Left or Right?

[RunAwayMolly]

Are you wacko liberal? wacko conservative? liberal or conservative but not so wacko? somewhere in between? maybe you just dont give a rats ass... the point is... where do you stand?

[kolte]

meh, I stand for a completly new government type, screw the drab normal.

[[email protected]//]

im a democrat...i dont get what u mean at the top so w.e

[Trademarked]

i really do not understand politics nor get the point of it.
it's all just a really confusing word to me...

[redcar]

mm thats a toughie, i luv the communist theory, cept in reality it just cant work. and capitalist is just not the way. i stand in the middle.

[kolte]

yay theres two fascists lol

[RowanVer.3.0]

Politics are slimey and bug me. They suck. I don't care.

[redcar]

i luv politics, its so interesting.

[serial-thrilla]

mm thats a toughie, i luv the communist theory, cept in reality it just cant work. and capitalist is just not the way. i stand in the middle. ahh communism is the most terrible governement ever, it hurts succesful people.

[redcar]

but everyone is equal, in theory, and everyone is the same, in theory, makes the world a nicer place.

but you are right it does hurt succesful people, and the form of governemnt is wide open corruption.

[WelshLad]

where does liberal come under? there's 3 main parties here Labour (left) Conservative (right) and Liberal Democrats (me)

[serial-thrilla]

but everyone is equal, in theory, and everyone is the same, in theory, makes the world a nicer place.

but you are right it does hurt succesful people, and the form of governemnt is wide open corruption. but then lazy asses could leech off of hard working people

[RunAwayMolly]

where does liberal come under? there's 3 main parties here Labour (left) Conservative (right) and Liberal Democrats (me)

liberal be left

[redcar]

but everyone is equal, in theory, and everyone is the same, in theory, makes the world a nicer place.

but you are right it does hurt succesful people, and the form of governemnt is wide open corruption. but then lazy asses could leech off of hard working people

you could argue that that is the case in capitalist countries, people working hard payibng taxes to fund social welfare. the social welfare being paid to people who are too lazy to do anything but they know that their government will give them all sorts of hand outs.

[Aηdy]

i hate politics and havent got a clue what its all about.

[kolte]

i hate politics and havent got a clue what its all about.

how can you just 'hate politics' we would be in anarchy and all dead, suffering, living like eskimos without government and politics. don't be stupid.

[Glasgow]

I dont really give a shit about politics. I think it is pointless. But i like NDP, if u hear of em

[serial-thrilla]

I dont really give a shit about politics. I think it is pointless. But i like NDP, if u hear of em ewwwwwwww ndp sucks, theyre practically communist

[Cap'nCrunch]

}]I hate politics...I can't stand politicians.
Good job. You are the type of person who is gonna change the world. I suppose you think anarchy will be the end of problems? The world will become one utopian society and we'll all be in perfect, equal harmony? Thats a fool's dream. We need politicians to govern and make wise decisions for mindless idiots.

[tucker92]

there should probably be a choice in the poll for non-political cause alot of people are. im libertarian so im socially liberal and fiscally conservative.

[Dfsg]

I'm as conservative as they come. And I take on any and all debators :P

[beautifullytragic]

communism-equality of condition
capitalism-equality of opportunity :)

[kolte]

}]}]I hate politics...I can't stand politicians.
Good job. You are the type of person who is gonna change the world. I suppose you think anarchy will be the end of problems? The world will become one utopian society and we'll all be in perfect, equal harmony? Thats a fool's dream. We need politicians to govern and make wise decisions for mindless idiots.

This is opinionated you stupid fuck. In the (few) experiences I've had with politicians, I hated them all. Sure, the world would go to hell without politics, but it's already gone to hell anyway. I mean, no one is going to be able to stop all the suicide bombings, the killings, the war. So instead of popping your jaw calling me a mindless idiot, research your facts. Damage has been done, and no politician can change that. And the lot of them are cold stuck-up snobs, so go figure. :D

to answer your insensitive remark I shall give a song, that I live by.

Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

Imagine no possesions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say Im a dreamer,
but Im not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.

[Dfsg]

That's a chilling idea of a world. All that unregimented life breeds chaos...

[kolte]

well, I think that a total reform of government is needed. To be conservitive is to live in the past. Christian morals should not sway political choices as it does so much today in the conservitive party. A total seperation is needed. I am pro choice, and enviornmentalish, and i lean more to a left wing idea of government. but reform is needed, but every time we try to simplify government another 20 commities pop up and another branch of this and that. its out of hand, we need to change this government, were smart people, we can come up with somthing better I think.

[redcar]

but kolte can we truely leave our religious beliefs at the door when it comes to government?

like if i was a politican, i know my faith would tend to guide me on certain issues, like abortion and such.

[Dfsg]

Indeed. Religion is part of who you are. Just as being pro-choice or pro-life is part of who you are. Would you take something that you believe in and make it have no bearing on your opinions? That would be tough to do.

