Abortion.

[nachtspiegel]

If there is a thread for this subject (and "if" is a redundant word - I know there is) merge it. Thanks.

I'm not going to go into my full views, but this point of view that I found on a MySpace blog comment pretty much sums it up:

although my reply might sound a little crass, i mean no harm to anybody. in my mind this is how i view abortion, and many people will be offended by my honesty. disregard the vulgar language.

i would define myself as pro-choice, however i believe that abortion should only be used as a last resort. i hate females that constantly open their legs but when they wind up pregnant the first place they run to the fucking abortion clinic. although my reply might sound a little crass, i mean no harm to anybody. in my mind this is how i view abortion, and many people will be offended by my honesty. disregard the vulgar language.

i would define myself as pro-choice, however i believe that abortion should only be used as a last resort. i hate females that constantly open their legs but when they wind up pregnant the first place they run to the fucking abortion clinic. close you fucking legs. simple solution.

it pains me to know that my half-sister was just turning thirteen when she had her first child and her mother [ we share the same father ] allowed her to have the baby. don't get me wrong, i love my niece with all my heart but the simple fact was - she was entirely tooo young to be having sex, let alone getting pregnant. my sister is one of those girls that is really naive and blinded by "love". nigga be like, "ashli i love you. lemme go raw" and her response is "okay. i love you too." shes not hip to the game a nigga will spit in order to get HIS. now she's almost 16 with three kids. she got pregnant when she was 15 with twins. i cant believe it she just doesn't learn.

anyways - moving on

like i said, pregnancy is also a punishment (and a blessing) for actions. if betty sue knows that she's fucking jack, tommy, and tim without protection and she gets pregnant, i will NOT sympathize with her. bitch should have kept her legs fucking closed or at least used a condom, spermicide etc. in the heat of the moment, it doesn't take that much effort to get a condom. fuck - if a muthafucka can be as passionate about putting on a condom as he is about ripping off your panties then you wouldn't need a fucking abortion.

as for girls that don't want to be single mothers, i have just one thing to say. suck that shit up and handle your fucking business. if bobby jack was only in it for the pussy, you shouldn't have gave him any. the signs were there, if you chose to ignore them, then you're a saddity bitch and you gonna have to deal with your actions. granted, you may have been in love, but the moment ya "man" decided to try and fuck in the middle of a deep conversation told you his intentions. although, not all men are like this - i grew up in the hood and i've seen this scenario way too many times. stop being a spoiled brat and go get a job to provide for your seed. and if you still see the simple muthafucka, sue his ass for child support. but if you can't find him, provide for you child the best you can - - even if that means applying for WIC and food stamps.

for those girls who think that they won't be able to afford to care for a baby: shut that shit the fuck up. you should have thought about that before you fucked him without a condom. get a job AND apply for WIC, food stamps (notice i said BOTH, fuck riding the system). during your 9 months work and save them checks, so that way you'll have money for the baby when they come. do what whatever you have to do to provide for your child. if that doesn't fit you, or you're not the "working type", give the baby up for adoption. there's nothing wrong with giving to deserving parents the chance they will never have. that doesn't mean give your baby to the next couple you see. do some background and make sure that the family is suitable for your child. but never judge a book by its cover, i've seen some of the best parents in the projects, and some of the worst in the five bedroom house in the suburbs. but if thats not what you would consider, you need to do what you need to do. don't try and put that baby through any pain.

just because you were raped, does not mean you run to the front of the abortion line. don't hold what that man did to you against that baby. the best revenge you can have against your rapist is to love that "mark" he left on you unconditionally and protect that baby from any harm. you can't carry the child of a stranger? wake up honey, the ONLY thing different between the rapist and a nigga that doesn't want anything to do with the baby is the sex. the only exception to this rule is if the girl is 10, 11, or 12. her emotions wont deem her ready to deal with being raped OR getting pregnant. but then again, who really is?

although i am not against abortion, i do not approve of it. if a girl feels like there's not another option, then i believe that she should have the choice to terminate.

part of this belief comes from the fact that i believe a fetus becomes a baby as soon as the mother knows that shes pregnant.

thank you amanda for allowing me to voice my opinion..

Discuss.

Edit: I forgot to color the green part. I didn't want to remove that and censor that person's thoughts, but I do not agree with that, so I set that part out.

[MysticalBurrito]

for those girls who think that they won't be able to afford to care for a baby: shut that shit the fuck up. you should have thought about that before you fucked him without a condom. get a job AND apply for WIC, food stamps (notice i said BOTH, fuck riding the system). during your 9 months work and save them checks, so that way you'll have money for the baby when they come. do what whatever you have to do to provide for your child. if that doesn't fit you, or you're not the "working type", give the baby up for adoption. there's nothing wrong with giving to deserving parents the chance they will never have. that doesn't mean give your baby to the next couple you see. do some background and make sure that the family is suitable for your child. but never judge a book by its cover, i've seen some of the best parents in the projects, and some of the worst in the five bedroom house in the suburbs. but if thats not what you would consider, you need to do what you need to do. don't try and put that baby through any pain.

just because you were raped, does not mean you run to the front of the abortion line. don't hold what that man did to you against that baby. the best revenge you can have against your rapist is to love that "mark" he left on you unconditionally and protect that baby from any harm. you can't carry the child of a stranger? wake up honey, the ONLY thing different between the rapist and a nigga that doesn't want anything to do with the baby is the sex.

part of this belief comes from the fact that i believe a fetus becomes a baby as soon as the mother knows that shes pregnant.

I disagree with abortion Completly

Id abortion was as easy to get as people are trying to make it i wouldnt be here now be cause my mom didnt want a baby

[Triceratops]

I disagree with abortion, entirely. It's wrong because you are taking away a poor innocent childs life before it has even begun. Aborting your child is just as bad as plunging a dagger in it's chest and throwing it into a ditch. It's murder.

I hate whores who fuck anyone who walks by and as soon as they find out they're pregnant they call the nearest abortion clinic. If you are resposible enough to drop your pants and spread your legs for a guy, then you are resposible enough to look after a baby.

Even if you were raped and became pregnant because of it, there's no excuse to resort to abortion. It's not the baby's fault some cunt forced you to have sex with them, so why should they suffer because if it? Also, if it was certain you were going to die because of giving birth, I still honestly believe abortion is the wrong way to go about it. Personally, I would sacrifice my own life for a child of my own, I would wish it all the best, I would never put myself before my own child.

If you can't handle the resposibilities of looking after a child, then put it up for adoption and make sure it goes towards a loving family. Just don't snatch away the childs chance of having a life.

[Prince_of_Peace]

The womb used to be the safest place in the world. Now, millions of innocent babies are killed before they see a daylight. How can this be called PRO-CHOICE if THE BABIES WERE NEVER GIVEN A CHANCE TO CHOOSE!!!! Did you know the cure for AIDS could have been discovered by now...but perhaps that baby ended up being shreded up into pieces by his/her own mother! ABORTION IS INTRINSICALLY EVIL and it is a very very grave sin that cries up to the heavens. In United States, President Obama has made it legal to spend tax payers money in favor of abortion. He is the commander-in-chief of this nation wherein he is suppose to protect life! He argues that life inside the womb should be defined by theologians. How can a commander-in-chief going to protect American lives if he does not know when life begins???!!!

America was once a great nation because the life of the unborn is being protected. How dare for him to use Abraham Lincoln's bible in his presidential inaguration. He swore to protect the lives of Americans using and say "...so help me God."

WAKE UP AMERICA!!!

[Camazotz]

I disagree with abortion, entirely. It's wrong because you are taking away a poor innocent child's life before it has even begun. Aborting your child is just as bad as plunging a dagger in it's chest and throwing it into a ditch. It's murder.

How can you end something that hasn't started? Contradiction.

I hate whores who fuck anyone who walks by and as soon as they find out they're pregnant they call the nearest abortion clinic. If you are responsible enough to drop your pants and spread your legs for a guy, then you are responsible enough to look after a baby.

I agree that having sex with a random guy is wrong, but it does not mean you are responsible enough to look after a baby (although it should)

Even if you were raped and became pregnant because of it, there's no excuse to resort to abortion. It's not the baby's fault some cunt forced you to have sex with them, so why should they suffer because if it? Also, if it was certain you were going to die because of giving birth, I still honestly believe abortion is the wrong way to go about it. Personally, I would sacrifice my own life for a child of my own, I would wish it all the best, I would never put myself before my own child.

I completely disagree. If a woman is raped and becomes pregnant from it, she has every right to abort it, if she never wanted it in the first place. What if a nine year-old girl is raped? Must she have the baby, even though she can't handle it on her own?
I also disagree that a baby's life is more important than my own (if I were a woman). I could always have another child, or even adopt. Why must I die for a child who might die the second it's born?

If you can't handle the responsibilities of looking after a child, then put it up for adoption and make sure it goes towards a loving family. Just don't snatch away the child's chance of having a life.
However, we do not know if the "child's" (I put child in quotes because it is technically not a child) life will be good or not. What if the child ends up being abused? What if it lives so miserably, it feels it should die, and commits suicide? Then I (if I were the mother) would feel guilty, and it would have been my fault.

[Prince_of_Peace]

Less than 2% of those mother who decided to abort their babies are victim of rape and other sexual abuse. LESS THAN TWO PERCENT.

[adam dockery]

abortion should only be legal if the woman is only 10 weeks prgnant, at this point the embrio has barely showed signs of life, therefore, its not technaly alive. But any time after that it shouldnt be allowed.

[MysticalBurrito]

Yes the baby is ALIVE it feels just like we do it can feel pain just as we can how would you like it if someone stabbed you in the head with a pair of scissors?

[Camazotz]

The womb used to be the safest place in the world.

Actually, the safest place in the world used to be in a military base.

Now, millions of innocent babies are killed before they see a daylight.

