The bible and evolution, striaght facts.

[ShatteredGlass]

Okay these are all facts. I'm not going to preach to you but i keep hearing about people not believing in the bible, believing that it's a bunch of lies, but they don't even know the bibles orgin.

The books of the bible were not all written by the same person, they were written as letters by different priest and prophets. They were found in different places all around the globe. Most of the people in the bible NEVER met each other, in fact, due to the distance between them would make it impossible for them to meet eachother.

Yes, there were books choosen to be excluded from the bible such as, Enoch or the book of Joseph. Because they did not fit in with the rest of the bible. The council of Trent was a well, council, that gathered to decide what books should be included, and they weren't your average Joes, the were scholars, with a strong faith and priest. All the books in the bible connect with eachother, that is why books in the old testament predict the things that come to be in the new testament. During this Council the scholars and priest prayed and study the books.

So the theroy that the bible is a bunch of lies cannot be seeing as they books were found all over the world but still telling of the same events.

And for evolution, something that is not well advertised, is the fact that in order for a species to evolve, in the way supposed monkey's have evolved into human's would require a change in DNA, which scientist have found impossible.

These are all straight facts.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

And for evolution, something that is not well advertised, is the fact that in order for a species to evolve, in the way supposed monkey's have evolved into human's would require a change in DNA, which scientist have found impossible.

These are all straight facts.

You don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Sorry.

Evolution is "not well advertised" what do you even MEAN by that? Oh sure, I bet in bible-thumping areas of the states they keep evolution very hush-hush, but that's because of dogma and religious indoctrination, not the dissent of the scientific community.

You don't have the faintest clue about what evolution IS, or how it works. Monkeys didn't "evolve into humans" that is so wrong, its as if me saying paper airplanes magically turn into boeing 747's. Humans did not evolve from monkeys, they aren't even our closest-related species! We are more closely related to chimpanzee's, and share over 98% of the SAME genetic makeup. Chimps have 48 chromosomes, and we have only 46, and we HAVE conclusively shown that our chromosome pair #2 has remnants of two SEPARATE chromosome pairs that fused together sometime along our evolutionary history. You don't know what scientists say, I bet you've never read a real peer-reviewed article from ANY scientific journal. Humans coming "from monkeys' and changes in DNA "impossible" just displays your gross ignorance of the subject.


Here's some of that real evidence, as opposed to apologetic nonsense. He's also roman catholic, so touché.

zi8FfMBYCkk

[ShatteredGlass]

Okay, one there is no need for your rudeness okay I'm not Atheist therefore i said monkey instead of chimpanze's well excuse me, but you need to calm down. Okay, and look at the threory of evolution, the chimpanze grows and straightens and loses it's hair and such until it's a human okay. I've done my homework. And i wasnt saying evolution was being kept quiet i said the fact that evolution is impossible, is kept hush-hush. And i'm not looking at the video, because i do not choose to subject myself to stuff that directly contradicts my beliefs, okay. So to any one else who is all fired up about this calm down, I was simply stating facts, and I'm saying I know everything but what i do know is that I am not ignorant. And i will not continue this debate with you Canadian, because it would be pointless.

[INFERNO]

Okay these are all facts. I'm not going to preach to you but i keep hearing about people not believing in the bible, believing that it's a bunch of lies, but they don't even know the bibles orgin.

The books of the bible were not all written by the same person, they were written as letters by different priest and prophets. They were found in different places all around the globe. Most of the people in the bible NEVER met each other, in fact, due to the distance between them would make it impossible for them to meet eachother.

Yes, there were books choosen to be excluded from the bible such as, Enoch or the book of Joseph. Because they did not fit in with the rest of the bible. The council of Trent was a well, council, that gathered to decide what books should be included, and they weren't your average Joes, the were scholars, with a strong faith and priest. All the books in the bible connect with eachother, that is why books in the old testament predict the things that come to be in the new testament. During this Council the scholars and priest prayed and study the books.

So the theroy that the bible is a bunch of lies cannot be seeing as they books were found all over the world but still telling of the same events.

And for evolution, something that is not well advertised, is the fact that in order for a species to evolve, in the way supposed monkey's have evolved into human's would require a change in DNA, which scientist have found impossible.

These are all straight facts.

Before you start criticising something, learn it. However, I'll give you the chance, as I give to pretty much everyone to support your ridiculous claim: show me the evidence where scientists say it is impossible. But either way, read up on evolution, you don't seem to understand it at all.

As for saying the bible was compiled in different times by different people, yes I believe that can be true. However, I don't see how this argument is meant to show that the bible is "not full of lies". Many people don't believe in it not because it's written by tons of anonymous people but rather due to the content of what these anonymous people wrote. Also, many parts of the bible are very vague, and could easily apply to numerous things. It's essentially the same as getting a fortune that says "today you will be successful in something". Vague, and can apply to damn near anything. You could be successful in having a dump, in getting a good mark on a test, in getting laid, etc... .

And no, what you said is not all straight facts. The bible having multiple authors is, the reason people see it as a lie is not and your attempt to bash evolution is not (just shows how ignorant you are to not even have the faintest clue as to what you're
trying to debate).

EDIT: I just saw your response to Canadian. Your reasons for not wanting to watch the video seem rather ludicrous but i'll let that pass. Those who claim evolution is impossible tend to have little knowledge in it. Once again, show proof that it is impossible.

"I was simply stating facts, and I'm saying I know everything but what i do know is that I am not ignorant." Huh, well this I find to be a joke.

[Perseus]

Okay, one there is no need for your rudeness okay I'm not Atheist therefore i said monkey instead of chimpanze's well excuse me, but you need to calm down. Okay, and look at the threory of evolution, the chimpanze grows and straightens and loses it's hair and such until it's a human okay. I've done my homework. And i wasnt saying evolution was being kept quiet i said the fact that evolution is impossible, is kept hush-hush. And i'm not looking at the video, because i do not choose to subject myself to stuff that directly contradicts my beliefs, okay. So to any one else who is all fired up about this calm down, I was simply stating facts, and I'm saying I know everything but what i do know is that I am not ignorant. And i will not continue this debate with you Canadian, because it would be pointless.

OK, Im A Christian, as many people know from my debates. What I do not like waht you said is that you are not going to watch that video(even though it is not available) because it will contradict your beliefs, you should learn new thigns about other people's belief to understand your own and counter argue theirs. By saying you wont watch a short video of evolution shows that you do not want to learn why they believe what they believe because you are afraid to learn new things. I know a lot about the universe and how it works and I know a little about evolution, and I still yearn to learn more because it is interesting, doesn't matter if it contradicts God.

[Church]

Were learning evolution in school in Honors Biology, Evolution is the change in the Allele frequencies in a space of time, for example if something happened in Europe to where there was more sun, the allele for darker skin would be more frequent

[INFERNO]

OK, Im A Christian, as many people know from my debates. What I do not like waht you said is that you are not going to watch that video(even though it is not available) because it will contradict your beliefs, you should learn new thigns about other people's belief to understand your own and counter argue theirs. By saying you wont watch a short video of evolution shows that you do not want to learn why they believe what they believe because you are afraid to learn new things. I know a lot about the universe and how it works and I know a little about evolution, and I still yearn to learn more because it is interesting, doesn't matter if it contradicts God.

