Third World Countries

[Sapphire]

Why aren't we doing more to help them?
Why are we so concerned with what goes on inside our borders but real issues abroad are of little concern to us?
Why don't we put more emphasis on the thousands who die each day due to lack of food/clean water and less emphasis on sport?
We are all people with the same basic needs.

How can leaving them in such squalor without much concern be justified?

[Sage]

How can leaving them in such squalor without much concern be justified?

It's not. People are ignorant and do not fully grasp what life is like in other countries.

[Sapphire]

And people don't know because our governments and press aren't interested.

It's despicable.

[Hyper]

Justification; none

Main reason; profitable business

[Maverick]

Maybe the helping is part of the problem here. Just giving people tons of money doesn't allow a viable economy to be created.

Also I think the IMF has a lot to blame for third world countries continually to do so poorly. They give loans that are impossible for the government to pay back so they take the country's natural resources as collateral. So not only are they putting them further in debt, they are exploiting their natural resources which could have been used for growing the economy.

Also the IMF will often force a country to devalue its own currency in order to receive loans which in turn makes everyone poorer when the value of their money is down.

Maybe instead of looking at how come we aren't doing enough, we look at what have we done and are outside interventions and policies making it worse for them.

[Sapphire]

Ant, I agree that monetary donations are not enough. It is too easy for corrupt officials to prevent the money going towards bettering the quality of life of the citizens.

But the governments don't think beyond money and military. They consider giving and do give money (but not enough) and then they consider going in with an army. But nothing really in between. They should be looking at alternatives. Putting that money into the Red Cross, Amnesty International or similiar organisations would be better as they can get more done.

[sebbie]

Why aren't we doing more to help them?
Why are we so concerned with what goes on inside our borders but real issues abroad are of little concern to us?
Why don't we put more emphasis on the thousands who die each day due to lack of food/clean water and less emphasis on sport?
We are all people with the same basic needs.

How can leaving them in such squalor without much concern be justified?

It cant be justified that people are dying of starvation in poor countries and people are dying from obesity in richer countries.

I think one of the main problems is that people are distant away from it, poverty very rarely makes it onto the news, we usually on see and hear about it in charity adverts. A lack of awareness of the extent of poverty.

Also the world is a very self centred place in my opinion, people will generally act in their best interests [Not true of everyone but I would say the majority]. Attitudes like "Why should we care about someone we have never met etc"

[Whisper]

I don't give a fuck about them
they're lucky we give them anything at all right now and speaking as a Canadian we do quite a bit to aid the 3rd world
we're facing the largest economic recession since the great depression, we need to focus on our own

I want all of Canada's aid money to go to Canadian's
the thousands that have lost there jobs are losing there homes
Can't afford to feed themselves or their kids
The healthcare system thats collapsing
the desperately needed maintenance and upgrades to the infostructure connecting 32million (same population as California really) across the second largest country on the planet

WHEN Canada is strong again then by all means spend millions upgrading DART's capabilities send out wave after wave of peace keepers what canadians are known for and very good at
build schools, wells, housing, etc...

But take care of our own first

Canada can only help the 3rd world if we remain a productive first world nation

29,000 children starve to death everyday
I can't do anything about that its been that way for 21yrs that I know of
were not going to be able to save them if we can't save our economy and citizens first
we need the money and recourses in order to stand a hope in hell of change

and they have to WANT IT most African and middle eastern nations have no interest in our help
fine
they dont want it I won't push it onto them
that just causes our guys to get killed

[Φρανκομβριτ]

people aren't ignorant. We just don't care. Apparently money is the most important thing in the world

[pkid]

I totally agree. The world is caught up in the things that only matter to them, but we never really look at what others are going through.

[AllThatIsLeft]

I don't give a fuck about them
they're lucky we give them anything at all right now and speaking as a Canadian we do quite a bit to aid the 3rd world
we're facing the largest economic recession since the great depression, we need to focus on our own

I want all of Canada's aid money to go to Canadian's
the thousands that have lost there jobs are losing there homes
Can't afford to feed themselves or their kids
The healthcare system thats collapsing
the desperately needed maintenance and upgrades to the infostructure connecting 32million (same population as California really) across the second largest country on the planet

WHEN Canada is strong again then by all means spend millions upgrading DART's capabilities send out wave after wave of peace keepers what canadians are known for and very good at
build schools, wells, housing, etc...

But take care of our own first

Canada can only help the 3rd world if we remain a productive first world nation

29,000 children starve to death everyday
I can't do anything about that its been that way for 21yrs that I know of
were not going to be able to save them if we can't save our economy and citizens first
we need the money and recourses in order to stand a hope in hell of change

and they have to WANT IT most African and middle eastern nations have no interest in our help
fine
they dont want it I won't push it onto them
that just causes our guys to get killed

I second that.

[theOperaGhost]

I don't give a fuck about them
they're lucky we give them anything at all right now and speaking as a Canadian we do quite a bit to aid the 3rd world
we're facing the largest economic recession since the great depression, we need to focus on our own

I want all of Canada's aid money to go to Canadian's
the thousands that have lost there jobs are losing there homes
Can't afford to feed themselves or their kids
The healthcare system thats collapsing
the desperately needed maintenance and upgrades to the infostructure connecting 32million (same population as California really) across the second largest country on the planet

WHEN Canada is strong again then by all means spend millions upgrading DART's capabilities send out wave after wave of peace keepers what canadians are known for and very good at
build schools, wells, housing, etc...