Like I said before, they cannot be "killed" if they are not born. They are referred as unborn. (As you have later in your rant)

How can this be called PRO-CHOICE if THE BABIES WERE NEVER GIVEN A CHANCE TO CHOOSE!!!!

It's called pro-choice because it is the mother's choice whether she wants to have the child or not.

Did you know the cure for AIDS could have been discovered by now...but perhaps that baby ended up being shreded up into pieces by his/her own mother! ABORTION IS INTRINSICALLY EVIL and it is a very very grave sin that cries up to the heavens.

To make you feel better, your Antichrist could have also been killed by abortion. It could have been a vicious murderer too. We never know, and it shall forever remain a mystery. Also, we cannot judge whether stopping births is evil or saintly.

In United States, President Obama has made it legal to spend tax payers money in favor of abortion. He is the commander-in-chief of this nation wherein he is suppose to protect life! He argues that life inside the womb should be defined by theologians. How can a commander-in-chief going to protect American lives if he does not know when life begins???!!!

It is his job to control and run the country, not save lives. Especially lives that haven't started.

America was once a great nation because the life of the unborn is being protected.

Although I hate to admit it, America was never a great nation. Slavery, a civil war, racism that continues to this very day, in a matter of 200 years is nothing great.

How dare for him to use Abraham Lincoln's bible in his presidential inauguration. He swore to protect the lives of Americans using and say "...so help me God."

Abraham Lincoln ended the civil war and helped end slavery. He would be proud that an African-American can finally lead our country. Again, the president's job is to lead the country, not save lives. Everybody dies, and we just have to get used over it.

WAKE UP AMERICA!!!

Wake up? Why would I want to wake up? Sleep is good for you.

Less than 2% of those mother who decided to abort their babies are victim of rape and other sexual abuse. LESS THAN TWO PERCENT.

From the statistics I have researched, you are correct. However, I fail to see the point.

[theOperaGhost]

My opinion is the ONLY justifiable reason for an abortion is a rape PROVEN in the court of law.

I would never use the reason prince joel used that "they could find a cure for AIDS" because they could just as likely be a serial killer. I just think every life deserves a chance. But if someone gets pregnant while having consensual sex, they took that risk on their own. If you don't want to deal with the consequences of an action, DON'T DO THE ACTION!

[Camazotz]

abortion should only be legal if the woman is only 10 weeks prgnant, at this point the embrio has barely showed signs of life, therefore, its not technaly alive. But any time after that it shouldnt be allowed.

However, we all have different opinions of what "alive means". In my opinion, it's not technically "alive" until it's born.

Yes the baby is ALIVE it feels just like we do it can feel pain just as we can how would you like it if someone stabbed you in the head with a pair of scissors?

We cannot prove whether the embryo or fetus can feel. Also, it's difficult to come to an understanding on what "alive" actually means.

My opinion is the ONLY justifiable reason for an abortion is a rape PROVEN in the court of law.

I would never use the reason prince joel used that "they could find a cure for AIDS" because they could just as likely be a serial killer. I just think every life deserves a chance. But if someone gets pregnant while having consensual sex, they took that risk on their own. If you don't want to deal with the consequences of an action, DON'T DO THE ACTION!

I agree with nearly your entire second paragraph. My only opinion is that if we know for a fact that the child will be born with cancer, and suffer from pain its entire life (which may only be a couple of months) why should we make it suffer? What if we know that the child will be born with something like AIDS, and we know it's entire life is going to be Hell. Maybe it would be best if it is never born, and never has to deal with it.

[Sage]

Camazotz summarised all of what I was going to say, basically. If I had not repped him earlier, I would now. My posts here are usually quite lengthy, but I believe abortion in all cases is absolutely acceptable.

It is far more merciful for a child to have never been born rather than allowing them to grow up in a world where the odds are against them- Being put up for adoption, living in foster homes, being a child of rape; all are very scarring things.

[MysticalBurrito]

However, we all have different opinions of what "alive means". In my opinion, it's not technically "alive" until it's born.



We cannot prove whether the embryo or fetus can feel. Also, it's difficult to come to an understand on what "alive" actually means

Seriously we are ALIVE which means a baby is alive when in the uterus Your alive im alive the creep down the street is alive everyone is alive!

[Sage]

Seriously we are ALIVE which means a baby is alive when in the uterus Your alive im alive the creep down the street is alive everyone is alive!

Life starts at birth. When people ask how long you've been alive, or how old you are, do you include the months you spent in your mother's womb? No, you don't.

[MysticalBurrito]

Ugh life is in the womb a babys heartbeat starts at less or more than 7 months

[Sage]

Ugh life is in the womb a babys heartbeat starts at less or more than 7 months

I still stand by my point on 'mercy'. Whether a fetus feels hurt by abortion or not is debatable, but regardless, it is nothing in comparison to a lifetime of emotional torment.

[MysticalBurrito]

What do you mean emotional torment? anthings better than dieing at a age less than 4 or 8 months!

[Sapphire]

I deem a child to be alive when it is viable outside of the womb. That is 24 weeks into the preganacy. Abortions are not allowed to be carried out after this point because of that fact. The end result is much the same as having a miscarriage in the first 24 weeks of pregnancy. So, abortion isn't killing a child. It is just terminating the development of a group of cells and preventing a live child being created.

As a victim of repeated sexual abuse, I can tell you that an abusive relationship creates a very bad environment for anyone exposed to it. It is irresponsible and selfish to knowingly bring a child into an abusive home life. Aborting it before it could even survive in the outside world isn't.
Ok, so not all rapes are within a relationship. But, the effects of rape can be debilitating and can render the woman incapable of looking after herself. It would be cruel to both the woman and the child to make her keep it.
Adoption isn't always an option because both biological parents have to consent to it. If the abusive man dissents then they can prevent any attempts of putting the baby up for adoption.

I am a strong believer that the right to abort a pregnancy is one that should be available to all. Obviously, it is not to be used willy-nilly by people. But, it should be available for those whose mental/physical health would be significantly negatively affected by giving birth; in addition to those who don't have the financial means to support a child. I have already stated why I feel those affected by rape should be allowed to abort.

[Sage]

What do you mean emotional torment? anthings better than dieing at a age less than 4 or 8 months!

I mean, if your parents can't get an abortion, they're just likely going to put you up for adoption. Do you want to live as an adopted child? It isn't pleasant. Foster parents are often terrible and the child will move through life from foster home to foster home feeling unloved.

In another situation, how would you like it if you know your mother gave birth to you when she was just a teenager, and that your father was a rapist?

Dying doesn't hurt. When you're dead, it's over. Physical pain, if any, only lasts a little while. Emotional scares will hurt you throughout your entire life.

[MysticalBurrito]

I mean, if your parents can't get an abortion, they're just likely going to put you up for adoption. Do you want to live as an adopted child? It isn't pleasant. Foster parents are often terrible and the child will move through life from foster home to foster home feeling unloved.

In another situation, how would you like it if you know your mother gave birth to you when she was just a teenager, and that your father was a rapist?

Dying doesn't hurt. When you're dead, it's over. Physical pain, if any, only lasts a little while. Emotional scares will hurt you throughout your entire life.

Dear god...........

ABORTION is wrong THE END your killing a person who cant speak for themselve and it up to people with a voice to speak for them
These little lifes are in our hands as teenagers and adults we needs to speak for the children without a voice
These little children...
I know a girl who was going to be aborted by her mom but instead she was given up for adoption she is now living a healthy normal life AND IS NOT DEAD alive is better than dead dont fight with me about this

[theOperaGhost]

Camazotz summarised all of what I was going to say, basically. If I had not repped him earlier, I would now. My posts here are usually quite lengthy, but I believe abortion in all cases is absolutely acceptable.

It is far more merciful for a child to have never been born rather than allowing them to grow up in a world where the odds are against them- Being put up for adoption, living in foster homes, being a child of rape; all are very scarring things.


By that logic we might as well just start killing off EVERYONE before they are born, since the world is a shit hole anyway. Hmm...nothing wrong with that...

And may I ask what is wrong with being put of for adoption?

[Aηdy]

I don't have a problem with abortion. I do have a problem with people who 'abuse' the ability to have an abortion. What I mean by this is people who intentionally have unprotected sex, or sleep with many different partners.

[MysticalBurrito]

Abortion is killing a baby who has no voice just because the baby cant speak for itsself doesnt mean we have the right to kill the helpless baby cold blooded

[CaptainObvious]

By that logic we might as well just start killing off EVERYONE before they are born, since the world is a shit hole anyway. Hmm...nothing wrong with that...

And may I ask what is wrong with being put of for adoption?

You know what the problem with both sides of this particular facet of the abortio debate is? It's all bullshit fallacy by composition. You point out that if life isn't worth it it would be more merciful to kill everyone. But, if life is always better than not life isn't it also immoral (from an ends point of view) to be creating suboptimal amounts of life? Shouldn't we encourage constant pregnancy and breeding, because every newlife is a blessing? Clearly not - so clearly, this can't really be a discussion of "potential lives lost" or it just becomes stupid.

Therefore, the question becomes at what point ending a life becomes unacceptable in and of itself, without stupid arguments about future potential or other crap. The answer to that question is much more nuanced, being intimately involved - in my view - with whether or not the organism in question is self-aware, something I feel has in no way been shown for most fetuses.

Continuing to scream about how fetuses are "life" is just going to fall on deaf ears. I don't care. I cause stuff to be killed all the time - I love eating meat, etc.

What you need to show is why fetuses are life that has some kind of a priori claim to independent rights. And just being a member of the human species is not enough to fit that profile.

[Camazotz]

I deem a child to be alive when it is viable outside of the womb. That is 24 weeks into the preganacy. Abortions are not allowed to be carried out after this point because of that fact. The end result is much the same as having a miscarriage in the first 24 weeks of pregnancy. So, abortion isn't killing a child. It is just terminating the development of a group of cells and preventing a live child being created.

