Are You Antireligious?

[rainebg]

Are you anti religious? Please explain your opinion.
Personally i am against religion because it causes a lot of violence (crusades, troubles in the middle east, 9/11) and it spreads hate (god hates fags etc.). I realize that these things are very extremist but there will always be religious extremists. And on a final note I'm not trying to put religious people down, I'm sure you're nice people but i believe society would be better without religion. Post your opinions please! Without bashing each other (or me!) explain your side, I'm interested in your arguments, especially those FOR religion!
Thank You!:)

[Sage]

I'm a tad bit tired right now so no garuantees to the length of this post, but I'll probably go on a bit of a ramble, so bear with me...

To answer the question- Yes. I am most certainly anti-religious. I have no problem with personal beliefs, no matter how ridiculous however. If you wish you belief there is a tiny chinese teacup orbitting around the planet Saturn- go for it. That's good for you. The problem I have with religion is the way it tries to influence others, and how it excludes people.

Personally I feel it is foolish to live out your life based on a leap of faith. You can call 'faith' whatever you like, a "connection to God" or whatever, but at its core, faith is a belief without evidence. Religion, for many people, is a large part of their lives. People pray to God(s) with faith that their prayers will be answered, they change their lifestyle to fit within the teachings of their religious group.

Problem with religion #1: Changing your lifestyle for no understandable, rational reason.

I'll continue next with the concept of 'sins'. Mind you all, I am not specifically ranting against Christianity- All faiths have some sort of taboo, blasphamies, or things by different names that they do not want you to do. Certain religious people even condemn others who do these things and claim that they are "unnatural". Homosexuality is a good example of this. Masturbation is a good example of this. Religion teaches people that things of this nature are immoral.

Problem with religion #2: It makes you feel bad for being human and having human urges and desires.

Next up I'd like to mention how it excludes and shuns groups of people. You can see this throughout history and in modern times: Hundreds of years ago, the Christians spread from the Middle East throughout Europe, persecuting the various Pagan denominations who had lived there for a long time. These days, look at radical Islam in the Middle East. They are raising a new generation of children who have a sense of hate instilled into their minds, children who love death and dedicate their whole lives to slaying the infidels and becoming martyrs.

Problem with religion #3: It spreads hate and discrimination.

Lastly for now is how it tries to spread its views onto other people. Again, look no further than modern times to see an example of this. What do you have in the southern United States? Intelligent Design and Creationist groups are trying to force religious creation myths into science classrooms. Another fine example is Britain- More and more muslim immigrants settle down in Britain every year, and are attempting to take over the government by sheer power in numbers. You can now choose between going to a courthouse under British law or Sharia law in Britain, the latter of which is highly discriminatory against women's rights.

Problem with religion #4: It forces itself unto others.

Disclaimer: Things I've complained about certainly do not apply to all religious people. Again, mind you, I said I have no problem with personal beliefs. I am only against religion to the degree of extremism, such as fundamentalist christians and islamic terrorists.

Also, I'm well aware this isn't my best rant ever, anyone interested should probably check the much better one I posted in my diary some time ago (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showpost.php?p=466852&postcount=10) for a more indepth opinion from me.

I think this is an interesting topic though, hopefully this post can serve as a fair basis for religious people to debate me on.

[Zephyr]

Yes and no.

Religion has it's pros as well as it's cons.

It keeps a moral 'norm' in societies, but it does cause a lot of conflict historically.

[Sage]

Yes and no.

Religion has it's pros as well as it's cons.

It keeps a moral 'norm' in societies, but it does cause a lot of conflict historically.

I could disagree about a moral norm. Could you elaborate on this? I would imagine things such as 'Don't kill', 'Don't steal', etc, should more or less be common sense. Issues in which religion is more of a factor like Abortion and Gay Marriage don't exactly have a societal norm, most people are either for one or the other.

[Zephyr]

While I am an Atheist, I do have to say that without religion this world would be a much different place. Coming from my mother's southern baptist background, they put emphasis on acceptance and respect. Her side of the family knows that I'm Atheist and they arn't knocking on my door stoning me to death, they accept my choice to believe what I believe and still love me regardless. They arn't the typical bible-belters, they apply religion with common sense.

If you look at the bare bones of religion, then yes, it looks horrible. But it's how we as humans apply the lessons that religion teaches. The extremists with the 'I'm better than you' attitude make it look immoral because they are full of hate. But if you look at the ones who follow it with moderation and apply the religion's lessons with some sense, there is where you get the norm from. Studies show that people who attend church regularly live, on average, 5 years longer than those who do not. I know more Atheists who get depressed or attempt suicide then any other religious background. Religion gives people a sense of belonging, which is what most of the human race looks for.

Sorry. I'd like to elaborate better, but I'm heading to a friends.
I'll be back later.

[theOperaGhost]

I personally have nothing wrong with religion. I was raised as a Christian although we were a Christmas service family (only went to church on Christmas). I now don't really consider myself Christian.

Religion in my opinion is a good thing, however the corrupt extremists have ruined it for me.

Actually, extremists ruin everything. Which is the main reason I don't consider myself atheist either because I can't stand (most) extremist atheists. And yes, it is possible to be an extreme atheist, however I only seem to start arguments about that. It's also groups that take the Bible so out of context (such as evangelicals) that ruin Christianity for me.

I also don't see the world being necessarily better off without religion. To be honest, I don't see it being better at all. Religion DOES NOT make people judge each others differences. Religion does not cause people to possess more than others. Religion doesn't cause hate; judgment, discrimination and greed cause hatred and all of these things would exist regardless of religions existence.

[nick]

You can now choose between going to a courthouse under British law or Sharia law in Britain
Whilst I agree with much of what you say the particular point which I've quoted above is in fact whats known as bollucks.

