take it or leave it but...

[Master_Miyagi]

EDIT: i don't intend to prove or disprove any religion by posting this thread, i simply wish to get everyone thinking about what it is that wakes us up in the morning, and what it is that motivates us.
because we wouldn't be here if we didn't have some sort of meaning...right? or wrong?

Im not sure if this is the right place to post this, and it's long but PLEASE read it all, i feel like people need to know this...

i've been reading this book lately and it got me thinking...near the beginning of the millennium, we all KNEW what we were here for, we ALL had a purpose, and that was GOD, and the Christian beliefs. the common man followed the churchman blindly. he couldn't read the holy text that was the bible so we had churchmen translate it for us.
but as the years went on, these middlemen became more and more corrupt, they started selling papers to get "lost souls" into heaven because the comman man was scared. scared of hell, scared of GOD, but for the most part they KNEW what they were afraid of.
fast forward in time a couple decades...the churchmen are increasingly becoming less and less believed, it was origianally said that Earth was what ALL else revolved around. but scientists found evidence that this wasn't the truth. this was an important finding...mankind was LOSING it's place in GODS universe...so now, when a loved one dies, or a tree grows tall, or the earth quakes, they didn't look at GOD, all they felt was confusion as to why it was all happening. all the things they took for granted now need new definition.
so they sent out explorers, armed with the scientific method. they had one mission: explore this place, find out how it works and what it means that we find ourselves alive here......from this point on, the human race became preoccupied. we sent out the explorers to find out our meaning of life, but since the universe is a very complex thing they didn't return RIGHT AWAY. so we needed something else to do until our questions were answered. we settled on a very logical solution, "while our explorers are away, why not settle in while we wait?" we certainly learned enough to manipulate this new world for our own benefits, so why not work in the meantime to raise our standard of living, our sense of security in the world?

so we did.

we shook off the feeling of being lost by taking matters into out own hands, we conquered the earth as humans, used it's resources to better our situation, and only now as we approach the end of the millennium can we see what happened. Our MAIN FOCUS gradually became a preoccupation. we lost ourselves in creating a secular security, an economic security, to replace the spiritual one we had lost (GOD and the solid Christian religeon) the question of WHY we are here, was slowly pushed aside and repressed altogether.
working to establish a more comfortable style of living has grown to feel complete in and of itself as a reason to live, and we've gradually, methodically forgotten our origianal question...we've forgotten that we still don't know WHAT we are surviving for...

i want everyone to realize that what we as a race have done is GREAT, but it's not necessary to continue with what we're doing, we're focusing too much on getting more and more comfortable here, when we still don't even know the most basic question of all. we still don't know WHY we wage war, and we still don't know WHY we have a government, and we still don't know WHY we have jobs, or go to school. everything we've been doing is what made our civilization GREAT, but without one question answered none of it means anything.

[Master_Miyagi]

feel free to leave comments on what you think, i want to hear what you guys have to say

[djunlogical]

that is a very intresting take on things, however, most of your questions in the last paragraph can be answered, eg. why we wage war, because human nature is greedy and we will forever want more land, recorces . (not great, i know). We have a government because as humans we are dependant on a higherarchy, and therefore people to see over us, or govern. The King/Queen used to this, however the people of britain and america (and others) have decided that they would like a say on things, so they opted for a democracy, therefore the government, the queen is only still thre because she brings tourism to the UK. Jobs are to satisfy boredome and fullfil tasks that nees doing, and school is so that knowlage can live on through the ages. but the original question "what we are surviving for" is a fantastic point. Thank you for the interesting need, I may use a few of your points for my point evidenceand explination thingy in RE if thats okay with you.

[Master_Miyagi]

that is a very intresting take on things, however, most of your questions in the last paragraph can be answered, eg. why we wage war, because human nature is greedy and we will forever want more land, recorces . (not great, i know).

but that still doesn't answer why we WANT more land, and resources. what is the point in furthering our expansion if we still don't even know the most basic question of them all? it seems that all our expansion is doing is causing more heart ache. heart ache to the soldiers families, heart ache to whole nations, and heart ache to our own planet when we exaust it's natural resources.