As a victim of repeated sexual abuse, I can tell you that an abusive relationship creates a very bad environment for anyone exposed to it. It is irresponsible and selfish to knowingly bring a child into an abusive home life. Aborting it before it could even survive in the outside world isn't.
Ok, so not all rapes are within a relationship. But, the effects of rape can be debilitating and can render the woman incapable of looking after herself. It would be cruel to both the woman and the child to make her keep it.
Adoption isn't always an option because both biological parents have to consent to it. If the abusive man dissents then they can prevent any attempts of putting the baby up for adoption.

I am a strong believer that the right to abort a pregnancy is one that should be available to all. Obviously, it is not to be used willy-nilly by people. But, it should be available for those whose mental/physical health would be significantly negatively affected by giving birth; in addition to those who don't have the financial means to support a child. I have already stated why I feel those affected by rape should be allowed to abort.

Couldn't agree more. Rep +

Dear god...........

ABORTION is wrong THE END your killing a person who cant speak for themselve and it up to people with a voice to speak for them
These little lifes are in our hands as teenagers and adults we needs to speak for the children without a voice
These little children...
I know a girl who was going to be aborted by her mom but instead she was given up for adoption she is now living a healthy normal life AND IS NOT DEAD alive is better than dead dont fight with me about this

You can't kill that which is not living. We are not "fighting", we are simply debating, which is what this thread and topic is all about.

By that logic we might as well just start killing off EVERYONE before they are born, since the world is a shit hole anyway. Hmm...nothing wrong with that...

And may I ask what is wrong with being put of for adoption?

Which is why I touched lightly on the subject of adoption. I agree that adoption is good, and that many adopted children can live healthy lives. However, there are some adopted children that will always feel a void with their biological and adopted parents, as well as effect them emotionally.

I don't have a problem with abortion. I do have a problem with people who 'abuse' the ability to have an abortion. What I mean by this is people who intentionally have unprotected sex, or sleep with many different partners.

Exactly my thoughts.

Ok thats it abortion is just plain wrong everyone get it wrong!

Please, before just saying "abortion is wrong", take into consideration that abortion can have its pros. For example, consider a baby (still in the womb) with a terminal disease that can also kill the mother at child birth. But the mother can be saved if you terminate it. You are saving a life if you terminate the baby, which would suffer anyway from this disease.

[MysticalBurrito]

They kill a living life with scissors premature birth salt water ect does that sound painful to you??

[Clawhammer]

It's murder, their killing living people.

[MysticalBurrito]

It's murder, their killing living people.

YES finnaly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i totaly agree

[adam dockery]

ok, maybe the baby groes up to be a succesfull scientest, maybe it grows up to be a petifile, it doesnt matter. The choice is up to whoevers baby it is. No one else has the right t tell them that they cant do something that affects their life. And if you belive in heaven and hell, then a baby is to young to sin, so it goes to heaven, to me that sounds better than to be born into the world today.

[Clawhammer]

God has a purpose on earth for everything, and how can we fulfill that if we're dead?

[theOperaGhost]

You know what the problem with both sides of this particular facet of the abortio debate is? It's all bullshit fallacy by composition. You point out that if life isn't worth it it would be more merciful to kill everyone. But, if life is always better than not life isn't it also immoral (from an ends point of view) to be creating suboptimal amounts of life? Shouldn't we encourage constant pregnancy and breeding, because every newlife is a blessing? Clearly not - so clearly, this can't really be a discussion of "potential lives lost" or it just becomes stupid.

Therefore, the question becomes at what point ending a life becomes unacceptable in and of itself, without stupid arguments about future potential or other crap. The answer to that question is much more nuanced, being intimately involved - in my view - with whether or not the organism in question is self-aware, something I feel has in no way been shown for most fetuses.

Continuing to scream about how fetuses are "life" is just going to fall on deaf ears. I don't care. I cause stuff to be killed all the time - I love eating meat, etc.

What you need to show is why fetuses are life that has some kind of a priori claim to independent rights. And just being a member of the human species is not enough to fit that profile.

So you have to be self-aware to be considered living? Does this mean we can start killing off people who are considered vegetables? They aren't self-aware and have no societal value, so wouldn't it be perfectly fine to stop their heart and end it?

[CaptainObvious]

They kill a living life with scissors premature birth salt water ect does that sound painful to you??

It would be painful if they did that to me, but I'm not a fetus. There's just a slight difference between a developed (or even partially developed person) and most stages of fetal development, you know.

[MysticalBurrito]

Ok thats it a babys nerves develope at 5 or 8 months so the baby would feel it

[CaptainObvious]

So you have to be self-aware to be considered living? Does this mean we can start killing off people who are considered vegetables? They aren't self-aware and have no societal value, so wouldn't it be perfectly fine to stop their heart and end it?

Well we already allow loved ones to pull the plug on those in PVS. Does taking the next step further to actively killing such a person make it unacceptable? I'm not sure, quite frankly. Sitting on the fence, you might say.

Regardless, though, since the situation is not the same - there is the additional, important factor of the woman, with autonomous rights accorded to her, involved - the question is pretty much irrelevant.

Ok thats it a babys nerves develope at 5 or 8 months so the baby would feel it

Yes, and there is a line at which we must say "no more abortion after here." But unless I am rather mistaken, you're opposed to all abortion, which is a position I'm afraid you have yet to justify.

[MysticalBurrito]

Im against abortion PERIOD killing a baby is wrong and people need to know that damn

[Clawhammer]

Amen!

[MysticalBurrito]

Thank you I prove my case

[theOperaGhost]

Well we already allow loved ones to pull the plug on those in PVS. Does taking the next step further to actively killing such a person make it unacceptable? I'm not sure, quite frankly. Sitting on the fence, you might say.

Regardless, though, since the situation is not the same - there is the additional, important factor of the woman, with autonomous rights accorded to her, involved - the question is pretty much irrelevant.

Point taken. Doesn't change my personal stance on whether abortion should be legal or not, but you are correct.

Here's another somewhat comparable situation (although it is not the same). Siamese twins...one twin is part of the other. If one decided to kill the other, would it be wrong? They are part of each other, which is like a mother and their baby. This is a shitty comparison, I know it, but I'm short on time.

[Camazotz]

They kill a living life with scissors premature birth salt water ect does that sound painful to you??

Yes, but that's not how an abortion is performed, so that was irrelevant.

It's murder, their killing living people.

Again, it cannot be murder. You just said they were killing living people. They (fetuses) are not living.

ok, maybe the baby groes up to be a succesfull scientest, maybe it grows up to be a petifile, it doesnt matter. The choice is up to whoevers baby it is. No one else has the right t tell them that they cant do something that affects their life. And if you belive in heaven and hell, then a baby is to young to sin, so it goes to heaven, to me that sounds better than to be born into the world today.

For once, I actually agree with you. However, unborn children would supposedly go to purgatory, a place of nothingness for unbaptized children.

God has a purpose on earth for everything, and how can we fulfill that if we're dead?

God has nothing to do with this topic. However, to contradict you, what if God's purpose was for that fetus' to be aborted. If there were a God, you cannot prove what he wants.

So you have to be self-aware to be considered living? Does this mean we can start killing off people who are considered vegetables? They aren't self-aware and have no societal value, so wouldn't it be perfectly fine to stop their heart and end it?

Valid point.

It would be painful if they did that to me, but I'm not a fetus. There's just a slight difference between a developed (or even partially developed person) and most stages of fetal development, you know.

Also agree.

Ok thats it a babys nerves develope at 5 or 8 months so the baby would feel it

What if you abort it less than 5 months before it's born? Then it would not feel it. You are not proving anything. You are merely stating that killing is wrong, which I agree with. However, I disagree with you completely because you can't kill something that is not living (as I have stated numerous times)

[Clawhammer]

We have the Bible, and how do you know they aren't living? A fetus is a living person developing in the womb. prove me wrong.

[theOperaGhost]

Amen!

Thank you I prove my case


Please make posts that contribute to the debate...thank you.

[MysticalBurrito]

Ok this topic is pissing me off A ABORTION IS done with saline and and seaweed to induce birth
And i was wrong i looked it up a babys nerve start to develope right after the body does


Ok sorry

[CaptainObvious]

Ok this topic is pissing me off A ABORTION IS done with saline and and seaweed to induce birth
And i was wrong i looked it up a babys nerve start to develope right after the body does

>.<

Nerves start to develop soon after fertilization. But it's not the start that matters, it's when sufficient nerve development occurs to allow the fetus to be aware of and feel pain. Most neurologists agree this happens sometime near the beginning of the formation of thalamocortical connections, in the ~26th week.

[MysticalBurrito]

Ok im going to just say its wrong and everyone who hold the device that kills them has unspoken blood on there hands

[Camazotz]

We have the Bible

Congratulations...But what does this prove? The Bible nowhere states that you cannot have an abortion. Even if it did, it was written by Man, not God (which does not exist, and would appreciate if we can refrain from religion in a topic of abortion)

A fetus is a living person developing in the womb. prove me wrong.

Okay..."an unborn or unhatched vertebrate especially after attaining the basic structural plan of its kind ; specifically : a developing human from usually two months after conception to birth" http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fetus From the definition, a fetus is not
living, and is not yet a person.

Ok this topic is pissing me off A ABORTION IS done with saline and and seaweed to induce birth
And i was wrong i looked it up a babys nerve start to develope right after the body does

Ok sorry

I'm confused with what you just said. Would you mind clarifying what you meant?

[adam dockery]

how can u say something that hasnt took a breath yet be Living?
just like camozots said, who cared if u have the bible, god has noting to do with it,

[Mzor203]

Hmm... so, why is it ok to take away a chicken egg that has the potential to become life, and eat it? Taking away an unborn human that is not alive is the same as taking away that baby chick's chance for life.

Don't say human life is more valuable. Human life has been one of the worst things to happen in the history of this planet. We pretty much came in and fucked it up.

