Abortion Yes or No

[TheWizard]

Title says it all

[redcar]

this is not a very easy decision to make, as a Catholic i think a part of it is wrong, and that its a life you are killing, so i think abortion should not be carried out if someone just gets stupid and not uses contraceptive.

although i think it should be available to victims of rape et cetra.

[kolte]

I'm pro choice, its the mothers desision. the baby is not a person yet.

[redcar]

well if that happens they are up shit creek without a paddle. i dont like how we have gone with ahving abortions left rite and centre, there is a risk with sex and that risk can not be ignored.

But with modern day technology, it can be! :roll:
i dont think u can be so blase about life.

[Kiros]

I'm really for all that Alex said, but I actually voted No. Only in the most extreme cases (rape and such) should abortion be accepted. If contraceptive failed, then they should have been prepared for the consequences. :|

[Underage_Thinker]

I think that it should be the mothers desition B/C it is not technaly a person ontill it leaves the mothers vagina.

[redcar]

i see it as a person even inside the womb, because it eats, it kicks it moves, and can survive after only 22 weeks of pregnancy, they are alive, and to kill just because you didnt take proper precautions is not the right thing to do.

[Underage_Thinker]

ya but think about this.
say a 15 year old has sex with her bf without contresetive. She gets pregnant and 9 months later the baby is born. The mother is forced to drope out of highschool and the kid lives a poor life, or is adopted never knowing what or who his/her mother was. I know it ruens lives b/c my cousen had a kid when she was 14 and now she is a drug attick and homeless.

[redcar]

ya but think about this.
say a 15 year old has sex with her bf without contresetive. She gets pregnant and 9 months later the baby is born. The mother is forced to drope out of highschool and the kid lives a poor life, or is adopted never knowing what or who his/her mother was. I know it ruens lives b/c my cousen had a kid when she was 14 and now she is a drug attick and homeless.

no offence but tough shit. you play with fire u will get burnt. every action has an equal an opposite reaction.

and as for adopted, i am adopted, and to be honest never really give much thought to my natural mother and the circumstances to which i was born.

[Underage_Thinker]

ya but think about this would you trade one life for another. Ruen one life for the chance that a baby mite have a decent life.

[redcar]

ya but think about this would you trade one life for another. Ruen one life for the chance that a baby mite have a decent life.

if a child is adopted the chance of it having a decent life are greatly increased. adoption agencies do not just hand over children to the first people who come along.

and in these cases every learns, the mother learns not to have unprotected sex, friends and family also learn this leason as well.

and wat do you mean trade one life for another. whos life is being traded for wat.

[Underage_Thinker]

Learn a lesson? in life u don't get second chances from my exspearences. You just get angwash. and you say the baby is a person because it eats. Well actully it isnt eating it is taking the nutrents from the mother. Thus its life is unsustainable without the mother. So the mother should be able to make the desition.

[redcar]

Learn a lesson? in life u don't get second chances from my exspearences. You just get angwash. and you say the baby is a person because it eats. Well actully it isnt eating it is taking the nutrents from the mother. Thus its life is unsustainable without the mother. So the mother should be able to make the desition.

no u dont. but other people learn. if somone u know gets pregnant too young, u will learn to be more careful.

and the baby is a person. it lives. its heart beats. it moves.

[Underage_Thinker]

No it is a fetus b/c it canot live without that connection to its mother. It heart beats b/c of its mothers heart it moves b/c of the mother

P>S u relize we are like the only ones posting. And i think some girls should post considering they are the only ones here who can actuly can get pregnant.

[redcar]

No it is a fetus b/c it canot live without that connection to its mother. It heart beats b/c of its mothers heart it moves b/c of the mother

P>S u relize we are like the only ones posting. And i think some girls should post considering they are the only ones here who can actuly can get pregnant.


yes it can live, they have been known to live after only 22 weeks of pregnancy. they are alive.

true they are the only ones who can get pregnant but, it takes two to tango.

[Underage_Thinker]

ya but i think they get the bad end of the deal . Painful peirods every month( painful from what my friend that are girls say). Then get pregnant and go through painful childbirth. And no they can't live on their own without teir mother after 22 weeks. They would be so under devoluped maby one in a 100 millon would live

[redcar]

ya but i think they get the bad end of the deal . Painful peirods every month( painful from what my friend that are girls say). Then get pregnant and go through painful childbirth. And no they can't live on their own without teir mother after 22 weeks. They would be so under devoluped maby one in a 100 millon would live

bad end of the deal, maybe. but thats a positive thing being able to give birth. because with the great pain comes great love, and such greatness.

and yes it has been proven some babies have survived at 22 weeks.

[Underage_Thinker]

The key word is some their have also been some baibys that have been joined at the head. But the key word is some

And i am saying is u were talking about how it takes two to tango like guys actuly do anything. All i am saying is all guys have to do is have sex and it is over. Girls have to carry this zygote/fetus/ebryo for 9 months

[redcar]

but if there is a chance the child can live, then its murder.

[Underage_Thinker]

Ok u think that way well. Then say a man fell off a thousand foot high cliff into a water that would kill sombody in fifteen minuts if they entered. Shoul sombody go after him and probly die just b/c their is a posiblity that the person that fell could live? And if the person did not try to save him would it be murder.

P.s i think their should be limits to abortion. Like u shouldn't abort after a set amount of time.

[redcar]

ok i think my view on abortion is coming across a bit dodgy now.

i dont like how our society is with having abortions for the sake of it.

i do agree with them in cases of rape et cetra.

and yes there is limits on when u can have an abortion, i dont know wat they are, cause abortion is illegal in ireland, but they do exist in other countries.

[Underage_Thinker]

Y a i don't think that adults should have abortion just b/c they don't want to have a kid. But i do think that if a teenager gets pregnant( witch i think should be the first line of defence, not getting pregnant) i think she should have the choceto have a abortion.

P.s i live in america were i think there are no restrictions on abortions

[WelshLad]

I voted yes. I don't see why not.
Because you could have been aborted

I'm pro choice, its the mothers desision. the baby is not a person yet.

ya but think about this.
say a 15 year old has sex with her bf without contresetive. She gets pregnant and 9 months later the baby is born. The mother is forced to drope out of highschool and the kid lives a poor life, or is adopted never knowing what or who his/her mother was. I know it ruens lives b/c my cousen had a kid when she was 14 and now she is a drug attick and homeless.



I couldn't say yes or no to this. If my gf became preganant, I would probably ask her to have an abortion (as she's 15). I don't want to her ruin her life. I agree that if the child is unwanted - adoption is th best answer but the child will eventually want to find out his/her birthparents and there would be permanent mental scars on the parents and child.
I don't like the idea that a human can just be discarded and life becomes devalued.

This is what contraception is for. If the couple doesn't use any, they should pay the price and have the baby. If they become homeless and a drug addict, it's their fault.

A person is a person when they become a foetus. Just because they're inside of someone, doesn't mean they're not human. Like Alex said, the foetus breathes, feeds, kicks and feels pain. I was under the impression that people do this as well.

[redcar]

adoption is th best answer but the child will eventually want to find out his/her birthparents and there would be permanent mental scars on the parents and child.

thats not always the case. i am adopted but i am not mentally scared. i think it depends on how its all handled.

[WelshLad]

adoption is th best answer but the child will eventually want to find out his/her birthparents and there would be permanent mental scars on the parents and child.

thats not always the case. i am adopted but i am not mentally scared. i think it depends on how its all handled.

i meant more on the parents than the child. The child feels more curiosity. Wouldn't you like to meet your birth parents?

[redcar]

adoption is th best answer but the child will eventually want to find out his/her birthparents and there would be permanent mental scars on the parents and child.

thats not always the case. i am adopted but i am not mentally scared. i think it depends on how its all handled.

i meant more on the parents than the child. The child feels more curiosity. Wouldn't you like to meet your birth parents?

to be perfectly honeset no. they are just some people that happened that are there who gave birth to me. to me my real mam is the person in the room next to me, and my dad dead.

but thats just me, i know some people are different. and u are rite it is hard on parents.

[Underage_Thinker]

See my deal is that i think abortion should be used only if it is going to have a negitive life changing affect on the mother.

[WelshLad]

and I think that the mother wouldn't have to make an decision to abort or not if she was sensible and responsible

[Underage_Thinker]

ya but that is after the fact. If we lived in a perfict world people wouldn't have sex untell they were married. but that is not the case, people don't think about conseqenses and the fact of the matter is that their are too many people on this earth.

[serial-thrilla]

abortion should be legal in all cases. its a free country and its the mothers choice. who cares if its an innocent baby? its not a real person yet and it could interfere with the life of someone much more important.

[Dfsg]

abortion should be legal in all cases. its a free country and its the mothers choice. who cares if its an innocent baby? its not a real person yet and it could interfere with the life of someone much more important.