Do not allow your emotions and strong feelings to override the need for accuracy in such matters. There are a very small number (too many I would agree) of areas in which by mutual consent muslims may be able to go to a muslim court in the UK. Personally I would agree there should be none, if you're not prepared to live by the laws of the host country go live elsewhere. Divorce law is probably the usual case, and of course the Islamic law is hideously weighted against the woman as compared to standard UK law. But to make a statement that might suggest we're lopping off peoples hands or stoning women to death is a step too far.

[rainebg]

While I am an Atheist, I do have to say that without religion this world would be a much different place. Coming from my mother's southern baptist background, they put emphasis on acceptance and respect. Her side of the family knows that I'm Atheist and they arn't knocking on my door stoning me to death, they accept my choice to believe what I believe and still love me regardless. They arn't the typical bible-belters, they apply religion with common sense.

If you look at the bare bones of religion, then yes, it looks horrible. But it's how we as humans apply the lessons that religion teaches. The extremists with the 'I'm better than you' attitude make it look immoral because they are full of hate. But if you look at the ones who follow it with moderation and apply the religion's lessons with some sense, there is where you get the norm from. Studies show that people who attend church regularly live, on average, 5 years longer than those who do not. I know more Atheists who get depressed or attempt suicide then any other religious background. Religion gives people a sense of belonging, which is what most of the human race looks for.

Sorry. I'd like to elaborate better, but I'm heading to a friends.
I'll be back later.

You make very good points but as long as there is religion there is (probably) always going to be extremists. :)

[Church]

Well I'm not anti-religious as much as anti-christian radicals, the religion itself is cool with me (I'm Wiccan btw)

I hate the radicals cause they think their right everyone else it wrong, they tend to try to scare people, mainly young children into believing there ways.

[Sage]

Whilst I agree with much of what you say the particular point which I've quoted above is in fact whats known as bollucks.

Do not allow your emotions and strong feelings to override the need for accuracy in such matters. There are a very small number (too many I would agree) of areas in which by mutual consent muslims may be able to go to a muslim court in the UK. Personally I would agree there should be none, if you're not prepared to live by the laws of the host country go live elsewhere. Divorce law is probably the usual case, and of course the Islamic law is hideously weighted against the woman as compared to standard UK law. But to make a statement that might suggest we're lopping off peoples hands or stoning women to death is a step too far.

I.. never claimed you folks were beheading people and stoning criminals to death. My main point is that if you look at a typical radical islamic family, the man can be very abusive towards his wife, and it isn't uncommon that women are pressured into consenting to the muslim court service.

[INFERNO]

I see more negative aspects about religion than positive ones. To me, the only real positive one is to make the believers feel good in some way. Aside from that, I cannot see any other positive aspects from it. The negative aspects are quite clear, such as believing something completely irrational, increases discrimination towards certain groups for irrational reasons, many of them refuse to believe that another god(s)/goddess(es) exist and so they simply refuse to even consider challenging their beliefs (doesn't apply to all but to the majority, it does), refuses to allow its followers to engage with non-followers simply because they're non-followers (doesn't apply to all) and instills what it believes to be moral or rational when in the rest of the society it isn't. In some of them, there is an attempt to convert non-believers to believe, reducing one's free will and beliefs without persecution/harrassment. Granted, there will be extremists, there will be very laid back people and there will be a large population in the middle.

However, I think it's necessary to say that it's the fault of the believers, not the religion. The religious beliefs may say to do some act (i.e. kill non-believers), however, does that mean that all believers do that? No, they have a choice. So, when I say that religion hasn't done much good, I mean to say the devout people of that religion haven't done much good.

[Sapphire]

My view is quite simple.

The power of faith is a very strong force. It can do people the world of good by giving them the support and security required to get through trying times (e.g. cancer patients, the bereaved etc). When people take it all too seriously you get the more negative results like racism.

In conclusion, there is nothing wrong with religion per se. It is the individual that makes it a positive or negative influence on their life and the lives of those around them.

And btw, women have historically had more freedoms under Islamic influenced laws than ones influenced by Christianity.
They have different rights and roles in Islam compared to Christianity, but that does not mean that they are not respected among the Islamic community. Traditionally, the father earns the main household income while the mother looks after the family. If she wants to work then she can, but the money she earns is her own. It does not go towards the household finances. Daughters have more independence than sons as the mother-son relationship is deemed the strongest. This, combined with the respect they must give their mother/sisters results in the sons being given the responsibility to look out for and help them when they need it.

[Blue63]

I'm pretty religious, Catholic, raised it and if I had a choice I would still pick it.

Religion doesn't cause wars, the clashes of religions do.

Religion brings a lot of good things a lot of the times. Good morals and a lot of times friendliness although at times in extremist religions there can be racial discrimination. There are some violent and bad religions out there, that doesn't mean all of them are.

As Sapphire said the power of faith is incredibly strong, if you have an strong faith to God it could lead to dedication to a job or a relationship. It can lead to a lot of good things, I know I sound like that guy on the Jesus commercials but I just can't imagine things ending after death with no afterlife, good or bad. I just don't see the point of it. But that starts to cross into the whole meaning of life thing and I'd rather not get into it.

Anway no I'm not anti religion and never will be, just me.

[Jean Poutine]

Well I'm not anti-religious as much as anti-christian radicals, the religion itself is cool with me (I'm Wiccan btw)

It is common knowledge that only those who choose Christianity as a religion can be extremists.

Religion doesn't cause wars, the clashes of religions do.

That's like saying grapes and yeast do not undergo fermentation to produce wine - the clash between the two does. At the end of the day wine is still grapes and yeast, much as what causes conflicts is still religion.

Religion was not made for nutjobs as much as wine was not make for heavy drinkers.

There are some violent and bad religions out there, that doesn't mean all of them are.

No there aren't. There is only violent and bad people who distort religion.

You seem to be thinking about Islam - do you really think Allah condones people blowing themselves up on "infidels"? I'd recommend giving the Koran at least one read. Most Christians should - you'd realise that it's not that different.

if you have an strong faith to God it could lead to dedication to a job or a relationship.