But take care of our own first

Canada can only help the 3rd world if we remain a productive first world nation

29,000 children starve to death everyday
I can't do anything about that its been that way for 21yrs that I know of
were not going to be able to save them if we can't save our economy and citizens first
we need the money and recourses in order to stand a hope in hell of change

and they have to WANT IT most African and middle eastern nations have no interest in our help
fine
they dont want it I won't push it onto them
that just causes our guys to get killed

I third that.

Now I have a similar question.

Why are some people so concerned with people in third world countries when there are people within our own borders that are just as bad off? A nation should be helping it's own citizens before helping citizens of a foreign nation.

[Hyper]

I third that.

Now I have a similar question.

Why are some people so concerned with people in third world countries when there are people within our own borders that are just as bad off? A nation should be helping it's own citizens before helping citizens of a foreign nation.

Its the type of people that care more for animals than people ( a bit of a bad comparison ) however it plays out the same way

[theOperaGhost]

Its the type of people that care more for animals than people ( a bit of a bad comparison ) however it plays out the same way

Those people annoy me...I love animals, but I don't value them over people. I have strayed slightly off topic, but oh well. It just annoys me that there are people who would rather aid the 3rd world countries than their own country. Fucking fend for your own damn self.

[Sapphire]

Where am I saying to be completely selfless in this? Yes, I think we should do more for these countries but not while completely ignoring our own people.

Jared, show me the thousands who die from AIDs everyday in the USA, the UK or Canada.
Show me the thousands of people who are dying from drinking dirty water in these countries.
Show me the people who are shot down in the street for expressing their freedom of speech in these first world countries.

Yes, an increasing number of people are becoming homeless in developed countries. But the effects of this recession are hitting the poorest people harder than the richer. This mess was created by the richer countries and unless we help these people now we will recover but they will be left in horrific circumstances.

The whole argument that we need to sort our own countries out before we help is bull. People have been saying that for decades. The recession is just a handy example that we can now give to try to justify our disinterest and lack of concern. We need to find a way through this that will benefit everybody and not just our select countries.

These people do want help. They want to be able to have access to food, clean water and a safe home.
Who wouldn't?

[AllThatIsLeft]

Everytime i walk downtown i see at least 5 homeless kids, and i'm sure it's not just 5 kids that are homeless, without shelter, food, or water.

Yes we should take care for our own first, because they are still suffering from the same lack as those in a third-world country.
You can't help someone one, if you can't help your yourself.
That goes for countries as well.

[Sapphire]

There is always someone in a developed country who needs help. There were 10 years ago, there are now and there still will be in another 10 years. It's a convenient excuse when idleness is challenged.

http://report2009.amnesty.org/sites/report2009.amnesty.org/files/documents/air09-foreword-en.pdf

[Zephyr]

Fourthing what Cody said.

It isn't about being greedy, we need to take care of ourselves first, then once we stabilize, go beyond our borders. I know it's a pretty stupid comparison, but this is pretty basic looking at Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Right now, we need to take care of the orange area due to declining economies. You can't help others properly until you are stable yourself.

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff212/alnguyen386/needs_hierachy.jpg

Banks here that got bailout money all sent it overseas when they were supposed to use it to bail themselves out. NOT healthy for a failing bank in a declining economy.

Personally, I'd love to donate and sponsor a starving child or be able to donate more, but I just can't afford it. I'm more concerned with how I'm going to make it vs. somebody else when I can't even afford to move out on my own, but have a timetable of when my parents want me out due to their own financial struggles. Right now, it's about keeping your head above water, not drowning yourself to save a country that is going to take years and possibly decades to reform, if they can at all.

No matter where you go, there IS going to be poverty, it's just the natural order of things and there's not much we can do about it just quite yet.

[Sapphire]

Again, I am not saying that we shouldn't look after our own countries. I'm saying that we can and should help these other countries more as well as helping our own countries.

[Zephyr]

Yes, we can and should help more, I agree.
But firstly, I'd like to get this taken care of before China decides to ask 'where's the money?'...

http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

[Sapphire]

Is that the price you are putting on human life then?

[Zephyr]

No.
It's putting my well being before somebody else's before mine gets jeopardized.
Secure me first, help somebody else later.

[Sapphire]

And if they die in the mean time, to hell with it?

[chazzrox2]

Our countries do not havethe resources to support ourselves...if third world countries developed to the same point even we may find we will suffer from starvation

Btw i dont condone this idea tis just a very interesting and quite worrying point

[Zephyr]

Like I've said before, poverty is everywhere,
It's a fact of life that will never be efaced.
Not everybody can be saved.

But once we can better ourselves to assure our own stability,
Then we can begin to help others.

I'm not being heartless,
I'm being realistic.

[sebbie]

Anyone else come across the economist Malthus and his theories about sustainability. He suggested that one of the main causes of poverty is that population is increasing faster than the rate of resources which are needed to support the population.

He then goes on to say that we should no interfere and let those who die, die. This will cause the population to fall back to the sustainable level.

