Illegal Immigration - Your Views

[Reality]

This is an issue in many First World countries today. It's not just a moral issue, but also an economic one. Do you believe that illegal immigrants are justified or wrong? What's your opinions on the issue?

On one hand, I think that illegal immigrants that fled to richer countries do so because they're very poor and very in need of work and money, which their own countries cannot provide them. Although most illegal immigrants work less for minimum wage, they appreciate the opportunity, because to be fair, it's probably 3x more than what they can earn at home, if they can earn anything at all that is.

Some people question why they don't just move to other countries legally, but moving to any First World nation such as the USA, Australia, Britain, Canada, Europe etc. is not all that easy. You need a special immigration visa to get into all of these countries now, and many of the visa requirements aren't that easy to fulfill. You often need a University degree + experience in a valuable field (medical, engineering, computers, etc) to even stand a chance and if not that, you need close family (parents, siblings or sons/daughters who have Citizenship) in these countries, which is simply an "either you do, or you don't" scenario, so that's why they do it illegally.

But mind you I think it's wrong that the natives of these countries they fled to get laid off from their jobs (such as in construction), because illegal immigrants are willing to work for far less money, which causes more and more xenophobia towards them.

[Sage]

I personally support illegal immigrants. Some time ago I watched a wonderful documentary (I don't recall the name, I'll be sure to mention it if it comes back to me.) about the dangerous route many people from South America take to flee to the north. Of all the immigrants that survive the route in one piece, not all of them will be able to find jobs or ever see their families again.

I take a humanistic view of the world. We're all people and there is no way I can turn down someone who means to well and wishes to work- for less than minimum wage, even. As mentioned in Semp's post, it is unreasonably difficult for people of second or third world countries to get into first world countries like the United States or Canada. When one puts restrictions as tough as those in place, you can only wonder why people risk their lives to come here illegally.

[Camazotz]

I personally support illegal immigrants. Some time ago I watched a wonderful documentary (I don't recall the name, I'll be sure to mention it if it comes back to me.) about the dangerous route many people from South America take to flee to the north. Of all the immigrants that survive the route in one piece, not all of them will be able to find jobs or ever see their families again.

I take a humanistic view of the world. We're all people and there is no way I can turn down someone who means to well and wishes to work- for less than minimum wage, even. As mentioned in Semp's post, it is unreasonably difficult for people of second or third world countries to get into first world countries like the United States or Canada. When one puts restrictions as tough as those in place, you can only wonder why people risk their lives to come here illegally.

My opinion exactly. They deserve to come here after all the sacrifice they are willing to put in for the opportunity to be wealthy and free. If they're willing to put their lives on the line just to work and raise a family, they deserve it more than the native citizen who is working because they have to.

[JackOfClubs]

I realize that they come to America and other countries to find jobs, and they will do jobs that nobody else is willing to do. But I am a legal immigrant. And I know that it takes time, money, and effort to get a visa or green card. But it really pisses me off that there are illegal immigrants living here without going through the immigration process, and we have to go through it just to be legal.

I think that the immigration should be made cheaper, easier, and shorter. They deserve it for the hard work they go through just to make a living for their families.

[trevor20800]

i think that is it not fair that it is hard to become a us citizen but you can just like go to anywhere else and become their citizen and they don't care

[INFERNO]

I'm not entirely sure if I support or don't support illegal immigration. It benefits the immigrants because they can make more money, have a better quality of life, etc... . But on the counterside, it drastically increases the pressure that legal citizens have to get and keep their jobs. While the immigrants working benefits our economy, we sacrifice the legal citizens who may become unemployed and that can end up harming the economy.

While helping the immigrants is nice and all, it can lead to the legal citizens being screwed. So either choice you take, helping them or not, either the legal citizens or the illegal immigrants end up getting the short end of the stick.

[Reality]

I realize that they come to America and other countries to find jobs, and they will do jobs that nobody else is willing to do. But I am a legal immigrant. And I know that it takes time, money, and effort to get a visa or green card. But it really pisses me off that there are illegal immigrants living here without going through the immigration process, and we have to go through it just to be legal.
I completely understand your point here, Jack.

But again, you have to realize that illegal immigrants such as those Mexicans and other South and Central Americans who sneak across the USA-Mexico border are unskilled, poor and desperate. They oftenly only do not have the skills, qualifications or experience to immigrate to the USA (or anywhere else), they are in starving conditions and don't have the time to wait.

If I'm not mistaken, some immigration "lines" to the USA are between six months to 20 or so years, depending on the visa. Do you think some starving family has the time or money for all that?

I'm assuming you moved to the US from a rich country? I'm guessing Ireland because of your location.. if I'm not wrong, Ireland is a valid country on the USA Green Card Lottery, and it's a very educated country. It's not as difficult for people from rich countries to move to other rich countries, but as for poor countries to rich countries, it's a different story.

i think that is it not fair that it is hard to become a us citizen but you can just like go to anywhere else and become their citizen and they don't care
I don't really catch your drift, here. It's about as difficult to get Canadian, Australian or any European Union country Citizenship as it is U.S. Citizenship. More difficult in the case of EU Citizenship, because we don't have birthright citizenship anymore, and the requirements and process are more longer.

[orangecounty]

I am 100% against illegal immigrants and the notion of them being allowed to stay in a country.

First of all, it is a total slam in the face to people who took the legal steps to come to the country (I will use the USA since it is the nation I am in)...basically telling them that the time, money, effort, and work - to keep their records clean - was all for nothing.

Second, it degrades the laws of a country. It is basically sending the message that "if enough people do it, it is ok"...which undermines the laws of the land. In the US, illegal immigration is a crime, yet it is not being treated like one as it should. It makes our laws look as if they can be walked all over, which sends a weak message to the rest of the world.

Third, if a person is willing to "illegally" come here (remember, they are knowingly committing a crime), they are more likely to commit other crimes since they have shown their inability to adhere to federal laws by coming here in the first place. It has been shown that illegal immigrants, not legal ones, are more likely to be involved in drug trafficking with their home country, gangs, and other crimes.

Fourth, the LEGAL immigration system of the US encourages people to learn the language of the land. Most illegal immigrants do not learn the language, and it is very apparent here in Southern California (as we are close to the Mexico border). When immigration was primarily legal to the US from the 1700's to about the 1990's, all immigrants pretty much came here knowing English and if they didn't, they learned quickly. Now, it seems as if illegal immigrants who dominate Southern California refuse to learn English, which makes everything that much harder.

Fifthly, illegal immigration has essentially ruined the economy of the state of California. Remember, taxpayers have to pay for their kids to go to school, medication, trips to the hospital, etc. since they pay no taxes. It has been estimated that every four families in California also pay for the services for one illegal immigrant family.

Sixthly, by granting them citizenship...what motivation will immigrants in the future have for doing it legally in the future? They will probably think that if they can just slip across the borders, they too will get citizenship...and the message we should be sending is that immigration is welcome...as long as you respect the laws of the land and do it properly.

Seventhly, immigration quotas are set up for a reason in a country. They prevent the welfare system from being overburdened by newcomers looking to get on their feet, prevent schools from seeing surges of immigrants and experience overcrowding, prevent housing overcrowding by ensuring that too many immigrants do not flood given areas, and all the other problems that come when cities grow too fast (such as traffic, hospital occupancy, etc.). If we just allow unrestricted immigration in mass (as Los Angeles has largely experienced from illegal immigration), you face increased traffic, overburdened schools and hospitals, a bankrupt welfare system, and all the other problems I mentioned.

I have many other reasons for opposing it, but my little fingers are getting tired.