This is why I don't understand the point of this debate with the OP. They seem to be unwilling to even learn or view something they're attempting to argue against, being far too narrow-minded.

[ShatteredGlass]

Listen people okay. In the bible it says avoid the ways of the wicked, the wicked being the non-believers okay, so i'm avoiding the ways here, okay. And i've heard enough about evolution, if you would like to start a post and criticize everything i did on here then fine go ahead and do it, but i was simply stating what i have come across that i found rather interesting? Okay? And the bible isnt written by anonomyous ppl. Some of the authors were, Moses, Paul, Jeremiah, Isaiah...etc...And the point i was trying to make about the bible being scattered all over the planet is this: That for the ppl who think one person wrote the bible your wrong okay, because i know several ppl who think one person wrote the bible that's why they dont believe it so that was what i was trying to make.

And honestly what you guys think about me or my ways is completely irrelevant Glations 1:10 Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.

[Perseus]

What Im saying is you're unwilling to learn new things.
Learning about evolution or the universe is not wicked, you learn new things so when you are debating His existence you dont sound ignorant and not know their ideas and some of the theories of science, you will sound ignorant about other people's rebutles... and they will make fun of you because all you can say is "God did it."
EDIT: took me 5 tries to fix this lol.

[INFERNO]

Listen people okay. In the bible it says avoid the ways of the wicked, the wicked being the non-believers okay, so i'm avoiding the ways here, okay. And i've heard enough about evolution, if you would like to start a post and criticize everything i did on here then fine go ahead and do it, but i was simply stating what i have come across that i found rather interesting? Okay? And the bible isnt written by anonomyous ppl. Some of the authors were, Moses, Paul, Jeremiah, Isaiah...etc...And the point i was trying to make about the bible being scattered all over the planet is this: That for the ppl who think one person wrote the bible your wrong okay, because i know several ppl who think one person wrote the bible that's why they dont believe it so that was what i was trying to make.

And honestly what you guys think about me or my ways is completely irrelevant Glations 1:10 Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Right, so you can tell us whatever and we presumably should listen but if we say something to you, then you don't listen? No, what you heard of evolution from wherever else was bullshit.

LOL... you don't want to associate with the non-believers on here yet you have some association with other non-believers?

I think you need to put your bible down, open your eyes and look around at the world. You're being far too narrow-minded by blatantly avoiding a large amount of the population simply because they don't believe what you believe, and you use what little knowledge you have on evolution (and I'll assume the same little amount of knowledge for the other parts of science as well). I'm not trying to preach to you to give up on your belief. If you want to believe, then go ahead but think of this: how is your future going to be if you automatically refuse to be around a large amount of the population because they disagree? How are you going to get a job, how are you going to travel somewhere?

Just because several people believe it was written by one author (which to me is bullshit) and therefore don't believe in your god, doesn't apply to everyone else. I'm sure many other non-believers on here have other reasons for not believing, as do I.

[ShatteredGlass]

The bible is the all the Support i need. And "God did it" is the explanation i need because it is true. God did do it, everything. Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the Earth

[INFERNO]

The bible is the all the Support i need. And "God did it" is the explanation i need because it is true. God did do it, everything. Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the Earth

Well, I can see this going nowhere. I argue with you, you play the god did it card, and round and round we go. I still have no clue why you made this thread if you're not even willing to learn a bit about other people's views.

[Perseus]

But when you are arguing with someone with that statement, people will laugh at you and just wont debate with you because you ahve no knowlege of what they believe, but they have plenty of what you know.. like ThatCanadainGuy.. he was a Christian for 14 years.. so he knows a lot to defend evolution because he knows a lot about each subjects.

[Church]

This is why parents shouldn't make there kids go to church with them, the churches today one side everything "Ya God created earth, if someone else tells you other wise ignore them cause God forbid you hear there side, you should just slap the bible in there face and tell them there going to hell"

I'm glad I don't believe in the Christian god...

[Sage]

Okay these are all facts.

When stating a fact, it's very wise to cite a few reliable sources. Otherwise, it is heresay.

i keep hearing about people not believing in the bible, believing that it's a bunch of lies, but they don't even know the bibles orgin.

The Bible was written by various people as well all know, which greatly accounts for its countless contradictions.

The books of the bible were not all written by the same person, they were written as letters by different priest and prophets. They were found in different places all around the globe.

Uh, no, they were not found all around the globe, they came from various places in and nearby the Middle East.

The council of Trent was a well, council, that gathered to decide what books should be included, and they weren't your average Joes, the were scholars, with a strong faith and priest.

What good is a scholar that relies on faith, which by definition is the belief in something without sufficient evidence? A scholar at that time and a scholar in our time are very different things. Merely being able to read two thousand years ago meant you were of very high status in society.

So the theroy that the bible is a bunch of lies cannot be seeing as they books were found all over the world but still telling of the same events.

This is absolutely ridiculous. For one, it has already been disproven that the books of the Bible come from various places all around the world when they are in fact centralized to a specific region. Second, they do not all tell of the same events. If you read the bible, each book has different stories. If each book was the same, then you could read the first one and get the gist of the entire thing... which you cannot.

And for evolution, something that is not well advertised, is the fact that in order for a species to evolve, in the way supposed monkey's have evolved into human's would require a change in DNA, which scientist have found impossible.

Changes in DNA happen all the time. Did you know that when you are born, your DNA will vary from that of your parents? All DNA is different, if it was not, we would all look like identical twins. When your parents got together, their (And this is just my simplified summary of 9th Grade biology, mind you, look it up if you want specific details) DNA coils came together to make you. It's actually impossible for DNA to NOT change- I think your misconception here is that all members of the same species have the same DNA. This is not true- DNA is an individual thing, not a species-wide thing. Members of the same species merely have similar DNA.

These are all straight facts.

In saying that, the burden of evidence is on you, and so I hope you can cite a few consistent, reliable sources.

Okay, and look at the threory of evolution, the chimpanze grows and straightens and loses it's hair and such until it's a human okay.

No, the ancestor of the chimpanzee grows and its back straightens and it loses its hair. To understand evolution, you must keep this in mind:

PRESENT-DAY ANIMALS HAVE EVOLVED JUST AS MUCH AS US, AND THEY ARE JUST AS MODERN AS US.

I've done my homework.

Evidently not.

i said the fact that evolution is impossible, is kept hush-hush.

That "fact" is being kept hush-hush because... it's not a fact.

And i'm not looking at the video, because i do not choose to subject myself to stuff that directly contradicts my beliefs, okay.

That's ignorance.

I know everything but what i do know is that I am not ignorant.

That's contradiction.

The entire point of a debate is to listen to what other people have to say instead of proverbially covering your ears and screaming that you are right and everything you claim is a fact. If you did not wish to hear things that contradict your beliefs, why post this thread in the first place?

So to any one else who is all fired up about this calm down, I was simply stating facts,

We're fired up because you are not stating facts. Everything you've tried to prove thus far has been disproven. Even if the Bible did come from all over the globe and had perfect consistency, that does not debunk any of the countless pieces of evidence for evolution.

Listen people okay. In the bible it says avoid the ways of the wicked, the wicked being the non-believers okay, so i'm avoiding the ways here, okay.