[Sapphire]

Our countries do not havethe resources to support ourselves...if third world countries developed to the same point even we may find we will suffer from starvation

Btw i dont condone this idea tis just a very interesting and quite worrying pointOur economy needs a complete restructure to get us out of this mess and to prevent such a situation from occurring in the not-so-distant future. While we are restructuring our economy we can work on helping these people in satisfying some of their basic human needs.

Like I've said before, poverty is everywhere,
It's a fact of life that will never be efaced.
Not everybody can be saved.

But once we can better ourselves to assure our own stability,
Then we can begin to help others.

I'm not being heartless,
I'm being realistic.And when will that be? In 10 years when the economy is looking stronger? In a couple of decades when right-wing parties are negligable in size?

The standard response from people on this topic for at least the past 10 years has been "We have problems in our own country that need sorting first". Continuing to hide behind it isn't going to lead to good things.

[theOperaGhost]

What the fuck are we hiding behind? The fact that we have problems that should be fixed before aiding third world countries? I simply am never going to put people in third world countries before the people in my own country...NEVER. It isn't our problem, so fuck them.

[AllThatIsLeft]

It isn't our responsability to save them. We already do them a big favour by helping at all.
It saddens me that people have to die, but that is the way of life.

The concept of the survival of the fittest.

the damage in those countries is too grand, helping them could mean sacrificing ourselves for them.

I am not ready to give up my own people for people that may not even be saved.

[Zephyr]

True equality is NEVER going to exist.
The only way that will ever happen is if EVERY country decided to become Communist,
Which I never see happening.
Humans are a self serving creature by nature,
So of course we're going to cover out asses before somebody else.

A big problem in such countries is guerrilla warfare and tyranny,
And that would cost a lot of money to go in and extinguish it with our forces.
We've all seen how much it's cost to go in and try to help Iraq.
Now if we poured that money into ALL third world countries,
I can safely say that all nations would collapse due to debt and bankruptcy.

What's to hide behind?
Logic and realism?
I think not.

[Hyper]

True equality is NEVER going to exist.
The only way that will ever happen is if EVERY country decided to become Communist,
Which I never see happening.
Humans are a self serving creature by nature,
So of course we're going to cover out asses before somebody else.

A big problem in such countries is guerrilla warfare and tyranny,
And that would cost a lot of money to go in and extinguish it with our forces.
We've all seen how much it's cost to go in and try to help Iraq.
Now if we poured that money into ALL third world countries,
I can safely say that all nations would collapse due to debt and bankruptcy.

What's to hide behind?
Logic and realism?
I think not.

[INTERRUPTION WITH NO RELEVANCY TO THE DEBATE ((i are sorry))]

Steph that is incorrect.. Communism is in general a failure in all categories, well not all but the idea is flawed.

Humans will never be materially equal..

[Zephyr]

Yes, Communism is a failure, this I know.
Henceforth why I don't ever see the world being Communist.
People will always want to be 'better' than others,
Which is the main reason why it hasn't and will never work out.

[Neverender]

Yes, Communism is a failure, this I know.
Henceforth why I don't ever see the world being Communist.
People will always want to be 'better' than others,
Which is the main reason why it hasn't and will never work out.

Well when Marx was thinking this up, it was thought to be a perfect utopia. However, its much harder to enact a perfect Utopia then it is to think one up. (I.E. Poor Leadership, Unsettlement in the masses)

Why aren't we doing more to help them?
Why are we so concerned with what goes on inside our borders but real issues abroad are of little concern to us?
Why don't we put more emphasis on the thousands who die each day due to lack of food/clean water and less emphasis on sport?
We are all people with the same basic needs.


The simple answer to all of these questions, is that the 1st World Countries are Narcissistic. I would go on, but i must sleep once in a while.

[Perseus]

To be honest, it isn't America's fault that Africa has a horrible economy and such. When Europe colonized Africa, they took a lot of the resources in the countries that they inhabited. If anything, Europe should be trying and to fix what has happened to Africa; America has its own poverty it needs to deal with.

[Sapphire]

Why can't anyone see that I am NOT saying we should put these people before ourselves? Why can't anyone seem to accept that I am stating that we have the chance to help them while SIMULTANEOUSLY helping our own countries?
It isn't our responsability to save them. We already do them a big favour by helping at all.
It saddens me that people have to die, but that is the way of life.

The concept of the survival of the fittest.

the damage in those countries is too grand, helping them could mean sacrificing ourselves for them.

I am not ready to give up my own people for people that may not even be saved.Do you know what survival of the fittest actually entails?
It has nothing to do with people being forced out of their homes by armed militia. Survival of the fittest has nothing to do with governments using food as a weapon. It has nothing to do with people being shot in the street for having an opinion.

And yet again, I am not saying that we should put them in front of our own countries. We should be doing a lot more for them is what I am saying.

True equality is NEVER going to exist.
The only way that will ever happen is if EVERY country decided to become Communist,
Which I never see happening.
Humans are a self serving creature by nature,
So of course we're going to cover out asses before somebody else.

A big problem in such countries is guerrilla warfare and tyranny,
And that would cost a lot of money to go in and extinguish it with our forces.
We've all seen how much it's cost to go in and try to help Iraq.
Now if we poured that money into ALL third world countries,
I can safely say that all nations would collapse due to debt and bankruptcy.