[Djonemore]

You guys that are for illegal immigration should read this thoroughly.
Click Me! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_impact_of_illegal_immigrants_in_the_United_States)

[Whisper]

I'm 100% against illegal immigration in Canada
I don't know enough about it in other countries to judge

[Sage]

First of all, it is a total slam in the face to people who took the legal steps to come to the country (I will use the USA since it is the nation I am in)...basically telling them that the time, money, effort, and work - to keep their records clean - was all for nothing.

There is a big difference between immigrating to the United States from, say, France, than immigrating to the United States from somewhere like South America. It was already elaborated earlier in the thread how difficult it is for people of third world countries to get into places like the US.

Second, it degrades the laws of a country. It is basically sending the message that "if enough people do it, it is ok"...which undermines the laws of the land. In the US, illegal immigration is a crime, yet it is not being treated like one as it should. It makes our laws look as if they can be walked all over, which sends a weak message to the rest of the world.

If enough people are breaking the law, maybe, just maybe, there's something wrong with the law. Laws of the land? The US government is not infallible.

Third, if a person is willing to "illegally" come here (remember, they are knowingly committing a crime), they are more likely to commit other crimes since they have shown their inability to adhere to federal laws by coming here in the first place. It has been shown that illegal immigrants, not legal ones, are more likely to be involved in drug trafficking with their home country, gangs, and other crimes.

I'd like to see a study done that proves this to be true. People illegally immigrate to the US because they will surely die in their homelands where money to survive is not abundant.

Fifthly, illegal immigration has essentially ruined the economy of the state of California. Remember, taxpayers have to pay for their kids to go to school, medication, trips to the hospital, etc. since they pay no taxes. It has been estimated that every four families in California also pay for the services for one illegal immigrant family.

We're all human beings. Perhaps some people should simply swallow their national pride and lend a hand to those less fortunate.

Sixthly, by granting them citizenship...what motivation will immigrants in the future have for doing it legally in the future? They will probably think that if they can just slip across the borders, they too will get citizenship...and the message we should be sending is that immigration is welcome...as long as you respect the laws of the land and do it properly.

They already have no motivation to do it legally because for people in certain countries, it is unreasonably difficult to get the visa and paperwork needed.

[Reality]

OrangeCounty, not to be a grammatical whore, but please don't write massive walls of text.. they're kind of a pain to decipher and pick out points. >_> But good answers, people.

I am 100% against illegal immigrants and the notion of them being allowed to stay in a country. First of all, it is a total slam in the face to people who took the legal steps to come to the country (I will use the USA since it is the nation I am in)
...basically telling them that the time, money, effort, and work - to keep their records clean - was all for nothing.
Well, lets remember, seeing as VT is.. international, that it's not just the issue of illegal immigration to the United States, although I know what you mean. But anyways, I do actually symphathize with your point here, but I've already addressed it earlier in the thread.

Legal immigrants, not just to the US, but anywhere tend to get more respect because of the effort, time and money they spend in their immigration process. But it's not like illegal immigrants purposely go to their destination country to be illegal... they don't have a choice.

You have to remember that the legal immigrants DO get the better end of the stick, as they are legal. They're elegible for Citizenship, and fair paying jobs.

Second, it degrades the laws of a country. It is basically sending the message that "if enough people do it, it is ok"...which undermines the laws of the land. In the US, illegal immigration is a crime, yet it is not being treated like one as it should. It makes our laws look as if they can be walked all over, which sends a weak message to the rest of the world.
OK, OK. Remember that not only the United States is having this dilemma, here in the UK, and every other First World country is, with illegal immigrants overstaying tourist visas. So it doesn't make your laws look as if they're being pissed over really.

I have a no absolute view on illegal immigration. I neither support it, nor condemn it, although I tend to take the humanitarian view on it. But anyways, you have a good point on the fact that illegal immigration is well... illegal and breaks the laws of the country. But laws aren't always right. Women could not always vote, for example, and the laws in Southern USA used to support slavery and discrimination against blacks.

Illegal immigration, although one could see it as trespassing, is not a moral crime, but rather a political one. Stealing property or murdering/raping someone is an absolute moral crime. Being desperate is not.

Third, if a person is willing to "illegally" come here (remember, they are knowingly committing a crime), they are more likely to commit other crimes since they have shown their inability to adhere to federal laws by coming here in the first place. It has been shown that illegal immigrants, not legal ones, are more likely to be involved in drug trafficking with their home country, gangs, and other crimes.
Many illegal immigrants do not move to their destination country with the intent of committing crime. I know some do, but many of them go to said country to look for better wages and a better standard of living.

I don't condone gangs or crimes like that, but in the case of many asylum seekers here in the UK who don't get work permits (in a sense they're semi-legal), they often turn to crimes or joining gangs to earn money to live. Many of them are also homeless. I'm sure it's the same situation for some of the illegals over there in USA.

Fourth, the LEGAL immigration system of the US encourages people to learn the language of the land. Most illegal immigrants do not learn the language, and it is very apparent here in Southern California (as we are close to the Mexico border). When immigration was primarily legal to the US from the 1700's to about the 1990's, all immigrants pretty much came here knowing English and if they didn't, they learned quickly. Now, it seems as if illegal immigrants who dominate Southern California refuse to learn English, which makes everything that much harder.
Fair point. Many illegal immigrants that go to richer countries (most of them are English-speaking) do not know much, if any, of that countries' language. This does create a barrier for them, and in a sense, is self-inflicted. But I don't think for all of them it's outright refusal, you do have to know that Modern English is one of the most difficult languages in the world, it could be inability. You see, many legal immigrants here in the UK, and I also know some legal immigrants in the US do not grasp that much English - you only need to know the language for Citizenship (not immigration itself) tests, which even then, the tests aren't really that hard.

Fifthly, illegal immigration has essentially ruined the economy of the state of California. Remember, taxpayers have to pay for their kids to go to school, medication, trips to the hospital, etc. since they pay no taxes. It has been estimated that every four families in California also pay for the services for one illegal immigrant family.
I don't live in California or the U.S. so I can't really judge on the economy. However, in terms of education/school - that is a basic human right.

You must realise that illegal immigrants children are not responsible for their parents actions, I don't think denying them something such as the right to school would be a wise idea, and would be counterproductive to the U.S., as they will not get a chance to learn English (which is one of your arguments), nor get any valuable education, which means they would be even more of a burden.. at least with the chance of education, they can better themselves when they get older.


Sixthly, by granting them citizenship...what motivation will immigrants in the future have for doing it legally in the future? They will probably think that if they can just slip across the borders, they too will get citizenship...and the message we should be sending is that immigration is welcome...as long as you respect the laws of the land and do it properly.
Again. Read my initial post on how difficult it is to immigrate to the USA and other First World countries.

As far as I know nowhere, not even in the US, do illegal immigrants get Citizenship unless their children was born there (which is a Constitutional rule) or they were around when the Amnesty there happened in the 1980's. From what I see, the Amnesty was a stupid idea, and I'll admit it was unfair to the legal immigrants there, and it actually attracted more illegal immigrants to live there, although I do think the illegal immigrants already there were somewhat entitled to it if they did try to be good.

Seventhly, immigration quotas are set up for a reason in a country. They prevent the welfare system from being overburdened by newcomers looking to get on their feet, prevent schools from seeing surges of immigrants and experience overcrowding, prevent housing overcrowding by ensuring that too many immigrants do not flood given areas, and all the other problems that come when cities grow too fast (such as traffic, hospital occupancy, etc.). If we just allow unrestricted immigration in mass (as Los Angeles has largely experienced from illegal immigration), you face increased traffic, overburdened schools and hospitals, a bankrupt welfare system, and all the other problems I mentioned.
Immigrational quotas are understable.

I know you're talking about immigration in general here, but illegal immigrants are not entitled to welfare benefits in any First World country, last I heard. Only Citizens and legal immigrants are. As they are undocumented and thus not registered in any way, how would they actually be able to receieve them? For example.. they don't even legally live at an address.