I dare anyone to argue my legal debate on this matter. While I am morally opposed, there are several laws that come into conflict.

I draw on the case, Kurr v the State of Michigan. In this case, a woman pregnant with 4 non-viable (not able to live outside the mother) fetuses was attacked by her boyfriend. She wanted to keep her children, but her boyfriend wanted her to abort them. The boyfriend proceded to punch Kurr in the womb threatening that he would abort them in this manner. To protect her fetuses, she shot and killed her boyfriend.

This brings several laws into action. Self defense in Michigan is allowed only if the force used in defense is equal to or lesser than the force used against them. Also, a person may defend another person as long as the force used is equal or lesser than the force that they are facing. This means that if someone was about to be shot, a third party may kill the person who is about to kill the other.

Kurr used this defense as she was defending her fetuses as a third party. The boyfriend used deadly force against the fetuses, so she used deadly force against him. She won her case.

The law only states that you can protect a person using the defense of a third party defense. This ruling recognized the fetuses as people with all rights to life thereof.

If Kurr had lost her case, she would have been found to be using deadly force against a boyfriend who was simply assaulting her (he would have simply been hitting a ball of nonviable cells), and she would have been convicted of 2nd degree murder.

Here's the question- Should a mother not be able to protect her fetuses? If a mother can not because abortion laws define a fetus as non-viable, it creates a precident where boyfriends or husbands can force an abortion with only a misdemeanor crime of assault. If abortion is shot down, a mother is given full motherly protection of her fetuses with felony murder charges given to anyone who threatens their existance.

Debate that pro-choicers. I didn't even have to touch moral issues, which I could.

[Elokyn]

I'm pro-choice.

If 2 teenagers are having sex and the contraception fails...let her make her choice

If a grown women is walking is the street and is raped...let her make her choice.

I don't believe that it's okay to kill a baby (yes that's what it is) if you're raped, but not if there's an accident.
It's like saying...okay you were a 35 year old smart, beautiful, succesful woman and you were raped ..it's okay for you to have an abortion because it wasn't your choice...it was horrible what happened (and it is) but then to turn around and say
okay you're a 13 year old girl with a 17 year old boyfriend and you're very impressionable and none to bright and very ignorant to the things of the world. You have sex with him and the condom breaks...he leaves...you're stuck. Enjoy the rest of your ruined life.

It just...yeah I think I made my point lol a lot of people disagree with me, but that's okay :)

Personally I can't say honestly if it's a choice I would make or not. I would have a lot of complications with a pregnancy anyway so I may not be able to have a child. If at this point in time I were to get pregnant I would keep it..only if it came from Joseph.

[beautifullytragic]

I agree with dfsg, kiros, and redcar. abortion is WRONG! I'm not going to try to argue the point, cuz I could sit here and type to back up my opinion all day! I don't want to offend anyone. I'm also Catholic and pro-life all the way!

[BeautyFromPain]

my opinion..i think abortion is ok under certain circumstances. as in..lets say a girl gets raped theres a good reason to get one..or lets say a girl whos 13..14 years old..thats exceptable..but i do not think that you should use abortion as a birth control..i guess thats pretty much what nykole said isnt it?

[Dfsg]

Well, to Nykole and MMfwcl, according to Michigan v Kurr, you'd be a murderer.

[serial-thrilla]

Well, to Nykole and MMfwcl, according to Michigan v Kurr, you'd be a murderer. they arent born yet, they arent people. kill em if you dont want em.

[boognish]

About what Dfsg had said about a case that had made the woman's unborn children be used as the people being attacked and since they were people the woman was allowed to kill the man by 3rd party defence. please relize that killing the children that way could also have been fatal to the mother also. also i wouldnt put much trust in what court cases say like that for example there was a case in texas about a man that murdered his best friend and hid his body. he decapitated his friend, cut up his body and threw him in the woods. that man, never went to jail, why? the murder and the disposing of the body were "accidents". another example i would like to give is a phrase, "if the glove does not fit you must aquit" now those verdicts were bull. but a good lawyer can do wonders.

i am a man of non-faith. i do not rule my life or my beliefs on Gods veiw. the idea of when a baby is a person is a big thing. i personally fell abortion should be legal and allowed up to the 22 week after that i fell that the child have developed to far and could be considered murder and cause trama to the mother, here is another's view on when fetuses are condsiderd "human"

"Whether or not abortion should be legal turns on the answer to the question of whether and at what point a fetus is a person. This is a question that cannot be answered logically or empirically. The concept of personhood is neither logical nor empirical: It is essentially a religious, or quasi-religious idea, based on one's fundamental (and therefore unverifiable) assumptions about the nature of the world." Paul Campos, professor of law at the University of Colorado. (2002)

forcing every mother in the world to give birth to every child ever conceived, well im afraid that out population would not be able to hold it. we have already over populated this earth, there is not enough area in the earth for the amount of housing needed. we are already being forced into smaller and smaller confines to survive. nowadays it is enough space for a 10 person family in a 3 bedroom home. that is how bad it has gotten, when 10 people fell comfertable in 3 bedrooms. really, i know its messed up but i think there should be a age limit to how old you can grow to, yeah i know it is fucked up. but i dont think people that have become demening to society shouldnt be paid for to keep alive (i.e. Jail, social socurity, etc.)

after 22 weeks an unborn baby i agree is human and should not be aborted, but earlier is fine. abortion can not be done after 22 weeks i think. its not legal, why? because science recognizes them as human, but before that there is no sign that there is any thought processes going on, and the child can not live without the mother before that point. if you will not allow abortion, how about allowing forced premature births? if they are human the entire pregnancy then they should be allowed to be born at any point, are you going to deny them the right to be born?

[redcar]

you are slighly wrong there. contraception is not murder. there is no life being killed so its not murder.

[serial-thrilla]

nor is abortion

[Dfsg]

It's life according to the Courts of Michigan. Although some may not trust our Legal system, the courts ruling is simply that a mother has the right to protect her unborn fetuses. Would you want to strip a mother of that right?

Lets look at this- to be life, something must Grow, move, respond to stimuli, respire, have metabolism, reproduce on their own (which is why viruses aren't life), and excrete. Face it- an 11 year old boy can not reproduce. Should we be able to kill him just because he doesn't fit the biological criterea of life? No! He can potentially reproduce, just as a fetus can potentially do all of the biological mechanisms of life. You silly definition of life is skewed.

So, you abortion lovers must think that mothers CAN NOT IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCE protect their fetuses. Also, why don't you allow abortion of 11 year olds. They certainly don't exactly fit the criteria of life. Hypocracy, that's all it is.

[evw93]

ITS SO WRONG. Its murder, and sick

[WelshLad]

A sperm does not have heart
It does not breathe
It does not feel pain
It does not have emotions
It does not have senses
It is not a life - It is a cell - Contraception is therefore not murder.

A foetus has a heart
It breathes, it can feel pain
It has emotions and senses
It is a life when the heart starts beating - Aborting an embryo is not murder - aborting a foetus is.

[kolte]

ITS SO WRONG. Its murder, and sick

every time you breath in air you kill millions of air born organisims....murderer.

every time you take a step you kill millions of air born organisims....murderer.

every time a guy beats off he kill thousands upon thousands of happy little baby-to-bes....murderer.

you know, with todays tech. we can find out if a woman is pregnant before the baby is any more then a disturbing group of congealed cells...a small, lizardlike creature. in fact, its almost impossible to tell the human embryo from the pig embryo. if its not even a human yet, doenst have a brain, or a heart, or lungs, or hands. in other words, if its in the stage that abortion is legal today. then why the hell not. Scramble the little bastard into mush and vacume it out. its not an intity, it has not nervous system to speak of, its a ball of mush that survives by feeding off its mother, sharing the same blood stream, the same lungs the same everything. at this point its more logical to call it a virus, why? at that junture it shares more charactoristics with a virus then a human. its nothing, you don't protest people walking or breathing or beating off and killing all those happy go lucky spermcells and airborn organisims. so don't trip out when a brainless, heartless, shapeless, nothing, is killed. NONE OF YOU BUSINESS. its only your business when your future is at stake. and now, I shall quote a song:

mary got pregnant from a kid named tom who said he was in love
he said don't worry 'bout a thing baby doll I'm the man youve been dreaming of
three weeks later he won't date her or return her calls
and she swears god damn if i find that man I'm cutting off his balls.
so she heads to the clinic and she gets some static walking threw the door
they call her a killer and they call her a sinner and they call her a whore
God forbid you ever have to walk a mile in her shoes
cuz then you really might know what its like to have to choose
then you really might know what its like
then you really might know what its like x2


EDIT: oh yeah, and our population will actually fall slightly in the 2020s 30s 40s when the baby boomers die out. so yeah. about the overpopulaiton things.

[redcar]

i dont think our population will fall unless we experience a natural catasrophe. its always going to keep growing.