Depending on what exactly you practice, it can also lead to you giving all your money to someone with slick hair and white teeth.

Nonetheless, if you need outside support to maintain a job or a relationship, then perhaps it's time to search for a new job or a new lifemate.


As for beliefs...I believe in myself. I don't need some God dude to live my life successfully.

That being said, I see nothing wrong with God dudes in general. There was a time were I was quite devout myself.

[Sapphire]

It is common knowledge that only those who choose Christianity as a religion can be extremists.Extremists are found within many different religions, not just Christianity. Take Judaism and Islam for example

That's like saying grapes and yeast do not undergo fermentation to produce wine - the clash between the two does. At the end of the day wine is still grapes and yeast, much as what causes conflicts is still religion.It isn't religion that causes war. It is the people involved that cause it. An abstract concept like the existence of God cannot have physical repercussions if there aren't people who believe. So, you have to have people who believe in religion who disagree over something for there to be a war sparked by religious differences.

Nonetheless, if you need outside support to maintain a job or a relationship, then perhaps it's time to search for a new job or a new lifemate.I think he means that the power of faith can lead people to hold down a job when everything seems to going to pot. People in times of great hardship can gain a lot of security and a greater sense of support if they have faith and if that's what keeps them going, good for them.

[Blue63]

You seem to be thinking about Islam - do you really think Allah condones people blowing themselves up on "infidels"? I'd recommend giving the Koran at least one read. Most Christians should - you'd realise that it's not that different.


Although I have not read the Koran I have studied Islam, I know Allah is the same as the Christian and Jewish God, I know the 5 Pillars of Islamic Faith, and it really wasn't what I was thinking about.

I was more thinking of Religions that used to be commonly found and are still found in the south of the United States that believe all humans are not created equal and believe that God want's them to kill the blacks because they're not people.


I think he means that the power of faith can lead people to hold down a job when everything seems to going to pot. People in times of great hardship can gain a lot of security and a greater sense of support if they have faith and if that's what keeps them going, good for them.

That's exactly what I meant, thank you for clarifying my post! It can lead people to work hard and try holding down a job instead of resorting to stealing because they think it's "all the same" and don't care about morals.

[Jean Poutine]

Extremists are found within many different religions, not just Christianity. Take Judaism and Islam for example
I think the sarcasm contained herein flew over your head. : )

It isn't religion that causes war. It is the people involved that cause it. An abstract concept like the existence of God cannot have physical repercussions if there aren't people who believe. So, you have to have people who believe in religion who disagree over something for there to be a war sparked by religious differences.
Coming down to it, if humans didn't need to justify their fickle existence by invoking some God dude upstairs, there wouldn't be any religious wars, as religion would not be defined by a belief in a, or more, deities.

Thought systems rarely give way to violence. It's the deity dogma that does.


I was more thinking of Religions that used to be commonly found and are still found in the south of the United States that believe all humans are not created equal and believe that God want's them to kill the blacks because they're not people.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.

The KKK is not a religion.

As for various sects like the Westboro Baptist Church, I prefer to call them regroupments of imbeciles, crackpots and other asinine people than religions.

That's exactly what I meant, thank you for clarifying my post! It can lead people to work hard and try holding down a job instead of resorting to stealing because they think it's "all the same" and don't care about morals.
You don't need a religion to have morals.

I consider myself a sceptic and a stoic in the ancient sense of the words - that doesn't mean that I'm going to go steal bread at the least hardship.

[Sapphire]

Coming down to it, if humans didn't need to justify their fickle existence by invoking some God dude upstairs, there wouldn't be any religious wars, as religion would not be defined by a belief in a, or more, deities.

Thought systems rarely give way to violence. It's the deity dogma that does.If religion didn't exist then people would find another excuse to fight each other. Again, this is a fault with the people and not with religion.

Where's the dogma in drug related killings?
What role does it play in sexual abuse?
Not all of these are caused by religious dogma but they are undeniably violent acts. So your claim that thought systems rarely give way to violence and that it is the religious dogma that does is clearly incorrect.

And did you even read this part of my post: "[...] the power of faith can lead people to hold down a job when everything seems to going to pot. People in times of great hardship can gain a lot of security and a greater sense of support if they have faith and if that's what keeps them going, good for them."

[theOperaGhost]

I hate the argument that there wouldn't be wars if religion didn't exist. It's complete bullshit.

The causes of war are hate and envy in my opinion. People will always hate each other, religions don't cause hate. People are competitive, thus they always try to be the best...once again, NOT caused by religion.

Wars for envious reasons would still exist whether religion existed or not. People would fight over territory and other possessions.

I feel that fighting/war is in our nature. Most of it is the cause of envy and greed, NOT religion. Saying the absence of religion would have caused the absence of war is just absurd.

[Camazotz]

I hate the argument that there wouldn't be wars if religion didn't exist. It's complete bullshit.

The causes of war are hate and envy in my opinion. People will always hate each other, religions don't cause hate. People are competitive, thus they always try to be the best...once again, NOT caused by religion.

Wars for envious reasons would still exist whether religion existed or not. People would fight over territory and other possessions.

I feel that fighting/war is in our nature. Most of it is the cause of envy and greed, NOT religion. Saying the absence of religion would have caused the absence of war is just absurd.

I think that hate and intolerance can be caused by religion, which is why some wars are started because of religion. I agree that there are other reasons besides religion that have to do with wars, and I agree that it is in our nature to fight for power, but I do believe religion can cause intolerance and hate between others which can in turn cause war.

[Zephyr]

I hate the argument that there wouldn't be wars if religion didn't exist. It's complete bullshit.

The causes of war are hate and envy in my opinion. People will always hate each other, religions don't cause hate. People are competitive, thus they always try to be the best...once again, NOT caused by religion.

Wars for envious reasons would still exist whether religion existed or not. People would fight over territory and other possessions.

I feel that fighting/war is in our nature. Most of it is the cause of envy and greed, NOT religion. Saying the absence of religion would have caused the absence of war is just absurd.