[Zephyr]

I don't care if you want to come to my country.
But PLEASE do it legally.

If you enter illegally,
Then you need to leave.
I don't care where you're from,
Mexico, Canada, China, UK, whatever,
You don't get special treatment.

My ancestors did it legally,
So you should do it legally.


That pretty much sums up my views.

[orangecounty]

I don't care if you want to come to my country.
But PLEASE do it legally.

If you enter illegally,
Then you need to leave.
I don't care where you're from,
Mexico, Canada, China, UK, whatever,
You don't get special treatment.

My ancestors did it legally,
So you should do it legally.


That pretty much sums up my views.

Well said. :)

[Antares]

I can't see how it can be justified. It seems impossible to me.

Immigration is a very simple thing...well simple in concept. The process is a bit long, but that's for a reason. A country, a group of people who agrees on common concepts, decides the rules for allowing other people into their country. If you want to go to their country FOLLOW THEIR RULES FOR GETTING THERE.
At least attempt to be decent and not make a fool of yourself.

Now I am not sure about other countries but I know that the U.S. has a biggggg problem with it. Mexicans especially. Now, they come here...don't know how...hide in trucks I guess...or make a trek across the border, to come here and use our resources to survive. Our taxpayer dollars are being used, when they aren't even citizens.
How are they being used? Well I am sure they don't check for ID at soup kitchens (and I know most come and stay with families) but they also drive on the street, cause wear to them, and do the things that our governments eventually have to...back.

Umm, they arne't helping the economy. The captialist society we live is basically a well oiled machine. Without the side work of immigrants taking jobs(that I am sure some unemployed Americans would take), not paying income taxes, then it would still work fine.

I am not effectively sharing my points right now buecause its 3am...and im not thinking but god just do it legally.

and learn at least some amount of our language before doing so, if you do it illegally.

thanks.

[punkjake]

I support them!But then again my great great grandma is from Mexico :yawn: but they want to be in the so called land of opportunity,Bush was being a dick weed,just like my red necked friends who think they shouldn't be here :mad: ,truly every one is an immigrant even Indians aka "Native" Americans.And to be honest probably even illegal.But I don't think they should not have to pay taxes ,since your a citizen you should pay taxes :yeah:,just not as high as we American's pay,until they get there life on track,because really who do you see building the houses?Not average American's (White,Black)but this mite just be me since i have a Hispanic background,and i live in a Hispanic/Black area.

[ocguy]

Well, how about the "legal" immigrants whom come to this country legally to work and earn an honest living? Personally I know some people who went through the system to become legal, honest immigrants. And 100% of them hate illegals to death. Like one of my associates said to me, "They get to jump a fence and run around the neighborhood gang-banging, while I've got to work hard to support those mother-fuckers." Well, the US can be a tough, but we need to be tough in order to keep our country safe and secure. You know in Mexico, Mexican citizens have to of been born in Mexico to buy land. Yes, if an American moves to Mexico and becomes a Mexican citizen, they wouldn't have the right to buy land.
I think we should transport people out of the country and allow them to finish all of their paperwork to become legal (in their own country).

[Antares]

Well, how about the "legal" immigrants whom come to this country legally to work and earn an honest living? Personally I know some people who went through the system to become legal, honest immigrants. And 100% of them hate illegals to death. Like one of my associates said to me, Well, the US can be a tough, but we need to be tough in order to keep our country safe and secure. You know in Mexico, Mexican citizens have to of been born in Mexico to buy land. Yes, if an American moves to Mexico and becomes a Mexican citizen, they wouldn't have the right to buy land.
I think we should transport people out of the country and allow them to finish all of their paperwork to become legal (in their own country).

Legal immigrants. They have SOOO much more respect from me.
To some extent because they can speak English/some fragment but also because they went through OUR process and followed OUR rules. And they tend to be from exotic places, which can be refreshing

[orangecounty]

I support them!But then again my great great grandma is from Mexico :yawn: but they want to be in the so called land of opportunity,Bush was being a dick weed,just like my red necked friends who think they shouldn't be here :mad: ,truly every one is an immigrant even Indians aka "Native" Americans.And to be honest probably even illegal.But I don't think they should not have to pay taxes ,since your a citizen you should pay taxes :yeah:,just not as high as we American's pay,until they get there life on track,because really who do you see building the houses?Not average American's (White,Black)but this mite just be me since i have a Hispanic background,and i live in a Hispanic/Black area.

There are soooooo many things wrong with this post, but it really is not worth my time to address this. Your calling people "rednecks" as your trying to talk about acceptance? Are you serious?

And Bush was one of the biggest proponents for illegal immigration...a reason many Republican's disliked him. So I don't know what your talking about...I think you just hate Bush because the media told you to.

And that is the lamest thing I have ever heard. An immigrant should have to pay the same taxes as all American citizens because they are afforded the same benefits as all other American citizens. I don't know if you know this, but your families native country, Mexico, is much more strict on immigration. I am sure if American's flooded Mexico illegally, they would be swiftly deported (as they should be). If you don't enter legally, you need to pack up and head out...you're not welcome here.

I really shouldn't have given this post this much of my time; I am obviously talking to someone who does not have the facts.

[James18]

This is a tough issue, although I think recent events in the United States makes clear what the American policy needs to be.

Illegal immigration has exacerbated the unemployment problem in this country (15 million extra people that aren't supposed to be here will make a dent) and their inability to pay for basic goods as overstrained the U.S. welfare and health care systems.

The solution for the U.S. is two fold. One, we must militarize our border with Mexico. This will prevent the estimated 5 million illegal annual crossings into the U.S. Second, we need to launch a massive program to track down, detain, and (humanely) deport as many of the current illegal immigrants as we can, back to their home countries. This isn't a politically correct solution, but considering the massive debts our country is racking up, we need to cut costs as drastically as possible, and lets face it: illegal immigrants are a burden to society at large.

This should not be confused for legal immigrants, who are very good for our country, but illegals only.

[theOperaGhost]

If you enter and live in this country illegally, get the fuck out. Simple as that. If you can't legally come into this country, we don't want you here. The only things keeping you from coming into this country legally is either a criminal record or an extreme lack of education. The extreme lack of education can be fixed, and when you are educated and come legally into this country, FINE.

I cannot and will never support illegal immigration and will work as hard as possible to keep illegals out of this country.

[Deirdree.]

I wouldn't say I fully support it. But I disagree when people with a strong reason not to go back, are forced to leave.
I don't think it's fair when people are forced back when they mix so well with the community.

Take for example a teenage boy in my country who is being deported.
He left because his family we're being threatened.
Now the government are deporting him and his family back to his home country.
On the news, it showed how much hes mixed with the boys in his community.

I don't agree with the amount of people coming over for jobs when they had a job at home.

That's my View.

[Reality]

It's a really different case when it's children that have illegally immigrated because of their parents.

If a family illegally immigrated somewhere with a baby, and that baby grew up in a country, being educated there and mixing with the community, it'd seem really unfair to deport that child.

[boy.on.laptop]

[QUOTE=orangecounty;556711]I am 100% against illegal immigrants and the notion of them being allowed to stay in a country.

[Third, if a person is willing to "illegally" come here (remember, they are knowingly committing a crime), they are more likely to commit other crimes since they have shown their inability to adhere to federal laws by coming here in the first place. It has been shown that illegal immigrants, not legal ones, are more likely to be involved in drug trafficking with their home country, gangs, and other crimes. I totally disagree, illegal migrants will do whatever they can to aviod the authorities so they are not deported back home, Where is that shown?

