Bullying.

[The Batman]

Do you think that bullying helps society, or does it destroy lives? What's your opinion on bullying?

[left footed mofo]

Bullying has been around for a long time, possibly since the beginnings of humanity. Bullying is simply the act of repeatedly and purposefully hurting or insulting another, it’s been blown out of proportion lately, mainly by a few extreme incidents involving someone dying, if you look at the amount of Bullying that goes on, these deaths are extremely rare.

Bullying can also make an individual stronger, after all, what doesn’t kill you can only make you stronger. Such examples are teaching the ‘victim’ their own personal limits, also if someone gets teased about a bad habit such as nose picking, in an attempt to stop the Bullying they might stop. I’m not saying that being Bullied is a pleasant experience but it can help some people.

Also you can’t ‘beat Bullying’. Bullying is not an animal that can be hunted into extinction, a gene that can be eliminated by generations of selective breeding, or some virus that can be isolated and destroyed, it is something some people do, even if you try to beat it, Bullies will adapt, find new ways to Bully, it can be minimised or ignored, not beaten.

Anti-bullying can also be construed as prejudice seeing as you have no more right to discriminate against a Bully as you do someone who is black, homosexual or handicapped, don’t say it’s different, because it’s not, yet it’s more like discriminating against someone who has an office job, or got poor GCSE grades.

Verbal and psychological Bullying take a certain amount of intelligence and charisma to be able to do it effectively, this is a fact that many people will overlook. Also they say that Bullies suffer from low self-esteem, this can’t be true, as low self esteem would make Bullying difficult.

Another issue of perspective is that people think that bullying is getting worse, in fact levels of bullying are fairly stable, just more people are reporting it. On the same note, the word ‘Bully’ is often used to describe non-Bullies such as rapists, this leads to the word ‘Bully’ being associated with much worse actions then occur in most, if not all actual Bullying cases.

In closing, is this whole “beat Bullying” thing not just another way of Bullying the Bully? It has been proven that Bullying the Bully tactics do not work and often make the Bullying worse, for the Bully and the ‘victim’.
So let’s work together to stop the “beat Bullying” movement, for an end to prejudice!

[theOperaGhost]

Do you think that bullying helps society, or does it destroy lives? What's your opinion on bullying?

Simply both...

I think it can destroy lives, but I also think it can make people stronger. I feel that bullying wouldn't be such an issue if people had better self esteem and confidence in themselves.

My feelings are that people need to lighten up. I was technically bullied but it never bothered me.

I don't condone bullying though. Overall, I think bullying can have both positive and negative effects on society, just like everything else. To a point, it can make some people more confident and stronger over time. To another point, it can bring down confidence. It's really a wishy washy thing...it depends on the person being bullied.

[Sapphire]

Bullying causes people to lose self esteem and confidence in themselves. It can lead to problems like depression and self harm. It can leave the victim with physical injuries which require medical attention.
None of these benefit the individual or society.

To imply that if the individual were stronger, had a thicker skin or didn't pay any attention to the bullies then they wouldn't be bullied or negatively affected by it is a round-about way of blaming the victim for the situation. It isn't their fault that someone has chosen to systematically bully them. The bully is the one at fault, not the victim.

[nick]

I agree 100% with what Sapphire has said above. I'd go even further and say it can lead to suicide.

I can see no positive side to bullying whatsoever.

[Reality]

Do you think that bullying helps society, or does it destroy lives? What's your opinion on bullying?

I personally believe it destroys lives, a lot more than it benefits society. Of course it depends on the situation and the place.

But the most common kind of bullying, is bullying that occurs at school. In 8/10 cases the person being bullied is because she/he is different moreso than weak (contrary to popular belief). In the not-so-distant past, people got bullied for being a different race or religion, and it still happens today at some schools. How in hell is someones race or religious beliefs a weakness?

Of course people get bullied for being "nerdy", "ugly", fat, homosexual, bisexual skinny or short which are more controllable differences, but are moreso called weaknesses. People also get bullied for being Goths and Emos, too - but these are still just differences.

Different people get bullied because they are not blending in with the "majority". The majority will always misunderstand or hate the "outsider".

In my personal opinion, bullying is a horrible and very cowardly, unneccesary thing. Bullying causes people to become depressed, anxious, self-harm, develope eating disorders and drop in school performance - either because they start skipping school, or losing concentration on their work. How the fuck does this kind of thing benefit society? To succeed in life, and of course society, one must be educated to contribute, so it's actually the very opposite in a way.

Extreme cases of bullying include suicide and massacres - such as the Columbine Massacre and Virginia Tech which happened in the USA, and I'm sure there's been a few others. I know these are "rare", but FFS, I wish people would stop using the fact they rarely happen to justify bullying - the fact is; if the they were never bullied, the massacres wouldn't happen in the first place. No, I'm not saying the people who commited these mass murders were right in doing so, or anything, and bless the people that died in them. But still....

Some people may survive bullying as more strong, and capable people. But this is rare, and they still did not deserve to get the shit they went through, regardless. And I do not count the people who changed, assimilated or became bullies themselves as the people who are "strong". Rather.. they broke out the wrong way.

In other institions, however, a kind of bullying is actually acceptable. For example if you join the Army or Marines, you voluntary sign up (meaning you know what you're up against, and willing), and it is the Drill Sergeant/Drill Instructor's job to kick out all your sloppiness and bad habits, and make you into a soldier. Not only this, but the DS/DI does not discriminate on a personal basis (except to experiment), but rather your performance. Some people may see this as bullying or cruel, but I agree it's neccesary for a military to function properly. However, the "blanket parties" (like the one in the movie Full Metal Jacket), I believe are down-right cowardly, and have a bad effect, as people in the military are trained to work as a team. You don't beat the fuck out of someone in your team, do you? It's a sign of severe mistrust, and of course it causes the victim to mistrust and hate you.

So to conclude, or at least my tl;dr version is:

I mostly disagree with and hate bullying. Has very few benefits, and is a very bad problem, and no it doesn't contribute to society at all, except in the military - which has it's own reasons for being the way it is.

[INFERNO]

It does both. It helps people grow skin, become more tolerant, etc... . This isn't meant to blame anyone. It can be harmful for reasons pointed out.

[Stevo 69]

I think it does both, but mainly destorys people's lives.

I've been bullied myself and I did not want to take my life, but many people do as a result, it's a crazy thing to do but people are bullied so much they can't take any more and feel it would be better if they were simply dead. Some people find comfort in food, this can cause obesity which is another way to destroy people's lives.

When I was bullied I turned to food, but managed to stay strong and now and back to the way I was. And I am very glad as I hated it back then.

So in my opinion bullying destroys lives alot more than it does help people.

[Skeln]

Yeah, bullying does both, but mostly it destroys lives, for both the bully and the victim. The victim gets picked on, and therefor gets a lower self-esteem because they feel weak, insignificant, and disliked by many. However, some people who bully do it becausr they have their own problems, or it causes problems.

When people bully, it could be caused by some sort of problem in their life (say the bully's father beats him or his mother, and he needs to relieve some stress) and all it does it get them in trouble and disliked by mkany.

People also bully foranother reason, and this form of bullying has been going for a very long time and is found in almost all animals, domination. When some people bully, it's to make themselves feel tough, strong, and feared by others. Noone messes with a tough bully, thus the bully feels better about that.

Also, for some bullies, they are respected by soem because they are strong. It's mainly a social domination thing and also it attracts others. For instance, a girl might like a guy because he's tough and so the guy bullies to make himself look tougher.

[lamboman43]

There are absolutely no pros to being bullied. I find no way it can help a victim. It ruins my life and alot more peoples too.

[INFERNO]

There are absolutely no pros to being bullied. I find no way it can help a victim. It ruins my life and alot more peoples too.

Are you saying there are no advantages because you and people who you know got no advantages? That's a horrendously small sample of the population to use in order to make generalisations.

[lamboman43]

Seriously though, I dont get how being put down to the point of suicide is beneficial. Do you think bullying is good?

[INFERNO]

Seriously though, I dont get how being put down to the point of suicide is beneficial. Do you think bullying is good?

Then you need to re-read the thread. You outlined a disadvantage, however, an advantage would be becoming tolerant of insults, abuse, etc... or growing skin to it.

It's both good and bad. Saying it's only good or only bad makes you ignorant of not considering both sides.

[lamboman43]

Are you a bully? You seem to positive about bullying. Victims dont get tolerent of insults. These insults just put them down more. People shouldn't be tolerent of being put down. These bullies are slimy disgusting pitiful entities of shit. You shouldn't give them the power of tolerence. You NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER should be tolerent of abuse. It invites the bully to harm you. I hope you never have to get bullied or be a bully. You being so positive about bullying makes me sick. Now give this speach to Sapphire and Full Swell. Dont just get all on me.

[INFERNO]

Are you a bully? You seem to positive about bullying. Victims dont get tolerent of insults. These insults just put them down more. People shouldn't be tolerent of being put down. These bullies are slimy disgusting pitiful entities of shit. You shouldn't give them the power of tolerence. You NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER should be tolerent of abuse. It invites the bully to harm you. I hope you never have to get bullied or be a bully. You being so positive about bullying makes me sick. Now give this speach to Sapphire and Full Swell. Dont just get all on me.

:confused: You're acting as though I said something horribly offensive, which I did not.

What I am does not matter. Debate the debate not the debater. I'm a human and that's all that needs to be known for the purpose of this debate.

Prove that they don't get tolerant of insults. Yes they should be tolerant of being put down. The world isn't smiles and bunnies, it's horrid in many places by many people, so people should get used to them and grow some skin so they don't get offended over petty name-calling and insults.

It's childish to do the name-calling and insults, however, it's even more childish to respond using them. It's more mature to be tolerant and ignore the person in their retardation of spewing petty insults.

And how am I acting so positive? I've said bullying has good and bad consequences, yet you are ignoring the fact I've acknowledged the bad ones and are assuming I'm only viewing the positives. I'm debating this objectively and looking at both the advantages and disadvantages. If you wish to look at only advantages or only disadvantages, then that's fine, however, there are some things not to do in an objective debate: (1) be emotional, (2) tell a debater what they should and should not do and (3) question whether they are a certain thing or not (i.e. bully or not).

[theOperaGhost]

:confused: You're acting as though I said something horribly offensive, which I did not.

What I am does not matter. Debate the debate not the debater. I'm a human and that's all that needs to be known for the purpose of this debate.

Prove that they don't get tolerant of insults. Yes they should be tolerant of being put down. The world isn't smiles and bunnies, it's horrid in many places by many people, so people should get used to them and grow some skin so they don't get offended over petty name-calling and insults.

It's childish to do the name-calling and insults, however, it's even more childish to respond using them. It's more mature to be tolerant and ignore the person in their retardation of spewing petty insults.

And how am I acting so positive? I've said bullying has good and bad consequences, yet you are ignoring the fact I've acknowledged the bad ones and are assuming I'm only viewing the positives. I'm debating this objectively and looking at both the advantages and disadvantages. If you wish to look at only advantages or only disadvantages, then that's fine, however, there are some things not to do in an objective debate: (1) be emotional, (2) tell a debater what they should and should not do and (3) question whether they are a certain thing or not (i.e. bully or not).

Agreed. Couldn't have said it any better myself.

[Sapphire]

I hear what you are all saying, but I'm not sure how people who have been bullied become more tolerant of bullying behaviours.
Tbh I would go the other way and say that being bullied results in more bad feeling towards bullies in general, a greater ability to empathise with and a greater desire to help those who are subjected to mistreatment.

[lamboman43]

:confused: You're acting as though I said something horribly offensive, which I did not.

What I am does not matter. Debate the debate not the debater. I'm a human and that's all that needs to be known for the purpose of this debate.

Prove that they don't get tolerant of insults. Yes they should be tolerant of being put down. The world isn't smiles and bunnies, it's horrid in many places by many people, so people should get used to them and grow some skin so they don't get offended over petty name-calling and insults.

It's childish to do the name-calling and insults, however, it's even more childish to respond using them. It's more mature to be tolerant and ignore the person in their retardation of spewing petty insults.

And how am I acting so positive? I've said bullying has good and bad consequences, yet you are ignoring the fact I've acknowledged the bad ones and are assuming I'm only viewing the positives. I'm debating this objectively and looking at both the advantages and disadvantages. If you wish to look at only advantages or only disadvantages, then that's fine, however, there are some things not to do in an objective debate: (1) be emotional, (2) tell a debater what they should and should not do and (3) question whether they are a certain thing or not (i.e. bully or not).

Well I dont know how they deal with bullies in Canada, but where I live counslers tell us we should never accept being called horrible names at school or anywhere else. Tell me how easy it is to ignore someone when they are constantly harrassing you. There is a reason abuse and sexual harrassment is illegal. Because we should not accept being beat up or put down. And why aren't you preaching this to the Psychiatric Ward part of this website. Lots of people are abused and bullied and they complain about it there. Do they need to "grow some skin" and get over it?

[Skeln]

Well I dont know how they deal with bullies in Canada, but where I live counslers tell us we should never accept being called horrible names at school or anywhere else. Tell me how easy it is to ignore someone when they are constantly harrassing you. There is a reason abuse and sexual harrassment is illegal. Because we should not accept being beat up or put down. And why aren't you preaching this to the Psychiatric Ward part of this website. Lots of people are abused and bullied and they complain about it there. Do they need to "grow some skin" and get over it?
Ok, I used to be bullied for everal reasons. First, I'm small and insignificant. Second, I used to act like a winey little brat when I was bullied. Now I ignore pathetic insults and now I don't get them anymore. You know why?

When some people bully, it's also to get a reaction out of the victim. They enjoy seeing you wine, complain, and beg them to stop. Here's my proof.

I used to be pathetic whenever someoe took something of mine. Then I had this idea. One day, someone stole my book which was a necessity for my class and they wanted to play a cruel game of Monkey in the Middle. Well, I just ignored them. I kept an eye on my book, and as long as it was in my sight I didn't dp anything. They waved it in front of my face, yet I did nothing. They eventually gave it back after a minute of trying to get my attention and appologized. Ever since then, that's all I do when something is stolen of mine and they always give it back. Now they no longer even try.

Also, everyone gets insulted and teased. If you're going to act like a winey brat and cry at every insult, then people will make fun of you more. They bully and tease to get a reaction! If you ignore insults, they get no pleasure from it and they leave you alone. Now I live my life happily when I'm at school.

I was even teased by my grandfather, all of my cousins and my aunts and my mother were. He could sometimes be mean. But it was only to toughen us up and make it so we wouldn't get bullied. I'll tell you now, it sure as hell worked, and it worked quickly.

Even my friend who used to live next door to my grandfather came home crying one day because people called him fat. His mother was about to go to the school and complain, but my grandfather stopped her and told her that he needs to gte used to it and be able to take insults like a man, not like a child. After awhile, he learned and for those who still called him fat to get a reaction, he ignored them and he wasn't bullied after that.

Also, you're not looking at the fact that bullying can help with growing up and learning to be a decent adult. If you get put down all of the time, then you're not going to make it in this world. Now-a-days, if you cant take insults without crying or without getting pissed, then you wont have a decent job for long. My grandfather has a friend who worked for this really important air-plane building factory. One day his boss was pissed because this certain project wasn't completed and cussed him out. He treated him like a little stupid brat. But he had the balls to stand there, take all of those insults without flinching, appologize and say that he would get it done. When he did get it done the next week, he got a promotion. Would that promotion have happened if he cried or if he hit his boss?

Look at both sides of this dabate please. That's what makes debating fun.

"End rant" I feel alot better now.

[lamboman43]

BUt ignoring the bully does not always work. I've seen it happen to people. They ignore and ignore and still get teased. I think with your grandpa teasing you and being mean is not right. You family should always be nice to you, no matter what.

If you get put down all of the time, then you're not going to make it in this world. Well we will always be put down. There will be new people that put you down always. And you cant just look at the verbal aspect of getting bullied. If some one is beating you up, are you supposed to ignore it? Are you supposed to be their silent punching bag of flesh?

[Sage]

Do they need to "grow some skin" and get over it?

Should it add anything to the debate, I was bullied a lot from first to sixth grade, a bit less in seventh and eighth. It was my problem and no one other than me could do anything about it. So eventually, yes, I have "grown skin" and ignore people quite easily now.

In society, snuggling the weaker willed folks only gets you so far and in many cases is only a temporary solution. Teaching people to fend for themselves (Mentally, not physically.) does everyone good.

[lamboman43]

Yes, but as I said, what about the physical aspect of bullying? Do you need to let them beat you up and ignore it?

[katytruthteller]

all through school ive been bullied and i also have been a kind of little bully but i think its really nasty to bully but i know that most of them do it to shield their own problems but some do it for fun and those people should be taught a lesson i rekon but hey thats just my view

[Skeln]

Well we will always be put down. There will be new people that put you down always. And you cant just look at the verbal aspect of getting bullied. If some one is beating you up, are you supposed to ignore it? Are you supposed to be their silent punching bag of flesh?
That type of bullying is a different matter. On a verbal aspect then you ignore it. But on a physical one, that's when you need to take action. I agree with you that being beaten up is not right and that you must defend yourself.

BUt ignoring the bully does not always work. I've seen it happen to people. They ignore and ignore and still get teased
If you ignore it then it doesn't matter if you get teased. Simple as that. Let the bullies waste their time. If it's verbal teasing then there's no legitimate reason to fight back. Don't bother with it. As long as you ignore it, it's just a waste of their time and therefor you get the last laugh.

I think with your grandpa teasing you and being mean is not right. You family should always be nice to you, no matter what.
My family is nice to me. but teasing can be fun if you give it a try. My grandfather does it all the time when he's not doing serious work. It's fun, funny, and it just brings my family loser. At first the teasing sounds mean and one time he even made my cousin cry, but now that we're used to it it's become a daily part of our lives. We all pull ricks on eachother at almost any time when it's not a serious situation. It's the way my family is, and it's the way I want it to stay. When nobody teases me then there's little fun. It's the same type of teasing that I get from my friends, which is also a reason my grandfather teases. We're going to be teased by friends at some point in our live, so he wants it so that if we are teased we wont take it seriously and ruin the relationship. I suggest you give teasing a try. Now I admit, there's a limit to the amount of teasing you can do before it crosses the line, but after awhile that line becomes more difficult to cross because people get used to it.

[Triceratops]

I struggle to see how any part of bullying is positive.

Yes, it might help someone to become stronger and "think-skinned" but the dreadful memories of the bullying will still be there and can be hard to shake off.

Bullying damages one's confidence, self-esteem and general happiness. It is something that should not occur and should not be tolerated, at all.

People should treat others how they would like to be treated.

[katytruthteller]

Bullying damages one's confidence, self-esteem and general happiness. It is something that should not occur and should not be tolerated, at all.

People should treat others how they would like to be treated.

Here Here to that!

[Sapphire]

Skeln, there is a huge difference between being bullied and being teased. If someone bulliles you then they mean to hurt you in some way whereas teasing is normally meant in a lighthearted way. Teasing can be implemented by bullies but that does not make them the same.

BUt ignoring the bully does not always work. I've seen it happen to people.
[...]
Well we will always be put down. There will be new people that put you down always.
QFT.

If you ignore it then it doesn't matter if you get teased. Simple as that. Let the bullies waste their time. If it's verbal teasing then there's no legitimate reason to fight back. Don't bother with it. As long as you ignore it, it's just a waste of their time and therefor you get the last laugh.As has already been said, ignoring them doesn't always work. Not reacting to them does not make their words any less harsh. Ignoring them doesn't solve the core issue that no human has the right to systematically victimise another.

I was bullied for about 8 years throughout my school life. I didn't react. Not once did I cry. Not once did I moan. Not once did I whine. They still persisted.

I struggle to see how any part of bullying is positive.

Yes, it might help someone to become stronger and "think-skinned" but the dreadful memories of the bullying will still be there and can be hard to shake off.

Bullying damages one's confidence, self-esteem and general happiness. It is something that should not occur and should not be tolerated, at all.

People should treat others how they would like to be treated.
I second that!

[Skeln]

Ok, I'll admit that there's a difference between being bullied and being teased. But their are different types of forms for boeing bullied. There are verbal cases, in which when I mean ignore it, don't think any of it. Mind your own business, that's what I do. I still get verbal remarks, which is bullying, but I imagine they never said anyhting. it doesn't bother me one bit. It's not like I take it and don't do anyhting about it, in my mind it was never said and that's how I deal with varbal bullying. Because of this, the memories of bullying for me are all gone, in my mind, nothing happened. I can't deny that I was bullied, but I have no memories of it. Just the fact that I was bulied and I coped with it in a way that no matter what, verbal bullying didn't affect me in the least.

As for physical bullying, that's a different matter as I've already stated. If it's physical, then you need to defend yourself. Physical bullying does stay with you, and that's when you need to take action. Honesty, I've never gone through physical bullying so I can't say much about it except that you need to defend yourself. At my school, the rule to not get in trouble though is that if your being beated, get in the fetal position. I find that the most stupidest idea ever. Sure it wont get you in trouble with the school or the on-campus police, but it's completely wrong. My school doesn't have many good ideas with dealing with physical bullying, and my grandfather who always abide by the rules even agrees with me and said that if I ever fought back and I got in trouble with the school, he wouldn't care because it's the exact same thing he's done. So yeah, if it's physical then I say you fight back.

Also, I do agree that bullying should never happen because, as I stated in my first post on this thread, bullying does more harm than help. I was only saying that I think bullying does have a good side in my latest posts, but yeah I'm more against bullying. The problem is, bullying will never stop. It's always going to happen, as it has been happening for such a longtime with many different species. It's survival of the fittest for animals, and although we're no longer living by the way of animals, there's still that gene in peoples brains saying "survival of the fittest".

Don't get me wrong, I don't like bulying, and I only brought up teasing because some bullying is teasing...just not the friendly teasing. And I only stated that bullying can be good in some cases because it truely can in my eyes. It made me stronger mentally. I wish I could say physically, but yeah I've never been physically bullied and I've never gotten into a fight because I ignore hurtful remarks to the point where they were never stated in the first place. That's how bullying has made me stronger, it's allowed me to focus more on my objective and to tone out distractions. It's helped me become more intelligent because now in school I'm less distracted and I focus on my work. So verbal bullying has helped me, but I was lucky because for most people bullying does do harm.