[kolte]

its not just somthing I alone think. its a scientific hypothesis. The population will, perhaps not FALL but will slow down ENCREDIBLY at least in america when the baby boomer's die. the baby boomers, for those of you who don't know, were people born in the 50's 60's era. there was a huge 'BOOM' in the population across, at least america, i don't know about the rest of the world, thus most of our parents are baby boomers. at least, mine are.

[boognish]

It's life according to the Courts of Michigan. Although some may not trust our Legal system, the courts ruling is simply that a mother has the right to protect her unborn fetuses. Would you want to strip a mother of that right?

Lets look at this- to be life, something must Grow, move, respond to stimuli, respire, have metabolism, reproduce on their own (which is why viruses aren't life), and excrete. Face it- an 11 year old boy can not reproduce. Should we be able to kill him just because he doesn't fit the biological criterea of life? No! He can potentially reproduce, just as a fetus can potentially do all of the biological mechanisms of life. You silly definition of life is skewed.

So, you abortion lovers must think that mothers CAN NOT IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCE protect their fetuses. Also, why don't you allow abortion of 11 year olds. They certainly don't exactly fit the criteria of life. Hypocracy, that's all it is.
well first off i would like to say that the michigan courts are lower courts and the high coutrs, the supreme court, says abbortion is legal and constitutional, so if your arguing against abortion, your arguing against the court system and your arguing against the contitution. if you dont want everyone to have rights, say so.

and the thing that viruses arent living things because they cant reproduce "by themselves" you realize right that only asexual organisms can reprodue "by themselves" and humans are one of the "few" that are not asexual. so under your definition of live, we arnt alive. also viruses DO reproduce, so learn your facts. the reason that viruses are not considered living, and that its being debated is that they arnt active all the time, they are only "alive" when they come in contact with a cell. well a baby is only alive when its in contact with its mother. when you take it away the fetus dies. after a point the baby will live without the mother, but not without ETREME assitance.

if you take away the RIGHT to an abortion, the RIGHT for the mother to choose a better life for her and her potential baby, because it is true that if the mother is sad, depressed, and has a bad life its most likely the baby wont be the greatest person in the world. also if you give an unborn baby more rights then the person it is infecting, because in all respects until it leaves the baby is a virus, then you would have to give viruses rights too. why? to be fair. thats why. if baby in virus form = human, living then virus = living. and since it is wrong to kill living things, then we shouldnt be allowed to interfere with the natural part of things. also if you are going to mention that a virus is just 1 cell, so were you

[Underage_Thinker]

forcing every mother in the world to give birth to every child ever conceived, well im afraid that out population would not be able to hold it. we have already over populated this earth, there is not enough area in the earth for the amount of housing needed. we are already being forced into smaller and smaller confines to survive. nowadays it is enough space for a 10 person family in a 3 bedroom house

Amen acording to most siences the earths sustanable population is at 250 million humans. we are currently at somthing like 6 billon, and the numeber is growing at a expediential rate. we are adding rufly 6 millon people to the earth every three weeks. That is the eqwivelent size of Las angelus. So what if some kids don't be born. We are alread grossly overpopulated.

[kolte]

Amen acording to most siences the earths sustanable population is at 250 million humans. we are currently at somthing like 6 billon, and the numeber is growing at a expediential rate. we are adding rufly 6 millon people to the earth every three weeks. That is the eqwivelent size of Las angelus. So what if some kids don't be born. We are alread grossly overpopulated.

I have trouble believing that number. sustanable population 250 million. there are way more people in the unitedstates alone. If we conserve our resourses and create a world bound under peace, we could duble in fact tripple our population without problem. you could fit all the population of the world in a humongous neighborhood the size of texas if you wanted to. We have the power to overcome all obsticles.

abortion is not a beautiful thing. its not a cause for celibration. it shouldnt be conducted. but god damnit we should have the right. the baby is part of the mother for the first month or so it has not brain and no real human charactoristic's. If the mother doesnt want it. its none of your business.

danke'

peace

[WelshLad]

yeh but think about the quality of life in shitty, cramped countries because there's too many people. There aren't too many people in the world really, but they should be spread out more. However, the way we're heading, there will be too many people. But a reason for abortion shouldn't be because there's too many people in the world - it should be something like the child couldn't be raised due to financial/domestic problems, young age etc.

[kolte]

you should never have unprotected sex with sombody if you don't know if they have aids or anything like that. its not just for babies, its for aids, herpies, hep.

[redcar]

you should never have unprotected sex with sombody if you don't know if they have aids or anything like that. its not just for babies, its for aids, herpies, hep.

although in saying that devout Christians wont use contraception. one of my friends is point blank against it. although its not something i agree with, everyone should use protection.

[kolte]

"doesn't want a kid, wants to have unprotected sex, and can afford to keep aborting"

yeah quoting that, we all should use protection...we want to live to see another day

[Underage_Thinker]

Amen acording to most siences the earths sustanable population is at 250 million humans. we are currently at somthing like 6 billon, and the numeber is growing at a expediential rate. we are adding rufly 6 millon people to the earth every three weeks. That is the eqwivelent size of Las angelus. So what if some kids don't be born. We are alread grossly overpopulated.

I have trouble believing that number. sustanable population 250 million. there are way more people in the unitedstates alone. If we conserve our resourses and create a world bound under peace, we could duble in fact tripple our population without problem. you could fit all the population of the world in a humongous neighborhood the size of texas if you wanted to. We have the power to overcome all obsticles.
It is true the earth is only able to support approxementily 250 million humans. Currently we use up about 50% of the earths water and land resorces, that forces the rest of the animal kindom do fight for the rest. We can not continu to live this whay. if we do we face compleat and total Annihilation. So taking one human off the earth is not going to cripple the population. Why do you think that after the black plaque whitch wiped out 1/2 of the population of europe, their was the Renaissance. The reson why is b/c their were less people. Death is just another part of life, and without it we would all be dead.

[Dfsg]

First off boog, I don't appreciate folks bashing my biological knowledge using false facts. You have met a biology guru.

Your comparison of Fetuses and viruses is quite odd. Viruses reproduce when they inject DNA or RNA into a cell and use the host cell's reproduction capabilities to reproduce. This means that the virus does not reproduce, its DNA/RNA is only reproduced when a host cell reproduces. Also, a virus has no chromosomes, while a human fetus has 46 (This is also why fetuses, while similar to other fetuses, grow into quite different organisms, they are fundimentally different due to this point).

You also say that a virus is just a cell, and that I was also just a cell at one point. Viruses are 100s of times or even 1,000,000s of times smaller than the smallest of cells. Their construction is hugely different. They are in no way, shape, or form, cells. Interestingly, a female ova is just about the size of the period that I use at the end of this sentance. An ostrich egg is the largest known cell. My size as a zygote is HUGELY larger than a virus.

-

Now on to the legal debate, which, although I am not a legal expert, I do enjoy arguing it. I simply point out that cases such as Michigan v Kurr set a precident that will one day make it to the Supreme Court for further decision. They show the flaws to Roe v Wade. If you allow abortion to the relatively small number of women seeking it, you strip the relatively large number of women who want to keep their children from the right to protect their fetuses. What do you think should happen to a boyfriend uses simple misdemeanor assault to abort her girlfriend's fetuses? Let us hope that the Roberts Court will change things.

Hurah to Samuel Alito and John Roberts!

[kolte]

Now on to the legal debate, which, although I am not a legal expert, I do enjoy arguing it. I simply point out that cases such as Michigan v Kurr set a precident that will one day make it to the Supreme Court for further decision. They show the flaws to Roe v Wade. If you allow abortion to the relatively small number of women seeking it, you strip the relatively large number of women who want to keep their children from the right to protect their fetuses. What do you think should happen to a boyfriend uses simple misdemeanor assault to abort her girlfriend's fetuses? Let us hope that the Roberts Court will change things.

Hurah to Samuel Alito and John Roberts!

yeeeeaaaahhhh what in the fuck are you talking about. its not stripping anyones rights. if a guy does that, which he could do today, that like, lets see, maul pratice, praticing medicine without a lisense, abuse, sexual abuse, mental abuse, sooooooooooo many things. but that won't change just because abortions legeal, you wouldnt be able to do it yourslef, you would still have to go to the clinic. I mean, really, WTF do you think would happen if abortion was legeal. it is legeal now dumbfuck? good lord, what is wrong with you people, you somehow think somthing horrid will happen if abortion is legeal. IT IS LEGEAL NOTHING BAD IS HAPPENING. fukc I don't want full blown abortion to be right, it the baby is more then a cuple month old, too late in my books, its developing a brain by then, its alive. but jesus, you all are blowing this out of proportion. FREAKIN OUT

[kolte]

but really though....come on

[Underage_Thinker]

yeah i agree. People act like if we allow abortion, civilization as we know it will be destroyed.