Uhm, ouch? That's kind of a personal attack. I sure as hell don't call my opponents 'wicked' in debates...

And i've heard enough about evolution,

So this thread is pointless?

if you would like to start a post and criticize everything i did on here then fine go ahead and do it, but i was simply stating what i have come across that i found rather interesting? Okay?

It's difficult to play the victim card when you started the thread and made various extraordinary claims that put the burden of evidence on your shoulders.

And the bible isnt written by anonomyous ppl. Some of the authors were, Moses, Paul, Jeremiah, Isaiah...etc...

There is no historical record that any of these people existed outside the Bible, which is not a historically accurate book.

And the point i was trying to make about the bible being scattered all over the planet is this: That for the ppl who think one person wrote the bible your wrong okay, because i know several ppl who think one person wrote the bible that's why they dont believe it so that was what i was trying to make.

Very few people believe it was written by one person, and I'm quite sure nobody here does. If that is the point you were wishing to debate, then you should've titled the thread something like "Origins of the Bible" or something to that effect.

And honestly what you guys think about me or my ways is completely irrelevant

I don't piss on the value of your posts. It's rude to piss on the value of ours.

Some things you are unlikely to take a look at here, but I'll post this anyway as to not be hypocritical in my citing of sources.

List of Biblical Contradictions (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html)

Theory of Evolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_evolution)

Definition of 'Theory' in Scientific Context (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory#Science)

If there are any sources I've missed, please let me know and I'll go search for them.

[Church]

Let me give my shot at summarizing Evolution with my honors bio learning and stuff I watched on History/Discovery channel

Will start with DNA, DNA is comprised of 4 nucleic acid bases, Cytosine, Guanine, Adenine, and finally Thymine, these bases and there long codes they comprise code for Protein structure that is made in the Ribosomes of the cell, every now and then there is a mutation in the process of copying the DNA strand to make a new one through the process of semi conservative replication, the mutation is from when the DNA Polymerase is reading the DNA bases and laying the complementary bases, every 1 in about 1 billion it lays a mistake that doesnt get corrected, this mistake can be harmless, it can kill you, or it can change your DNA in a non harmful way that helps variate they ind.

Now we got the basic out of the way, time for the gamete production (sperm and egg) when they are being made they each get 23 chromosomes, or super coiled lengths of DNA, when the sexual reproduction is done and the egg and sperm unite the chromosomes start pairing, and they start crossing over which is the exchange of chromosomes with the pair, showing DNA changes

Now the evolution part, in nature if something were to happen, and I'll use a REAL EXAMPLE during the Industrial Revolution a lot of coal pollution got in the air, it came down on trees and made them darker, but the point of this is the the moths that lived on the trees, before the soot came on them there was 9:1 ratio of white moths to black moths in that species, that ratio was the Allele Frequency the soot came down and turned the trees a darker color, the whites started getting preyed on more and the frequency changed from for every 3 black there were 7 white, so black became more frequent over time, THAT IS EVOLUTION! THAT WAS A REAL EXAMPLE THAT WAS PROVEN!

[Sage]

Let me give my shot at summarizing Evolution with my honors bio learning and stuff I watched on History/Discovery channel

Will start with DNA, DNA is comprised of 4 nucleic acid bases, Cytosine, Guanine, Adenine, and finally Thymine, these bases and there long codes they comprise code for Protein structure that is made in the Ribosomes of the cell, every now and then there is a mutation in the process of copying the DNA strand to make a new one through the process of semi conservative replication, the mutation is from when the DNA Polymerase is reading the DNA bases and laying the complementary bases, every 1 in about 1 billion it lays a mistake that doesnt get corrected, this mistake can be harmless, it can kill you, or it can change your DNA in a non harmful way that helps variate they ind.

Now we got the basic out of the way, time for the gamete production (sperm and egg) when they are being made they each get 23 chromosomes, or super coiled lengths of DNA, when the sexual reproduction is done and the egg and sperm unite the chromosomes start pairing, and they start crossing over which is the exchange of chromosomes with the pair, showing DNA changes

Now the evolution part, in nature if something were to happen, and I'll use a REAL EXAMPLE during the Industrial Revolution a lot of coal pollution got in the air, it came down on trees and made them darker, but the point of this is the the moths that lived on the trees, before the soot came on them there was 9:1 ratio of white moths to black moths in that species, that ratio was the Allele Frequency the soot came down and turned the trees a darker color, the whites started getting preyed on more and the frequency changed from for every 3 black there were 7 white, so black became more frequent over time, THAT IS EVOLUTION! THAT WAS A REAL EXAMPLE THAT WAS PROVEN!

...That's basically what I was getting at with all I remember of 9th Grade Biology, but that should explain it rather well.

[Franz Duck]

No, Allah did it.

Hehe, I love arguing with people like the OP, they're just so brain washed and stupid that it's funny. The origins of the Bible are unknown, not "found around the globe," they could have easily been written and spread around by a group of people.

And changes in the DNA have been observed... have you noticed that viruses mutate so they can infect someone?

[Sage]

Hehe, I love arguing with people like the OP, they're just so brain washed and stupid that it's funny.

Even though I don't agree with her on absolutely anything, it's a waste of everyone's time to simply say the OP is an idiot and not add anything to the debate.

[Church]

Ya she has her own view, although she flaunts it everyone face and tries to make people believe it she still has a right to say what shes wants

[INFERNO]

Let me give my shot at summarizing Evolution with my honors bio learning and stuff I watched on History/Discovery channel

Will start with DNA, DNA is comprised of 4 nucleic acid bases, Cytosine, Guanine, Adenine, and finally Thymine, these bases and there long codes they comprise code for Protein structure that is made in the Ribosomes of the cell, every now and then there is a mutation in the process of copying the DNA strand to make a new one through the process of semi conservative replication, the mutation is from when the DNA Polymerase is reading the DNA bases and laying the complementary bases, every 1 in about 1 billion it lays a mistake that doesnt get corrected, this mistake can be harmless, it can kill you, or it can change your DNA in a non harmful way that helps variate they ind.

Now we got the basic out of the way, time for the gamete production (sperm and egg) when they are being made they each get 23 chromosomes, or super coiled lengths of DNA, when the sexual reproduction is done and the egg and sperm unite the chromosomes start pairing, and they start crossing over which is the exchange of chromosomes with the pair, showing DNA changes

Now the evolution part, in nature if something were to happen, and I'll use a REAL EXAMPLE during the Industrial Revolution a lot of coal pollution got in the air, it came down on trees and made them darker, but the point of this is the the moths that lived on the trees, before the soot came on them there was 9:1 ratio of white moths to black moths in that species, that ratio was the Allele Frequency the soot came down and turned the trees a darker color, the whites started getting preyed on more and the frequency changed from for every 3 black there were 7 white, so black became more frequent over time, THAT IS EVOLUTION! THAT WAS A REAL EXAMPLE THAT WAS PROVEN!

Ah, good old grade 9 biology. Well, you probably explained it better than I can. Last semester, finished a 2nd year university course on microbiology dealing strictly with DNA and RNA, and some cell anatomy and physiology. However, whenever I post about that, it tends to be me talking to myself.