Remember, the Constitution only bans the government from establishing a national church. It says nothing about banning citizens and politicians from having a religious belief.

[boognish]

we arnt saying they have to give up their religion, or never have a religion, we are just saying that religion is the problem, it doesnt allow change. its too strict, and errors in their system have and still harm the world.

seriously, you think being out in the cold at night will get you sick? no it wont, but there was a fear spread by the church that at cold nights evil travels on the road and if you go out on a cold night you would be possesed by a demon...now is that rational? no

[kolte]

we arnt saying they have to give up their religion, or never have a religion, we are just saying that religion is the problem, it doesnt allow change. its too strict, and errors in their system have and still harm the world.

seriously, you think being out in the cold at night will get you sick? no it wont, but there was a fear spread by the church that at cold nights evil travels on the road and if you go out on a cold night you would be possesed by a demon...now is that rational? no

never heard of that second part there. but a agree with the first. its all religon. religon keeps us from moving forward. its holding us back. Its religon thats keeping us from stem cell research a research that could help save millions with diseases.....including me, I have a genetic neuropothy. stem cell reasearch could help me. but because some people are so....stupid, they won't even give it a change. did you know a 16cell morula would suffice as a stemcell doner. that means we could geneticly harvest them, and if you are saing that a morula counts as a baby, you are fucking insane. its a glob of 16 stem cells.

I think that reform is necessary to move forward. a new, better type of government.

it is time for a more diplomatic rule. the united states is know for its old constitution.....OMG thats horrid, were clinging like dogs to a well worn way of running things. ever onehundred years or so laws and governments should reform with modern day society. its just right.

it talks about the right way to buy a slave and whores in the bible, do you by slave and do whores because of it NO.

it talks about cutting your eyes out if you look at women sexually. WTF.

stop living your life by a book written by a thrid party. Jesus didnt write that book. so stop acting like those were the exact things he said. that book was witten years after he died. get a life. quite trippin.

[Dfsg]

Well, don't start quoting Hammurabbi's code as the Bible :P

As for story about going out on Cold nights- My church never taught that. It's just an old middle ages belief supported by middle ages science. We don't believe it anymore. Christians aren't stupid, we change with the times but keep our core beliefs. Over 80% of this country in the 2000 census listed themselves as Judeo-Christian, why should Judeo-Christian values have no place in our government?

Maybe some of the realms of "Progress" we are trying to tap are opening pandora's box. You have to be careful. If progress procedes unchecked, the world becomes an unsafe place.

For example, we'll use the stem cells you suggest. Okay- Doctors get free realm to experiment with them with taxpayer money and cure neuropathy (which may or may not be possible). Now it is available for use through large science labs. Do you think they will, after spending so much money, let you have the treatment for free? It will be incredibly expensive, so much so that only the wealthy will be able to get it. Okay- then people demand that insurance takes care of it. Now your insurance company carries it. Insurance costs rise for every American, so they share the burden of paying your expensive treatment costs. Less money is put into the American pockets slowing down economy, and many companies drop their medical insurance policies for their workers leaving them with no insurance whatsoever.

Sure, it's hypothetical and just my idea of what MIGHT happen, not what WILL happen, but you have to take a look at it from other perspectives.

[kolte]

Well, don't start quoting Hammurabbi's code as the Bible :P

As for story about going out on Cold nights- My church never taught that. It's just an old middle ages belief supported by middle ages science. We don't believe it anymore. Christians aren't stupid, we change with the times but keep our core beliefs. Over 80% of this country in the 2000 census listed themselves as Judeo-Christian, why should Judeo-Christian values have no place in our government?

Maybe some of the realms of "Progress" we are trying to tap are opening pandora's box. You have to be careful. If progress procedes unchecked, the world becomes an unsafe place.

For example, we'll use the stem cells you suggest. Okay- Doctors get free realm to experiment with them with taxpayer money and cure neuropathy (which may or may not be possible). Now it is available for use through large science labs. Do you think they will, after spending so much money, let you have the treatment for free? It will be incredibly expensive, so much so that only the wealthy will be able to get it. Okay- then people demand that insurance takes care of it. Now your insurance company carries it. Insurance costs rise for every American, so they share the burden of paying your expensive treatment costs. Less money is put into the American pockets slowing down economy, and many companies drop their medical insurance policies for their workers leaving them with no insurance whatsoever.

Sure, it's hypothetical and just my idea of what MIGHT happen, not what WILL happen, but you have to take a look at it from other perspectives.

you dirty fucking republicans and you dirty fucking dollar. its not all about fucking money. Its about lives, its about diabetes, and aids, and hepititus, and cancer, and azhtimers, and parkinsons, and Lue Garags, and fucking peoples lifes. You cant look into the fucking eyes of a dying child and tell them

"sorry bitch, but that would raise taxes so I'mma let you die cuz we want the extra two cents"

you greedy fucking bitch. I can fucking believe you, basing your desion to save a life on how heavey the wad of tainted cash is in your pocket. I don't care how much the fucking cost is, thats not the point, its the fact that we can come up with a cure, for all of that, threw genetic sience, and you fat, greedy bastards wont let us.