Fourth, the LEGAL immigration system of the US encourages people to learn the language of the land. Most illegal immigrants do not learn the language, and it is very apparent here in Southern California (as we are close to the Mexico border). When immigration was primarily legal to the US from the 1700's to about the 1990's, all immigrants pretty much came here knowing English and if they didn't, they learned quickly. Now, it seems as if illegal immigrants who dominate Southern California refuse to learn English, which makes everything that much harder. thats a pretty narrow minded view that they refuse to learn english, learning another language sure isn't easy especially you are in a foreign land with people that if you speak to them in the wrong way you could risk being deported.

Fifthly, illegal immigration has essentially ruined the economy of the state of California. Remember, taxpayers have to pay for their kids to go to school, medication, trips to the hospital, etc. since they pay no taxes. It has been estimated that every four families in California also pay for the services for one illegal immigrant family. This is where you are most wrong, migrants provided very very cheap labour to corporations and businesses who turn a blind eye, California is one of the richest states in the US primarily for their exploitation of this cheap labour. They spend their little money on food which is taxed, the money the employment businesses make is taxed and lastly a recent study in TIME showed that the average illegal immigrant pays more in social security then they take... hence I would also question the authointicity of this source...


Seventhly, immigration quotas are set up for a reason in a country. They prevent the welfare system from being overburdened by newcomers looking to get on their feet, prevent schools from seeing surges of immigrants and experience overcrowding, prevent housing overcrowding by ensuring that too many immigrants do not flood given areas, and all the other problems that come when cities grow too fast (such as traffic, hospital occupancy, etc.). If we just allow unrestricted immigration in mass (as Los Angeles has largely experienced from illegal immigration), you face increased traffic, overburdened schools and hospitals, a bankrupt welfare system, and all the other problems I mentioned.America has one of the largest military forces in the world and a massive economy to back it up, if illegal migrants where really causing that much trouble don't you think they would do a little more to prevent migrants coming into the country and send others back? I know it is a large border to patrol but honestly there would be so many more effective options which the government doesn't explore simply because illegal immigrants do have a positivve effect on the economy!

[boy.on.laptop]

If you enter and live in this country illegally, get the fuck out. Simple as that. If you can't legally come into this country, we don't want you here. The only things keeping you from coming into this country legally is either a criminal record or an extreme lack of education. The extreme lack of education can be fixed, and when you are educated and come legally into this country, FINE.

I cannot and will never support illegal immigration and will work as hard as possible to keep illegals out of this country.

So in other words you are prepared to let people doe rather than let them enter 'the land of opportunites' as undoubtly your ancestors did even though they do were almost certainly uneducated...

People can't just get an education it takes a lot of work and MONEY which these people do not have.

[Zephyr]

This is a case of 'I don't hate you, I hate what you're doing.'
There are so many illegals here in Oregon, and they leach off of welfare,
Since they don't have a right to work here legally.
And lately the trend seems to be illegals knocking up fat, desperate women,
Just so that they can stay in the US.
I've seen this happen first hand on a few occasions with people I know.
The second the woman has the baby, daddy goes bye bye since he can now stay here.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again.
My ancestors did it legally,
So you can too.

[Church]

To me, if they get here illegally, I'm against it for the most part, but if there working a honest day work then they deserve to stay

[Atonement]

I am opposed to illegal immigration. But I am all for the immigration if it is legal. Just follow the process and it's all good in my book.

[Viral Death]

I think they should be shot and they need better borders

[Camazotz]

I think they should be shot and they need better borders

Do you honestly believe that shooting someone will solve the problem? Is coming to this country illegally so bad, they should be shot?

I agree that for economic reasons, we cannot support these workers. We should deal with our workers before them. However, their living conditions can make it extremely difficult to legally come to America. What these people are willing to sacrifice for the chance to become a citizen astounds me. They work for long hours and do manual labor every day for little pay. As humans, they deserve the right to come to "our" land and work for money.

[theOperaGhost]

So in other words you are prepared to let people doe rather than let them enter 'the land of opportunites' as undoubtly your ancestors did even though they do were almost certainly uneducated...

People can't just get an education it takes a lot of work and MONEY which these people do not have.

Public education is not expensive at all. And it takes a hell of a lot of work to get anywhere in life, buddy. Things don't come easily for people (unless they are born rich, which few people are). If they want to live in America, they can work at it and do so legally. If you live in America illegally, get the fuck out, either willingly or by force.

[akadrase]

My honest oppion is that illegal immigration is wrong. Illegals take jobs away from legal Americans, and with the reccesion in the economy that makes the unemployment rate of Americans skyrocket. All in all illegal immagration is BAD!

[Reality]

I think they should be shot and they need better borders
I love how extreme some peoples views are on things like this. :rolleyes:
You live in the U.S. which is a country that prides itself on human rights and freedoms, and its' past of immigration hence Statue of Liberty; "Bring me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free".

I bet you're one of those that, too, parades that stuff around and thinks the Iraq War = for freedom. Do you know how hypocritical that makes you sound?

It's one thing to be against illegal immigration, but suggesting that they should be shot is outrageously hypocritical.

[Bluearmy]

I am only going to talk about this from the U.S point of view because I am fairly ignorant of the rest of the world.
I for one am against Illegal Immigration.

Illegal Immigration causes so many problems for the country in question, plenty have been listed.

I for one however, support Immigration. I believe that the U.S should be land with it's arms wide open for people of every culture to come in, and add to the productivity and cultural diversity of the nation. However, it should only be done legally.

I believe that the legalization process should be made a-bit easier though.

[Triceratops]

I totally don't support it.

If the immigration is legally processed, that's fine.
However, if it's illegal they need to fucking leave.
Simple as.

[Capote]

Hello, I would like some feedback. I'm currently taking expository English, and I need your opinion for my research paper.

What are your views about Illegal Immigration?

Does Illegal Immigration Benefit A Country--U.S.A for example
If Illegal Immigration "contributes" to the U.S, should Illegal aliens deserve the right for citizenship?
Illegal Immigration--goods and bads?


Obviously, I live in the United States; therefore, all the questions refer to the U.S. However, If you live in a different country, just replace the "U.S.A" with your country!:usflag:

Thanks you guys!

[quartermaster]

I would first like to say that I am by no means a "nativist," and I believe that immigration laws within the United States (I will be addressing the U.S. in my points) should be reformed in-order to make legal immigration easier. However, I do not believe in illegal immigration, and I find many points within this thread flawed. I do not mean to single you out Deschain, but you make some assertions that I believe must be addressed.

We're all human beings. Perhaps some people should simply swallow their national pride and lend a hand to those less fortunate.

Swallow their pride? Do you honestly think that national pride is the fundamental issue involved with this?

The fact of the matter is that the influx of illegal immigrants within the Southern California areas (in particular) has begun to inundate the local infrastructure. A state such as California, which is already swamped in debt (as well as many of its cities), cannot afford a lot of the strain put unto local infrastructures by the influx of illegal immigrants.

What we are seeing is the overcrowding of schools and the swamping of the school’s resources as they struggle to advance American students, as well as have an extensive English learners and lower division program. As a kid who went through a Southern California public school system, and has been involved with my local school board, I can tell you firsthand how much of a problem illegal immigrants and their children are for the schools. Money that could be used on advancing natural-born students must be spread-out in order to accommodate the children of illegal immigrants. Essentially, the influx of illegal immigrant students brings down the curriculum of the schools and limits the attention that students have, as overcrowding persists and the local municipalities continue to lack the funds to deal with the problem. That is just one of the several issues that span from healthcare to welfare. It is not a matter of “pride” or being “heartless,” it is a simple matter of not having the funds or infrastructure to support them, while trying to provide services in their full effect to natural born citizens (beyond other factors, of course).

People illegally immigrate to the US because they will surely die in their homelands where money to survive is not abundant.

That is a fallacy in the form of a hasty generalization; though this may be true in many cases, it is not always a life-and-death situation, as many a time, people are just looking for a better life. Make no mistake, I am not saying that many of these people are not hard-pressed, and I do feel for them, but let us not overinflate the situation.