Tell me that and I'll get back to you. ;)

[MysticalBurrito]

Yes he does he is the one who created me and you
Give me proof that god doent exist and that he didnt create a baby who is going to get aborted

[adam dockery]

im ot sayin he doesnt exsist, its just not up to u and me to say that god didnt want this kid to be aborted, every person who is born has a purposs, maybe this fetus's purpose was to die

[MysticalBurrito]

STOP IT! everyone was meant to live life is precous YES sometimes it shitty and people say we fucked up the planet but everyone was meant to live DAMNIT

[Camazotz]

As I already asked, please keep religion out of this particular debate.

Hmm... so, why is it ok to take away a chicken egg that has the potential to become life, and eat it? Taking away an unborn human that is not alive is the same as taking away that baby chick's chance for life.

Don't say human life is more valuable. Human life has been one of the worst things to happen in the history of this planet. We pretty much came in and fucked it up.

Tell me that and I'll get back to you. ;)

I agree with you Rex, all life should be valued equally. We are not better just because we are human.

[Mzor203]

STOP IT! everyone was meant to live life is precous YES sometimes it shitty and people say we fucked up the planet but everyone was meant to live DAMNIT

Then why are you eating those eggs that could become baby chickens if all life is precious?

[MysticalBurrito]

Dear god im a vegan

This procedure is used to abort women who are 20 to 32 weeks pregnant -- or even later into pregnancy.* Guided by ultrasound, the abortionist reaches into the uterus, grabs the unborn baby’s leg with forceps, and pulls the baby into the birth canal, except for the head, which is deliberately kept just inside the womb. (At this point in a partial-birth abortion, the baby is alive.) Then the abortionist jams scissors into the back of the baby’s skull and spreads the tips of the scissors apart to enlarge the wound. After removing the scissors, a suction catheter is inserted into the skull and the baby’s brains are sucked out. The collapsed head is then removed from the uterus.

[adam dockery]

obviously we cant change her mind, shes wrong.. but let her have her opinion

[MysticalBurrito]

Would you kill a puppy watch as it slowly dies??
That is like watching a baby slowly die

[Mzor203]

No, the baby doesn't 'die' because it isn''t alive yet. It doesn't die 'slowly' either, because it just... doesn't have any feelings... lol...

[adam dockery]

how is a puppy anything about wat we are talkin about. that was just dumb. And how many times do we have to say this, a fetus isnt alive!

[Camazotz]

obviously we cant change her mind, shes wrong.. but let her have her opinion

I wouldn't say that necessarily, however she has not proved good enough evidence to support her theory.

Would you kill a puppy watch as it slowly dies??

But the puppy is living. I wouldn't kill a living being. However, I would terminate cells inside the body if it has a justifiable reason.

That is like watching a baby slowly die

Except for the fact that it's not dying. I've already stated countless times that without being born, it cannot have life. Therefore, you cannot kill a fetus, only destroy cells inside a body.

[theOperaGhost]

The only thing that is being debated here is when the starting point of life is. I don't believe ANY of you have the answer to that.

I will hold my views on abortion no matter what ANYONE says, because I think it is wrong. Just because I personally think it is wrong doesn't mean I'm going to try stop someone else from having one, nor would I look any differently at someone who has had one. I personally can only see rape as a justifiable reason to have one.

Please keep in mind that this is NOT a religious debate, thank you.

[Perseus]

Oh my God....
I know how an abortion happens and it is Fucked up beyond all belief!
I almost cried when I heard how abortionists killed fetuses.
If the cells are alive in a fetus, doesn't that mean it is alive too?
Abortion isn't right, if you knew how they killed them you might change your views slightly because it is not moral and it is just fucked up....
You are depriving a human of a chance to do soemthing good to this Earth..

[MysticalBurrito]

I agree with Jared BUT im going to try and stop abortion dont say im only one person I KNOW im only one person but one person can do alot if that person is really against it

http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/ASMF/asmf14.html
Check it out if you dont want to dont click it one more thing
"Hate me for what I am against and ignore me OR you can help me for what I am trying to stop"
A friend said that

[Oblivion]

I would first off never have unprotected sex [probably not any sex really] before I was ready. If I did by chance, however, I would ask whoever it was with to take the morning after pill.
If by chance that didn't work, I would probably not ask her to get an abortion.
I personally wouldn't choose to do it, but I'm pro-choice.

Because:
It's the woman's body, not property of the United States.
One mistake, when hormones are flowing like water down the toilet, shouldn't determine a girls or guys life, nor should the baby have to deal with likely one parent, and a hard upbringing.
Technically, the baby isn't alive. So no one is dying.

And the 'he could be someone' argument is actually rather ridiculous.
He could be- actually is probably more likely to be, since they would most likely have a hard upbringing -a serial killer as well.

[Sage]

You are depriving a human of a chance to do soemthing good to this Earth..

Humans do nothing good for this Earth. We work for ourselves. If all insects died, all other life on earth would die shortly after. If all humans died, all life on earth would flourish.

[Camazotz]

I agree with Jared BUT im going to try and stop abortion dont say im only one person I KNOW im only one person but one person can do alot if that person is really against it

http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/ASMF/asmf14.html
Check it out if you dont want to dont click it one more thing
"Hate me for what I am against and ignore me OR you can help me for what I am trying to stop"
A friend said that

I read your article to see if there was any good evidence to prove abortions were bad. All your link proves is that people feel guilty. Guilt is very normal, especially when they (women who have had abortions) are led to believe abortions are morally "wrong" by peers, religious beliefs, etc. If someone were happy to have an abortion, I'm sure they wouldn't have Post-Abortion Syndrome.

"Hate me for what I am against and ignore me OR you can help me for what I am trying to stop"
A friend said that

I choose the third option. I do not hate you and I do not ignore you, but I will not help you for something I don't believe in.

I would first off never have unprotected sex [probably not any sex really] before I was ready. If I did by chance, however, I would ask whoever it was with to take the morning after pill.
If by chance that didn't work, I would probably not ask her to get an abortion.
I personally wouldn't choose to do it, but I'm pro-choice.

Because:
It's the woman's body, not property of the United States.
One mistake, when hormones are flowing like water down the toilet, shouldn't determine a girls or guys life, nor should the baby have to deal with likely one parent, and a hard upbringing.
Technically, the baby isn't alive. So no one is dying.

And the 'he could be someone' argument is actually rather ridiculous.
He could be- actually is probably more likely to be, since they would most likely have a hard upbringing -a serial killer as well.

Completely agree!

Humans do nothing good for this Earth. We work for ourselves. If all insects died, all other life on earth would die shortly after. If all humans died, all life on earth would flourish.

While that's debatable, I agree that humans have a tendency to be selfish, naive, and greedy.

[Perseus]

Humans do nothing good for this Earth. We work for ourselves. If all insects died, all other life on earth would die shortly after. If all humans died, all life on earth would flourish.

Yes, Im aware of this Tony, I know if we disappeared, all life would be better, isnce they would have more land and no pollution, but thats another subject.
And, Tony, why do you think that someone should be deprived life?(Sorry, if you already stated that, I have horrible memory on something someone has posted).

[Oblivion]

Someone isn't being deprived of life.
The thing growing in a female's body isn't a 'someone' until it's reached a certain stage in the pregnancy, where it is then illegal to have an abortion [I think, correct me if I'm wrong.].

[Mzor203]

Oh my God....
I know how an abortion happens and it is Fucked up beyond all belief!
I almost cried when I heard how abortionists killed fetuses.
If the cells are alive in a fetus, doesn't that mean it is alive too?
Abortion isn't right, if you knew how they killed them you might change your views slightly because it is not moral and it is just fucked up....
You are depriving a human of a chance to do soemthing good to this Earth..

The individual cells in a fetus may be alive. However, so are the cells in your nose. Every time you scratch your nose, more cells than those in a fetus die.

[Camazotz]

Someone isn't being deprived of life.
The thing growing in a female's body isn't a 'someone' until it's reached a certain stage in the pregnancy, where it is then illegal to have an abortion [I think, correct me if I'm wrong.].

You are correct. For medical purposes, a woman is not allowed to have an abortion after 18 weeks (in some countries, including the US). For more countries, look here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-term_abortion

On a side note, Rex got a name change...

[Church]

I support abortion and peoples choice, but I don't think you should have a abortion if the baby can live without being in the mothers womb

[Sapphire]

We have the Bible, and how do you know they aren't living? A fetus is a living person developing in the womb. prove me wrong.The Bible doesn't prove anything. It is a collection of writings by people from 2,000 years ago. The scientific knowledge we have now outweighs any so-called argument put forward by the Bible.

Yes he does he is the one who created me and you
Give me proof that god doent exist and that he didnt create a baby who is going to get abortedThere is no proof that he does exist. There is no proof that he is what creates us. It works both ways so your "argument" if it can be called that breaks down.

This procedure is used to abort women who are 20 to 32 weeks pregnant -- or even later into pregnancyThis is VERY inaccurate. Most countries don't allow abortions after 24 weeks into the pregnancy because the child is viable outside of the womb at this point. You will be very hard pushed to find a developed country that allows abortions beyond that.
In 1990 the time limit for most abortions was reduced from 28 to 24 weeks in order to take account of the increasing ability of medical staff to keep premature babies alive.Quote from http://www.efc.org.uk/Foryoungpeople/Factsaboutabortion/Viability

I would first off never have unprotected sex [probably not any sex really] before I was ready. If I did by chance, however, I would ask whoever it was with to take the morning after pill.
If by chance that didn't work, I would probably not ask her to get an abortion.
I personally wouldn't choose to do it, but I'm pro-choice.

Because:
It's the woman's body, not property of the United States.
One mistake, when hormones are flowing like water down the toilet, shouldn't determine a girls or guys life, nor should the baby have to deal with likely one parent, and a hard upbringing.
Technically, the baby isn't alive. So no one is dying.

And the 'he could be someone' argument is actually rather ridiculous.
He could be- actually is probably more likely to be, since they would most likely have a hard upbringing -a serial killer as well.
I also agree with you completely.