Took the words right out of my mouth!

While some wars historically are over religion,
Not ALL of them are.
It's in man's nature to go forth and conquer.
How else to you think we became the dominant species on this planet?
The human mind is a powerful thing.

[theOperaGhost]

I think that hate and intolerance can be caused by religion, which is why some wars are started because of religion. I agree that there are other reasons besides religion that have to do with wars, and I agree that it is in our nature to fight for power, but I do believe religion can cause intolerance and hate between others which can in turn cause war.

There is no doubt that religion has caused war, I am in no way disputing that. I just can't stand the argument that if religion didn't exist, war would also cease to exist. I don't buy that in the least. People will still fight about something else because it is what people do.

[volaricc55]

I'm in between i believe happen for a reason but idk its probably all made up anyhow.

[Jean Poutine]

If religion didn't exist then people would find another excuse to fight each other. Again, this is a fault with the people and not with religion.
Sure. But it wouldn't be about religion.

Where's the dogma in drug related killings?
What role does it play in sexual abuse?
Not all of these are caused by religious dogma but they are undeniably violent acts. So your claim that thought systems rarely give way to violence and that it is the religious dogma that does is clearly incorrect.
I didn't say religious dogma. I said "the dogma of deities". You're putting words in my mouth that just aren't there.

Religious wars are pissing contests between the conception of two different people about two different Gods. It's like "my father is stronger than you". Look at the Crusades : "only my God is great enough to possess Jerusalem, so you Muslim Turks, who gave permission to our Christian pilgrims to visit without fear of harm, can just piss off".

There are religions without deities and everything would be much better if they all didn't.

I also didn't know drug abuse and sexual abuse were thought systems. Can you name which Greco-Roman philosophers created the "drug abuse" philosophy or the "sexual abuse" philosophy?

By thought system I obviously meant spiritual systems. As in numerous philosophies (ancient - stoicism, scepticism, hedonism or more recent - rationalism, determinism, empirism, etc) and other assorted ways of thinking. Tell me when supporters of empirism did more than piss on rationalism by the way of books.

I just can't stand the argument that if religion didn't exist, war would also cease to exist.
And nobody ever said that either. Instead of putting words into my mouth, you're removing them.

I said wars with religious motives would cease if deity-centric dogmas also disappeared.

[Hyper]

Religion has never been the cause of a war

Its rather been used as an excuse

[Sapphire]

I didn't say religious dogma. I said "the dogma of deities". You're putting words in my mouth that just aren't there.

Religious wars are pissing contests between the conception of two different people about two different Gods. It's like "my father is stronger than you". Look at the Crusades : "only my God is great enough to possess Jerusalem, so you Muslim Turks, who gave permission to our Christian pilgrims to visit without fear of harm, can just piss off".How does one define "the dogma of deities"?

Actually, the First Crusade was started by Western Christians going to the east of Europe to help the Christians that lived there. These Christians were under the very real threat of military invasion by the Muslims. It was this threat that led for them to ask for help. The armies had a second purpose to the Crusade and that was to make a pilgrimage to Jerusalem. Since the Turks had taken hold of Jerusalem it have become very dangerous for Christian pilgrims. So bad in fact that they preferred to go in armed groups on their pilgrimage to the Holy Land.

The following Crusades were simply a number of quests to regain control over Jerusalem. You have to remember that the time in which these Crusades were carried out, territory was very important.

What part of all of that is a "pissing contest"?

There are religions without deities and everything would be much better if they all didn't.And you "know" that how exactly?

I also didn't know drug abuse and sexual abuse were thought systems. Can you name which Greco-Roman philosophers created the "drug abuse" philosophy or the "sexual abuse" philosophy?

By thought system I obviously meant spiritual systems. As in numerous philosophies (ancient - stoicism, scepticism, hedonism or more recent - rationalism, determinism, empirism, etc) and other assorted ways of thinking. Tell me when supporters of empirism did more than piss on rationalism by the way of books.You didn't "obviously" mean anything other than thought system as it is the term you used. If you meant "spiritual systems" then you should have said so. And how are those theories examples of spiritual systems anyway?

Everything people see/sense enters into their own thought system. Different people have different thought systems which is why we don't all think the same things in the same situations. As such, the term thought systems is very much applicable to the examples I put to you.

Religion has never been the cause of a war

Its rather been used as an excuse
QFT
That is so true!

[Jean Poutine]

How does one define "the dogma of deities"?
As an unflexible theory (which is a dogma) involving one, or more, deities (which is a deity).

Religion is separable from deities.


Actually, the First Crusade was started by Western Christians going to the east of Europe to help the Christians that lived there. These Christians were under the very real threat of military invasion by the Muslims. It was this threat that led for them to ask for help. The armies had a second purpose to the Crusade and that was to make a pilgrimage to Jerusalem. Since the Turks had taken hold of Jerusalem it have become very dangerous for Christian pilgrims. So bad in fact that they preferred to go in armed groups on their pilgrimage to the Holy Land.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi

That's the worst that could happen to them under Seljuk Turks.

The following Crusades were simply a number of quests to regain control over Jerusalem. You have to remember that the time in which these Crusades were carried out, territory was very important.

What part of all of that is a "pissing contest"?

Everything. Territory matters are pissing contests. Crusades were pissing contests. This is a pissing contest.

And you "know" that how exactly?
I didn't say that I did "know". Again, you're putting words in my mouth that just aren't there.

I made a reasonable guess carried out by an affirmative phrase.

As an example of a religion without deities, see LaVeyan Satanism.

You didn't "obviously" mean anything other than thought system as it is the term you used. If you meant "spiritual systems" then you should have said so. And how are those theories examples of spiritual systems anyway?
Take one minute to look at my location field.

"Québec City, Québec, Canada"

Je ne parle pas anglais. I meant what I meant, in the best way that I could put it. By the context it was clear enough, you're just having fun playing the semantics game.

If you want, we can continue this in French.