Another issue that has been addressed, but not thoroughly, is the fact that illegal immigrants, do indeed, take several jobs that would have otherwise been filled by a United States citizen. It has been said that illegals do the jobs that Americans “do not want to do,” and though that may be true in some cases, that is an overwhelming generalization. What many a time happens within areas with large immigrant populations is that illegal immigrants perform jobs that US citizens would otherwise do, however, since the illegals are willing to do it at a lower price (otherwise unreasonable price for US citizens trying to live above the poverty line), they are employed over US citizens.

Beyond basic jobs, many illegal immigrants create their own businesses that do minor construction and contracting (especially during the US housing boom of 2003-06) without the license to do so, and thus do the work for far under market value. Within that, many licensed US firms are not employed for construction jobs and struggle as a result, or the almost equally as likely result of being forced to go out of business. During such a recession in the U.S., skilled contracting takes a giant hit, as many individuals wanting a job done (such as a pool, patio, landscaping) are more inclined to hire the cheaper, less skilled, illegal immigrants. Indeed, illegal immigration does also affects the economy in several negative ways, most poignantly within border regions such as Southern California.

They already have no motivation to do it legally because for people in certain countries, it is unreasonably difficult to get the visa and paperwork needed.

We agree there, it is unreasonably difficult to immigrate to the United States, and that should change.

[Capote]

Thanks, man!

[Requin]

Threads merged.

[Reality]

What are your views about Illegal Immigration?
I'm mixed on the subject, from a humanitarian and moral point of view, I condone it, but from an economic and maybe even ethical point of view, I don't as much.

Does Illegal Immigration Benefit A Country--U.S.A for example?
Yes and No. (Explains below)

If Illegal Immigration "contributes" to the U.S, should Illegal aliens deserve the right for citizenship?
That's a hard one, in one way, if it contributes yes, but people who legally immigrate (to the USA as it's kinda the answer you're looking for) spend time, money and effort just to legally migrate, and then wait X number of years, to spend money and time again, to apply for U.S. Citizenship. It's unfair, really.

Illegal Immigration--goods and bads?

Goods:

* Illegal immigrants fled to a richer country, such as those in Europe, North America, and Australia to get a better lifestyle and earn more money. (A humanitarian view)

* Assuming the economy of the 'First World' is healthy, which it isn't at the moment, illegal immigrants will do all the menial jobs which the natives find undesirable (i.e. cleaning toilets) and will work for less money, in things like crisp factories and tomato plantations, which in turn results in such products being sold for cheaper, and it means clean toilets. :D But seriously, it helps the economy flowing when they're doing these low-wage/low-skill jobs.

* Taxes. Illegal immigrants, contrary to popular belief, pay taxes. They pay sales taxes, and if they own property, they also pay taxes from that.

Bads:

* It's unfair to those who legally immigrate. People who legally immigrate to their destination country pay fees for the process (the visa, lawyers, etc), and they wait a considerable amount of time, often years, before they're granted their visa. People who illegally immigrate disregard all of this.

* In a time of recession like now, many people in the First World are crawling for any job they can get, however in some situations, an illegal immigrant is hired over the Citizen, because s/he is willing to work for less money, it'd unreasonable and illegal to ask a Citizen to work for below the minimum wage, because the Citizen needs the money to run their house, etc.

* Over-population. If too many people illegally immigrate to a country, it causes an uncomfortably sharp increase in population, which leads to things like schools and hospitals being over-run and over-stretched.

* Crime. Illegal immigrants may turn to crime to make ends meet. They will rob stores, pick-pocket, etc. Just so they can get a sufficient amount of money. Some illegal immigrants, however, turn to less justified crimes, like rape, murder and car theft, but that is actually irrelevant, because that has nothing to do with their immigration/humanitarian status.

Hope I helped.

[YourFriend]

I actually support illegal migrations. Some people can't afford to do legal migrations.

[ZzKingz]

i am not really for it, because illegally moving here just to escape your problems isn't right. its handing off theirs to someone else.

Especially in our economy problems, when people lose their jobs, they can't get new ones because some immagrants came and took them.

I don't know much about this issue, though.

[Reality]

i am not really for it, because illegally moving here just to escape your problems isn't right. its handing off theirs to someone else.

Especially in our economy problems, when people lose their jobs, they can't get new ones because some immagrants came and took them.

I don't know much about this issue, though.
Escaping their problems? You mean the problems where they're starving to death, and being oppressed? :rolleyes:

You make it sound as if they illegally immigrate because they have created their own problems.

[bluestarkidd]

Legal or illegal they need to close the doors now, and I say that mainly because of the economic issues. A majority of the immigrants leech off the public service system and when they do make money they send a good chunk of it back their "home" country. This is another expense that we cannot handle. It's a great idea and I wish we could solve the worlds problems, but economically the US cannot afford it.

I see it like too many people are in the lifeboat, and if we keep letting people on we will sink and all drown. What good is that? We need to provide for our own people before we let everyone in here.

[JackOfClubs]

Legal or illegal they need to close the doors now, and I say that mainly because of the economic issues. A majority of the immigrants leech off the public service system and when they do make money they send a good chunk of it back their "home" country. This is another expense that we cannot handle. It's a great idea and I wish we could solve the worlds problems, but economically the US cannot afford it.

I see it like too many people are in the lifeboat, and if we keep letting people on we will sink and all drown. What good is that? We need to provide for our own people before we let everyone in here.
You can't base all immigrants on illegal immigrants. Most legal immigrants pay all taxes, bills, etc that are payed by the citizens of that country.In fact, if they are in the country for an indefinite amount of time, as my family and I are, they even pay taxes on a house in two different countries. We pay all the stuff that is necessary, so it makes no difference to the US economic system.

Again, i feel that you have based that statement on illegal immigrants only.

[Reality]

A majority of the immigrants leech off the public service system and when they do make money they send a good chunk of it back their "home" country.
Really? I'd like to see where you get "majority" from, because as far as I know, the "majority" of legal immigrants in the United States and other countries are only let in if they meet a certain criteria. That includes having valuable education and experience, which most of them use to work in their field in the USA. In fact, for one visa to the US, you actually need to have a job lined up there before you're even granted the visa.

The only people that would fit the "leech of the public service system" are illegal immigrants and refugees/asylum seekers, and possibly "Diversity Visa" Green Card Lottery winners, which is a terrible system, btw, because it gives thousands of random people with only a high school education a visa to move there, when there's thousands of others who have degrees and valuable experience earned, yet are placed behind on preference.

[quartermaster]

You can't base all immigrants on illegal immigrants. Most legal immigrants pay all taxes, bills, etc that are payed by the citizens of that country.In fact, if they are in the country for an indefinite amount of time, as my family and I are, they even pay taxes on a house in two different countries. We pay all the stuff that is necessary, so it makes no difference to the US economic system.

Again, i feel that you have based that statement on illegal immigrants only.

Agreed, immigrants are the United States' bread and butter, and they are one of the reasons today why we are not having major population problems in regard to a growing older population (as our baby boomers begin to retire en masse).

[bluestarkidd]

You can't base all immigrants on illegal immigrants. Most legal immigrants pay all taxes, bills, etc that are payed by the citizens of that country.In fact, if they are in the country for an indefinite amount of time, as my family and I are, they even pay taxes on a house in two different countries. We pay all the stuff that is necessary, so it makes no difference to the US economic system.

Again, i feel that you have based that statement on illegal immigrants only.

Ok, granted.. I may have overlooked that they may pay all the taxes, bills. etc. I just feel that at this point in time, and how this country is falling apart, why take the chances?

I think the real problem might just be the example we portray to the world and we don't need more people compounding that.

[Capote]

i am not really for it, because illegally moving here just to escape your problems isn't right. its handing off theirs to someone else.