We have a government because as humans we are dependant on a higherarchy, and therefore people to see over us, or govern.

i don't think that is entirely true, i truely believe that we as humans were TRICKED into having a government. we knew there would be chaos if we didn't have rules in our modern society, so we decided to have "higher-ups" make laws. at first, i think, we started out with laws, then those "higher-ups" told us we need to have even HIGHER higher-ups to keep everything in balance, and that kept going until we came across democracy. our system gives us the "freedom" to have a say in who runs our country, and what laws CAN be passed and which ones can't. the voting process is just an illusion, it makes us feel as if WE are the ones in power, "no man is more enslaved than the man who falsely believes he is free."...and our government knew this, you see we can choose who REPRESENTS our country (the president) but we cannot choose who is BEHIND the man who makes the decisions...the men BEHIND the curtains are the men who are really in power...if you don't think what i am saying is true, just look at the word GOVERNMENT, GOVERN means "control, or to control" MENT comes from the word MENTE meaning "the mind." there you have it, GOVERNMENT= to control the mind, everybody needs to open their eyes and see what is happening around them, the government is NOT HIDING ANYTHING FROM US, it is all right there for you to see.



Jobs are to satisfy boredome and fullfil tasks that nees doing

i don't completely agree with the fact that jobs are for necessary tasks. we have jobs to get things done, but not really things that NEED to be done. if you think about it, every job that we have today is NOT NEEDED! if we need something done it should be done on our OWN accord, not somebody elses, the only thing we as humans are completely SURE about is the fact that (for now anyways) we are here to survive, and nothing else, if we were to go off PURE instincts, we wouldn't feel the need to do any of the things we are doing today. because instinct is our TRUE decision making process minus all the bias, and prejudice, and everything else.

EDIT: and some of you may come back with "we need police men, and we need firemen, and paramedics." well the sad truth is, we don't. by having doctors and policemen and all those jobs, we are ALTERING NATURES COURSE.every disease, and every broken bone, and every fire, is supposed to happen for one reason or another. lets say i have a terminal illness, it would be hard to do but, me as an individual, would refuse treatment because by being denied death, i am being denied the ONLY promise we as human beings have in life...think about it, what is the ONLY thing every human is programmed to do, it's in our brain from birth that we have to die. im not saying i WANT to die, but death is the only 100% thing out there, and when it comes time for me to die, i will happily accept the promise that has been made when i was born.


"what we are surviving for" is a fantastic point. Thank you for the interesting need, I may use a few of your points for my point evidenceand explination thingy in RE if thats okay with you.

thank YOU for sharing what you think, and as for you using some of these points, i would LOVE for you to do that. i feel like we've been putting off this question for FAR too long now, and people need to start realising that in order for things to be at peace, we need to resume our original focus, finding out WHY (not how) we are here in the first place.

[Ripplemagne]

You're on the right track, but I think you're mistaken. My favorite verse in the Bible is:

1 Thessalonians 5:21-22 (KJV)
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Abstain from all appearance of evil."

So, no, we are called to explore the world that was given to us. Revelations does predict a secular society growing and eventually becoming very decadent before eventually leading into the rapture, but a Bible believer should always be looking for more.

[Sapphire]

Ok. I have a couple of problems with the original post.

First of all, the Christian religion is by no means the oldest religion. Nor is it the only religion. Why are you talking as if the world's population is and always has been either Christian or atheist?
Also we are at the start of the millenium, not the end. But that is me just nit-picking.

Philosophers have long discussed the meaning of life. People like Aristotle who existed before Jesus was born were addressing the question and the question has been addressed by many since. The rise in atheism is not a sign that people are idle on what the meaning of life is.

