Heaven and Hell?

[metaldeathhorse]

Well, okay, so I am a proud Atheist. My mom denies that I am, even though she always told me to keep my mind open to religion... That perplexes me. Like, she wants me to keep an open mind about religion, but doesn't like me being Atheist. She's pretty much... I'm not sure of the terminology for it, but she believes in God and Jesus, and she was thinking about going to a non-denominational church, but she's not Christian.

But I guess my whole point here is not entirely about just my mom, but every Christian/religious person. They talk about how if you don't (using Christianity as an example) do such a thing as believe in Jesus Christ and that he was God's son and died for your sins, that you go to Hell.

Now this perplexes me even further... You'd think that if I was going to go to Hell for not believing in Jesus Christ and God, my sister and mom and dad, etc. would be worried about i. But they're not even vexed by the idea that their close relative is going to (supposedly) be spending an eternity burning in hell.

Just wanted to share my ideas because I have noone in real life that I can have intellectual conversations like this with (except my dad, but I rarely get to see him).

[ShatteredGlass]

Well, it sounds like your family is trying to get closer to God anyway. Honestly I'm worried about everyone who doesnt believe in Christ Jesus, I've even cried my eyes out for my Wiccan friend (ugh) to be delivered. So i guess maybe you should ask them, you know. And maybe they are praying for you.

[Sapphire]

It could be that they don't want to become those awful "pushy" parents who tell their children that they are condemned for not believing as that would push you more towards atheism. I really really doubt that they don't care about it.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

I find the notion of hell to be "infinitely" insulting. Think about it for a minute. You could live a totally GOOD life, and be a generally good person to everyone, and accomplish great things in your life (i.e. find the cure for cancer). BUT if you don't just believe in jesus arbitrarily without any evidence or reason to... then YOU, the GOOD PERSON, deserve to be burned and tortured in hell FOREVER. Then again, you could be a serial killer, and if you repent on your death bed you get to go to heaven. Yeah right. Hell doesn't exist, but its still a very rude insult to tell me that I DESERVE to go there, for no reason besides I don't believe in your imaginary friend.

Here's my opinion of hell:

MNtODds3Ljo

[Church]

In my religion we don't believe in hell, I see hell as a nice way to get more people in church, that's just my opinion

[ShatteredGlass]

Hell is there whether you believe it or not. Jesus being imaginery? As you said, it shows a total lack of knowledge on your part. And i think that you should start keeping fingers still to help from any further display of your ignorance Canadian. And you can be as great as a person as you want, and if you are, if you love everyone, and help people and spread wealth and prosperity, then you live by the ways by the ways of God, then why wouldnt you believe in Him? That's what i don't get. And going to Hell is a choice you choose. And you shouldn't judge. Matthew 7:1, "Judge not that ye be not judged." No one has the right to decide who is a "good" or "bad" person. People are not "good" or "bad". Their actions are either "Godly" or "UnGodly" "Right" or "Wrong". Their actions not they themselves. That's why many Christians do not believe in hating a person but the persons actions. Leviticus 19:17 " 'Do not hate your brother in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in his guilt." Matthew 5:47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?"

[INFERNO]

Hell is there whether you believe it or not. Jesus being imaginery? As you said, it shows a total lack of knowledge on your part. And i think that you should start keeping fingers still to help from any further display of your ignorance Canadian. And you can be as great as a person as you want, and if you are, if you love everyone, and help people and spread wealth and prosperity, then you live by the ways by the ways of God, then why wouldnt you believe in Him? That's what i don't get. And going to Hell is a choice you choose. And you shouldn't judge. Matthew 7:1, "Judge not that ye be not judged." No one has the right to decide who is a "good" or "bad" person. People are not "good" or "bad". Their actions are either "Godly" or "UnGodly" "Right" or "Wrong". Their actions not they themselves. That's why many Christians do not believe in hating a person but the persons actions. Leviticus 19:17 " 'Do not hate your brother in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in his guilt." Matthew 5:47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?"


LOL. You call Canadian ignorant yet you immediately say "hell is real, believe in it blah blah blah". Yes, everyone has a right to judge. Their judgements may not be as solid as your god's are but they still have that right. Call it godly, true, good, right, etc... it's revolving around the same idea. I have as much right to call you or anyone else "evil" if I feel like that is the appropriate judgement. Freedom of thought, we all have it. If you don't think so, then what about freedom of choice by your god? We can have freedom of choice but cannot judge who is good, godly, evil or ungodly? Explain that.

[Franz Duck]

Why would a loving God send me to hell?

Because he's a douche made up by humans.

[Sapphire]

Nowadays, more people view hell as being less traditional and centered more around the effects on the spirit - not being close to God etc. The traditional view of hell - fire, physical pain and torment - is still held by some, but I think they are proving to be the minority.

I find the notion of hell to be "infinitely" insulting....Hell doesn't exist, but its still a very rude insult to tell me that I DESERVE to go there, for no reason besides I don't believe in your imaginary friend.You denounce the church and the beliefs held by them, yet you find it a "very rude insult" to be told that you're going to hell? That makes very little sense to me...

And you shouldn't judge. Matthew 7:1, "Judge not that ye be not judged." No one has the right to decide who is a "good" or "bad" person. People are not "good" or "bad". Their actions are either "Godly" or "UnGodly" "Right" or "Wrong". Their actions not they themselves. That's why many Christians do not believe in hating a person but the persons actions.
I really like this concept :)

[Church]

I don't mind Christians have their own beliefs, but why must they try to get everyone to believe in it as well? It's get a bit old...

[Sage]

I don't mind Christians have their own beliefs, but why must they try to get everyone to believe in it as well? It's get a bit old...

It's done out of love so that we don't burn in a lake of fire for all eternity, apparently.

[theOperaGhost]

Why would a loving God send me to hell?

Because he's a douche made up by humans.

If you are going to debate, bring something CONSTRUCTIVE to the conversation. I won't allow bashing of atheists or christians here. It IS possible to hold a good debate WITHOUT bashing the other people's beliefs.

[Church]

Heres my side that I believe, there is no solid evidence in a God, although I do believe in a higher power there is no solid evidence, thus an example of me showing that I can have faith even if I admit there is no solid proof in a God, but taking the Bible, calling it exact proof cause you got a bunch of papers from people in the Middle East doesn't make it proof, proof can be tested and tested again with the same result

[Prince_of_Peace]

I understand your concern and I hope that you do find the truth. Through out mans history, man has always searched for this. The Egyptians built the phyramids thinking that building it will make them "gods." Man has searched for a higher power. Before the creation began a war broke up in Heaven. Lucifer was sent here on earth and have dominion over man. We are all caught in the middle of this war. This is the question you asked but not like the subject "Heaven and Hell" but more like "Heaven OR Hell." Do you know that even the demons believe in God. Christians believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of the God but do not live up to it. No one should shove religion into anyone's throat. That is now how it works. Even God gives us the freedom to accept him or reject him. You have to believe that there is a God, because not believing in God is exactly what Lucifer wants you to believe.

What makes man good? What makes anything good. What makes a pencil good. We have to look to the nature of the creation. If the nature of the pencil is to write, it you use it to write, then that makes it a good pencil. Try to use the pencil as a bottle opener and it breaks. Why? Because it is not the nature of the pencil to open bottles. Man's nature is to be happy. Sad to say that the world we live in tells us that we will not be happy unless we buy "something." That is how advertising works. We tend to believe that we will not be happy if we are slim, sexy, 6-pack abs, handsome, rich, power, stature, education, wealth, perhaps a big penis to be happy. This is not true. There are people who have all these and are still very unhappy. Then you find someone who is disabled (deaf, blind, can not walk but who are full of joy and full of happiness). This is the happiness that is found not from something but from SOMEONE. There are many claimnants or people who said they came from God. No one came to the world like Christ. If God is coming to our world, it will be preannounced. Just like you when you give out inviations for party. Anyone who will just show up would be unethical. God certainly will tell man that He is to come. The prophets foretold how Jesus will be born, through a virgin birth, he was foretold that he will create miracles for people to believe, his death was foretold. Muhhamed, Confucious, Buddha, Joseph Smith, Tao to the newest religtion that existed from Scientology to the newest occult, none of their leaders were foretold. Sad to say that Christianity is still 1/3 of the worlds population today.

If 1/3 of the people in the world believe in Jesus Christ...maybe you should consider giving it a consideration. How can we have anti-smoking law if there are no cigarrettes? How can we have anti-drug law if there are no drugs. Albert Einstein said that if the moon is 10 feet cloeser to the earth, it will be catastropic. You and I are put here on earth for a reason, to love God.

[Church]

Prince Joel, first off not mocking you, Egyptians made pyramids so there leaders (I cant spell it) Had a place to go when they die, it a ornate thing, but it does line up with certain stars that they believe bring them close to God, not make them Gods

Also you say you were put on the earth to love God, I think the Goddess (that's what I believe in dont make this a argument please) was so we can be happy in our lives, though the Goddess wants us to believe in her she doesnt want us to make her the center of our lives and make her the only focus

"The Meaning of Life is giving life meaning"

[Sage]

Oh boy, here we go again.

The Egyptians built the phyramids thinking that building it will make them "gods."

The Pyramids weree built to serve as the palace for dead Paroahs in the afterlife. They did not make them to become Gods, most Egyptians believed the Pharoahs were Gods.

Before the creation began a war broke up in Heaven. Lucifer was sent here on earth and have dominion over man. We are all caught in the middle of this war. This is the question you asked but not like the subject "Heaven and Hell" but more like "Heaven OR Hell."

That never happened and there is no evidence to prove it so. And do not tell me faith is evidence, it is the complete opposite of evidence.

Do you know that even the demons believe in God.

This adds nothing to the debate.

No one should shove religion into anyone's throat.

Amen to that.

You have to believe that there is a God, because not believing in God is exactly what Lucifer wants you to believe.

Waitwaitwait, did you just contradict what you stated a moment ago?

What makes man good? What makes anything good. What makes a pencil good. We have to look to the nature of the creation. If the nature of the pencil is to write, it you use it to write, then that makes it a good pencil. Try to use the pencil as a bottle opener and it breaks. Why? Because it is not the nature of the pencil to open bottles. Man's nature is to be happy.

No no no, our nature as with the nature of all animals on this earth is to survive and procreate.

Sad to say that the world we live in tells us that we will not be happy unless we buy "something." That is how advertising works. We tend to believe that we will not be happy if we are slim, sexy, 6-pack abs, handsome, rich, power, stature, education, wealth, perhaps a big penis to be happy. This is not true.

Yes yes, material goods are bad, and so on and so forth, but they do make many people happy. I happen to adore my high end computer and video camera and cell phone.

Then you find someone who is disabled (deaf, blind, can not walk but who are full of joy and full of happiness). This is the happiness that is found not from something but from SOMEONE. There are many claimnants or people who said they came from God.

I've no clue what you're getting at. Some people get happy when they purchase material goods. Some people get happy when they have a spiritual experience. Hell, some people get happy when they're beating someone to within an inch of their life. Just because religion may make some people feel better does not mean it will make all feel better.

No one came to the world like Christ. If God is coming to our world, it will be preannounced. Just like you when you give out inviations for party. Anyone who will just show up would be unethical. God certainly will tell man that He is to come. The prophets foretold how Jesus will be born, through a virgin birth, he was foretold that he will create miracles for people to believe, his death was foretold.

Preaching.

Muhhamed, Confucious, Buddha, Joseph Smith, Tao to the newest religtion that existed from Scientology to the newest occult, none of their leaders were foretold.

Them being wrong does not make you right.

Sad to say that Christianity is still 1/3 of the worlds population today.

I agree, that's sad, but I probably have different reasons than you do.

If 1/3 of the people in the world believe in Jesus Christ...maybe you should consider giving it a consideration.

I've been waiting for this a long time, so I'll go ahead and say it.

Concensus does not equate to correctness. Truth exists regardless of how many people know it.

There was once a time when most people on Earth believed that the sun revolved around us. Did that make it true? Absolutely not.

You and I are put here on earth for a reason, to love God.

This speaks for itself. That's all I have to say.

[Camazotz]

Hell is there whether you believe it or not. Jesus being imaginery? As you said, it shows a total lack of knowledge on your part.
No offense, but how would you know? You were never there.You have no evidence to support your idea, therefore, it stays inconclusive.

Hell is there whether you believe it or not.
Again, there is no evidence, so you cannot know for sure.

And you can be as great as a person as you want, and if you are, if you love everyone, and help people and spread wealth and prosperity, then you live by the ways by the ways of God, then why wouldnt you believe in Him? That's what i don't get.
What's not to get? Atheists don't believe in God because we think logically (most of the time). You should not believe in something without evidence. On an interview with Larry King, James Randi said, "You may not be able to see electricity, but it is there because we can prove it." God on the other hand, you cannot see nor prove. Until we have evidence to support the theory of God, I cannot logically believe in God.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

You denounce the church and the beliefs held by them, yet you find it a "very rude insult" to be told that you're going to hell? That makes very little sense to me...


I thought I made it pretty clear in the video. It doesn't matter at ALL if I don't believe in hell. When you TELL me that I DESERVE to go there, that's a horribly rude thing to say. It doesn't matter if a prison colony exists on the planet Jupiter, but if you say that I deserve to be SENT there to be tortured then regardless of whether that's true you have said something incredibly hateful to me (to suggest that I'm such a horrible person to deserve going there).

Does that make it clear? It's the intent behind what is said, not the truth of it.

[Church]

They dont understand ThatCanadianGuy, they feel to superior and self righteous to listen to other peoples side etc.

[theOperaGhost]

I thought I made it pretty clear in the video. It doesn't matter at ALL if I don't believe in hell. When you TELL me that I DESERVE to go there, that's a horribly rude thing to say. It doesn't matter if a prison colony exists on the planet Jupiter, but if you say that I deserve to be SENT there to be tortured then regardless of whether that's true you have said something incredibly hateful to me (to suggest that I'm such a horrible person to deserve going there).

Does that make it clear? It's the intent behind what is said, not the truth of it.

Actually, that's not what she is saying. What she is saying is it's alright for you to say whatever the hell you want to Christians, but they can't simply tell you to go to hell. It's a double standard. You are quite rude to Christians and they are quite rude to you back. If you can be rude and expect them to take what you say to them, the least you can do is not bitch about something rude they have to say back to you whether it be go burn in hell or go fuck yourself (just using them as examples that I've heard).

[metaldeathhorse]

Well, I've certainly come to my conclusions. Quite a few of them, in fact. Such as:

1) Why do bad things happen to good people if "God" is such a loving, caring, divine being? If we take "God" out of the equation, we see that bad things statistically can happen to anyone.

2) Why doesn't "God" heal amputees? Because there is no "God" who can magically make amputees limbs grow back. Regeneration isn't in our DNA.

3) The "Bible" endorses slavery and denounces women as being below men standard-wise. In fact, this is where the colonists argues that slavery should be legal and not abolished: because the "Bible" says that slavery is fine.