Especially in our economy problems, when people lose their jobs, they can't get new ones because some immagrants came and took them.

I don't know much about this issue, though.

Seriously? Running away from their problems?
Hunny, It's spelled Immigrants.

According to one of my articles, Illegal Immigrants usually have jobs that are very labor intensive. In my opinion, if you can't find a job, stop making excuses and educate yourself. Jesus, instead of wasting time telling people that you are so "in need", enroll yourself in a vocational college.

[bluestarkidd]

Really? I'd like to see where you get "majority" from, because as far as I know, the "majority" of legal immigrants in the United States and other countries are only let in if they meet a certain criteria. That includes having valuable education and experience, which most of them use to work in their field in the USA. In fact, for one visa to the US, you actually need to have a job lined up there before you're even granted the visa.

The only people that would fit the "leech of the public service system" are illegal immigrants and refugees/asylum seekers, and possibly "Diversity Visa" Green Card Lottery winners, which is a terrible system, btw, because it gives thousands of random people with only a high school education a visa to move there, when there's thousands of others who have degrees and valuable experience earned, yet are placed behind on preference.

The majority are the ones illegally here. I agree with you about the so called "system" our government uses. They should look out for what is best for the country instead of making everything politically correct which has done unrepairable damage to this country and will be the death of it as we know it. The US is well on its way to becoming a 3rd world country and the whole game of being PC plays a huge role. So as a result we have these uneducated people who suck our system dry.

America was founded on immigrants, but there needs to be some balance and you have to close the gates or else everything will tank.

[Reality]

The majority are the ones illegally here. I agree with you about the so called "system" our government uses. They should look out for what is best for the country instead of making everything politically correct which has done unrepairable damage to this country and will be the death of it as we know it. The US is well on its way to becoming a 3rd world country and the whole game of being PC plays a huge role. So as a result we have these uneducated people who suck our system dry.
To be honest, many white and black Americans in the US are also welfare leeches. I'm sure you're familiar with "trailer park trash", so it'd be unfair to mount all the blame on immigrants.

The DV "Green Card Lottery" visa is a great idea from a humanitarian point of view. It gives people in many different countries a chance to immigrate to a First World nation (the United States in this case) if they're lucky. But it's a shitty system as well, the United States is already a diverse country, and why should someone get a visa just because they're from a different race? While people that immigrate with University education and good job experience are placed behind on preference.

America was founded on immigrants, but there needs to be some balance and you have to close the gates or else everything will tank.
Indeed. But nowadays, the United States is a prosperous First World country with a massive population of 300 million+.

People tend to forget that the US isn't in the "developing" phase anymore like it was pre-WWII and in the 1700's/1800's. Otherwise, it wouldn't have strict immigration laws.

I actually agree that using the excuse "America was founded by immigrants" is kind of void nowadays. What country in the world WASN'T founded by settlers or immigrants? People forget that human life started in Africa originally (or so the theory goes).

[ManyPearTree]

Soon we will start seeing cubans win the olympics..

Jk jk

I think it's very selfish for people to take benifits WE pay for..

[MykeSoBe]

Illegal immigrants are fully justified. Take Italy, for example; there are hundreds of thousands of Romani (Gyspy) immigrants. Italy doesn't return these people back to Romania, Hungary, Albania, or wherever else they came from; instead, there are many ramshackle camps where these Romani reside. It's a very sad sight to bear. But it's a different story with the North African immigrants, who cross the Mediterranean from such countries as Libya, Tunisia, and Egypt; many of them get deported back to their proper nation. All in all, though, these people emigrated because they were in search of a dream.

[boy.on.laptop]

I think it's very selfish for people to take benifits WE pay for..

We are talking about illegal immigrants here who can only claim a very small amount/if any benefits from the States because they are not United States' citizens. Further more saying what 'we' pay for is pretty arogant there are millions of illegal immigrants that pay more into social security then they get back which many studies have backed up.

Further more I am sick of reading comments that say I oppose illegal immigration as a recent TIME article said when your a politican whose sole purpose is to hold up and legislate the law saying you oppose something really means nothing. I too would oppose illegal immigration to spite being consided on the far-left in the American political spectrum. I would ask you this though if the United States is the most powerful country in the world with the latest survellience technology can you truly tell me that if Illegal immigrants were a total drain on the economy and the US had no humanitarian reasons for keeping these people in their country that the government wouldn't throw them out?

[boy.on.laptop]

Yeah public education is so inexpensive that is why California has recently made massive cuts to all non-core subject areas and why the majority of the population in this planet goes without an education. After spending 13 years in the public education system and topping most of my class, I think I know life takes a bit of work buddy. I have grown up in a family in which my parents have never received any benefits and who’s ancestors migrated to New Zealand legally. I am simply saying that many, in fact most in this world do not have the facilities to migrate to the western world. One classic example is the Tempra affair in Australia, the Australian government refused to except refugees who were practically dying at sea, eventually New Zealand accepted them and one of the refugees recently came third in an national spelling bee competition to spite English being his second language and lack of education prior to arriving in New Zealand. Migrants when given the chance can be our biggest asset.
As a Christian I am still totally amazed by the huge number of people who claim to be Christians yet are die hard narrowed minded American nationalists. Whats with ‘God bless America', how often do you hear ‘God Bess Canada or France etc.’ why not ‘God bless the world’?! Even myself as a very patriotic New Zealander believes that God loves us all equally whether we are black, white, Afgani, American, Jewish or Iraqi as the bible frequently tells us. Do you think Jesus would approve of Christians preventing people from receiving an education, home, clean water and food? Or shooting people at the border as others have suggested?
Or to the non-Christians among us do you really think FDR, Teddy Roosevelt and Abraham Lincoln, often named in the top 5 presidents would support illegal migrants being shot at the border?
How do these migrants differ from those leaving Britain in the 17th-19th Century, again it was not a life or death situation for them but they were simply escaping oppression with the vision of improving their lives.

[quartermaster]

Whats with ‘God bless America', how often do you hear ‘God Bess Canada or France etc.’ why not ‘God bless the world’?! Even myself as a very patriotic New Zealander believes that God loves us all equally whether we are black, white, Afgani, American, Jewish or Iraqi as the bible frequently tells us. Do you think Jesus would approve of Christians preventing people from receiving an education, home, clean water and food? Or shooting people at the border as others have suggested?
Or to the non-Christians among us do you really think FDR, Teddy Roosevelt and Abraham Lincoln, often named in the top 5 presidents would support illegal migrants being shot at the border?


As opposed to "God save the Queen?" or PM Stephen Harper saying, "God Bless Canada?"

They are not saying "God bless America...and no one else," they are simply saying that they pray America is blessed, as it is their home. It is completely understandable because people are going to naturally hope/pray that their country flourishes, and thus, many acknowledge that if their country flourishes it is through the blessings of their God. The idea of "God bless..." is actually a biblical principle that goes back to the Children of Israel in their hopes that God will bless their nation, over others, especially those that would wish them harm. The slogan is not malicious nor meant to somehow imply that only the certain country/ state is to be blessed (I've heard "God Bless California," does that somehow mean they are selfish or don't wish for God to bless America?), it simply implies that they hope for their country’s continued prosperity, or simply that their country needs help (implying only God can do this).

Nonetheless, I have strayed incredibly off topic...

[scuba steve]

it just causes problems send them back. i know it sounds bad but im a stubborn jackass anyway they arn't on that countries database they don't know they exist and they overpopulate an already overpopulated country not really benifitting it.