The questions in the last paragraph have been answered by djunlogical but I will add a couple of points.
We work so that we can live. Food doesn't serve it's self up. People have to catch and kill it or harvest it and create edible food out of it. People have to make clothes and houses etc. By working we are trading products and services for money with which we can buy things we need like food, water, clothes and shelter.
Education is needed so that we can build a knowledge base. With a knowledge base we can communicate with others, work and understand the world around us.
We wouldn't have the lives we have at the moment if it weren't for education and jobs.

EDIT
Doctors are necessary. They have been in existence longer than your precious religion has and have improved people's lives. Without doctors, scientists and others who try to uncover some knowledge of the world have contributed to you living in a warm house with a toilet which flushes your waste away. Many children wouldn't see it to one year old if it weren't for doctors. Cuts would quickly become infected and kill you if doctors and scientists didn't exist to create medicines to prevent that happening.
"God wills it" is not a good enough argument when debating the prevention of illness, suffering and death.

[Master_Miyagi]

Ok. I have a couple of problems with the original post.

First of all, the Christian religion is by no means the oldest religion. Nor is it the only religion. Why are you talking as if the world's population is and always has been either Christian or atheist?
Also we are at the start of the millenium, not the end. But that is me just nit-picking.

Philosophers have long discussed the meaning of life. People like Aristotle who existed before Jesus was born were addressing the question and the question has been addressed by many since. The rise in atheism is not a sign that people are idle on what the meaning of life is.

The questions in the last paragraph have been answered by djunlogical but I will add a couple of points.
We work so that we can live. Food doesn't serve it's self up. People have to catch and kill it or harvest it and create edible food out of it. People have to make clothes and houses etc. By working we are trading products and services for money with which we can buy things we need like food, water, clothes and shelter.
Education is needed so that we can build a knowledge base. With a knowledge base we can communicate with others, work and understand the world around us.
We wouldn't have the lives we have at the moment if it weren't for education and jobs.

i never said it was the oldest or the only religion, i talk as if it's the only one because during the middle ages it was (for the most part) the only way to go for the people of the time (and of course i talk about the "known world.") they didn't know much else about their religion other than what the church people told them.

millennium-a period of 1000 years. to START this millennium, we must END the old one riiiight? when i say "as we approach the end of the millennium can we see what happened." im trying to get you to think as if you were a person nearing the end of the millennium, because to see the result of an equation you have to complete that equation right? well to see what has happened in a complete period of time, you have to be at the end or nearing the end of that specific time.

and as for people addressing the meaning of life, yes we have had individuals throughout time addressing why we are here, but what im trying to get at is, if we ALL addressed the meaning of life at the same time, then eventually we will come upon the answer. a handful of brilliant people isn't enough, we need a world full of enlightened minds to finally answer our question.

[Master_Miyagi]

EDIT
Doctors are necessary. They have been in existence longer than your precious religion has and have improved people's lives. Without doctors, scientists and others who try to uncover some knowledge of the world have contributed to you living in a warm house with a toilet which flushes your waste away. Many children wouldn't see it to one year old if it weren't for doctors. Cuts would quickly become infected and kill you if doctors and scientists didn't exist to create medicines to prevent that happening.
"God wills it" is not a good enough argument when debating the prevention of illness, suffering and death.


theres no need to get defensive buti see what you're saying about that, (even though for some reason you think im trying to say all this in the name of God...) but i am a solid believer of fate, and i believe that whatever happens, happens for a certain reason. and as sad as it may be to say this, it's true, infections are here for a reason, and I don't know what that reason is, and im sure no one else does, but they are here affecting us for some reason or another. who are we to say that a dying person should live. we would be taking away the ONLY guarantee in life from that person. and as for scientists contributing to warm households, that is true, but do you think that early people lived with heaters, and toilets? they used what was around them, and if we stopped putting all our efforts into bettering what is already there, and started working on what we have no knowledge of, i think we would have a better world

EDIT:my "precious religion"? you don't even know what religion i practice so stay off that subject

[Sapphire]

i never said it was the oldest or the only religion, i talk as if it's the only one because during the middle ages it was (for the most part) the only way to go for the people of the time (and of course i talk about the "known world.") they didn't know much else about their religion other than what the church people told them.Ok, so you are looking at a specific period on a specific continent. What about the other continents? The people on those continents followed different religions and count for more of the population than Europe on it's own.