[Sapphire]

Ok, I'll admit that there's a difference between being bullied and being teased. But their are different types of forms for boeing bullied. There are verbal cases, in which when I mean ignore it, don't think any of it. Mind your own business, that's what I do. I still get verbal remarks, which is bullying, but I imagine they never said anyhting. it doesn't bother me one bit. It's not like I take it and don't do anyhting about it, in my mind it was never said and that's how I deal with varbal bullying. Because of this, the memories of bullying for me are all gone, in my mind, nothing happened. I can't deny that I was bullied, but I have no memories of it. Just the fact that I was bulied and I coped with it in a way that no matter what, verbal bullying didn't affect me in the least. That is all very well and good for you, but it doesn't work that way for the majority. The majority of people who ignore the bullies cannot kid themselves that it isn't actually happening.

Why is it that you make a differentiation between the course of action to be taken when someone is verbally bullied and when someone is physically bullied?
They both result in the victim feeling the same (e.g. poor self confidence etc). The only difference is how they go about it and whether the hurt caused is visible.

[INFERNO]

And why aren't you preaching this to the Psychiatric Ward part of this website. Lots of people are abused and bullied and they complain about it there. Do they need to "grow some skin" and get over it?

Once again, focus on this debate, not whether I should post it elsewhere in the VT website.

BUt ignoring the bully does not always work. I've seen it happen to people. They ignore and ignore and still get teased. I think with your grandpa teasing you and being mean is not right. You family should always be nice to you, no matter what.

Your family should but that is not always the case. Unconditional love is something I do not support. You earn respect, you earn love. Parents should have some amount of unconditional love in recognizing you as one of their own, however, any more love and respect should be earned.

Well we will always be put down. There will be new people that put you down always. And you cant just look at the verbal aspect of getting bullied. If some one is beating you up, are you supposed to ignore it? Are you supposed to be their silent punching bag of flesh?

Yes, but as I said, what about the physical aspect of bullying? Do you need to let them beat you up and ignore it?

Physical bullying should be dealt with differently than verbal bullying. If it's physical bullying, then you don't stand there and take it. You have a right to defend yourself and then contact the proper authorities, both in school, parents and perhaps police. This also applies to sexual assault and harrassment.

[Skeln]

Quote:
Originally Posted by lamboman43
Yes, but as I said, what about the physical aspect of bullying? Do you need to let them beat you up and ignore it?

Physical bullying should be dealt with differently than verbal bullying. If it's physical bullying, then you don't stand there and take it. You have a right to defend yourself and then contact the proper authorities, both in school, parents and perhaps police. This also applies to sexual assault and harrassment.
That is what I'm saying. With verbal bullying you aren't legally within your right to defend yourself, so I just cope with people giving me put-downs. But if I were physically bullied then I would fight back and show them that just because they think they can beat me up doesn't make me their mindless bitch (sorry for those who are offendied by the word bitch) who they can beat whenever they want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lamboman43
BUt ignoring the bully does not always work. I've seen it happen to people. They ignore and ignore and still get teased. I think with your grandpa teasing you and being mean is not right. You family should always be nice to you, no matter what.

Your family should but that is not always the case. Unconditional love is something I do not support. You earn respect, you earn love. Parents should have some amount of unconditional love in recognizing you as one of their own, however, any more love and respect should be earned.

Now when my grandfather teases, he doesn't go all out on us and make us feel like crap. he just slowly makes us immune to teasing. It's how I learned to just forget that bullies are ever saying anything cruel to me. It may seem mean at first, but he's really doing it for our benefit, both at school and at home.

If he were to hear of me starting a fight just because someone said I was as fat as a cow then he would punish me severely. Hell, if it were like the old times, then he would possibly beat me. (That may sound cruel, but in the old days parents were allowed to use switches on their kids if they misbehaved, it's how my grandfather grew up and iut made him into an honest, intelligent, hard-working man).

My grandfather may sound cruel, but he's my hero and I look up to him and I always will because he knows how to raise his kids, grandkids, how to help others, and to be honest no matter what. All of his kids went to top universities, one of my aunts even went to Harvord and one of her daughters got a complete scholarship for a top university.

[lamboman43]

Physical bullying should be dealt with differently than verbal bullying. If it's physical bullying, then you don't stand there and take it. You have a right to defend yourself and then contact the proper authorities, both in school, parents and perhaps police. This also applies to sexual assault and harassment.

Thats the fucked up thing at my school. We cant defend ourselves. If we retaliate we get the same punishment as the aggressor.

[Skeln]

That's the same thing with my school. The rules clearly state that "If you're being beaten, then get into the fetal position and you wont be in trouble. If you throw a punch, even if it's not the first, then you suffer the same punishment". My grandfather disagrees with that, and he told me that that's stupid, and dangerous. If you do that then people withh think you're a wimp and pick on you more. I say screw that rule and defend yourself if you're hit. It's self-defence and the school can't change that. there's not much they can do to stop you, they just want less records of fist-fights.

[lamboman43]

Ya my parents couldn't care less if I defended myself. They would be proud of me.

[Skeln]

Now we're agreeing on something.

[Sapphire]

That is what I'm saying. With verbal bullying you aren't legally within your right to defend yourself, so I just cope with people giving me put-downs. But if I were physically bullied then I would fight back and show them that just because they think they can beat me up doesn't make me their mindless bitch (sorry for those who are offendied by the word bitch) who they can beat whenever they want.
I really don't understand what you are saying here.

Legally, if you are physically assaulted and retaliate with physical violence then you are liable to be prosecuted. You broke a law by causing physical harm to another and the fact that it was in self defence doesn't absolve you of that.
If you are verbally attacked then there is nothing making it illegal for you to give as good as you get.

And maybe you could address this from my last post.
Why is it that you make a differentiation between the course of action to be taken when someone is verbally bullied and when someone is physically bullied?
They both result in the victim feeling the same (e.g. poor self confidence etc). The only difference is how they go about it and whether the hurt caused is visible.

[lamboman43]

Legally, if you are physically assaulted and retaliate with physical violence then you are liable to be prosecuted. You broke a law by causing physical harm to another and the fact that it was in self defence doesn't absolve you of that.

Well then the system of law is fucked up.

[Sapphire]

Well then the system of law is fucked up.
No, it reflects the truth that two wrongs do not make a right.

[lamboman43]

Well do you expect us who get beat up just to sit there and take it. Because if so police shouldn't have any weapons that could harm someone even if someone is shooting at them. The military should be disbanded. Then women cant defend them selves if they are getting raped or their purse is getting stolen. We could just forget prisons since police wont be allowed to hurt a criminal in any way to catch them. Really if there was a law against defending yourselves, crime would sky rocket and the police wouldn't exist. The secret service that DEFENDS The President wouldn't be allowed to protect him. Companies that produce mace and develop tazers would be out of business. So this kind of proves we are allowed to defend our selves.

[Sapphire]

Not retaliating and getting the police involved is better than using physical violence to defend yourself.

Obviously if it were a matter of life and death (which is extremely rare in bullying cases) then it is more acceptable to use violence in the interest of defending yourself.

Committing a crime is wrong which is why criminals get arrested. If you cause injury to someone else, regardless of what happened prior to you hitting them, you are breaking a law.

[lamboman43]

Not retaliating and getting the police involved is better than using physical violence to defend yourself.

Obviously if it were a matter of life and death (which is extremely rare in bullying cases) then it is more acceptable to use violence in the interest of defending yourself.

Committing a crime is wrong which is why criminals get arrested. If you cause injury to someone else, regardless of what happened prior to you hitting them, you are breaking a law.

No you said you are that causing harm to someone is illegal. Saying that police, military, secret service, and any other factions that are there to defend you are not allowed. According to you even if you defend your self in a life death situation you can still be arrested.




Let me give you a situation. Bob was going to a bakery in NYC. He went into an alley way and was confronted by thugs. They backed him into a corner. They were going to slash him with there knives. All Bob had to defend himself with was Mace. He had no cell phone to call the police. Even if he did they would not come in time. According to Sapphire, poor Bob is just going to die. He isn't allowed to defend himself. Once the president realises no one is allowed to defend themselves, he disbands all companies that defend human beings what so ever. This turns the US into an anarchy country. There is nothing stopping these thugs. All because Bob wasn't allowed to use mace.

[Sapphire]

No, I've been specifically talking about people who are being bullied as that is what this thread is about. This isn't about the police or armed forces. We are talking about regular people being systematically victimised by other regular people.

[lamboman43]

No, I've been specifically talking about people who are being bullied as that is what this thread is about. This isn't about the police or armed forces. We are talking about regular people being systematically victimised by other regular people.

Would you care to now address my points in context of this discussion?

Dont you get it? The police are supposed to DEFEND us when we are bullied. You say nothing can defend us.

[Sapphire]

Dont you get it? The police are supposed to DEFEND us when we are bullied. You say nothing can defend us.
That is not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the victims of bullying should not resort to physical assault in retaliation. They should get the authorities involved instead.

[lamboman43]

That is not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the victims of bullying should not resort to physical assault in retaliation. They should get the authorities involved instead.

But what if they are backed into a corner and cant get the authorities? According to you they should just be beat to a pulp.

[Sapphire]

But what if they are backed into a corner and cant get the authorities? According to you they should just be beat to a pulp.
It is all relative.
If they honestly feel that their life is at risk then the use of violence in self defense is acceptable. However, in bullying cases this is very rare.
It is more common for a bullying victim to sustain non-life threatening injuries. In these cases, contact the police and document incidences with photos and a diary.

Only through getting the authorities involved will the bully actually be punished. If we don't use the justice system to serve out punishments to those who deserve them then what is the point in them existing? I say let the police protect you from the bullies and let the courts punish them - that is what they are there to do.

[lamboman43]

But lets say the situation is not life threatening. Then Do you expect this person to stand there and get beat up? If you do then think again, because they wont.

[Sapphire]

But lets say the situation is not life threatening. Then Do you expect this person to stand there and get beat up? If you do then think again, because they wont.
I know that a lot wouldn't.
But there are those who would just so the police and courts could deal with it properly. I've witnessed it myself and I have more admiration for that person than all the others I know who beat the guys up.

[lamboman43]

I know that a lot wouldn't.
But there are those who would just so the police and courts could deal with it properly. I've witnessed it myself and I have more admiration for that person than all the others I know who beat the guys up.

Well tose people who do just sit there and take it are not very smart. And you aren't very nice for not helping them. How could you just stand there and watch someone get hurt. That is sickening.

[Sapphire]

Well tose people who do just sit there and take it are not very smart. And you aren't very nice for not helping them. How could you just stand there and watch someone get hurt. That is sickening.
Ok, I worded that badly. I wasn't there when the attack was taking place, but I was close with them both and was there to witness everything else. They were smart actually. After the police got involved one of the assailants landed in juvie and the other three had a years conditional discharge. They never bothered these guys ever again.

[INFERNO]

Thats the fucked up thing at my school. We cant defend ourselves. If we retaliate we get the same punishment as the aggressor.

That's the same thing with my school. The rules clearly state that "If you're being beaten, then get into the fetal position and you wont be in trouble. If you throw a punch, even if it's not the first, then you suffer the same punishment". My grandfather disagrees with that, and he told me that that's stupid, and dangerous. If you do that then people withh think you're a wimp and pick on you more. I say screw that rule and defend yourself if you're hit. It's self-defence and the school can't change that. there's not much they can do to stop you, they just want less records of fist-fights.

There's an issue with using physical retaliation to defend yourself. It may sound a little odd, however, let's say someone is beating you up. You defend yourself, and in doing so, you can either go beyond self-defence and also commit physical assault, or you do self-defense but, say, you kick the person, they fall over and get a concussion. You're left with a bruise or two, and they bully is left like a lump on the ground with a concussion.

There's a fine line between self-defense and physical assault, and this line can get blurred more if you know martial arts.

Personally, having a rule of just standing there and taking the beating is quite silly. Every time I got beat up, I fought back because you're doing yourself no benefit by just curling in the fetal position, hoping that the bully will quit beating you up.

Ideally, get the authorities involved, however, if you also resort to physical retaliation, then you have now put yourself at a risk of physical assault. If the bully is beating you in the face, then, say, a kick to the nuts to the bully could get them to stop, that can be argued as being more of self-defense than physical assault. However, if after the bully is unable to defend themselves from the nut kick and you hit them or kick them once more, now you've physically assaulted them.

In schools, I suppose self-defense is also viewed as fighting and ideally, they'd want as few fights as possible, hence, the idea of not fighting back. It could also be that if you don't fight back, then it's very easy and little to no controversy as to who is punished and how they are punished. However, if you physically retaliate, then they may want to also punish you, but, returning to my example, if you get your face kicked in and in turn give 1 nut shot, it seems unfair for the two of you to get the same punishment. In the school's eyes, it's fighting and they'd usually punish both parties.

Well then the system of law is fucked up.

[Skeln]

It is all relative.
If they honestly feel that their life is at risk then the use of violence in self defense is acceptable. However, in bullying cases this is very rare.
It is more common for a bullying victim to sustain non-life threatening injuries. In these cases, contact the police and document incidences with photos and a diary.

Only through getting the authorities involved will the bully actually be punished. If we don't use the justice system to serve out punishments to those who deserve them then what is the point in them existing? I say let the police protect you from the bullies and let the courts punish them - that is what they are there to do.

What if you're just casually walking along, and a bully comes up to you and punches you in the face and then starts kicking you when you're on the ground? Yeah that's real smart to let the authorities handle it and just sit there and try your best to not get kicked in the face.

If you are in that situation, then hitting the bully back to the point where you can make an escape is self-defense and you can't get punished for that.

If the bully is beating you in the face, then, say, a kick to the nuts to the bully could get them to stop, that can be argued as being more of self-defense than physical assault
This is what I'm saying right now. If you are in any sort of fist-fight then your life is in danger, I just want to mantion that because you could easily have your neck broken from a bunch to the face or you could fall and cause brain damage. It's only physical assault if your target is defenseless. If you've nocked them to the ground, then you get out of there and contact the authorities. If you start kicking him while he's on the ground, then that's assault.

You have to realize that if any form of fighting back was assault, then you couldn't legally defend yourself no matter what. It's only assault if the target is defenseless. And trust me, I've seen cases where a bully just comes up and hts someone for no reason. It happened to my friend right in front of my eyes, and we never knew the guy.

[INFERNO]

This is what I'm saying right now. If you are in any sort of fist-fight then your life is in danger, I just want to mantion that because you could easily have your neck broken from a bunch to the face or you could fall and cause brain damage. It's only physical assault if your target is defenseless. If you've nocked them to the ground, then you get out of there and contact the authorities. If you start kicking him while he's on the ground, then that's assault.

I agree, your health is in jepordy (a kick to the head generally isn't going to lead to great temporary health or possibly long-term), your sense of well-being is in danger, you may get robbed in the process, and overall, your life is in danger.


You have to realize that if any form of fighting back was assault, then you couldn't legally defend yourself no matter what. It's only assault if the target is defenseless. And trust me, I've seen cases where a bully just comes up and hts someone for no reason. It happened to my friend right in front of my eyes, and we never knew the guy.

I still think the only reasons for schools saying not to fight back is to show they have fewer physical fights and to make it a lot easier to determine who is to blame. Even if it's self-defense, you strike back somehow, and hence, that's contributing to a physical fight, so tally up one more student fighter.

Suppose you do just sit there like a bump on a log and get the piss kicked out of you. Great, you get no legal punishment, you can just get up, walk and tell your frien-... oh wait, nevermind, you're sitting in a chair with the interaction comparable to a vegetable, where a nurse or your family comes in to wipe the drool off and take their strong, athletic child to the washroom because they no longer have the cognitive capacity to do so. That, and your friends have left you, your goals, well they're unachievable.

Granted, you won't always become a vegetable but the less you fight back and the angrier the bully is, the more likely it is.

[Camazotz]

Some may say that being bullied makes you tougher. But you wouldn't need to be tough if there were no bullies to begin with. I am against bullying, and I believe more should be done to prevent it.

[Skeln]

No matter what, there will always be bullying. Whether it be physical or verbal, in schools or in the work office, there will always be bullies so it's best to accept that.

I know we all can agree that life would be better without bullying, but it's just not going to happen. It's the natural instinct for some, it's how many animals survive to this day and it's how humans used to survive when we were primative species. Survival of the fittest, it's implanted into every sane person's brain. Some just handle it differently.

[left footed mofo]

Ok, most people were just leaving little snippets explaining their points of view, you, Semp, are the only person save me who's gone into detail at all.
To point out, i wrote mine as persuasive writing, not as an argument, so i'll read and criticize yours as such.

I personally believe it destroys lives, a lot more than it benefits society. Of course it depends on the situation and the place.

Ok, fair enough.

But the most common kind of bullying, is bullying that occurs at school. In 8/10 cases the person being bullied is because she/he is different moreso than weak (contrary to popular belief). In the not-so-distant past, people got bullied for being a different race or religion, and it still happens today at some schools. How in hell is someones race or religious beliefs a weakness?

The last sentence of that made it seem more like a rant then anything else, but otherwise fair.

Of course people get bullied for being "nerdy", "ugly", fat, homosexual, bisexual skinny or short which are more controllable differences, but are moreso called weaknesses. People also get bullied for being Goths and Emos, too - but these are still just differences.

Being non-heterosexual or short are controllable? I beg to differ.
If they're controllable at all, it's not by the person in question. Unless you mean not telling anyone about their sexuality, in which case it is.

Different people get bullied because they are not blending in with the "majority". The majority will always misunderstand or hate the "outsider".

Not ALWAYS true, but i accept your point.

In my personal opinion, bullying is a horrible and very cowardly, unneccesary thing. Bullying causes people to become depressed, anxious, self-harm, develope eating disorders and drop in school performance - either because they start skipping school, or losing concentration on their work. How the fuck does this kind of thing benefit society? To succeed in life, and of course society, one must be educated to contribute, so it's actually the very opposite in a way.

Horrible: Matter of opinion, but you already said it was.
Very cowardly: I've yet to hear anyone even try to explain how bullying's cowardly in anyway. It just seems like random, unfounded insults to me.
Unnecessary: Yet again, debatable.

You're ranting again, asking how something benefits society can be done better, try "Can anybody explain how this would benefit society?"

The need to be educated is fairly irrelevant here, being bullied doesn't necessarily cause you to lose out on education. The loss of school days comes from failing parents and school systems that can't keep kids in school. I should also add that bullying can, and does happen outside of school as well.
It's a bit off topic but i should add it. You don't HAVE to be educated to succeed.

Extreme cases of bullying include suicide and massacres - such as the Columbine Massacre and Virginia Tech which happened in the USA, and I'm sure there's been a few others. I know these are "rare", but FFS, I wish people would stop using the fact they rarely happen to justify bullying - the fact is; if the they were never bullied, the massacres wouldn't happen in the first place. No, I'm not saying the people who commited these mass murders were right in doing so, or anything, and bless the people that died in them. But still....

Yet again, you're ranting a little bit. If you don't like people calling the massacres rare, you're going to need to get used to it, because the fact is, they are. And for all anybody knows, they might have done it anyway, they could have been cacodemonomaniacs who thought they had no control.
Don't worry, i don't think anyone thinks you were trying to justify school shootings.

Some people may survive bullying as more strong, and capable people. But this is rare, and they still did not deserve to get the shit they went through, regardless. And I do not count the people who changed, assimilated or became bullies themselves as the people who are "strong". Rather.. they broke out the wrong way.

I don't think that people being stronger/better people due to bullying is all that rare, but sadly there's no way to accurately measure this.
If it is at all rare, it's because of bullying's bad reputation. If more people thought that bullying could have positive effects, then via a placebo effect of sorts, more people would gain from it, as they would think something along the lines of "People can gain from being bullied, and i've just been bullied, so i must have gained" and would have higher self-esteem. The same way that some of the negative effects associated with bullying are the fault of a placebo effect.

Whether or not they deserved it is a different debate altogether, and varies so heavily person-to-person that it's pointless to discuss.

Going from bullied to bully happens, the people who this happens to aren't necessarily stronger, but sometimes are.
Also, i have no idea what 'broke out the wrong way' means. Not having a go, it's just a gap in my knowledge.

In other institions, however, a kind of bullying is actually acceptable. For example if you join the Army or Marines, you voluntary sign up (meaning you know what you're up against, and willing), and it is the Drill Sergeant/Drill Instructor's job to kick out all your sloppiness and bad habits, and make you into a soldier. Not only this, but the DS/DI does not discriminate on a personal basis (except to experiment), but rather your performance. Some people may see this as bullying or cruel, but I agree it's neccesary for a military to function properly. However, the "blanket parties" (like the one in the movie Full Metal Jacket), I believe are down-right cowardly, and have a bad effect, as people in the military are trained to work as a team. You don't beat the fuck out of someone in your team, do you? It's a sign of severe mistrust, and of course it causes the victim to mistrust and hate you.

I completely agree, bullying is more necessary in the armed forces than anywhere else.

I've never seen Full Metal Jacket and have no idea what a 'Blanket Party' is, but it sound violent. This leads me back to a point i made in my original post which is that one-offs are often referred to as bullying, so the 'Blanket Party Theory' or whatever you want to call it is fairly irrelevant (unless 'Blanket Party' constitutes more then one incident). What i will say though is this: i've had the living shit beaten out of me by people, it doesn't necessarily cause hate.

So to conclude, or at least my tl;dr version is:

I mostly disagree with and hate bullying. Has very few benefits, and is a very bad problem, and no it doesn't contribute to society at all, except in the military - which has it's own reasons for being the way it is.

It's not THAT huge a problem, the problem is the media that makes it seem more important than worse issues like rape or domestic abuse.

To make one last point; more then once back there you called bullying 'cowardly'. This is ungrounded and comes from prejudices that everyone gets fed by their teachers and (sometimes) parents from a very early age. We all get taught/fed, by teachers, carers and the media that bullies are generally-aggressive, have no friends save the occasional crony, and that we should hate them. Some people grow out of this and form their own opinions, be it that they dislike, like or have no strong opinion towards bullies. Others never grow out of it and view bullies in the same distorted light for their whole lives.