What's to hide behind?
Logic and realism?
I think not.I'm not sayign we should aim for complete equality. Just that everyone has the right to have access to clean drinking water, to food, to freedom of speech and the such like. The deficiency in these rights is what we should be addressing.

If humans are by nature self-serving then how is it that humans were able to survive tens of thousands of years ago? The answer is simple, they helped each other.
That's why humans lived in tribes. Villages are full of community spirit and promote helping each other. Other modern day cultures put emphasis on the group (rather than the individual) and the people living in these cultures are much more helpful than those in individualistic cultures.
If humans are so inherently self-serving then how could any of the above be true?

Money isn't the only thing we can do to help. Building wells, lowering the price of medications and providing GM foods for them are better options.

[AllThatIsLeft]

Do you know what survival of the fittest actually entails?
It has nothing to do with people being forced out of their homes by armed militia. Survival of the fittest has nothing to do with governments using food as a weapon. It has nothing to do with people being shot in the street for having an opinion.
Reason why i said CONCEPT. I am aware of the meaning of "survival of the fittest" but it's foolish to sacrifice a well developed society for another lesser one.
I'm not saying that they aren't worth it, every human deserves to live with the basic needs and freedom. But how long and how much money has been wasted in something that is not going to rise anytime soon. We are in a recession, I can see that around my house, and i'm sure so does everyone else somehow in their lives. I can't afford to help, when i need help myself.
and that's speaks for the country too.

Money isn't the only thing we can do to help. Building wells, lowering the price of medications and providing GM foods for them are better options.
Which in fact takes a LOT of money.

[Sapphire]

Reason why i said CONCEPT. I am aware of the meaning of "survival of the fittest" but it's foolish to sacrifice a well developed society for another lesser one.
I'm not saying that they aren't worth it, every human deserves to live with the basic needs and freedom. But how long and how much money has been wasted in something that is not going to rise anytime soon. We are in a recession, I can see that around my house, and i'm sure so does everyone else somehow in their lives. I can't afford to help, when i need help myself.
and that's speaks for the country too.


Which in fact takes a LOT of money.Ok, once again, who is saying that we should sacrifice our own countries for these third world countries?

Truthfully, not enough money has been given to these countries for years. There is a stipulated proportion that each country should give but only a handful actually satisfy that. To just throw money at these countries isn't enough though and if it happens then yes, it is a waste of money. It is too easy for them to use this money to buy weapons which goes against the point of foreign aid. Instead of throwing money at them that money should be invested into community projects like building wells and planting GM crops.

Thanks to the internet there are ways to help without even leaving the house. You can show support for the freedoms of these people and putting pressure on politicians and other authority figures to change things. All of this can be done for NO cost and can be effective.

[AllThatIsLeft]

Ok, once again, who is saying that we should sacrifice our own countries for these third world countries?

Truthfully, not enough money has been given to these countries for years. There is a stipulated proportion that each country should give but only a handful actually satisfy that. To just throw money at these countries isn't enough though and if it happens then yes, it is a waste of money. It is too easy for them to use this money to buy weapons which goes against the point of foreign aid. Instead of throwing money at them that money should be invested into community projects like building wells and planting GM crops.

Thanks to the internet there are ways to help without even leaving the house. You can show support for the freedoms of these people and putting pressure on politicians and other authority figures to change things. All of this can be done for NO cost and can be effective.

Well then that isn't our fault. That's the fault of whoever is running the show!

and i agree with u on the second paragraph... that could, and should be done.

[Sapphire]

Does it really matter who's "fault" it is?
No.

[AllThatIsLeft]

Yes it does. If the people running the show are buying guns instead of food, and water, and providing shelter. Yes it does.

why would anyone want to dish out money that isn't going for a good cause.

it does matter. A LOT.

[Sapphire]

Yes it does. If the people running the show are buying guns instead of food, and water, and providing shelter. Yes it does.

why would anyone want to dish out money that isn't going for a good cause.

it does matter. A LOT.
I meant is the identity of the organisation who's at fault important in discussing how first world countries can help most effectively?
Even if the countries situations weren't made worse by the purchase of guns, the best options for helping are still community projects and GM crops.

[Camazotz]

Sure, I'd like to help a third world country. I'd like to help everyone. But I can't, because I'm only one person. I can go far, but not far enough to feed every person on Earth. Helping people requires money, which we so desperately need. So before we can help others, we must help ourselves. However, we aren't smart enough or responsible enough to do the sort.

[Sage]

In my opinion, if people learned to live more simple lives and settled on plain, average sized TVs instead of monstrous plasma screens, bought houses with only the space that is needed and not enourmous mansions, we would have plenty of money left over to help others. I blame rich people.

[punkjake]

I think we need to stop doing things like helping ou countries who want to kill us,and help like Mexcio,South America,Africaect.

[INFERNO]

I think we need to stop doing things like helping ou countries who want to kill us,and help like Mexcio,South America,Africaect.

The problem though is we need to make sure that in the process of helping them, we don't screw ourselves and then we're sitting on our asses looking pretty stupid. If we are to offer services to those places, it will require quite a lot of services and quite a lot of money. At the current time, our economy still has its head deep in the shitter, so why would we then only screw ourselves further by tossing money and whatever other resources around to other places?