millennium-a period of 1000 years. to START this millennium, we must END the old one riiiight? when i say "as we approach the end of the millennium can we see what happened." im trying to get you to think as if you were a person nearing the end of the millennium, because to see the result of an equation you have to complete that equation right? well to see what has happened in a complete period of time, you have to be at the end or nearing the end of that specific time.We've witnessed the end of a milennium and are 9 years into the new one. Hence the year 2009.
Milenniums are not the only periods of time that can be reflected on. You can reflect on and analyse the events that take part in any period of time whether it's seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks and so on. So I still am unsure as to why you've picked out the milennium.

and as for people addressing the meaning of life, yes we have had individuals throughout time addressing why we are here, but what im trying to get at is, if we ALL addressed the meaning of life at the same time, then eventually we will come upon the answer. a handful of brilliant people isn't enough, we need a world full of enlightened minds to finally answer our question.
If we need, as you have said, a world full of enlightened minds to answer the question about the meaning of life then we need a world full of people who have followed the same path with the same thought pattern and come to the same conclusion. But that is not achievable as no two people think in exactly the same way. Everyone has different opinions on things, different abilities and will find different things occurring in life.

and i see what you're saying about that, (even though for some reason you think im trying to say all this in the name of God...) but i am a solid believer of fate, and i believe that whatever happens, happens for a certain reason. and as sad as it may be to say this, it's true, infections are here for a reason, and I don't know what that reason is, and im sure no one else does, but they are here affecting us for some reason or another. who are we to say that a dying person should live. we would be taking away the ONLY guarantee in life from that person. and as for scientists contributing to warm households, that is true, but do you think that early people lived with heaters, and toilets? they used what was around them, and if we stopped putting all our efforts into bettering what is already there, and started working on what we have no knowledge of, i think we would have a better worldPreventing illness is hardly denying people their death. Last time I looked we didn't have the answer to eternal life :rolleyes:
We do work on gaining knowledge where it is lacking. Scientists do experiments for this exact reason!
If fate is the cause of everything then surely it is fate that Galen discovered that arteries carry blood and not air. Surely it was fate that Hippocrates developed the clinical method for treating people with head injuries. It would also be an act of fate that doctors can remove brain tumors and repair damaged organs.

EDIT:my "precious religion"? you don't even know what religion i practice so stay off that subject
You're the one that brought religion into this dear boy. How can I not talk about religion when this whole topic is based on that very thing?

[Master_Miyagi]

i'll start with...

If we need, as you have said, a world full of enlightened minds to answer the question about the meaning of life then we need a world full of people who have followed the same path with the same thought pattern and come to the same conclusion. But that is not achievable as no two people think in exactly the same way. Everyone has different opinions on things, different abilities and will find different things occurring in life.

you did a good job of twisting my words around but, i never said we need a world of the same enlightened minds, obviously we need different thought processes or we will never get anywhere. what im saying is, we need to put down our research on sham-wow's and on bettering our television sets, and we need to pick up philosophy. we need to put our efforts into finding out why we are here, then we can resume with what we are doing (if we see it fit) and when you say "...we need a world full of people who have followed the same path with the same thought pattern and come to the same conclusion." you obviously aren't gettng my point...im saying WE need to become those enlightened thinkers, we all don't think alike as you were saying. if we have a world of enlightened people, each person coming to their OWN conclusion, we can use others research and work to find out the REAL conclusion.
aristotle was the student of plato correct? and plato was the student of socrates am i wrong? if these great men were influenced by another great man, why don't we take that same principle and put it into effect with our entire race. we can take bits and pieces of another great mind and fuse it with ideas from our own great minds...thats what i was getting at.