[left footed mofo]

No matter what, there will always be bullying. Whether it be physical or verbal, in schools or in the work office, there will always be bullies so it's best to accept that.

I completely agree, people may name their campaign 'beat bullying', but bullying ending completely just isn't going ti happen

I know we all can agree that life would be better without bullying, but it's just not going to happen. It's the natural instinct for some, it's how many animals survive to this day and it's how humans used to survive when we were primative species. Survival of the fittest, it's implanted into every sane person's brain. Some just handle it differently.

I agree that life would be MORE ENJOYABLE without bullying, but not better, if you get what i mean.
Overall, you make a lot of good points

[Shattered Soul]

There will always be bullying, and it does destroy lives. It has so far destroyed mine, but i'm trying to pick myself up from it. It can lead to suicide and murder.
Sometimes a person may find themselves to be a more caring and tolerant person when they come out the otherside of it. But it causes low self esteem and low self confidence.
Overall, bullying is a terrible thing, it can destroy lives, but if people pull through it, the outcomes can be good.

[Skeln]

I agree that life would be MORE ENJOYABLE without bullying, but not better, if you get what i mean.
Overall, you make a lot of good points
Why thank you! I like this new member, he compliments me! :smile:

[left footed mofo]

Why thank you! I like this new member, he compliments me! :smile:

:yeah:W00t! I'm getting that Will Smith reputation!
lol

[Koman]

Is this even a question? Bullying is obviously terrible and can lead to suicide and mass murders. Risking the health of civilians so you can get a few laughs off on some nerd. Get real, anyone who thinks bullying is good should understand what it is like and how it can cause sevre phsyclogic issues in people along wih self esteem probelms.

[INFERNO]

Is this even a question?

Yes it is.

Bullying is obviously terrible and can lead to suicide and mass murders.

It can, however, does that occur most often? It's akin to saying people should stop camping in the winter because they may need surgery to remove deadened limbs. Yes, that's possible but is it the most frequent result? No. So using infrequent results where there likely are other causes leads to confoundation.

Risking the health of civilians so you can get a few laughs off on some nerd.

Generally, bullies were once bullied or abused themselves in some way, so it may not necessarily be simply for laughs. That may be the overt result, however, the true reason for it may be to humiliate the victim in order to gain self-esteem, etc..., not necessarily simply for shits and giggles.

Get real, anyone who thinks bullying is good should understand what it is like and how it can cause sevre phsyclogic issues in people along wih self esteem probelms.

Agreed, it can indeed cause psychological issues in the victim, however, the bully themselves tends to have experienced issues themselves. I'm not saying that bullying is always a good thing as it does indeed lead to psychological issues most of the time. However, in leading to those issue, it also can lead to becoming more tolerant of bullying. My overall view is that it depends on the specific form of bullying, the amount of bullies, the duration and intensity/severity of bullying, the amount of help the victim seeks and receives, etc... . I find it unfitting to simply say that bullying in general is either good or bad, as it does vary.

[Koman]

I think if you are looking to toughen people up there are better ways to go about it. Bullying iant he answer. And why do people need to be tough? If they were born a bit sissy or feminin, who are you to make fun of them for it? If they wanted to be different they could change themselves without doing permenant damage within. What are the types of bullying? Verbal--bad, and physical--bad. I can see teasing someone a little bit but not flat out verbal abuse. If someone really wants bullied they join the army or the marines.

[INFERNO]

I think if you are looking to toughen people up there are better ways to go about it. Bullying iant he answer. And why do people need to be tough? If they were born a bit sissy or feminin, who are you to make fun of them for it? If they wanted to be different they could change themselves without doing permenant damage within. What are the types of bullying? Verbal--bad, and physical--bad. I can see teasing someone a little bit but not flat out verbal abuse. If someone really wants bullied they join the army or the marines.

People need to be toughened up because the world is not a place of bunnies and rainbows, it's not a place where everyone and everything is wonderful and pleasant. I'm not saying the world is always a bucket of crap but it's not always wonderful either. So, people have to somewhat match the amount of difficulty and hardships in the world, and it's easier to do that successfully by being toughened up.

Bullying may not be the answer for this, there can be other ways in doing so, I agree.

Verbal, physical, financial, sexual, psychological/emotional, medical and materialistic are different types of bullying or abuse, and each category has its own diverse sub-categories.

[Koman]

Let them be. If they want to be in their own word let them. Do, you. Dont worry about other people. What are they hurting? You seem to be quite the bully connosseir .

[INFERNO]

Let them be. If they want to be in their own word let them. Do, you. Dont worry about other people. What are they hurting? You seem to be quite the bully connosseir .

Debate the topic not the debater. I am a human and that is all that matters for the purpose of this debate. Who are you referring to by "they" in what are they hurting? If it's the bully, then that's obvious, if it's the victim, then they are being hurt. By not toughening up, they could hurt others in reaction to the stress and anger or sadness they experience or they could hurt themselves in wishing to remove themselves from the cruel world.

[Koman]

Debate the topic not the debater. I am a human and that is all that matters for the purpose of this debate. Who are you referring to by "they" in what are they hurting? If it's the bully, then that's obvious, if it's the victim, then they are being hurt. By not toughening up, they could hurt others in reaction to the stress and anger or sadness they experience or they could hurt themselves in wishing to remove themselves from the cruel world.
They = victim

Omg there is no way to give being mean to someone a positive spin.

[INFERNO]

They = victim

Omg there is no way to give being mean to someone a positive spin.

I'm not giving it a positive spin. I'm showing both sides, positive and negative. I've been doing this for as many of my posts in this thread as possible.

[Koman]

I'm not giving it a positive spin. I'm showing both sides, positive and negative. I've been doing this for as many of my posts in this thread as possible.


Ok lets try again,

The negatives far outweight the so called "positives"

Negatives :
phsycolagical issues such as, self esteem problems, loniliness, thoughts of suicide, inequality.
Mental issues; such as eating disorders, cutting, drug abuse, alchoholism.
They can also be shown to direct their reactions in an outward aggression towads their: family, friends, co-workers, classmates, bullies, innocent people.

Positives:
"toughening up" (if victims dont want to be toughened up, get over it)


There is not posiive side to bullying.

[INFERNO]

Positives:
"toughening up" (if victims dont want to be toughened up, get over it)


There is not posiive side to bullying.

You've shown a positive then said there are no positives, which is a contradiction. The positive may not outweigh the negatives, I'll acknowledge that, however, you identified a positive regardless.

[Koman]

You've shown a positive then said there are no positives, which is a contradiction. The positive may not outweigh the negatives, I'll acknowledge that, however, you identified a positive regardless.

I stated i mearly as a false positive because really, none of the victim want to be toughened up. Game over.

[theOperaGhost]

I stated i mearly as a false positive because really, none of the victim want to be toughened up. Game over.

Why wouldn't a victim want to toughen up to a cruel society? Bullying is shit compared to real life, adult situations. People need the toughening up.

[Koman]

Why wouldn't a victim want to toughen up to a cruel society? Bullying is shit compared to real life, adult situations. People need the toughening up.

If they dont want to you can force them. Its called will.

[INFERNO]

I stated i mearly as a false positive because really, none of the victim want to be toughened up. Game over.

It does not matter if the victim wants to be toughened up, they may get toughened up regardless if they wished to be or if they wished to be bullied. If if happens, then it happens, it does not require their consent. That is a positive, which is a contradiction to you saying there are no positive results.

I agree with the OperaGhost on people needing to be toughened up.

[Koman]

Well the huge list of negatives including suicide, school shootings and self harm among others, completely nullify the positives. Great, now you have a shooter who has backbone. Congrats, he killed his classmates.

[theOperaGhost]

Well the huge list of negatives including suicide, school shootings and self harm among others, completely nullify the positives. Great, now you have a shooter who has backbone. Congrats, he killed his classmates.

This is just as bad as saying playing a violent video game or listening to Metallica led a person to commit suicide or do a school shooting.

[Koman]

This is just as bad as saying playing a violent video game or listening to Metallica led a person to commit suicide or do a school shooting.


no, bullying has proof of causing these things. Video games do not, nor does music.

[theOperaGhost]

no, bullying has proof of causing these things. Video games do not, nor does music.

That is arguable. There are plenty of people who can and do argue that Metallica songs have in fact led people to commit suicide. Video games have in fact been linked to violence in teens.

[INFERNO]

Well the huge list of negatives including suicide, school shootings and self harm among others, completely nullify the positives. Great, now you have a shooter who has backbone. Congrats, he killed his classmates.

School shootings are not a common result of bullying. The negatives in general, such as low self-esteem, self-harm and other psychological and physiological outcomes do outweigh the positives.

However, using school shootings to justify negative outcomes of bullying to me is a horrible argument. It is just as easy as saying anything negative, such as certain music led a person to do school shootings. The severe negative outcomes are a combination of factors at work, and the bullying is a factor, however, it is not the only contributor, there are many contributors at work. Thus, I find using school shootings as an argument against bullying to be a horrible argument as you do not know just how much the bullying actually did in comparison to the many other factors.

You cannot simply have numerous factors at work, pick only one of the many and blame that one factor to be the cause while ignoring the many others. Such arguments involve various fallacies, such as base assertion fallacy, if-by-whisky (sp?), red herring fallacy, proof by example, etc... .

[Koman]

That is arguable. There are plenty of people who can and do argue that Metallica songs have in fact led people to commit suicide. Video games have in fact been linked to violence in teens.

So you take back what you said in your previous post?

[theOperaGhost]

So you take back what you said in your previous post?

How did I take back what I said in a previous post?

[INFERNO]

no, bullying has proof of causing these things. Video games do not, nor does music.

Video games are arguable via using the Bandura Bobo Doll experiment, whereby kids see an adult commit violence (i.e. kids see a video game character harm/kill/bully someone) and end up doing the same or similar violence.

Music is arguable via messages being given subconsciously.

The amount of metal music and such being blamed for bullying or killing is quite large also.

[theOperaGhost]

Video games are arguable via using the Bandura Bobo Doll experiment, whereby kids see an adult commit violence (i.e. kids see a video game character harm/kill/bully someone) and end up doing the same or similar violence.

Music is arguable via messages being given subconsciously.

The amount of metal music and such being blamed for bullying or killing is quite large also.

There is supposedly even a piano piece written in the late classical or early romantic period that led a lot of people to suicide. I don't remember what it is...I should research it.

[left footed mofo]

Ok lets try again,

The negatives far outweight the so called "positives"

Negatives :
phsycolagical issues such as, self esteem problems, loniliness, thoughts of suicide, inequality.
Mental issues; such as eating disorders, cutting, drug abuse, alchoholism.
They can also be shown to direct their reactions in an outward aggression towads their: family, friends, co-workers, classmates, bullies, innocent people.

Positives:
"toughening up" (if victims dont want to be toughened up, get over it)


There is not posiive side to bullying.

Let's be slightly more realistic here

Negatives :
phsycolagical issues such as, self esteem problems, thoughts of suicide.
Mental issues; such as eating disorders, cutting, drug abuse, alchoholism.
They can also be shown to direct their reactions in an outward aggression towads their: family, friends, co-workers, classmates

Positives:
toughening up, being showed the harsh and machiavellian way the world is, learning coping stratagies, finding new friends (this may seem like a strange thing to put, but if you're being bullied, you more then ever, look for friends) increased drive (to try to show the bully that you're better), loss of bad habits.

I'm on the pro side of this, as you've guessed, but i CAN look at the other side. I know that bullying can have negative effects, but you need to realize that it can have good ones

[Sapphire]

That is arguable. There are plenty of people who can and do argue that Metallica songs have in fact led people to commit suicide. Video games have in fact been linked to violence in teens.The key word there being "linked" there is, as of yet, no evidence that one causes the other. Correlations do not allow for causal statements to be made.

[INFERNO]

I'm on the pro side of this, as you've guessed, but i CAN look at the other side. I know that bullying can have negative effects, but you need to realize that it can have good ones

Thank you, someone agrees, you have to look at both sides, not only one side.

[Koman]

Let's be slightly more realistic here

Negatives :
phsycolagical issues such as, self esteem problems, thoughts of suicide.
Mental issues; such as eating disorders, cutting, drug abuse, alchoholism.
They can also be shown to direct their reactions in an outward aggression towads their: family, friends, co-workers, classmates

Positives:
toughening up, being showed the harsh and machiavellian way the world is, learning coping stratagies, finding new friends (this may seem like a strange thing to put, but if you're being bullied, you more then ever, look for friends) increased drive (to try to show the bully that you're better), loss of bad habits.

I'm on the pro side of this, as you've guessed, but i CAN look at the other side. I know that bullying can have negative effects, but you need to realize that it can have good ones
Are you trying to tell me bullying cant cause lonliness or feelings of inequality, anxiety, and fear?

[Camazotz]

Let's be slightly more realistic here

Negatives :
phsycolagical issues such as, self esteem problems, thoughts of suicide.
Mental issues; such as eating disorders, cutting, drug abuse, alchoholism.
They can also be shown to direct their reactions in an outward aggression towads their: family, friends, co-workers, classmates

Positives:
toughening up, being showed the harsh and machiavellian way the world is, learning coping stratagies, finding new friends (this may seem like a strange thing to put, but if you're being bullied, you more then ever, look for friends) increased drive (to try to show the bully that you're better), loss of bad habits.

I'm on the pro side of this, as you've guessed, but i CAN look at the other side. I know that bullying can have negative effects, but you need to realize that it can have good ones

I agree with everything you've said, except for about being on the pro-side. Being "pro" means you agree with. Therefore, you agree with bullying, which in my opinion, is very wrong. No one wants to be bullied, so you just shouldn't do it. There are healthier ways to "toughen up", like playing a sport or exercising.

[INFERNO]

Are you trying to tell me bullying cant cause lonliness or feelings of inequality, anxiety, and fear?

Numerous things can lead to those and when someone is being bullied, chances are they're dealing with everyday issues or issues at home, friends, etc... ,common to uncommon issues. That being said, you cannot simply single out bullying as being a cause when a variety of other factors are also at play. There's a correlation between bullying and those results you mentioned.

[left footed mofo]

Are you trying to tell me bullying cant cause lonliness or feelings of inequality, anxiety, and fear?

Loneliness? No, no it doesn't.
Feelings of inequality? You didn't put that, you just put 'inequality' which isn't caused by bullying.
Anxiety and fear? You never wrote those, i didn't remove them.

[left footed mofo]

I agree with everything you've said, except for about being on the pro-side. Being "pro" means you agree with. Therefore, you agree with bullying, which in my opinion, is very wrong. No one wants to be bullied, so you just shouldn't do it. There are healthier ways to "toughen up", like playing a sport or exercising.

Yes, i do agree with it.
No, i wouldn't enjoy being bullied, nor do i think anyone else would, much in the same way people don't enjoy getting injections, having bad teeth pulled, ETC.
Unpleasant doesn't mean non-beneficial.

[Sapphire]

Yes, i do agree with it.
No, i wouldn't enjoy being bullied, nor do i think anyone else would, much in the same way people don't enjoy getting injections, having bad teeth pulled, ETC.
Unpleasant doesn't mean non-beneficial.
You can't deny that (as Camazotz has said) there are healthier ways for people to toughen up, make friends etc such as sport.

[left footed mofo]

You can't deny that (as Camazotz has said) there are healthier ways for people to toughen up, make friends etc such as sport.

I can't play any sport for my life, on the other hand, i'm VERY good at being bullied.:D
Ok, that was a joke (but really, i can't play sport)

Sport doesn't carry with it the same benefits that bullying does, sport increases strength and fitness, no doubt. But it doesn't help develop coping strategies or help to get rid of bad habits.
They're both good, but in different ways

[Sapphire]

Exercise is actually a very good way of dealing with stress. It activates all sorts of hormones and neurotransmitters that are good for your mood. It also improves your blood circulation and clears your thinking.

[left footed mofo]

Exercise is actually a very good way of dealing with stress. It activates all sorts of hormones and neurotransmitters that are good for your mood. It also improves your blood circulation and clears your thinking.

I never knew that.
Interesting as that is, i fail to see a connection

[Sapphire]

I never knew that.
Interesting as that is, i fail to see a connection
It shows that exercise is a healthier way for people to "toughen up", make new friends and deal with stress. If it is healthier and without any real disadvantages then it clearly trumps bullying which has a whole host of disadvantages.

[left footed mofo]

It shows that exercise is a healthier way for people to "toughen up", make new friends and deal with stress. If it is healthier and without any real disadvantages then it clearly trumps bullying which has a whole host of disadvantages.

I don't think exercise toughens you up mentally, at all. It's better for dealing with stress, yes. It's better for improving PHYSICAL strength and fitness.
Exercise DOES NOT teach you that the world isn't all fields, flowers and bunnies, it doesn't help you shed bad habits, it doesn't help you cope with negativity from others. Granted exercise has no downsides short of the risk of pulling a hamstring or something, but it can't benefit people IN THE SAME WAY.

If i may speak from personal experience.
When i was in my first 3 years of school (reception, yr1, yr2) i was a CHRONIC snitch (grasser, dobber, tattle-tale, whatever) i don't just mean on big things, i would snitch on someone for picking their nose, for plucking the wrong flower, ETC.
When i was in yr 3, i snitched on a kid, i don't remember what for, but it was something minor. The next day, he came around the corner with three of his friends, and they beat the living shit out of me.
Now, being young and dumb, i snitched on them for that, so they did it again and this cycle continued for a bit, until i stopped snitching.
I got taught by bullying what i don't think i would have been taught any other way and i'm a better person for it.

In an unrelated not, can a mod make this thread a poll, the question should be "how do you feel about bullying" and the answers should be:
1. it has no upside
2. the downsides outweigh the upsides
3. the upsides and downsides are about equal
4. the upsides outweigh the downsides
5. it has no downside
6. i really don't care

[Sapphire]

I don't think exercise toughens you up mentally, at all. It's better for dealing with stress, yes. It's better for improving PHYSICAL strength and fitness.
Exercise DOES NOT teach you that the world isn't all fields, flowers and bunnies, it doesn't help you shed bad habits, it doesn't help you cope with negativity from others. Granted exercise has no downsides short of the risk of pulling a hamstring or something, but it can't benefit people IN THE SAME WAY.I disagree.
Being a member of a team, you will learn to take your losses and your cock-ups in your stride and to learn from them. You will start to learn to focus on what is important in the moment and block out everything else. You also learn to control negative thinking - for example instead of thinking that there's no way in hell that you could make a shot, you examine it closely, trust your instincts and take it.
They are all examples of being mentally tough.

Also if bullying toughens people mentally, why do the bullied often become bullies. Mentally tough people do not need to pick on others. They push themselves to succeed. Bullying definitely isn't typical behaviour of mental toughness.

If i may speak from personal experience.
When i was in my first 3 years of school (reception, yr1, yr2) i was a CHRONIC snitch (grasser, dobber, tattle-tale, whatever) i don't just mean on big things, i would snitch on someone for picking their nose, for plucking the wrong flower, ETC.
When i was in yr 3, i snitched on a kid, i don't remember what for, but it was something minor. The next day, he came around the corner with three of his friends, and they beat the living shit out of me.
Now, being young and dumb, i snitched on them for that, so they did it again and this cycle continued for a bit, until i stopped snitching.
I got taught by bullying what i don't think i would have been taught any other way and i'm a better person for it.That's good that you feel you are a better person for it. However, you could have learnt that same lesson if you hadn't been bullied.
Now, if I may talk from experience. I was bullied from year 3 to year 7 for how I spoke. I didn't use slang. I didn't have a dialect. I was bullied for talking the Queen's English. In year 7 and 8, I was bullied for wanting to learn. In year 9, I was bullied for being depressed.
How did any of that warrant me being bullied? None of them were "bad habits" or weaknesses on my part.
How could any of it possibly have benefited me?

[left footed mofo]

I disagree.
Being a member of a team, you will learn to take your losses and your cock-ups in your stride and to learn from them. You will start to learn to focus on what is important in the moment and block out everything else. You also learn to control negative thinking - for example instead of thinking that there's no way in hell that you could make a shot, you examine it closely, trust your instincts and take it.
They are all examples of being mentally tough.

That's an interesting take on things, but what about sport AND bullying?
(I know theatsport V.S. bullying sounds dumb, but oh well)

Also if bullying toughens people mentally, why do the bullied often become bullies. Mentally tough people do not need to pick on others. They push themselves to succeed. Bullying definitely isn't typical behaviour of mental toughness.

How is bullying a sign of mental weakness, i hear this said a lot but have never heard any justification.

That's good that you feel you are a better person for it. However, you could have learnt that same lesson if you hadn't been bullied.
Now, if I may talk from experience. I was bullied from year 3 to year 7 for how I spoke. I didn't use slang. I didn't have a dialect. I was bullied for talking the Queen's English. In year 7 and 8, I was bullied for wanting to learn. In year 9, I was bullied for being depressed.
How did any of that warrant me being bullied? None of them were "bad habits" or weaknesses on my part.
How could any of it possibly have benefited me?

Ok, don't take any of this as a stab at you, but are you sure on those reasons, maybe wanting to learn was the root of it, but maybe you want to learn came out in a certain way, i don't know.
If you were bullied for not using slang (which i was at one point ironically) it was SORT OF a bad habit, because it set you aside from the other kids, as it did me, i learnt to use words like 'init' and 'sommat' and began to fit in more. I have no idea how you handled it, but i certainly gained from it.

[Sapphire]

That's an interesting take on things, but what about sport AND bullying?
(I know theatsport V.S. bullying sounds dumb, but oh well)What do you mean?

How is bullying a sign of mental weakness, i hear this said a lot but have never heard any justification.Someone who is mentally tough won't feel the need to humiliate another person because they are confident, focused and in control. They face and deal with challenges as they arise.
A bully is not in control of their anger and resorts to inspiring fear/humiliation in others to feel better in some way or another. There is nothing mentally tough about systematically hurting another person.