4) The Pope said a while back that "Violence is contrary to "God's" nature". This is completely false. Why else would "God" flood the Earth and kill every living creature? When you think about it, "God" is worse than Hitler. Hitler just killed a few million Jews. "God" supposably drowned everything on Earth.

5) "God" supposably gives you free will, yet "God" is also supposably all-knowing and knows what you're going to do, and when you're going to do it, all before you even get to that decision in your life. This is an extremely contradictory statement, and any logical person can see that this is impossible.

This is only a few of my conclusions. If you would like to hear more, just tell me and I'll be glad to list them and my evidence.

[AllThatIsLeft]

Being Christian or Catholic or believing in God does not make you a good or bad person. I do not believe in God, and i can tell you i am a kind and loving person. I love all living creatures, and i do not wish harm to any of them. I am very spiritual and i believe in such things as karma, and the power of nature. However, if this "god" will send me to hell because i don't believe in him or his son, i don't see the fairness of that. Which Christians claim that god loves everything equally, and the he is fair, and what not.

to the OP, my mom also thinks my beliefs (which are not believing in God, as i am an Atheist) i am not what i claim, because according to her i dont have the maturity to choose such things. And she thinks it is jsut a phase. Well she is wrong, because i've already come to the conclusion that God does not exist, and that no matter how they try to prove it, there is no substantial proof of him. The Bible was written by man, thus making it faulty, what your supposed God could have said (if it were true, which i still deny) could of been misinterpreted and maybe you are following all the wrong rules. Whatever, not my problem.
If when i die it turns out i was wrong and i go to this supposed hell, at least then i'll know that this "fair" god was full of BS, because i know that overall i am a good person. and i don't need no god, and no set of rules, and no "right or wrong" to tell me other wise.

[Sapphire]

I thought I made it pretty clear in the video. It doesn't matter at ALL if I don't believe in hell. When you TELL me that I DESERVE to go there, that's a horribly rude thing to say. It doesn't matter if a prison colony exists on the planet Jupiter, but if you say that I deserve to be SENT there to be tortured then regardless of whether that's true you have said something incredibly hateful to me (to suggest that I'm such a horrible person to deserve going there).

Does that make it clear? It's the intent behind what is said, not the truth of it.I'm not in the habit of watching random videos that people post in an attempt to portray their views. If you can create a video to get your views across then you can finish TYPING your views.

Actually, that's not what she is saying. What she is saying is it's alright for you to say whatever the hell you want to Christians, but they can't simply tell you to go to hell. It's a double standard. You are quite rude to Christians and they are quite rude to you back. If you can be rude and expect them to take what you say to them, the least you can do is not bitch about something rude they have to say back to you whether it be go burn in hell or go fuck yourself (just using them as examples that I've heard).Thanks for that. That is what I was trying to get at.

They dont understand ThatCanadianGuy, they feel to superior and self righteous to listen to other peoples side etc.I understand his view. But that does not mean that I have to agree with it or adopt it as my own. I have my own views and I don't insult people for whatever they choose to believe, which is more than can be said for some people ;-)

[ShatteredGlass]

LOL. You call Canadian ignorant yet you immediately say "hell is real, believe in it blah blah blah". Yes, everyone has a right to judge. Their judgements may not be as solid as your god's are but they still have that right. Call it godly, true, good, right, etc... it's revolving around the same idea. I have as much right to call you or anyone else "evil" if I feel like that is the appropriate judgement. Freedom of thought, we all have it. If you don't think so, then what about freedom of choice by your god? We can have freedom of choice but cannot judge who is good, godly, evil or ungodly? Explain that.

1 of the 10 commandments: Keep your thoughts and actions pure.

Okay so yes to have the right to think what you will but as a christian i believe that there are unpure thoughts, relating to doubting God, sex, self harm, murder...etc...so yes you have freedom of thought and there is a verse, judge not lest ye be judged and Luke 6:42How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

We cannot truly remove the "plank" in our eyes, therefore neither of us has the right to judge another person. We can judge their actions because yes, actions can be evil and good, ungodly and godly, but not the person themself. So i hope that answers your question.

I'm not in the habit of watching random videos that people post in an attempt to portray their views. If you can create a video to get your views across then you can finish TYPING your views.

Thanks for that. That is what I was trying to get at.

I understand his view. But that does not mean that I have to agree with it or adopt it as my own. I have my own views and I don't insult people for whatever they choose to believe, which is more than can be said for some people ;-)

Even as christians we cannot actually tell someone that they are going to hell seeing as we cannot foresee the future. They mite change and i agree it is rude, and it turns people away seeing as as christians we are suppose to love our brothers.

I can say that if in the end to do not believe in Christ, and do not repent, that you will go to hell but i cannot say for certain that you will either accpet Christ or not, and i dont even think the person who doesnt accept christ knows for certainty. So yeah.

[INFERNO]

5) "God" supposably gives you free will, yet "God" is also supposably all-knowing and knows what you're going to do, and when you're going to do it, all before you even get to that decision in your life. This is an extremely contradictory statement, and any logical person can see that this is impossible.



Well, this statement of god being all-knowing is contradictory:

"20 Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know." " (Genesis 18:20,21)

"8They heard the sound of (A)the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, (B)and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden." (Genesis 3:8)

Both suggest that God is not all-knowing.

And also, the argument you gave also does show contradiction.

1 of the 10 commandments: Keep your thoughts and actions pure.

Okay so yes to have the right to think what you will but as a christian i believe that there are unpure thoughts, relating to doubting God, sex, self harm, murder...etc...so yes you have freedom of thought and there is a verse, judge not lest ye be judged and Luke 6:42How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

We cannot truly remove the "plank" in our eyes, therefore neither of us has the right to judge another person. We can judge their actions because yes, actions can be evil and good, ungodly and godly, but not the person themself. So i hope that answers your question.



We still can judge another person, in fact, it's done all the time whether you like it or not. You judge others, both actions and personality/character, as it is an evolutionary advantage: know if the person is going to hurt you or not.

As for unpure thoughts about murder, what about when God ordered or even killed various people? If you are commanded to do so, then isn't that violating that commandment?

[RsHsChK2012]

Why would a loving God send me to hell?

Because he's a douche made up by humans.

eh. i wouldnt be talkin about God like that. not tryin to start anything, but just sayin.

[metaldeathhorse]

And also, the argument you gave also does show contradiction.

The only problem with this statement is that I was not giving an argument. I was simply stating my views and opinions on various controversial Biblical matters, with supporting evidence from apparently haphazard research.

[INFERNO]

The only problem with this statement is that I was not giving an argument. I was simply stating my views and opinions on various controversial Biblical matters, with supporting evidence from apparently haphazard research.

OK, the statement you gave shows contradiction. Is that better?

[Prince_of_Peace]

GOD is love and God is also just. With freedom given to man, man is capable of either making himself a SAINT or a devil. What good is it if God created the stars in the universe and diamonds as big as moon? They can only shine and does not give him glory. Suppose he makes man and give him the power to either love him in return or reject him? Then God can say, this creation is more than a diamond that just shines. So God creates man with freedom. But God has JUSTICE.

For example. suppose you have a twin sibling. He was asked by your parents to put the trash out every Friday night. Your twin grumbles and do not respect your parent. He would say "talk to the hand." On the other hand, you were asked to vacuum the carpet floor. You would vacuum the house without dismay. Suppose you and your twin asked for a new pair of shoes one weekend and your parents budget can only but a pair of shoes. Do you suppose they will buy shoes for your twin first?

Just as people who have chosen not to believe in God, they will be outrooted when the final harvest comes. The sheeps will be seperated from the goats. Don't get me wrong....but there are goats dressed in sheeps clothing as well. Those are the ones that will be placed in the burning ocean of fire wherein they face the wrath of God's justice! He will say...'Where were you when you saw me hungry and you gave me no food? gry and thirsty? Or "where were you when I was cold and hungry and you gave me no clothes? " Or "Where were you when I was thirty and you gave me no drink?
Away from me you evil doers and go to the fire of Ghehena!

Trust me...the day will come when you will see the SON OF MAN coming down from sky...see the SIGNS OF THE TIMES for the no one knows when the day will come.

[Sage]

GOD is love and God is also just. With freedom given to man, man is capable of either making himself a SAINT or a devil. What good is it if God created the stars in the universe and diamonds as big as moon? They can only shine and does not give him glory. Suppose he makes man and give him the power to either love him in return or reject him? Then God can say, this creation is more than a diamond that just shines. So God creates man with freedom. But God has JUSTICE.

For example. suppose you have a twin sibling. He was asked by your parents to put the trash out every Friday night. Your twin grumbles and do not respect your parent. He would say "talk to the hand." On the other hand, you were asked to vacuum the carpet floor. You would vacuum the house without dismay. Suppose you and your twin asked for a new pair of shoes one weekend and your parents budget can only but a pair of shoes. Do you suppose they will buy shoes for your twin first?

Just as people who have chosen not to believe in God, they will be outrooted when the final harvest comes. The sheeps will be seperated from the goats. Don't get me wrong....but there are goats dressed in sheeps clothing as well. Those are the ones that will be placed in the burning ocean of fire wherein they face the wrath of God's justice! He will say...'Where were you when you saw me hungry and you gave me no food? gry and thirsty? Or "where were you when I was cold and hungry and you gave me no clothes? " Or "Where were you when I was thirty and you gave me no drink?
Away from me you evil doers and go to the fire of Ghehena!

Trust me...the day will come when you will see the SON OF MAN coming down from sky...see the SIGNS OF THE TIMES for the no one knows when the day will come.

So in summary, your god is the only true god, those who do not believe in your God are comparable to goats, and everyone who is not part of your religion will burn in a lake of fire some day.

I don't quite see where you're going with this. There's no choir to preach to here, buddy.

[Prince_of_Peace]

Please do not get me wrong. The subject is HEAVEN AND HELL. What do you expect?

I try to make a logical explanation which unlike you (no offense) has done nothing but give unexplainable negative criticism. Why not explain your commentaries that makes a logical or scientific hypothesis? With all due respect, all the posting you have done in the past finishes up with extreme subjective vies and lasts 4 or 5 sentences. Doesn't your school offer a debate class anywhere?

[Sage]

I try to make a logical explanation which unlike you (no offense) has done nothing but give unexplainable negative criticism.

Saying "God did it." is not a logical explanation. You've made your points, I refute them, and in doing so, I make my points. Why has no one refuted my points yet?

Why not explain your commentaries that makes a logical or scientific hypothesis? With all due respect, all the posting you have done in the past finishes up with extreme subjective vies and lasts 4 or 5 sentences.

Explain what you mean in this. If there's ever something I haven't made clear in one of my posts, just let me know, and I would gladly elaborate.

Doesn't your school offer a debate class anywhere?

If you're asking me to take it elsewhere, that's rather rude.

[Prince_of_Peace]

Deschain - do you believe in heaven and do you believe in hell?

[Halibut]

i know i hate that!!! when people do that it ticks me off. but i would talk to believe it or not a paster. they can be quite open minded about things and open to talk about it! btw im agnostic

[Sage]

Deschain - do you believe in heaven and do you believe in hell?

No, there is no evidence to prove either exists.

[Prince_of_Peace]

Then that explains it all. What do you believe in then?

[INFERNO]

GOD is love and God is also just. With freedom given to man, man is capable of either making himself a SAINT or a devil. What good is it if God created the stars in the universe and diamonds as big as moon? They can only shine and does not give him glory. Suppose he makes man and give him the power to either love him in return or reject him? Then God can say, this creation is more than a diamond that just shines. So God creates man with freedom. But God has JUSTICE.

For example. suppose you have a twin sibling. He was asked by your parents to put the trash out every Friday night. Your twin grumbles and do not respect your parent. He would say "talk to the hand." On the other hand, you were asked to vacuum the carpet floor. You would vacuum the house without dismay. Suppose you and your twin asked for a new pair of shoes one weekend and your parents budget can only but a pair of shoes. Do you suppose they will buy shoes for your twin first?

Just as people who have chosen not to believe in God, they will be outrooted when the final harvest comes. The sheeps will be seperated from the goats. Don't get me wrong....but there are goats dressed in sheeps clothing as well. Those are the ones that will be placed in the burning ocean of fire wherein they face the wrath of God's justice! He will say...'Where were you when you saw me hungry and you gave me no food? gry and thirsty? Or "where were you when I was cold and hungry and you gave me no clothes? " Or "Where were you when I was thirty and you gave me no drink?
Away from me you evil doers and go to the fire of Ghehena!

Trust me...the day will come when you will see the SON OF MAN coming down from sky...see the SIGNS OF THE TIMES for the no one knows when the day will come.

For someone who seems to know so much of the bible, you seem blind to the fact that many of the claims regarding god are contradicted in the bible. As we all want some proof, here it is...

"GOD is love and God is also just"

" 12(A) For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not,(B) even what he has will be taken away." (Matthew 13:12)
This is the opposite of just God.

" 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[a] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[b]" (Romans 9:11-13)
This too is showing an unjust god.

"14 I will smash them one against the other, fathers and sons alike, declares the LORD. I will allow no pity or mercy or compassion to keep me from destroying them.' "" (Jeremiah 13:14)
This is the opposite of a loving, caring god.

And to show that god acknowledges that other gods do exist...

" 1And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

2And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,

3And said, My LORD, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant" (Genesis 18:1-3)
Would god bow down to 3 random people? No, he'd bow down to another god or would he say "from thy servant" in reference to himself? No. Therefore, there are other gods and clearly God doesn't mind.

" 26Then God said, "Let (A)Us make (B)man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them (C)rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."" (Genesis 1:26)
Would god refer to himself as "us" over and over again? "Us" is plural, not singular, therefore, god acknowledges and apparently interacts with other gods.

So, it'd seem rather silly to assume that if you don't believe in that 1 god, then God will get all angry and toss you into a firey lake.

And as a lasting little bit, you same very deep into your faith. Do you think your faith grants you justice in god's eyes?

"13For(A) it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified." (Romans 2:13)
Well, nope, faith won't cut it. Sorry, you're not "righteous" or "good" in god's eyes.

The rest of what you said was just plain preaching.

[Sage]

Then that explains it all. What do you believe in then?

Explain what you mean 'that explains it all'. That comes off as really condescending. It's as if you think you know everything about me because I'm an atheist. If this is not the case, please make it clear.

I believe in things that can be backed up by logical, rational pieces of evidence. I believe in science and I admit science cannot explain everything at the moment. That's the wonder of science- In science, it is perfectly acceptable to say "I don't know yet." We don't know for certain how the universe began, how life began, and things of this sort, that is the whole point of research. Rather than pulling a terrible explanation such as "Oh, let's just say God did it" out of our asses, we work hard to find the true answer to all of life's wonders. I'm not sure about you, but I don't consider belief to be a personal thing- Just because you believe something does not make your belief correct, or even respectable. Maybe this is just me, but I would rather know than believe.