Spiritual matters : "Spiritual matters are thus those matters regarding humankind's ultimate nature and meaning, not only as material biological organisms, but as beings with a unique relationship to that which is perceived to be beyond the bodily senses, time and the material world."

Empirism has its very own conception of the human being as a being incapable of harming others with the knowledge of its actions. Rationalism puts forth the theory of rational beings (dur) with a clear religious understrata. Stoicism believes in Mother Nature as the driving force, as the infinite matter that constitutes everything in the Universe and eliminates any luck, or random action, which is a common point with determinism.

They are all spiritual "thought" systems.

Everything people see/sense enters into their own thought system. Different people have different thought systems which is why we don't all think the same things in the same situations. As such, the term thought systems is very much applicable to the examples I put to you.
Irrelevent given what is above.


QFT
That is so true!
My God has a bigger dick than your God. - George Carlin

[Requin]

Okay, here's my view on religion which is a bit middle of the road, but I prefer being that way, more likely to get run over, but less likely to be shot because of it.

I am personally not religious, and I agree with Jared in the fact that when people say that there would be no war if there wasn't religion, which in some cases may be true, as for examaple, The Crusades etc.

BUT, this is a very narrow minded view on it, pub logic as I like to call it. Religion helps so many people out in the world, but it also doesn't help, wars, disputes such as that stupid condom row in Africa.
I have no problem with people who are religious, what I DO have a problem with are certain religious people who think that without religion you are cast out from the human race and will lead a life of sin and rule breaking, to burn a cruel and endless torture in Hell!!!!!!

That's annoying and I find this very patronising with people who do this. I feel as if they think that without religion we're mindless sheep wandering around commiting sin everywhere. Thankfully there's not many of those.
Also, what I don't like are religions argueing against each other, all saying that what they believe in is true etc, why? Why can't they just deal with it, that someone else doesn't believe what they do, it's silly.
Again, this is a minority.

I'm not antireligious, as I can deal with the fact that others don't share my belief and view. But I get annoyed with the arguments that religion can cause. Personally I wish that I could believe in a religion, but I just can't...it's not me.
Like I said, middle of the road.

To alter and quote from a famous song "Hey bastards, leave those believers alone!"

[Sapphire]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi

That's the worst that could happen to them under Seljuk Turks.

Everything. Territory matters are pissing contests. Crusades were pissing contests. This is a pissing contest.If it is a choice of that or calling for aid in preventing the invasion, I think it is easy to see why they called for help.
You have glossed over the fact that the Seljuk Turks had restricted access to the Christian religious sites. You have also glossed over the fact that the main issue in the Crusades was territory which is contradictory to what you were saying.

Regardless of whether or not it was a pissing contest, it was not primarily about religion as you had stated in your other post.

I didn't say that I did "know". Again, you're putting words in my mouth that just aren't there.

I made a reasonable guess carried out by an affirmative phrase.

As an example of a religion without deities, see LaVeyan Satanism.LaVeyan Satanism advocates violent behaviour in a couple of situations. That does not seem to promote the best manner of living.


Spiritual matters : "Spiritual matters are thus those matters regarding humankind's ultimate nature and meaning, not only as material biological organisms, but as beings with a unique relationship to that which is perceived to be beyond the bodily senses, time and the material world."

Empirism has its very own conception of the human being as a being incapable of harming others with the knowledge of its actions. Rationalism puts forth the theory of rational beings (dur) with a clear religious understrata. Stoicism believes in Mother Nature as the driving force, as the infinite matter that constitutes everything in the Universe and eliminates any luck, or random action, which is a common point with determinism.

They are all spiritual "thought" systems.Fair enough. As far as spiritual systems of thought go, it seems to be rather abstract and less popular in the public eye.
If it were as prominent in the public eye as Christianity etc, then there would be conflict between the different schools of thought anyway.

Irrelevent given what is above.It was not irrelevant as it was in reference to what I had said in the post before.
http://subjectivematters.com/2006/05/25/thought-as-a-system/

You are purposely dismissing anything which contradicts elements of your view point instead of addressing them.

[Mzor203]

Really, the main problem I have religion is that it seperates people much more than it unites them. Heck, in this town even Christians of different Churches can't get along.

Living in a very Christian community, and being non-religious myself, I have seen lots of the seperation religion causes. There was a family up here who our family was 'friends' with for a little while, but after they realized we weren't religious, they forbade their kids to play with us, and pretty much attempted to isolate us from the rest of the community, spreading bad things around.

There have been many other kids around here who have gone off on us just because we're not Christian. There have been people who pretty much verbally harrassed me for it. And this isn't a case where one or two members of the religion are giving me a skewed view, the WHOLE FUCKING COMMUNITY is like this.

Christian parents are pretty much going to force their religion upon their children from the start, and often kids are never given a chance to really choose. Sure, things may be more open to them after they leave the house, but at that point it's so ingrained in their heads that there's really not much hope of escape.

I'm not meaning to pick on Christianity, this goes for all religions. The nature of the beast is that it's going to create more differences between people in today's world, which is the last thing we need right now. It's hard to just put those differences aside.

So that's my rant, and that's really why I dislike religion. I don't care what you believe, except that you don't bash me because I believe something different.

[Hauptmann Kauffman]

I am wholly, 100% anti-religious. Religion brings false comfort and weakens minds with illogical beliefs and arguments. NOTHING good comes from religion, and a whole crapload of bad comes form it. I can easily elaborate but im tired:cool:

[dyslexiaa]

(This is a semi-serious post.)

Theism at it's core isn't and evil or bad thing. I don't know if 'religion' in this case encompasses belief in a supreme creator..but I felt the need to say it.

I've been an athiest and I've been Catholic and right now, I'm Unitarian. I've been a pretty big defender of religion, Christianity, and whatnot in the religious topics. I've studied and researched most of the major religions and I combine other teachings with Christianity. God reveals himself in different ways, you know?