Ok, don't take any of this as a stab at you, but are you sure on those reasons, maybe wanting to learn was the root of it, but maybe you want to learn came out in a certain way, i don't know.
If you were bullied for not using slang (which i was at one point ironically) it was SORT OF a bad habit, because it set you aside from the other kids, as it did me, i learnt to use words like 'init' and 'sommat' and began to fit in more. I have no idea how you handled it, but i certainly gained from it.
Yes, I am sure.
I fail to see how using slang is a strength over not using it. Slang is not an attractive way to speak. I had plenty of friends who didn't speak as well as I did, but they didn't use slang a lot and they didn't swear so I don't see it as having seperated me from everyone. The bullies were the only ones who had a problem with it.
Changing the way I spoke wouldn't have benefited me because the bullies would have chosen something else to justify picking on me. Also, my parents went ballistic when they heard me utter one slang erm so if I had adopted it more willing I would have been right in the shit.

[left footed mofo]

What do you mean?

I was just saying that comparing sport to bullying isn't exactly the norm, lol:lol:

Someone who is mentally tough won't feel the need to humiliate another person because they are confident, focused and in control. They face and deal with challenges as they arise.
A bully is not in control of their anger and resorts to inspiring fear/humiliation in others to feel better in some way or another. There is nothing mentally tough about systematically hurting another person.

i'm skeptical, whereas i'm not arguing that bullies are all mentally strong, but that they CAN be.
As far as not being in control goes, i think that's only true in extreme cases where someone gets badly hurt.
I also don't think that not all bullies do it to feel good or whatever, as a former bully i can honestly say that i did it so that my targets could have the same benefits that i did.

Yes, I am sure.

Ahite, fair enough

I fail to see how using slang is a strength over not using it. Slang is not an attractive way to speak. I had plenty of friends who didn't speak as well as I did, but they didn't use slang a lot and they didn't swear so I don't see it as having seperated me from everyone. The bullies were the only ones who had a problem with it.
Changing the way I spoke wouldn't have benefited me because the bullies would have chosen something else to justify picking on me. Also, my parents went ballistic when they heard me utter one slang erm so if I had adopted it more willing I would have been right in the shit.

I didn't refer to it as a strength or a weakness, and fair enough if it didn't separate you, it did for me and that's all i was saying.
I don't think they necessarily would have. Again, i don't know the bullies in question so they might have, but you never know, whenever i was bullied for something, if i could work out what it was for, i would stop and most if not all of the time, they would stop.
Same for my targets, if they stopped, i stopped.

If people don't like being bullied, there's almost always a way to stop it.

[Sapphire]

I was just saying that comparing sport to bullying isn't exactly the norm, lol:lol:Saying that bullying has benefits isn't exactly the norm either.

i'm skeptical, whereas i'm not arguing that bullies are all mentally strong, but that they CAN be.
As far as not being in control goes, i think that's only true in extreme cases where someone gets badly hurt.
I also don't think that not all bullies do it to feel good or whatever, as a former bully i can honestly say that i did it so that my targets could have the same benefits that i did.How can they be mentally tough?
Bullies aren't in complete control. If they were then they wouldn't be bullying people. It isn't solely isolated to extreme cases.
I didn't say that all bullies do it to feel good. But I seriously, seriously doubt that a significant number do it for the good of their victims.

I didn't refer to it as a strength or a weakness, and fair enough if it didn't separate you, it did for me and that's all i was saying.
I don't think they necessarily would have. Again, i don't know the bullies in question so they might have, but you never know, whenever i was bullied for something, if i could work out what it was for, i would stop and most if not all of the time, they would stop.
Same for my targets, if they stopped, i stopped.

If people don't like being bullied, there's almost always a way to stop it.
These people bullied me right from year 3 through to year 11. Their reasons changed as I have outlined, but they still bullied me. Changing once wouldn't have stopped them looking for something else.

Doing what the bully wants won't always stop the bullying. In some cases it could even make the bullies escalate their behaviour because they can get away with it.

[bennybronx]

bullyin is like other things where like, maybe 1 in 1000 benefits, but because 1 becomes stronger cos of it dont make it a good thing. what about the other 999 people?

[left footed mofo]

Saying that bullying has benefits isn't exactly the norm either.

It's not THAT rare.

How can they be mentally tough?
Bullies aren't in complete control. If they were then they wouldn't be bullying people. It isn't solely isolated to extreme cases.
I didn't say that all bullies do it to feel good. But I seriously, seriously doubt that a significant number do it for the good of their victims.

I still fail to see how the bullies aren't in control. It's debatable if what they're doing is right (as we are doing now), but they're in control of it.

As far as 'for the good of my target' goes, it was more for the good of the people who had to interact with said target. So in the long run it was better for society.

These people bullied me right from year 3 through to year 11. Their reasons changed as I have outlined, but they still bullied me. Changing once wouldn't have stopped them looking for something else.

Oh right, it was THE SAME people, gotcha, my bad.

Doing what the bully wants won't always stop the bullying. In some cases it could even make the bullies escalate their behaviour because they can get away with it.

It all depends on the bully.

You, me, INFERNO and most, if not all others here and either bullied or been bullied. I think we should ask someone who hasn't been bullied or been a bully, but has seen bullying or something, see what their opinion is. I'm interested.

bullyin is like other things where like, maybe 1 in 1000 benefits, but because 1 becomes stronger cos of it dont make it a good thing. what about the other 999 people?

It's nowhere near that rare.
It's a shame that there's no way to find out the exact ratio.

[Sapphire]

As far as 'for the good of my target' goes, it was more for the good of the people who had to interact with said target. So in the long run it was better for society.
How so? How do you know that the damage done was not equal to the so called benefits?

You have left my question unanswered. How can bullies be mentally tough?

[bennybronx]

ok mebe its not 1 in 1000 butpoint is there is a whole load more people who do not get the benefits of bullyin. I used to see bullys all the time and was never bullied or was a bully. i see how it may benefit someone but thats too rare i think. people dont really benefit more then they are upset from it and if they do, its gonna be a small amount, i mean, from what ive seen, bullyin is a really horrible thing, really horrible.

[left footed mofo]

How so? How do you know that the damage done was not equal to the so called benefits?

You have left my question unanswered. How can bullies be mentally tough?

I became friends with most of my targets at some point afterwards and it didn't seem like the 'damage' that i'd done them was equal to the good i'd done to them and those around them.

Because sometimes the bully will pick on someone's who's semi, or even fully popular, in which case repercussions would come in spades. Most bullies face the 'protector' problem at some point, the mentally strong ones can deal with it. The same way they need to be mentally strong if they're to keep going through any teacher-induced punishment (that is assuming it's school based)

Not saying ALL bullies are mentally strong, just the good ones.

ok mebe its not 1 in 1000 butpoint is there is a whole load more people who do not get the benefits of bullyin. I used to see bullys all the time and was never bullied or was a bully. i see how it may benefit someone but thats too rare i think. people dont really benefit more then they are upset from it and if they do, its gonna be a small amount, i mean, from what ive seen, bullyin is a really horrible thing, really horrible.

Do you think it might be that the benefits are more long term then the negatives which are usually there-and-then things.

(P.S. Can you PLEASE write your posts properly)

[bennybronx]

just asked a friend of mine an he says that he still hates the fact he was bullied and is offended by the thought that bullying can be a good thing. im getting the general idea from people i know that bullying hasnt really benefitted them. so no i dont think there are long term benefits for the large majority, only the very few

[lamboman43]

just asked a friend of mine an he says that he still hates the fact he was bullied and is offended by the thought that bullying can be a good thing. im getting the general idea from people i know that bullying hasnt really benefitted them. so no i dont think there are long term benefits for the large majority, only the very few

Ya, I dont feel any happier or better from being bullied.

[Sugaree]

Do you think that bullying helps society, or does it destroy lives? What's your opinion on bullying?

Seems that "Bullying" is the topic in ROtW for the past few days.

I don't think bullying helps society. But, it doesn't really destory lives (unless you take it the hard way). It's something that people do to show how "manly" or "tough" they are. Once they gain a reputation for being a bully, it goes to their head and they bully whoever they want. Bullying is a way to show how stupid you really are. As for the bullies I've dealt with, they all had some type of problem. They do it to hide their own problems and beat on others for their own pleasure. A person who is considered a bully, to me, is a bad person. Bullies will often lead a bad life after school/college and might end up on the streets mugging people for money. You never know.

[INFERNO]

ok mebe its not 1 in 1000 butpoint is there is a whole load more people who do not get the benefits of bullyin. I used to see bullys all the time and was never bullied or was a bully. i see how it may benefit someone but thats too rare i think. people dont really benefit more then they are upset from it and if they do, its gonna be a small amount, i mean, from what ive seen, bullyin is a really horrible thing, really horrible.

So you observed only a very small fraction of the people bullied and from that very small fraction, most did not benefit. The problem with that is (1) heresay, (2) poor sample size, (3) poor sample choosing, (4) your subjectivity and (5) how do you know the people did or did not benefit if you were not inside their heads, or were you a long-term confidant who talked to every single bullying victim?

Bullying being a "really horrible, really horrible" thing is also (1) subjective and (2) does not address whether it has good or bad consequences. Also, you failed to explain why it is so bad. In this type of debate, you must provide reasoning and evidence for your claim. Your claim, or statement, is bullying is horrible. Explain why.

just asked a friend of mine an he says that he still hates the fact he was bullied and is offended by the thought that bullying can be a good thing. im getting the general idea from people i know that bullying hasnt really benefitted them. so no i dont think there are long term benefits for the large majority, only the very few

All of this is heresay and we have no way to know that you in fact did speak to said friend and did not change what said friend said, except by assuming that you are not lying because, once again I'll assume, you'd claim to not be lying.

If your friends or whoever you spoke to is not present or you do not have an internet (or book, article, etc...) quote, then your argument and evidence cannot be verified that you are not giving false evidence or conjuring up evidence. You may see this is nit-picky or harsh, however, this is how a formal debate goes: you need evidence (that others have some way of verifying online or in a book or movie or show) and you need reasoning for your argument(s) and statement(s). You have no evidence that is regarded as usable and extremely poor reasoning as indicated above, so please, use proper evidence and explain your argument(s) and statement(s).

[bennybronx]

Seems that "Bullying" is the topic in ROtW for the past few days.

I don't think bullying helps society. But, it doesn't really destory lives (unless you take it the hard way). It's something that people do to show how "manly" or "tough" they are. Once they gain a reputation for being a bully, it goes to their head and they bully whoever they want. Bullying is a way to show how stupid you really are. As for the bullies I've dealt with, they all had some type of problem. They do it to hide their own problems and beat on others for their own pleasure. A person who is considered a bully, to me, is a bad person. Bullies will often lead a bad life after school/college and might end up on the streets mugging people for money. You never know.
FTW

So you observed only a very small fraction of the people bullied and from that very small fraction, most did not benefit. The problem with that is (1) heresay, (2) poor sample size, (3) poor sample choosing, (4) your subjectivity and (5) how do you know the people did or did not benefit if you were not inside their heads, or were you a long-term confidant who talked to every single bullying victim?

Bullying being a "really horrible, really horrible" thing is also (1) subjective and (2) does not address whether it has good or bad consequences. Also, you failed to explain why it is so bad. In this type of debate, you must provide reasoning and evidence for your claim. Your claim, or statement, is bullying is horrible. Explain why.



All of this is heresay and we have no way to know that you in fact did speak to said friend and did not change what said friend said, except by assuming that you are not lying because, once again I'll assume, you'd claim to not be lying.

If your friends or whoever you spoke to is not present or you do not have an internet (or book, article, etc...) quote, then your argument and evidence cannot be verified that you are not giving false evidence or conjuring up evidence. You may see this is nit-picky or harsh, however, this is how a formal debate goes: you need evidence (that others have some way of verifying online or in a book or movie or show) and you need reasoning for your argument(s) and statement(s). You have no evidence that is regarded as usable and extremely poor reasoning as indicated above, so please, use proper evidence and explain your argument(s) and statement(s).

Ok so my evidence is fair enough void as its pure word of mouth. Now lets look at yours? your evidence is you? how do i know you arent talking out of your arse and have never been bullied, you are just the guy who goes around picking on kids for self reassurance? I mean, yeah what i say on here, or what anyone says on here could be bollocks, you just as much as any of us hehehe

Yeah my samples may be made up (which they arent) but firstly, i know my friends, have been there when they have been bullied, have stepped in more then many a time and tried to help in some way other times. Ive also asked them if theyve benefitted from anything (reductionist) or all of it (wholist) to which they have claimed no, they would have hugely appreciated NOT being bullied at some point in their lives.

so i geuss thats one benefit? appreciating not being bullied more? lol

i have gotten into fights with many bullies, lost afew but won afew aswell so i do have a fair bit of knowledge on THOSE bullies. and fyi, my sample is from people who have been bullied, but because its not from a sample of people who were bullied but who have turned into bullies to complete some egocetric "be a man" chain its not a good sample?

And yeah, this could all be bollocks yes, but im afraid i dont have dates or mapping coordinates for the exact time and place these events happened lol

and my view that bullying is "subjectively horrible" is crap, if a bully shoves a kids face into the wall, what benefit is there? his cheeks may be stronger in future? he knows what brick tastes like? now put this into a regular basis, what exact benefit does this have on the bullied? theyre having to endure a large amount of pain, regularly, for no fault of their own, for just being who they are. are they supposed to change who they are? change their manerisms just so this one guy would leave them alone? thats not a solution, thats a compromise built out of desperation.

AND YES this could be all indivudual and be down to only happening to a select few, but so far there are like 2 or 3 people here who have benefitted more from being bullied, the rest havent. AND, by your reasoning, how do i know to take what you and/or the other few wo claim they benefitted as truth? nothing really, i just have to accept it and NOT BASE ARGUMENTS ON INDIVIDUAL PERCEPTIONS. If bullying was a good thing, you wouldnt have a whole load of teen suicides every year because of bullying, you wouldnt have campaigns aiming to stop bullying etc. . . .

[bennybronx]

it didn't seem like the 'damage' that i'd done them was equal to the good i'd done to them and those around them.


How do you know? where YOU inside THEIR heads? :P

[Sapphire]

I became friends with most of my targets at some point afterwards and it didn't seem like the 'damage' that i'd done them was equal to the good i'd done to them and those around them.The key word there being "seemed". Of all the people they know, do you really think they would confess to you that your bullying had hurt them and affected them negatively?

Because sometimes the bully will pick on someone's who's semi, or even fully popular, in which case repercussions would come in spades. Most bullies face the 'protector' problem at some point, the mentally strong ones can deal with it. The same way they need to be mentally strong if they're to keep going through any teacher-induced punishment (that is assuming it's school based)That isn't having mental toughness. Mental toughness much more than that.
http://www.potential2success.com/develpomentaltoughness.html

Not saying ALL bullies are mentally strong, just the good ones.The "good" ones?! How can a bully ever be described as "good"?! How can systematically victimising someone be a "good" thing?!

Do you think it might be that the benefits are more long term then the negatives which are usually there-and-then things.How are broken bones, depression, anxiety, self harm, over-eating and social withdrawal "there and then" things?

Ya, I dont feel any happier or better from being bullied.Neither do I. I don't think anyone who hasn't gone on to complete the abused-abuser cycle is happy or better off because they were bullied.

So you observed only a very small fraction of the people bullied and from that very small fraction, most did not benefit. The problem with that is (1) heresay, (2) poor sample size, (3) poor sample choosing, (4) your subjectivity and (5) how do you know the people did or did not benefit if you were not inside their heads, or were you a long-term confidant who talked to every single bullying victim?

Bullying being a "really horrible, really horrible" thing is also (1) subjective and (2) does not address whether it has good or bad consequences. Also, you failed to explain why it is so bad. In this type of debate, you must provide reasoning and evidence for your claim. Your claim, or statement, is bullying is horrible. Explain why.His sample is much better than yours. As far as I can gather your sample consists of your personal experiences. At least bennybronx has looked outside of his little bubble for evidence on bullying and it's effects.

If your friends or whoever you spoke to is not present or you do not have an internet (or book, article, etc...) quote, then your argument and evidence cannot be verified that you are not giving false evidence or conjuring up evidence. You may see this is nit-picky or harsh, however, this is how a formal debate goes: you need evidence (that others have some way of verifying online or in a book or movie or show) and you need reasoning for your argument(s) and statement(s). You have no evidence that is regarded as usable and extremely poor reasoning as indicated above, so please, use proper evidence and explain your argument(s) and statement(s).Find me two sources that state that bullying has benefits for the victim and isn't a horrible thing to experience.
There are an abundance of sources that illustrate the awful things people have experienced because of bullys.
http://www.nmha.org/go/information/get-info/children-s-mental-health/bullying-and-gay-youth
http://education.staffordshire.gov.uk/PupilSupport/Anti-Bullying/BullyingEffects/ (http://education.staffordshire.gov.uk/PupilSupport/Anti-Bullying/BullyingEffects/%5D)
Show us some that support the opposite if you are going to preach it with nothing but personal experience in your corner.

[antimonic]

If your friends or whoever you spoke to is not present or you do not have an internet (or book, article, etc...) quote, then your argument and evidence cannot be verified that you are not giving false evidence or conjuring up evidence. You may see this is nit-picky or harsh, however, this is how a formal debate goes: you need evidence (that others have some way of verifying online or in a book or movie or show) and you need reasoning for your argument(s) and statement(s). You have no evidence that is regarded as usable and extremely poor reasoning as indicated above, so please, use proper evidence and explain your argument(s) and statement(s).

You arent addressing his point, retaliating with a topic related point, or even being remotely useful, so in terms of debating skills you arent debating, just nit-picking? you'd be great as a politician though lol

and yeah, no real evidence other than personal experience can be given, i mean, i didnt know bullying incidents where documented, are they? if so then thats a valid reason why his evidence is faulted, but so far, its just as good as yours, if not better (because he has spoken to multiple people who are not bullies, just were bullied). so why not forget debating style and just debate? stop being a politician and start making valid points hehehe

Feel like a mod :P

[INFERNO]

Ok so my evidence is fair enough void as its pure word of mouth. Now lets look at yours? your evidence is you? how do i know you arent talking out of your arse and have never been bullied, you are just the guy who goes around picking on kids for self reassurance? I mean, yeah what i say on here, or what anyone says on here could be bollocks, you just as much as any of us hehehe

Nice assumption, however, not once in this thread have I reflected on myself nor my personal experiences with bullying.

Yeah my samples may be made up (which they arent) but firstly, i know my friends, have been there when they have been bullied, have stepped in more then many a time and tried to help in some way other times. Ive also asked them if theyve benefitted from anything (reductionist) or all of it (wholist) to which they have claimed no, they would have hugely appreciated NOT being bullied at some point in their lives.

Exactly, you know your friends, and it's heresay.

so i geuss thats one benefit? appreciating not being bullied more? lol

i have gotten into fights with many bullies, lost afew but won afew aswell so i do have a fair bit of knowledge on THOSE bullies. and fyi, my sample is from people who have been bullied, but because its not from a sample of people who were bullied but who have turned into bullies to complete some egocetric "be a man" chain its not a good sample?

Nope, I never said that it wasn't a good sample because it didn't include people who benefited. A small sample from people whom only you know (unless other VT users know you and your friends), likely composed of a relatively small amount of people, likely not a diverse age group makes it poor sampling.


and my view that bullying is "subjectively horrible" is crap, if a bully shoves a kids face into the wall, what benefit is there? his cheeks may be stronger in future? he knows what brick tastes like? now put this into a regular basis, what exact benefit does this have on the bullied? theyre having to endure a large amount of pain, regularly, for no fault of their own, for just being who they are. are they supposed to change who they are? change their manerisms just so this one guy would leave them alone? thats not a solution, thats a compromise built out of desperation.

As others and myself have stated, the bullying can toughen one up, make them more tolerant to bullying, especially to verbal bullying. Nothing about purposely changing who they are.

AND YES this could be all indivudual and be down to only happening to a select few, but so far there are like 2 or 3 people here who have benefitted more from being bullied, the rest havent. AND, by your reasoning, how do i know to take what you and/or the other few wo claim they benefitted as truth? nothing really, i just have to accept it and NOT BASE ARGUMENTS ON INDIVIDUAL PERCEPTIONS. If bullying was a good thing, you wouldnt have a whole load of teen suicides every year because of bullying, you wouldnt have campaigns aiming to stop bullying etc. . . .

Once again, I never mentioned in this thread how bullying affected me. I have used some of my personal experiences, which indeed can be argued against for the same reasons I've argued against yours but I've also based the arguments off of reading online what common results end up being.


His sample is much better than yours. As far as I can gather your sample consists of your personal experiences. At least bennybronx has looked outside of his little bubble for evidence on bullying and it's effects.

Find me two sources that state that bullying has benefits for the victim and isn't a horrible thing to experience.
There are an abundance of sources that illustrate the awful things people have experienced because of bullys.
http://www.nmha.org/go/information/get-info/children-s-mental-health/bullying-and-gay-youth
http://education.staffordshire.gov.uk/PupilSupport/Anti-Bullying/BullyingEffects/ (http://education.staffordshire.gov.uk/PupilSupport/Anti-Bullying/BullyingEffects/%5D)
Show us some that support the opposite if you are going to preach it with nothing but personal experience in your corner.

As I've said to bennybronx, I've based it off of more than mere personal experiences in this thread.

But, as you have asked for sources:

Bullying and the Big Five: A Study of Childhood Personality and Participant Roles in Bullying Incidents by Franca Tani, Paul S. Greenman, Barry H. Schneider and Manuela Fregoso from the School Psychology International (page 140) indicates that the bullying has little effect on openness (in fact, it's higher in the victims than the outsiders, the people who watch but don't help, so there's one benefit).

Another study:

Reactions to bullying and peer victimization: Narratives, physiological arousal and personality by Julie M. Bollmer, Monica J. Harris and Richard Milich in the Journal of Research in Personality indicated that when adults who previously bullied children were given narratives of a victim and the bully, the adult bullies were more forgiving and indicated that they were more sympathetic due to acknowledging that what they had committed before was wrong. They also indicated that some (not all) of the bullied victims can have a higher conscientiousness, however, the majority gets a lower conscientiousness. This higher amount agrees with my argument in that I stated that the majority may not benefit, however, some may.

[antimonic]

Nice assumption, however, not once in this thread have I reflected on myself nor my personal experiences with bullying.