[Prince_of_Peace]

If God doesn't exist, it doesn't matter if you're good or bad, if you help in emergency efforts or are one of those people who fly planes into buildings. It doesn't matter, if there is no God, whether you donate selflessly to a Pro-Life organization or if you are an abortionist. It just doesn't matter. If this is all there is to life, if no one ever has to give an account of what he's done, if there is no one who rewards and punishes, what's it all matter? Why not just look out for yourself, maximize the pleasures and minimize the pains of life? Why not have fun and let everyone else suffer? Who cares if someone is being treated unjustly, as long as you're feeling great? I mean, if there is no God and I simply cease to exist after death, whether I've been a Mother Theresa or a Howard Stern, a St. Nicholas or a Mao Tse-Dong, why not be totally selfish and leave everything and everyone else behind?
This might seem shocking to many. But if you really think about it, it's true. It doesn't matter how many children die each year if there is no God. There is no reason why I should help anyone or care for anyone at all. Common sense and compassion, which we (hopefully) all possess, compels us to reject such an idea that nothing matters and that we should only watch out for ourselves. But there is no reasonable answer to why we shouldn't, if God does not exist.
Pretty much any atheist, I certainly hope, would be totally repulsed by the idea that there is no reason not to look out only for ourselves if there is no God. But why? It cannot be demonstrated rationally , so the only basis the atheist has for maintaining at least a minimal account of morality is emotion. It just doesn't seem right to hurt other people, to steal from others, to cause pain to the innocent. It just doesn't feel right. But there is absolutely no rational reason an atheist could bring forward to defend his living an at least minimally moral life.

What I am NOT Saying
I am prone to be misunderstood here, so I want to spell out precisely what I do and do not mean here.
I do NOT mean to convey that
• all atheists are immoral
• all atheists should be immoral
• immorality is unique to atheists or necessarily connected to them
• one cannot learn morality or how to be moral unless one believes in God [because even though many recognize the moral law (natural law), they do not reason further to the existence of the moral lawgiver, God]
What I AM Saying
On the other hand, here is what I do affirm:
• endorsing atheism makes it impossible to offer any rational arguments for why one should be moral, i.e. do good and avoid evil
Somehow, though, it is deep in everyone's heart (for lack of a better term) that it is wrong to torture babies and getting a "kick" out of it, and that it is right to help and protect them instead.
What accounts for this? The atheist has no answer, except that he might say that it is simply a psychological defect in our brain that needs to be overcome, i.e. it is true that there are no reasons to be moral and therefore no one has an obligation to be moral and can just do whatever he likes. With this explanation, the atheist can save his atheism, but utters a most disgusting thing, namely that it does not matter whether one hurts innocent children, for instance, or not. Hardly anyone would affirm such a thing, though.
The only other answer I can think of that an atheist might give is that there is a sort of innate tendency that tells us that we ought to do good and avoid evil for merely pragmatic, i.e. practical, purposes. They might think it is a sort of trait of evolution (in which most of them believe), one that accounts for the fact that mankind has survived until this very day. After all, if everyone only cared for his own self, his own pleasure, and not about anyone else, it seems likely that mankind would not have survived very long. But this possible answer has its problems: so what if mankind doesn't survive very long? Who cares? Remember, the atheist doesn't believe in God, and hence he can see no real meaning in life (ask Jean-Paul Sartre!). Why should anything or anyone care if mankind will exist for a long time? This type of atheist response presupposes either the existence of God, who wishes mankind to live long, or that it is somehow meaningful or objectively good that mankind should survive a long time. But such a presupposition would posit that there is a real good (and evil), which, however, had earlier been explained away as a merely pragmatic trait of evolution.
Thus, neither possible atheist answer can account for the fact that everyone knows, deep down, that certain things ought to be done and others ought to be condemned and avoided. (Not everyone may agree precisely what that is, but there is a sort of minimal basis everyone can agree on, e.g. it is wrong to torture helpless widows, etc.--I call this "ethical minimalism.")
Natural Law
The point in all of this is that the only thing that can account for the existence of our conviction that certain things ought to be done and others ought to be avoided is the existence of the natural law. But a natural law implies--or at least strongly suggests--a natural-lawgiver. The natural law would have no reason for existing if there was not a Being which will judge us by this law and to Whom we must one day give an account. The natural law tells us, objectively, what is right and what is wrong. But objective right and wrong can only exist if there is some purpose to life, if those who do good are going to be rewarded, and those who do evil will be punished. Otherwise, we'd be back to square one and left with the absurd dilemma that either nothing is right or wrong or we ought indeed to be virtuous but for no reason.
Since it is not the objective of my essay to prove how the natural law works and how it can be discerned, or to prove that the assertion "Nothing is right or wrong" is impossible, let me refer the reader to two excellent books making these cases:

50 Questions on the Natural Law, by Charles E. Rice, Ph.D. Third edition, Ignatius Press, 1999.

A Refutation of Moral Relativism, by Peter Kreeft, Ph.D. Ignatius Press, 1999.

[For a more practical proof that there is real right and wrong, please watch America's Most Wanted.]

CONCLUSION
An atheist recognizes, as most do, that there is a real right and wrong out there, that some things really ought to be done and others avoided, this should lead him to conclude that there is a God, that God exists.

[Sage]

If God doesn't exist, it doesn't matter if you're good or bad, if you help in emergency efforts or are one of those people who fly planes into buildings.

Yes it does. It's harmful to the species as a whole if we do not help eachother out.

It doesn't matter, if there is no God, whether you donate selflessly to a Pro-Life organization or if you are an abortionist.

There is no such thing as an 'abortionist'. You are either Pro-Life or Pro-Choice. Being selflessly good is called Altruism. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism) It's completely natural. Look it up.

It just doesn't matter. If this is all there is to life, if no one ever has to give an account of what he's done, if there is no one who rewards and punishes, what's it all matter?

It's not being selflessly good if the reward is eternal bliss in Heaven. I do good things even though I know there is nothing for me after death- This is because I am a good person.

Why not just look out for yourself, maximize the pleasures and minimize the pains of life? Why not have fun and let everyone else suffer? Who cares if someone is being treated unjustly, as long as you're feeling great? I mean, if there is no God and I simply cease to exist after death, whether I've been a Mother Theresa or a Howard Stern, a St. Nicholas or a Mao Tse-Dong, why not be totally selfish and leave everything and everyone else behind?

Because selfish people are assholes, and nobody will help them. You cannot survive alone in this world. People generally do good things so we may act kindly to one another and help use get through life in the best manner possible.

This might seem shocking to many. But if you really think about it, it's true. It doesn't matter how many children die each year if there is no God.

Yes it does. They are fellow human beings. If their death can be prevented, we should all be working to prevent it.

There is no reason why I should help anyone or care for anyone at all. Common sense and compassion, which we (hopefully) all possess, compels us to reject such an idea that nothing matters and that we should only watch out for ourselves. But there is no reasonable answer to why we shouldn't, if God does not exist.

I've already made it clear that nobody will like you if you're a selfish dick, and you can't get through life easily if everyone hates you.

Pretty much any atheist, I certainly hope, would be totally repulsed by the idea that there is no reason not to look out only for ourselves if there is no God. But why? It cannot be demonstrated rationally , so the only basis the atheist has for maintaining at least a minimal account of morality is emotion.

Read above, I've already given rational reasons to be altruistic in your actions.

It just doesn't seem right to hurt other people, to steal from others, to cause pain to the innocent. It just doesn't feel right. But there is absolutely no rational reason an atheist could bring forward to defend his living an at least minimally moral life.

Again, read above. You're repeating yourself.


What I AM Saying
On the other hand, here is what I do affirm:
• endorsing atheism makes it impossible to offer any rational arguments for why one should be moral, i.e. do good and avoid evil

I just did. Next please.

Somehow, though, it is deep in everyone's heart (for lack of a better term) that it is wrong to torture babies and getting a "kick" out of it, and that it is right to help and protect them instead.

If this is about abortion, then you are grossly misrepresenting it as 'torturing babies'. A fetus is not a baby. People abort children because in many cases, it is better that the child never be born, rather than come into this world under terrible conditioms that will scar it for life, such as being the result of rape and sexual abuse, or being put up for adoption, etc.

What accounts for this? The atheist has no answer, except that he might say that it is simply a psychological defect in our brain that needs to be overcome, i.e. it is true that there are no reasons to be moral and therefore no one has an obligation to be moral and can just do whatever he likes.

Atheists don't say that.

With this explanation, the atheist can save his atheism, but utters a most disgusting thing, namely that it does not matter whether one hurts innocent children, for instance, or not. Hardly anyone would affirm such a thing, though.

You're making a generalization about atheists that is in no ways correct. Atheism has no rules like an organized religion. The only binding quality shared by all atheists is the lack of belief in God. Aside from that, we all have our own personal beliefs and it is not uncommon for two atheists to agree on an issue.

The only other answer I can think of that an atheist might give is that there is a sort of innate tendency that tells us that we ought to do good and avoid evil for merely pragmatic, i.e. practical, purposes. They might think it is a sort of trait of evolution (in which most of them believe), one that accounts for the fact that mankind has survived until this very day.

We evolved to be social animals. As society forms among animals, it is only logical that they share ideas on what is right and wrong, for the survival of the group.

After all, if everyone only cared for his own self, his own pleasure, and not about anyone else, it seems likely that mankind would not have survived very long.

This is my point exactly.

But this possible answer has its problems: so what if mankind doesn't survive very long? Who cares? Remember, the atheist doesn't believe in God, and hence he can see no real meaning in life (ask Jean-Paul Sartre!).

You could not be more wrong on this issue. Atheists know that this is the only life we will get- That is why we must live it to our full potential. So what if you're religious and you have some fun here on Earth? What does it matter when you'll just be eternally blissful in Heaven? Why feel good now when you can feel good later?

You see how I can twist arguments like that around you?

Why should anything or anyone care if mankind will exist for a long time?

Because we are mankind, and generally concensus shows... most people don't want to die.

This type of atheist response presupposes either the existence of God, who wishes mankind to live long, or that it is somehow meaningful or objectively good that mankind should survive a long time.

Atheists don't respond like that. This is the one of the most annoying logical fallacies I have to deal with from theists.

You CANNOT make a massive generalization of the other party's position and say it is wrong, when your generalization, the foundation of the argument, is wrong in itself.


Natural Law
The point in all of this is that the only thing that can account for the existence of our conviction that certain things ought to be done and others ought to be avoided is the existence of the natural law. But a natural law implies--or at least strongly suggests--a natural-lawgiver. The natural law would have no reason for existing if there was not a Being which will judge us by this law and to Whom we must one day give an account. The natural law tells us, objectively, what is right and what is wrong. But objective right and wrong can only exist if there is some purpose to life, if those who do good are going to be rewarded, and those who do evil will be punished. Otherwise, we'd be back to square one and left with the absurd dilemma that either nothing is right or wrong or we ought indeed to be virtuous but for no reason.
Since it is not the objective of my essay to prove how the natural law works and how it can be discerned, or to prove that the assertion "Nothing is right or wrong" is impossible, let me refer the reader to two excellent books making these cases:

50 Questions on the Natural Law, by Charles E. Rice, Ph.D. Third edition, Ignatius Press, 1999.

A Refutation of Moral Relativism, by Peter Kreeft, Ph.D. Ignatius Press, 1999.

[For a more practical proof that there is real right and wrong, please watch America's Most Wanted.]

Theists say Atheists don't want to be accountable for their wrong-doings. What if I just said Theists just want to have God accountable for everything that goes wrong?

Oh, a tsunami came in. God must've done that because we're sinning. Oh look, millions of children are dying. That must've happened because we're immoral. See what I'm getting at?

We as humans are accountable to ourselves. Do you need the greatest reward imaginable (Heaven) and the greatest punishment imaginable (Hell) to make you do good things? Are so you cold, that without reward and punishment, you will not help somebody who truly needs a hand?

That to me, my friend, is the essence of selfishness.

CONCLUSION
An atheist recognizes, as most do, that there is a real right and wrong out there, that some things really ought to be done and others avoided, this should lead him to conclude that there is a God, that God exists.

Humans define what is right and wrong in human society. Chimps define what is right and wrong in chimp society. Wolves define what is right and wrong in wolf society. We are accountable unto ourselves. The existence of right and wrong, as we present them, has nothing to do with the existence of God.

[Prince_of_Peace]

I have given you the sources or references. Where did you get yours? YOURSELF.

Moral relativism believes that there are many different ways of looking at something, all of which are equally valid. Moral relativism rejects the idea of absolute truth. Most western countries are morally relativist, which is why laws change radically and we have notions such as political correctness. an example would be homosexuality. In Iran, according to the PM, there are no homosexuals. Those who show the tendency have it beaten out of them, as it is viewed as wrong.
In the US and most western countries, the current view is that homosexuality is a valid alternative to heterosexuality and laws have been enacted and are being enacted to make this legal.

The question should be: Is the truth absolute or relative?

What I think is right for me, you might understand differently and have a difference of opinion, therefore it may appear wrong in your eyes and vice versa. Moral relativism claims that there is no absolute moral truth, and that all values are individual and cannot be universalized due to the subjective nature of experience. This essentially eliminates the idea of "right" and "wrong" because "man is the measure" so to speak. Moral Relativists would argue that lying is wrong only if an individual feels that it is wrong, but is not wrong in itself.

For you not believing in God does not constitute that we should not believe in God as well. People want to believe in the existence of God. People like to eat steak and potatoes too. Should we start serving eveyone with soup because there are few people can not digest steak and potatoes?

QUESTION:
How can one say "do not smoke cigarette" if there is no cigarette in the first place?
How can one say "do not drink and drive" if there is no alcohol in the first place?

Stop being a cry baby and take my suggestion: PROVE TO ME THAT GOD DOES NOT EXIST.

[Sage]

I have given you the sources or references. Where did you get yours? YOURSELF.

The gist of my argument in my last post was "If you do bad things, people won't like you." Do you seriously need a source for that? It's called common knowledge.

Moral relativism believes that there are many different ways of looking at something, all of which are equally valid.

But they are not equally valid. Saying "God did it" gets us nowhere. Understanding something such as the theory of evolution, however, is of great use to scientists.

Moral relativism rejects the idea of absolute truth.

So, if it's against my beliefs that 1 + 1 = 2, my belief is absolutely valid and respectable?

Most western countries are morally relativist, which is why laws change radically and we have notions such as political correctness.

No, most western countries are morally relativist because we have to be tolerant to people's beliefs, no matter how stupid they may be, if we wish for them to behave well.

an example would be homosexuality. In Iran, according to the PM, there are no homosexuals. Those who show the tendency have it beaten out of them, as it is viewed as wrong./quote]

And you know why they view it as wrong? Oh, yes. Religion.