Besides that, I've come to a conclusion almost all of the problems the athiests come ranting around here with are based off their own experience with Christianity or a rebellion phase. Without a doubt, there are very intelligent athiests who I have the utmost respect for. They're the ones who don't come blowing through here with the 'Religion makes the world hate! Religion causes wars! Religion destroys all logic and makes a zombie' type arguments.

There are a lot of idiots in the Christian community, too, don't get me wrong. The face of the Christian community is plagued by fundamentalists and the mental image of priests sodomizing little boys. But the hate isn't fueled by Christianity, it's fueled by hateful people. If they didn't hate you because you're a different religion/non-believer, they would hate you because you're a different race or you dress different or because you were gay or you like weird music or you're not sexy enough. With wars and more serious matters, it's the same thing on a larger scale. There are more differences than religion that cause major wars.

And as far as numbing logic goes, most of the greatest scientists were some sort of theist. If we lived in an athiest world, I doubt many people would look into theism. The whole religious spectrum is way over most people's heads, so they just adhere to whatever is the cultural norm.

I'm not anti-religious and I'm not pro-religious. It just is what it is.

[Curthose93]

1)Theism at it's core isn't an evil or bad thing.

2)...Religion destroys all logic and makes a zombie' type arguments.

3)But the hate isn't fueled by Christianity, it's fueled by hateful people. If they didn't hate you because you're a different religion/non-believer, they would hate you because you're a different race or you dress different or because you were gay or you like weird music or you're not sexy enough.

4)And as far as numbing logic goes, most of the greatest scientists were some sort of theist.

1)Just like atheists believe it is, you believe it isn't. Whether belief in a god is good or bad is debatable, but we know how such debates always turn out.

2)Well, religion usually doesn't affect your logic in any important way, unless you're some type of scientist studying the origin of humanity, Earth, the Universe... if you're willing to accept science on these issues over your religion's teachings, then you're religious only in name.

3)I hate Christianity purely because of Christianity's effect on the world I live in. Are you saying that if I didn't hate Christianity, then I would be some kind of racist, homophobic fashion police?

4)Like who?

[Sage]

And as far as numbing logic goes, most of the greatest scientists were some sort of theist.

Because many of them lived during an era where they would be killed if they were not.

[dyslexiaa]

1)Just like atheists believe it is, you believe it isn't. Whether belief in a god is good or bad is debatable, but we know how such debates always turn out.

A belief itself isn't harmful. A belief there is no God is just as harmful as a belief there is a God.

2)Well, religion usually doesn't affect your logic in any important way, unless you're some type of scientist studying the origin of humanity, Earth, the Universe... if you're willing to accept science on these issues over your religion's teachings, then you're religious only in name.

I've read many interpretations of the Bible and an interpretation of the Qu'ran that go well with science. Religious texts aren't meant to be read as historical documents. Religion and science interlock very well, contrary to what a lot of people think.

4)Like who?
Copernicus, Galileo, Newton, Einstein, Kepler, Descartes, Mendel, Kelvin.

Because many of them lived during an era where they would be killed if they were not.

40% of scientists (today) believe in a personal God. 5% believe in the creationist version of god. The remaining 55% are doubters, agnostics, deists, and athiests. I never understood why agnostics/deists were bunched with athiests, but they are.

In my opinion, the most logical stance on God is agnostic, because there's no current evidence for or against it besides personal experiences.

[XxTheBlackDeathxX]

I Hate All Those Christians, That Come To My Home! Step In My Lawn, And Try To Talk To Me About God, Even After I Say No, I Don't Belive In God, They Won't Leave, They Start Asking Me Questions And Other Stuff, It Kinda Annoying! Then, They Try To Invite Me To Thier Church, Ask For My Phone Number, Read Me Passage From The Bible, And Other Stuff! You Don't See Atheists, Coming To Your Door And Try To Change Your View On God! The Only Reason I Dont Slam The Door On Them Is Because That's Mean! (When I Had A Job I Had To Go Door To Door And Sell The Newspaper, And I Got The Door Slammed On Me A Couple Of Times, So I Know How That Feels)


My Mom Is Mad At Me Because I Don't Belive In God, I Told Her It's Mine Choice, But Noooo! She Is Always Saying That She Going To Take Me To Church And Make The Pope Pray For Me And Other Stuff, She Says It's All My Cousion's Fault! Just Because He Doesnt Belive In God Either And I Hang Out With Him, She Blames It All On Him! I Got "Forbidden" To Hang Out With Him! Seriously, If She Belives In God And All Shouldnt She Be More Jolly And Stuff...

Well, Maybe I Don't Hate Them, Just Greatly DislikeThem!

[Talia]

I'm not anti-religious since I think everyone needs a little bit of something to believe in and to live for. Though its true that religion causes lots of problems...

[Curthose93]

Agnosticism only seems more reasonable than atheism because 96% of all humans who have ever existed(random number, but probably accurate) have believed in some form of supernatural supreme force(most of them not by choice), and so that's just what has become culturally normal. In reality, all religion is baseless fantasy. Agnosticism is more reasonable than religion, yes, but far less reasonable than atheism.

[ShatteredGlass]

I am not against religion, or violence justified for religions. I'm christian so I know that "each man shall be given according to what he was done" therefore there is no need for violence. So no i'm not really antireligion just anti violence in the name of religion.

[ShatteredGlass]

I'm a tad bit tired right now so no garuantees to the length of this post, but I'll probably go on a bit of a ramble, so bear with me...

To answer the question- Yes. I am most certainly anti-religious. I have no problem with personal beliefs, no matter how ridiculous however. If you wish you belief there is a tiny chinese teacup orbitting around the planet Saturn- go for it. That's good for you. The problem I have with religion is the way it tries to influence others, and how it excludes people.

Personally I feel it is foolish to live out your life based on a leap of faith. You can call 'faith' whatever you like, a "connection to God" or whatever, but at its core, faith is a belief without evidence. Religion, for many people, is a large part of their lives. People pray to God(s) with faith that their prayers will be answered, they change their lifestyle to fit within the teachings of their religious group.