[JJSSHH]

I dont think people should illegally immigrate to the united states........ people are just walking over the border and i hate that

[scuba steve]

I dont think people should illegally immigrate to the united states........ people are just walking over the border and i hate that

not at the minute they arn't have you seen some of the crazy shit tech they've got on the USA - Mexico border? heatsensor missiles and the whole shabang and also you make it sound like your the only place this is happening to. it's a global problem

[thedudeman]

i know a lot of kids who came here illegally, i am 100% ok with illegal immigration, and personally don't give a **** about the economy if people are suffering in other countries so we can be rich and happy, my mom hires a house cleaner because shes always working and i talk with her and help her clean MY house, its pathetic how you <removed offensive stuff> hate these illegal immigrants but have mexicans cleaning your house and cutting your grass and treat em like there less then human, if you really cant do it yourself for whatever reason, talk to them and be there friend, there on the same level as you and there doing YOUR work, if it were up to me i would do all these chores myself but my moms convinced she needs it, i dont understand it this is her house and me and her should be keeping it together, anyway, these people are poor, tired and in need of a new hope, my ancestors came here from mexico and had all there hispanic names removed and turned white, peoples lives are horrible in mexico, its dirty and unsafe, i have a friend from leon who says kids get killed on the street with no kind of reprocussions, would you wait a second to get out of that situation? why dont you go walk a mile in there shoes, youll see so much differently, especially you orangecounty, just your name and location says it all, maybe im biast by having friends who came here legally, you guys form opinions about this yet have never met or became friends with an illegal immigrant, discover hell before you judge the people who live through it, if it were up to me i would give half of my moms money to the needy and move to a poorer area, i dont need everything i have even though my house isnt that great anyway, in fact its pretty crappy, but i could live with less because there are people who have ten times less then me that serve my neighbors and other rich kids who would report them in a second to the INS

[The Batman]

Let's not turn this into a race thing.

[computerwizard]

I would never be in favor of denying anyone access to the land of the free, because our Constitution claims that all men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights (life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness). I welcome all immigrants, but they need to go about it the right way. When people break the law and take advantage of other people, they hurt what this country stands for. We are all about supporting one another and standing united. It seems a bit ridiculous for someone to take advantage of us that way. They should do the right thing and I'll be glad to support them!

[boy.on.laptop]

Hey don’t get me wrong I have just us much a problem with God Bless the Queen or God Bless Canada, however they are both rarities (especially the latter) compared to God Bless America. Further more I do not have a problem with nationalism or the use of the term to an extent, I believe you did not fully understand my comment, apologizes for not making myself clearer. However when it becomes so overused that people are prepared to use nationalism at the extent of others that is when it bothers me. A bit of nationalism is healthy especially in areas of sport etc. But when nations start to see themselves as superior, ignorant to the exterior world and are prepared to put lifestyles and money for their country ahead of humanity as many in the United States have done I believe there becomes a problem with “God Bless America.”
Just on the other extreme though I do not want to get into PC craziness with people refusing to use the term God in reference to the States. In fact I admire America for its embracing Christianity into public office however as stated previously nationalism should not be allowed to get to a point where it harms others eg. support of the Iraq war

[scuba steve]

i believe that in some cases the U.S.A can be a bit strict on who they let in. But i agree with it being more tight in European countries like U.K or Luxemburg, since they are so small. so small that they can not afford to let all these immigrants in that are asking to gain entrance. It is reducing the standard of living for all its own nationals that where born there.
For example a recent study has shown that the U.K has the smallest newly built houses in Europe and even in the world. With the U.S.A having the highest. I would agree that the U.S.A probably has the best standard of living out of most countries and a quire bit of land still left free to use. Maybe even the equivalent of a couple U.Ks. So there isn't really the need for them to be stricter than britain.
But in the defence of non-immagration. Alot of these immigrants coming in are not benifiting that society in which they are joining. So why let in a load of most likely will turn working class people in who some may just go straight onto benefits, taking the tax payers money.
I can back this up from viewing all of the new Eastern European immigrants that have come into my own hometown, because they have just joined the EU allowing them to travel to any European country without Question. And what are they doing? Selling the daily telegraph on street corners, which frogive me, simply reminds me of those Victorean London movies you watch with the poor kid selling newspapers on the street. they are benefitting the country in no way, taking up space and most likely have taken benefits too taking money away from many other things that the local council to the area could be funding. like better recycling strategies or local go green projects. to name a just few off the top off my head.

And now my rants over... Feel free to criticise or agree.

[liveyoungdiefast]

Everyone of any political ideology thinks something needs to be done about the system. Some say build a wall, some say reform the process, some say have free borders. But no one thinks how it has been done lately is working.

I think what is important is to keep the debate about how we can best fix the system.

However, saying illegal immigrants are 'wrong' is the ultimate naivety. It is in human nature to do what benefits yourself, and those who are important to you. You would do the same thing if you had no choice. They are doing what any human would do, we just happen to be on the greener side of the grass, so we have a hard time understanding it sometimes.


Just on the other extreme though I do not want to get into PC craziness with people refusing to use the term God in reference to the States. In fact I admire America for its embracing Christianity into public office however as stated previously nationalism should not be allowed to get to a point where it harms others eg. support of the Iraq war

That has nothing to do with being PC. Atheists aren't worried about being offended. Atheists are worried about being subjugated and having their liberties drained away.
Please don't double post~Empty Misery

[scuba steve]

Yeah public education is so inexpensive that is why California has recently made massive cuts to all non-core subject areas and why the majority of the population in this planet goes without an education. After spending 13 years in the public education system and topping most of my class, I think I know life takes a bit of work buddy. I have grown up in a family in which my parents have never received any benefits and who’s ancestors migrated to New Zealand legally. I am simply saying that many, in fact most in this world do not have the facilities to migrate to the western world. One classic example is the Tempra affair in Australia, the Australian government refused to except refugees who were practically dying at sea, eventually New Zealand accepted them and one of the refugees recently came third in an national spelling bee competition to spite English being his second language and lack of education prior to arriving in New Zealand. Migrants when given the chance can be our biggest asset.
As a Christian I am still totally amazed by the huge number of people who claim to be Christians yet are die hard narrowed minded American nationalists. Whats with ‘God bless America', how often do you hear ‘God Bess Canada or France etc.’ why not ‘God bless the world’?! Even myself as a very patriotic New Zealander believes that God loves us all equally whether we are black, white, Afgani, American, Jewish or Iraqi as the bible frequently tells us. Do you think Jesus would approve of Christians preventing people from receiving an education, home, clean water and food? Or shooting people at the border as others have suggested?
Or to the non-Christians among us do you really think FDR, Teddy Roosevelt and Abraham Lincoln, often named in the top 5 presidents would support illegal migrants being shot at the border?
How do these migrants differ from those leaving Britain in the 17th-19th Century, again it was not a life or death situation for them but they were simply escaping oppression with the vision of improving their lives.


things where alot loosely run back then. so it didn't really matter. but now a days we like keeping books on who is who and if your not on the register that will beat the system that governments have worked so hard to create. it's just like when i went on holiday to the states they took every detail appart from where do you go to buy your shoes. they have my prints on file my photo so why should they be differant. As alot of illegal immigrants come to countries soley to start crime, so you see it's also quite handy to keep everyone in your territory on record

[boy.on.laptop]

That has nothing to do with being PC. Atheists aren't worried about being offended. Atheists are worried about being subjugated and having their liberties drained away.
Please don't double post~Empty Misery

Did I mention atheists? no. I know in most western countries chrisitan messages are withheld from the speeches and testimonies of politicans due primarilly to the fear of insulting other religions primarily Islam. I do not have any thing against Muslims only that Western politicans seem to appease them often in the name of 'liberty and democracy' to prop up some of the least democratic nations in the world such as Saudi Arabia. I think that is far more a threat to Atheists liberties then a few Christan messages.

Any way back to immigration..........

[Standard Stick]

i believe in strong border control.

[Magus]

Well, it is illegal after all.

For my personal experience, we hail from a low income family. But even so, we did legally passed our visa, passports and travel expenses.

If you are to travel, you better arm your self beforehand and no illegally transport to where ever you go.