[QUOTE=Prince_of_Peace;461543]In the US and most western countries, the current view is that homosexuality is a valid alternative to heterosexuality and laws have been enacted and are being enacted to make this legal.

The question should be: Is the truth absolute or relative?

The truth is absolute. We're right, they're wrong.

For you not believing in God does not constitute that we should not believe in God as well. People want to believe in the existence of God.

And the point I am trying to make is that it is a terrible way to life your life. Religion controls those who follow it. (Except for those of on the very moderate religious side.)

People like to eat steak and potatoes too. Should we start serving eveyone with soup because there are few people can not digest steak and potatoes?

Soup is better for you. Haha, kidding.

I never claimed that everyone should be an atheist. You are merely trying to prove God exists, and I am refuting your points. I do not need to prove God does not exist, because atheism is not a belief, it is the lack of a belief.

The burden of evidence is on you.

QUESTION:
How can one say "do not smoke cigarette" if there is no cigarette in the first place?
How can one say "do not drink and drive" if there is no alcohol in the first place?

Don't boink a zorgblok, and don't vorbel and drive. It's easy to make up words.

Stop being a cry baby

Do not mock me. As tempting as it may be, I have yet to name you and of the things I would so very much like to name you. If reduced to this, then there is no reason for the debate to go further.

Stop being a cry baby and take my suggestion: PROVE TO ME THAT GOD DOES NOT EXIST.

The burden of evidence is on you. I could easily write up a fine essay with multiple reasons as to why God cannot exist, although I refuse to do so until you systematically refute every point I have made so far against you.

[Prince_of_Peace]

SHOW SOME BALLS AND WRITE AN ESSAY TO PROVE GOD DOES NOT EXIST.

...I know very well that you can not.

[theOperaGhost]

SHOW SOME BALLS AND WRITE AN ESSAY TO PROVE GOD DOES NOT EXIST.

...I know very well that you can not.

This is a DEBATE, not an ARGUMENT. DO NOT CALL SOMEONE OUT. Comments like that are not needed.

[AllThatIsLeft]

this is getting heated.


SHOW SOME BALLS AND WRITE AN ESSAY TO PROVE GOD DOES NOT EXIST.

...I know very well that you can not.

on that same note, prove that God exists.

we can not prove either or, so we as atheist go by reasoning, if you can't prove it go by what you can prove.

Science exists, science is real.
God's existence can not be proven.

[Sage]

SHOW SOME BALLS AND WRITE AN ESSAY TO PROVE GOD DOES NOT EXIST.

...I know very well that you can not.

For someone who believes so strongly in reward and punishment, you sure don't seem to pay attention very well. I will not summarise my view in an essay until you read through each and every one of my rebuttals that I've used against your arguments. Should you be unable to disprove all of them, then that should be convincing enough. If however you can argue the points I've already made successfully, then sure, I would gladly write something definitive. Until then, though, it is unneccessary.

[Church]

This is getting a bit annoying, religion and science isn't black and white, you don't have to be either or, I believe in the Goddess and the God, do I have proof? No, I just believe and feel as if there is a higher power, its my choice, also I believe in evolution cause it makes sense, don't see why a higher power would drop you off on earth and hope you make it, cause you wont if you don't have the tools for survival.

[Mzor203]

Okay, so I am looking for someone to have a heated debate with because I'm bored. ^_^

The problem I'm seeing here is that, one side of you guys are arguing based of judgements and facts that can e proven, while the other side is arguing based off of faith. The thing is, no one has seen heaven or hell, thus we can not know for 100% fact that t exists.

So now I'm going to put forward a new point.

Let's take me for example. I'm an agnostic. My views are very open, and I'd be willing to latch onto a religion if someone showed to me that it had something to back it, and it was based on a concrete idea that made sense. Now, according to Christians, since I don't believe in God directly, I'm going to hell. :(

Now, why is this? The thing is, I was brought up in an Atheist home. So because my beliefs were pretty much drilled into my head through my childhood, where I had no say in the matter, I'm going to hell. Wtf? I'm sorry my beliefs were drilled into me. Now, if I wanted to change, I have, what, only 50,000 religions to choose from. And only one is the right one. And no matter ho I talk to, everyone is going to tell me that a speific, different religion is the right one.

So, pretty much, I'm fucked. If God put me here, God put me into a position where I'm goin' to hell no matter what I do. That's not exactly very loving, now, is it?

SO obviously, he doesn't care that much about me if he's going to put me in that situation. Which means my prayers aren't worth anything to him, because he obviously doesn't want them. So yeah, why would he put me here in this position? How can you say that I'm going to hell just because I'm not Christian?

Ah well, guess I'm screwed.

[Sage]

Let's take me for example. I'm an agnostic.

Agnosticism isn't a religion. In terms of belief, you have gnosticism (knowing something for certain) and agnositicism (not knowing something for sure), and then you are either a theist or an atheist. Although gnositicism is very arrogant, you could easily be an agnostic theist, or a gnostic atheist, or any combination.

But you can't be only an agnostic.

[Mzor203]

Agnosticism isn't a religion. In terms of belief, you have gnosticism (knowing something for certain) and agnositicism (not knowing something for sure), and then you are either a theist or an atheist. Although gnositicism is very arrogant, you could easily be an agnostic theist, or a gnostic atheist, or any combination.

But you can't be only an agnostic.

That's not the point right here. This debate is not specifically about my religious beliefs. The point is, I'm not Christian, and don't believe in the Christian God, which seems to be enough to condemn me.

[Sapphire]

Agnosticism isn't a religion. In terms of belief, you have gnosticism (knowing something for certain) and agnositicism (not knowing something for sure), and then you are either a theist or an atheist. Although gnositicism is very arrogant, you could easily be an agnostic theist, or a gnostic atheist, or any combination.

But you can't be only an agnostic.
Actually, a religion is a set of beliefs by which someone chooses to live their life. Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Atheism and Agnosticism are all religions in their own right.

[Mzor203]

This is a debate on heaven and hell, not what the definition of certain religions are.

*Bumps in the hope that someone will post a counter-argument to his post*

I need excitement. :)

[Prince_of_Peace]

ATHEISM claims that NOTHING created EVERYTHING.

A TRUE MAN IS SOMEONE WHO CAN STAND UP AND PROVE ON WHAT HE BELIEVES IN. HAS THE ATHEIST LOSTS HIS SPINE TO STAND UP? SHOW SOME MANHOOD AND USE THAT SPINE AND WRITE THAT ESSAY.

I CALL ON ANY ATHEIST TO SHOW SOME BALLS. PROVE GOD DOES NOT EXIST AND SHOW SOME BALLS.

[Sapphire]

ATHEISM claims that NOTHING created EVERYTHING.

A TRUE MAN IS SOMEONE WHO CAN STAND UP AND PROVE ON WHAT HE BELIEVES IN. HAS THE ATHEIST LOSTS HIS SPINE TO STAND UP? SHOW SOME MANHOOD AND USE THAT SPINE AND WRITE THAT ESSAY.

I CALL ON ANY ATHEIST TO SHOW SOME BALLS. PROVE GOD DOES NOT EXIST AND SHOW SOME BALLS.
Why don't you "show some balls" and prove that He does exist?

[Church]

Alright Prince of Peace now your just making yourself look like a jackass, did you decide to resort to low shots and desperation tactics? Doesn't really help your case

[Sage]

ATHEISM claims that NOTHING created EVERYTHING.

A TRUE MAN IS SOMEONE WHO CAN STAND UP AND PROVE ON WHAT HE BELIEVES IN. HAS THE ATHEIST LOSTS HIS SPINE TO STAND UP? SHOW SOME MANHOOD AND USE THAT SPINE AND WRITE THAT ESSAY.

I CALL ON ANY ATHEIST TO SHOW SOME BALLS. PROVE GOD DOES NOT EXIST AND SHOW SOME BALLS.

Real tough guy with your caps lock, huh.

Let me explain the Burden of Evidence logistical fallacy to you. It is the reason I do not need to prove anything and the reason you do.

Atheism is not a belief in no god(s), it is the disbelief in a god(s). Your big fallacy is,

You assume there is a God unless proven otherwise.

Unfortunately, you are the one making the more extraordinary claim. It is much more of a large claim to say that there is something than there isn't.

I assume there is no God unless proven otherwise.

This is why I refuse to write the essay until you've refuted my points. I do not need to prove anything, that's your responsibility.

Now please, grow up and debate in a more civil manner. This is getting tiresome.

[Camazotz]

ATHEISM claims that NOTHING created EVERYTHING.

A TRUE MAN IS SOMEONE WHO CAN STAND UP AND PROVE ON WHAT HE BELIEVES IN. HAS THE ATHEIST LOSTS HIS SPINE TO STAND UP? SHOW SOME MANHOOD AND USE THAT SPINE AND WRITE THAT ESSAY.

I CALL ON ANY ATHEIST TO SHOW SOME BALLS. PROVE GOD DOES NOT EXIST AND SHOW SOME BALLS.

We, as atheists, cannot prove God doesn't exist. However, the point of atheism is to not believe in God because we can't prove that he does exist. Before you bash other members, become a "true man" and prove what you believe in.

Real tough guy with your caps lock, huh.

Let me explain the Burden of Evidence logistical fallacy to you. It is the reason I do not need to prove anything and the reason you do.

Atheism is not a belief in no god(s), it is the disbelief in a god(s). Your big fallacy is,

You assume there is a God unless proven otherwise.

Unfortunately, you are the one making the more extraordinary claim. It is much more of a large claim to say that there is something than there isn't.

I assume there is no God unless proven otherwise.

This is why I refuse to write the essay until you've refuted my points. I do not need to prove anything, that's your responsibility.

Now please, grow up and debate in a more civil manner. This is getting tiresome.

Completely agree.

[Prince_of_Peace]

Okay..so what's a little daring here but to give the Atheist some chance to explain. The truth is these atheists CAN NOT prove that God does not exist. Therefore, they can not prove your disbelief.

My turn to a wonderful essay why I believe in God. You can search the archives and most importantly the atheist news paper called "Illustracao Portugueza." The even it called the "MIRACLE OF THE SUN."


The Miracle of the Sun is a miraculous event witnessed by as many as 100,000 people on 13 October 1917 in the Cova da Iria fields near Fátima, Portugal. Those in attendance had assembled to observe what the Portuguese secular newspapers had been ridiculing for months as the absurd claim of three shepherd children that a miracle was going to occur at high-noon in the Cova da Iria on October 13, 1917.

According to many witness statements, after a downfall of rain, the dark clouds broke and the sun appeared as an opaque, spinning disk in the sky. It was said to be significantly less bright than normal, and cast multicolored lights across the landscape, the shadows on the landscape, the people, and the surrounding clouds. The sun was then reported to have careened towards the earth in a zigzag pattern, frightening some of those present who thought it meant the end of the world. Some witnesses reported that their previously wet clothes became "suddenly and completely dry."

Estimates of the number of witnesses range from 30,000-40,000 by Avelino de Almeida, writing for the Portuguese newspaper O Século, to 100,000, estimated by Dr. Joseph Garrett, professor of natural sciences at the University of Coimbra, both of whom were present that day.

The miracle was attributed by believers to Our Lady of Fátima, an apparition of the Blessed Virgin Mary to three young shepherd children in 1917, as having been predicted by the three children on 13 July, 19 August, and 13 September 1917. The children reported that the Lady had promised them that she would on 13 October reveal her identity to them and provide a miracle "so that all may believe."

According to these reports, the miracle of the sun lasted approximately ten minutes.The three children also reported seeing a panorama of visions, including those of Jesus, the Blessed Virgin Mary, and of Saint Joseph blessing the people.

THE FIRST SECRET
The first secret was a vision of Hell, which Lúcia describes in her Third Memoir, as follows:

"Our Lady showed us a great sea of fire which seemed to be under the earth. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in a huge fire, without weight or equilibrium, and amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repulsive likeness to frightful and unknown animals, all black and transparent. This vision lasted but an instant. How can we ever be grateful enough to our kind heavenly Mother, who had already prepared us by promising, in the first Apparition, to take us to heaven. Otherwise, I think we would have died of fear and terror."

The SECOND SECRET included Mary's instructions on how to save souls from Hell and convert the world to the Catholic faith, written in 1917:

"You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war is going to end: but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the Pontificate of Pius XI. When you see a night illuminated by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father. To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of reparation on the First Saturdays. If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated. In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she shall be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world."

According to Sister Lúcia, The Virgin promised that the Consecration of Russia would lead to Russia's conversion and an era of peace.[1]

Pope Pius XII, in his Apostolic Letter of July 7, 1952 Sacro Vergente consecrated Russia to the Most Blessed Virgin Mary. Pius XII wrote,

Just as a few years ago We consecrated the entire human race to the Immaculate Heart of the Virgin Mary, Mother of God, so today We consecrate and in a most special manner We entrust all the peoples of Russia to this Immaculate Heart…[13]
In 1952 the Pope reminded the Russian people, that the Virgin Mary was always victorious. "The gates of hell will never prevail, where she offers her protection. She is the good mother, the mother of all, and it has never been heard, that those who seek her protection, will not receive it. With this certainty, the Pope dedicates all people of Russia to the immaculate heart of the Virgin. She will help! Error and atheism will be overcome with her assistance and divine grace".

Pope Pius XII and Pope John Paul II both had special relations to our Lady of Fátima. Pope Benedict XV began Pacelli's Church career, elevating him to archbishop in the Sistine Chapel on May 13, 1917, the very day, Our Lady of Fátima is believed to have first appeared to three shepherd children in Fátima. Pius XII, was laid to rest in the crypt of Saint Peter's Basilica on November 13, 1958, on the Feast of our Lady of Fátima. The Lady of Fátima is credited by many faithful and, as mentioned below, by the Pontiff himself, with saving the life of John Paul II during the assassination attempt in 1981 on Fátima day.

Pope John Paul II again consecrated the entire world to the Virgin in 1984, without mentioning countries like Russia. Some believe that Sister Lúcia verified that this ceremony fulfilled the requests of the Virgin. However, in the Blue Army's Spanish magazine, Sol de Fatima, in the September 1985 issue, Sister Lúcia said that the ceremony did not fulfill the Virgin's request, as there was no specific mention of Russia, and "many bishops attached no importance to it". In 2001, Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone issued a statement, claiming that he had met with Sister Lúcia, who reportedly told him, "I have already said that the consecration desired by Our Lady was made in 1984, and has been accepted in Heaven." Sister Lúcia died on February 13 (same day as the apparitions), 2005, without making any public statement of her own to settle the issue.

A 2008 Conference in the former Soviet Union focused on a future accompanied by Mary. Orthodox Russians gathered in Minsk with Catholics of Belarus to celebrate the 150th anniversary of Mary's apparitions in Lourdes and to consider her role in their personal and national history. It was recalled that Our Lady told Bernadette Soubirous that she was the Immaculate Conception. [15] To some faithful, this may be an indication that the prayers to the Lady of Fatima about Russia are effective.