Problem with religion #1: Changing your lifestyle for no understandable, rational reason.

I'll continue next with the concept of 'sins'. Mind you all, I am not specifically ranting against Christianity- All faiths have some sort of taboo, blasphamies, or things by different names that they do not want you to do. Certain religious people even condemn others who do these things and claim that they are "unnatural". Homosexuality is a good example of this. Masturbation is a good example of this. Religion teaches people that things of this nature are immoral.

Problem with religion #2: It makes you feel bad for being human and having human urges and desires.

Next up I'd like to mention how it excludes and shuns groups of people. You can see this throughout history and in modern times: Hundreds of years ago, the Christians spread from the Middle East throughout Europe, persecuting the various Pagan denominations who had lived there for a long time. These days, look at radical Islam in the Middle East. They are raising a new generation of children who have a sense of hate instilled into their minds, children who love death and dedicate their whole lives to slaying the infidels and becoming martyrs.

Problem with religion #3: It spreads hate and discrimination.

Lastly for now is how it tries to spread its views onto other people. Again, look no further than modern times to see an example of this. What do you have in the southern United States? Intelligent Design and Creationist groups are trying to force religious creation myths into science classrooms. Another fine example is Britain- More and more muslim immigrants settle down in Britain every year, and are attempting to take over the government by sheer power in numbers. You can now choose between going to a courthouse under British law or Sharia law in Britain, the latter of which is highly discriminatory against women's rights.

Problem with religion #4: It forces itself unto others.

Disclaimer: Things I've complained about certainly do not apply to all religious people. Again, mind you, I said I have no problem with personal beliefs. I am only against religion to the degree of extremism, such as fundamentalist christians and islamic terrorists.

Also, I'm well aware this isn't my best rant ever, anyone interested should probably check the much better one I posted in my diary some time ago (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showpost.php?p=466852&postcount=10) for a more indepth opinion from me.

I think this is an interesting topic though, hopefully this post can serve as a fair basis for religious people to debate me on.

With faith comes proof, and religion doesnt cause "hate and discrimination" the people who have a religion cause it, because nothing is evil in and of itself only when wield it so.

"Changing your life for no rational or understandable reason" hardly when God speaks to you, you get moved, and want to live better. And you want to please God which is a rational and understandable reason.

Too many times and too much time we spend saying "well its only human" use that excuse if you want, but the fact is that we alll have and immortal spirit, and we have power from God to do the "impossible" we can do anything in Christ Jesus. Use that excuse if you want, but excuses are used as bricks to create monuments of nothingness and the foundations of which will surely crumble, so yeah. And you dont have to feel bad forever, repent and your forgiven, and there you go, joy.

God's greatness cannot be contained so yeah it "forces itelf unto others" but not in a negative way, God will bless you in ways that you will not have room enough to recieve" so you who don't believe can get blessed from hanging around someone who is...that's living in the overflow.

Your arguments can so easily be dispelled by those with faith.

However, you can have your own personal beliefs because hey you can't save everyone "the Isrealites are as many as the grains of sand but only a remnant will return to glory" so not everyone will go to heaven.

But everyone who believes will

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son so that whom so ever shall believe in him shall not perish but have eternal, lasting life.

[HPstoner]

I am anti-religious because everything I have ever heard in church just doesn't sound/seem legit at all. It seems like...I dont know...mind control.

[Curthose93]

It seems like...I dont know...mind control.

That's because it is.

[Sage]

Before I start, sorry for getting rid of the white color and centering in your text. Just saves me time when splitting up quotes. Thanks.

With faith comes proof,

Faith is belief without proof.

and religion doesnt cause "hate and discrimination" the people who have a religion cause it, because nothing is evil in and of itself only when wield it so.

It's still used as an excuse for hate and discrimination.

"Changing your life for no rational or understandable reason" hardly when God speaks to you, you get moved, and want to live better.

There's nothing rational about hearing voices, whether they tell you to cure cancer or kill a million people.

And you want to please God which is a rational and understandable reason.

No, it's servitude.

Too many times and too much time we spend saying "well its only human" use that excuse if you want,

Give me an example of when this excuse is used.

but the fact is that we alll have and immortal spirit,

Prove it.

and we have power from God to do the "impossible" we can do anything in Christ Jesus.

Such as?

Use that excuse if you want, but excuses are used as bricks to create monuments of nothingness and the foundations of which will surely crumble, so yeah.

Metaphors are pretty and all, but when you use them in debates, it only makes you look as though you're trying to distort information and confuse people.

And you dont have to feel bad forever, repent and your forgiven, and there you go, joy.

As an atheist, you know who I seek forgiveness from? The people I've wronged.

God's greatness cannot be contained so yeah it "forces itelf unto others" but not in a negative way,

Negative to who? Being force-fed another person's beliefs annoys me to no end.

God will bless you in ways that you will not have room enough to recieve" so you who don't believe can get blessed from hanging around someone who is...that's living in the overflow.

"If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed." - Adolf Hitler.

Your arguments can so easily be dispelled by those with faith.

Well of course you think you've won when you rely on ignorance.

However, you can have your own personal beliefs because hey you can't save everyone "the Isrealites are as many as the grains of sand but only a remnant will return to glory" so not everyone will go to heaven.

Why would God create people who ultimately cannot be saved?

[ShatteredGlass]

Faith is belief without proof.

The bible says: When you seek me with your whole heart you will find me.

That's faith, when you say God even if you don't show yourself to me I know your there but even so I will look for you, for your will and way.


It's still used as an excuse for hate and discrimination.

Anything can be used as an excuse, that doesnt make it wrong



There's nothing rational about hearing voices, whether they tell you to cure cancer or kill a million people.

You don't "hear voices" when God speaks to you it's not like talking to someone on this earth. It's hard to explain until you personally experience it, but the best way to explain it is when you ask to know something, or have a question, you suddenly without explanation gain wisdom/understanding.