[MysticalBurrito]

Abortion is killing a person that as soon as they get out of the womb their mind starts to grow and they get to know whats on earth and the joys of life their laugh,their little feet their eyes their hands the size of less than half of ours
Some mothers report having nightmares after a abortion hearing the laughs and little padding feet running though the house after words they think abbout how wrong they where too kill the unopened eyes of their little baby they didnt know how much they loved that little life that person started with another person
Doctors say the baby cant feel it as they shove the needle or scissors into the babys head THERES PROOF in video of babys trying to get away from the pain of the abortion. So dont say they cant feel it.

The emergence of chemical abortion methods poses a new possibly more devastating psychological threat. Unlike surgical abortions, in which women rarely see the cut up body parts, women having chemical abortions often do see the complete tiny bodies of their unborn children and are even able to distinguish the child’s developing hands, eyes, etc. [107] So traumatic is this for some women that both patients and researchers involved in these studies have recommended that women unprepared for the experience of seeing their aborted children not take the drugs.

Some children hae been lucky to survive and live happy lives now
Those people who want to call themselve doctors are carrying the blood and screams of unheard voices on their shoulders.
these unheard voices need our help to save them them these babies hae a life a heart that is beating...The baby starts to suck on its thumb at the age of 5 months old
It hears music that the moms plays it can hear her voice
The baby deserves a chance to live just like we do
Salt Otherwise known as "saline amniocentesis," "salting out," or a "hypertonic saline" abortion, this technique is used after 16 weeks of pregnancy, when enough fluid has accumulated in the amniotic fluid sac surrounding the baby.

A needle is inserted through the mother’s abdomen and 50-250 ml (as much as a cup) of amniotic fluid is withdrawn and replaced with a solution of concentrated salt. [53] The baby breathes in, swallowing the salt, and is poisoned.[54] The chemical solution also causes painful burning and deterioration of the baby’s skin. [55] Usually, after about an hour, the child dies. The mother goes into labor about 33 to 35 hours after instillation and delivers a dead, burned, and shriveled baby. [56] About 97% of mothers deliver their dead babies within 72 hours.[57]

Hypertonic saline may initiate a condition in the mother called "consumption coagulopathy" (uncontrolled blood clotting throughout the body) with severe hemorrhage as well as other serious side effects on the central nervous system. [58] Seizures, coma, or death may also result from saline inadvertently injected into the woman’s vascular system.[59]
Urea

Because of the dangers associated with saline methods, other instillation methods such as hypersomolar urea are sometimes employed, [60] though these are less effective and usually must be supplemented by oxytocin or a prostaglandin in order to achieve the desired result. [61] Incomplete or failed abortion remains a problem with urea methods, often precipitating the additional risk of surgery

Prostaglandins are naturally produced chemical compounds which normally assist in the birthing process. The injection of concentrations of artificial prostaglandins prematurely into the amniotic sac induces violent labor and the birth of a child usually too young to survive. Often salt or another toxin is first injected to ensure that the baby will be delivered dead, [63] since some babies have survived the trauma of a prostaglandin birth and been born alive. [64] This method is used during the second trimester. [65]


If you made it all the way through this I thank you for reading

[Triceratops]

obviously we cant change her mind, shes wrong.. but let her have her opinion

Karina isn't wrong, she has her point as like everyone else does.
She has strong and reasonable opinions, you shouldn't try to change it just because you disagree with it.

[MysticalBurrito]

:D thank you also another point is yes the babies can feel it when they get killed by doctors there is proof on videos

[redcar]

So a woman who is raped and becomes pregnant should carry on with the pregnancy?

A baby who will most certainly die when born or live in agonising pain should go full term?

What if the mothers health even life could be at risk by going full term?

I think abortion debates are useless because you always get people on both sides of the coin who won't back down and for that reason I bow out, but this needs to be moved to Ramblings of the Wise, because a debate will only occur on this issue.

(I remember when I could move things! :P)

[theOperaGhost]

Moved to ROTW and merged with the abortion debate already occurring.

[Camazotz]

Abortion is killing a person that as soon as they get out of the womb their mind starts to grow and they get to know whats on earth and the joys of life their laugh,their little feet their eyes their hands the size of less than half of ours

You can't kill something that hasn't been born. You are simply not allowing it to be born. Joys of life...Economic crisis, crime, war, famine, etc. Not very joyful if you ask me. (Almost) everybody has feet, eyes, and hands. What's the big deal?


Some mothers report having nightmares after a abortion hearing the laughs and little padding feet running though the house after words they think abbout how wrong they where too kill the unopened eyes of their little baby they didnt know how much they loved that little life that person started with another person

As I said in a previous post, it's guilt. We all feel guilty. Women who have had abortions feel guilty because they think abortions are bad. If a woman were happy to have an abortion, she wouldn't experience PAS (Post-Abortion Syndrome). Also, I find it strange that they loved something that they never had.

Doctors say the baby cant feel it as they shove the needle or scissors into the babys head THERES PROOF in video of babys trying to get away from the pain of the abortion. So dont say they cant feel it.

I assume you meant "Doctors say the baby can feel it..." Besides that I would like some evidence to support this, and until then, I will say the fetus cannot feel it.

Some children hae been lucky to survive and live happy lives now
Those people who want to call themselve doctors are carrying the blood and screams of unheard voices on their shoulders.
these unheard voices need our help to save them them these babies hae a life a heart that is beating...The baby starts to suck on its thumb at the age of 5 months old
It hears music that the moms plays it can hear her voice
The baby deserves a chance to live just like we do

I'm sure not all people that survive an abortion would be happy if they knew that their mother tried to have an abortion. "People who call themselves doctors"? You don't think abortionists have a medical degree? And what does sucking your thumb have anything to do with abortions?

If you made it all the way through this I thank you for reading

You're welcome.

:D thank you also another point is yes the babies can feel it when they get killed by doctors there is proof on videos

May I see these videos?

So a woman who is raped and becomes pregnant should carry on with the pregnancy?

A baby who will most certainly die when born or live in agonising pain should go full term?

What if the mothers health even life could be at risk by going full term?

I think abortion debates are useless because you always get people on both sides of the coin who won't back down and for that reason I bow out, but this needs to be moved to Ramblings of the Wise, because a debate will only occur on this issue.

(I remember when I could move things! :P)

Great points Alex.

[upright_citizen]

if you want to get into labels I am pro-choice. why? because I don't think government or religion should have any right to tell us what we can and cannot do with our bodies and they do not have the right to control us in such a way. I am not just pro-choice in the matter of a woman can get an abortion if she wants to but I support ALL choices a woman can make whether it be abortion, adoption, or keeping the baby. I don't think any woman should be forced to carry something she doesn't want in her body for 9 months and then be forced to go into hours of labor birthing a child when she doesn't want to do so. pregnancy is extremely hard on a womans body and a woman is more at risk of developing a mental illness such as post partum depression, post partum psychosis, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, and anxiety disorders than a woman who has had an abortion. not all women who have abortions feel guilty and hate themselves or wish they had never made the choice to abort. there are plenty of women out in the world who are happy they had the choice to abort at the time of their unwanted pregnancy and have their own families now. everyone has their own reasons as to why to have an abortion and most are ones that you could never understand unless you yourself were ever to be in that situation. I think its unfair for anyone to judge and call a woman who has/had an unwanted pregnancy a slut or state that she shouldn't have had sex if she couldn't handle the consequences. most women who have an unwanted pregnancy did use contraceptives such as condoms, birth control, or both. as we all know none of those are 100% effective and the only real method that is 100% effective is abstinence, but we can't expect adults to not have sex as a healthy sex life leads to a healthy body and mind, it is good for us but only when we are prepared and mentally ready for those steps. to sum this up before this gets longer, no one has a right to tell anyone whether it be a man or woman how they can handle their body. no one has a right to get involved with anyones personal lives. and no one has a right to make decisions and choices for other people either. let people live their own lives and worry about your own.

on a sidenote I'd like to say a few things to Freak_Of_Nature,
you are very uninformed about abortions. doctors performing the abortion procedure do not jam scissors in anyones head. what you are talking about is a procedure called intact d and x (or to pro-lifers "partial birth abortion") and only happens when there is a risk to the mother. that procedure only make up for 0.17% of all abortions and less than 2% of abortions are done after 20 weeks. the saline that you keep talking about is called an induced labor and only makes up for 1% of all abortions. the most common procedure is vacuum aspiration which is used up until 12 weeks. I'd really appreciate it if you'd take the time to visit a non biased non pro-life site to learn what you're talking about. a good site is http://www.guttmacher.org as its a non biased medical website and gives you the straight up facts from a non pro-choice or pro-life viewpoint.
and i also think before you preach adoption that you should know that our system is overcrowded with children waiting to be adopted and there are waiting lists for people who want to adopt. another thing you should think about is our current global over population. maybe its a shame that these children in your view are being killed but think about the millions of children who were born into this world and are living in poverty, abuse, living with diseases, starving, and dying. I'm not trying to justify abortion but each abortion is one less child having to live through extreme hardships, or it gives us more time to help those children already living in situations like that before yet another one is born into that life. you also have no idea how much it costs to raise a child, especially one with a disability.
you need to do some research into these things before you go around preaching about how we need to save "innocent little children" who are being "killed" before they even get a chance to live. there is so, so, so much more to raising a child than you think and getting an abortion isn't the easiest decision in the world either. both come with pros and cons. but you can't save everyone. if everyone was to be saved from death than this world would be more over crowded than it already is.