Once again, I never mentioned in this thread how bullying affected me. I have used some of my personal experiences
contradiction? lol


Reactions to bullying and peer victimization: Narratives, physiological arousal and personality by Julie M. Bollmer, Monica J. Harris and Richard Milich in the Journal of Research in Personality indicated that when adults who previously bullied children were given narratives of a victim and the bully, the adult bullies were more forgiving and indicated that they were more sympathetic due to acknowledging that what they had committed before was wrong. They also indicated that some (not all) of the bullied victims can have a higher conscientiousness, however, the majority gets a lower conscientiousness. This higher amount agrees with my argument in that I stated that the majority may not benefit, however, some may.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WM0-4HDG96N-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=c4ea3f20ef23727c0c4af08315e267fb

thats the abstract for the second study, adults were not given narratives, the participant sample was 10-13 year olds?

And by the looks of it, this study is not looking at causal arguments, look at the first part of the results:

"Mediational analyses indicated that children who score low on Conscientiousness and high on Neuroticism are more likely to experience negative affect during peer conflict, such as feeling angrier, blaming the bully more, and forgiving less, and that these reactions are related to higher levels of victimization"

its looking correlations, and not really causal attributes. eg it cant be concluded that bulying CAUSES low conscientiousness in the victims? plus this doesnt support what youve been saying

second part of findings:
"For bullies, relations among Agreeableness, Conscientiousness, and bullying appear to be mediated by lesser feelings of guilt and gains in physiological arousal while telling a bullying narrative" again, how does this show anything youve stated? did you even read the findings? or did you just quote a citation in the hope noone would read up on it :D if so, good political skills! :P

[Sapphire]

Exactly, you know your friends, and it's heresay.If they have replied, upon being asked, that they didn't benefit at all that is reliable. Seeing as they had said it in reference to their own experiences, it cannot be classed as heresay.

As others and myself have stated, the bullying can toughen one up, make them more tolerant to bullying, especially to verbal bullying. Nothing about purposely changing who they are.And, as I and others have stated, that can all be achieved through better methods. These so called benefits are cancelled out by the fact that they can be gained through other methods without any of the disadvantages.

Once again, I never mentioned in this thread how bullying affected me. I have used some of my personal experiences, which indeed can be argued against for the same reasons I've argued against yours but I've also based the arguments off of reading online what common results end up being.

As I've said to bennybronx, I've based it off of more than mere personal experiences in this thread.

But, as you have asked for sources:

Bullying and the Big Five: A Study of Childhood Personality and Participant Roles in Bullying Incidents by Franca Tani, Paul S. Greenman, Barry H. Schneider and Manuela Fregoso from the School Psychology International (page 140) indicates that the bullying has little effect on openness (in fact, it's higher in the victims than the outsiders, the people who watch but don't help, so there's one benefit).This source does not support your argument. It does not address effects (positive or negative) of bullying, but rather how personality can influence children's behaviour in certain situations.

I fail to see the evidence of you having actually based this view on anything reliable and valid.
Would you care to find one that actually supports your statements?

[left footed mofo]

just asked a friend of mine an he says that he still hates the fact he was bullied and is offended by the thought that bullying can be a good thing. im getting the general idea from people i know that bullying hasnt really benefitted them. so no i dont think there are long term benefits for the large majority, only the very few

Well get your friend to make an account and say it him/herself. We have no way of knowing that your friend is even real. (Not that another account would, but we're nice people and don't usually assume multi-accounting)

FTW

What did that mean and how was it relevant?

Ok so my evidence is fair enough void as its pure word of mouth. Now lets look at yours? your evidence is you? how do i know you arent talking out of your arse and have never been bullied, you are just the guy who goes around picking on kids for self reassurance? I mean, yeah what i say on here, or what anyone says on here could be bollocks, you just as much as any of us hehehe

Why are you attacking the other debaters? Do you have no rational argument?

Yeah my samples may be made up (which they arent) but firstly, i know my friends, have been there when they have been bullied, have stepped in more then many a time and tried to help in some way other times. Ive also asked them if theyve benefitted from anything (reductionist) or all of it (wholist) to which they have claimed no, they would have hugely appreciated NOT being bullied at some point in their lives.

Ok, back to what i said a few posts ago about not being able to find out how many people have gained. They might not have realized that they gained, i know i didn't for a while. Some of my targets also took a while realizing.

so i geuss thats one benefit? appreciating not being bullied more? lol

Call it unfounded but i don't think you're taking this seriously :rolleyes:

i have gotten into fights with many bullies, lost afew but won afew aswell so i do have a fair bit of knowledge on THOSE bullies. and fyi, my sample is from people who have been bullied, but because its not from a sample of people who were bullied but who have turned into bullies to complete some egocetric "be a man" chain its not a good sample?

Were not talking about fighting here, that's a different issue.
You're calling it a ""Be a man" chain"? I just call it "trying to do for others what someone's done for you"

And yeah, this could all be bollocks yes, but im afraid i dont have dates or mapping coordinates for the exact time and place these events happened lol

We don't care exactly where and when.
By all means say what happened to you/your friends, but don't give statistics that you can't provide proof if.

and my view that bullying is "subjectively horrible" is crap, if a bully shoves a kids face into the wall, what benefit is there? his cheeks may be stronger in future? he knows what brick tastes like? now put this into a regular basis, what exact benefit does this have on the bullied? theyre having to endure a large amount of pain, regularly, for no fault of their own, for just being who they are.

The kid in question would most likely avoid said wall :rolleyes:
Also, a small amount of bullying involves things like this, most bullying is non-physical, and most physical is more minor, like a slight arm-punch here or a shove-over there, not a face-into-a-wall everyday.

are they supposed to change who they are? change their manerisms just so this one guy would leave them alone? thats not a solution, thats a compromise built out of desperation.

But said mannerisms could be hugely disgusting or otherwise anti-social (As in the case of me and my targets), in such a case, they should change.

AND YES this could be all indivudual and be down to only happening to a select few, but so far there are like 2 or 3 people here who have benefitted more from being bullied, the rest havent. AND, by your reasoning, how do i know to take what you and/or the other few wo claim they benefitted as truth? nothing really, i just have to accept it and NOT BASE ARGUMENTS ON INDIVIDUAL PERCEPTIONS.

Ok, calm down, there's no need to get annoyed with the other debaters. i (maybe even we) accept your personal experience.

[QUOTE=bennybronx;506794]If bullying was a good thing, you wouldnt have a whole load of teen suicides every year because of bullying.

20 people a year kill themselves because of bullying (http://www.coastkid.org/si-sob.html is my reference, it actually says "15-25", so i went for the median), that's 0.00000000296% of the world, REALLY small.

you wouldnt have campaigns aiming to stop bullying etc. . . .

These campaigns are a problem for three reasons.

1. They're a waste of money, as they don't actually accomplish that much
2. They're a waste of time, as said above, they don't do that much.
3. They're part of the reasons why more people are effected negatively, and less positively.
The reason in the simple psychological 'placebo' effect.
Bullying has a bad reputation, people (like you) often belive that bullying is more likely to have bad effects than good ones, ergo, bullied people will think that because of their bullying, they have been 'scarred' or whatever, and because they think that they have, they have (If that makes sense to you).

How do you know? where YOU inside THEIR heads? :P

He never said he was.

[left footed mofo]

The key word there being "seemed". Of all the people they know, do you really think they would confess to you that your bullying had hurt them and affected them negatively?

Yes, yes i do. Well most of them, they weren't scared of me, not even the ones who were when i was bullying them, so wouldn't have held back.

That isn't having mental toughness. Mental toughness much more than that.
http://www.potential2success.com/develpomentaltoughness.html

Ok, that site defined mental strength in a bunch of was, i will show how a bully COULD fit those:

-Excel during high stress and pressure situations: Overcome peer-pressure to stop

-Have a mental advantage over competitors: varies a lot case-to-case, but the bully MIGHT be smarter then the target

-Being able to bounce back quickly after a setback: Overcome teacher-induced punishments

-Produce results even when the likelihood of success is low: again, depends on the target

-Be unshakable through most any circumstance: see 1 & 3

The "good" ones?! How can a bully ever be described as "good"?! How can systematically victimising someone be a "good" thing?!

Good at what they do. Although the ethics of it are in-debate, some can do it better then others.

How are broken bones, depression, anxiety, self harm, over-eating and social withdrawal "there and then" things?

Those things are rare and not always the direct result of bullying.
Broken bones, however (depending on the bone and severity of the break) are pretty short-term in comparison to the long-term benefits.

Neither do I. I don't think anyone who hasn't gone on to complete the abused-abuser cycle is happy or better off because they were bullied.

I am, you can argue that i'm in a minority, but i'm still one.

His sample is much better than yours. As far as I can gather your sample consists of your personal experiences. At least bennybronx has looked outside of his little bubble for evidence on bullying and it's effects.

Can i point out that i have as well (I'm aware that it wasn't aimed at me, but it's worth mentioning). I included the effects i had on my targets.

Find me two sources that state that bullying has benefits for the victim and isn't a horrible thing to experience.
There are an abundance of sources that illustrate the awful things people have experienced because of bullys.
http://www.nmha.org/go/information/get-info/children-s-mental-health/bullying-and-gay-youth
http://education.staffordshire.gov.uk/PupilSupport/Anti-Bullying/BullyingEffects/ (http://education.staffordshire.gov.uk/PupilSupport/Anti-Bullying/BullyingEffects/%5D)
Show us some that support the opposite if you are going to preach it with nothing but personal experience in your corner.

Someone else's experience:
http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Have-Gained-From-Being-Bullied/471489
And another one:
http://www.dooyoo.co.uk/discussion/bullying-in-schools/248124/

There are no official surveys/studies to that effect, simply because most governments and organizations have an anti-bullying bias and wouldn't conduct a test that might prove them wrong.

[antimonic]

Well get your friend to make an account and say it him/herself. We have no way of knowing that your friend is even real. (Not that another account would, but we're nice people and don't usually assume multi-accounting)


A lil ott dontcha think? if your trying to disclaim someones evidence by suggestig they dont exist, thats reaching a lil far lol


What did that mean and how was it relevant?

FTW means for the win, need i explain further?

Why are you attacking the other debaters? Do you have no rational argument?
you clearly didnt read what the other guy said to him then,


Ok, back to what i said a few posts ago about not being able to find out how many people have gained. They might not have realized that they gained, i know i didn't for a while. Some of my targets also took a while realizing.

Sincerely doubt that. . . . .im sorry must i provide evidence as to why i must doubt that? lol

Call it unfounded but i don't think you're taking this seriously :rolleyes:

Its a debate? leave emotionality out of it? didnt someone already say that? lol

Were not talking about fighting here, that's a different issue.
You're calling it a ""Be a man" chain"? I just call it "trying to do for others what someone's done for you"

knit picking abit?

We don't care exactly where and when.
By all means say what happened to you/your friends, but don't give statistics that you can't provide proof if.

What statistics? and where is yours to DISPROVE him?

The kid in question would most likely avoid said wall :rolleyes:
Also, a small amount of bullying involves things like this, most bullying is non-physical, and most physical is more minor, like a slight arm-punch here or a shove-over there, not a face-into-a-wall everyday.

avoid said wall? i doubt it would be only ONE WALL lol and shoving someones face in a wall usually requires a hand grabbing the hair or head and shoving it into a wall? not saying thats exactly what happened but usually thats whats involved when you shove somones face into a wall, so the bully must be in contact, and yes lets say face shoving is dodged or eluded, wouldnt YOU an ex bully, think of another way to inflict damage? or should they all be dodged aswell :P

But said mannerisms could be hugely disgusting or otherwise anti-social (As in the case of me and my targets), in such a case, they should change.
and if theyre not? what if its (in my uncitable unreferencable experience) been because of something stupid like being smaller or something else petty?

Ok, calm down, there's no need to get annoyed with the other debaters. i (maybe even we) accept your personal experience.

so much for "No ratonale", wheres yours? instead of addressing his point your talking abou tone lol. ... .also didnt you say he wasnt taking this seriously before? and now he is? try using arguments that can CARRY and arent sentence sensetive haha

20 people a year kill themselves because of bullying (http://www.coastkid.org/si-sob.html is my reference, it actually says "15-25", so i went for the median), that's 0.00000000296% of the world, REALLY small.

are you ignoring all else on this webpage?

"* Between 15 and 25 children every year commit suicide because they are being bullied (there may be more we don't know about, and many more than this attempt it because bullying has made them so unhappy.
* More than a quarter of students get threats of violence whilst at school, and half of these threats have been carried out.
* Attacks on boys accounts for 75% of these incidents.
* Around 10% of children have missed school because of the violence.
* Up to 40% of secondary school students feel that their teachers are unaware of the bullying which goes on.
* About 17% of calls to ChildLine are about bullying. For five years running it's been the most common reason people call
* More 12 year olds call ChildLine about bullying than any other age group"

so what was that someone said about physical violence being a smll fraction of the bullying that occurs? and also, 15- 25 DIE, what about the others who failed, were caught etc. . . ?

The reason in the simple psychological 'placebo' effect.
Bullying has a bad reputation, people (like you) often belive that bullying is more likely to have bad effects than good ones, ergo, bullied people will think that because of their bullying, they have been 'scarred' or whatever, and because they think that they have, they have (If that makes sense to you).

evidence? lol making a broad statement, especially that someone who is being bullied doesnt believe its bad till what, they are told its bad?

and fyi (for your information incase you wanna know what this means and how it adds to this debate lol) thats not a placebo effect you explained, more of an indirect effect. It did the job, just not directly. placebo's are usually things that WILL NOT WORK that do, indicating that theres another huge confounding variable. the bully campaigns work to an extent, regardless of whether its direct or indirect.

now why dont you stop nit picking and start debating properly? Anyone can nit pick like i have done to you its not smart, its not funny, it doesnt make you a good debater it just makes you really anally retentive (which has a knock on effect to people like me, who are naturally anally retentive lol)

You guys go on so much about debating properly yet you havent done so. get to the point already!

[Sapphire]

Yes, yes i do. Well most of them, they weren't scared of me, not even the ones who were when i was bullying them, so wouldn't have held back.Fear isn't what I'm talking about. It goes deeper than that.

Ok, that site defined mental strength in a bunch of was, i will show how a bully COULD fit those:

-Excel during high stress and pressure situations: Overcome peer-pressure to stop

-Have a mental advantage over competitors: varies a lot case-to-case, but the bully MIGHT be smarter then the target

-Being able to bounce back quickly after a setback: Overcome teacher-induced punishments

-Produce results even when the likelihood of success is low: again, depends on the target

-Be unshakable through most any circumstance: see 1 & 3How would they have peer pressure to stop bullying someone? Bullies typically get reinforced by peers for bullying. As such, #1 is void.
Someone who has mental toughness wouldn't use their mental advantage to belittle and humilate other people. So, #2 is void.
It doesn't take strength to sit in detention. It doesn't take strength to pick up litter. Anyone can do those things. Teachers punishments are not things that some people can deal with and others can't. So, #3 is void.
Mental toughness cannot be judged on how someone else reacts to the individual in question. As such, #4 is void.
#5 is void as #1 and #3 aren't valid.

Those things are rare and not always the direct result of bullying.
Broken bones, however (depending on the bone and severity of the break) are pretty short-term in comparison to the long-term benefits.How do you know they are rare? Would that be through your extensive and objective knowledge on this topic? :P
http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/costs.htm#Individual
http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/mentalhealthinfoforall/mentalhealthandgrowingup/18bullyingandemotion.aspx
http://hcd2.bupa.co.uk/fact_sheets/html/child_bullying2.html

I am, you can argue that i'm in a minority, but i'm still one.No, you aren't. You have gone on to complete the abused-abuser cycle and therefore do not fit in with what I was saying.

Can i point out that i have as well (I'm aware that it wasn't aimed at me, but it's worth mentioning). I included the effects i had on my targets.As I have been saying to Inferno, your argument would be stronger if you had something else to back up your statements with.

Someone else's experience:
http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Have-Gained-From-Being-Bullied/471489Inspiring as that was to read, it hasn't showed how the bullying benefited her. It's a narrative of how she is stronger despite of what happened to her.

Now, THAT is an example of someone who has developed mental toughness. Sound much like a bully? Erm, no!
Would a bully have similar thinking patterns? No.

And another one:
http://www.dooyoo.co.uk/discussion/bullying-in-schools/248124/That is hardly a good form of support for your view. The example he gives is weak and he does not support his view properly.

Well get your friend to make an account and say it him/herself. We have no way of knowing that your friend is even real. (Not that another account would, but we're nice people and don't usually assume multi-accounting)If you are going to be this petty, why don't you get some of your victims to create accounts here?

Ok, back to what i said a few posts ago about not being able to find out how many people have gained. They might not have realized that they gained, i know i didn't for a while. Some of my targets also took a while realizing.Stop calling them "targets". They were your victims.


You're calling it a ""Be a man" chain"? I just call it "trying to do for others what someone's done for you"What are you trying to achieve by debating what he called it? The issue should be about the cycle, not what you both call it.

Some facts and statistics that may be of interest are:


Victims feel more isolated from their peers, which can lead to suicide
Victims often retaliate and become violent towards the bullies
60% of grades 7 and 8 male bullies become convicts by age 23
About 50% of all bullies become criminals

[INFERNO]

thats the abstract for the second study, adults were not given narratives, the participant sample was 10-13 year olds?

If you chose to read the entire article (i.e. use Scopus) then you'd notice that it indeed did talk about narratives given to adults. However, seeing as how you only refute me with the abstract, I'm inclined to believe that you did not read it.

It supports what I was saying in the general sense that there are benefits that can be derived from bullying. Once again, read the entire article, not simply the abstract and hope that the abstract gives all of the fine details.

did you even read the findings? or did you just quote a citation in the hope noone would read up on it :D if so, good political skills! :P

Thank you for the unnecessary sarcasm. Yes, I read the entire article, not simply give a random citation. I have to ask though, did you read the entire article or simply the abstract?

If they have replied, upon being asked, that they didn't benefit at all that is reliable. Seeing as they had said it in reference to their own experiences, it cannot be classed as heresay.

And, as I and others have stated, that can all be achieved through better methods. These so called benefits are cancelled out by the fact that they can be gained through other methods without any of the disadvantages.

This source does not support your argument. It does not address effects (positive or negative) of bullying, but rather how personality can influence children's behaviour in certain situations.

I fail to see the evidence of you having actually based this view on anything reliable and valid.
Would you care to find one that actually supports your statements?

If you read the articles, then it actually does state the effects that bullying has on the personality of the children, which in turn is an effect (positive or negative). I've explained above already, that the evidence supports the argument that there can be positive gains from bullying, not only negative ones.

[Sapphire]

If you read the articles, then it actually does state the effects that bullying has on the personality of the children, which in turn is an effect (positive or negative). I've explained above already, that the evidence supports the argument that there can be positive gains from bullying, not only negative ones.
None of my subscriptions or the campus libraries cover the journal this is in and so it is quite impossible for me to find anything other than the abstract. However, the abstract covers the purpose and the main findings of the study which all comment on personality and it's role in different situations. Unless it changes its tune half way through the discussion and go on to how personality is affected by bullying, I still fail to see how it's supportive of your view point.

Care to address some of the points I raised in my previous post to you now?

[INFERNO]

I still fail to see how it's supportive of your view point.

I explained already that the argument I gave when I used the articles was that there are positive possible outcomes from bullying. The evidence backed that up.

Care to address some of the points I raised in my previous post to you now?

I answered all of the questions in the last post, so I am unsure which points you are referring to, unless it is some other obscure post that you are referring to, in which case, I looked for the last two pages and did not find any such post by you. So, what are these so-called unanswered points that you claim to have made? As far as I can tell, the majority of the discussion where you were involved was between left_footed_mofo and others, not me, unless of course you made some reference to me in a post not directed towards me, in which case, I'll sift through the posts once more.

[Sapphire]

Seeing as the abstract is completely different to what you are claiming the article to show, I am going to believe the articles abstract over you. Especially seeing as you have been talking tripe in regards to the "Reactions to bullying and peer victimization" article.If they have replied, upon being asked, that they didn't benefit at all that is reliable. Seeing as they had said it in reference to their own experiences, it cannot be classed as heresay.

And, as I and others have stated, that can all be achieved through better methods. These so called benefits are cancelled out by the fact that they can be gained through other methods without any of the disadvantages.These points were in the very same post as my initial comments about your "Bullying and the Big Five" article which you have even kept in the quote.
How can the so called benefits be valid arguing points if they are cancelled out by the enormous amount of detrimental factors and the fact that they can be obtained from healthier means?

[antimonic]

If you chose to read the entire article (i.e. use Scopus) then you'd notice that it indeed did talk about narratives given to adults. However, seeing as how you only refute me with the abstract, I'm inclined to believe that you did not read it.

All i needed was the abstrct, it shows the participant sample was not including adults, but hey, i geuss ill just continue on and read the thing again, bringing out some quotes that support my cause, ive got afew free minutes anyway :P

It supports what I was saying in the general sense that there are benefits that can be derived from bullying.

no it doesnt lol i havent read anywhere of any noted, referenced, experiemented or concluded benefits, the only time its come up is to say this:

"Bullying is a part of most children’s lives, but unlike other childhood rites of passage,
bullying possesses few redeeming features."

to which it goes on in the next sentance to say:

"Bullying is a part of most children’s lives, but unlike other childhood rites of passage,
bullying possesses few redeeming features. No child should have to live in fear of being bullied,
and for society’s sake if not their own, no child should revel in the abuse they wreak
on other children."

That last bit, hopefully that mofo kid should read that, may knock some sense into the guy, if of course he did "bully" and not just tease a little bit.


This next bit is very interesting, its from the findings pages:

"Bullies, on the other hand, tell stories of bullying that minimize the
negative aVect involved or even put a positive spin on the incident; they felt better and less
guilty for their victims compared to children who scored lower on the bullying index" from the actual article, not the abstract, nw isnt this peculiar? lol

Hope your takin notes mofo kid, this stuff is from peer reviewed, scientific journals, but then again, the governments hiding away all the pro-bullying articles away right? :P

Thank you for the unnecessary sarcasm. Yes, I read the entire article, not simply give a random citation. I have to ask though, did you read the entire article or simply the abstract?


just read the entire article again, still not found anything that supports your claims? Are you absolutely sure you got all those bogus findings from this study and arent making it up? its ok if you have, really, im ok with that :D

"Our goal was to
understand better the vulnerability factors that increase a child’s risk for victimization or
engaging in bullying behaviors."

does that mean that they looked at causal attributes? or possible benefits? they were not the aim of the experiment, therefore its not any of the variables. QED nothing to do with actual research question? again, are you absolutely sure you read it properly? lol

the only thing close to "adults + narratives" i found was "parents + questionnaires" now thats not exacty what you were talking about is it? parents hadthree things to complete, they were:

1)"Parent report of victimization and bullying. Several items asked parents to rate their child’s victimization experiences."