No, it's servitude.

Jesus told his disciples: But a servant does not know his masters affairs as you know mine therefore I call you friend.

When you're someone's friends you'll do something for them to make them happy, buying them gifts, hanging out, getting to know them, giving them time, do you call that servitude?

That's what a relationship with the Trinity (The father, The son, and the holy spirit) is like except so much more, it's a desire so strong to do what he teaches, it's fun, invigorating, new, it fills a void.

Give me an example of when this excuse is used.

Okay like I'll talk to my friend, let's call her...Friend M, abbreveated (FM)
FM: Crap, I got a 42
ME: Why don't you study
FM: Eh I dont feel like it
ME: You should want to better yourself
FM: I'm only human, I'm not perfect

Friend L

FL: Me and S. act like porn stars when the wind blows
ME: Rolls eyes* Why? It's not right, you should keep your thoughts and actions holy
(some arguing)
FL: Well, F.U., I'm only human I got to have "fun"

Real exp.'s that I have had.


Prove it.

Were we not just talking about faith and proof from it?

Such as?

Miracles, I can falll out of 3 story window, not land on the air conditioning machine, which I should have "technically" hit, and live, and walk

A man can be bit by a spider and walk again

A homeless boy can become a millonaire man

Addicts can quit

Victims of loss can move on

Bible says: You can move mountains, (a parable)

A man can come out of a 15 year coma...etc...


Metaphors are pretty and all, but when you use them in debates, it only makes you look as though you're trying to distort information and confuse people.


Well then let me clear it up, excuses are useless because all they do is give someone a reason not to claim responsibility for their actions and will ultimately hurt them later in life.

As an atheist, you know who I seek forgiveness from? The people I've wronged.

The bible say: Seek forgiveness from God and man.

Matthew 5:23,2423"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.




Negative to who? Being force-fed another person's beliefs annoys me to no end.

People dont always like to hear what's true

"If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed." - Adolf Hitler.

If you tell the truth not all people want to hear it.

Well of course you think you've won when you rely on ignorance.

I rely not on ignorance but on God, and his will and his way and through it I gain knowledge and understanding

Why would God create people who ultimately cannot be saved?

Because he gave us freewill so we wouldnt be under "mind control" or "brainwashed" so that we could come to Him on our own, only if we seeked, only if we wished to. Do you have a problem with free will?

[Sage]

Do you have a problem with free will?

I have a problem with free will when there are two options, and one of which will lead to eternal torment. This video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUtSM2oVy_E) sums up my opinion of theistic free-will quite well.

Also, rather than burdening myself with picking apart your post, I'll simply say this. Your arguments all fall short because they rely absolutely on the assumption that you are right, and your 'Well that's the truth, too bad if you don't wanna hear it' attitude is arrogant and condescending.

[MisterAndrews]

Religion was not made for nutjobs as much as wine was not make for heavy drinkers.



Can you at least try to be civilized. Not all religious believers are extremists, or people who try to convert everyone. Stop being so predjudist.

[Sage]

Can you at least try to be civilized. Not all religious believers are extremists, or people who try to convert everyone. Stop being so predjudist.

I think you misunderstood that post. He's saying exactly what you are. : P

[ShatteredGlass]

I have a problem with free will when there are two options, and one of which will lead to eternal torment. This video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUtSM2oVy_E) sums up my opinion of theistic free-will quite well.

Also, rather than burdening myself with picking apart your post, I'll simply say this. Your arguments all fall short because they rely absolutely on the assumption that you are right, and your 'Well that's the truth, too bad if you don't wanna hear it' attitude is arrogant and condescending.


You can have your own opinion, you can say I'm "condescending" and "arrogant" but i would disagree, and I think that I know more about how I am than you do.

And you know i feel that if you didnt have something to complain about you'd complain about that, we have free-will, oh that's not fair, on the topic of not having free-will all of a sudden "brain-wash" and "mind-control". The human race has fallen short, there are many of examples of that, one of them is you, not to say I'm perfect because I have fallen short, too, However, at least I'm trying, at least my heart, mind, and eyes are open.

I don't see how I came across as being condescending and arrogant, since you know, I'm not, I'm a very humble person and I don't consider myself above ne one else and I'll leave it at that because this is way off topic.

If you have ne thing else to say you can PM me.

[Sage]

I don't see how I came across as being condescending and arrogant, since you know, I'm not,

The human race has fallen short, there are many of examples of that, one of them is you,

This speaks for itself, I have nothing more to add to this thread. Have a nice day.

[ShatteredGlass]

The human race has fallen short, there are many of examples of that, one of them is you, not to say I'm perfect because I have fallen short, too,



Hmm....last time i checked you were not the entire human race and you were not me.

I'm done.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

1) You can have your own opinion, you can say I'm "condescending" and "arrogant" but i would disagree, and I think that I know more about how I am than you do.

2) The human race has fallen short, there are many of examples of that, one of them is you, not to say I'm perfect because I have fallen short, too,

3) However, at least I'm trying, at least my heart, mind, and eyes are open.

4) I don't see how I came across as being condescending and arrogant, since you know, I'm not,



Phew... I'll try to keep it brief...so I don't write a whole book.

1) Your vision of how other people see you is not the same... as how people actually SEE you. In our opinion it is quite arrogant to claim this self-righteous tone, and condescending to act friendly when you cannot deny how horrendous some of the things Christianity teaches you to believe (i.e. people go to hell for being HUMAN, we're damned for no justifiable reason)

2) Sure the human race has "fallen short" by YOUR standard as described in the bible. The bible sets up standards that we know are IMPOSSIBLE for any human to follow. Your biblical standards set us up to fail, and burn forever just because of our own nature (which apparently is inherently evil).

3) I don't think you've demonstrated that much open-mindedness at all. It shows with your attempt to rationalize beliefs that are blatantly damning for us, which is kind of the point (why so many are "anti-religious").

4) See number 1.