The THIRD SECRET
The third secret, a vision of the death of the Pope and other religious figures, was transcribed by the Bishop of Leiria and reads:

"After the two parts which I have already explained, at the left of Our Lady and a little above, we saw an Angel with a flaming sword in his left hand; flashing, it gave out flames that looked as though they would set the world on fire; but they died out in contact with the splendour that Our Lady radiated towards him from her right hand: pointing to the earth with his right hand, the Angel cried out in a loud voice: ‘Penance, Penance, Penance!' And we saw in an immense light that is God: ‘something similar to how people appear in a mirror when they pass in front of it' a Bishop dressed in White ‘we had the impression that it was the Holy Father'. Other Bishops, Priests, Religious men and women going up a steep mountain, at the top of which there was a big Cross of rough-hewn trunks as of a cork-tree with the bark; before reaching there the Holy Father passed through a big city half in ruins and half trembling with halting step, afflicted with pain and sorrow, he prayed for the souls of the corpses he met on his way; having reached the top of the mountain, on his knees at the foot of the big Cross he was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, Religious men and women, and various lay people of different ranks and positions. Beneath the two arms of the Cross there were two Angels each with a crystal aspersorium in his hand, in which they gathered up the blood of the Martyrs and with it sprinkled the souls that were making their way to God."

Look it up in the history books and even the atheist newspaper. The miracle of the sun happened and is in the history books. And you wonder why people believe in HELL and HEAVEN? You can't even prove that NOTHING created EVERYTHING...how much more to write an essay.

[INFERNO]

[QUOTE=Prince_of_Peace;466127]Okay..so what's a little daring here but to give the Atheist some chance to explain. The truth is these atheists CAN NOT prove that God does not exist. Therefore, they can not prove your disbelief. [QUOTE]

And you cannot prove your God exists, therefore, you cannot prove your belief.

[Prince_of_Peace]

MY PROOF THAT GOD EXIST: Famous Scientists Who Believed in God

Rich Deem
Nicholas Copernicus (1473-1543)
Copernicus was the Polish astronomer who put forward the first mathematically based system of planets going around the sun. He attended various European universities, and became a Canon in the Catholic church in 1497. His new system was actually first presented in the Vatican gardens in 1533 before Pope Clement VII who approved, and urged Copernicus to publish it around this time. Copernicus was never under any threat of religious persecution - and was urged to publish both by Catholic Bishop Guise, Cardinal Schonberg, and the Protestant Professor George Rheticus. Copernicus referred sometimes to God in his works, and did not see his system as in conflict with the Bible.
Sir Francis Bacon (1561-1627)
Bacon was a philosopher who is known for establishing the scientific method of inquiry based on experimentation and inductive reasoning. In De Interpretatione Naturae Prooemium, Bacon established his goals as being the discovery of truth, service to his country, and service to the church. Although his work was based upon experimentation and reasoning, he rejected atheism as being the result of insufficient depth of philosophy, stating, "It is true, that a little philosophy inclineth man’s mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds about to religion; for while the mind of man looketh upon second causes scattered, it may sometimes rest in them, and go no further; but when it beholdeth the chain of them confederate, and linked together, it must needs fly to Providence and Deity." (Of Atheism)
Johannes Kepler (1571-1630)
Kepler was a brilliant mathematician and astronomer. He did early work on light, and established the laws of planetary motion about the sun. He also came close to reaching the Newtonian concept of universal gravity - well before Newton was born! His introduction of the idea of force in astronomy changed it radically in a modern direction. Kepler was an extremely sincere and pious Lutheran, whose works on astronomy contain writings about how space and the heavenly bodies represent the Trinity. Kepler suffered no persecution for his open avowal of the sun-centered system, and, indeed, was allowed as a Protestant to stay in Catholic Graz as a Professor (1595-1600) when other Protestants had been expelled!
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Galileo is often remembered for his conflict with the Roman Catholic Church. His controversial work on the solar system was published in 1633. It had no proofs of a sun-centered system (Galileo's telescope discoveries did not indicate a moving earth) and his one "proof" based upon the tides was invalid. It ignored the correct elliptical orbits of planets published twenty five years earlier by Kepler. Since his work finished by putting the Pope's favorite argument in the mouth of the simpleton in the dialogue, the Pope (an old friend of Galileo's) was very offended. After the "trial" and being forbidden to teach the sun-centered system, Galileo did his most useful theoretical work, which was on dynamics. Galileo expressly said that the Bible cannot err, and saw his system as an alternate interpretation of the biblical texts.
Rene Descartes (1596-1650)
Descartes was a French mathematician, scientist and philosopher who has been called the father of modern philosophy. His school studies made him dissatisfied with previous philosophy: He had a deep religious faith as a Roman Catholic, which he retained to his dying day, along with a resolute, passionate desire to discover the truth. At the age of 24 he had a dream, and felt the vocational call to seek to bring knowledge together in one system of thought. His system began by asking what could be known if all else were doubted - suggesting the famous "I think therefore I am". Actually, it is often forgotten that the next step for Descartes was to establish the near certainty of the existence of God - for only if God both exists and would not want us to be deceived by our experiences - can we trust our senses and logical thought processes. God is, therefore, central to his whole philosophy. What he really wanted to see was that his philosophy be adopted as standard Roman Catholic teaching. Rene Descartes and Francis Bacon (1561-1626) are generally regarded as the key figures in the development of scientific methodology. Both had systems in which God was important, and both seem more devout than the average for their era.
Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
In optics, mechanics, and mathematics, Newton was a figure of undisputed genius and innovation. In all his science (including chemistry) he saw mathematics and numbers as central. What is less well known is that he was devoutly religious and saw numbers as involved in understanding God's plan for history from the Bible. He did a considerable work on biblical numerology, and, though aspects of his beliefs were not orthodox, he thought theology was very important. In his system of physics, God is essential to the nature and absoluteness of space. In Principia he stated, "The most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion on an intelligent and powerful Being."
Robert Boyle (1791-1867)
One of the founders and key early members of the Royal Society, Boyle gave his name to "Boyle's Law" for gases, and also wrote an important work on chemistry. Encyclopedia Britannica says of him: "By his will he endowed a series of Boyle lectures, or sermons, which still continue, 'for proving the Christian religion against notorious infidels...' As a devout Protestant, Boyle took a special interest in promoting the Christian religion abroad, giving money to translate and publish the New Testament into Irish and Turkish. In 1690 he developed his theological views in The Christian Virtuoso, which he wrote to show that the study of nature was a central religious duty." Boyle wrote against atheists in his day (the notion that atheism is a modern invention is a myth), and was clearly much more devoutly Christian than the average in his era.
Michael Faraday (1791-1867)
Michael Faraday was the son of a blacksmith who became one of the greatest scientists of the 19th century. His work on electricity and magnetism not only revolutionized physics, but led to much of our lifestyles today, which depends on them (including computers and telephone lines and, so, web sites). Faraday was a devoutly Christian member of the Sandemanians, which significantly influenced him and strongly affected the way in which he approached and interpreted nature. Originating from Presbyterians, the Sandemanians rejected the idea of state churches, and tried to go back to a New Testament type of Christianity.
Gregor Mendel (1822-1884)
Mendel was the first to lay the mathematical foundations of genetics, in what came to be called "Mendelianism". He began his research in 1856 (three years before Darwin published his Origin of Species) in the garden of the Monastery in which he was a monk. Mendel was elected Abbot of his Monastery in 1868. His work remained comparatively unknown until the turn of the century, when a new generation of botanists began finding similar results and "rediscovered" him (though their ideas were not identical to his). An interesting point is that the 1860's was notable for formation of the X-Club, which was dedicated to lessening religious influences and propagating an image of "conflict" between science and religion. One sympathizer was Darwin's cousin Francis Galton, whose scientific interest was in genetics (a proponent of eugenics - selective breeding among humans to "improve" the stock). He was writing how the "priestly mind" was not conducive to science while, at around the same time, an Austrian monk was making the breakthrough in genetics. The rediscovery of the work of Mendel came too late to affect Galton's contribution.
William Thomson Kelvin (1824-1907)
Kelvin was foremost among the small group of British scientists who helped to lay the foundations of modern physics. His work covered many areas of physics, and he was said to have more letters after his name than anyone else in the Commonwealth, since he received numerous honorary degrees from European Universities, which recognized the value of his work. He was a very committed Christian, who was certainly more religious than the average for his era. Interestingly, his fellow physicists George Gabriel Stokes (1819-1903) and James Clerk Maxwell (1831-1879) were also men of deep Christian commitment, in an era when many were nominal, apathetic, or anti-Christian. The Encyclopedia Britannica says "Maxwell is regarded by most modern physicists as the scientist of the 19th century who had the greatest influence on 20th century physics; he is ranked with Sir Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein for the fundamental nature of his contributions." Lord Kelvin was an Old Earth creationist, who estimated the Earth's age to be somewhere between 20 million and 100 million years, with an upper limit at 500 million years based on cooling rates (a low estimate due to his lack of knowledge about radiogenic heating).
Max Planck (1858-1947)
Planck made many contributions to physics, but is best known for quantum theory, which revolutionized our understanding of the atomic and sub-atomic worlds. In his 1937 lecture "Religion and Naturwissenschaft," Planck expressed the view that God is everywhere present, and held that "the holiness of the unintelligible Godhead is conveyed by the holiness of symbols." Atheists, he thought, attach too much importance to what are merely symbols. Planck was a churchwarden from 1920 until his death, and believed in an almighty, all-knowing, beneficent God (though not necessarily a personal one). Both science and religion wage a "tireless battle against skepticism and dogmatism, against unbelief and superstition" with the goal "toward God!"
Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
Einstein is probably the best known and most highly revered scientist of the twentieth century, and is associated with major revolutions in our thinking about time, gravity, and the conversion of matter to energy (E=mc2). Although never coming to belief in a personal God, he recognized the impossibility of a non-created universe. The Encyclopedia Britannica says of him: "Firmly denying atheism, Einstein expressed a belief in "Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of what exists." This actually motivated his interest in science, as he once remarked to a young physicist: "I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details." Einstein's famous epithet on the "uncertainty principle" was "God does not play dice" - and to him this was a real statement about a God in whom he believed. A famous saying of his was "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

QUESTION: Are your smarter than any of these scientist? I know I am not.

[INFERNO]

... your proof is random scientists who believed? This is a joke, right? As for my intelligence versus these scientists, that is irrelevant.

EDIT: See my post in the evolution thread because you're posting the exact same stuff.

[Prince_of_Peace]

OH NO...I just started to prove that GOD EXIST.

These scientist believed in God because of science. With all due respect to your "intelligence" (and its not brain surgery here), perhaps you should give some scientific fact or data or your own theory that your God does not exist.

However, with the conditions you've mentioned that an ATHEIST CAN NOT PROVE GOD DOES NOT exist....I think your arguement is just a lost cause.

CONCLUSION: ATHEIST HAS NO REASON FOR DISBELIEVING IN THE EXISTENCE OF GOD.

[Sapphire]

OH NO...I just started to prove that GOD EXIST.

These scientist believed in God because of science. With all due respect to your "intelligence" (and its not brain surgery here), perhaps you should give some scientific fact or data or your own theory that your God does not exist.

However, with the conditions you've mentioned that an ATHEIST CAN NOT PROVE GOD DOES NOT exist....I think your arguement is just a lost cause.

CONCLUSION: ATHEIST HAS NO REASON FOR DISBELIEVING IN THE EXISTENCE OF GOD.
You are just making yourself look like an ignorant, arrogant pillock as there is NO concluding evidence for OR against God's existence.

[Sage]

Your entire post is an 'Appeal to Authority' fallacy, Prince. Saying smarter people believe the same things you do does not make it correct.

[Stevo 69]

Many people believe in heaven and hell and many people don't. I guess the only people who know for cetain are those who are dead. Although people have claimed to have seen "the light" when the were dead but were brought back to life in hospital.

Maybe the only way we can know is if we die.

[Prince_of_Peace]

Then what makes your explanation for your disbelief in the existence of God? As far as I know, an atheist is someone who believes that everything was created by nothing.

An INSANE person is defined as someone who Unsoundness of mind sufficient in the judgment. A person unfit to maintain a contractual or other legal relationship or to warrant commitment to a mental health facility. Insane person is not in touch with reality.

How can person as smart of you not see the REALITY that EVERYTHING IS NOT CREATED BY NOTHING?

Your reply has never given a single fact, not one single reason or any logical explanation that GOD does not EXIST. And you expect that the readers will think God does not exist??? All you've done is reply with negative comment with nothing to back you up.

I have been called arrogant, ignorant and concluding no evidence. I am the one who have been writing why believe in God. And here you are offering NOTHING. My entire post make full of sense, factual, written in history and are recorded in books. Your post has NOTHING but your little INSANE statements with NOTHING from facts, NOTHING from history, and NOTHING from reason.

You can not even write an essay to your disbelief in God. Snap out of your dream and wake up to reality. Smart people are in touch with reality. Smart people are correct. GOD EXIST.

Smart people do not believe that EVERTHING IS CREATED BY NOTHING. Stupid people do.

[Sapphire]

Intelligence is not defined by religious beliefs. Just because we do not share the same belief system does not make either one of us stupid and the other smart.

And no one has written your essay because why should we have to?
I certainly will not spend my time writing an essay on what I believe and why because some arrogant 15 year old has demanded that I do it. If I were to do it, it would be because I want to do it of my free will.

If you demand that I, as an atheist, write an essay on why I believe there is no God, then I demand that you, as a Christian, write one first on why there is a God.

[Prince_of_Peace]

Scientist through their intelligence realized that there is "INTELLIGENT DESIGN" in the universe and that is how they discovered God.

I have written so many reasons why GOD EXIST. Not one atheist here have written anything on your disbelief. I am sorry if I called anyone stupid. Stupid is defines as

1 - lacking ordinary quickness and keenness of mind; dull.
2 - characterized by or proceeding from mental dullness; foolish; senseless:
3 - tediously dull, esp. due to lack of meaning or sense; inane; pointless:

But that is not my point. All I am asking is that why has not one single atheist in this tread has written any factual, valid and something that is historically documented the reason for not believing in the existence of God?

Sugar and Spice - I know you are a very caring and loving person...if you love people and care about people, perhaps you should convince me that I am being mislead. The fact that you do love people and you do care about people, is contradictory to atheism. If an atheist does not believe in God, they why do good? There is no hell and there in no heaven to an atheist....right? So why bother being good?

[Sapphire]

It is not my place to tell people that they are being mislead. Everyone has the right to believe what they want.
A disbelief in God does not equate to not caring about people. Heaven and hell should not, IMHO, be the reason to help others.

I care about people because I believe that everyone is worth the effort. Everyone needs a helping hand at times and if I can give them that then it is worth the effort. Everyone has the right to be happy and I try to help them reach happiness when I can.

Are you asking for evidence against God or the reasons for the disbelief?
I am not in a current position to give a long essay on evidence that goes against His existence, so I will explain why I don't believe.