[Sapphire]

if you want to get into labels I am pro-choice. why? because I don't think government or religion should have any right to tell us what we can and cannot do with our bodies and they do not have the right to control us in such a way. I am not just pro-choice in the matter of a woman can get an abortion if she wants to but I support ALL choices a woman can make whether it be abortion, adoption, or keeping the baby. I don't think any woman should be forced to carry something she doesn't want in her body for 9 months and then be forced to go into hours of labor birthing a child when she doesn't want to do so. pregnancy is extremely hard on a womans body and a woman is more at risk of developing a mental illness such as post partum depression, post partum psychosis, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, and anxiety disorders than a woman who has had an abortion. not all women who have abortions feel guilty and hate themselves or wish they had never made the choice to abort. there are plenty of women out in the world who are happy they had the choice to abort at the time of their unwanted pregnancy and have their own families now. everyone has their own reasons as to why to have an abortion and most are ones that you could never understand unless you yourself were ever to be in that situation. I think its unfair for anyone to judge and call a woman who has/had an unwanted pregnancy a slut or state that she shouldn't have had sex if she couldn't handle the consequences. most women who have an unwanted pregnancy did use contraceptives such as condoms, birth control, or both. as we all know none of those are 100% effective and the only real method that is 100% effective is abstinence, but we can't expect adults to not have sex as a healthy sex life leads to a healthy body and mind, it is good for us but only when we are prepared and mentally ready for those steps. to sum this up before this gets longer, no one has a right to tell anyone whether it be a man or woman how they can handle their body. no one has a right to get involved with anyones personal lives. and no one has a right to make decisions and choices for other people either. let people live their own lives and worry about your own.

on a sidenote I'd like to say a few things to Freak_Of_Nature,
you are very uninformed about abortions. doctors performing the abortion procedure do not jam scissors in anyones head. what you are talking about is a procedure called intact d and x (or to pro-lifers "partial birth abortion") and only happens when there is a risk to the mother. that procedure only make up for 0.17% of all abortions and less than 2% of abortions are done after 20 weeks. the saline that you keep talking about is called an induced labor and only makes up for 1% of all abortions. the most common procedure is vacuum aspiration which is used up until 12 weeks. I'd really appreciate it if you'd take the time to visit a non biased non pro-life site to learn what you're talking about. a good site is http://www.guttmacher.org as its a non biased medical website and gives you the straight up facts from a non pro-choice or pro-life viewpoint.
and i also think before you preach adoption that you should know that our system is overcrowded with children waiting to be adopted and there are waiting lists for people who want to adopt. another thing you should think about is our current global over population. maybe its a shame that these children in your view are being killed but think about the millions of children who were born into this world and are living in poverty, abuse, living with diseases, starving, and dying. I'm not trying to justify abortion but each abortion is one less child having to live through extreme hardships, or it gives us more time to help those children already living in situations like that before yet another one is born into that life. you also have no idea how much it costs to raise a child, especially one with a disability.
you need to do some research into these things before you go around preaching about how we need to save "innocent little children" who are being "killed" before they even get a chance to live. there is so, so, so much more to raising a child than you think and getting an abortion isn't the easiest decision in the world either. both come with pros and cons. but you can't save everyone. if everyone was to be saved from death than this world would be more over crowded than it already is.
Well put :)

[theOperaGhost]

It pisses me off that there are so god damn many unwanted pregnancies. What the hell are people thinking?? If you don't want to get pregnant, don't frickin fool around...simple as that! (this obviously excludes rape, because there is no choice in that)

[MysticalBurrito]

I agree with you there people think they are mature enough to have sex then its like "Oh woops forgot a condom Lets go abort this baby!"

[phish]

The womb used to be the safest place in the world. Now, millions of innocent babies are killed before they see a daylight. How can this be called PRO-CHOICE if THE BABIES WERE NEVER GIVEN A CHANCE TO CHOOSE!!!! Did you know the cure for AIDS could have been discovered by now...but perhaps that baby ended up being shreded up into pieces by his/her own mother! ABORTION IS INTRINSICALLY EVIL and it is a very very grave sin that cries up to the heavens. In United States, President Obama has made it legal to spend tax payers money in favor of abortion. He is the commander-in-chief of this nation wherein he is suppose to protect life! He argues that life inside the womb should be defined by theologians. How can a commander-in-chief going to protect American lives if he does not know when life begins???!!!

America was once a great nation because the life of the unborn is being protected. How dare for him to use Abraham Lincoln's bible in his presidential inaguration. He swore to protect the lives of Americans using and say "...so help me God."

WAKE UP AMERICA!!!




Thank you well put!

[MysticalBurrito]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cg_zhEIpTjs

Watch this a person survived abortion and she has a good point

[Camazotz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cg_zhEIpTjs

Watch this a person survived abortion and she has a good point

Gianna Jessen doesn't die easy? Everybody dies, because it is quite easy. Religion doesn't have anything to do with abortion.

That was a summary of the video. A whole lot of preaching and nothing else. I would appreciate evidence of how the fetus feels in the womb.

[MysticalBurrito]

Here i have a vidoe of a abortion i dont know if its graphic or not but i think i shows how the baby can feel it i couldnt watch it its terrible how we as human beings can kill our own kind
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvshMADC7s0&playnext_from=PL&feature=PlayList&p=496AB0FBA5F0EA9A&index=4

[Sapphire]

Here i have a vidoe of a abortion i dont know if its graphic or not but i think i shows how the baby can feel it i couldnt watch it its terrible how we as human beings can kill our own kind
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvshMADC7s0&playnext_from=PL&feature=PlayList&p=496AB0FBA5F0EA9A&index=4
Firstly, that video would be much more persuasive if it was impartial.
It has a tendency to talk as if abortionists didn't learn what happens during an abortion in medical school and portrays them as ignorant in their own profession.

As far as the content of the video goes, it shows that the fetus has the natural survival instinct. Nothing more. It shows us that it is developing and has the potential to be a human being. But, apart from that it behaves in much the same way as any organism does when faced with danger. Bacteria even have the survival instinct so it doesn't prove that the fetus knows what is going on or feel it.

[MysticalBurrito]

Firstly, that video would be much more persuasive if it was impartial.
It has a tendency to talk as if abortionists didn't learn what happens during an abortion in medical school and portrays them as ignorant in their own profession.

As far as the content of the video goes, it shows that the fetus has the natural survival instinct. Nothing more. It shows us that it is developing and has the potential to be a human being. But, apart from that it behaves in much the same way as any organism does when faced with danger. Bacteria even have the survival instinct so it doesn't prove that the fetus knows what is going on or feel it.

The baby did feel it if you didnt watch it hard enough it kept trying to get away from what was hurting it just like me and you do that wasnt a "instinct"
it was a human baby trying to get away from the pain of being torn to shreds doesnt anyone get it?
when you touch something overheatingly hot and take your hand away what if your hand was pressed there and you couldnt get away? you would feel the pain as did the baby in that footage and if anyone can watch that and only think oh well no problem seen there THAT WAS A BABY GETTING KILLED BY THE COLD CRUEL HANDS OF SOCITY.......
if you dont care thats your opition im keeping mine through whatever people say..
Give me a negitive Rep i dont really care this is what i believe and what i will always believe God didnt create life so it could be killed...

[Sapphire]

The baby did feel it if you didnt watch it hard enough it kept trying to get away from what was hurting it just like me and you do that wasnt a "instinct"
it was a human baby trying to get away from the pain of being torn to shreds doesnt anyone get it?
when you touch something overheatingly hot and take your hand away what if your hand was pressed there and you couldnt get away? you would feel the pain as did the baby in that footage and if anyone can watch that and only think oh well no problem seen there THAT WAS A BABY GETTING KILLED BY THE COLD CRUEL HANDS OF SOCITY.......
if you dont care thats your opition im keeping mine through whatever people say..
It is instinct to avoid pain and danger. It is innate to protect yourself.
How you can say that the automatic drive to survive is not instinct?
The most basic drive experienced by organisms is the instinct to survive. This is why animals hide or fight when threatened by another. We know it as the fight or flight response and it is characterised by increased heart rate which was observed in the video.
You can't prove that the fetus was aware of the situation. All that can be proved is that it has the universal, basic drive of survival.

I am not saying that there is no problem. But, I see it's value as a procedure for the reasons I have previously stated.

[MysticalBurrito]

Theres no value in killing a life............
I wouldnt exist if abortion was so easy to get as it is now-a-days
i value my life
I thank God for everyday i am alive.
Dont you think that baby was mean to live somewhere outside of the womb?
That was the ending of a life.. a precous little life that should be alive today in someones loving tender arms..
My Aunt Freda wanted a baby but she was infertile she died before she ever knew the joy of having a baby she never knew what it was like to look down at the little face..INSTEAD in her tiem they where killing helpless babys a women she was going to adopt from had last second thoughts and had a abortion my Aunt cried for the baby she didnt know.
over 44,000 babys are killed a year..
just one less smile or laugh to be heard one less person to see a sunny day.
One more baby to be throw away into a dumpster behind a clinic the babys dont even get a grave even crinamals get a grave btu the inecent babys who didnt do anything wrong get throw away...

[Camazotz]

It is instinct to avoid pain and danger. It is innate to protect yourself.
How you can say that the automatic drive to survive is not instinct?
The most basic drive experienced by organisms is the instinct to survive. This is why animals hide or fight when threatened by another. We know it as the fight or flight response and it is characterised by increased heart rate which was observed in the video.
You can't prove that the fetus was aware of the situation. All that can be proved is that it has the universal, basic drive of survival.

I am not saying that there is no problem. But, I see it's value as a procedure for the reasons I have previously stated.

I agree with Heather. Everything has an instinct to avoid danger, even a fetus and even bacteria. It's nothing special about a fetus.

Theres no value in killing a life............
I wouldnt exist if abortion was so easy to get as it is now-a-days
i value my life
I thank God for everyday i am alive.
Dont you think that baby was mean to live somewhere outside of the womb?
That was the ending of a life.. a precous little life that should be alive today in someones loving tender arms..
My Aunt Freda wanted a baby but she was infertile she died before she ever knew the joy of having a baby she never knew what it was like to look down at the little face..INSTEAD in her tiem they where killing helpless babys a women she was going to adopt from had last second thoughts and had a abortion my Aunt cried for the baby she didnt know.
over 44,000 babys are killed a year..
just one less smile or laugh to be heard one less person to see a sunny day.
One more baby to be throw away into a dumpster behind a clinic the babys dont even get a grave even crinamals get a grave btu the inecent babys who didnt do anything wrong get throw away...