2)"Little Five personality questionnaire(LFPQ; Lynam et al., 2005). The LFPQ is a 62-item personality questionnaire completed by parents regarding their child and is designed to measure the Big Five personality dimensions of Neuroticism, Agreeableness, Conscientiousness, Extraversion, and Openness to Experience in children and adolescents

3)"Perception of peer support scale—Parent version (PPSS-P). The basic item content remained identical to the child version; items were merely rephrased from the perspective of the parent responding about the child. For example, the item “Does anyone in your class ever pick on you at school?” was rephrased “Does anyone in your child’s class ever pick on your child at school?”

. . . . . .i dont see narrative anywhere? and plus, these are parents, aside from confederates, the only other adults involved in the study. so where are your adults who apparently completed narratives? imaginary? :P

If you read the articles, then it actually does state the effects that bullying has on the personality of the children, which in turn is an effect (positive or negative). I've explained above already, that the evidence supports the argument that there can be positive gains from bullying, not only negative ones.

It states effects? if YOU read the article, you would see its a correlational study? and in correlational studies, no causal attributions are made, only correlations? as in, low conscientiousness is linked with high levels of victimisiation? not THIS causes THAT, so yes i did read the articles, and no, it doesnt state the effects bullying has on personality.. . . .so errr.......try again!! lol :yeah:

Tbh, all that was needed was the abstract, its there so you dont have to read the entire article, but hey did so anyway!

[left footed mofo]

Fear isn't what I'm talking about. It goes deeper than that.

Ahite, fair enough.

How would they have peer pressure to stop bullying someone? Bullies typically get reinforced by peers for bullying. As such, #1 is void.

As i said, it's not ALL cases, in some situations, the bullies would be DISCOURAGED, these are the ones i'm talking about.

Someone who has mental toughness wouldn't use their mental advantage to belittle and humilate other people. So, #2 is void.

Are you denying that there are some bullying cases where the bully is smarter than the target?

It doesn't take strength to sit in detention. It doesn't take strength to pick up litter. Anyone can do those things. Teachers punishments are not things that some people can deal with and others can't. So, #3 is void.

If the punishments get too extreme (i got a 'break time ban', i had to stay in the classroom during ALL break times) then it does, but i agree thaq normal, 'low level' punishments wouldn't count

Mental toughness cannot be judged on how someone else reacts to the individual in question. As such, #4 is void.

You're not making allowances for the fact that every bullying case is radically different

#5 is void as #1 and #3 aren't valid.

See above

How do you know they are rare? Would that be through your extensive and objective knowledge on this topic? :P
http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/costs.htm#Individual
http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/mentalhealthinfoforall/mentalhealthandgrowingup/18bullyingandemotion.aspx
http://hcd2.bupa.co.uk/fact_sheets/html/child_bullying2.html

Bombarding the thread with URLs will only help your case up to a point

No, you aren't. You have gone on to complete the abused-abuser cycle and therefore do not fit in with what I was saying.

Ok, my bad, i misread that.
What i have to say is, if someone got bullied, and had gained from it, why wouldn't they complete the cycle? They're just trying to give someone the positive experience that they had.

As I have been saying to Inferno, your argument would be stronger if you had something else to back up your statements with.

Noted, i'll do some research later and get back to you.

Inspiring as that was to read, it hasn't showed how the bullying benefited her. It's a narrative of how she is stronger despite of what happened to her.

Well, i don't know the lady. Why don't you ask her?

Now, THAT is an example of someone who has developed mental toughness. Sound much like a bully? Erm, no!
Would a bully have similar thinking patterns? No.

Like i said, not ALL bullies have mental toughness, just some.

That is hardly a good form of support for your view. The example he gives is weak and he does not support his view properly.

As with above, take it up with him, i didn't write it.

If you are going to be this petty, why don't you get some of your victims to create accounts here?

Do you realize what a weirdo that would make me sound: "Hey, can you make an account on this forum and tell a bunch of random people you're never met about how i bullied you?"

Stop calling them "targets". They were your victims.

I say targets, you say victims, explain how calling them targets is inaccurate.


What are you trying to achieve by debating what he called it? The issue should be about the cycle, not what you both call it.

Ok, fair point

Some facts and statistics that may be of interest are:


Victims feel more isolated from their peers, which can lead to suicide
Victims often retaliate and become violent towards the bullies
60% of grades 7 and 8 male bullies become convicts by age 23
About 50% of all bullies become criminals


1. CAN lead to suicide, i've already given you a statistic of how rare that is
2. I can belive that, but how is it relevant?
3. That's a stupidly specific group
4. Technically, if i go down to road to my nearest supermarket, pick up a chocolate bar and walk off without paying, that makes me a criminal, even though i've done nothing stupidly heinous.

[left footed mofo]

A lil ott dontcha think? if your trying to disclaim someones evidence by suggestig they dont exist, thats reaching a lil far lol

What does 'ott' mean?
I wasn't saying that they didn't exist, i was just saying that they should tell us themselves.

FTW means for the win, need i explain further?

Yes, 'for the win' doesn't seem to mean anything

you clearly didnt read what the other guy said to him then

I'm assuming you mean INFERNO, and no, i didn't

Sincerely doubt that. . . . .im sorry must i provide evidence as to why i must doubt that? lol

Yes, what i said is true

Its a debate? leave emotionality out of it? didnt someone already say that? lol

Says the person who puts 'lol' after everything

knit picking abit?

Yes, a bit

What statistics? and where is yours to DISPROVE him?

'Where is yours'?:lol:

avoid said wall? i doubt it would be only ONE WALL lol and shoving someones face in a wall usually requires a hand grabbing the hair or head and shoving it into a wall? not saying thats exactly what happened but usually thats whats involved when you shove somones face into a wall, so the bully must be in contact, and yes lets say face shoving is dodged or eluded, wouldnt YOU an ex bully, think of another way to inflict damage? or should they all be dodged aswell :P

I understand the mechanics of face-to-walling

As an ex-bully i would have shoved someone's face into a wall in the first place. I usually did verbal/psychological, when i DID do physical, it was little stuff like poking them or bumping into them in the hall

and if theyre not? what if its (in my uncitable unreferencable experience) been because of something stupid like being smaller or something else petty?

Then it's not a mannerism if they're simply small

so much for "No ratonale", wheres yours? instead of addressing his point your talking abou tone lol. ... .also didnt you say he wasnt taking this seriously before? and now he is? try using arguments that can CARRY and arent sentence sensetive haha

Same for you, all you have is a punch of poorly-wirtten attacks on the other debaters that have 'lol', 'haha' or a smiley at the end of each paragraph, and it's for that reason that i'm going to just start ignoring your posts.

are you ignoring all else on this webpage?

No

"* Between 15 and 25 children every year commit suicide because they are being bullied (there may be more we don't know about, and many more than this attempt it because bullying has made them so unhappy.

I clearly read this, as i cited it.
Yes there MAY be more, but oh well, the percentage is still going to be astronomically low.

* More than a quarter of students get threats of violence whilst at school, and half of these threats have been carried out.

This is irrelevant, threatening violence, or even carrying it out, isn't always bullying, seeing as bullying has to be repeated

* Attacks on boys accounts for 75% of these incidents.

So people respect the unwritten rule: "don't hit girls", what's your point?

* Around 10% of children have missed school because of the violence.

I've missed school because of bullying once, it's no huge deal, i didn't miss stupidly much.
The problem comes when kids start doing it regularly, which is more a failing of theirs than anything else.

* Up to 40% of secondary school students feel that their teachers are unaware of the bullying which goes on.

Ok... and?

* About 17% of calls to ChildLine are about bullying. For five years running it's been the most common reason people call

I can belive that

* More 12 year olds call ChildLine about bullying than any other age group"

So?

so what was that someone said about physical violence being a smll fraction of the bullying that occurs? and also, 15- 25 DIE, what about the others who failed, were caught etc. . . ?

Then they didn't die, they're still alive.

evidence? lol making a broad statement, especially that someone who is being bullied doesnt believe its bad till what, they are told its bad?

That's a bit of a misused question mark.
It's not that they have to be told, it's what's fed to them from a very early age.

and fyi (for your information incase you wanna know what this means and how it adds to this debate lol) thats not a placebo effect you explained, more of an indirect effect. It did the job, just not directly. placebo's are usually things that WILL NOT WORK that do, indicating that theres another huge confounding variable. the bully campaigns work to an extent, regardless of whether its direct or indirect.

Everybody knows what FYI means, and no need to get mouthy just because i didn't know what FTW meant
Actually, a placebo is something that works because the person thinks it does, and is often used by doctors.
And this is more a genuine question than a challenge, what effects do these campaigns have?

now why dont you stop nit picking and start debating properly? Anyone can nit pick like i have done to you its not smart, its not funny, it doesnt make you a good debater it just makes you really anally retentive (which has a knock on effect to people like me, who are naturally anally retentive lol)

Why don't I start debating properly? You're the one who's nit picking, and then flaunting the fact that you did as if it's some great accomplishment.

You guys go on so much about debating properly yet you havent done so. get to the point already!

...Right... like you can talk.

[antimonic]

lol touchy touchy! ive never gone on about "how to debate properly" or given any "rules about debating", and laughing isnt really adding emotion, its just laughing but thats another debate for another day. i dont really think you contributed at all in your responce to me, all you did was nit pick and not make any points lol

"there MAY be more, but oh well, the percentage is still going to be astronomically low."

and this is based on? point of the matter is that a load of people are driven to consider or even attempt suicide because of bullying. yeah some survive, but the comment "Then they didn't die, they're still alive." is incredibly cold hearted and really ignorant. so its a good thing that they survived yes, but the fact that they were driven to ATTEMPT suicide meant nothing? i geuss not, it builds character, makes them hard skinned and resiliant to a whole load of other things.

It just sounds like you truly are trying to put a positive spin on bullying to make yourself seem more Self-righteous andas if youve really benefitted the world.

"Bullies, on the other hand, tell stories of bullying that minimize the
negative aVect involved or even put a positive spin on the incident; they felt better and less
guilty for their victims compared to children who scored lower on the bullying index" taken from a peer reviewed journal, the reference is in another post.

another context sensetive quote:

"Bullying is a part of most children’s lives, but unlike other childhood rites of passage,
bullying possesses few redeeming features. No child should have to live in fear of being bullied,
and for society’s sake if not their own, no child should revel in the abuse they wreak
on other children."

same study, this stuff is from peer reviewed, scientific journals, but then again, the governments hiding away all the pro-bullying articles away right?
The fact that people have ATTEMPTED suicide becuase of bullying (and some have succeeded) indicates its severity. and dont turn around and say 25 people out of the entire poulation of people in the world have died, small fraction well of course its a small fraction, not EVERYONE in the world was bullied.

[Perseus]

Point of the matter is that a load of people are driven to consider or even attempt suicide because of bullying. yeah some survive, but the comment "Then they didn't die, they're still alive." is incredibly cold hearted and really ignorant. so its a good thing that they survived yes, but the fact that they were driven to ATTEMPT suicide meant nothing? i geuss not, it builds character, makes them hard skinned and resiliant to a whole load of other things.

It just sounds like you truly are trying to put a positive spin on bullying to make yourself seem more Self-righteous andas if youve really benefitted the world.

"Bullies, on the other hand, tell stories of bullying that minimize the
negative aVect involved or even put a positive spin on the incident; they felt better and less
guilty for their victims compared to children who scored lower on the bullying index" taken from a peer reviewed journal, the reference is in another post.

another context sensetive quote:

"Bullying is a part of most children’s lives, but unlike other childhood rites of passage,
bullying possesses few redeeming features. No child should have to live in fear of being bullied,
and for society’s sake if not their own, no child should revel in the abuse they wreak
on other children."

same study, this stuff is from peer reviewed, scientific journals, but then again, the governments hiding away all the pro-bullying articles away right?
The fact that people have ATTEMPTED suicide becuase of bullying (and some have succeeded) indicates its severity. and dont turn around and say 25 people out of the entire poulation of people in the world have died, small fraction well of course its a small fraction, not EVERYONE in the world was bullied.

I can easily as say that video games, music, etc make you commit suicide, but that doesn't make those things bad.

[Sapphire]

As i said, it's not ALL cases, in some situations, the bullies would be DISCOURAGED, these are the ones i'm talking about.There may be situations were they are discouraged by a couple of peers, but a couple does not equate to peer-pressure. The reinforcement that bullies get is by far the greater social influence they are on the recieving end of.

Are you denying that there are some bullying cases where the bully is smarter than the target?Smarts do not come in to it. A bully may well be smarter than their victim. But, a person who is mentally tough wouldn't use their advantage to humiliate and persecute.

If the punishments get too extreme (i got a 'break time ban', i had to stay in the classroom during ALL break times) then it does, but i agree thaq normal, 'low level' punishments wouldn't countThat's hardly something that some can't deal with bt others can. Everyone put in that situation has to endure it.

You're not making allowances for the fact that every bullying case is radically differentI'm talking about mental toughness and bullies. A bullies mental toughness cannot be judged by how others respond to them. A persons mental toughness can only be judged by how they are in themselves.

Bombarding the thread with URLs will only help your case up to a pointThey show that bullying causes problems like depression and anxiety are not rare and so they help my cause. Shame you haven't got anything solid like that to help yours...

What i have to say is, if someone got bullied, and had gained from it, why wouldn't they complete the cycle? They're just trying to give someone the positive experience that they had.They are also continuing the line of abuse. How can that ever be a good thing?

Well, i don't know the lady. Why don't you ask her?I don't need to, I read her story in her own words.

Like i said, not ALL bullies have mental toughness, just some.And like I keep saying, mental toughness does not include humiliating and abusing other people.

As with above, take it up with him, i didn't write it.No, but you are relying on it to back up your viewpoint. If you are going to do that then you should be sure about what you are using is decent.

I say targets, you say victims, explain how calling them targets is inaccurate.As a bully you victimised people. Calling them targets aids you in distancing yourself from the negative effects that your type of behaviour has on people. It helps you envisage it as being a "good" thing and as beig in the best interests of your victims. They were your victims whether you like it or not.

1. CAN lead to suicide, i've already given you a statistic of how rare that is
2. I can belive that, but how is it relevant?
3. That's a stupidly specific group
4. Technically, if i go down to road to my nearest supermarket, pick up a chocolate bar and walk off without paying, that makes me a criminal, even though i've done nothing stupidly heinous.They are all valid statistics that show real life results of bullying.
Take the people that commit suicide because of bullying for example, there are going to be many more that attempt suicide, regularly self harm etc. Just because 20 people from one age group are successful doesn't mean that the problem isn't real or serious.

To state that these people and these statistics are irrelevant because they are "rare" or to do with a specific group of people only goes to further illustrate your insensitivity and unwillingness to accept that you have done bad things.

Datrooper, there is a huge difference between a widely supported claim (through professional literature, personal experience etc) that bullying causes suicides and suicide attempts and making a wishy washy, unsupported claim that music, video games etc cause suicide.

[Sapphire]

What does 'ott' mean?
I wasn't saying that they didn't exist, i was just saying that they should tell us themselves.OTT = Over The Top.
If you think they should tell us themselves then your victims should also tell us themselves. You can't demand something from someone else but flat out refuse to do it yourself.

Yes, what i said is trueHow can we know that you aren't putting words into their mouths?

Then it's not a mannerism if they're simply smallThat much is obvious. But what I believe antimonic was trying to get at is bullying someone for something they can't control (e.g. height) won't yield them any benefits at all.

Yes there MAY be more, but oh well, the percentage is still going to be astronomically low. May be more? Astronomically low?
What have you based these wild and hugely inaccurate claims on?

This is irrelevant, threatening violence, or even carrying it out, isn't always bullying, seeing as bullying has to be repeatedIt does play a part in bullying (threatening = verbal, actual violence = physical) and I find it hard to believe that out of the kids they're talking about none of them have experienced this type of behaviour on more than one occasion. This is how it's relevant.

I've missed school because of bullying once, it's no huge deal, i didn't miss stupidly much.
The problem comes when kids start doing it regularly, which is more a failing of theirs than anything else.Starting to blame the victims now, are we? Oh, how original and mature.

Ok... and?Showing that it is an underrecognised problem that is allowed to proliferate as a result.

I can belive thatThis shows that it is a huge problem that negatively affects hundreds of children everyday.

Then they didn't die, they're still alive.That is insensitive and grossly ignorant. Yes, they lived. But that does not discredit, belittle or nullify the reasons for their attempt because their pain is still there. Their pain is real and the causes for that pain are real. To say "they didn't die" as if it disqualifies them from being evidence that things like bullying really do damage lives is a gross display of insensitivity and ignorance.

It's not that they have to be told, it's what's fed to them from a very early age.So, what are you saying? That it's wrong for people to be raised believing that causing other people distress and pain is wrong?
People do not believe that being bullied is wrong from some social norm that has been handed down. It's because of the negative effects.
I, for one, wasn't happy that I was picked on even before I was aware of what bullying was in its entirety.

Everybody knows what FYI means, and no need to get mouthy just because i didn't know what FTW meant
Actually, a placebo is something that works because the person thinks it does, and is often used by doctors.A placebo is normally a sugar pill that doesn't bring about any changes in the individual. It's the mind over matter quality of taking a placebo that accounts for any benefits a person may experience.
Antimonic is right, what you were describing wasn't the placebo effect.

And this is more a genuine question than a challenge, what effects do these campaigns have?They raise awareness and give confidence to people that they can stand up to bullies (for themselves or people they witness being bullied). It works to dispel the myth that only those who deserve it get bullied and that bullies are all-powerful.
This is an interesting read as it is specifically about an anti-bullying campaign and its effects http://www.standards.dfes.gov.uk/research/themes/inclusion/WedMar171608022004/?view=printerfriendly

Why don't I start debating properly? You're the one who's nit pickingYou are nit picking too so are in no position to judge anyone else harshly for it.

[left footed mofo]

There may be situations were they are discouraged by a couple of peers, but a couple does not equate to peer-pressure. The reinforcement that bullies get is by far the greater social influence they are on the recieving end of.

Bullies don't ALWAYS get get egged on, i know there were times when people would bully me for bullying someone else

Smarts do not come in to it. A bully may well be smarter than their victim. But, a person who is mentally tough wouldn't use their advantage to humiliate and persecute.

I'm saying they might, but this is rapidly turning circular, so i think we should just agree to disagree on the 'mental strength' front

That's hardly something that some can't deal with bt others can. Everyone put in that situation has to endure it.

As above

I'm talking about mental toughness and bullies. A bullies mental toughness cannot be judged by how others respond to them. A persons mental toughness can only be judged by how they are in themselves.

As above

They show that bullying causes problems like depression and anxiety are not rare and so they help my cause. Shame you haven't got anything solid like that to help yours...

Ok, here we go:
When i was searching i came across studies on the good effects on the bully (beyond any cheap jolly he/she might get off it)
http://www.kimberlyswygert.com/archives/001765.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/564923.stm
And someone arguing the 'toughening up' theroy
http://www2.canada.com/news/standing+bullies/1418791/story.html?id=801242

They are also continuing the line of abuse. How can that ever be a good thing?

That's why this whole debate is about

And like I keep saying, mental toughness does not include humiliating and abusing other people.

As above

No, but you are relying on it to back up your viewpoint. If you are going to do that then you should be sure about what you are using is decent.

it is, you're just being overly critical of evidence on the other side.
If they had written in exactly the same style and tone, but argued your side, you would have accepted it.

As a bully you victimised people. Calling them targets aids you in distancing yourself from the negative effects that your type of behaviour has on people. It helps you envisage it as being a "good" thing and as beig in the best interests of your victims. They were your victims whether you like it or not.

The term 'target' isn't meant to make it seem good, it's meant to make it seem neutral, letting the reader decide for themselves if it's good or bad. I'd be calling them my 'benefactors' or something if i was trying to put a positive spin on it

They are all valid statistics that show real life results of bullying.
Take the people that commit suicide because of bullying for example, there are going to be many more that attempt suicide, regularly self harm etc. Just because 20 people from one age group are successful doesn't mean that the problem isn't real or serious.

It's 20 overall, not from anyone group.
It's real alright, but by saying it's only 20 puts it into perspective because most people would think it's a lot more.

To state that these people and these statistics are irrelevant because they are "rare" or to do with a specific group of people only goes to further illustrate your insensitivity and unwillingness to accept that you have done bad things.

I never called it irrelevant, i just told it to people. I also never localized the suicides to a certain group.
I may be insensitive, and what? It's not really relevant. I'd also like to point out that none of my targets have committed, or even attempted, suicide.

[antimonic]

This is from the third link:

"This is an age-old attitude that has fostered bullying behaviour," says Dr. Meline Kevorkian, executive director of academic review at Nova Southeastern University in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, and author of a number of books on bullying, including the new 101 Facts About Bullying.

"It's important to move beyond that conception and consider the research that shows that children who are continually victimized by bullying become socially withdrawn. The old line about 'whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger,' is untrue," says Kevorkian.

"What bullying does is tear down your self-esteem, make you question your self-worth, and, in some cases, make you want to give up on life. Bullies leave you feeling a loss of control in every aspect in your life, which in turn affects sleep patterns, eating habits, school work, social activity and life in general."

Alex Lluch, author of several books about bullying and parenting, draws a clear distinction between bullying and simple teasing, which he says is likely what celebrities like Witherspoon are referring to.

"The definition of bullying is something that happens repeatedly and over time, and is inclusive of an imbalance of power," Lluch says. "In this sense, teasing, as Reese Witherspoon mentioned, is not the same as bullying. Teasing may cause a child to be annoyed or have hurt feelings, but bullying can involve physical threats and can cause a great deal of fear in children."