But there is another issue, those places, not the entire area but in some parts, they probably would use the money for guns and whatever else, then run back outside and shoot someone else or their government may use it for themselves and not for the people who need it. So after that, the people (and perhaps consequently the government) want more money because the money was misused. So as we rammed our heads deeper in the shitter the first time, let's do it again.

[Sapphire]

But there is another issue, those places, not the entire area but in some parts, they probably would use the money for guns and whatever else, then run back outside and shoot someone else or their government may use it for themselves and not for the people who need it. So after that, the people (and perhaps consequently the government) want more money because the money was misused. So as we rammed our heads deeper in the shitter the first time, let's do it again.Did you not read this?

Money isn't the only thing we can do to help. Building wells, lowering the price of medications and providing GM foods for them are better options.

[INFERNO]

Did you not read this?

Yes and did you not read your post you quoted me? None of those are free, they will all cost money, so what is your argument? Are you assuming that those things will magically happen for free?

[Sapphire]

Yes and did you not read your post you quoted me? None of those are free, they will all cost money, so what is your argument? Are you assuming that those things will magically happen for free?
If we finance the projects then how can the money go towards buying weapons instead of the intended purpose?

[INFERNO]

If we finance the projects then how can the money go towards buying weapons instead of the intended purpose?

If we finance them, then the money goes to what we want it to go to, that is rather obvious so what is your point? If you're trying to refute my initial post, then we're on slightly different topics as there I did not mention us funding specific projects but rather just giving them money and let their government use it for whatever. Although if I said before that if we fund the projects, then the money can go to unintended purposes, then please quote me where I said that in this thread.

[Sapphire]

I was simply pointing out that the problem you had recognised (governments using money to buy arms) can be addressed using methods (financing community projects) I'd outlined twice before your post.

[Antares]

The fact is that a lot of the developing countries have been forced to abandon their old cultures and customs, and are forced to do it the "modern" way.
They have had these companies (especially in africa/middle east) come overrun them for their natural resources and they haven't been able to get on their feet due to oppression and confusion really.
So these kids live in these squalid conditions with no real way to get food. If they still lived in tribes and huts I think it would be better honestly.

Anyways, I am completely aware of how people are hungry abroad. Can I personally do anything about it monetarily? No. Can't afford to give my money to people that probably wont even be saved. I think that is a fact for most people, they can't afford it. Then we have the people who are ignorant and don't know how broad this issue is. They don't know how serious of an issue it is.
Then you have the people who really don't care. Which is sad. Especially when you can make "a difference".

I think the way to fix it is....to get governments involved. Helping their governments obtain order, hold order, and get the power back in the peoples hands. Not some random white people controlling their lives from 10, 000 miles away. We need to let them experience wealth and see what happens. It may spread better.

The thing that bothers me most is that we control like...everyones lives...basically...like we have sooo much influence, yet we can't help people stay alive.

Then again, even in the US, we have a 97% literacy rate and experience intense poverty and have kids dieing from hunger too...definitely not as much and not as dire a situation, but still...

[Sapphire]

As I have said before, we can do things to help these people for no cost.Thanks to the internet there are ways to help without even leaving the house. You can show support for the freedoms of these people and putting pressure on politicians and other authority figures to change things. All of this can be done for NO cost and can be effective.And yes, getting the governments involved with each other like that would be really good.

[Zephyr]

Then you get the guerrillas coming in and taking over what we've just built to help,
Because they're pissed off that we're either ruining the culture or they just want it for their own needs.
And it'd take more money to go in and rid of them.

I believe that's what INFERNO was saying above that you've missed.

[Sapphire]

Then you get the guerrillas coming in and taking over what we've just built to help,
Because they're pissed off that we're either ruining the culture or they just want it for their own needs.
And it'd take more money to go in and rid of them.

I believe that's what INFERNO was saying above that you've missed.Where did he say that?

And there aren't guerrillas in every third world country so your point is only applicable to a portion of the countries.

[Zephyr]

Okay, I read it differently, my bad.

I wasn't saying that it applied to ALL of third world countries,
But they're still there.
Darfur and Uganda as examples.
Blood diamonds in Angola and Liberia.
The HIV/AIDS epidemic.
Lack of useful resources in barren countries which will cause them to never overcome.

We get shit for 'policing' the world.
But when we decide not to do so, we get shit for that as well.
If I recall, you were complaining in the other thread about America for 'policing' the world.
And now you're here arguing that we don't do enough.

So which is it hun?

[Sapphire]

Sudan is in a very bad way at the moment, that is true. But, things may improve with the on going negotiations and the indictment against al-Bashir.

Uganda is making a turn around. Slowly, yes. But it is still making changes for the better. Over half of the people (900,000) who had been forced to move out of their homes have moved closer to their villages or actually back into their villages of origin.

The HIV epidemic is something we could help by making ARV's more affordable. If the people can afford them then the epidemic can be curbed.

The lack of useful resources can be worked around by genetically modifying plants so they can thrive in those countries. They can then feed themselves and trade or sell the excess to improve their quality of life.

I've not said that America are "policing" the world nor that such a thing is bad. If you care to go back and read that thread you will see that I commented on the motives that the politicians gave for invading Iraq and not the fact that we had invaded. You will also see that my arguments in both this and that thread are similar and revolve around the fact that we should do more for these people.