WHAT WOULD JESUS DO EH

would he say "oh, let the bitch die, don't want taxes go up"

NO

Fuck you, all of you republican bastards are the same, its money. thats it.

fucking hypocryte.....argh

pissed off right now, gerr. *breaths*

yeah, sorry.

[Underage_Thinker]

Hey koler, what do you think republicanism (i know thats not a word) is all about. Cut taxas for the rich cut benifits for the poor. and most importantantly, GET more oil.


P.s. i am liberal

[Dfsg]

Wow, incredibly diverse vocabulary with a smattering of close-minded jargon. Also, you could spell some of the diseases correctly... Koler. If you think that we are days away from curing all disease with stem cells, you are terribly mistakened.

You also can't understand simple economic concepts. I'll explain in simple terms. Stem cell treatment (once it is more widely available)=expensive. If we want all people to be able to get it, it'll have to be covered by insurance. So- Insurance costs go up. High insurance costs take money out of the worker's pocket, so the economy flounders. Several people would probably have to get rid of their health insurance, and then not be able to get stem cells at all. Therefore, only the rich would be able to get it anyway.

It's not an issue of Republican v Democrat. It's an economic issue based on just a liberal pipe dream of a cure-all that doesn't yet exist, and might not even exist. Bush even tried- he was the FIRST president to put any public funds into stem cell research. I don't like that he did this, but there you have a conservative doing something you are cursing them for not doing.

And face this fact- no diseases (save polio and a few others) have been cured, despite over 80 years since the foundation of modern medicine (which I base off of the discovery of penicillin in the 1920s). No matter how many trillions of dollars are pumped into Research and Development, we've come NO WHERE.

This is, unless, you subscribe to the belief that cures have been found and supressed at all costs as they would damage pharmaseutical profits. This is my belief. It is these (in your words) fat greedy explatives that impede your cures. Under this theory, even if stem cell research worked, you wouldn't get rid of your neuropathy. I understand the associated pain of neuropathy, it runs in my family. There is very little to help it. Try some Accupuncture, though. It is having decent success with neuropathy, generally 6 months to a year to reduce it to 10% of the original pain.

[Dfsg]

Hey koler, what do you think republicanism (i know thats not a word) is all about. Cut taxas for the rich cut benifits for the poor. and most importantantly, GET more oil.


P.s. i am liberal

Actually, the plan is to cut taxes for everyone, which puts more money in the average joe's pocket, which is then recirculated into the economy. This make it run better, and Bush's tax cuts DID spur the economy.

Also, as for oil, if you listened to Bush's state of the union address, he wants to move away from our dependance on oil and more to clean coal, solar and wind power, and safe nuclear technology. Although we do still live in an oil dependant society, we are moving away from that. If liberals would stop blocking our attempts to build more clean facilities and remove old oil burning facilities...

In the mean time, thank the Lord for your ability to have oil to make your life as comfortable as it is. You'd probably be dead, or at least dead before 40, without oil. We have enough oil in Alaska, Offshore in the atlantic and gulf coasts, and in the area outlined by the Rand survey to outdrill the Middle East and not depend on those unstable areas for oil. But, once again, liberal extremists refuse to allow domestic drilling... The Rand survey alone has more oil than Saudi Arabia...

[Underage_Thinker]

Ok so cutting taxas have helped the economy? yes i t was a WONDErful idiea to cut taxas, raze spending, and starting a war. All leading to the all time highest defecit that continus to grow. Congrats bush. And as for safe nuclear facilitys. There is no such thing, only safer. *coughfs and points at Three Mile Island*



http://www.lafn.org/politics/gvdc/Natl_Debt_Chart-2004.gif
^^here is what your tax and spending increases did^^

[kolte]

Wow, incredibly diverse vocabulary with a smattering of close-minded jargon. Also, you could spell some of the diseases correctly... Koler. If you think that we are days away from curing all disease with stem cells, you are terribly mistakened.

You also can't understand simple economic concepts. I'll explain in simple terms. Stem cell treatment (once it is more widely available)=expensive. If we want all people to be able to get it, it'll have to be covered by insurance. So- Insurance costs go up. High insurance costs take money out of the worker's pocket, so the economy flounders. Several people would probably have to get rid of their health insurance, and then not be able to get stem cells at all. Therefore, only the rich would be able to get it anyway.

It's not an issue of Republican v Democrat. It's an economic issue based on just a liberal pipe dream of a cure-all that doesn't yet exist, and might not even exist. Bush even tried- he was the FIRST president to put any public funds into stem cell research. I don't like that he did this, but there you have a conservative doing something you are cursing them for not doing.

And face this fact- no diseases (save polio and a few others) have been cured, despite over 80 years since the foundation of modern medicine (which I base off of the discovery of penicillin in the 1920s). No matter how many trillions of dollars are pumped into Research and Development, we've come NO WHERE.