[kolte]

yeah i agree. People act like if we allow abortion, civilization as we know it will be destroyed.

word. its not a huge deal, if they really cared about the lives of the children, they can go to africa were kids die but the tens of thousands. save a life, give a child a smile. :P

[Dfsg]

but really though....come on

It's never happened? What do you think Kurr v Michigan talks about? It's a guy who tried to abort his girlfriend's fetuses.

Under Roe v Wade, A boyfriend could abort his girlfriend's fetus, even though she may want to keep it, and get away with a misdemeanor crime (if you don't understand how this is practical, read my discussion of the case). Do you like that? Is that fair? Does a mother have the right to protect her fetuses?

I ask that question above all: Does a mother have the right to protect her fetuses?

[kolte]

yes she has that right. but just because abortion is legealized doesnt mean a boyfriend can't still do that. but then what? it would be murder? i wouldnt go that far. Mental/sexual/physical abuse many other things, that are NOT just misdimeaners. its much more then that. But abortion being Illegeal. Do you want all the people to go down to mexico, to a dingy, maule pratice clinic and get hepititus trying to abort there baby. I think we should have the right to do it at home.

[Dfsg]

They are all terrible things, but still misdemeanors in the eyes of the law. Killing a woman's fetuses should be a felony offense, which means that the fetuses have to be considered persons with rights.

[serial-thrilla]

do you think everyone who fucks wants to have a baby?

[kolte]

Abortion is just, how you say, economical.....maybe its just me, but I think most republican's just got burned.

[Underage_Thinker]

ya i don't realy see much oposition anymore. So i gusse we win

[Dfsg]

No one will ever really win this debate. It's all up to the Supreme Court now. It's only a matter of time until this type of case hits them. It's a completely new court now. Although, Sam Alito did vote in more of a liberal viewpoint recently, on the death of a man. (That's a case where I"m very un-republican, I'm 99% against the death penalty...)

We'll see how things go in the future!

[kolte]

Indeed we will Dfsg. indeed we will. I'm couries about what direction our government will go.

[BeautyFromPain]

i didnt write this but it made me a little teary-eyed..and that doesnt happen often AT all.

6weeks old today Mommy,
A birthday gift for me.
A pair of big blue eyes,
Through one day I shall see.
Where are we going Mommy?
With the rain pouring down.
And when it hits the sidewalk,
It makes a funny sound.
BANG! Through the big white doors.
There are people dressed in green.
If they hurt you Mommy,
Just run away..it's ok to scream.
Help me Mommy!
They're tearing me apart!
There goes my big blue eyes.
There goes my little heart.
I love you Mommy,
Believe me I do.
But what's hurts the most is
I thought you loved me too.

gah that really makes me teary-eyed!

[kolte]

i didnt write this but it made me a little teary-eyed..and that doesnt happen often AT all.

6weeks old today Mommy,
A birthday gift for me.
A pair of big blue eyes,
Through one day I shall see.
Where are we going Mommy?
With the rain pouring down.
And when it hits the sidewalk,
It makes a funny sound.
BANG! Through the big white doors.
There are people dressed in green.
If they hurt you Mommy,
Just run away..it's ok to scream.
Help me Mommy!
They're tearing me apart!
There goes my big blue eyes.
There goes my little heart.
I love you Mommy,
Believe me I do.
But what's hurts the most is
I thought you loved me too.

gah that really makes me teary-eyed!

6 weeks old you say, how cute, it hasnt quite developed a nervous system and brain yet, but how cute anyway.......if it could feel or have concious thought at that state, it would be sad, however, it cant feel or think, so its not a human.

[Charlotte]

I found this on a website:

An Interesting Quiz

How would you respond in these situations?

1. A preacher and his wife are very, very poor. They already have 14 kids. Now she finds out she’s pregnant with the 15th. They’re living in tremendous poverty. Considering their poverty and the excessive world population, would you consider recommending she get an abortion?

2. The father is sick with sniffles, the mother has TB. Of their four children, the first is blind, the second has died, the third is deaf, the fourth has TB. She finds she’s pregnant again. Given this extreme situation, would you consider recommending abortion?

3. A white man raped a 13-year-old black girl and she’s now pregnant. If you were her parents, would you consider recommending abortion?

4. A teenage girl is pregnant. She’s not married. Her fiancé is not the father of the baby, and he’s upset. Would you recommend abortion?

In the first case, you would have killed John Wesley, one of the great evangelists in the 19th century. In the second case, you would have killed Beethoven. In the third case, you would have killed Ethel Waters, the great black gospel singer. If you said yes to the fourth case, you would have declared the murder of Jesus Christ!


Anyways..........

Its not a question of "when does life begin", its the fact that tt will begin as long as it is allowed to, and killing a foetus before it is medically "alive" doesn't take away from what the foetus could have turned in to. The time you kill a foetus, and whether you strategically kill it before it is theoretically "living", does not take away from the fact that the act of abortion is, ultimately, murder of human life, whether real or potential. A foetus is a living organism, and its entire purpose is to grow into a human. I believe it does not serve anyone to deprive a baby of this right.

Look at Ethel Waters, to see what I mean. Her person and her music touched so many lives, and has been immensely enjoyed for years. If she as a baby had been aborted, not only would Ethel Waters never lived but instead been murdered, all the thousands, millions of people who enjoyed her work so much would have been deprived of the wonder of it. She was more than a gospel singer - she was a black icon; a symbol of racial equality.

I feel sympathy for girls who get raped and become pregnant, and get gossiped about or miss studies at school, but in the face of life, an actual human life whether potential or real, these misfortunes sound trivial in my opinion. Education is an incredible luxury that many people don't have. If you're pregnant the first choice to make is "does my baby live or does it die". Noone can force you to make a specific choice, or go through anything beyond that choice. The only thing you have to do is choose. You can kill or not kill. But would you really kill just so no girls gossip behind your back? Would you really kill just to get your A in Maths? Responsibility, whether the pregnancy your fault or no, I believe should be taken and sacrifices made. This life is a great experience no one deserves to miss. And people reduce the greatness of their own experiences by murder, and by not letting babies have the choice to grow and give out great joy to everyone else, including those who do the abortion themselves! Its senseless.

Yet everyday people kill unborn babies; it's almost as if they don't realize their babies' potential! The child could become an American president who manages to stabilize the Middle East situation, or a doctor who finds the cure for cancer, or merely someone who has a family of their own and loves them very much. No one in the world should be deprived of the joy each single human being brings into the world. lts almost like people don't know this, but surely that can't be the case?!

[kolte]

I found this on a website:

An Interesting Quiz

How would you respond in these situations?

1. A preacher and his wife are very, very poor. They already have 14 kids. Now she finds out she’s pregnant with the 15th. They’re living in tremendous poverty. Considering their poverty and the excessive world population, would you consider recommending she get an abortion?

2. The father is sick with sniffles, the mother has TB. Of their four children, the first is blind, the second has died, the third is deaf, the fourth has TB. She finds she’s pregnant again. Given this extreme situation, would you consider recommending abortion?

3. A white man raped a 13-year-old black girl and she’s now pregn

ant. If you were her parents, would you consider recommending abortion?

4. A teenage girl is pregnant. She’s not married. Her fiancé is not the father of the baby, and he’s upset. Would you recommend abortion?

In the first case, you would have killed John Wesley, one of the great evangelists in the 19th century. In the second case, you would have killed Beethoven. In the third case, you would have killed Ethel Waters, the great black gospel singer. If you said yes to the fourth case, you would have declared the murder of Jesus Christ!


Anyways..........

Its not a question of "when does life begin", its the fact that tt will begin as long as it is allowed to, and killing a foetus before it is medically "alive" doesn't take away from what the foetus could have turned in to. The time you kill a foetus, and whether you strategically kill it before it is theoretically "living", does not take away from the fact that the act of abortion is, ultimately, murder of human life, whether real or potential. A foetus is a living organism, and its entire purpose is to grow into a human. I believe it does not serve anyone to deprive a baby of this right.

Look at Ethel Waters, to see what I mean. Her person and her music touched so many lives, and has been immensely enjoyed for years. If she as a baby had been aborted, not only would Ethel Waters never lived but instead been murdered, all the thousands, millions of people who enjoyed her work so much would have been deprived of the wonder of it. She was more than a gospel singer - she was a black icon; a symbol of racial equality.

I feel sympathy for girls who get raped and become pregnant, and get gossiped about or miss studies at school, but in the face of life, an actual human life whether potential or real, these misfortunes sound trivial in my opinion. Education is an incredible luxury that many people don't have. If you're pregnant the first choice to make is "does my baby live or does it die". Noone can force you to make a specific choice, or go through anything beyond that choice. The only thing you have to do is choose. You can kill or not kill. But would you really kill just so no girls gossip behind your back? Would you really kill just to get your A in Maths? Responsibility, whether the pregnancy your fault or no, I believe should be taken and sacrifices made. This life is a great experience no one deserves to miss. And people reduce the greatness of their own experiences by murder, and by not letting babies have the choice to grow and give out great joy to everyone else, including those who do the abortion themselves! Its senseless.