We've witnessed the end of a milennium and are 9 years into the new one. Hence the year 2009.
Milenniums are not the only periods of time that can be reflected on. You can reflect on and analyse the events that take part in any period of time whether it's seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks and so on. So I still am unsure as to why you've picked out the milennium.

i picked out the millennium because at the beginning of the first millennium europe felt like it knew it's meaning of life, and that was GOD. and now we know that there may be more to life than just blindly following text in a book because that's what we're told to do. no other reason. and obviously you can reflect on any time period, but we didn't lose our sense of knowing in the span of 10 minutes did we?

Preventing illness is hardly denying people their death. Last time I looked we didn't have the answer to eternal life :rolleyes:
We do work on gaining knowledge where it is lacking. Scientists do experiments for this exact reason!



you're right we don't have the answer to eternal life, and that is my point exactly. if a person has a terminal illness, why prolong the inevitable?

and as for...

If fate is the cause of everything then surely it is fate that Galen discovered that arteries carry blood and not air. Surely it was fate that Hippocrates developed the clinical method for treating people with head injuries. It would also be an act of fate that doctors can remove brain tumors and repair damaged organs.

you do have a point, but i still believe that prolonging death by treating terminal illnesses or damage is unnatural and wrong. i do believe that fate governed all those mentioned discoveries but just because i believe fate governs them doesn't mean they should be used, we have discovered many things just for the sake of knowledge, i don't think those medical discoveries should be used for anything more than knowledge (bash me all you want, that's what i believe and you cannot change my opinion)


You're the one that brought religion into this dear boy. How can I not talk about religion when this whole topic is based on that very thing?

EDIT: quote what i said "bringing religion into this." you obviously didn't understand what i was talking about when i mentioned Christianity and GOD, and this topic is NOT based on religion, if that's what you think you are mistaken completely. this topic is based on the idea that everything we are doing, all our technological advances, all our medicinal advances, EVERYTHING, is meaningless without the question "why we are here" answered.

[Sage]

this topic is based on the idea that everything we are doing, all our technological advances, all our medicinal advances, EVERYTHING, is meaningless without the question "why we are here" answered.

Nihilism is a stupid philosophy, you realize that? It's like choosing bald as a hair color, if that makes any sense.

As humans, we attribute our own meanings to things. Take a water bottle, for instance. I may be able to look at one and see no profound meaning- But, take a starving villager from Nigeria, and they may see a symbol of hope and good health.

The meaning of life is subjective. It is different among everyone and everyone can change it. There's is no objective, universal purpose to one's existence.

[Master_Miyagi]

Nihilism is a stupid philosophy, you realize that? It's like choosing bald as a hair color, if that makes any sense.

As humans, we attribute our own meanings to things. Take a water bottle, for instance. I may be able to look at one and see no profound meaning- But, take a starving villager from Nigeria, and they may see a symbol of hope and good health.

The meaning of life is subjective. It is different among everyone and everyone can change it. There's is no objective, universal purpose to one's existence.

i like what you said about the symbol of hope, but im not trying to find the meaning of myself as an individual, i want us to start thinking of the meaning of life as a whole, the meaning to our OWN lives is subjective, but there can only be one reason as to why we as human beings are here in the first place (my opinion anyway)


EDIT: i don't consider myself a nihilist because i don't reject society and the laws, that come with it, i think what we have done is GREAT, i think most of our modernizations had to happen, but at the same time i think we are blindly advancing our civilization just because that's what we've been doing for so long, it's just kind of our default setting, we've done all we can to make ourselves comfortable in the world but now we need to know WHY we are here as conscious human beings in the first place.

[Master_Miyagi]

btw sapphire
im glad to see someone actually arguing their point of view,it's a nice change, i don't see that much often around here, i usually find myself in a one sided conversation

[Sage]

the meaning to our OWN lives is subjective, but there can only be one reason as to why we as human beings are here in the first place

What convinces you that there is a whole meaning in the first place? Why can there not be no group-meaning and only an individual one?