[Antares]

I think we need to stop doing things like helping ou countries who want to kill us,and help like Mexcio,South America,Africaect.


Whoa wait? Africa is trying to kill us? Mexico is trying to kill us?!

I have never heard of Mexico trying to kill us. They just want to get in our country.

South America, we meddled in their business some years ago. Otherwise all we do to them is stupidly fuel their drug trade. Something that they are both happy and angry about.

Africa, we just keep screwing their place up. No wonder. But Africans don't kill us and will never will really.

So I dont know where you got that from...

[Perseus]

No Mars, he said to help out those countries/continents and not ones that want to kill us.

[Reality]

Firstly; to the people who "don't give a fuck about them". I suggest you try and live in those sort of conditions (slums etc) for yourself, and then we'll see if you can hand-over-heart say that. It's easy for us people in the First World, with the vast majority of us safely over the poverty line to say that, but yet most of us don't relate to it in the smallest way. I get that it's your honest opinion, but IMO, it can't hold that much water if it's that apathetic or ignorant.

Secondly, I don't really actually think we can actually successfully aid Third World countries into stable economies. It's actually impossible. Most countries in Africa, South America, Eastern Europe and Asia are poor, and it would cost millions and perhaps billions to aid each and every one of them. On top of that, many of these countries are ran by corrupt politics (dictators and military governments) which not only suppress the human rights of their citizens, but oftenly they use money from aid and charities for theirselves - Buying military hardware (firearms, fighter jets, missiles, etc) to be used against their own people or other countries, or simply materiel things for themselves.

Another problem with the Third World countries is their large populations, which is honestly self-inflicted, due to the lack of sexual education and access to contraceptives.

However, some of the First World DO have the blame. As someone said, Europe (particularly Britain and France) colonized Africa and India and milked it's resources leaving the people poor and with hardly anything valuable in their economy. It should be in the interests of these countries to actually help them.. considering it's kind of owed. But that doesn't mean the USA does not have any responsibility. The USA, if I'm not wrong, gets cheap labour from these countries.

You know that your Nike (an American company) football or tracksuit that you bought for around £50-£150 was probably made in some Vietnamese or Indian slum for about 12+ hours of hard labour by children as young as 9 getting paid no more than $3? Capitalism is a disgusting "ideology", but sadly, it reflects human nature.

I believe, although we cannot solve poverty, us in the First World should at least pay what we owe. People we employ in poor countries should be given fair wages for their work (it's not like the businesses would be sacrificing much profit), and any charity money raised should go towards basic rights projects such as food, water and shelter, rather than giving their untrustworthy governments a lumpsum of money. I also believe that huge debt should be cancelled. We don't need that money, and it's added to their struggles.

I don't believe the First World should bend over backwards for them. I.E. give them billions and billions and help them with every single thing, because we'd be sacrificing our own economy, and we should never abandon our own poor. There are many homeless and starving people in First World countries believe it or not.

[boy.on.laptop]

I don't give a fuck about them
they're lucky we give them anything at all right now and speaking as a Canadian we do quite a bit to aid the 3rd world
we're facing the largest economic recession since the great depression, we need to focus on our own

I want all of Canada's aid money to go to Canadian's
the thousands that have lost there jobs are losing there homes
Can't afford to feed themselves or their kids
The healthcare system thats collapsing
the desperately needed maintenance and upgrades to the infostructure connecting 32million (same population as California really) across the second largest country on the planet

WHEN Canada is strong again then by all means spend millions upgrading DART's capabilities send out wave after wave of peace keepers what canadians are known for and very good at
build schools, wells, housing, etc...

But take care of our own first

Canada can only help the 3rd world if we remain a productive first world nation

29,000 children starve to death everyday
I can't do anything about that its been that way for 21yrs that I know of
were not going to be able to save them if we can't save our economy and citizens first
we need the money and recourses in order to stand a hope in hell of change

and they have to WANT IT most African and middle eastern nations have no interest in our help
fine
they dont want it I won't push it onto them
that just causes our guys to get killed

That is the most ignorant and selfish comment I have ever read. Canada has more money than they know what to do with. Have you ever thrown a scrap of food out? I guarrantee you, you could do more for your fellow canadians by helping at a homeless shelter, donating food etc. I agree that people of our own country need to be helped out of poverty first but anyone who believes that their television or their computer or any possesion is more important than a human life has serious mental compassion problems. The gift of life is more important than any other gift we have.

Okay, I read it differently, my bad.


We get shit for 'policing' the world.
But when we decide not to do so, we get shit for that as well.
If I recall, you were complaining in the other thread about America for 'policing' the world.
And now you're here arguing that we don't do enough.

So which is it hun?
Policing and helping the world are two very different things. America policies the world in order to secure oil supplies and retain American lifestyle. The only get 'shit' from their European allies who can't be bothered to do it themselves because their countries aren't as gun-crazed as the US.

Times like these it makes me proud that I come from the least corrupt and most democratic english speaking country, New Zealand but still disappointed how pathetically little we do for the poor.