Im starting to think you didnt really "bully" your "targets", you just really teased them! lol

now the choice, Dr. Meline Kevorkian or reese witherspoon on how to treat kids. . . . . .hmmmmm...... tough one! lol

"it is, you're just being overly critical of evidence on the other side.
If they had written in exactly the same style and tone, but argued your side, you would have accepted it."

You think its decent, and she's showing you. . . . .its not :D

"I may be insensitive, and what? It's not really relevant."

it is when there are references showing that bullies tend to try and put a positive spin on their actions in order to feel less guilty etc, the quotes where posted earlier, have a gander! (means look, before you ask). so thats how its relevant!

"I'd also like to point out that none of my targets have committed, or even attempted, suicide."

So? thats just YOUR victims, what about others who have tried? care to attack them for being "too weak" or "not really aknowledging the long term benefits" and instead are focusing on the "there and then harms" right? of course thats whats happened :D

[INFERNO]

First off, you can quit with the personal attacks to other users.


just read the entire article again, still not found anything that supports your claims? Are you absolutely sure you got all those bogus findings from this study and arent making it up? its ok if you have, really, im ok with that :D

Bogus findings? The findings are from the same article we are discussing, so explain to me how you can call them bogus? They are in the article, if you read it, you'll find it.


It states effects? if YOU read the article, you would see its a correlational study? and in correlational studies, no causal attributions are made, only correlations? as in, low conscientiousness is linked with high levels of victimisiation? not THIS causes THAT, so yes i did read the articles, and no, it doesnt state the effects bullying has on personality.. . . .so errr.......try again!! lol :yeah:

Funny, I never recall saying it wasn't correlational nor that it was causal. If I did, then show me a quote where I did as apparently you seem convinced that I cannot tell the difference between the two. It doesn't state the effects bullying has on personality? Really? Well then I guess that the title must be a complete lie then:

Bullying and the Big Five: A Study of Childhood Personality and Participant Roles in Bullying Incidents

So how exactly does this article not involve the effect of bullying on personality, I'm rather lost as to how you deduced that?



Tbh, all that was needed was the abstract, its there so you dont have to read the entire article, but hey did so anyway![/QUOTE]

[antimonic]

First off, you can quit with the personal attacks to other users.

Ive not attacked anyone! im merely debating :)

Bogus findings? The findings are from the same article we are discussing, so explain to me how you can call them bogus? They are in the article, if you read it, you'll find it.

Your telling me after all ive written, it hasnt hit you yet? i called them bogus findings because they werent there! lol i could not see them, they where not even mentioned, QED they where not there! lol now, again, are you absolutely sure you read it? perhaps you should read it again and post a quote, perhaps thatd be more useful than just saying "They are in the article, if you read it, you'll find it." when im telling you i dont think so.

Funny, I never recall saying it wasn't correlational nor that it was causal. If I did, then show me a quote where I did as apparently you seem convinced that I cannot tell the difference between the two. It doesn't state the effects bullying has on personality? Really? Well then I guess that the title must be a complete lie then:

Bullying and the Big Five: A Study of Childhood Personality and Participant Roles in Bullying Incidents

So how exactly does this article not involve the effect of bullying on personality, I'm rather lost as to how you deduced that?

Im almost convinced you havent read the studies, otherwise you would know exactly which study im talking about (ill give you a hint, you got the title wrong, it JUST MAY BE the other one lol :yeah:)

[Sapphire]

Bogus findings? The findings are from the same article we are discussing, so explain to me how you can call them bogus? They are in the article, if you read it, you'll find it.Maybe read your own article carefully. I have read it and at no point did they give narratives to adults. The only adults that were involved were the parents of the children in the sample and they, as antimonic quite rightly pointed out, only had three questionnaires to do. You have claimed that this study involved adults giving narratives and this is clearly "bogus".

Funny, I never recall saying it wasn't correlational nor that it was causal. If I did, then show me a quote where I did as apparently you seem convinced that I cannot tell the difference between the two. It doesn't state the effects bullying has on personality? Really? Well then I guess that the title must be a complete lie then:

Bullying and the Big Five: A Study of Childhood Personality and Participant Roles in Bullying Incidents

So how exactly does this article not involve the effect of bullying on personality, I'm rather lost as to how you deduced that?Once again, that study looks at the effect of childrens personalities on their behaviour in bullying situations. In other words, it looks into what characterises an outsider, a child who assits the bully, a child who helps the victim and so on. It does NOT look at the effects of bullying on personality. This is clear from the title and, as if that wasn't enough, the abstract is abundantly clear about what they were investigating.
Once again, your claim that this is supportive of there being benefits to bullying is "bogus".
How can the so called benefits be valid arguing points if they are cancelled out by the enormous amount of detrimental factors and the fact that they can be obtained from healthier means?
Now, would you address this? ^

[left footed mofo]

First off, you can quit with the personal attacks to other users.

I completely agree.
My opinion, someone's trying to wind us up so we'll start slinging mud and they can look like the mature one, don't stoop to that level.

[left footed mofo]

Originally Posted by Sapphire
How can the so called benefits be valid arguing points if they are cancelled out by the enormous amount of detrimental factors and the fact that they can be obtained from healthier means?

Now, would you address this? ^

If i may?
The benefits of bullying can't ALL be gotten other places (let's not get back the the bullying/sport argument again) .
Also, we need an official test, as it were, about this. To my knowledge, most, if not all, research has been into the negatives of bullying, with very little emphasis on the good side. This leaves it to the laymen (such as everyone in this thread, unless anyone would like to own up to being an expert) to try to figure it out for themselves.
If the government/appropriate organizations were willing to conduct a test, and focus on the positives, we could say for sure if they're there, and what they are.

To simplify, you have more proof than we do simply due to a governmental bias, and because of this, you're going to have to take our first-hand experience until someone high up can think outside the box a little.

[RandomChick242]

It really depends on how bad the bullying is, and how the person who's being bullied takes it.

[Sapphire]

I completely agree.
My opinion, someone's trying to wind us up so we'll start slinging mud and they can look like the mature one, don't stoop to that level.
I disagree. Some of the things you have said are far more provocative and insensitive than the comments you are referring to. Just because others are better able to deal with such challenging attitudes than you are does not mean that they are the ones trying to start the fight.

If i may?
The benefits of bullying can't ALL be gotten other places (let's not get back the the bullying/sport argument again) .
Also, we need an official test, as it were, about this. To my knowledge, most, if not all, research has been into the negatives of bullying, with very little emphasis on the good side. This leaves it to the laymen (such as everyone in this thread, unless anyone would like to own up to being an expert) to try to figure it out for themselves.
If the government/appropriate organizations were willing to conduct a test, and focus on the positives, we could say for sure if they're there, and what they are.

To simplify, you have more proof than we do simply due to a governmental bias, and because of this, you're going to have to take our first-hand experience until someone high up can think outside the box a little.This was not posed to you but ok. All the so called positives you have given throughout this thread can be gained through healthier ways.
Ah, the governments covering it all up and preventing this type of research because of bias...I should have seen that you'd pull that old chestnut out again. Well, hate to break it to you, but the government doesn't control or "cover up" research that it disagrees with. The most they can do is restrict funding.
If they did block/cover up research then Milgram, for one, would most probably have been blocked from conducting his ground-breaking research into obedience.

Antimonic has posted evidence from one of Inferno's sources that explains why people who have been bullies are likely to have pro-bullying attitudes and to view bullying as being of benefit to the victims. It really is highly applicable to you.

[antimonic]

Im not attacking anyone, i gave as good as i got. . . . . .STOP BULLYING ME!!!!!!

actually, please do, the short term harm is obvious but i may benefit grossly in the long run :yeah:

[INFERNO]

Ive not attacked anyone! im merely debating :)

Debating is giving the arguments, not saying statements such as:

It just sounds like you truly are trying to put a positive spin on bullying to make yourself seem more Self-righteous andas if youve really benefitted the world.

That last bit, hopefully that mofo kid should read that, may knock some sense into the guy

The second one is more of a snide little remark that is unnecessary. So, quit with the unnecessary snide remarks and other nonsense. Give the arguments and evidence, nothing else is needed.

Im not attacking anyone, i gave as good as i got. . . . . .STOP BULLYING ME!!!!!!

actually, please do, the short term harm is obvious but i may benefit grossly in the long run

This one is just unnecessary sarcasm that contributes absolutely nothing to the debate.


Your telling me after all ive written, it hasnt hit you yet? i called them bogus findings because they werent there! lol i could not see them, they where not even mentioned, QED they where not there! lol now, again, are you absolutely sure you read it? perhaps you should read it again and post a quote, perhaps thatd be more useful than just saying "They are in the article, if you read it, you'll find it." when im telling you i dont think so.

From the Bullying and the Big Five article, page 140, Figure 1. . The victims have a higher level of openness than the outsiders but lower than the pro-bullies and defenders. My argument for there being possible benefits is supported by this, as the increased openness can be linked to (correlation, not causation) the bullying.

As for the second article, see table 1 and table 3. You'll notice that the victims have a higher composite score of openness to new experience, which as far as I can tell, is a good quality. So, for my argument, the bullying can be linked to (correlational once again) to increased openness in victims.

There are the evidence from the two articles supporting my argument.


How can the so called benefits be valid arguing points if they are cancelled out by the enormous amount of detrimental factors and the fact that they can be obtained from healthier means?

They are not canceled out. It's akin to this: 95% of the class passes yet only 5% fail. By your logic, you're ignoring the 5% because they are such a small quantity. The positive effects are indeed outweighed by the negative ones, however, they are not "canceled out" just because there are more negative ones.

And what is the point of them being obtained by healthier means? If they can be obtained by other methods, then there are positive effects simply because there are no or fewer negative effects? There will be the positive effects regardless of the method and regardless of the amount of negative effects.

[Perseus]

Sapphire, are you saying if you commit suicide because of bullying its bad, but nothing else it isn't? I did not understand your post that well because that is what I interperted(?).

[antimonic]

"Well get your friend to make an account and say it him/herself. We have no way of knowing that your friend is even real. (Not that another account would, but we're nice people and don't usually assume multi-accounting)"

So when he suggests it, its a perfectly feasible solution, it eliminates the possibility that his resources dont exist (and that part in brackets is unecessary and irrelevant to the debate).

But wait, when it comes to the same suggestion being put forward to him, this comes up:

"Do you realize what a weirdo that would make me sound: "Hey, can you make an account on this forum and tell a bunch of random people you're never met about how i bullied you?"

Double standards, unfair suggestions (as they must only be carried out by he opposition as proof of resources, but whe suggested back, he would "look stupid"..........................good debating skills?

ANOTHER example

"Why are you attacking the other debaters? Do you have no rational argument?"

criticising evidence which is EXACTLY AS VALID as your own, the benny makes a point of this. Instead of readdressing, the condescending and insulting "do you have no rational argument?" comes out. uneccessary, unneeded, not answering any questions, and finally doesnt really contribute to the debate. . . . . . . . . .i see a pattern emerging here

"The kid in question would most likely avoid said wall :rolleyes:"

Condescending, patronising, insulting, dont dish it out if you turn into a little girl as soon as it comes back, some bully you must have been lol

"It supports what I was saying in the general sense that there are benefits that can be derived from bullying. Once again, read the entire article, not simply the abstract and hope that the abstract gives all of the fine details."

Patronising a tad bit?

"Bombarding the thread with URLs will only help your case up to a point"

So not providing evidence is bad, but then providing evidence is also bad? sounds like YOU are trying to piss HER off.

"Well, i don't know the lady. Why don't you ask her?"

necessary? no its rude, patronising, the usual tbh

you guys speak like this and then bitch when someone "isnt debating properly" well why dont you take a lesson from your own preaching? ive never once moaned or complained or bitched about what you guys have been like. . . .. .so grow up?

And just get to the point, i may nit pick in my posts - as retaliation - and be a real prat about things, but i ALWAYS have a point and contribution to the discussion/debate. . . . . .so try focus on that if your getting so pissy with everything else.

Datrooper what she's saying is (i assume) is that saying video games and music cause people to attempt suicide, and proving that they do are two diffrent things.

"From the Bullying and the Big Five article, page 140, Figure 1. . The victims have a higher level of openness than the outsiders but lower than the pro-bullies and defenders. My argument for there being possible benefits is supported by this, as the increased openness can be linked to (correlation, not causation) the bullying."

Ive never addressed this article, nor have i even mentioned it, ive spoken about the second article and what you claimed to be the findings from it, so lets stick with that for now, take up the first article stuff with saphire.

Ok, this is what inferno originally stated:

"when adults who previously bullied children were given narratives of a victim and the bully, the adult bullies were more forgiving and indicated that they were more sympathetic due to acknowledging that what they had committed before was wrong. They also indicated that some (not all) of the bullied victims can have a higher conscientiousness, however, the majority gets a lower conscientiousness."

You still havent shown any proof of this, you posted the study, i read it (ive posted quotations from the study previously as proof) and havent found these, you repeated that they where in there, and this is what you have finally said on the matter:

"As for the second article, see table 1 and table 3. You'll notice that the victims have a higher composite score of openness to new experience, which as far as I can tell, is a good quality. So, for my argument, the bullying can be linked to (correlational once again) to increased openness in victims."

This doesnt comply with your original statement of what this study showed, you are avoiding my question and have now dug out a statistic comparing victims with bullies, perhaps children who where not bullied have a higher openness to new experience? all that can be deduced is that victims are more likely to try new experience then the bullies.

Also, because its a correlation (as you have aggreed), it cant be concluded or even shown that they are both linked.

So that doesnt really help your argument, sorry!

[Sapphire]

From the Bullying and the Big Five article, page 140, Figure 1. . The victims have a higher level of openness than the outsiders but lower than the pro-bullies and defenders. My argument for there being possible benefits is supported by this, as the increased openness can be linked to (correlation, not causation) the bullying.It doesn't display a benefit to actually being on the receiving end of bullying behaviours. It shows that out of all four groups the pro-bullies and the defenders of the bullied are the most open to new experiences.
Hardly a good piece of support for your statement.

As for the second article, see table 1 and table 3. You'll notice that the victims have a higher composite score of openness to new experience, which as far as I can tell, is a good quality. So, for my argument, the bullying can be linked to (correlational once again) to increased openness in victims.Once again, that doesn't support your claim that bullying has benefits as it cannot be concluded to be the result of the bullying.
Also, table 3 doesn't show an increased openness in victims as it displays the levels of physiological responses from both groups (bullies and victims) to the different narratives.

They are not canceled out. It's akin to this: 95% of the class passes yet only 5% fail. By your logic, you're ignoring the 5% because they are such a small quantity. The positive effects are indeed outweighed by the negative ones, however, they are not "canceled out" just because there are more negative ones.That isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying that the vastness and severity of the negatives cancels out the so called benefits.
How can someone be more open to new experiences AND socially withdrawn? How can someone gain mental toughness from being bullied but then go on to bully others?

And what is the point of them being obtained by healthier means? If they can be obtained by other methods, then there are positive effects simply because there are no or fewer negative effects? There will be the positive effects regardless of the method and regardless of the amount of negative effects.An activity which yields benefits and no harm is obviously better for people than an activity which yields huge amounts of damage and only a little bit of good that only a few will experience. That is my point.

Sapphire, are you saying if you commit suicide because of bullying its bad, but nothing else it isn't? I did not understand your post that well because that is what I interperted(?).
I have never said that. With the below quote I was pointing out how the claim that bullying causes suicides and suicide attempts is a strong one. I also pointed out that your attempt to disprove (maybe?) or at least argue against that claim is weak. Your attempt is weak because there is no proof at all that music, video games etc cause suicide. There is, however, proof that bullying has led to suicide and suicide attempts.Datrooper, there is a huge difference between a widely supported claim (through professional literature, personal experience etc) that bullying causes suicides and suicide attempts and making a wishy washy, unsupported claim that music, video games etc cause suicide.

[left footed mofo]

This was not posed to you but ok. All the so called positives you have given throughout this thread can be gained through healthier ways.

Bullying, regardless of your/my opinion of it, isn't going away... ever, so one advantage that bullying has, is it prepares you for further bullying, which isn't stupidly unlikely.

Ah, the governments covering it all up and preventing this type of research because of bias...I should have seen that you'd pull that old chestnut out again. Well, hate to break it to you, but the government doesn't control or "cover up" research that it disagrees with. The most they can do is restrict funding.
If they did block/cover up research then Milgram, for one, would most probably have been blocked from conducting his ground-breaking research into obedience.

I never said they covered up the research, they just never did it
I have no idea who/what Milgarm is/was.

[Reality]

Bullying, regardless of your/my opinion of it, isn't going away... ever, so one advantage that bullying has, is it prepares you for further bullying, which isn't stupidly unlikely.
That isn't an advantage at all. That's doing something bad to be prepared for something worse, when we should be getting rid of both what's bad and worse, or at least trying to prevent it.

No, bullying is never going away, and will probably always exist, but it's good to prevent and stop it as much as possible.

[Perseus]

This does not fully support my claim; however, it does state that people have commited suicide over heavy metal. (http://www.queendom.com/articles/articles.htm?a=42)
As you read, it says that they aren't sure whether or not it was of that, but people still have commited suicide over music. Yes, it was not proven, but none the less, they did it because of the music.

[INFERNO]

It doesn't display a benefit to actually being on the receiving end of bullying behaviours. It shows that out of all four groups the pro-bullies and the defenders of the bullied are the most open to new experiences.
Hardly a good piece of support for your statement.

It can be argued to be shown to support a view that it does indeed lead to benefits.


Once again, that doesn't support your claim that bullying has benefits as it cannot be concluded to be the result of the bullying.
Also, table 3 doesn't show an increased openness in victims as it displays the levels of physiological responses from both groups (bullies and victims) to the different narratives.

True, it cannot be concluded as causation. However, the same thing can be said for the negative views of bullying.


That isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying that the vastness and severity of the negatives cancels out the so called benefits.

What you said then and now is the same as the analogy I gave: 95% leads to bad, 5% leads to good. Overall, there is more bad, however, you cannot simply cancel out the good because of there being more bad.


How can someone be more open to new experiences AND socially withdrawn?

You're assuming that both of these would occur to the same person, which is a rather large assumption on your part. Three people can be bullied, 1 has both of those, 1 has social withdrawl and 1 is open to new experiences.

How can someone gain mental toughness from being bullied but then go on to bully others?

People tend to want to get ahead of others, get the upper-hand, show domination, etc..., so they end up bullying. Having mental toughness does not automatically negate bullying. CLICKIE HERE (http://www.bharatiyahockey.org/gurukul/class12.htm). With mental toughness, higher self-esteem does occur, as do various other results, however, explain to me why you believe that this will in effect negate bullying down the road?


An activity which yields benefits and no harm is obviously better for people than an activity which yields huge amounts of damage and only a little bit of good that only a few will experience. That is my point.

I agree with that, however, you initially stated:

How can the so called benefits be valid arguing points if they are cancelled out by the enormous amount of detrimental factors and the fact that they can be obtained from healthier means?

So, what exactly is the argument (for the bold)? Something that leads to more positive and less negative effects is indeed good, no question there, however, I don't exactly see how obtaining the positive effects through other means makes the positive effects invalid arguing points.

left_footed_mofo: The Miligram Experiment (extremely famous one in social psychology) is HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment).

[Sapphire]

This does not fully support my claim; however, it does state that people have commited suicide over heavy metal. (http://www.queendom.com/articles/articles.htm?a=42)
As you read, it says that they aren't sure whether or not it was of that, but people still have commited suicide over music. Yes, it was not proven, but none the less, they did it because of the music.The people left after a loved one has commited suicide have many unanswered questions. One of these being "Why did they do it?". So far you have shown me instances of parents who were looking for reasons and latching onto music.
Until you can show me cases where they know for a fact that music has lead people to commit suicide your argument is very, very weak.

It can be argued to be shown to support a view that it does indeed lead to benefits.Hardly. At a stretch it could be used to support personal benefits to siding with the bully or defending the victim. But that is at a stretch.

True, it cannot be concluded as causation. However, the same thing can be said for the negative views of bullying.Convenient how you are avoiding facing the fact that its been proved that you twisted even more evidence to try and use it in your favour.

Anyway, the negative sides of being bullied are actually well documented.
There is bullying and bullying (by Van der Wal (2005) found in European Journal of Pediatrics. Vol. 164 Issue 2.) shows that being bullied leads to depression and suicidal ideation.
Chapters 5, 6 & 7 of Bullying and Emotional Abuse in the Workplace (by Ståle Einarsen and Helge Hoel) are solely concerned with how bullying effects people which include depression.
Chapters 5, 6 & 7 of Bullying and Emotional Abuse in the Workplace (by Ståle Einarsen, Helge Hoel, Dieter Zapf and Cary Lynn Cooper) are solely concerned with the effects of bullying on people which include PTSD.

What you said then and now is the same as the analogy I gave: 95% leads to bad, 5% leads to good. Overall, there is more bad, however, you cannot simply cancel out the good because of there being more bad.When judging whether something is generally good or bad, it is acceptable to state that it is good/bad based on an extreme majority. Therefore when I say that bullying is bad because the damage is greater than the benefits it is reasonably valid.

You're assuming that both of these would occur to the same person, which is a rather large assumption on your part. Three people can be bullied, 1 has both of those, 1 has social withdrawl and 1 is open to new experiences.It's not as large as your assumption that openness is a result of bullying.

People tend to want to get ahead of others, get the upper-hand, show domination, etc..., so they end up bullying. Having mental toughness does not automatically negate bullying. CLICKIE HERE (http://www.bharatiyahockey.org/gurukul/class12.htm). With mental toughness, higher self-esteem does occur, as do various other results, however, explain to me why you believe that this will in effect negate bullying down the road?Someone with mental toughness do not systematically victimise people. A bully does not have control over their negative emotions. If they did then they would be able to deal with their problems without systematically victimising people. To have mental toughness, you need to have control over both positive and negative emotions.

I agree with that, however, you initially stated:

So, what exactly is the argument (for the bold)? Something that leads to more positive and less negative effects is indeed good, no question there, however, I don't exactly see how obtaining the positive effects through other means makes the positive effects invalid arguing points.The nature of the damage that bullying causes means that for positives of the experience to come close to being valid arguing points they would have to be unique to bullying. As they aren't, the argument for bullying on the points outlined in this thread is null and void.