I do not believe in God because it seems too fanciful. It is too convenient that we all must answer to a higher power. We all dream at some point in our lives of being rescued or looked after. From where I am standing, I can see that religion provides security in the promise that God is watching over us all. I just can't get my head around it. I can't believe in something which, for some reason, I can't get my head around. I have tried to have faith, but the thing that seems to be preventing me is that.
In this day and age religion isn't needed by the public like it once was. We have science and scientific theories with supporting evidence to answer a number of the questions religion was used to answer. Because we don't need it, some people are bound to lose faith.

There is no right or wrong answer as to whether God exists. As long as we all look after each other and ourselves, differing religious beliefs don't matter.

[INFERNO]

OH NO...I just started to prove that GOD EXIST.

Haven't proved that yet.


These scientist believed in God because of science. With all due respect to your "intelligence" (and its not brain surgery here), perhaps you should give some scientific fact or data or your own theory that your God does not exist.

And their reasons for believing in God matters because? I can just as easily say many scientists don't believe in God because of science, so what is your point with that? I don't believe in a god and I don't believe it exists physically because it's just a bunch of made-up stories by humans. He exists in the minds of people but that's all.


However, with the conditions you've mentioned that an ATHEIST CAN NOT PROVE GOD DOES NOT exist....I think your arguement is just a lost cause.

As is yours. You cannot prove a god exists, your argument is also a lost cause.


CONCLUSION: ATHEIST HAS NO REASON FOR DISBELIEVING IN THE EXISTENCE OF GOD.

Atheists do have their reasons as do christians have their reasons. You may not like the reasons, however, that does not mean they don't exist. Perhaps if you went about, found some atheists and asked without being so completely ignorant and giving random babble about scientists, you'd learn something.

Then what makes your explanation for your disbelief in the existence of God? As far as I know, an atheist is someone who believes that everything was created by nothing.

Then you don't know what an atheist is. There are various types of atheists, some don't believe in a certain god designated by a certain belief, some don't believe in any god for all beliefs. People were created as a result of the Big Bang, which is something. Therefore, your idea of an atheist is complete nonsense.


An INSANE person is defined as someone who Unsoundness of mind sufficient in the judgment. A person unfit to maintain a contractual or other legal relationship or to warrant commitment to a mental health facility. Insane person is not in touch with reality.

If you're calling atheists "insane" then you're way off. A christian can just as easily be insane, as can a muslim or hindu or scientologist or agnostic. Of course, maybe you're saying atheists are insane because they don't believe in your god. If that's the case, I have some news for you: Christians are insane by that logic. They don't believe in the beliefs of scientologists, or in Vishnu therefore, they're insane.


How can person as smart of you not see the REALITY that EVERYTHING IS NOT CREATED BY NOTHING?

Where did someone say they believing everything is made from nothing? Atheists tend to believe in the Big Bang Theory, and that is something.


Your reply has never given a single fact, not one single reason or any logical explanation that GOD does not EXIST. And you expect that the readers will think God does not exist??? All you've done is reply with negative comment with nothing to back you up.

Because you haven't proven god exists. You've shown people appeal to authority then gave a nice and useless short biography on Einstein. Nothing so far has been remotely close to showing god exists.


I have been called arrogant, ignorant and concluding no evidence. I am the one who have been writing why believe in God. And here you are offering NOTHING. My entire post make full of sense, factual, written in history and are recorded in books. Your post has NOTHING but your little INSANE statements with NOTHING from facts, NOTHING from history, and NOTHING from reason.

True, you have been using historical facts. I will give you credit for that. However, those facts don't prove your claim. To make it fair, I'll state why I don't believe in god BUT this is not saying that god does not exist. I don't believe in god because the bible is complete nonsense, riddled with contradictions (despite the fact that its followers tend to ignore these contradictions), and the philosophy I do not agree with. I don't like the idea of going on my knees and begging to some powerful being to grant me something, lowering my self-worth, responsibility and accepting what works I have done. It lowers responsibility because if you "sin", all you do is confess and get forgiven, something I find absurd. Also, the phrases such as "thank God!" constantly show that you don't accept the work you've done, it's not your doing, it's god's doing. It lowers self-worth because it doesn't matter what you do, your future is planned. Argue if you will about free will but if god made you and his divine plan, he's not going to go out of his way with his plan to fit your needs. Therefore, you're not truly living your life, you're living the life the way someone else made you to, as though you're a little toy soldier. As for science, although it cannot answers all the questions, it does give me some evidence, it is empirical, objective and the questions never stop. It seeks to find out the causes, then once those are discovered, those causes and so forth. Believing in god, the answer is always "god did it!", which to me I cannot accept. I want to know the intricate details, not always hear someone did it.


You can not even write an essay to your disbelief in God. Snap out of your dream and wake up to reality. Smart people are in touch with reality. Smart people are correct. GOD EXIST.

This is why you're called ignorant and arrogant. The people "out of reality" would be schizophrenics whenever they have a hallucination. So are they stupid? No. John Nash was a paranoid schizophrenic and he's no idiot. Smart people are not always correct. Pick a scientist, were they always correct? Sometimes they were but were they always? No. you have yet to prove to me and others that god exists.

Smart people do not believe that EVERTHING IS CREATED BY NOTHING. Stupid people do.[/QUOTE]

Scientist through their intelligence realized that there is "INTELLIGENT DESIGN" in the universe and that is how they discovered God.

... is that your proof that god exists? Intelligent design assumes something higher up made it, doesn't have to be your god. It can be 10 gods, maybe 15 goddesses who made it. All it shows is that something, one or more beings made it. Doesn't say which one, doesn't say how, doesn't say how many made it.


I have written so many reasons why GOD EXIST. Not one atheist here have written anything on your disbelief.

Once again, you've proven people appeal to authority. That is not a proof that god exists. Look above, I've written my reasons for not believing in god.


But that is not my point. All I am asking is that why has not one single atheist in this tread has written any factual, valid and something that is historically documented the reason for not believing in the existence of God?

What I have written may not be historically documented for the simple reasons that belief in a god is subjective. Whether the reasons for belief are documented in history is of no regard. You believe for your own reasons. If my reasons for disbelief are not historically documented, then so be it.


Sugar and Spice - I know you are a very caring and loving person...if you love people and care about people, perhaps you should convince me that I am being mislead. The fact that you do love people and you do care about people, is contradictory to atheism. If an atheist does not believe in God, they why do good? There is no hell and there in no heaven to an atheist....right? So why bother being good?

Define "good".

[Church]

There is no hell and there in no heaven to an atheist....right? So why bother being good?

Believing is a God or reading the bible doesn't define a "good" person, most things said in the Bible about being a good person are common sense, not like if people don't read the Bible they are going to go around raping and killing

[Camazotz]

[Okay..so what's a little daring here but to give the Atheist some chance to explain. The truth is these atheists CAN NOT prove that God does not exist. Therefore, they can not prove your disbelief.

Yes, however there is no evidence to believe in God. Therefore I cannot logically believe in God. I can randomly have faith, but that would be impractical.

MY PROOF THAT GOD EXIST: Famous Scientists Who Believed in God

Rich Deem
Nicholas Copernicus (1473-1543)
Copernicus was the Polish astronomer who put forward the first mathematically based system of planets going around the sun. He attended various European universities, and became a Canon in the Catholic church in 1497. His new system was actually first presented in the Vatican gardens in 1533 before Pope Clement VII who approved, and urged Copernicus to publish it around this time. Copernicus was never under any threat of religious persecution - and was urged to publish both by Catholic Bishop Guise, Cardinal Schonberg, and the Protestant Professor George Rheticus. Copernicus referred sometimes to God in his works, and did not see his system as in conflict with the Bible.
Sir Francis Bacon (1561-1627)
Bacon was a philosopher who is known for establishing the scientific method of inquiry based on experimentation and inductive reasoning. In De Interpretatione Naturae Prooemium, Bacon established his goals as being the discovery of truth, service to his country, and service to the church. Although his work was based upon experimentation and reasoning, he rejected atheism as being the result of insufficient depth of philosophy, stating, "It is true, that a little philosophy inclineth man’s mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds about to religion; for while the mind of man looketh upon second causes scattered, it may sometimes rest in them, and go no further; but when it beholdeth the chain of them confederate, and linked together, it must needs fly to Providence and Deity." (Of Atheism)
Johannes Kepler (1571-1630)
Kepler was a brilliant mathematician and astronomer. He did early work on light, and established the laws of planetary motion about the sun. He also came close to reaching the Newtonian concept of universal gravity - well before Newton was born! His introduction of the idea of force in astronomy changed it radically in a modern direction. Kepler was an extremely sincere and pious Lutheran, whose works on astronomy contain writings about how space and the heavenly bodies represent the Trinity. Kepler suffered no persecution for his open avowal of the sun-centered system, and, indeed, was allowed as a Protestant to stay in Catholic Graz as a Professor (1595-1600) when other Protestants had been expelled!
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Galileo is often remembered for his conflict with the Roman Catholic Church. His controversial work on the solar system was published in 1633. It had no proofs of a sun-centered system (Galileo's telescope discoveries did not indicate a moving earth) and his one "proof" based upon the tides was invalid. It ignored the correct elliptical orbits of planets published twenty five years earlier by Kepler. Since his work finished by putting the Pope's favorite argument in the mouth of the simpleton in the dialogue, the Pope (an old friend of Galileo's) was very offended. After the "trial" and being forbidden to teach the sun-centered system, Galileo did his most useful theoretical work, which was on dynamics. Galileo expressly said that the Bible cannot err, and saw his system as an alternate interpretation of the biblical texts.
Rene Descartes (1596-1650)
Descartes was a French mathematician, scientist and philosopher who has been called the father of modern philosophy. His school studies made him dissatisfied with previous philosophy: He had a deep religious faith as a Roman Catholic, which he retained to his dying day, along with a resolute, passionate desire to discover the truth. At the age of 24 he had a dream, and felt the vocational call to seek to bring knowledge together in one system of thought. His system began by asking what could be known if all else were doubted - suggesting the famous "I think therefore I am". Actually, it is often forgotten that the next step for Descartes was to establish the near certainty of the existence of God - for only if God both exists and would not want us to be deceived by our experiences - can we trust our senses and logical thought processes. God is, therefore, central to his whole philosophy. What he really wanted to see was that his philosophy be adopted as standard Roman Catholic teaching. Rene Descartes and Francis Bacon (1561-1626) are generally regarded as the key figures in the development of scientific methodology. Both had systems in which God was important, and both seem more devout than the average for their era.
Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
In optics, mechanics, and mathematics, Newton was a figure of undisputed genius and innovation. In all his science (including chemistry) he saw mathematics and numbers as central. What is less well known is that he was devoutly religious and saw numbers as involved in understanding God's plan for history from the Bible. He did a considerable work on biblical numerology, and, though aspects of his beliefs were not orthodox, he thought theology was very important. In his system of physics, God is essential to the nature and absoluteness of space. In Principia he stated, "The most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion on an intelligent and powerful Being."
Robert Boyle (1791-1867)
One of the founders and key early members of the Royal Society, Boyle gave his name to "Boyle's Law" for gases, and also wrote an important work on chemistry. Encyclopedia Britannica says of him: "By his will he endowed a series of Boyle lectures, or sermons, which still continue, 'for proving the Christian religion against notorious infidels...' As a devout Protestant, Boyle took a special interest in promoting the Christian religion abroad, giving money to translate and publish the New Testament into Irish and Turkish. In 1690 he developed his theological views in The Christian Virtuoso, which he wrote to show that the study of nature was a central religious duty." Boyle wrote against atheists in his day (the notion that atheism is a modern invention is a myth), and was clearly much more devoutly Christian than the average in his era.
Michael Faraday (1791-1867)
Michael Faraday was the son of a blacksmith who became one of the greatest scientists of the 19th century. His work on electricity and magnetism not only revolutionized physics, but led to much of our lifestyles today, which depends on them (including computers and telephone lines and, so, web sites). Faraday was a devoutly Christian member of the Sandemanians, which significantly influenced him and strongly affected the way in which he approached and interpreted nature. Originating from Presbyterians, the Sandemanians rejected the idea of state churches, and tried to go back to a New Testament type of Christianity.
Gregor Mendel (1822-1884)
Mendel was the first to lay the mathematical foundations of genetics, in what came to be called "Mendelianism". He began his research in 1856 (three years before Darwin published his Origin of Species) in the garden of the Monastery in which he was a monk. Mendel was elected Abbot of his Monastery in 1868. His work remained comparatively unknown until the turn of the century, when a new generation of botanists began finding similar results and "rediscovered" him (though their ideas were not identical to his). An interesting point is that the 1860's was notable for formation of the X-Club, which was dedicated to lessening religious influences and propagating an image of "conflict" between science and religion. One sympathizer was Darwin's cousin Francis Galton, whose scientific interest was in genetics (a proponent of eugenics - selective breeding among humans to "improve" the stock). He was writing how the "priestly mind" was not conducive to science while, at around the same time, an Austrian monk was making the breakthrough in genetics. The rediscovery of the work of Mendel came too late to affect Galton's contribution.
William Thomson Kelvin (1824-1907)
Kelvin was foremost among the small group of British scientists who helped to lay the foundations of modern physics. His work covered many areas of physics, and he was said to have more letters after his name than anyone else in the Commonwealth, since he received numerous honorary degrees from European Universities, which recognized the value of his work. He was a very committed Christian, who was certainly more religious than the average for his era. Interestingly, his fellow physicists George Gabriel Stokes (1819-1903) and James Clerk Maxwell (1831-1879) were also men of deep Christian commitment, in an era when many were nominal, apathetic, or anti-Christian. The Encyclopedia Britannica says "Maxwell is regarded by most modern physicists as the scientist of the 19th century who had the greatest influence on 20th century physics; he is ranked with Sir Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein for the fundamental nature of his contributions." Lord Kelvin was an Old Earth creationist, who estimated the Earth's age to be somewhere between 20 million and 100 million years, with an upper limit at 500 million years based on cooling rates (a low estimate due to his lack of knowledge about radiogenic heating).
Max Planck (1858-1947)
Planck made many contributions to physics, but is best known for quantum theory, which revolutionized our understanding of the atomic and sub-atomic worlds. In his 1937 lecture "Religion and Naturwissenschaft," Planck expressed the view that God is everywhere present, and held that "the holiness of the unintelligible Godhead is conveyed by the holiness of symbols." Atheists, he thought, attach too much importance to what are merely symbols. Planck was a churchwarden from 1920 until his death, and believed in an almighty, all-knowing, beneficent God (though not necessarily a personal one). Both science and religion wage a "tireless battle against skepticism and dogmatism, against unbelief and superstition" with the goal "toward God!"
Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
Einstein is probably the best known and most highly revered scientist of the twentieth century, and is associated with major revolutions in our thinking about time, gravity, and the conversion of matter to energy (E=mc2). Although never coming to belief in a personal God, he recognized the impossibility of a non-created universe. The Encyclopedia Britannica says of him: "Firmly denying atheism, Einstein expressed a belief in "Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of what exists." This actually motivated his interest in science, as he once remarked to a young physicist: "I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details." Einstein's famous epithet on the "uncertainty principle" was "God does not play dice" - and to him this was a real statement about a God in whom he believed. A famous saying of his was "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

QUESTION: Are your smarter than any of these scientist? I know I am not.

