU none are currupt, thats just arrogance. the only economical statistics I didnt show were oil and natural gas, and america was better then the EU on both of those, I went threw as many economic statistics as I knew of, if you like, show me all the stitistics that make th EU look good. And by the way, I used the WORLD FACT BOOK, you should site what you use too, see witch one is more accredited and up to date.

[redcar]

oh please the G8? they dont have any type of power or policies that come anywhere close to that of the EU. Common Agricultural Policy, Single European Market, European Monetry Fund, all policies that have a profound impact on Europeans and have benifited millions.

i dont have the time to go and find statistics at the moment. oh and i used for some of my statistics the Central Statistics Office of Ireland, an idependant institution of the government and totally unbiased.

[kolte]

if its statistics then there is no bias....its just statistics, fact. only opionions are bias. anywho, the EU is not as good as america, though you may like it more, that doesnt mean its better. I like white instead of black, but that doesnt mean black is better or worse.

[redcar]

yea i think we should agree to disagree cause otherwise we will end up debating till one of us blows up!!:D

[Dawncloack]

That is the best thing always, since it is arrogant to try and change other people's views, as a general rule.

Without changing my views radically, I have learned a lot.

Thanks folks!

[kolte]

That is the best thing always, since it is arrogant to try and change other people's views, as a general rule.

Without changing my views radically, I have learned a lot.

Thanks folks!

in the debate forum, I like to think of it as cowardly to not try and change peoples views, only because I love a good, long, fufilling debate. *sigh*

[Webbeardthepirate]

I do think this was one of the better debates. Of course we have mostly come to the conclusion that Europe and the US are mostly different. I'f you have read any of my other posts you can tell I am extreemly Ethnocentric, but I like to include Europe in my Ethnocentrism, much to, I suspect, Redcar's dismay. We're both democracies, mostly, so we prety much have the systems in place that we want. In the US we take the bread and circuses our corporations hand out, at always the low price, always. Our rampant consumerism has helped many nations sell us stuff, and lift their entire countries up.

Japan was doing great there for a little bit. I think more of them need to learn english and move here though. Tokyo is rediculously crouded, and we still have lots of room for educated hard working conformists. Their children will grow up like us, but creative non-conformity is good too, and we produce alot of that as well. Not as much as we pretend, most "creative" people are derivative hacks. Not every one can be Andy Worhal, the hairspray alone would be ecologically devistating. (Andy Worhal had wild frizzed out hair).

Hey, speaking of corporations, it looks like they are going to try and move the country toa tax payer universal health care system so they can try and compete with countries that have such health care. We shall see what happens then.

[kolte]

I do think this was one of the better debates. Of course we have mostly come to the conclusion that Europe and the US are mostly different. I'f you have read any of my other posts you can tell I am extreemly Ethnocentric, but I like to include Europe in my Ethnocentrism, much to, I suspect, Redcar's dismay. We're both democracies, mostly, so we prety much have the systems in place that we want. In the US we take the bread and circuses our corporations hand out, at always the low price, always. Our rampant consumerism has helped many nations sell us stuff, and lift their entire countries up.

Japan was doing great there for a little bit. I think more of them need to learn english and move here though. Tokyo is rediculously crouded, and we still have lots of room for educated hard working conformists. Their children will grow up like us, but creative non-conformity is good too, and we produce alot of that as well. Not as much as we pretend, most "creative" people are derivative hacks. Not every one can be Andy Worhal, the hairspray alone would be ecologically devistating. (Andy Worhal had wild frizzed out hair).

Hey, speaking of corporations, it looks like they are going to try and move the country toa tax payer universal health care system so they can try and compete with countries that have such health care. We shall see what happens then.

you are so right about japan, indeed you are. And note that had they not started mass trade with the US, then all of these comodities would be non existant. though arrogant souding, i think we can lay that as fact. corprate america both makes and breaks this country, they offer what no one has, but they take away allot of the foudations that made communities.