[theOperaGhost]

Firstly; to the people who "don't give a fuck about them". I suggest you try and live in those sort of conditions (slums etc) for yourself, and then we'll see if you can hand-over-heart say that. It's easy for us people in the First World, with the vast majority of us safely over the poverty line to say that, but yet most of us don't relate to it in the smallest way. I get that it's your honest opinion, but IMO, it can't hold that much water if it's that apathetic or ignorant.



I'm one of those people who "don't give a fuck." I can safely say that if I were in their situation, I would have a different opinion. However, I'm not in that situation. Does that make their problem my problem? Just because I am more fortunate than they are, I have to come to their aid? I work hard for whatever I have, and I object to being expected to aid third world countries. Does this make me a cold, heartless bastard? Probably. I don't really care, though. The same people who are complaining about nobody coming to the aid of third world countries are probably the same people complaining about the over-population of the world. HYPOCRITES!

I will have a different attitude about aiding third world countries when all the people in my own country are aided. I remember Carole comparing the numbers and problems of the people in third world countries to the suffering people in developed countries. Does this mean just because there are MORE people suffering WORSE in third world countries than in developed countries, they deserve more aid?

[Sapphire]

Does this mean just because there are MORE people suffering WORSE in third world countries than in developed countries, they deserve more aid?
IMO, yes.

[theOperaGhost]

IMO, yes.

So those people are more valuable? In my opinion, the people of my own country are more valuable to me than people in a third world country. I know you can't place a value on a person's life, but that is how I see this. I'm going to always place a higher value on someone in my own country than someone living in a third world country which can't sustain itself. This is going to sound really cold, but here I say it...If God/Mother Nature doesn't show any pity on these places, why should I?

[Sapphire]

So those people are more valuable? In my opinion, the people of my own country are more valuable to me than people in a third world country. I know you can't place a value on a person's life, but that is how I see this. I'm going to always place a higher value on someone in my own country than someone living in a third world country which can't sustain itself. This is going to sound really cold, but here I say it...If God/Mother Nature doesn't show any pity on these places, why should I?
I don't place more value on the citizens of any particular nation. If you have two people in hardship and one clearly needs more help than the other, then that is the one that should receive more help. At least, that is what I believe.
They implement this logic in hospitals so it can't be a particularly faulty way of looking at situations.

Don't you think that the presence of oil, coal and other raw materials may be "Mother Nature" giving these countries a helping hand?
If so, then surely (using your own logic) you should give a helping hand too.

[theOperaGhost]

I don't place more value on the citizens of any particular nation. If you have two people in hardship and one clearly needs more help than the other, then that is the one that should receive more help. At least, that is what I believe.
They implement this logic in hospitals so it can't be a particularly faulty way of looking at situations.

Don't you think that the presence of oil, coal and other raw materials may be "Mother Nature" giving these countries a helping hand?
If so, then surely (using your own logic) you should give a helping hand too.

I'm not exactly sure what point you are making with the presence of natural resources and tying to me giving a helping hand...

[Sapphire]

You said If God/Mother Nature doesn't show any pity on these places, why should I?I pointed out that some of these countries have raw materials and that that can be seen as a helping hand from "Mother Nature". So, using your logic in the above quote, you should help too.

[Reality]

So those people are more valuable? In my opinion, the people of my own country are more valuable to me than people in a third world country. I know you can't place a value on a person's life, but that is how I see this. I'm going to always place a higher value on someone in my own country than someone living in a third world country which can't sustain itself. This is going to sound really cold, but here I say it...If God/Mother Nature doesn't show any pity on these places, why should I?
Why does country specifically matter? A country is merely a political territory when it comes down to it, whether you're patriotic or not. But a human is a human, black, white, foreign or not foreign.

I don't believe in abandoning in ones own Citizens to help others, but the people in need the most deserve help the most. From what you're saying (my interpretation), you'd feel more sorry for a homeless alcoholic who has gambling addictions who used to have a good job and life but chose to waste himself against the wall, to a starving family who are suppressed by their government, simply on the basis that the homeless alcoholic is an American (your country), and the starving family are from else where? I know I'm using two extremes, and I don't condone poverty anywhere, but that seems to be what you're saying.

[Bougainvillea]

I think they just don't care. I want to volunteer for TRC. :)

[theOperaGhost]

You said I pointed out that some of these countries have raw materials and that that can be seen as a helping hand from "Mother Nature". So, using your logic in the above quote, you should help too.

If they are getting a helping hand from Mother Nature, they shouldn't need our help and should be able to sustain themselves.

Why does country specifically matter? A country is merely a political territory when it comes down to it, whether you're patriotic or not. But a human is a human, black, white, foreign or not foreign.

I don't believe in abandoning in ones own Citizens to help others, but the people in need the most deserve help the most. From what you're saying (my interpretation), you'd feel more sorry for a homeless alcoholic who has gambling addictions who used to have a good job and life but chose to waste himself against the wall, to a starving family who are suppressed by their government, simply on the basis that the homeless alcoholic is an American (your country), and the starving family are from else where? I know I'm using two extremes, and I don't condone poverty anywhere, but that seems to be what you're saying.

Yes, that is what I'm saying. There are not only homeless alcoholics with gambling addictions in america though.

[Sapphire]

If they are getting a helping hand from Mother Nature, they shouldn't need our help and should be able to sustain themselves.Ok, that distinctly contradicts your statement that basically said "Why should I care and help if Mother Nature/God doesn't?". But heyho, that's your prerogative.