No, however that does not make any of these men correct. And as you quoted from Einstein, "...Religion without science is blind."

OH NO...I just started to prove that GOD EXIST.

These scientist believed in God because of science. With all due respect to your "intelligence" (and its not brain surgery here), perhaps you should give some scientific fact or data or your own theory that your God does not exist.

However, with the conditions you've mentioned that an ATHEIST CAN NOT PROVE GOD DOES NOT exist....I think your arguement is just a lost cause.

CONCLUSION: ATHEIST HAS NO REASON FOR DISBELIEVING IN THE EXISTENCE OF GOD.

Actually, I do have a reason for not believing in God. And you have not presented any kind of evidence supporting God.

You are just making yourself look like an ignorant, arrogant pillock as there is NO concluding evidence for OR against God's existence.

Agreed.:yes:

Your entire post is an 'Appeal to Authority' fallacy, Prince. Saying smarter people believe the same things you do does not make it correct.

Also agree.

Then what makes your explanation for your disbelief in the existence of God? As far as I know, an atheist is someone who believes that everything was created by nothing.

An INSANE person is defined as someone who Unsoundness of mind sufficient in the judgment. A person unfit to maintain a contractual or other legal relationship or to warrant commitment to a mental health facility. Insane person is not in touch with reality.

How can person as smart of you not see the REALITY that EVERYTHING IS NOT CREATED BY NOTHING?

Your reply has never given a single fact, not one single reason or any logical explanation that GOD does not EXIST. And you expect that the readers will think God does not exist??? All you've done is reply with negative comment with nothing to back you up.

I have been called arrogant, ignorant and concluding no evidence. I am the one who have been writing why believe in God. And here you are offering NOTHING. My entire post make full of sense, factual, written in history and are recorded in books. Your post has NOTHING but your little INSANE statements with NOTHING from facts, NOTHING from history, and NOTHING from reason.

You can not even write an essay to your disbelief in God. Snap out of your dream and wake up to reality. Smart people are in touch with reality. Smart people are correct. GOD EXIST.

Smart people do not believe that EVERTHING IS CREATED BY NOTHING. Stupid people do.

Unfortunately, you are the one who needs to wake up. You're obviously biased and ignorant to the evidence disproving God. Calling an atheist stupid is not very wise when you cannot prove your point.

Intelligence is not defined by religious beliefs. Just because we do not share the same belief system does not make either one of us stupid and the other smart.

And no one has written your essay because why should we have to?
I certainly will not spend my time writing an essay on what I believe and why because some arrogant 15 year old has demanded that I do it. If I were to do it, it would be because I want to do it of my free will.

If you demand that I, as an atheist, write an essay on why I believe there is no God, then I demand that you, as a Christian, write one first on why there is a God.

Completely agree.

Scientist through their intelligence realized that there is "INTELLIGENT DESIGN" in the universe and that is how they discovered God.

I have written so many reasons why GOD EXIST. Not one atheist here have written anything on your disbelief. I am sorry if I called anyone stupid. Stupid is defines as

1 - lacking ordinary quickness and keenness of mind; dull.
2 - characterized by or proceeding from mental dullness; foolish; senseless:
3 - tediously dull, esp. due to lack of meaning or sense; inane; pointless:

But that is not my point. All I am asking is that why has not one single atheist in this tread has written any factual, valid and something that is historically documented the reason for not believing in the existence of God?

Sugar and Spice - I know you are a very caring and loving person...if you love people and care about people, perhaps you should convince me that I am being mislead. The fact that you do love people and you do care about people, is contradictory to atheism. If an atheist does not believe in God, they why do good? There is no hell and there in no heaven to an atheist....right? So why bother being good?

We are "good" to help other people. Sometimes to make ourselves feel better, but the fact remains that when I make other people feel good, I feel good too. Not because "God" wants us to.

Believing is a God or reading the bible doesn't define a "good" person, most things said in the Bible about being a good person are common sense, not like if people don't read the Bible they are going to go around raping and killing

I can't stop agreeing with Heather. I could try, but it would just be wrong.

[Church]

[

I can't stop agreeing with Heather. I could try, but it would just be wrong.

I hate to bring this off topic for a second but who is Heather?

[Atonement]

I hate to bring this off topic for a second but who is Heather?

That could be handled by PM or by asking another member privately, they probably know.

But, Heather is Sugar and Spice

EDIT: Damn, I'm sorry. I wasn't paying attention. I'm sorry. I got it wrong.

Anyway, I am not going to come backhere, hopefully, but I have to say,

"If a person doesn't believe in heaven, then they die and nothing happens, they won't know if they were right or wrong because their dead."

"If a person believes in heaven and dies without going and is wrong, they won't know if they were wrong because they are dead."

"The only people that will get any satisfaction out of this is the person that believes in Heaven and is right because they are the only ones to find out the truth, but only if they are right"

Ironic.

[theOperaGhost]

That could be handled by PM or by asking another member privately, they probably know.

But, Heather is Sugar and Spice

Anyway, I am not going to come backhere, hopefully, but I have to say,

"If a person doesn't believe in heaven, then they die and nothing happens, they won't know if they were right or wrong because their dead."

"If a person believes in heaven and dies without going and is wrong, they won't know if they were wrong because they are dead."

"The only people that will get any satisfaction out of this is the person that believes in Heaven and is right because they are the only ones to find out the truth, but only if they are right"

Ironic.

Actually, Heather's username is Silence and she has nothing to do with this thread. It was simply a mistake. The person they were referring to as Heather was Sugar and Spice, however Heather is not her name.

Now please return to the topic, thank you.

[Prince_of_Peace]

The reason why there is a universe, the world, the galaxies, earth, moon, black holes, star is because God created them. They did not just appeared there from no where. NOTHING can not create EVERYTHING. That is what atheist people believe. If an atheist will believe that NOTHING CREATED EVERYTHING, then that is plain STUPID and INSANE. Things do not appear out of nowhere!

#2. How does an atheist explain people with demonic possessions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmIWpdwNEKE&feature=related

If demons believe that there is a God, then perhaps you should believe that even the demons believe in God.

Do not believe to the LIES atheists say. GOD IS REAL.

[Oblivion]

OK, so... Do you have any facts (–noun 1. something that actually exists; reality; truth) that support your religious beliefs?
I have not seen any in this thread...

As for atheists, it is true we cannot prove Christianity isn't real- as I would hope many atheists agree, there is a minute chance that Christianity is real, although the chances are 1/infinity (since there are infinite possibilities, and evolution and the big bang is becoming even more realistic), which is approximately 0. But likewise, Christians, nor any religion, can prove their religion does exist.

By the way- proof does not include smart people who are religious.
Hitler's IQ was estimated between 145 and 150. He's smarter than most of us, most likely including you. Does that make what he did the right thing? Is that proof enough that everyone that isn't white, christian, blond, and blue eyed isn't perfect and needs to die? No. It's not.

[Prince_of_Peace]

Okay atheists....then where did EVERYTHING come from?

[Oblivion]

That's a question that I can't answer, because I haven't studied it.

I will however point out that I would rather leave the question unanswered, than assume it was a manlike magical beings that watches over us.
But then again, that's the point of religion- to answer the unanswerable, in a quick and easy fashion.

[Prince_of_Peace]

Why accept to be ignorant of the origiin of EVERYTHING than accept there is a God? Do you have something against God?

[Oblivion]

I would rather not know something than choose to believe there is a magical being hovering in heaven watching everyone at once. As humans we can't know the 'origin of EVERYTHING'. It's impossible.

[Antares]

Okay, we have something against God because NO one can prove that he exists...
You have NOT proven he does.
I have not seen any evidence whatsoever.

And also, the scientists, umm, basically either you blieved in god at that time or you died...the Pope can be a bit harsh...

Prince, you are fighting an uphill battle, you should send in the reinforcements.

[Sage]

I'd much rather say "I don't know" than simply fill in the void with "God did it".

Let me summarise your latest point, Joel- What you're basically saying is "You don't have the answer to everything, therefore God did it."

Do you have something against God?

Quite frankly, Joel, yeah, I do. I'll repost what I posted in my diary, when someone asked me why I became an atheist.

I've always been a skeptic, I guess. I'm a fairly quiet person in real life, and I make it a habit to not trust many people. I forgot how it started exactly, but I mostly just got into the habit of researching religion, history, and science, and I found a lot of things in the Bible didn't add up. And yes, I was a christian once.

Maybe I'm arrogant? The idea of religion as a whole displeases me. "You were born with something wrong about you, and you must believe to cleanse yourself."

The idea that something greater than myself (ie. a God) made me with some purpose in mind is disturbing as well. Is that not the foundation of tyranny? A supreme being that controls us all, who damns us if we should break his guidelines? I wish to think for myself, I wish to give myself a purpose.

Studying science, I also have a profound interest in the natural world. I step outside and look at woods near my house, the amazing complexity that gradually shaped over an inconcievable amount of time to where it is today. I research space and look at the absolute vastness of the universe (or other universes, though I'm not too sure about that theory yet) and concluding that "God did it" just sort of pisses on the amazingness of it as a whole. It undermines the beauty of reality.

Think about it- For you to be here today, your family has gone through hundreds of thousands of generations, travelled amazing distances over tens of thousands of years, and eventually it came to your parents, who had sex and by chance, your sperm cell made it to birth. If you changed even one tiny detail in your family's history, it's almost garuanteed you would not be here today.

The universe runs on chance. It is not random, but it is based on chance. The two are different. There is such an unimaginably small chance that you are you here and now, that you should truly consider yourself lucky to be alive- Because it's the only life you get.

If other people want to undermine the grandeur of the universe by blaming it all on a lonely deity, that's fine with me. I, however, would be better off not wasting my short time here on such delusions.

Hopefully that should clear some things up as to why I think the way I think.

[Prince_of_Peace]

H2O is water in liquid form, ice in solid form and evaporating steam as gas. In other words, you do not believe H20 have three natures because you can not see, touch, or feel it? Then atheism is false reality base on senses...hahahha.

Thanks for your recommendation...however the atheists need reinforcement not me.

[Oblivion]

Prince, you have given no reinforcements... And many atheists have given reinforcements. I agree with Deschain that all religion is doing is replacing 'I don't know' with 'Goddidit'

And actually, you can see, and feel (feel and touch are the same thing, btw) all three forms of H2O quite easily. Steam is very visible, and hot/watery to the touch. Ice cubes are cold, and since they are solid... also quite visible. I should hope everyone has felt and seen liquid water...

[Prince_of_Peace]

So why be good if there is no God?

[Oblivion]

We have evolved so that our minds tell us what other humans like, so we can recognize how to best cooperate with each other. When we cooperate, and we help each other, the survival rate of our population goes up, which comes back to survival of the fittest. The fittest being humans [at the moment anyways].

[theOperaGhost]

So why be good if there is no God?

Human morality. To maintain society.

[Sage]

So why be good if there is no God?

How many millions of times must this be repeated to you before you listen?

Life is easier when people like you. You do good things, people will like you, and you'll feel better about yourself. It's just that simple.

Saying that we require fear of eternal damnation and torture in a lake of fire to be nice to one another just undermines the goodness of humans. It's called altruism- I'm good for the sake of being good, I expect no reward, the feeling of gratitude and satisfaction I get when I help people is good enough for me.

[Oblivion]

How many millions of times must this be repeated to you before you listen?

Life is easier when people like you. You do good things, people will like you, and you'll feel better about yourself. It's just that simple.

Saying that we require fear of eternal damnation and torture in a lake of fire to be nice to one another just undermines the goodness of humans. It's called altruism- I'm good for the sake of being good, I expect no reward, the feeling of gratitude and satisfaction I get when I help people is good enough for me.

Mhmm. That's another good point.
Do you need the fear of eternal damnation to do good? Is that your only reason?

[Prince_of_Peace]

The question I meant to ask is WHY ARE WE HERE? Is man just a bilogical accident? Is the human race just another state in the process of blind and purposeless evolution? Is this human life just a brief flash of light between the long darkness that proceded the womb, adn an everlasting darkness that will follow the grave? Are we just meaningless speck in the universe, tossed off by the creative power of an uncaring God much as a baseball fan might toss a peanut shell over the shoulder? IS there any design or plan to life, any significance? Where did we come from? AND WHY ARE WE HERE?

These are questions that any intelligent person is bout to ask himself, once he is humble enough to do any serious thinking. You and I know that our lives have purpose.

I believe there is a God because there is a purpose in life....a higher reason for our existence (not because I will be damned to hell if I don't believe in him). I do not take God as a negative but rather in a very positive way.

WHAT IS YOUR PURPOSE OF MAN's EXISTENCE?

[Oblivion]

WHAT IS YOUR PURPOSE OF MAN's EXISTENCE?

That's the main reason religion started. People couldn't deal with not knowing why they were here, so they started to believe a god put us here to live, and if we are good we are happy for eternity, if we are bad, we are sad for eternity.

[Sage]

The question I meant to ask is WHY ARE WE HERE? Is man just a bilogical accident? Is the human race just another state in the process of blind and purposeless evolution? Is this human life just a brief flash of light between the long darkness that proceded the womb, adn an everlasting darkness that will follow the grave? Are we just meaningless speck in the universe, tossed off by the creative power of an uncaring God much as a baseball fan might toss a peanut shell over the shoulder? IS there any design or plan to life, any significance? Where did we come from? AND WHY ARE WE HERE?

These are questions that any intelligent person is bout to ask himself, once he is humble enough to do any serious thinking. You and I know that our lives have purpose.

I believe there is a God because there is a purpose in life....a higher reason for our existence (not because I will be damned to hell if I don't believe in him). I do not take God as a negative but rather in a very positive way.

WHAT IS YOUR PURPOSE OF MAN's EXISTENCE?

What is an ant's purpose? What is a camel's purpose? What is a boulder's purpose? None.

God is there for people who lack the responsibility to give themselves a purpose. This is what life is about- Living well, making a name for yourself, becoming great. To simply say 'my purpose is to appease God' is self-defeating and accomplishes nothing.

And by the by, I would also like to add that this thread is going down a predictable pattern. You make some points, we refute them, and you pull something else out of your ass. Can you start, you know, refuting us now?