Sometimes the parents wouldn't be able to support the child, and it would have a terrible life. A fetus doesn't know what life will be like, so "killing" it wouldn't feel like anything.

[theOperaGhost]

I'm well aware of the fact that there are people that can't support the child, hence why I support adoption so much. Adoption is a much better means than abortion.

[Sage]

Theres no value in killing a life............
I wouldnt exist if abortion was so easy to get as it is now-a-days
i value my life
I thank God for everyday i am alive.
Dont you think that baby was mean to live somewhere outside of the womb?
That was the ending of a life.. a precous little life that should be alive today in someones loving tender arms..
My Aunt Freda wanted a baby but she was infertile she died before she ever knew the joy of having a baby she never knew what it was like to look down at the little face..INSTEAD in her tiem they where killing helpless babys a women she was going to adopt from had last second thoughts and had a abortion my Aunt cried for the baby she didnt know.
over 44,000 babys are killed a year..
just one less smile or laugh to be heard one less person to see a sunny day.
One more baby to be throw away into a dumpster behind a clinic the babys dont even get a grave even crinamals get a grave btu the inecent babys who didnt do anything wrong get throw away...

It's a wonder to me why the pro-choice side of this argument doesn't carefully word their arguments to pluck at people's heart strings.

[Camazotz]

I'm well aware of the fact that there are people that can't support the child, hence why I support adoption so much. Adoption is a much better means than abortion.

I also support adoption, however sometimes life in adoption can be tough. Dealing with the fact that you were abandoned can really bother some people, and make a void their entire life. It can bother them for the rest of their life, and they might never meet their biological parents. Some people like the fact that they don't have to see their biological parents, but some people can't handle it.

It's a wonder to me why the pro-choice side of this argument doesn't carefully word their arguments to pluck at people's heart strings.

Agreed.

[theOperaGhost]

I also support adoption, however sometimes life in adoption can be tough. Dealing with the fact that you were abandoned can really bother some people, and make a void their entire life. It can bother them for the rest of their life, and they might never meet their biological parents. Some people like the fact that they don't have to see their biological parents, but some people can't handle it.


I have yet to meet an adopted person that couldn't deal with the fact that they were adopted. I personally find it to be a blessing. If I wouldn't have been adopted, my life would quite likely be hell. Since most people are adopted very young, I don't even see why it matters that you will never know your biological parents. I never plan on meeting them (because there is no record of my father), however I wouldn't mind finding out who my siblings are. Anyway, I'm perfectly happy, and everyone else I know who is adopted (which is quite a lot of people) are also quite happy and have great lives.

[The Batman]

I support abortion it's something that's between the man and woman not the public. Why should we be able to force someone to have a child if they don't want to? Abortion is a private thing we wouldn't even know if someone had an abortion so why the hell should it matter? I say just let people do what they want to do if it's not going to harm anyone else.

[MysticalBurrito]

I say just let people do what they want to do if it's not going to harm anyone else.

The baby is what they are harming
GIVE me proof a baby isnt alive!
I want to see proof
Im keeping my ignorant statment saying a baby is alive until i see proof a baby isnt alive

[The Batman]

IMO life begins when they baby is able to live outside the mother's body on his own.
But the whole when does life begin debate is a waste of time because no one knows. Still though it's not right to put our personal beliefs infrot of others natural born rights. If a woman doesn't want to give birth then let her abort or would you rather her just give birth right then and let the baby die of complictions(if it is alive at all).

[Camazotz]

IMO life begins when they baby is able to live outside the mother's body on his own.
But the whole when does life begin debate is a waste of time because no one knows. Still though it's not right to put our personal beliefs infrot of others natural born rights. If a woman doesn't want to give birth then let her abort or would you rather her just give birth right then and let the baby die of complictions(if it is alive at all).

I agree with Thomas.

I know this is a bad analogy, but compare an abortion and life to a computer program. Pretend everyone is a computer program, and dying is like deleting a program. When in the fetus, it is like being installed. And once a baby is born, it becomes a program. An abortion is canceling the installation. It's not killing, because the program was not finished installing and did not become a full program. You are simply stopping the future program from being installed. Therefore, you are not killing. You are stopping it from being born, which is different.

I know this analogy is a little shaky, but it's the best I have right now.

[Talia]

I'm not sure how I feel on abortion, I can understand both sides pretty well. I don't think it should be seen as the "solution" to a pregnancy but I still think women should have the choice.

[Oblivion]

I'm not sure how I feel on abortion, I can understand both sides pretty well. I don't think it should be seen as the "solution" to a pregnancy but I still think women should have the choice.

Ah I love that!
I agree. It shouldn't be something that's like "Oh well, got preggers again, time to go to the city and get an abortion again..."
But it should still be open for women, since it's their body.

[Sage]

I'm not sure how I feel on abortion, I can understand both sides pretty well. I don't think it should be seen as the "solution" to a pregnancy but I still think women should have the choice.

That's true, we're assuming here that an abortion would have a decent reason, at the least, like the parents being unable to support the child or something to that effect.

[Narwhale343]

I think that it's the mother's choice to do what she wants with the baby. I think if the mom can't support the baby and she wanted an abortion she could put the unborn baby and extract stem cells(I might be wrong but I have the basic idea) and help out some people wih cancer and such. So yes I agree with abortion. But only if that's the mother's final option.

[Camazotz]

I'm not sure how I feel on abortion, I can understand both sides pretty well. I don't think it should be seen as the "solution" to a pregnancy but I still think women should have the choice.

Ah I love that!
I agree. It shouldn't be something that's like "Oh well, got preggers again, time to go to the city and get an abortion again..."
But it should still be open for women, since it's their body.

Which is exactly why I support abortion. Sometimes it can be the best option for the mother and father, as well as their families and friends. People shouldn't have abortions because they can. They should have an abortion because they should. (Especially in a worst-case scenario)

I think that it's the mother's choice to do what she wants with the baby. I think if the mom can't support the baby and she wanted an abortion she could put the unborn baby and extract stem cells(I might be wrong but I have the basic idea) and help out some people wih cancer and such. So yes I agree with abortion. But only if that's the mother's final option.

That's pretty much what I'm saying, but you included the stem-cell research topic, which I also support. If a woman is going to have an abortion, it would be better to also take the stem cells from the fetus for research.

[theOperaGhost]

People should have abortions because they should, and I feel the ONLY reason they should is because they were raped.

Now we only seem to be talking about the women here; doesn't the father get any choice? It takes TWO people to get pregnant in the first place.

[Sapphire]

Of course he should be included in the decision making process. He has rights as a father-to-be just as she does as the mother-to-be.

[roof]

People should have abortions because they should, and I feel the ONLY reason they should is because they were raped.

Now we only seem to be talking about the women here; doesn't the father get any choice? It takes TWO people to get pregnant in the first place.

But ultimately it should be the woman's choice as the father doesn't have to go through 9 months of pregnancy.

[theOperaGhost]

But ultimately it should be the woman's choice as the father doesn't have to go through 9 months of pregnancy.

Since I've been gone, I'm kind of bumping this, but it's not old yet anyway, so it doesn't matter.

So the father doesn't get a choice? It's his kid too. I know I would sure like to have a choice in the matter of MY KID! It takes two to make the baby, it should take the same two people, BOTH OF THEM, to decide to kill it.

[Mzor203]

Yes, but say both parents disagree. Who should get precedence? Obviously the one who is going to have to go through the 9 months of pain. It's only fair, as it's her body.

Why does the side that doesn't want the abortion get higher priority than the side that doesn't? They should be equal, and so the side that has to go through the pain should have more say in the matter, thus, the mother should have precedence in the lack of an agreement, not the father.

[Camazotz]

Since I've been gone, I'm kind of bumping this, but it's not old yet anyway, so it doesn't matter.

So the father doesn't get a choice? It's his kid too. I know I would sure like to have a choice in the matter of MY KID! It takes two to make the baby, it should take the same two people, BOTH OF THEM, to decide to kill it.

I have to agree. If I was going to be the father of my child, I would like to have a say in the abortion decision.

Yes, but say both parents disagree. Who should get precedence? Obviously the one who is going to have to go through the 9 months of pain. It's only fair, as it's her body.

Why does the side that doesn't want the abortion get higher priority than the side that doesn't? They should be equal, and so the side that has to go through the pain should have more say in the matter, thus, the mother should have precedence in the lack of an agreement, not the father.

But, I also agree with Rex. The woman is holding the fetus, so in the end, it has to be her decision. A compromise I think would work best is the parent that wants the abortion doesn't have to be involved with the child when it's born. (There are many flaws with this, but the only compromise I see fit for now)

[theOperaGhost]

I have to agree. If I was going to be the father of my child, I would like to have a say in the abortion decision.



But, I also agree with Rex. The woman is holding the fetus, so in the end, it has to be her decision. A compromise I think would work best is the parent that wants the abortion doesn't have to be involved with the child when it's born. (There are many flaws with this, but the only compromise I see fit for now)

I agree with Rex as well, however I still disagree. It is unfair that only the female is pregnant. It's just that the baby is HALF the father's, whether the mother likes it or not, and I feel BOTH must consent for an abortion to take place (not that I think an abortion should take place in the first place).

This obviously has to disregard absent fathers, as is my case (biologically). I personally don't think my biological father is aware of my existence, but I haven't a clue, and frankly, I couldn't care less.

[CaptainObvious]

People should have abortions because they should, and I feel the ONLY reason they should is because they were raped.

Now we only seem to be talking about the women here; doesn't the father get any choice? It takes TWO people to get pregnant in the first place.