This is, unless, you subscribe to the belief that cures have been found and supressed at all costs as they would damage pharmaseutical profits. This is my belief. It is these (in your words) fat greedy explatives that impede your cures. Under this theory, even if stem cell research worked, you wouldn't get rid of your neuropathy. I understand the associated pain of neuropathy, it runs in my family. There is very little to help it. Try some Accupuncture, though. It is having decent success with neuropathy, generally 6 months to a year to reduce it to 10% of the original pain.

Last I looked, we were having a debate, so don’t attack my character by. “ you also can’t understand simple economic concepts. I’ll explain in simple terms ” I consider this to be an attack of character and really bearing no means to a debate. Its more of a behavioral retaliation, that when one if faced with a question or statement they cannot fully answer or defend, they make the other person look bad. I also think you should back off of my spelling, when you yourself misspelled a handful of words. Mistaken cannot be mistakened? Mistaken is already past tense. Pharmaceutical companies. Not pharmaseutical. Suppressed that two p’s. expletives not explatives. Acupuncture not acc just one c.

Also I think I would rather have the neuropathy then acupuncture. My symptoms are numbness and foot drop, elbow drop etc. Just increased weakness; it leans more to a genetic neuropathy with liability to post palsy pressure.

I hope you’re not under the impression that I’m unintelligent for that unnecessary rant, though I was highly offended, I should not have retaliated in such an out of character manner.

Back to Stem Cell Research; I think that to fully understand were I’m debating from, you need to recognize what Stem Cell’s are, and there history, and future:

“Stem cells are generally very early stage cells that have the ability to turn into other specialised types of cells.
For example a stem cell can turn into liver cells, skin cells , nerve cells etc. These early stage cells can have differing abilities to turn into more specialised cells.”
“There are generally 3 types of stem cells that are important:
• embryonic stem cells
• adult stem cells
• umbilical cord stem cells”
Stem cells are significant for a number of reasons. These include things like:
• Potential therapeutic uses such as:
o cures for diabetes, brain diseases like Parkinson. Treatments for cancer
or Multiple sclerosis (MS)
• Ethical concerns
o Issues of when is a human, misuse.
• Curiosity”

Now, for the United States President George W. Bush and his few on this:
“I agree” < he said that. He agrees with stem cell research. However, Unlike President Bush, the United States Conservative Party and some Democratic Party member’s said “No”, but certain types of adult stem cell harvesting is legal. But really, it helps nothing; we need embryonic stem cells to fully understand them. I’m not asking for a cure tomorrow, but if help fund this research now, we are stepping forward.
It is true about the lack of medical discoveries regarding diseases like these, have been too few and far between, but maybe it’s because we have been looking in the wrong places. Maybe, just maybe our medical future lies in genetics.
To the real debate, Liberals and Conservatives; I’m neither nor, but I would say I favor the liberal point of view more. All depends on the person who is leading. I think that for Canada, the Conservative party was the better pick, in the states, I despise the Conservatives. Why, just like organized religion, it doesn’t allow change.
To survive in the modern world, we have to change. Clinging onto old, unnecessary morals that don’t apply to this era, is not a good leadership, I think the past has shown us this.
Yeah I’m done. Sorry For any rudeness or curdeness.
V
~kolte

[TheWizard]

clap clap :)

[Underage_Thinker]

man koler u have the best way ove saying what needs to be said.

[Dfsg]

A general rule of English is that closly mispelled words are tolerable- that is what fuels change of languages. I am only critical of words that are mauled past recognition.

To respond to the chart posted- When house Republicans tried to cut our debt by 100s of billions earlier this year, House Democrats shot them down and revised the spending cut down to somewheres near 60 billion. They ARE the big spenders. Weak Republicans let the Democrats away with murder of our economy. Although Clinton did reduce spending, he sent the economy into a downward spiral. Bush had trouble picking it up again.

Economy is not only guaged by national debt. In fact, our country runs much less of a deficit than most corporations. Economy instead is gauged by unemployment rates and how well people are paid, as well as market movements, CPI and similar statistics.

Unemployment rate under Bush: 4.7%
Unemployment rate under Clinton: 5.2%

(adjusting for population changes, that's about 13.5 million jobs Bush has created)

The DJIA under Clinton was also dead. In 95, when Clinton was touting an economic boom, the stock market was barely beating 5000. Bush took us out of a Stock Market Crash and our economy has supported the markets to grow by leaps and bounds. It is now over 11,000.

Congress also defeated Bush's plan to revamp social security. Most former communist countries who have now accepted Democracy know of the terrors of a social program. Former communist countries such as Chile have privatized retirement accounts. Since Democrats want to save a failed system, in a few short years, social security will take 60% of our nation's budget. MORE THAN NATIONAL DEFENSE!

Just look at that, and tell me who is wasting your tax money. Add it to liberal porkbarrel projects, and you've gotten yourself into some financial troubles.