[Sapphire]

you did a good job of twisting my words around but, i never said we need a world of the same enlightened minds, obviously we need different thought processes or we will never get anywhere. what im saying is, we need to put down our research on sham-wow's and on bettering our television sets, and we need to pick up philosophy. we need to put our efforts into finding out why we are here, then we can resume with what we are doing (if we see it fit) and when you say "...we need a world full of people who have followed the same path with the same thought pattern and come to the same conclusion." you obviously aren't gettng my point...im saying WE need to become those enlightened thinkers, we all don't think alike as you were saying. if we have a world of enlightened people, each person coming to their OWN conclusion, we can use others research and work to find out the REAL conclusion.
aristotle was the student of plato correct? and plato was the student of socrates am i wrong? if these great men were influenced by another great man, why don't we take that same principle and put it into effect with our entire race. we can take bits and pieces of another great mind and fuse it with ideas from our own great minds...thats what i was getting at.We are building on the works of great men. Those three philosophers you mentioned all helped create science and scientific thought.
Philosophy can only get us so far because all it is is one person says this but another says this. Without following philosophical thought through to science or maths it is useless. Without following it through with studies no one theory can't be deemed as more respectable and accepted than the others.
You could become a philosopher and publish what you think the meaning of life is but I could publish a contradicting one and Deschain could publish yet another one and they would all be deemed to be on the same playing field. That hardly sounds like the road to a "real" conclusion or our success as a species.

i picked out the millennium because at the beginning of the first millennium europe felt like it knew it's meaning of life, and that was GOD. and now we know that there may be more to life than just blindly following text in a book because that's what we're told to do. no other reason. and obviously you can reflect on any time period, but we didn't lose our sense of knowing in the span of 10 minutes did we?We know a lot more about our environment than we did then and that is all down to subject areas like geology, physics, chemistry, biology and the such like. Knowledge doesn't take a thousand years to be turned on it's head. The day that Galen found blood was carried by the arteries instead of air turned our sense of knowing on it's head.

you're right we don't have the answer to eternal life, and that is my point exactly. if a person has a terminal illness, why prolong the inevitable?So that they can get their affairs in order, spend some more precious time with family, do things they have always wanted to do like see a grandchild be born.

you do have a point, but i still believe that prolonging death by treating terminal illnesses or damage is unnatural and wrong. i do believe that fate governed all those mentioned discoveries but just because i believe fate governs them doesn't mean they should be used, we have discovered many things just for the sake of knowledge, i don't think those medical discoveries should be used for anything more than knowledge (bash me all you want, that's what i believe and you cannot change my opinion)So you believe in advancing our knowledge but letting it sit idly while people suffer, die early, horribly and excruiatingly? You believe in letting human kind live in inadequate housing and shitting out the window and freezing to death?
Wow, I am glad you are not representative of the human population because if you were then we would all be in trouble.

EDIT: quote what i said "bringing religion into this." you obviously didn't understand what i was talking about when i mentioned Christianity and GOD, and this topic is NOT based on religion, if that's what you think you are mistaken completely. this topic is based on the idea that everything we are doing, all our technological advances, all our medicinal advances, EVERYTHING, is meaningless without the question "why we are here" answered.The fact that a large portion of your first posthas revolved around God and Christianity is a large indicator of you bringing religion into this. If you hadn;t brought religion into this then you would have spoken about philosophy and the course that that has run through history. As you didn't it is sensible to deduce that you are taking religion into consideration.

I do not class all achievements ever made by humankind as meaningless just because we can't identify a universal meaning of life.
The lack of a universal meaning simply highlights the differences in the daily struggles people have. In many countries people struggle to even get access to clean drinking water and other basic needs while in others people have unrestricted access to these basic needs. If everyone were on an even playing field then a universal meaning could be derived that would satisfy someone such as yourself more than "to survive and live a happy life".

The meaning of life is subjective. It is different among everyone and everyone can change it. There's is no objective, universal purpose to one's existence.QFT.

i like what you said about the symbol of hope, but im not trying to find the meaning of myself as an individual, i want us to start thinking of the meaning of life as a whole, the meaning to our OWN lives is subjective, but there can only be one reason as to why we as human beings are here in the first place (my opinion anyway)Has the idea ever struck you that we are meant to live, be happy and then die?