Yet everyday people kill unborn babies; it's almost as if they don't realize their babies' potential! The child could become an American president who manages to stabilize the Middle East situation, or a doctor who finds the cure for cancer, or merely someone who has a family of their own and loves them very much. No one in the world should be deprived of the joy each single human being brings into the world. lts almost like people don't know this, but surely that can't be the case?!

Ok, first off you have to think of the child in these instances. If a 13 year old is raped, she should have the choice of abortion. If the child is born, who’s going to take care of it? Is it destined to be raised in a dysfunctional family, partially by the now 14 year olds mother, the 14 year old, have to drop out of high school and give up her life to take care of this child. Or the child is taken from her and adopted out, only to end up in foster care for 11 years, suffering and finally taking its own life out of grief.....what about that little 13 year old girl, her life was ruined. Or what if, she died giving birth. It happens quite a bit with young mothers, when there 13,14,15. They have a very large chance of death, the baby even a higher chance of death. So you know what, how about we save all this trouble, and let this poor rape victim have an abortion. Huzzah problem solved, the girl goes own to be a wealthy congresswoman finally bringing her family out of poverty, she gets married has three children, and life goes as intended.

What about the modern family with obvious histories of birth deformations. A deaf baby, a blind baby, a baby with down syndrome. As lovely as this family sounds, they are going to struggle enough as it is. The children will NOT grow up to have normal lives, they will most likely be forced to live on disability or have a happy job at the local Wal-Mart, joy. Think of the child, it doesn’t want to have to struggle in life, only to die at 30 from stress or suicide.

And don’t bring up Jesus on a debate about abortion. I cant stand Jesus, he’s always brought up, always. Well you know what....you know what I have to say about Jesus.......FUCK JESUS! huzzah that’s my thoughts about your 2000 year old god. Perhaps 2000 years ago, his words would have be worth hearing, but not in the modern era, we now have science that makes religion obsolete. Its good to have philosophy etc. But people kill and die and rape plunder and pillage for “Jesus” what hypocrites.

Now, in conclusion, I would just like to say, at 6 weeks, a baby is characterized as the following:

Stage 6a and 6b
Gastrulation, Chorionic Villi Formation
0.2 mm
13 days post-ovulation
Chorionic villi "fingers" in the forming placenta now anchor the site to the uterus.
The formation of blood and blood vessels of the embryo begins in this stage. The blood system appears first in the area of the "placenta" surrounding the embryo, while the yolk sac begins to produce hematopoietic or non-nucleated blood cells.
By the end of stage 6a, the embryo is attached by a connecting stalk (which will later become part of the umbilical cord), to the developing placenta.
Stage 6b begins when a narrow line of cells appears on the surface of the embryonic disc. This primitive streak is the future axis of the embryo and it marks the beginning of gastrulation, a process that gives rise to all three layers of the embryo: ectoderm, mesoderm and endoderm.

http://www.visembryo.com/baby/stages/6stcelln.gif Look at the cute 6 week old baby....awwwww :roll:

[Charlotte]

hahahahahaha kolte you get so sensitive when someone mentions jesus lol. i'm not exactly a christian. it was just an article thing i found. I see you avoided all the other people zoe and i mentioned and rather immaturely focused your anger towards Jesus. He seems to obviously have a major effect on you even 2,000 years later, like it or not. hehe xD

[kolte]

I didnt avoid all the other people. I used examples for both the family with a history of illness and the young woman who was rapped. The preacher and the poor family with 14 children is unlikly to have an abortion, because its a preacher, therefor i ignored it, and the Jesus thing, I felt obliged to flame because of my anger twords christians and there views. The fact is, abortion is legel now, and should be for all times, its not your child its not your responsibility, and its really none of your business. If you don't support abortion, then don't have an abortion, but don't try and take away rights given by the supreame court of the united states, because you don't think our higher officials are right. Obviously, you, a teenager, is not more intellegent then our supreme court officials, and therefor your opinions don't matter. Do yourself a favour, and try and find another fundimental right given to us by our constitution to rape us of, because the right to secure our futures is in our own hands.

[Charlotte]

(ignore this post. i accidently posted on charlottes name

-_moo_

[kolte]

...maybe you don't realize but this was you. It was me too. It was how every human who has ever existed began. That tiny, barely definable organism becomes a human being. You think because its not a "cute baby", that justifies killing it?! You are scary. How do you know the baby couldn't become congresswoman rather than the mother?

Yes but I was a planned pregnancy. My family had the financial, and education to have a baby. Teenage mothers, most specifically rape victims should not be forbidden to have an abortion. And just because you make it illegal in the United States, doesn’t mean that people won’t still get abortions. A handy little shop in Mexico will do the trick, and now on top of an abortion the Mother has hepatitis. Do you think, even though I support abortion, that it would be an easy thing for me to agree too. If my girlfriend got pregnant it would be a very VERY difficult decision to make. However, I could make it. Its not fair that the child should be born into a world that’s not prepared for it. I grew up close to a foster home, and those kids were messed up. They felt abandoned, alone, scared, different. Two kids from that foster home took there lives, threw confusion. Its not an easy thing to grow up not knowing the facts. Abortion saves the child a life without answers, and saves the mother the pain of childbirth, of people talking behind her back, complications in her education, and if she chose to raise her herself, no education, no social life, poverty. Its not right. It should not be like that.

And to follow along this split topic of abortion and science/religion. Why don’t I believe in God? Because I can do the following: FUCK YOU GOD. And you know what? I’m not struck by lightning, I’m not fearful. And in addition, I don’t want to live forever, hell no! I want it to be over one day, or hell just dissipate into the earth. The afterlife was created to comfort primitive beings fear of death. And that is all. There is no hell, there is no heaven, stop lying to yourself, stop the politicians who oppress the masses with there Christian theology. Stop the wars over false gods, the pain and suffering over ethnic differences brought on by religious ideas. Hitler, Stalin, Osama Bin Laden, the British, the Spanish, civilization after civilization, man after man, woman after woman, killing, and committing genocide, and inducing massacres.........all over religion.
stop the madness.....

And don’t make me seem like a loon for portraying that I figured to kill the baby because its not cute. Abortion at 6 weeks is like killing an ant. The baby is no more intelligent or bigger...then an ant.

[BeautyFromPain]

my point was the poem is sad..

[kolte]

my point was the poem is sad..

and my point is that at 6 weeks a baby doesnt even have a brain and therefor the poem is void.

[kolte]

You speak to me about your fictional god as if I’m ignorant the truth. You clearly look down upon those who claim a Christian faith and walk the other way, and you constantly preach acceptance but come off as intolerant.

“God isn't a vengeful God, a jealous God, a God to fear, a God who your words can offend, a God for whom you must censor what you say, for God knows what you think and feel too, you can't hide these things.”

Somebody doesn’t know there bible. Though I am not a man of faith young Christian, I know the word. 2Ki 17:39 But the LORD your God ye shall fear; and he shall deliver you out of the hand of all your enemies. Your fictional god tells you to fear him. And who wouldn’t? Unless you want to be mauled by a bear. 2Ki 2:23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them. Psa 7:11God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day. Psa 80:4O LORD God of hosts, how long wilt thou be angry against the prayer of thy people? Eccl 5:6Suffer not thy mouth to cause thy flesh to sin; neither say thou before the angel, that it was an error: wherefore should God be angry at thy voice, and destroy the work of thine hands? Holy hell!!!!!!!!!! This god is angry, violent, fearful!!!!!! Why, he mauled 42 kids for calling a prophet a bald head!!!!!! Surly he would strike me down for telling him to fuck off? No? Ok Ok, I know what your going to say young Christian, “but that’s the god of the old testament, when Jesus came, blah blah blah blah blah!” WRONG! Jesus himself instructed, according to Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. So does that mean that all the laws of the prophets that came before Jesus is still in full thrust, exempt of course are the laws he fulfilled. And all Christians should know these laws, for they are the only Laws Jesus laid out to be followed. If you are ignorant the laws of Christ, then please take this time to read Matthew chapters 5 and 6..........................................are you done yet? Good, now that you are done, you realize that the laws passed by Moses explain proper treatment of slaves and women. Wait a minuet minute Young Christian. According to your religion, women are subservient to men, so you arguing with me, regardless of my point of view is against your faith. How about you get your father to debate me. According to the Law Of you fictional God, you should be stoned for dishonoring me. You don’t believe it? Please take this time to read the laws of Moses in genesis exodus Leviticus numbers & Deuteronomy.....................................................done? Good now that you understand that according to your very own religion that you are subservient and buyable I think you can stifle your yawper before you are executed.