[Dfsg]

Now, my arguments on stem cell research are not politically based, they are medically based.

Think what you will, but it will lead to disaster. Nothing ever cures anything unless it will be of windfall profits to drug companies. Find one instance where the drug companies were benevolent, and I might change my mind.

You're neuropathy will 99.9% chance never be cured with stem cells. Be offended by that statement if you wish, but it is true. Why not try the acupuncture?

[kolte]

Please do not Double post again!

http://zfacts.com/metaPage/lib/National-Debt-GDP.gif

Overall Unemployment Rate:
1996 5.4%
1997 4.9
1998 4.5
1999 4.2
2000 4.0
2001 4.7
2002 5.8
2003 6.0
2004 5.5

2005
Jan. 5.7%
Feb. 5.8
March 5.4
April 4.9
May 4.9
June 5.0
July 5.0



Inflation Rate:
Clinton: about 2.8 3.0
Bush: 3.20


National Debt:
over 8 trillion dollars. no corporation has ever been worth that much, or in debt that much. Microsoft is only 90 billion dollar corporation. The united states GDP PPP is only 12 trillion. kinda sad.

You are basing your 99.9 percent chance on what? You have no proof.
I don't really like acupuncture.

social security is a failed system. Income tax is a failed system. There are other systems we should be using. Our government should reform. Majorly.
http://www.michaelmoore.com/takeaction/deaths.php

[Underage_Thinker]

ya Dfsg if your going to say somthing make sure it's true

[kolte]

oh yeah, i site facts, not things people lead me to think. I try not to get involved with other peoples opionions, and form my own based on what I think. I read the platforms of all the campains, the partys, I read the history of 20 years in each political party, the people leading it, the commities persweading it, the commities involved and supporting it. I have studied economics, government, politics, law. I have a degree in fitness and nutrition (sorry, I just love to point that out lol) and of course, I'm a member of the green and democratic party. SOOOO yeah, them be my credentials.

[Dfsg]

i site facts

You do? I have yet to see one place cited.

Please offer me the website or governmental agency that gave you your data. I'd find more info if the debate merits more time... Also bear in mind that your info must not be from a biased source to carry any weight. I'm glad your michael moore picture didn't load correctly. I can't believe anyone listens to him at all.

As for your Microsoft analogy, of course Microsoft isn't in 8 trillion dollars of debt. Yet, most corporations run on worse of a deficit than the US based on percentage. It is a good thing, and drives our economy well. Alexander Hamilton called our national debt a blessing.

My statistics come from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, as well as the New York Stock Exchange website- nyse.com. They are certainly not things people lead me to think. The liberal parites are so messed up that it's a joke. The only Democrat I trust today is Joe Liberman. He is the picture of how our country should work. Under Democratic presidents, republicans generally work with the democrats to better our country. Under Republican presidents, Democrats do EVERYTHING in their power to sabotage this country and undermine the president. Case in point- the Alito nomination. If Bush could pass everything he is trying, we'd be much better off.

At least we both agree about Social Security- it's about time to give myself the right to handle my own retirement. I trust my money skills more than the government's.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------
As for my double post, it was simply to keep my two topics of conversation seperate. Just think of it as a reply to another topic, which is perfectly allowed by the rules. I find it convenient when topics of debate have become as diverse as this topic has.

Which leads me to your hope for stem cells to cure you. Find me one case in history where the medical companies cured a disease without taking advantage of those being cured.

The FDA attacks every attempt to cure someting naturally or with eastern medicine. They pass any drug that will make billions of dollars in profits for drug companies. Congressmen and women even have stock in these companies... It's such a sick system. Look at the Vioxx scandle. We KNOW it causes heart problems, such as increased risk for heart disease and rhabdomyolysis (muscle cell death). Yet, it makes so much money that FDA officials voted nearly unanimously to keep it on the market. Doctors get cuts for selling you drugs... And none of them cure anything. Our medical system is so messed up!

Stem Cells are just another disaster waiting to happen. How do you think you are going to get them to fix your neuropathy?

I have one associate with neuropathy who is having great successes with acupuncture. I'd look up more about how it is cured naturally, but I'm sure you wouldn't heed any of my advice...


If you double post again, I'll have to report it, don't make me do that, its such a small offense, but its not necessary, notice how I did the dotted line, try something like that from now on. please. thanx. ~kolte

[Underage_Thinker]

Here are two of my sources.
U.S. Department of the Treasury, Bureau of Public Debt. I would say those are objective sources if you ask me.

[kolte]

I use the CIA world fact book, the U.S. department of Labor, department of treasry, etc. I use most sites like that, Only the one picture was from MM site, and it was a picture of George Bush's face made out of lost troops, I thought it was a good burn.

[Underage_Thinker]

Here is the pic i think ur talking about
http://www.michaelmoore.com/_images/home/george-faces.jpg

[kolte]

yeah, but the one I had was the whole face. that ones good too.