The father doesn't get a say because until viability the fetus is a component part of the woman's body and not the father's. Unfair? Maybe. That's life. You seem to assume this is a discussion about ownership or something like that; nothing of the sort. If a fetus was not part of a woman's body with all that that entails, I wouldn't object to outlawing abortion in any way. But it is, and so the fact is that it is entirely upon the woman to make that decision. If the father can be the pregnant one, then he can make that decision. Otherwise, not.

[Oblivion]

Yes, but say both parents disagree. Who should get precedence? Obviously the one who is going to have to go through the 9 months of pain. It's only fair, as it's her body.

Why does the side that doesn't want the abortion get higher priority than the side that doesn't? They should be equal, and so the side that has to go through the pain should have more say in the matter, thus, the mother should have precedence in the lack of an agreement, not the father.

I agree.
It should be a joint decision, but if they disagree about it, the female should be able to do what she wants. It's her body, she has to physically take care of it (well, actually the father could get baby formula I suppose), and honestly, in today's life, she'll probably end up taking care of the baby, if they split up, etc. (which is pretty probable in a situation where abortion is a considered option)

[The Batman]

Really though all the woman has to say is,"Your not the father" and there goes his say in the matter.

[Sapphire]

Really though all the woman has to say is,"Your not the father" and there goes his say in the matter.
Or for her to not tell him that she's pregnant in the first place...

[nick]

With such easy access to contraception, and the "morning after pill", abortion is to me an obscenity. I'm pro choice - the choice to keep your legs together. I'm anti legalised murder in all forms. The only exceptions I would make would be:-

cases of rape (not just when the woman was pissed out of her mind)
if the mothers life was geniunely at risk as a result of the pregnancy
if the feotus had some terrible condition that meant there was absolutely no chance of it surviving beyond birth

I dont believe people should be offered tests for downs sindrome etc.. When you take the decision to have children you should be accepting the risk that some children are born with disabilities. They're children, not designer accessories

[theOperaGhost]

With such easy access to contraception, and the "morning after pill", abortion is to me an obscenity. I'm pro choice - the choice to keep your legs together. I'm anti legalised murder in all forms. The only exceptions I would make would be:-

cases of rape (not just when the woman was pissed out of her mind)
if the mothers life was geniunely at risk as a result of the pregnancy
if the feotus had some terrible condition that meant there was absolutely no chance of it surviving beyond birth

I dont believe people should be offered tests for downs sindrome etc.. When you take the decision to have children you should be accepting the risk that some children are born with disabilities. They're children, not designer accessories

Exactly!

When you make the decision to have sex, you also make the decision that you are ready to have children. If you don't want to get pregnant, don't have sex. You can use contraceptives, however they are NOT 100% successful. You are still having sex at a risk. The only way to be 100% positive you won't get pregnant is by NOT HAVING SEX!

[Sapphire]

A quick question for the guys here: If you got a girl pregnant and she wanted to abort the pregnancy, would you stop her or at least try to stop her?

With such easy access to contraception, and the "morning after pill", abortion is to me an obscenity. I'm pro choice - the choice to keep your legs together. I'm anti legalised murder in all forms. The only exceptions I would make would be:-

cases of rape (not just when the woman was pissed out of her mind)
if the mothers life was geniunely at risk as a result of the pregnancy
if the feotus had some terrible condition that meant there was absolutely no chance of it surviving beyond birth

What are your views on war? Are you a supporter of acts of war or a complete pacifist?

IMO, if you are against all legalised forms of murder with the exceptions you have outlined then you should be a complete pacifist when it comes to international disputes. If not, then you are the worst of all hypocrites.

[theOperaGhost]

A quick question for the guys here: If you got a girl pregnant and she wanted to abort the pregnancy, would you stop her or at least try to stop her?

I would TRY to stop her. From what I can tell in this thread the father doesn't really get a voice, but I would certainly make my voice known and I would definitely offer to be a single father if she didn't want it, but there's nothing I could do to stop her (although I think in some cases it takes consent by both parents if the father is known to have an abortion). I have nearly no knowledge on the legal procedure behind an abortion however so I don't know what any requirements are.

[nick]

A quick question for the guys here: If you got a girl pregnant and she wanted to abort the pregnancy, would you stop her or at least try to stop her?

I'd try my best to talk her out of it, I'd offer to take the baby & bring it up myself.

What are your views on war? Are you a supporter of acts of war or a complete pacifist?

War is at times a necessary evil, however not all conflicts and wars come into this category. The war in iraq is an obscenity and all in the UK and US should be thoroughly ashamed. I know I am.

IMO, if you are against all legalised forms of murder with the exceptions you have outlined then you should be a complete pacifist when it comes to international disputes. If not, then you are the worst of all hypocrites.

OK, you're entitled to your opinional although I'm not sure that personal abuse is called for. Would I have gone to war in WWII or been a conshie, I'd have probably gone to war. Would I have gone to war in Iraq, no way, its all a big lie & 10s of thousands of innocent people have been killed in our name. Would I have grieved if Saddam had been killed in battle, no. Do I think he should have been hung, no, thats the cold blooded murder of someone who no longer poses any threat. His killing helps noone and changes noone.

If I had gone to war I may have found myself in the position of having to kill or be killed. Could I do it, could I pull the trigger? Honestly dont know.

[Sapphire]

You claim to only allow three exceptions as to when legalised murder is, in your opinion, acceptable but you support acts of war which wasn't mentioned...Can you not see the hypocrisy?

[nick]

No, thats not true. I listed 3 exceptions to when abortion might be acceptable. I was not attempting to list other exceptions as to when the taking of another persons life would be acceptable. To me both abortion and execution are what I classed as legalised murder and morally objectionable.

[Sapphire]

To me both abortion and execution are what I classed as legalised murder and morally objectionable.
I don't understand that thinking but each to their own.

[theOperaGhost]

No, thats not true. I listed 3 exceptions to when abortion might be acceptable. I was not attempting to list other exceptions as to when the taking of another persons life would be acceptable. To me both abortion and execution are what I classed as legalised murder and morally objectionable.

Just because something is morally wrong, it doesn't make it legally wrong. Law and morals are different things and although there is some overlap between the two, some things can be legally wrong without being morally wrong and vice versa.

[nachtspiegel]

I wonder how more opinions of posters in this thread would play out when faced with the situation.
I know that I still would not want her to abort, but I wanted to throw that in here.

[Sapphire]

I wonder how more opinions of posters in this thread would play out when faced with the situation.
I know that I still would not want her to abort, but I wanted to throw that in here.
I know that my view wouldn't change either

[The Batman]

I wouldn't want her to abort and I would fight it till the end, but that's only because I would love to have a child because I still support abortion.

[INFERNO]

No, thats not true. I listed 3 exceptions to when abortion might be acceptable. I was not attempting to list other exceptions as to when the taking of another persons life would be acceptable. To me both abortion and execution are what I classed as legalised murder and morally objectionable.

The problem is your logic. Something that is morally wrong is not necessarily illegal, and something morally right is not necessarily legal.

Actually, you listed 3 exceptions as to when murder is acceptable, below is your own post:

I'm anti legalised murder in all forms. The only exceptions I would make would be:-

* cases of rape (not just when the woman was pissed out of her mind)
* if the mothers life was geniunely at risk as a result of the pregnancy
* if the feotus had some terrible condition that meant there was absolutely no chance of it surviving beyond birth

The exceptions you mentioned indeed were for abortion, however, the 3 exceptions you made were for murder in all forms.

Therefore,

You claim to only allow three exceptions as to when legalised murder is, in your opinion, acceptable but you support acts of war which wasn't mentioned...Can you not see the hypocrisy?

Is correct on your being a hypocrite.

[theOperaGhost]

Just because something is morally wrong, it doesn't make it legally wrong. Law and morals are different things and although there is some overlap between the two, some things can be legally wrong without being morally wrong and vice versa.

The problem is your logic. Something that is morally wrong is not necessarily illegal, and something morally right is not necessarily legal.

EXACTLY! :)

I do have to agree here, you were being hypocritical, however I think it could have just been a miswording on your part...not sure.

I'm assuming you meant you are anti-abortion in all forms minus the three exceptions.

[nick]

I'm sorry, I still object to being called a hypocrite. You may find a flaw or an oversight in what I originally said, you may find inconsistencies. Fair enough call me inconsistent. I may have expressed my self badly. I was trying to think what justification I could find for abortion which in general I am strongly opposed to. I was widening the issue in my own mind to make a sort of comparison with state execution which I also regard as an abomination.

I respect other peoples right to hold opposing views but hope such views can be discussed with curtesy

[INFERNO]

I'm sorry, I still object to being called a hypocrite. You may find a flaw or an oversight in what I originally said, you may find inconsistencies. Fair enough call me inconsistent. I may have expressed my self badly. I was trying to think what justification I could find for abortion which in general I am strongly opposed to. I was widening the issue in my own mind to make a sort of comparison with state execution which I also regard as an abomination.

I respect other peoples right to hold opposing views but hope such views can be discussed with curtesy

No, it was hypocritical of you. Do you know what a hypocrite is? Simply put, it's a person who says/does one thing, and says/does the opposite. Oddly enough, that appears to apply to you in this thread. You may have been widening the issue mentally, however, our mind-reading abilities, at least mine, are rather poor. So, we go with what and how you post. Going by that, yes, it was hypocritical and if you also want, inconsistent.

LOL, though I do love how you refuse to be called a hypocrite but do encourage others to call you inconsistent, which in a sense, is still hypocrisy.

[Bobby]

Stay on the topic please.

[Oblivion]

The problem is your logic. Something that is morally wrong is not necessarily illegal, and something morally right is not necessarily legal.

Exactly! Morals are often imprecise, and can be interpreted differently from person to person. That's the reason there are laws- to best adjust to the majority's ethical code, thus creating a set standard for everyone. Which is why laws aren't always agreed on.

(Such as abortion. To some it's morally wrong, but it's obviously not to the majority, otherwise the abortion right wouldn't be in place)