What’s that??? You have rights you say? Your not to be treated like that?? You are not going to be talked to like that??? But you are a Christian right???? So you have to follow the laws set down by your faith right???

I’m not a Christian because I believe you should have equal rights. You are not subservient to me. I am no better then anybody else. I believe in love and harmony and peace. I am for conservation of our dying earth. I’m for the modernization and education of our planet. No I don’t believe in God or Jesus. But that’s because they aren’t real to me. The bible wasn’t written by the Gods. Jesus didn’t write the bible he didn’t say those things. And what about the book a Mary not included in the New Testament. What about the book of Enoch. The Book of Adam and Eve. Book after book after book that was written about the same time as all the other books of the bible. Said the same things, portrayed the same truths. Why weren’t they picked. Because the Catholics and Jews who constructed the bible hand picked what they wanted there religion to say. They wanted women to be subservient so the found a book that said that, they wanted this they found a book that said that. Muhammad was around they same time too, and the old testament can be found in the Koran. That’s right, the Muslim god, the Jewish god, the Christian god, there all the same. Buddha was 500 years before Jesus, and he preached the exact same things, loving one another, not judging, not hurting.

To quote my book:

“If we looked at what Jesus thought rather then who he was, then I think we could avoid these deadly conflicts”

And when I wrote that, I didn’t just write if for Jesus, but for everyone, who cares who they were, weather they were the messiah or not, weather they were white, black, red or yellow, male or female, gay or straight, mother of an aborted baby, who cares. Its what a person says that portrays who they are. Not what they look like, or what there title is. Jesus, that’s your Trinitarian god Young Christian, said not to judge. And that’s something we call all practice. Don’t judge. Jesus himself never claimed to be the messiah, he claimed to be the son of god, and he told us we are all brothers and sisters...that makes me the son of god, and you the daughter eh? So why call Jesus the messiah? He himself never made a claim to it. It was many years after his death before the books of the new testament were even considered. Don’t take that book literally.

I retire my argument with a question. Jesus said some important things, he said, love others, he said do not judge to leave the judging to his father, he said to turn the other cheek, so what right do you have to tell me abortion is wrong, when you are asked, by your Trinitarian god, not to judge, hate, or fight me. What right do you have to tell me that because I’m bisexual I will go to hell, or because I’m not religious that I’m a bad person. Leave that to your god Christian....its not your place. What right do you have....to Judge, hate, or fight me?

[BeautyFromPain]

my point was the poem is sad..

and my point is that at 6 weeks a baby doesnt even have a brain and therefor the poem is void.

yeah i mean of course it doesnt have a brain but i just still think its sad..but thats just me.

[kolte]

my point was the poem is sad..

and my point is that at 6 weeks a baby doesnt even have a brain and therefor the poem is void.

yeah i mean of course it doesnt have a brain but i just still think its sad..but thats just me.

about as tragic as a beached jellyfish.....

[ryan29]

koler what is your issue? it seems as if you are contradicting yourself

"I’m not a Christian because I believe you should have equal rights. You are not subservient to me. I am no better then anybody else!" it seems to me as if you think you are better than everyone else

also when was the last time YOU yourself went to church?

i haven't been since xmas and regulary since i was 16 that is a choice i made as i was tired of following my parents (forcing ppl not v christiany? but member the decalogue) but christians believe in equal rights as well. the bible i believe to be fallable so there fore i see that your arguement holds no grounds. if you haven't noticed the world has changed since it was written.

i dont no what your experiences are like to make you with such hatred for christians but i admit that ppl have faults but dont just diss ppls values and bliefs just because of their religion.

you seem to speak as if god is fictional with no proof that he isn't

a atheist once asked a christian "why do you believe in god? you cant see, touch or hear him so why do you think he's there?" the christian replied "can you see air? can you touch it or hear it? no but you know it's there,"

although im not a christian myself (praying for a mountain bike doesn't give you results till your 14, JOKE!) i believe in many key principles of the decalogue and the golden rule as they are used in modern day like in the welfare state and laws

i do believe in god but i think you dont have to follow christian teachings to get into heaven, just listen to your concisence and follow what it says and if you are truly sorry for any transgressions i think god will forgive you. god gave us all the fredom of choice and i think that choice is what is important.

if you or anyone else chooses to be bi or gay or whateva i think god accept that descision

i used to think when i was young (so navie) that weneva it rained god was crying because someone had sinned, to be honest i still hav that feeling, and tht fing is wht i believe


finally ranting finished case of abortion begun

as ive said its down to your own moral conscience, you do have to consider that the child is ill and may die, but can the mother live with the guilt, it can be the case that she can and she can get on with her life as she knows she is emotionally immature enough, but what if she cant? she could hav the baby or adopt it? do you get CBBC in america? cos if you do watch tracy beaker, that is about an adoption home "a dumping ground" and it shows that life isnt just as bleak as what you make out for the kids, koler

back to the ill child arguement, yes its ill and can die and it may be better for it to die without even feeling fresh air, but with so many ppl are fighters, someone who was terminally ill was diagnosed to die at the age of 15, that same person live till the age of 34 and within that life he started up a charity and raised money for it. take chris reeve as example, when he broke his back someppl thought it would be best to let him die, but no he fought and he got better somewhat before he died but he raised money to help others that is the main thing.


therefore my answer to the question
"Abortion, yes or no"

is i think that its down to the mothers and fathers moral conscience and not down to us as individuals though i myself would never want to be responsible of the death of a baby

[kolte]

koler what is your issue? it seems as if you are contradicting yourself

"I’m not a Christian because I believe you should have equal rights. You are not subservient to me. I am no better then anybody else!" it seems to me as if you think you are better than everyone else

also when was the last time YOU yourself went to church?

i haven't been since xmas and regulary since i was 16 that is a choice i made as i was tired of following my parents (forcing ppl not v christiany? but member the decalogue) but christians believe in equal rights as well. the bible i believe to be fallable so there fore i see that your arguement holds no grounds. if you haven't noticed the world has changed since it was written.

i dont no what your experiences are like to make you with such hatred for christians but i admit that ppl have faults but dont just diss ppls values and bliefs just because of their religion.

you seem to speak as if god is fictional with no proof that he isn't

a atheist once asked a christian "why do you believe in god? you cant see, touch or hear him so why do you think he's there?" the christian replied "can you see air? can you touch it or hear it? no but you know it's there,"

although im not a christian myself (praying for a mountain bike doesn't give you results till your 14, JOKE!) i believe in many key principles of the decalogue and the golden rule as they are used in modern day like in the welfare state and laws

i do believe in god but i think you dont have to follow christian teachings to get into heaven, just listen to your concisence and follow what it says and if you are truly sorry for any transgressions i think god will forgive you. god gave us all the fredom of choice and i think that choice is what is important.

if you or anyone else chooses to be bi or gay or whateva i think god accept that descision

i used to think when i was young (so navie) that weneva it rained god was crying because someone had sinned, to be honest i still hav that feeling, and tht fing is wht i believe


finally ranting finished case of abortion begun

as ive said its down to your own moral conscience, you do have to consider that the child is ill and may die, but can the mother live with the guilt, it can be the case that she can and she can get on with her life as she knows she is emotionally immature enough, but what if she cant? she could hav the baby or adopt it? do you get CBBC in america? cos if you do watch tracy beaker, that is about an adoption home "a dumping ground" and it shows that life isnt just as bleak as what you make out for the kids, koler

back to the ill child arguement, yes its ill and can die and it may be better for it to die without even feeling fresh air, but with so many ppl are fighters, someone who was terminally ill was diagnosed to die at the age of 15, that same person live till the age of 34 and within that life he started up a charity and raised money for it. take chris reeve as example, when he broke his back someppl thought it would be best to let him die, but no he fought and he got better somewhat before he died but he raised money to help others that is the main thing.


therefore my answer to the question
"Abortion, yes or no"

is i think that its down to the mothers and fathers moral conscience and not down to us as individuals though i myself would never want to be responsible of the death of a baby


My dad was Jewish and my mother was Mormon. I grew up with my dad and mom fighting over who I should believe in. When they got divorced in 2000, I was forced to stay with my mother, and she had by that time converted to non denominational Christianity. I was about 10 at that point, and very confused about Jesus and God and all that Jazz. I went to some from of non denominational church until about 8th grade. When I started going to many different churches. I went to the Local Jewish Temple for a while, I went to the Mormon church for a bit, The Catholic church, the Methodist, Lutheran, Trinitarian and ever were I went I saw the same thing. Everybody was fake. Everybody said it at church and did the opposite outside of church. In December of my 9th grade, I decided to take a while to study religion and find out for myself what I believed. I studied the Bible extensively, as well as the book of Mormon, and the Apocalyptic texts left out of the bible. Such as the Book of Mary and Enoch. I delved into Muslim studying the Koran and Torah even more, Buddhism and Hinduism and Eastern Philosophy came next and for about a year I searched and studied. In the summer of last year, a friend very close to me took his life. I was struck with grief, and I went to his funeral, and there people were praying very historically because they believed since he committed suicide he would go to hell. That’s were religion crossed the line. I was to believe that his nice, wonderful, kind, turn the other cheek kind of guy, was going to hell because he.....what, killed himself? That because he was confused, and lost and hurting, that he was destined to face an eternity of fire. NO, I refuse to believe that his death marked his faith. I wasn’t angry at god, realized I truthfully didn’t believe in god. Its not that I’ve turned my back on him, its that he’s not there to me. I don’t believe in him, at all. When you die, its the end of your suffering. You life comes to a halt, and you dissipate into the world. Threw my studies I because very acquainted with the religious text of the religious world. So I’m keen on how to argue against Christians, and Muslims, and anyone who is wasting there life with a fictional “god”.