The only thing I'll critcisize on is mutations being a result of DNA polymerase misreading the bases and such. Mutations can come in many other forms (i.e. many of the cases in teratology). One simple example is the recessive genetic disorder, xeroderma pigmentosum (XP), where pyrimidine dimers can form (also can form in healthy people), mostly CPDs and 6-4PPs.

But overall, generally-speaking, it is correct what you said.

[Underground_Network]

Why post something like this in a section where the entire point is to debate if you're not willing to listen to the other side? The entire point of debating is listening to what the other side has to say, LOOKING AT THEIR EVIDENCE, presenting your own evidence and stating your own ideas. Technically speaking there isn't always a "loser" in a debate, but you are the closest example as you're not citing sources for your facts, you're not listening to the opposition, you're refusing to view evidence they're presenting, and you're not presenting any facts whatsoever...

Listen to the opposition, argue against what they're SPECIFICALLY saying, present your own evidence, or just give up. There's no point in debating if you refuse to lose... You can't be right about everything, and this is an argument that can't truly be "won" by either side anyway. We can't prove that God is real, but we can't prove he isn't. And I'm sorry to say, but the Bible is just a book... It contains words written by humans; biased little creatures with creative minds.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

I don't think I really need to say much more. Deschain did the most in-depth refutation so far, and there isn't much more for me to add. The OP starts an openly confronational subject, REFUSES thereafter on a DEBATE forum to even listen to the opinions of others. She is completely divorced from reality, and refuses to even LOOK AT the evidence we provide. Then, she calls all of us that don't happen to share her narrow-minded views WICKED and evil basically. You are extremely ignorant of the blatant facts before your very eyes, and that makes me sad.

There might be hope for you, and people like you yet; I was a mindless drone for Christianity as well for 14 (wasted) years. Maybe if you took the chance to read ANY other book besides the Bible, then you'd understand.

[theOperaGhost]

Everyone take a chill pill. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and opinions.

***ANY BASHING WILL RESULT IN AN INFRACTION AND THIS THREAD BEING LOCKED***

This is the warning.

[Church]

There not bashing, but if your going to open a thread on a debate forum you need to have the key components of a good debate, evidence for your side, willingness to listen to the other side in a non biased fashion, able to debate with your evidence and personal experiences

[Underground_Network]

^^ But Jared, if the OP isn't willing to DEBATE, does this really belong in ROTW?

[INFERNO]

Everyone take a chill pill. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and opinions.

***ANY BASHING WILL RESULT IN AN INFRACTION AND THIS THREAD BEING LOCKED***

This is the warning.

However the OP refuses to acknowledge or even look at any opposing views or evidence. Yes she is entitled to her beliefs, however, you cant honestly wish to debate without considering the other side then calling the other side evil and wicked, and not wanting to associate with them.

[Oblivion]

And i'm not looking at the video, because i do not choose to subject myself to stuff that directly contradicts my beliefs, okay.

How can it be straight fact if you are religiously obligated not to look at, or read about, any other viewpoint?

[Mysticbeauty]

hey i'm an OP and I'm not a brainwashed idiot. It is based on the indivdual. I'm not narrowminded so I try and understand these things. Please stop stereotyping. All people are different. Even though what we believe clashes with each other doesn't mean the other person is wrong (you need facts though) just means the person has a different belief. Calm Down, Dicuss and Debate like people. :] No idiot calling please.

Edit: Uh dont mind this post. Once again I wasnt thinking :]
Lol I have issues

[ShatteredGlass]

Free speech

[Perseus]

hey i'm an OP and I'm not a brainwashed idiot. It is based on the indivdual. I'm not narrowminded so I try and understand these things. Please stop stereotyping. All people are different. Even though what we believe clashes with each other doesn't mean the other person is wrong (you need facts though) just means the person has a different belief. Calm Down, Dicuss and Debate like people. :] No idiot calling please.

OP means original poster, what were you refering it to?
And, waht they are saying is the OP refuses to debate the issue.(sorry of that went off topic or bashing or something against rules)

[ThatCanadianGuy]

Free speech

Exactly, you are allowed to voice your particular views. Thereafter, we have the right to tell you why they are wrong.

[Underground_Network]

What's an OP aside from original poster lol?

My interest in this thread just went from 0 to 10 on a scale of 5.

And to the OP (original poster!), if you have the right to free speech (voicing your views), shouldn't we have the right to free speech (saying what we want and voicing our opinions that may go against your views)?

[Camazotz]

What's an OP aside from original poster lol?

My interest in this thread just went from 0 to 10 on a scale of 5.

And to the OP (original poster!), if you have the right to free speech (voicing your views), shouldn't we have the right to free speech (saying what we want and voicing our opinions that may go against your views)?

Agreed. This is hardly a debate anymore. The OP ignores the evidence provided and substitutes her own beliefs, which is fine, but not acceptable during a debate. In a debate, one must look at each side carefully and then decide, instead of choosing a side and ignoring everything thrown at you.

As others have already said, evolution is a well-known fact supported by MANY scientists. As for your "evidence" for the Bible is partly true, it is also partly false. Look at Deschain's posts for the facts.

[theOperaGhost]

Agreed. This is hardly a debate anymore. The OP ignores the evidence provided and substitutes her own beliefs, which is fine, but not acceptable during a debate. In a debate, one must look at each side carefully and then decide, instead of choosing a side and ignoring everything thrown at you.

As others have already said, evolution is a well-known fact supported by MANY scientists. As for your "evidence" for the Bible is partly true, it is also partly false. Look at Deschain's posts for the facts.

Agreed. When the OP decides to hold an actual debate, they can PM to re-open this. :locked:

[theOperaGhost]

Re-opened by request of the OP. They have agreed to watch James's video and participate in the debate.

[RsHsChK2012]

....

[Sage]

christianity can be proven true. read the book of revalations in the bible and see if all of those things arent startin to happen in the world.

The Bible is not evidence of Christianity.

[RsHsChK2012]

....

[CaptainObvious]

christianity can be proven true. read the book of revalations in the bible and see if all of those things arent startin to happen in the world.

They aren't. Next?

yeah it is. it has all the things we believe in it.

Maybe you need a refresher on what evidence means. Evidence doesn't mean "any random shit that you believe", it means "objective facts that are verifiable".

As for the OP, she's almost not worth responding to, except for one thing:

So to any one else who is all fired up about this calm down, I was simply stating facts, and I'm saying I know everything but what i do know is that I am not ignorant.

Actually, ignorant is precisely what you are. You know absolutely nothing about evolution, or any of the evidence for it, and therefore by definition are ignorant.

[Camazotz]

They aren't. Next?



Maybe you need a refresher on what evidence means. Evidence doesn't mean "any random shit that you believe", it means "objective facts that are verifiable".

As for the OP, she's almost not worth responding to, except for one thing:



Actually, ignorant is precisely what you are. You know absolutely nothing about evolution, or any of the evidence for it, and therefore by definition are ignorant.

Amen to that. The Bible is not evidence of anything. Written beliefs contain little fact and mostly opinions. If I were to write that a Flying Spaghetti Monster was going to rule the world, it wouldn't make it true.

[RsHsChK2012]

....

[CaptainObvious]

II Timothy 3:1-5,7 "But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of god; holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."