[Underage_Thinker]

Ya i Have you heard of the crawford peace house. It's asome, i have been their.
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c177/killer604/Crawford_peacehouse.jpg
http://campcasey.4t.com/images/peace_house_bill_camp_casey_crawford_0277.jpg

[Dfsg]

Is that one of the Cindy Sheehan houses? I wish that woman would respect her son's death as a patriotic sacrifice... Funny how she's become a voice of the Democratic party.

[kolte]

never heard of it. I think that anybody who died in the war in Iraq died because they fought for a war started under false pretensis, and that they died for nothing. we could have been more democratic with Iraq, and tried to ease them into democrocy.

[Dfsg]

No reason? Why did nearly 100% of congress vote to go to war? Why, when a vote was put forth a few months ago to withdraw, did very few democrats vote yes?

What false pretenses?

[kolte]

"They have weapons of mass distruction!"

thats called untrue....thats a false pretense. ;)

[Underage_Thinker]

False pretences b/c bush said that they had weapons of mass destruction when they didn't.

[Dfsg]

We didn't go to Iraq for WMD. We went to free people from an oppressive regime that was heavily vested in terrorism. Their evil leader systematically killed hundreds of thousands of Kurds and made Shi'ite Muslims live in terror.

I thought liberals were supposed to be the compassionate party. Think of the tens of millions of people who lived (and still live) in fear of death because of their beliefs?

Most American soldiers after coming home from Iraq know that they made a big difference. Since Saddam was taken out of office, schools have been built, power reserves have been distributed fairly, money has been put into building employment offices, firetrucks, sewage systems, and many of the basic things we take for granted. Soldiers are mobbed by children and locals who cheer them on and even stoop down to kiss their feet. This happens even in the Sunni Triangle!

90% of Iraqis love America. It is the 10% of radicals that kill Americans and Iraqis alike so they can get their 72 virgins and endless praise in heaven that make Iraq still unstable.

Did you know that there are 19 provinces in Iraq, and each now has it's own governing council voted by equal delegations of the area's ethnic/religous backgrounds? Did you know that America has built 200 schools in Iraq? Did you know that America has helped close the gender gap by training women and men alike to use Computers to help them propel into this century?

But it's all about WMD. Yes, that's right. Ask the millions of Kurds who were gassed with weapons that Saddam "Doesn't Have" if he has WMD. Ask the US Troops who were shot at with Scud Missiles (something else that Saddam "Didn't have") Ask Democratic senators John Kerry, Hillary Clinton, Dick Durban, John Edwards, and almost every other senator if they thought Saddam had WMD before 2001. They all said yes, and that he must be stopped. Garbage trucks were found fleeing Iraq with all sorts of things headed to Syria, including most of Saddam's Gold reserves. It would have been simple to move them. Thousands of tons of nuclear materials were found, as well as canisters for nerve gas, and components of many devistating weapons.

But yeah, Bush is doing a terrible thing saving all those millions of men, woman, and children from oppression AND stopping Iraqi support of terrorists who would kill you and your parents without a second thought.

[redcar]

We didn't go to Iraq for WMD. We went to free people from an oppressive regime that was heavily vested in terrorism.

but you did. that was one of the arguments the allies made for invading Iraq. Saddam was in posestion of WMD, and that he posed a threat. it may not be the only reason but nevertheless is was a reason.

[Dfsg]

It's just stating that they aren't false pretenses. The major goal of going to Iraq was to destroy an evil dictator and Iraqi support of terror.

[kolte]

We didn't go to Iraq for WMD. We went to free people from an oppressive regime that was heavily vested in terrorism.

but you did. that was one of the arguments the allies made for invading Iraq. Saddam was in posestion of WMD, and that he posed a threat. it may not be the only reason but nevertheless is was a reason.

after no WMD's were found, the was was named Operation Iraqi Liberation, after about a week with that name, it was changed to operation Iraqi freedom because OIL is the initals of opertion iraqi liberation. (tehe) The gender gap in Iraq was the smallest in the middle east, not to mention Iraq was one of the most democratic, wealthy, stable countries in the middle east. Thats right, you don't hear that often, but look it up some time, I dare you, you will find Iraq is a wonderful county, under the dictation of a horrible administration. its true many people were killed in Iraq by the government, and thats wrong, but to say that we went to free the people, is a lie, we went to do somthing else. remember the huge scandel in the whitehouse, that withen days was changed into the CIA thing. George Bush knew about things he did not share with congress, he KNEW information tidbits that nobody else knew, things that we don't know, and he didnt share them. If we would have seen this information would we have still gone to war? i dont know. Not to mention the UN told us not to go to war. We attacked a soverign nation. under false pretenses. I'm gonna cut it off there, cuz I have urgent business.

~kolte

[Dfsg]

Are you talking about the CIA thing involving the leaking of the name of a non- covert operative of the CIA? The name of a person that could be found on the internet, who worked in a small sattalite part of the CIA? No law was broken, and Scooter Libby will be found innocent. It's a minor issue that the libs have been blowing out of proportion. The prosecuter can't even prove the Scooter Libby even leaked the name, covert operative or not.