I think that, no abortion should take place after the first trimester is finished. That’s stage 23 approximately 56 - 57 post ovular days. If your aborting it after that, its got a brain, a heart, eyes, taste buds, teeth, gentiles, nervous system. It has all of the 5 of the six senses after the 23 stage. So no abortion after that. I believe that right now, we have the right, and that the Christian majority will never strip us of it, like you have stripped us of so many other rights.

Government

Politics and conservatives taking things to literally
By the bible they all live They are the Christian majority

they take eye for an eye until no one can see
and then wonder blindness repeating old history

It's like a youngling on a balance beam looking for her center
slowly loosing consciousness removed from life like a splinter

the Ideas so old and so completely useless
are followed by zombies while the leader sits and muses

forcing their own ideals down indigent throats
the people they just follow like mindless sheep and goats

and those who love their residence and try to make is better
are considers horrid liberal swine and are ended with one letter

this battle over power is making me feel sickened
I wish the world would get along and this fever just end

Kolte Blount

And to answer your question: “when was the last time you went to church?”

I went to church last in September of 2005 with my dad because I didn’t have the heart to tell him no. Since he himself converted to Christianity around 2002, we went to a non denominational church down the street from the upholstery shop he was living in.

[advent_child]

why are all the posts so long?????? i dont have time to read that i mean you could answer it in one word, yes or no. I think it should be decided by the states.

[kolte]

why are all the posts so long?????? i dont have time to read that i mean you could answer it in one word, yes or no. I think it should be decided by the states.

because its the debate form, not the lazy indigent fool form

[advent_child]

excuse me how rude!! i am not lazy or indigent and i am certainly not a fool. how dare you!! that is way out of line.

[kolte]

excuse me how rude!! i am not lazy or indigent and i am certainly not a fool. how dare you!! that is way out of line.

I didnt calling you a fool, though i regreat it now! I simply answered your question with a standard "koler" answer. I like people to ad flavor to the debate, simple robotic answers don't get people involved.

[advent_child]

So you didn't "calling" me a fool though you "regreat" it now? maybey the standard "koler" answer should be more thought out and considerate. and i find examples of useless satire in some of the five hundred word responses. If you want flavor, I can give you flavor. ( if your purpose was to inflame my mind, you succeeded, for I am now a HUGE FLAMER)

[Charlotte]

simple robotic answers don't get people involved.

I completely agree, Koler 100%. it makes it boring with just yes or no

[advent_child]

http://www.abortiontruth.com/images/abortion/28.jpg
very disturbing picture of a dead baby, no bias in removing it, just don't like to look at dead babies thats all. --koler

advent_child- okay, censor me. im glad you were disturbed, every human should be. and according to the ninth circuit court of appeals and several pro choice groups that is not a human, merely a clump of cells.

There are very few circumstances in which an abortion can save a woman’s life. Often, women only choose to have abortions when they simply slip up and forget to use a condom. Look at the pictures. Honestly should this happen because two foolish people forgot to use protection. Roe V. Wade breaks a certain barrier by defining inaccurate medical standings in the statement "Viability is usually placed at about seven months (28 weeks) but may occur earlier, even at 24 weeks." A baby born at 28 weeks stands about a twenty percent chance of living. In a time before Betamethozone, a baby born at twenty weeks faces even tougher odds. According to legislation which passed the US Senate in March 2004, an unborn child is defined as "a member of the species Homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb and who is injured or killed during the commission of a federal crime of violence...”. ~Unborn Victims of Violence Act, April 2004~ (cited from Wikipedia) I believe that abortion laws should be decided by the state because the issue is so controversial. Abortion can have negative side effects on the mother, more emotionally than physically. There is no such thing as a safe abortion when something always dies: the fetus. Some mothers who have had abortions may down the line feel they harmed their child and regret it. The human mind is a sensitive thing, and is very prone to illness. Abortion is an issue that the supporters take too lightly, and I believe that more emphasis should be placed on sexual responsibility than the "safety net" that exists for the people who slip up. Rape is another issue. Would the effects of the rape combined with the possible mental trauma of an abortion be more damning than the effects of a rape coupled with a child birth and an adoption process? What about the mother bringing up the child instead of getting rid of him or her?violence..". ~Unborn Victims of Violence Act, April 2004~ (cited from wikipedia) I believe that abortion laws should be decided by the state because the issue is so contraversial. Abortion can have negative side effects on the mother, more emotionally than phsically. There is no such thing as a safe abortion when something always dies:the fetus. Some mothers who have had abortions may down the line feel they harmed thier child and regret it. The human mind is a sensative thing, and is very prone to illness. Abortion is an issue that the supporters take too lightly, and i believe that more emphasis should be placed on sexual responsibility than the "safety net" that exists for the people who slip up. Rape is another issue. Would the effects of the rape combined with the possible mental trauma of an abortion be more damning than the effects of a rape coupled with a child birth and an adoption process? What about the mother bringing up the child instead of getting rid of him or her? What about partial birth abortion; the abortion of a child past the defined stage of "viability"? Under current laws, it is illegal.

[kolte]

That is a very disturbing bottem picture, please remove it. The top picture is not true, since a nine week old fetus has no fingers or toes. Look it up. and the bottem is way to late for a legeal abortion, by that time the baby is that old, killing it is just sick. If it has a brain and a nervous system, then its too late to have an abortion. If its past the 12th week then against it. Right now its at about 20 and that means that I'm against the law right now. 4 months is all you get, thats 3 6 9 12 weeks. and after that, its murder. Thats just my thought. Oh, and remember, please remove that disturbing picture.

[Kiros]

A nine month old featus looks no different than this: http://www.abc.net.au/quantum/scripts98/9817/img/preg2.jpg

And although it may be a disturbing picture, but it's the truth. This is what abortion is... Killing a life that could have been so much.

[kolte]

sorry I ment week not month, I corrected it. And I'm sorry, but I don't NOT NOT NOT support the destruction of babies, I support the right of people to make the decision to abort a fetus that if aborted and laied on a tabe by a pig and a lizard fetus, the best scientists ever couldnt teel which was which. In other words, not a human. Something that if you passed threw your wate wouldnt be able to see or feel. The top picture shows an 11 or 12 week old fetus AT LEAST with devoloped fingers and toes to that extent. And the bottem is a full grown 8 or 9 month old human who can see feel smell taste and hear. The abortion that I support doesnt support abortion after the 12 week. I'm sorry if you cannot see that a picture of a beheaded baby is not appropriote for VirtualTeen content, then I quesiton your ability as an admin. That is just sick and evil.

[advent_child]

That is a very disturbing bottem picture, please remove it. The top picture is not true, since a nine month old fetus has no fingers or toes. Look it up. and the bottem is way to late for a legeal abortion, by that time the baby is that old, killing it is just sick. If it has a brain and a nervous system, then its too late to have an abortion. If its past the 12th week then against it. Right now its at about 20 and that means that I'm against the law right now. 4 months is all you get, thats 3 6 9 12 weeks. and after that, its murder. Thats just my thought. Oh, and remember, please remove that disturbing picture.
umm a nine month old fetus has ten fingers and ten toes. and no the bottom picture is within killing range. the law states no abortion may be performed after the twenty-second week of pregnancy. BTW the only way that law will change is if Roe V. Wade is overturned or an amendment is passed. The bottom picture is not of a partial birth-aborted fetus, the abortion was legal.
Thsi is an 18 week old fetus: http://www.wprc.org/image/photos/18weeks256x257.jpg
look at its eyes and little hands.
this is a 16 week old fetus : http://www.wprc.org/image/photos/16weeks500x379.jpg
see the fingers and toes.
this is a 20 week fetus. and again, under current law these may be aborted : http://www.wprc.org/image/photos/20weeks228x278.jpg

it makes no sense for you to talk about a nine month old fetus as having no fingers or toes. in the bottom pic, no fingers and toes are depicted, just the cranium. here is an 8 week fetus: http://www.wprc.org/image/photos/08weeks454x371.jpg
and here is a 9 week: http://www.layyous.com/ultasound/ultrasound_images/face/FREWT_29.JPG

talk to an admin, because your reason for wanting the bottom pic removed is that it is the result of an illegal abortion, and i have proven otherwise. i will remove it at the request of an admin.

ps- i did look it up: a nine month old fetus has ten fingers and ten toes.