^^ok. lovers of money is a good one. now more than ever people are soooo greedy. ex. these people that own these gas companies. gas prices have been so extreme because all they are is greedy and want Money. gas didnt use to be this bad 10 years ago. (im talkin about when it was $5 a gallon.)
another is bein disobedient to their parents. kids these days are spoilded brats! they tell their mama and deddys to shut up. they dont do things that they're told to do. and they dont respect them. they didnt use to be that way.
another is haters of good. there is so much hatred in the world now than ever!
another. bein conceited. ive never in my life seen how much people are conceited until now. most people today are.

Ah, well it's a good thing your life has lasted the history of mankind, giving you a sufficient sample to survey, right?

This is going to be a recurring theme, so I'll make it clear here: This "prediction" (and most of the others you refer to) could have been said to be true any nmber of times in the past hundreds of years. Spanish greed in colonizing the New World, the Industrial Revolution and its conceited use of humans as practically indentured slaves, the Gilded Age and its excesses, etc... you're just fitting events to statements because it's your pre-existing bias.

Zephaniah 3:9 "For then I will return to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the Lord, to serve him with one consent."
^its talkin about hebrew and prior to the restoration of Israel in 1948, Hebrew was a dead language. Now Hebrew is spoken throughout Israel.

Dubious. Hebrew has been revived since the 1920s - it's taking 80 years for the world to end? See above reasoning...

Daniel 12:4 "But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase."
^^Billy Graham was quoted as saying, "ninety percent of all the engineers and scientists who have ever lived are alive today." Air travel, space travel, DNA research and human cloning are all examples of the rapid increase in knowledge in our generation.

...knowledge will increase. Stunning prediction, really. That's the most obvious thing in the world, it's not a prophecy just common sense.

Zephaniah 3:10-11 "From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia My worshipers, My dispersed ones, will bring My offerings. In that day you will feel no shame because of all your deeds by which you have rebelled against Me; For then I will remove from your midst your proud, exulting ones, and you will never again be haughty on My holy mountain."
^^In 1984, Operation Moses saw the airlift of 15,000 Jews who had already fled to refugee camps in Sudan to escape starvation. In 1991, Operation Solomon flew 20,000 Jews to Israel from Ethiopia itself. A further airlift began in June of 1999, aimed at transporting the last 3,000 members of the Quara Jewish community from northeastern Ethiopia to Israel

Ha, finally you find a single passage in the Bible that luckily manages to predict something sort of specific and get it right. Congratulations, that's 1 of many, and could easily reflect blind coincidence. More is needed.

And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and
pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be
from heaven.
(Luke 21:11)
^^ the number of earthquakes are increasing each year.

False. The number of major earthquakes per year has actually decreased in recent years.

The chariots shall rage in the streets, they shall justle one against
another in the broad ways: they shall seem like torches, they shall
RUN LIKE THE LIGHTNINGS.
(Nahum 2:4)
^^ Fast travel

See first point; very vague and could've been true forever.

Overall.... lacking proof or evidence.

[ShatteredGlass]

Okay everybody, i watched the video so calm down. I agree with him about the end part. God is not deceptive, okay? And he should read the bible, seeing as it said God created man, male and female he created them. Anyway, what i don't get is if we evolved from chimpanzee's, then why are there still chimpanzee's around. I was looking around and i have consistently found that 98% of the creatures that once roamed the earth are now gone. So is it completely possible that instead of a creature evolving, it was here all along and the species that we think it evolved from just went extinct?

Exactly, you are allowed to voice your particular views. Thereafter, we have the right to tell you why they are wrong.

Okay I agree with that, sort of, you can tell me why you believe there wrong and thereafter i can tell you why i believe your views are wrong

[Sage]

And he should read the bible, seeing as it said God created man, male and female he created them.

You should read the Dark Tower, seeing as it said Gan created the multiverse and the two Keystone worlds in which every thing in existence resides, and that there is a magical Tower at the center of this multiverse whose destruction will lead to the impending doom of all realities.

See the logical fallacy here? Just because it was written in a book does not mean it is true.

Anyway, what i don't get is if we evolved from chimpanzee's, then why are there still chimpanzee's around.

I already answered this. If you refer to my last post, I clearly stated:

[COLOR="DarkOrange"]PRESENT-DAY ANIMALS HAVE EVOLVED JUST AS MUCH AS US, AND THEY ARE JUST AS MODERN AS US.

It was the biggest part of my post! I even made it big and colorful! We did not evolve from chimpanzees, we evolved from the ancestors of chimpanzees. Some of those ancestors evolved into the present-day chimpanzees and other primates, others evolved into us.

[COLOR="White"]I was looking around and i have consistently found that 98% of the creatures that once roamed the earth are now gone.

Yes, that is because the earth is approximatly 4.5 billion years old, and in that time, there have been a LOT of strange creatures. Some evolved into present day animals that we see here, others went extinct.

[COLOR="White"]So is it completely possible that instead of a creature evolving, it was here all along and the species that we think it evolved from just went extinct?

No, that doesn't work either, because we also have a very wide variety of transitional forms that clearly show how one species evolves into a new species.

[RsHsChK2012]

....

[Oblivion]

Honestly? Religious debates are pointless.
At the end of the day, everyone will believe in what they believed when they woke up.
So there's not point in trying to impose your thoughts on other people.

Now in my opinion, [It may- is probably -be a bit biased since I am Atheist, but mainly true] is that Deschain and onshyguy have come up with much better arguments and proof that any other side.
Much of the content posted for Christianity is uninformed of the opposing side, which makes the debate useless.

yeah it is. it has all the things we believe in it.

This particularly bothered me, because it shows a lack of basic knowledge in debating and the knowledge of what evidence truly is. As stated above, it is not a book about what you believe in, it's straight facts supporting your belief.

[Sage]

well ur comeback didnt surprise me at all. so its whatever. it dont matter how much i try, i'll still supposably be wrong. so its whatever.

I'm not sure where you're going with this post exactly.

[Whisper]

wow

Evolution and the bible should never be in the same sentence
simple as that

[phish]

Just go talk to darwins bulldog! Then go read the origin of species!

[bagman]

the answer is both people are alot taller now than they where back then. maby one day there will be fish people.

[Sage]

the answer is both people are alot taller now than they where back then. maby one day there will be fish people.

If you knew anything of evolution, you'd know it's silly to make a guess like that. There's no reason for us to become fish like with the world as is.

[Oblivion]

Especially since survival of the fittest is nearly at a stand still now, with everyone having cures for diseases, etc.\
Humans aren't really evolving anymore.

[phish]

Especially since survival of the fittest is nearly at a stand still now, with everyone having cures for diseases, etc.\
Humans aren't really evolving anymore.

That is simply not true. We are evolving with every new child everyday. No madder how perfect everything is we still are evolving.

[INFERNO]

christianity can be proven true. read the book of revalations in the bible and see if all of those things arent startin to happen in the world.

It is also filled with contradictions on just about every claim it makes or if it doesn't contradict, it says something else which is not the same. For example:

"3 And the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not strive[a] with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” " (Genesis 6:3)
Clearly, man is meant to live up to 120 years old. BUT...