In Iraq, WMDs were found, and were used. You call a country stable when it has 3 waring groups? When one of the groups gains power and murders the others in genocide with chemical weapons (WMDs) is it stable? It was a wealthy nation where all of the wealth was held by a select few, and the rest lived in squaller. There are many more stable countries than Iraq. Try The UAE for instance. Why do Iraqis celebrate the US arrival? Why are there pictures of parties in the streets with huge applause as Americans drive down the road in tanks?

And women were better off in the old regime? Even if they were better treated in Iraq than, say, Syria, they were still denied basic human rights and were treated more as objects than people with rights.

Would Iraq be better off with Saddam still in power?

If you think we went to Iraq for oil- Show me that oil. It's about a dollar a gallon in Iraq, and $2.15 here. What oil did we steal? We didn't take a drop! In fact, we saved it from radical burnings so the other locals can have it and build an economy off of it.

If you think we went to Iraq for Halliburton, did you know that Clinton gave them a no-bid contract with his insurgency into all the problems in the balkans? They are just the company this country trusts.

[kolte]

do i think we went to iraq for oil? did i say I did. no.

would iraq be better off with saddam? time will only tell. but I think no.

in raq, wmd's were found, and were used.......don't make me slap you, people havent been filling your head with such bull shit have they, becase No NO NO NO NO NO NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO weapons of mass destruction were found, in your face. and if you they they were, show me the proof.

yes women were bettter off, they didnt have to wear the things over there faces, they had.....*drumroll* equal rights.

no I'm not talking aobut the CIA leak bull shit. I'm talking about bush lying aabout Iraq when he knew they didnt ahve weapons of mass distruction and he knew that osama bin laden was not in iraq. because, and call mme crazy but, I think this all started because Osama bomed new york, we attack afghanistan, and then all the sudden Iraq?????? riiiiiiiiight.

[Dfsg]

It is a war on terrorism, not any one country. Any country harboring terrorists will eventually be hit unless they stop supporting terrorism.

And you just spit in the face of every Kurd by saying Saddam didn't cause genocide on millions of them with the Chemican Weapons Democrats say he never had.

I'd post countless pictures of dead Kurdish children, but that'd probably offend some people. I'm looking for a particualr one of a shrine made of all the empty canisters of chemical weapons Saddam used in his Kurdish genocide, listing the names of thousands of those killed at that spot. I say that's proof. If you want more, just ask.

[kolte]

while your at it I'll give you the names and pictures of the 100000+ children killed by united states bombs in iraq since bomber raids began in 1991

[Dfsg]

I can show you pictures of injured Iraqi children injured by US bombing who still rejoice when they see US troops, because they know that they will now grow up in a democracy free from Saddam's control. Their parents have explained that their sacrifice helped better the country.

[Underage_Thinker]

Ok Dfsg so you are saying that we should go into a contry just to liberate its people. So y don't we invade North Korea? It is also oppressing its people, and most contreies actuly agree that they have a nuclear weapons program. I mean we can't just march into any contrey that we don't like the way their treating there people, because if that was so we would be invading half of africa.

[kolte]

Why Iraq first? That’s a good question. We knew North Korea had nuclear weapons programs, Iran had nuclear weapons programs. Why in the hell did we attack the least hostile one? Sure Saddam is a long standing enemy of the United States, but at the time we attacked Iraq, was North Korea and Iran not just if not more threatening? Did we not, long ago, add them to the axis of evil?

I was under the impression that the United States went to the middle east to begin is fight on Terrorism. We still haven’t found one of the most dangerous men in the world, which on September 11th, 2001 orchestrated a horrendous attack on the United States citizens, in an attempt to set the western world back a step. However, instead of fulfilling his promise to find and kill Osama Bin Laden, we veered southwest from Afghanistan, and into Iraq, a sovereign nation under the grip of a truly evil man. Saddam Hussein. The UN weapons inspectors weren’t given the time to search Iraq or WMD’s. No. Instead we shunned the outcries of protest from the UN and world public. Shunned the UN weapons inspectors from the premises, and attacked Baghdad, killing many citizens in our wake.

Did we have the right? 30000 citizen ‘casualties”? These are not “causalities”, these are moms, and dads, and kids, and teachers, and nurses, and innocent bystanders. Did Saddam deserve to be captured and taken out? God yes, he’s a horrid man, but isn’t there a better, less expensive, less, brutal way, to take him out of power. I said no when we went into war, and I say no now. If here, in this day and age, we still cannot work things out in between nations, threw negotiations and UN policies. Then this is a place I don’t want to live in. I do not consider myself American anymore. I am ashamed by the way my fellow county men have let go of there pride. For what? What reason of we done this? Is war the only way, is war the only answer? Do thousands more have to die so you can prove your point?