However they rely on other countries buying these things. If their national wealth is dictated largely by what more developed countries choose to do then that is hardly sustainable.

[theOperaGhost]

I am not contradicting what I said. I said, "If God/Mother Nature doesn't show any pity on these places, why should I?" When I say that, I imply that if Mother Nature/God did care about these places, that they would be able to sustain themselves. It isn't my problem that they are not self-sufficient, so I'm not going to make it my problem. It is not my obligation to provide for myself AND some people who can't support themselves in a third world country.

[Sapphire]

I am not contradicting what I said. I said, "If God/Mother Nature doesn't show any pity on these places, why should I?" When I say that, I imply that if Mother Nature/God did care about these places, that they would be able to sustain themselves. It isn't my problem that they are not self-sufficient, so I'm not going to make it my problem. It is not my obligation to provide for myself AND some people who can't support themselves in a third world country.
I pity the fool who believes in such a cruel "God" figure.
I have yet to see any Holy Book that promotes the message that if God doesn't provide a complete solution for a group of people then others shouldn't feel like they should help at all. All of the ones I've seen promote generosity and cooperation.

And no one said that you as an individual have to support yourself and a number of people in another country.

[Bougainvillea]

I pity the fool who believes in such a cruel "God" figure.
I have yet to see any Holy Book that promotes the message that if God doesn't provide a complete solution for a group of people then others shouldn't feel like they should help at all. All of the ones I've seen promote generosity and cooperation.

And no one said that you as an individual have to support yourself and a number of people in another country.

Well said.
+1

[Strength]

Why aren't we doing more to help them?
Why are we so concerned with what goes on inside our borders but real issues abroad are of little concern to us?
Why don't we put more emphasis on the thousands who die each day due to lack of food/clean water and less emphasis on sport?
We are all people with the same basic needs.

How can leaving them in such squalor without much concern be justified?

We should be fixing our OWN backyard first before helping out our neighbors.:cool:

[ThatDude93]

A lot of 1st world nations are in huge economic decline. At least the ones that would help out the 3rd world nations. I say we need to get ourselves stabilized before we help out other nations. It isn't like I don't care about them though.

[Bougainvillea]

This country is so money hungry, the government sees the people in those countries a damn credit risk. Which is probably what they think of us. If our own government won't help the people in our own country who also severely need help, why would they help them. It's sickening.

[benjabubble]

Have you guys ever thought about the title "third world countries"? Cause I'm personally against the implication that there are three different worlds.

I've lived in a developing country for most of my life, and the people there have cultural differences sure, but saying they live in a third world country implies (to me at least) that they are aliens on our (the Westerner's) planet.

I'm not trying to attack anyone in particular, and I'm sure none of you mean it in that way, but just that simple phrase makes my blood boil.

[Bougainvillea]

Third world as in foreign. Not like, aliens. Although that means foreign too :P

[Perseus]

Have you guys ever thought about the title "third world countries"? Cause I'm personally against the implication that there are three different worlds.

I've lived in a developing country for most of my life, and the people there have cultural differences sure, but saying they live in a third world country implies (to me at least) that they are aliens on our (the Westerner's) planet.

I'm not trying to attack anyone in particular, and I'm sure none of you mean it in that way, but just that simple phrase makes my blood boil.

Third world is the correct term for poor countries. Just like America is 1st world and most of Europe is 2nd world.
I was taught in school that 1st world shows that a country is wealthy and ahs nuclear weapons. 2nd world means they have no nuclear weapons but they are wealthy to semi-wealthy. 2rd world just means poor and unstable as with its government.

[Bougainvillea]

I never knew that :P

[benjabubble]

All the same, only fluent English speakers would be able to grasp that meaning. People without knowledge of all the nuances of the English language would take it literally, and I know that I for one would take major offense.

Alright, I could be blowing this out of proportion, but think about it at least. Calling North American and European countries the 1st world and then calling developing countries 3rd world implies that American and European countries are better, and in so doing that would make the one nation better than the other.

[Sapphire]

Alright, I could be blowing this out of proportion, but think about it at least. Calling North American and European countries the 1st world and then calling developing countries 3rd world implies that American and European countries are better, and in so doing that would make the one nation better than the other.
I see what you are saying and tbh I should have been using the correct terms of developed and developing countries or more developed and less developed countries. Sorry if I offended you.

[benjabubble]

LOL no you didn't offend, I was more just seeing if anyone had considered it

[theOperaGhost]

We should be fixing our OWN backyard first before helping out our neighbors.:cool:

A lot of 1st world nations are in huge economic decline. At least the ones that would help out the 3rd world nations. I say we need to get ourselves stabilized before we help out other nations. It isn't like I don't care about them though.

I agree with these.

[JackOfClubs]

A lot of 1st world nations are in huge economic decline. At least the ones that would help out the 3rd world nations. I say we need to get ourselves stabilized before we help out other nations. It isn't like I don't care about them though.
I completely agree.

1st world countries all over the world are in a recession. You need to have money to give money. I think that we should be trying to help all the 3rd world countries, but we need to figure out our own problems first.

[Sapphire]

I love how people are talking as if the recession is only affecting the richer countries in the world.