[Perseus]

I do not have anything to support my claim ebause it is hard to find. So, I am going to back down from this debate. But all I was doing was trying to show y'all that other things can make people do suicide besides bullying.

[Sapphire]

But all I was doing was trying to show y'all that other things can make people do suicide besides bullying.
We knew that already.

[Perseus]

But, you were acting as though msuic has never made people do suicide or any other thing has causes people do suicide, when, all though not proven, other thigns have.

[Sapphire]

But, you were acting as though msuic has never made people do suicide or any other thing has causes people do suicide, when, all though not proven, other thigns have.There are no cases (that I am aware of) that have stated that music has lead a person to kill themselves. This is the point I'm arguing as this was the point you made.

I never said anything about other causes of suicide as this thread is about bullying, not the reasons kill themselves.

[alphabeta]

I agree with TheOperaGhost on the first page of this. I honestly think bullying can help and destroy people's lives. Although it comes to a price of getting hurt physically, mentally, or emotionally, the first can become stronger from it. The consequence sometimes is that the person might feel that pain for a long time.

[Perseus]

I will say this, though. Some kids are stupid enough to believe lyrics that say stuff fuck this world, Im gonan kill my self etc..
Kids are gullable to do stuff that a songs says, in fact here's a link about what I'm talking about. Click this (http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/31199/the_effects_of_violent_music_on_teens.html?cat=33)
This is sort of going off topic though.

[antimonic]

Did someone really say bullying was the only thing that caused suicides? if so LOL

[Sapphire]

I will say this, though. Some kids are stupid enough to beliee lyrics that ay stuff fuck this world, Im gonan kill my slef etc..
Kids are gullable to do stuff that a songs says, in fact here's a link about what I'm talking about. Click this (http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/31199/the_effects_of_violent_music_on_teens.html?cat=33)
This is sort of going off topic though.
Again, this doesn't support your view. As Eminem is quoted in that saying, musicians and songwriters write about feelings they experience and not things that they do. A lot of songs are descriptive rather than instructive.
Music brings enjoyment, appreciation and expression to the masses and has been around for as long as humans have. As such, you are going to have songs which cover every aspect of human emotion, but that does not mean that the writers/musicians are telling people to copy the actions described in the songs.
Evanescence's song Tourniquet is an example of this as the voice of the song belongs to someone who's committing suicide and pondering as to whether she will be united with God or if He'll deny her. People who are depressed/suicidal will be able to relate with this song but those who aren't/haven't been in that situation won't.

[Perseus]

I know it doesn't support my claim, I forgot to say that. I was showing how some kids are gullable enough to do that sort of stuff.

[Sapphire]

I know it doesn't support my claim, I forgot to say that. I was showing how some kids are gullable enough to do that sort of stuff.
If song lyrics are descriptive rather than instructive it surely isn't a case of being gullible or coerced by those that created the song, rather a case of looking for something/someone to blame other than the perpetrator.

[left footed mofo]

That isn't an advantage at all. That's doing something bad to be prepared for something worse, when we should be getting rid of both what's bad and worse, or at least trying to prevent it.

Seeing as no one's ever going to get rid of it, people should learn to accept it.

No, bullying is never going away, and will probably always exist, but it's good to prevent and stop it as much as possible.

As i said:

Also you can’t ‘beat Bullying’. Bullying is not an animal that can be hunted into extinction, a gene that can be eliminated by generations of selective breeding, or some virus that can be isolated and destroyed, it is something some people do, even if you try to beat it, Bullies will adapt, find new ways to Bully, it can be minimised or ignored, not beaten.

[Sapphire]

Seeing as no one's ever going to get rid of it, people should learn to accept it.
No one should have to endure being bullied and the amount of people who do can be reduced through various intervention style methods. We should work on reducing its occurrence as eliminating it is too great a goal at the moment.

[left footed mofo]

No one should have to endure being bullied and the amount of people who do can be reduced through various intervention style methods. We should work on reducing its occurrence as eliminating it is too great a goal at the moment.

It's too great a goal EVER.
If you disagree, give me one logical way that bullying can ever be truly 'beaten'

[Sapphire]

Part of beating something involves reducing its occurrence.

[left footed mofo]

Part of beating something involves reducing its occurrence.

You CAN reduce it, but 'beating' it means eliminating it completely, which is miles off possible.

NOTE TO ANYONE WHO WAS IN THE 'DO YOU BELIVE IN CYBERBULLYING' THREAD WITH ME:

I'm leaving that thread, there's no point in being involved in two bullying debates at once.

[Sapphire]

You CAN reduce it, but 'beating' it means eliminating it completely, which is miles off possible.The first step to eliminating anything is to reduce it.

NOTE TO ANYONE WHO WAS IN THE 'DO YOU BELIVE IN CYBERBULLYING' THREAD WITH ME:

I'm leaving that thread, there's no point in being involved in two bullying debates at once.
Ah, that'll be due to the complete pwnage then ;)

[left footed mofo]

The first step to eliminating anything is to reduce it.

But you're ignoring what i'm saying "BULLYING WILL NEVER BE COMPLETELY BEATEN"

Ah, that'll be due to the complete pwnage then ;)

What pwnage?
Is there something i've neglected to read?

[Skeln]

"BULLYING WILL NEVER BE COMPLETELY BEATEN"
I agree. It's just something that's programmed into all people, to survive and to do your best. Some just handle it differently based on what their strong points are. Some feel no guilt and are tough, so they bully. Others have intelligence, so they use it to it's fullest. All humans strive to be better and to be top dog, some just do it differently than others.

[left footed mofo]

Just so i know:
Who repped one of my posts in this thread as "I think its disgusting that you were bullied and are now a bully, your causing more harm then good. you should be ashamed. if i ever met someone like you i'd kick their ass"?
And who repped an older one "Don't be dumb"
Just wanna know

[Reality]

"BULLYING WILL NEVER BE COMPLETELY BEATEN"
Bullying can't be 100% eliminated, I don't think anyone's arrogant enough to actually think that.

But it should be stopped as much as possible, I mean, are you saying we shouldn't even try to prevent it? Or punish those caught doing it? Just because it can never be beaten?

Using that logic, we shouldn't do anything about crime or disease. Because it can never actually be beaten. >_>

I agree. It's just something that's programmed into all people, to survive and to do your best. Some just handle it differently based on what their strong points are. Some feel no guilt and are tough, so they bully. Others have intelligence, so they use it to it's fullest. All humans strive to be better and to be top dog, some just do it differently than others.
Nothing is "programmed into all people" like that. People who bully are often bigger/stronger/in groups, so they pick on others simply because they can, and other reasons.

What you're saying still doesn't actually justify bullying. Enough with the social darwinism.

[antimonic]

Just so i know:
Who repped one of my posts in this thread as "I think its disgusting that you were bullied and are now a bully, your causing more harm then good. you should be ashamed. if i ever met someone like you i'd kick their ass"?
And who repped an older one "Don't be dumb"
Just wanna know

Lol hahahha, fact that it was "ass" and not "arse" indicated it wasnt a brit, rules me out! and "dumb" is a word i havent used since primary school.

Wouldnt rule out the accuracy of the rep though :P

[theOperaGhost]

Just so i know:
Who repped one of my posts in this thread as "I think its disgusting that you were bullied and are now a bully, your causing more harm then good. you should be ashamed. if i ever met someone like you i'd kick their ass"?
And who repped an older one "Don't be dumb"
Just wanna know

People do not HAVE to say if they repped you positively or negatively. It would be better if they did, but most don't. If you have a problem or think you have been repped wrongly or someone is abusing the system, PM an administrator and they will get it worked out. Generally people don't sign when they give negative rep because most people give revenge rep, which is just stupid.

[left footed mofo]

People do not HAVE to say if they repped you positively or negatively. It would be better if they did, but most don't. If you have a problem or think you have been repped wrongly or someone is abusing the system, PM an administrator and they will get it worked out. Generally people don't sign when they give negative rep because most people give revenge rep, which is just stupid.

I don't think that getting a mod involved is necessary, some idiot's just venting. I do however think it's cowardly to rep and not admit it, the only reason i've repped people without signing is because i thought it was automatic. So if anyone's been repped by someone who didn't sign it, let me know and i'll say if it was me.

[left footed mofo]

Lol hahahha, fact that it was "ass" and not "arse" indicated it wasnt a brit, rules me out! and "dumb" is a word i havent used since primary school.

Wouldnt rule out the accuracy of the rep though :P

I had a suspition that it was you, one or both, i don't know, but i knew it was the work of someone just looking for aggro.
You trying to prove it wasn't you just proves that it was.

[IfPiratesCouldFly]

Well, it certainly doesn't help society.
It's annoying if anything.
Some people who take it to heart could possibly the ones who's lives are ruined by it, but otherwise, not really a big deal, I was bullied when I was in elementary school, I don't care too much, I cared then, not to the point of my life being ruined. That's just me though.

[Bobby]

Stay on topic.

[left footed mofo]

Stay on topic.

Just out of interest, what's so heinous about going off topic?

[Reality]

Just out of interest, what's so heinous about going off topic?
I suppose because the point of the topic is to actually talk about the topic itself?
Also, it's the forum rules to stay on topic, so yeah.

[brain_rocket_science]

[left footed mofo]

Well, it certainly doesn't help society.
It's annoying if anything.
Some people who take it to heart could possibly the ones who's lives are ruined by it, but otherwise, not really a big deal, I was bullied when I was in elementary school, I don't care too much, I cared then, not to the point of my life being ruined. That's just me though.

Exactly!
People hate it there-and-then but 5 years later, any harm goes away

[Reality]

Exactly!
People hate it there-and-then but 5 years later, any harm goes away
It's not really that simple, though.

People who are severely bullied will still be traumatized after it. They will still be "broken" even 4-5 years after their bullying problem has stopped. And no, severe bullying is not rare at all.

Bullying is a worse problem when you're in secondary/high school, than it is when you're just a little kid in elementary/primary school, because you become 150% more self-aware and self-conscious.

[lamboman43]

Now to on topic: I just came home from school today after getting bullied. I pretty much feel like shit today. I do not feel and better from getting bullied. I feel the complete opposite of better. If you want an example of how bullieing doesn't help, come to my school for a day. We have the worst kids EVER!!!!! They will bully you over anything.

Rant and statement over.

[Sapphire]

Exactly!
People hate it there-and-then but 5 years later, any harm goes away
Are you qualified to make such a broad, sweeping and incorrect statement?

I haven't been bullied or abused for about 3 years now.
My self esteem and self confidence isn't anywhere near what they would have been had I not been bullied and abused.

I am fighting these effects but I wouldn't have to if I hadn't been bullied and abused.

[lamboman43]

Are you qualified to make such a broad, sweeping and incorrect statement?

I haven't been bullied or abused for about 3 years now.
My self esteem and self confidence isn't anywhere near what they would have been had I not been bullied and abused.

I am fighting these effects but I wouldn't have to if I hadn't been bullied and abused.

Thats how I feel. I was pretty badly bullied in 5th grade and it really has affected me. I really am not a fan of people ever since then. I handle things much more sensitively now more than ever. If I wasn't bullied then i would probably handle things much more casually now.

[left footed mofo]

I've just discovered the 'multi-quote' button, quite useful really.

It's not really that simple, though.

People who are severely bullied will still be traumatized after it. They will still be "broken" even 4-5 years after their bullying problem has stopped. And no, severe bullying is not rare at all.

I don't refer to everything on your side of the argument as rare, just school massacres and suicides.

Bullying is a worse problem when you're in secondary/high school, than it is when you're just a little kid in elementary/primary school, because you become 150% more self-aware and self-conscious.

I'm 15 so i know about 2ndary school bullying, one time my 'best friend' got 70% to royally bully me for about 6 months (I've become friends with 100% of the bullies afterwards though), so trust me, i know. But the way i handled it, was i treated the bullies as friends, belive it or not, it worked.

Now to on topic: I just came home from school today after getting bullied. I pretty much feel like shit today. I do not feel and better from getting bullied. I feel the complete opposite of better. If you want an example of how bullieing doesn't help, come to my school for a day. We have the worst kids EVER!!!!! They will bully you over anything.

Rant and statement over.

As i said though, you feel pretty crappy now, but wait until it's all over, you'll be better for it.
It's like the way muscle-building works, when you exercise, you tear the muscle, which probably hurts slightly/a lot, depending on how hard you're exercising, but when it's all over, the muscle is bigger and stronger.
However, you can exercise TOO much, bullying, like exercise and anything else, is good in moderation.

Thats how I feel. I was pretty badly bullied in 5th grade and it really has affected me. I really am not a fan of people ever since then. I handle things much more sensitively now more than ever. If I wasn't bullied then i would probably handle things much more casually now.

Do you think that could be the benefit, you're more careful in life and less careless

[lamboman43]

I've just discovered the 'multi-quote' button, quite useful really.



I don't refer to everything on your side of the argument as rare, just school massacres and suicides.



I'm 15 so i know about 2ndary school bullying, one time my 'best friend' got 70% to royally bully me for about 6 months (I've become friends with 100% of the bullies afterwards though), so trust me, i know. But the way i handled it, was i treated the bullies as friends, belive it or not, it worked.



As i said though, you feel pretty crappy now, but wait until it's all over, you'll be better for it.
It's like the way muscle-building works, when you exercise, you tear the muscle, which probably hurts slightly/a lot, depending on how hard you're exercising, but when it's all over, the muscle is bigger and stronger.
However, you can exercise TOO much, bullying, like exercise and anything else, is good in moderation.



Do you think that could be the benefit, you're more careful in life and less careless

Thats not what I mean't. I mean i take things like jokes too seriously. I am very rarely happy and I pretty much have no sense of humor. You can not make me laugh. You can barely make me smile. I am not a happy person because of what has happened to me. I really just hate going outside because I am afraid of being bullied or beat up.

And you people think that just one kid like this is affected doesn't matter to the general opinion. One person should still matter.

[Reality]

I don't refer to everything on your side of the argument as rare, just school massacres and suicides.
Yes. But you haven't debunked my point.

I'm 15 so i know about 2ndary school bullying, one time my 'best friend' got 70% to royally bully me for about 6 months (I've become friends with 100% of the bullies afterwards though), so trust me, i know. But the way i handled it, was i treated the bullies as friends, belive it or not, it worked.
The way I see it. If being bullied is part of initiation to become friends with certain people. I say fuck it, I don't need people like that in my life. Have you thought of, that if you didn't treat them that way, they would probably have spat on you by now?



As i said though, you feel pretty crappy now, but wait until it's all over, you'll be better for it.
It's like the way muscle-building works, when you exercise, you tear the muscle, which probably hurts slightly/a lot, depending on how hard you're exercising, but when it's all over, the muscle is bigger and stronger.
However, you can exercise TOO much, bullying, like exercise and anything else, is good in moderation.
Say that to the many people who are traumatized by bullies. Only a small percentage actually "benefits" the way you did.

Bullying is a form of abuse, not exercize, not training, and definitely not help.

Do you think that could be the benefit, you're more careful in life and less careless
Being socially withdrawn and such is a benefit? Really?

[lamboman43]

As i said though, you feel pretty crappy now, but wait until it's all over, you'll be better for it.
It's like the way muscle-building works, when you exercise, you tear the muscle, which probably hurts slightly/a lot, depending on how hard you're exercising, but when it's all over, the muscle is bigger and stronger.
However, you can exercise TOO much, bullying, like exercise and anything else, is good in moderation.





You make it sound as though we should be bullied to hell just to feel better later on.

[INFERNO]

Exactly!
People hate it there-and-then but 5 years later, any harm goes away

Really? I think you'll find a mob of people, especially doctors and researchers ready to disagree with you.

I'm 15 so i know about 2ndary school bullying, one time my 'best friend' got 70% to royally bully me for about 6 months (I've become friends with 100% of the bullies afterwards though), so trust me, i know. But the way i handled it, was i treated the bullies as friends, belive it or not, it worked.

So because you dealt with a bully, then you "know"? What worked for you may not work for others, or it may work. However, I have to ask you, had the person not bullied you, then would've you still become friends?

Now to on topic: I just came home from school today after getting bullied. I pretty much feel like shit today. I do not feel and better from getting bullied. I feel the complete opposite of better. If you want an example of how bullieing doesn't help, come to my school for a day. We have the worst kids EVER!!!!! They will bully you over anything.

:lol::lol:, how often I heard this from other people, claiming that they're school and then their life is soooo horrible. You'll learn in life that you'll get bullied over anything also, even after high school, college or university. Will you always feel better after being bullied? No. Will you always feel worse after being bullied? No, however, most of the time, you'll feel bad.

[left footed mofo]

The way I see it. If being bullied is part of initiation to become friends with certain people. I say fuck it, I don't need people like that in my life. Have you thought of, that if you didn't treat them that way, they would probably have spat on you by now?

It wasn't an 'initiation' i was friends with most of the people involved beforehand, i just had to win them back.

If i hadn't treated them as friends? God knows

You make it sound as though we should be bullied to hell just to feel better later on.

Like i said, everything in moderation

[left footed mofo]

So because you dealt with a bully, then you "know"? What worked for you may not work for others, or it may work. However, I have to ask you, had the person not bullied you, then would've you still become friends?

It may or may not work for other people, i don't know and i don't claim to know.

As far as becoming friends, i was friends with most of the bullies before, i just had to win them back.

Also, just to ask you INFERNO:
What's your overall opinion on this, because i've heard you arguing both sides

[INFERNO]

It may or may not work for other people, i don't know and i don't claim to know.

As far as becoming friends, i was friends with most of the bullies before, i just had to win them back.

Also, just to ask you INFERNO:
What's your overall opinion on this, because i've heard you arguing both sides

Ah, so you were already friends? Well, then that changes your example where you were bullied then made friends and lived happily ever after.

My overall opinion is that for the majority of the bullying, it is bad. However, that being said, I don't feel it is correct to say ALL bullying inherently leads to negative consequences: 3/4 bad, 1/4 good consequences. So, in a sense, I'm still sitting on the fence, just leaning more towards one side with a leg still caught in the fence.

[lamboman43]

Really? I think you'll find a mob of people, especially doctors and researchers ready to disagree with you.



So because you dealt with a bully, then you "know"? What worked for you may not work for others, or it may work. However, I have to ask you, had the person not bullied you, then would've you still become friends?



:lol::lol:, how often I heard this from other people, claiming that they're school and then their life is soooo horrible. You'll learn in life that you'll get bullied over anything also, even after high school, college or university. Will you always feel better after being bullied? No. Will you always feel worse after being bullied? No, however, most of the time, you'll feel bad.

Ok never laugh at my life EVER!!! What the hell is wrong with you?!?!?! That was soooo fucking rude! It is not funny to laugh at me getting bullied. DO NOT EVER LAUGH AT ME LIKE THAT AGAIN!!!!!!!! That just pissed me off. I want to put you in my shoes and see what happens. Just a reminder DO NOT LAUGH AT MY LIFE AGAIN!!!!!!!:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[INFERNO]

Ok never laugh at my life EVER!!! What the hell is wrong with you?!?!?! That was soooo fucking rude! It is not funny to laugh at me getting bullied. DO NOT EVER LAUGH AT ME LIKE THAT AGAIN!!!!!!!! That just pissed me off. I want to put you in my shoes and see what happens. Just a reminder DO NOT LAUGH AT MY LIFE AGAIN!!!!!!!:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Relax, if you want to make it more personal, then PM me. Otherwise, debate the debate.

[Reality]

It wasn't an 'initiation' i was friends with most of the people involved beforehand, i just had to win them back.

If i hadn't treated them as friends? God knows
Exactly. Friends like that aren't worth getting bullied for.
I have had a bestfriend-turned-bully. Would I want to be bullied just to win him back? You bet your ass I don't.

Those sort of friends are actually fakes 9/10 times. If they really liked you, they'd do things the normal and more sociable way.

Like i said, everything in moderation
Define moderation. Where is the line drawn?


Ok never laugh at my life EVER!!! What the hell is wrong with you?!?!?! That was soooo fucking rude! It is not funny to laugh at me getting bullied. DO NOT EVER LAUGH AT ME LIKE THAT AGAIN!!!!!!!! That just pissed me off. I want to put you in my shoes and see what happens. Just a reminder DO NOT LAUGH AT MY LIFE AGAIN!!!!!!!:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
...... Chill out.
INFERNO was merely making a point, and he was probably right.

No, he nor no one else here knows what it's like to be you, but you have to remember some of us here have actually experienced bullying ourselves. I.E. me, I was severely bullied in Year 9 and 10, and still have relapses this year.

[lamboman43]

Exactly. Friends like that aren't worth getting bullied for.
I have had a bestfriend-turned-bully. Would I want to be bullied just to win him back? You bet your ass I don't.

Those sort of friends are actually fakes 9/10 times. If they really liked you, they'd do things the normal and more sociable way.


Define moderation. Where is the line drawn?



...... Chill out.
INFERNO was merely making a point, and he was probably right.

No, he nor no one else here knows what it's like to be you, but you have to remember some of us here have actually experienced bullying ourselves. I.E. me, I was severely bullied in Year 9 and 10, and still have relapses this year.

So have I. I am in therepy because of it. I hate going to school because every day i get bullyed one way or another. Somedays worse than others. Mine may not be as bad as others, but it is NOT right at all to laugh at someone getting bullied no matter how severe or casual it is.

[Reality]

So have I. I am in therepy because of it. I hate going to school because every day i get bullyed one way or another. Somedays worse than others. Mine may not be as bad as others, but it is NOT right at all to laugh at someone getting bullied no matter how severe or casual it is.
I don't think he was actually laughing at you. Moreso downplaying your situation.
And I can relate to that experience.

[lamboman43]

I don't think he was actually laughing at you. Moreso downplaying your situation.
And I can relate to that experience.

Then what were those snickering smilies doing there. If he wasn't laughing then he shouldn't have put them there.

[INFERNO]

Then what were those snickering smilies doing there. If he wasn't laughing then he shouldn't have put them there.

The smilies were simply me finding not your situation of being bullied funny but rather the common thing that I, and you too probably hear all too often of "my life is sooo hard". That is what I was going after, not the fact that you are in therapy or were/are bullied.