Next time you’re reading about the war in Iraq, and you see a list of ‘casualties’. Don’t just look at the number. Look around you, to the many people all around you, living breathing, enjoying life without a care, and imagine them caught up in a gun fight, and murdered. These are not just numbers, these are people, just like you and I. I think we have forgotten that.

[Dfsg]

The problem is that Iraqis weren't just living life without a care. They lived in fear every day. It is not the right of any country to make it's citizens live in such a condition. Like I said, most of families and wounded casualties of the Iraqi liberation were greatful for American intervention. The Amerian and other troops in Iraq have been coming home and trying to re-up right away to get back and help the cause. Very few troops are against the war, and polls have put their approval of the War and the President at and over 80%. They know that their sacrifice is helping out a noble cause. 60% (give or take) of this Country dissaproves of the war, but their opinions have been swayed by biased media, they do not represent the opinions of people who have actually been there and know what we are doing.

Why did we go to Iraq before Iran or North Korea? They are places the UN hasn't failed in fully yet. Remember- the Oil for Food scandle. The UN inspectors were not doing their job properly, and Saddam knew when inspectors were coming, and where they were going. That is how he orchestrated the moving of his weapons and gold reserves. Don't forget, almost every single high government official wanted to go to war, and almost every Democratic and Republican senator denounced the evils of Saddam. They showed their fear of Saddam's building of WMDs and Human Rights violations. No news media will ever let you know that people like Hillary Clinton and John Kerry publicly announced the terrors of Iraq.

Why don't we have Osama Bin Laden yet? He's a slippery guy. Sure, Bush hasn't turned his full attention to Osama, and he should be. Don't forget, though, that on the same day that Clinton was with Monica Lewinsky, he was asked to give the military permission to get Osama, as he was just inches away from being captured. Clinton declined to give permission, as he was busy. Bush has at least been staying on top of the situation.

Why not initiate negotiations? We did! Saddam proved very hard to negotiate with. Terrorists did not negotiate. They were too radical to talk to diplomats. You would negotiate with the people who want you dead, just because you are an American? They hate you. They appreciate the America-dissaproval that you might spread, but they would still kill you without a second thought. They are not a force to be negotiated with anymore.

[kolte]

I'm sorry, but dsfg, everying you say is wrong. everything. its all wrong. I'm not even going to fight it, I think most people agree with me when I say, your full of shit when it come to george bush. I don't know why you are ignorant to his faults, but you are, and you will never see how tainted his administration is. fighting is usless at this point, there is not turing back for you, you will grow up, narrowminded and radical christian. and you will fight your lost causes. I hope america falls.....I hope it colapses under its own arrogance. I won't be staying here for my schooling, or after that, I hope that this administration is torn inside out, and that this county finially sees how they have been wronged. what ever happend to a united world, peace, do we have to kill everyone who is different, before we see that we have done wrong.

[Dfsg]

We'll see each other at the Polls.

More Americans voted for this president than any other political candidate in history.

You, my friend, are the radical one here, who is wrong in most cases. You, like every other liberal, just wants to see the destruction of this country. Where is your patriotism? There is no honor in hating this country. I hope you are the one who grows up and sees the truth of Conservatism outside of the fantasy that most young people have of Liberalism. I have an opinion that is rare among young folks around my age, but is the norm among most people older than 25. You just may find that in a few years.

Most Americans, believe it or not, love this country, and would do anything to help it.

[kolte]

I do love this country, I love what it stands for, but I refuse to remain a part of it under the current circumstances. Its not the America that it should or could be. I will study political science and law as planned. by age 24 I will have a PhD in Political Science since I will be going to college this coming fall. We will see my conservitive friend, what the outcome of all of this is. I will campaign and vote for a democrat this next election. As much as I would like to leave this country, the more my thoughts linger on it, the more I see how much that would strain me. I love america, but it makes me want to scream every time I look at what we are becoming. I look forward to a new world, not just an america. A united world bound with abundent commerce. If we try, we can put an end to world starvation and mass death. Word to help educate Africa and Asia, building schools, employing teachers, builing roads, and commerce. A mass global economy, intertwined, and peaceful. thats not just a dream, thats possible, in our lifetimes. To end our differences. They will still be there, but we will not notice them, we will all be the same. colour, gender, age, political affilitaion, religion....it won't matter, because we will all have the same freedoms. thats what I want, and I will do my best to try and reach that goal in my lifetime. If america wants to anex itself from the rest of the world, so be it, let the rest of the world share the spotlight, and let them thrive in business and education....thats my dream, my goal, my future.

[Dfsg]

I hope we can agree that, although we find each other radically wrong, we love the democratic process, and are glad to see each other educated voters about situations.

It makes me scared to hear that people who don't even know who the vice president is can vote for the next one!

It's a breath of fresh air to see people passionate and educated who are voting.

[kolte]

indeed, agreed! Though we may be on seperate sides, its good that at least we are intersted in government and try to help the world.