[kolte]

ok, you win while were at it, lets burn the rights of our constitution and convert to communism so that every free aspect of our life is kept in cheak. adn I'm taking that picture out, because Its innaproprite for you to show dead nine month old babies.

[advent_child]

ok, you win while were at it, lets burn the rights of our constitution and convert to communism so that every free aspect of our life is kept in cheak. adn I'm taking that picture out, because Its innaproprite for you to show dead nine month old babies.


I HAVE PROVEN that the child is a not a nine month fetus! take it out if you must, for i find it ironic you talk about constitutional rights in the same post you say you will censor me in. Where did communism come into this argument? that was drawn out of thin air. First you insult me, then hmm... are you calling me a communist??? that baby is NOT nine months!!!

[kolte]

ok, you win while were at it, lets burn the rights of our constitution and convert to communism so that every free aspect of our life is kept in cheak. adn I'm taking that picture out, because Its innaproprite for you to show dead nine month old babies.


I HAVE PROVEN that the child is a nine week fetus! take it out if you must, for i find it ironic you talk about constitutional rights in the same post you say you will censor me in. Where did communism come into this argument? that was drawn out of thin air. First you insult me, then hmm... are you calling me a communist??? that baby is NOT nine months!!!

I'm gonna have to ask you to calm down...The skin was a peach pigment and there were obvious retnal devolpment and hair. at nine weeks, babies are translucent and have black dots as eyes and webbed fingers and toes.

[advent_child]

wait the picture you removed wasnt of a nine week baby... that text went with the above picture. im not sure how old the fetus was that you removed, but comparing it to other pictures, it is plausable that the fetus was within the legal limit. call me a communist, a fool. then tell me to calm down... wow. just wow. i am calm, if i was mad, well small bunnies would die.


EDIT: you also called me lazy and indigent

[ryan29]

koler, I would just like to say that not all Christian denominations believe that. I do not believe that your friend went to hell b/c he killed himself.

I am an Independent Baptist, and we believe that salvation is a gift given by God through Jesus. We believe that all you need do is believe on Jesus and that He is the true Son of God, and follow Him. That is all it takes to get to Heaven, later on I'll quote many verses that show this to be true. So if your friend was saved (bleieved on Jesus) then he went to heaven, regardless of how he died.

I have more things to say, but I have to go ,sorry. I will comment later when I get a chance.

Also, I would like to know what rights you say the "Christian majority" has stripped you of? I know of none, but I do know of many rights that Christians have been stripped of by the secular population. I'll take time to mention them later, I really have to go now.

[advent_child]

well where to start... several large corporations forbid their employees from saying "merry christmas." We arent allowed to pray in school, even though my particular parish does not follow that guideline, at risk from lawsuit from the American Civil Liberties Union, which sued my neighboring parish over prayer in school, and lost. there is a movement to ban manger scenes in public places at christmas time. A teacher in Pennsylvania was suspended because she wore a cross to school, a city employee was required to take down her easter bunny decorations... but this is kind of off topic from the thread ryan, but i do believe you brought up a good point: there are many denominations of christianity. The basic principal is that there is a god, and a son. that is it, if you accept the son, you will be rewarded. I know not all christians believe this, I know one person who accused me of blasphemy becasue I made fun of Christian music. I love most of it, especially the peices chosen for worship but thank God I dont have to accept all forms of worship. Imagine a clean version of MY HUMP with think christian undertones...

"My god, my god my god my god, my lovely heavenly mod!...what cha gonna do with all that scripture, all that scripture inside the good book?.... ima ima ima gonna save your soul save your soul with all this holy gold...en...scripture."

doesnt sound that good...of course i just made that up...not many christ associated words rhyme well with eachother.

[Charlotte]

"My god, my god my god my god, my lovely heavenly mod!...what cha gonna do with all that scripture, all that scripture inside the good book?.... ima ima ima gonna save your soul save your soul with all this holy gold...en...scripture.".

I think My Humps is a very bad comparison lol.

not many christ associated words rhyme well with eachother.

um there are plently of hymms that rhyme. ever listen to lyrics of songs at church?

[advent_child]

yes i have, i just ment that atrocity as a joke to show that just because a song is christian dosent mean its a good one. its hard to take a song about a womans anus and turn it into...that.

[kolte]

Please stay on the topic of abortion.

[advent_child]

If i was an admin this would be locked...

[kolte]

If i was an admin this would be locked...

Well lucky for us, you are not an admin. And if you cannot stay on the topic of abortion. I will have to report you, consider this an onnofical warning.

I understand the butality of abortion. I understand that it is seen as evil and unjust to a large majority of the population. I think the law should cut the time in half, to a maximum of 12 weeks. This would, I think, keep the protests at bay, but still allow women the right of free choice. I am sorry if I offended anyone in this or any other debate. I'm working on my temper now.

I believe in the American family. I believe that every child deserves a loving home with parents who can afford to raise and care for them. Every woman has the right to have a child when she is ready, and I believe her government has no right to force a child upon her when she is not. Nobody wins when our youth are condemned to a life of poverty on a welfare system that cannot support them. America needs more families, not single mothers.

[Kiros]

why are all the posts so long?????? i dont have time to read that i mean you could answer it in one word, yes or no. I think it should be decided by the states.

because its the debate form, not the lazy indigent fool form

Whether this was direct at you, advent_child, or not, let it go. This debate will continue and the fighting shall stop.

[BeautyFromPain]

question..can you abort a baby youve carried for 22weeks?

[kolte]

They typically do not permit abortions after 20 or 21 week gestation unless the woman's health or life are seriously at risk

[Aηdy]

i agree with you there koler.. because i mean its like killing a person

[kolte]

you know, i just reolized, this is the largest debate vt has ever had, huzzah for this debate this goes in the new debate hall of fame I'm gonna make, to honer debates that surpass 100 replies and those that surpass 50 replys. Huzzah guys, were really using our minds here!

[R&b_Boy]

hell no. i wouldn't do it

[SkaSkankDownParty]

This might sound a little harsh but I think we kind of need abortion. If we didn't have it then our population would grow even faster than in already is. If our population grows faster then we may not be able to support everyone. We will have more poverty than we have now. You really need to think about someone other than yourself before you have a kid. Pregnancies can affect more than just you.

[Phantom]

I think abortion is acceptable in the first or second trimester, if the mother decides she wants one. Also if the pregnacy endangers the womans (girl in some cases) life, or in cases of rape. I do not aggre with abortion being used as birth control

[Makod]

It's the woman's choice, abortion is fine.

[cmpcmp]

This might sound a little harsh but I think we kind of need abortion. If we didn't have it then our population would grow even faster than in already is. If our population grows faster then we may not be able to support everyone. We will have more poverty than we have now. You really need to think about someone other than yourself before you have a kid. Pregnancies can affect more than just you.

lol lol lol lol,

the CIA fact book

Total fertility rate (USA): 2.09 children born/woman (2006 est.)
SO the .045 extra children per person need to be purged? (woman are only half the popultaion so 2.09/2= 1.045 1.045-1=.045 .045)

wow, and its falling.....
http://www.umsl.edu/services/govdocs/erp/1997/chart3-1.gif
the "bump" is the baby boom after WWII.
http://www.mof.go.jp/english/budget/brief/2003/images/p053a.jpg

note the 2 graph use a differnent measurement for the y-axis

[Cloe]

I think it depends on the circumstances. I'm 14 and if I got pregnant I would probably have an abortion or adoption because I have m,y life aheaD OF ME BUT iF U KILL a child because u don't want it thats the same as having it and killing it and I completly think that is wrong so this,in my opinion, is circumstancial.

[Marcie]

Nope, I believe it's wrong.

[deadpie]

Yes. Fetus tastes good in my mouth.

[BeautifulDisaster]

Yes.

Every woman has this choice, that shouldn't be taken away from them just because of those who disagree with it, in many cases, this is the action that needs to & should be be taken.

I especially agree with it if someone has been raped & they became pregnant from it, it's unfair to not let someone who didn't choose to become pregnant & it was forced upon them abort the pregnancy.

[Gumleaf]

I think it depends on the circumstances. I'm 14 and if I got pregnant I would probably have an abortion or adoption because I have m,y life aheaD OF ME BUT iF U KILL a child because u don't want it thats the same as having it and killing it and I completly think that is wrong so this,in my opinion, is circumstancial.

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