Every day 10 of peoples are caught for having expired valid stay here, so they are deemed illegal. They caught one Iranian man here, he had his ID card from back in 86.

Funny, no?

You have to pay for your stay, nothing much will bother you here, no taxes and no nothing.

Pay, your transfer Visa. And another thing is that you are dependent on which ruling you came here. If you are a maid, you are a maid and if you are a driver then you are a driver. There is no other Job to apply.

But, if your supporter(Those Gulfian guys) allows you stay and changed your status to transferable visa, then you are ok to go.

Life is tough here in Gulf, they make sure their money is not sucked empty.

[ltimm]

I think that the illegal immigrants here should be able to become a citizen. I think that there should be less border control. This earth isn't here for everybody to own. anybody from anywhere should be able to come to the US with no questions asked.

"So, you want to come to America?"
"Yes."
"Well, welcome."

This country was founded on freedom and civil liberties. If people can't see that, well, then...

[Magus]

I think that the illegal immigrants here should be able to become a citizen. I think that there should be less border control. This earth isn't here for everybody to own. anybody from anywhere should be able to come to the US with no questions asked.

False, not after 9-11.

[ltimm]

Wellobvioudly if they're coming from the middle east , look for any connections to the taliban or al-queda

[Magus]

Wellobvioudly if they're coming from the middle east , look for any connections to the taliban or al-queda

Look for any connections to the taliban or al-qaeda? (Not queda)

This gave me a lol, seriously.

Funny, the only Muslims are not in the middle east, South-East/Asia has the largest Muslim population and there are even more larger Extremist groups that are from there and not Middle East.

You see, Middle East is not as Extremist muslim as you think.

Any Muslim is a suspect. How do you know if a person has a connection, hm?

They will just pick any random Muslim person and then they will just say his a terrorist, it is a common sight.

That's why America would be the last place I would go, not because I am a Muslim, but the region I hail from/ Not Middle either.

Do you want to contradict the fact that America is not a Muslim friendly?

Proves with reference please.

I am debating with you on your quote now.

"So, you want to come to America?"
"Yes."
"Well, welcome."

====

It's a debate, nothing personal . OK hun :D

[ltimm]

I'm just saying that if somebody wants to move somewhere else, who are we to stop them no matter where they're from or what race they are!

[Magus]

I'm just saying that if somebody wants to move somewhere else, who are we to stop them no matter where they're from or what race they are!

Don't Divert, we are talking about U.S and its procedure in filtering out people who are Muslims and or from ME.

They(Mu/ME) wanted to move there for a living and even some for education. But instead, they ended up in Jails. Because being Muslim and or from Middle East and with an Arabic name they cannot spell very well.

[ltimm]

Well, since you say the us is not a Muslim friendly country yet they are not the most discriminated against group. Atheists are.

I say the middle east because that's who we are at war with. I know there are slot of Muslims in Africa and other areas of the world.

And when peopl point to a Muslim and say terroist that just shows how ignorant and judgemental us Americans are.

[Magus]

Well, since you say the us is not a Muslim friendly country yet they are not the most discriminated against group. Atheists are.

I say the middle east because that's who we are at war with. I know there are slot of Muslims in Africa and other areas of the world.

And when peopl point to a Muslim and say terroist that just shows how ignorant and judgemental us Americans are.

Again false, Atheist are not the most discriminated against people. Muslims are, they have reputes all around the world. In India for example, Hindus are the majority and the minority are Muslims, they are still discriminated against(Muslims).

I know how athiest are getting critiqued by other religious groups. But atheist have their share of critiquing the only other religion and that's Islam.

Take Denmark for example. 92% of the population are atheist, yet they disgustingly portraits of the Icon of Muslims.

Let us see back in the 1950's, a civil occurred between the groups.

It is also a fail for Muslim to think that the world bow to their Islamic laws. Those are just hypocrites.

And Sikhs end up in the suffering. People catch them and persecute them, because they wear turbans. While the ignorant blindness blinds them the fact that Muslim don't wear turbans.

I admit in Quran it is written that some groups are to be killed, the critiques just takes that point and neglect other major factor for the reason of such words written in the Quran. And just pass it over to all who hate Islam.

Look at Obama now, people voted him and now they hate him, and because his name is Barack and Obama. I assure you he is more or less atheist and not muslim.

Few groups who were aligned with the government just ruined the name.

They are hypocrites i.e Al-Qaeda. Taliban fights for another cause.

Look at Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, I hail from the same region as him.

As soon as I enter America, I am sure they will greet me with the random checks of their. And end up sitting in the cell next to my peer(the said person).

I doubt there aren't at least two or three who hates Islam.

You believe in what Media shows, media lies, even AL-Jazeera and Al-Arabiya are full of lies.

Look! I got a green card, I amma go to U.S now.

America won't say.

Hello and welcome to America.
The land of dreams(or something)

And just, but.

Your name is Faris Aref?
No, my name is Farisky Arefikov, I am albanian. << Passport says something else, no.

Here is a truth I will launch now.

I am from Baluchistan and I hate Pakistan and Iran, yet I hold both of their passports, of course, they took our country.

Ok, enough of U.S and let us talk about Iran for now.

Iran hates us, Balochs.

(Go here to see the history of Baluchs >>> CLICK ME!! (http://www.balochwarna.com/modules/mastop_publish/?tac=who_Are_Baloch%3F))

Iran don't accepts us as labor, but sworn enemies. In the days of yore, we sure are the one who hit hard on those cats. But due to their advanced civilization, they got us now.

If I go there and Say I am Baloch and I am Sunni, the execution room it is.

That Khalid Sheikh would've been better be in the Baloch liberation frontier than that Al-Qaida.

That's all for now.

[ltimm]

Here's the link to show where Muslims and atheists rate. http://atheism.about.com/od/atheistbigotryprejudice/a/AtheistSurveys.htm

[Magus]

Here's the link to show where Muslims and atheists rate. http://atheism.about.com/od/atheistbigotryprejudice/a/AtheistSurveys.htm

Have you read the rest of the Post?

[ltimm]

I'm on my iPod and it won't let me get on that page so il have to get back to you tomorrow. But yeah that page pretty much shows you the breakdown.

[Kitty Purry]

Me personally think that this is AMERICA and if you want to come here you need to be a U.S. Citizen. Yes they are coming for jobs but guess whos jobs there stealing (our own people so why do that). It would be a different siituation if we werent in a economic depression right now but we are, and right now our people need help. So do others but we need to help our own people first.

[Magus]

Me personally think that this is AMERICA and if you want to come here you need to be a U.S. Citizen. Yes they are coming for jobs but guess whos jobs there stealing (our own people so why do that). It would be a different siituation if we werent in a economic depression right now but we are, and right now our people need help. So do others but we need to help our own people first.

Stealing Jobs? What the F' is stealing JOB!

Alright, saw this in a comedy show by Peter Russell on how Indian immigrants *air quoting*"Steal" those jobs; like a Cab driver and what not.

Well, I pity your economic depression. I think the Gulf countries are not suffering from that, much.

Look at the new Tower they made despite horrendous loses. If they had been different people, that tower would have continued in 6 years later on.

Here, they want immigrants to work for them and not themselves, so I guess things are diffrent.

I am talking exclusively about Arabian Gulf countries and not the whole Middle East.

Because, of course they made this unity group called G.C.C(Gulf cooperation council) Even the country Oman, who doesn't have exports like crude oil and NCG, but they are still damned rich.

[boy.on.laptop]

Look at Obama now, people voted him and now they hate him, and because his name is Barack and Obama. I assure you he is more or less atheist and not muslim.



Actually he is a christian and I highly doubt the reason people hate him because of his name... Not that I believe people now hate him, sure his approval ratings have declined but nothing extraordinary for a first term liberal left-leaning president.