" 10 Our lives last [a] seventy years
or, if we are strong, eighty years.
Even the best of them are [b] struggle and sorrow;
indeed, they pass quickly and we fly away. (A) " (Psalm 90:10)
Here, we are not to live up to 120 even if we're lucky and healthy, only up to 80, or if we're not as strong, 70 years old.

This is an example of 2 points I wish to make. First, reporting on their ages could have reflected the time in which the authors lived, so no big surpirse there. Estimating that the future will be better, people live longer isn't a hard concept either. Second, the bible is too vague. Many of the claims of the earth, animals or people are too vague and can be interpreted in many different ways, with each way giving a different result. It is more by random chance on vague topics that the bible was relatively correct. It is the exact same as me saying that in 20 years you'll find a true love, wait no, in 40, wait, 45, wait, 10 years. You see how it's pretty much age ranges all over the place? If 1 of them happens to be right, then that is by chance. The bible is no different on this.

the answer is both people are alot taller now than they where back then. maby one day there will be fish people.

*sigh*... you need to learn evolution. I'll give you credit, whether this was due to your knowledge or mere luck, however, humans did have fish or amphibian ancestors.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

Anyway, what i don't get is if we evolved from chimpanzee's, then why are there still chimpanzee's around. I was looking around and i have consistently found that 98% of the creatures that once roamed the earth are now gone. So is it completely possible that instead of a creature evolving, it was here all along and the species that we think it evolved from just went extinct?

[/COLOR]

First of all, we didn't evolve from chimpanzees, monkeys apes etc. All primates share a common ancestor, and humans and chimps just happen to share the most RECENT common ancestor. That means that humans and chimps evolved from the same common primate, but evolved along separate paths. This makes us very VERY close cousins to chimps, not "sons" of them.

It is NOT possibly that animals alive today have been "here all along". The earth is roughly 4.5 billion years old. Multicellular life didn't exist until the most recent 500 million years or so. Even the oldest species still around such as sharks, which have been around for nearly 400 million years, are VERY different from the FIRST sharks. Modern humans have only existed (on a generous estimate) for the past 100,000 to 250,000 years. To go back to some of our earliest primate ancestors would be only 3 or 4 million years. We are relative "newcomers" to this planet.

[Prince_of_Peace]

The fact the there are books written about World War II does not constitute that World War II happened. World War II happened then these books were written. These books are historical facts that validates the authenticity of events. One thousand years from now, people will go back and read these books on World War II. Some of them would doubt that thousands of people died when they dropped the atomic bomb in Horishima and Nagasaki. Many of them perhaps would say, how can that be possible to kill thousands of people in a snap of a finger. Few would say..."hey guys...it is written in these books called World War II, therefore it really DID happen. Some would say...how did you know? you were not there! That is a lie!

You see my friends, just like the Bible written 2000 years ago, many of us think that the Bible is just another fictional book that really never did happen. THen why oh why do presidents of nations use it in an inagural address and why do we even use it in our judicial system for a witness to indicate the sinserity of their hearts? If the Bible is just a fiction and a creation of make belief then YOUR President and our Judicial system is as good as super mario brothers, batman, superman, godzilla or spongebob.

So for you who does not believe that the Bible is a collection of HISTORICAL FACTS, you might as well say that YOUR PRESIDENT AND JUDGES are bunch of IDIOTS.

[Sage]

The fact the there are books written about World War II does not constitute that World War II happened. World War II happened then these books were written. These books are historical facts that validates the authenticity of events. One thousand years from now, people will go back and read these books on World War II. Some of them would doubt that thousands of people died when they dropped the atomic bomb in Horishima and Nagasaki. Many of them perhaps would say, how can that be possible to kill thousands of people in a snap of a finger. Few would say..."hey guys...it is written in these books called World War II, therefore it really DID happen. Some would say...how did you know? you were not there! That is a lie!

You see my friends, just like the Bible written 2000 years ago, many of us think that the Bible is just another fictional book that really never did happen. THen why oh why do presidents of nations use it in an inagural address and why do we even use it in our judicial system for a witness to indicate the sinserity of their hearts? If the Bible is just a fiction and a creation of make belief then YOUR President and our Judicial system is as good as super mario brothers, batman, superman, godzilla or spongebob.

So for you who does not believe that the Bible is a collection of HISTORICAL FACTS, you might as well say that YOUR PRESIDENT AND JUDGES are bunch of IDIOTS.

You know what? I'm just too fucking tired to tear this post apart as I usually do with others, so I'll just summarize your logical fallacy.

World War II has EVIDENCE THAT SUPPORTS IT.There are people alive today who have taken part in it, many historial documents written by real people who we know for certain existed, and the ruins of countless battlefields, old war machines, and things of that nature are key parts of a little thing us rational people like to call evidence.

Many events that have been told of in the Bible have not been told of in any other historical (not that the Bible is historically accurate in any way whatsoever) documents of the time, there is no evidence as to the existence of all major figures in the Bible, and the countless contradictions in the Bible (which I have linked to in a previous post in this thread) make it a very poor source of information.

Also, presidents and judges swear on the Bible because America was founded mostly by Christians. Do not get me wrong here- Though they were Christians, America is not a Christian nation. They may be a majority among the people, but the nation is secular.

Edit: And I may as well just add the regardless of the legitimacy of the Bible, many presidents and judges are still idiots. *snicker*

[Prince_of_Peace]

Then why would President Obama who iS A MUSLIM would use a CHRISTIAN BIBLE in the inaguaration? WHOA!

The BIBLE my friend is written by various people who are inspired by God. Therefore, they use the BIBLE as an instrument to swear that they will say the TRUTH. That is why they use say at the end of their statement..."SO HELP ME GOD." They did not say...so help me Alah, or so help me Buddha, or so help me Joseph Smith...or so help me science who can FEEL (according to Deschain).

[Sage]

Okay, fuck it, I will tear a post apart.

Then why would President Obama who iS A MUSLIM would use a CHRISTIAN BIBLE in the inaguaration? WHOA!

US Tradition. Next.

The BIBLE my friend is written by various people who are inspired by God.

And I've been inspired by old spaghetti westerns, The Lord of the Rings, and the band Pendulum to write a series of fantasy novels. Inspiration is meaningless.

Therefore, they use the BIBLE as an instrument to swear that they will say the TRUTH.

Because, as we all know, nobody who makes an oath ever breaks it. Again, this is merely a traditional formality.

That is why they use say at the end of their statement..."SO HELP ME GOD."

Tradition. Also, 'God' can refer to a million different dieties. Help me Jesus, help me Thor, help me Batman.

They did not say...so help me Alah, or so help me Buddha, or so help me Joseph Smith...

But you can bet your sweet ass they would if those faiths happened to be the faiths of the founders of this country and the majority of its citizens.

This is an Ad Populum fallacy. In simpler words, just because everyone happens to be doing it does not make it correct. Thanks for playing.

or so help me science who can FEEL (according to Deschain).

Do NOT put words in my mouth. It is excessively rude and speaks poorly of yourself.

Note, also, in my previous post, I did not use the word 'science' even once.

[Church]

Christians/creationist need to know what the definition of a Theory and Evolution really is, a theory is a idea thought of by taking all the FACTS and making a assumption of what happened, evolution is the change of allele frequencies, allele frequencies is why some regions of worlds have higher concentration of the same blood type etc.