EDIT: i don't consider myself a nihilist because i don't reject society and the laws, that come with it, i think what we have done is GREAT, i think most of our modernizations had to happen, but at the same time i think we are blindly advancing our civilization just because that's what we've been doing for so long, it's just kind of our default setting, we've done all we can to make ourselves comfortable in the world but now we need to know WHY we are here as conscious human beings in the first place.We haven't though. If we had done everything then people wouldn't die daily from malnutrition, starvation, dehydration and diseases from drinking dirty water.

btw sapphire
im glad to see someone actually arguing their point of view,it's a nice change, i don't see that much often around here, i usually find myself in a one sided conversationLol thank you.

[Master_Miyagi]

What convinces you that there is a whole meaning in the first place? Why can there not be no group-meaning and only an individual one?

thats the point, i don't know if there is a group-meaning or not, i desperately want to find out what (if there is one) our meaning as a whole is, as of right now i know MY meaning of life, and i understand that it may change as i live my life.
if i dedicated my entire life to philosophy and eventually found out that there really is no group-meaning, and that i've been wasting my time, i would see it as a success because i know that there is no greater purpose, and that ALL our actions throughout time has been justified in some way. but on the other hand, if i found that we DO have a greater meaning after all i would still see it as a success, because then we as a race could change what we're doing accordingly.

[Sage]

thats the point, i don't know if there is a group-meaning or not, i desperately want to find out what (if there is one) our meaning as a whole is, as of right now i know MY meaning of life, and i understand that it may change as i live my life.
if i dedicated my entire life to philosophy and eventually found out that there really is no group-meaning, and that i've been wasting my time, i would see it as a success because i know that there is no greater purpose, and that ALL our actions throughout time has been justified in some way. but on the other hand, if i found that we DO have a greater meaning after all i would still see it as a success, because then we as a race could change what we're doing accordingly.

It's silly to search for something you only assume exists. How would you find a meaning that spans the entire race? Do you really think we could all agree on something and work as an entire planet to pursue it?

Not to be a pessimist, but that's just wishful thinking.

[Master_Miyagi]

It's silly to search for something you only assume exists. How would you find a meaning that spans the entire race? Do you really think we could all agree on something and work as an entire planet to pursue it?

Not to be a pessimist, but that's just wishful thinking.


it may be wishful, but our greatest thinkers who changed the world were just wishful thinkers, i believe anything is possible.

[Sage]

it may be wishful, but our greatest thinkers who changed the world were just wishful thinkers, i believe anything is possible.

Please give me a few examples of great thinkers in the past who have done some wishful thinking on a comparable scale to your hopes of everyone on the entire planet working towards a common cause.

Also, that's an 'appeal to authority' logical fallacy. Just because people better than you held a similar position and were right does not automatically make you right.

[Sapphire]

Master_Miyagi it is arrogant to place yourself on the same level as people like Aristotle, Plato and Descartes without any basis apart from your desire to uncover a universal meaning of life.

[bennybronx]

Master_Miyagi it is arrogant to place yourself on the same level as people like Aristotle, Plato and Descartes without any basis apart from your desire to uncover a universal meaning of life.

He hasnt, all he said is these people did it with wishful thinking, why cant i? That isnt placing himself on the same level as them, more aspiring to imitate their success.

If a fireman, who came from brooklyn, meets or has influenced a child (also from brooklyn) indirectly into becomig a fireman, that child is not on the same level as the fireman, merely aspiring to become like him, just like miyagi is aspiring to be like those pilosophers, and this is how he intends it.

I aggree in the present day i think people have lst ther idea of why they are alive (compared to centuries ago) but i think thats because people are more sceptical now.

[Master_Miyagi]

Master_Miyagi it is arrogant to place yourself on the same level as people like Aristotle, Plato and Descartes without any basis apart from your desire to uncover a universal meaning of life.

??? where did you get that?

[Sapphire]

??? where did you get that?
Maybe you could address the other points I've made as well. Not just this one.