[Sage]

evolution is the change of allele frequencies,

That's one definition of what 'evolution' can be, but that does not exactly define evolution in the context of the Theory of Evolution.

[Church]

The fact the there are books written about World War II does not constitute that World War II happened. World War II happened then these books were written. These books are historical facts that validates the authenticity of events. One thousand years from now, people will go back and read these books on World War II. Some of them would doubt that thousands of people died when they dropped the atomic bomb in Horishima and Nagasaki. Many of them perhaps would say, how can that be possible to kill thousands of people in a snap of a finger. Few would say..."hey guys...it is written in these books called World War II, therefore it really DID happen. Some would say...how did you know? you were not there! That is a lie!



Trying to use World War II as a example just makes you sound like a jackass, we have evidence that proves WW II happened, weapons, films of combat, testimonies, books, with the Bible, we have a book, for all we know the Bible could of been written as a fictional story that people thought was the word of God, but we don't know. Also it's Hiroshima

[Sage]

Trying to use World War II as a example just makes you sound like a jackass, we have evidence that proves WW II happened, weapons, films of combat, testimonies, books, with the Bible, we have a book, for all we know the Bible could of been written as a fictional story that people thought was the word of God, but we don't know. Also it's Hiroshima

Agreed, though perhaps it'd be more respectful to not imply Prince of Peace is a jackass. That's not really needed in a debate.

[Church]

Well the change of allele frequencies according to my H-Bio teacher that has like 3 degrees for science, is the definition of evolution

[Oblivion]

That is simply not true. We are evolving with every new child everyday. No madder how perfect everything is we still are evolving.

Erm sorry, I meant just the survival of the fittest bit.
Since the 'non-fittest' are still surviving, it doesn't work anymore.

Then why would President Obama who iS A MUSLIM would use a CHRISTIAN BIBLE in the inaguaration? WHOA!

I'll just point out that Obama is Christian...

[Church]

Ya just cause his name is of Muslim decent doesn't make him a Muslim, my last name is Czech, do I look Czech? No, just don't assume cause of his name he is Muslim

[The Resurrected One]

Then why would President Obama who iS A MUSLIM would use a CHRISTIAN BIBLE in the inaguaration? WHOA!


So, you follow those rumors and believe them, do you?


And to the thread starter, were you the same person who tried to convert me to Christianity in the PMs? Well maybe you couldn't answer since you might have easily forgotten since it was probably attempted with everybody here.

[Church]

She hasn't tried to convert me, I'm Wiccan, so go for it, try to convert me OP

[lamboman43]

The bible is the all the Support i need. And "God did it" is the explanation i need because it is true. God did do it, everything. Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the Earth

Where is the proof that god created Earth. Once you find proof god created Earth then I'll give you credit. Other wise I'll be waiting.


And other people say that god does everything. Well don't you also say god loves us. Then why does he create tornadoes or hurricanes or earthquakes or even terrorist attacks that KILL people. Last time I loved someone i didn't kill them. My mom and dad are alive and i love them.

And like other people are saying, we are always evolving. And the proof is in bones of people that are millions of years old. They had skulls that resembled chimps and other primates and still resembled ours.

Try to convert me too, I'm atheist, I dare you.

[Perseus]

Actually, God does not create natural disasters, nature does.
God does not interfer with our lives really.

[lamboman43]

According to some people god does do everything. I've said that before somewhere else and they argued " God created nature therefore he creates storms". Which I think is stupid because natural disasters happen from nature like you said and not god.

[Perseus]

See, some Christiana juat take things out of proportion(?).
God doest control nature, but He can if he wonts, that I doubt he does though.
As with the 9/11 attacks, for all we know, In God's eyes, we could of deserved it for all we know, but I doubt he controlled that too.

[Prince_of_Peace]

Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her "How could God let something like this happen?" (regarding the attacks on Sept. 11).

Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said "I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives.

And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?"

In light of recent events...terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found recently) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK.

Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school .... the Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK.

Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said OK.

Then someone said teachers and principals better not discipline our children when they misbehave. The school administrators said no faculty member in this school better touch a student when they misbehave because we don't want any bad publicity, and we surely don't want to be sued (there's a big difference between disciplining, touching, beating, smacking, humiliating, kicking, etc.).. And we said OK.

Then someone said, let's let our daughters have abortions if they want, and they won't even have to tell their parents.. And we said OK.

Then some wise school board member said, since boys will be boys and they're going to do it anyway, let's give our sons all the condoms they want so they can have all the fun they desire, and we won't have to tell their parents they got them at school. And we said OK.

Then some of our top elected officials said it doesn't matter what we do in private as long as we do our jobs. Agreeing with them, we said it doesn't matter to me what anyone, including the President, does in private as long as I have a job and the economy is good.

Then someone said let's print magazines with pictures of nude women and call it wholesome, down-to-earth appreciation for the beauty of the female body. And we said OK.

And then someone else took that appreciation a step further and published pictures of nude children and then further again by making them available on the Internet. And we said OK, they're entitled to free speech.

Then the entertainment industry said, let's make TV shows and movies that promote profanity, violence, and illicit sex. Let's record music that encourages rape, drugs, murder, suicide, and satanic themes. And we said it's just entertainment, it has no adverse effect, nobody takes it seriously anyway, so go right ahead.

Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.

Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW."

[Perseus]

WE REAP WHAT WE SOW
umm.. what does that mean?
And I sorta agree with that lady's speech.

[lamboman43]

Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her "How could God let something like this happen?" (regarding the attacks on Sept. 11).

Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said "I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives.

And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?"

In light of recent events...terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found recently) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK.

Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school .... the Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK.

Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said OK.

Then someone said teachers and principals better not discipline our children when they misbehave. The school administrators said no faculty member in this school better touch a student when they misbehave because we don't want any bad publicity, and we surely don't want to be sued (there's a big difference between disciplining, touching, beating, smacking, humiliating, kicking, etc.).. And we said OK.

Then someone said, let's let our daughters have abortions if they want, and they won't even have to tell their parents.. And we said OK.

Then some wise school board member said, since boys will be boys and they're going to do it anyway, let's give our sons all the condoms they want so they can have all the fun they desire, and we won't have to tell their parents they got them at school. And we said OK.

Then some of our top elected officials said it doesn't matter what we do in private as long as we do our jobs. Agreeing with them, we said it doesn't matter to me what anyone, including the President, does in private as long as I have a job and the economy is good.

Then someone said let's print magazines with pictures of nude women and call it wholesome, down-to-earth appreciation for the beauty of the female body. And we said OK.

And then someone else took that appreciation a step further and published pictures of nude children and then further again by making them available on the Internet. And we said OK, they're entitled to free speech.

Then the entertainment industry said, let's make TV shows and movies that promote profanity, violence, and illicit sex. Let's record music that encourages rape, drugs, murder, suicide, and satanic themes. And we said it's just entertainment, it has no adverse effect, nobody takes it seriously anyway, so go right ahead.

Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.

Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW."

So what some coincedences happened. Ok according to this I should've died or commited suicide by now. And this says it started by some Murray who said we should'nt be forced to pray in school. Which if we were forced to pray in schhol it would be against the constitution. Which our country was founded on. So because we aren't forced to pray to a god The Great 'Ol US of A is screwed and god hates us, which is why he is killing us. So if we all started praying at our schools and went against the Constitution we would be all right. NOw that reminds me of Communism. Being forced into praying to god. What if I was Muslim or Islam or Buddhist. Does that mean I'm screwed. Yep, and if I dont pray at school to god the whole Country will blame me for every death that happenes and they will burn me at the stake. All this will happen because some lady said we shouldn't be forced against our will to pray at school. You know what, if that happens I'm moving to Some place in Denmark (Voted the happiest country). I just noticed the nude child thing. Thats fucking bullshit, child porn is against the law and you know it.

[INFERNO]

Well the change of allele frequencies according to my H-Bio teacher that has like 3 degrees for science, is the definition of evolution

You'll find out that highschool is useful for few things, such as learning to read, write, think a little bit (depends on the teachers and schools) and use proper spelling and grammar. If you take biology in university or college, you will realize that this amazing teacher of yours gave you a simple yet correct definitions of evolution, however, there are other definitions.

See, some Christiana juat take things out of proportion(?).
God doest control nature, but He can if he wonts, that I doubt he does though.
As with the 9/11 attacks, for all we know, In God's eyes, we could of deserved it for all we know, but I doubt he controlled that too.

I think you contradicted yourself: god doesn't control nature but if he wants to he can? Whatever, I'm bored so I feel the need to find yet another contradiction in the bible to the idea that god controls nature.

Anyways, time for some bible quoting to contradict you:

You claim that god cannot control nature. This means that god is not all-powerful, because if he were then he could easily control nature. So...

"27 "I am the LORD, the God of all mankind. Is anything too hard for me?" (Jeremiah 32:27)
Clearly, god is full of himself and is also all-powerful. Quite a contradiction to what you said.

But, here is something I recently found and well, think this just works beautifully. Not only does it contradict, it also just tosses the idea of jesus sitting on the side of god right out the window.

"30I and the Father are one."" (John 10:30)
Clearly, jesus and god are one in the same, equals. Since as the first quote shows that god is all-powerful, jesus (or god, same thing) is also all-powerful.

[Sage]

Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said "I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives.

Yes, because terrible things never happen in theocratic countries. They're practically utopian. [/sarcasm]

And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?"

The world was much more religious six hundred years ago, and that isn't very far back in terms of recorded history. Hell, we have some damn good records from that time. But terrible things still happened.

In light of recent events...terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found recently) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK.

Prayer in school won't fix anything. Assholes are assholes, murderers are murderers. Even if it were in school, it would either have to be forced, in which case it infringes on the rights of non-believers and those of different faiths, or it would be a waste of time. If you so desperately need to pray in school, do it before or after class.

Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school .... the Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK.

You know what else says don't kill, don't steal, and be nice to people?

Common sense.

Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said OK.

A lot of kids get spanked anyway these days. There was a thread on it somewhere in here.

Then someone said teachers and principals better not discipline our children when they misbehave. The school administrators said no faculty member in this school better touch a student when they misbehave because we don't want any bad publicity, and we surely don't want to be sued (there's a big difference between disciplining, touching, beating, smacking, humiliating, kicking, etc.).. And we said OK.

Uh. School staff do discipline children who misbehave. They fail their classes, get suspended, expelled, detention, etc.

Then someone said, let's let our daughters have abortions if they want, and they won't even have to tell their parents.. And we said OK.

There's nothing wrong with abortion. The world has too many unwanted children anyway. It is far better to abort an unwanted fetus than putting it up for adoption and living a horrible life where they go from foster home to foster home feeling like shit.

Then some wise school board member said, since boys will be boys and they're going to do it anyway, let's give our sons all the condoms they want so they can have all the fun they desire, and we won't have to tell their parents they got them at school. And we said OK.

Condoms promote safe sex. What do you want, unsafe sex?

Then some of our top elected officials said it doesn't matter what we do in private as long as we do our jobs. Agreeing with them, we said it doesn't matter to me what anyone, including the President, does in private as long as I have a job and the economy is good.

I don't even know what this fucking means. What people do in private has nothing to do with anything. I hug a pillow when I go to sleep every night. I like to sing in the shower. Dear fucking god.

Then someone said let's print magazines with pictures of nude women and call it wholesome, down-to-earth appreciation for the beauty of the female body. And we said OK.

No one claimed Playboys are wholesome. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

And then someone else took that appreciation a step further and published pictures of nude children and then further again by making them available on the Internet. And we said OK, they're entitled to free speech.

No, 'we' (Whoever the fuck 'we' is, I don't even know who you're talking about) don't allow child pornography on the internet. Just because it IS on there doesn't mean we approve of it. It's a difficult job finding it and going through the procedure to find the distributor and have them arrested.

Then the entertainment industry said, let's make TV shows and movies that promote profanity, violence, and illicit sex. Let's record music that encourages rape, drugs, murder, suicide, and satanic themes. And we said it's just entertainment, it has no adverse effect, nobody takes it seriously anyway, so go right ahead.

Think for yourself. If you're so mentally weak as to be influenced by stupid things you see in the media, well, maybe you're just a stupid person.

Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.

That's a vast exageration of today's youth.

Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW."

I'll try to keep this short, but I always try to keep it short, and that never seems to work out. Why do I even bother debating with you? You seem I'm not debating you. I'm debating with the big-ass quotes you like to post from people you agree with, and I refute their points, and not your's.

In summary, what you just posted is merely saying we can blame all our problems on the lack of religion in government and schools and immoral things in the media. Apparently, everything that disagrees with your Christian policies can be blamed for all the terrible things going on in the world today. Give me a break.

I'm in here every day refuting your points and you've not rebutted one single point I've made. This grows tiring.

Please do your best to refute at least one argument I've made against you, and please do not do it by posting a big essay written by somebody you happen to agree with. Not responding to arguments makes me feel as though you're not listening to I or anyone else in this thread, and rather just trying hardest to spread your views onto a mass of people who are clearly unconvinced.

Have a wonderful day. =)

[Perseus]

Inferno, What I was saying was that God,if He waned to, could go around starting natural disasters, but he doesn't because he barely interfers with our day to day lives.

[phish]

okay these are all facts. I'm not going to preach to you but i keep hearing about people not believing in the bible, believing that it's a bunch of lies, but they don't even know the bibles orgin.

The books of the bible were not all written by the same person, they were written as letters by different priest and prophets. They were found in different places all around the globe. Most of the people in the bible never met each other, in fact, due to the distance between them would make it impossible for them to meet eachother.

Yes, there were books choosen to be excluded from the bible such as, enoch or the book of joseph. Because they did not fit in with the rest of the bible. The council of trent was a well, council, that gathered to decide what books should be included, and they weren't your average joes, the were scholars, with a strong faith and priest. All the books in the bible connect with eachother, that is why books in the old testament predict the things that come to be in the new testament. During this council the scholars and priest prayed and study the books.

So the theroy that the bible is a bunch of lies cannot be seeing as they books were found all over the world but still telling of the same events.

And for evolution, something that is not well advertised, is the fact that in order for a species to evolve, in the way supposed monkey's have evolved into human's would require a change in dna, which scientist have found impossible.

These are all straight facts.





no no no people like this live in my state ooooooo ggggggggoooodddddddddd