[Prince_of_Peace]

Ahh...so Man's purpose is about "living well, making name for yourself and make a name for yourself and become great"...hmm..so why not have sex all the time, have all the money in the world...power and fame and then die. This is exactly Lucifer has tempted Christ after fasting for 40 days and nights at the mountain...
1 - to turn stone into bread (basic needs)
2- to jump of the cliff for angels to catch (magician who wins covert by shows)
3 - to worship Lucifer and be rewarded by all the kingdoms (political liberator)

Can you just imagine if all the people in the world are atheist? This would be a total chaos and the world's population will be left to people like Stalin, Hitler, Trotim Lysenko, Mao Zedong who have contributed to RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION and killed millions and upon millions of human beings.

On the other hand, Christians are taught from the teaching of JESUS CHRIST:
Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are the meek: for they shall possess the land.
Blessed are they who mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill.
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God
Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

..and that is why 1/3 of hospitals in United States are owned by Christians. This is the reason I believe in God. GOD makes people to be HOLY for GOD is HOLY.

A satire to atheism is this: The belief that there was nothing and nothing happened to nothing and then nothing magically exploded for no reason, creating everything and then a bunch of everything magically rearranged itself for no reason what so ever into self-replicating bits which then turned into dinosaurs. Makes perfect sense.

[Oblivion]

..and that is why 1/3 of hospitals in United States are owned by Christians. This is the reason I believe in God. GOD makes people to be HOLY for GOD is HOLY.
And that has any relevance... How?


I don't understand how you can possibly say evolution doesn't make sense.
Instead, God appears out of nowhere and makes the earth? What did he make it out of? Where did he come from? What was before him? What made him?

[Prince_of_Peace]

I am happy you asked. Your questions is basically, "WHO IS GOD?"

The first reason, then - the big reason why God made the universe and us - was to give glory to himself, by showing forth his infinite power and goodness. His infinite power is shown forth by the fact that we exist. His infininte goodness is shown by the fact that he wills to share his own infinite love and happiness with us.

God made us to share with us his everlasting happiness in heaven.

[Oblivion]

Instead, God appears out of nowhere and makes the earth? What did he make it out of? Where did he come from? What was before him? What made him?
I quoted it, because you didn't answer any of the questions.
I asked What not Why
And you didn't even attempt to answer the next three questions.

[Prince_of_Peace]

God is everlasting or beggining or end. God is spirit. God is created everything and thus he is the CREATOR and everything is his CREATION. There is nothing before him.

That is why if there is no God, there wont be anything.
If there is no God, there won't be an atheist.

[Oblivion]

What did he make it out of? Where did he come from? What was before him? What made him?
You still haven't answered what god made the earth out of, where he came from [even if he is everlasting... are you saying he came from nothing? You already said that was impossible.] or what made him?

[Prince_of_Peace]

Where did God come from?
We can only partially comprehend the notion of God's existence. To do so, we must use human concepts to speak of God: "without beginning or end"; "eternal"; "infinite", etc. The Bible says that He has always existed: " . . . even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God" (Psalm 90:2). And, "Your throne is established from of old; Thou art from everlasting" (Psalm 93:2). Quite simply, God has no beginning and no end. So, where did God come from? He didn't. He always was.

To us, the notion of time is linear. One second follows the next, one minute is after another. We get older, not younger and we cannot repeat the minutes that have passed us by. We have all seen the time lines on charts: early time is on the left and later time is on the right. We see nations, people's lives, and plans mapped out on straight lines from left to right. We see a beginning and an end. But God is "beyond the chart." He has no beginning or end. He simply has always been.

Also, physics has shown that time is a property that is the result of the existence of matter. Time exists when matter exists. Time has even been called the fourth dimension. But God is not matter. In fact, God created matter. He created the universe. So, time began when God created the universe. Before that, God was simply existing and time had no meaning (except conceptually), no relation to Him. Therefore, to ask where God came from is to ask a question that cannot really be applied to God in the first place. Because time has no meaning with God in relation to who He is, eternity is also not something that can be absolutely related to God. God is even beyond eternity.

Eternity is a term that we finite creatures use to express the concept of something that has no end -- and/or no beginning. Since God has no beginning or end, He has no beginning. This is because He is outside of time.


QUESTION: Would atheism exist if there is no God?

[Oblivion]

Would atheism exist if there is no God?
It exists now, doesn't it?

[pizzamon]

If God didn't exist nor would humanity, thus there wouldn't be Atheism or any religion for that matter.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

If God didn't exist nor would humanity, thus there wouldn't be Atheism or any religion for that matter.

Um... no. Atheism is the LACK of a BELIEF in God. Without OTHER PEOPLE who actually do believe in God, there wouldn't be a need for our position.

If BELIEF in Gods didn't exist, then there wouldn't need to be a "special name" for those who happen to not SHARE that same belief. Religion exists, and no God actually has to exist for them to be there. Might seem bleak to a theist, but every religion in the world can (and I think in fact DOES) exist without any actually REAL deity existing.

[pizzamon]

You have a right to your opinion. But answer this have you never thought there has to be a higher power?

[Oblivion]

...Why does there have to be a higher power?

[ThatCanadianGuy]

You have a right to your opinion. But answer this have you never thought there has to be a higher power?

I was a devout Christian for 14 years, and now I'm an atheist. I've probably considered this idea more critically than you have thus far.

It doesn't matter if you have this "feeling" that its true. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that this is true. Of course, if you have some then you're welcome to present it.

[INFERNO]

The reason why there is a universe, the world, the galaxies, earth, moon, black holes, star is because God created them. They did not just appeared there from no where. NOTHING can not create EVERYTHING. That is what atheist people believe. If an atheist will believe that NOTHING CREATED EVERYTHING, then that is plain STUPID and INSANE. Things do not appear out of nowhere!

Did you ignore the long post I made or did you not see it? Learn what atheism is, you seem to have some twisted view of it. Since you seem to have not read my last post, I'll restate what I said: most atheists believe in the Big Bang Theory. That is something, not nothing. Read up on it, you may learn something.


Do not believe to the LIES atheists say. GOD IS REAL.

You know, this may be just a rather silly question but PROVE YOUR GOD IS REAL. Up to now, you've been giving random babble that hasn't come close to proving it. So, prove it.

So, here's a question, something I posed in a thread I made here before. I want to see you explain it. You claim got created everything including himself. You take the bible literally (as shown in the 2 quotes from Psalm), so i shall do the same, just so we use the same methods and play fair.

If god made us in his own image, then literally, how does god exist? Human DNA uses semi-conservative replication, which suggests the god would have had 2 parents OR that 2 parts of god fused together. However, the fusing part doesn't happen with humans. So, how can we have this type of DNA replication if we were made literally, in the image of god? The possible argument is well, god has that kind of DNA because he's just that good. But, I remember there being a part of the bible saying god is not a human and presumably, has no physical human characteristics (he's a spirit). So, this idea of DNA makes no sense, unless of course we consider evolution, which can offer some explanations. But I'm not here to harp on about evolution. I want you to explain how this is possible. And don't, please don't give me this lame excuse of "god did it" because that will be a nice contradiction to the bible.

"
A satire to atheism is this: The belief that there was nothing and nothing happened to nothing and then nothing magically exploded for no reason, creating everything and then a bunch of everything magically rearranged itself for no reason what so ever into self-replicating bits which then turned into dinosaurs. Makes perfect sense"

Have you even thought about how your belief sounds? Some magical bearded man, made everything, and he made people a list of 10 things not to do or he'll make you suffer for an eternity yet still somehow love you. Making random things by the snap of the fingers? You cant think evolution sounds like hogwash yet think your belief makes perfect sense. But, to make sure you understand, let me point out the similarity with what you said and your belief: "The belief that there was nothing and nothing happened to nothing and then nothing magically exploded for no reason, creating everything and then a bunch of everything magically". That is the EXACT SAME as your belief. I cannot see how you can deny that. God created himself magically then magically made everything else appear from nothing. Do you see the similarities?

[roof]

If God didn't exist nor would humanity, thus there wouldn't be Atheism or any religion for that matter.

You did it. You tried to pull the philosophical/paradoxical crap.
Here we go.

"God" is all omnipotent, omniscient, and all good (benevolent) right?
Then explain why there is evil in the world. If he allows evil he is malevolent if he doesn't know about it he is not omniscient/omnipotent.

Can god make a stone so heavy he cannot lift it?

The paradoxes work either way so don't go there.

[Perseus]

Inferno, Im a Christian that believes in the Big Bang Theory, simply God just sparked that egg like thing to explode and cause inflation to spread matter all over the vastness of space.

[INFERNO]

Inferno, Im a Christian that believes in the Big Bang Theory, simply God just sparked that egg like thing to explode and cause inflation to spread matter all over the vastness of space.

And the egg came from?

[Prince_of_Peace]

Where did the Big Bang came from? Big Bang just did not come out of nothing.

LOGICAL REASON FOR BELIEVING IN GOD:

Atheism exist because God exist. How could someone have disbelieve on "something" if that "something" does not exist in the first place. Prohibitions come from changing something. Can you change something if there isn't anything to change in the first place?

People have continually tried to LIE about the existence of God because they are not in touch with REALITY. GOD EXISTS. People like Charles Manson are INSANE.

[Mzor203]

Maybe God exists. But how do you know it's the Christian God? maybe it was Zeus who created the universe, you really can't tell, and can't come up with proof to prove otherwise.

[Camazotz]

Where did the Big Bang came from? Big Bang just did not come out of nothing.

It did not come out of "nothing". We do not have enough evidence to say what it did come from, so it remains a mystery.

LOGICAL REASON FOR BELIEVING IN GOD:
Atheism exist because God exist.

No, atheism exists because people believe God exists. There's a big difference between the two.

How could someone have disbelieve on "something" if that "something" does not exist in the first place.

I can disbelieve in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Godzilla, King Kong, or even God. Just because someone does believe that one of these fictional creatures exist, does not mean it does exist. It can mean that people have blind faith without any evidence, which is a poor reason to have faith.

People have continually tried to LIE about the existence of God because they are not in touch with REALITY. GOD EXISTS.

As I and many people on VT have tried to explain, God does not exist with the evidence provided. If you care to share indisputable evidence that God exists, I would gladly believe in Him. But until then, I have not seen any evidence to support the theory of God. Therefore, I cannot logically believe in God. I can blindly have faith in Him (like you), but it would be illogical and unintelligent.

People like Charles Manson are INSANE. Charles Manson was raised Christian, and later studied Scientology. So yes, you could say people like Charles Manson are insane. At one point he believed he was Jesus. According to your previous theory, if somebody believes something, it must be true. Therefore, you think he was Jesus?

This statement was random and the least helpful in a Christian VS. Atheist debate. (At least for the Christian side)

[Church]

Atheism exist because God exist.

Hate to sound like a jerk, but do you look at what you type or do you just randomly hit keys? There doesn't need to be a God for people to be Atheist, it's no belief in a God, don't need a God for that to work

[ThatCanadianGuy]

Where did the Big Bang came from? Big Bang just did not come out of nothing.

LOGICAL REASON FOR BELIEVING IN GOD:

Atheism exist because God exist. How could someone have disbelieve on "something" if that "something" does not exist in the first place. Prohibitions come from changing something. Can you change something if there isn't anything to change in the first place?

People have continually tried to LIE about the existence of God because they are not in touch with REALITY. GOD EXISTS. People like Charles Manson are INSANE.

It seems that you don't even read what we have typed, and just continue to repeat what we've already shot down as nonsense. I already said that atheism is the lack of a BELIEF in god. It doesn't take a real god for that to happen, it just means that other people have to BELIEVE its true.

That's like saying A-santa-ists exist because Santa is real. No, it just means that certain people are intelligent enough to review the evidence for Santa's existence and lack any believe that he is real.

If all you can do is spout off canned phrases that have been beaten into your head by your religion, you shouldn't be the one to tell US that we aren't in touch with reality.

Charles Manson IS pretty much insane. Why is he even relevant to this debate? Jeffrey Dahmer is insane, he in fact DID kill and EAT many young men. And guess what? He was just as religious as YOU ARE.

Atheism exists because people like YOU exist, not the god that you imagine is real.

[INFERNO]

Where did the Big Bang came from? Big Bang just did not come out of nothing.

LOGICAL REASON FOR BELIEVING IN GOD:

Atheism exist because God exist. How could someone have disbelieve on "something" if that "something" does not exist in the first place. Prohibitions come from changing something. Can you change something if there isn't anything to change in the first place?

People have continually tried to LIE about the existence of God because they are not in touch with REALITY. GOD EXISTS. People like Charles Manson are INSANE.

Ah, so every single non-believer is not in touch with reality? If you are so keen for saying god exists, I've yet to see you prove it. Over and over, it's the same stuff, you ranting that god exists, beating down atheists and that's it. I want some solid proof, not random babble.

Why bring in Manson? Why not Elizabeth Bathory or Ed Gein (not a serial killer), etc...? More random babble.

Most of this can be flipped and said at christianity; where did god come from? Nothing, he made himself.

So, stop with this endless preaching and useless ranting and give some proof, as you constantly claim god exists.

[Prince_of_Peace]

God is spirit and does not have any DNA or physical form. Wihtout usting the Holy BIble, there are facts the exist today which prove God exist. Take for example the bodies of very holy people that are still intact after hundreds of years:

http://www.overcomeproblems.com/incorruptables.htm

The apparition of Mary (Mother of Jesus) to the three little children in Portugal in 1917 (which I have posted earlier that atheist never reputed to be untrue). There are miracles that are scientifically documented that is continually happening to present day in Fatima, Porgutal. Millions of people flock there to pray.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagerender.fcgi?artid=1955914&pageindex=1

These are clear and visible signs of God's presence in our world. God is present because Theism has played major role in peoples lives that created world history. Take example Ferdinand Magellan who circumnavigated the world to promulgate Christianity. Another example is the 21 missions in California.

http://boxer.senate.gov/services/CAlinks/missions/miss.cfm#07

I have posted the exorcism of Emily Rose which is fully documented to be true and accurate. Even the demons believe there is a God.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exorcism_of_Emily_Rose


These are SOME evidence for the existance of God.

DOES AN ATHEIST HAVE ANY (and i mean any) EVIDENCE THAT GOD DOES NOT EXIST? N O T H I N G.

[Mzor203]

Maybe God exists. But how do you know it's the Christian God? maybe it was Zeus who created the universe, you really can't tell, and can't come up with proof to prove otherwise.

I quote myself. You never refuted this. I do not refute that God may exist. The chance that He is the Christian God however, is very slim.

EDIT: And no one refuted this, which I posted earlier:

Okay, so I am looking for someone to have a heated debate with because I'm bored. ^_^

The problem I'm seeing here is that, one side of you guys are arguing based of judgements and facts that can e proven, while the other side is arguing based off of faith. The thing is, no one has seen heaven or hell, thus we can not know for 100% fact that t exists.

So now I'm going to put forward a new point.

Let's take me for example. I'm an agnostic. My views are very open, and I'd be willing to latch onto a religion if someone showed to me that it had something to back it, and it was based on a concrete idea that made sense. Now, according to Christians, since I don't believe in God directly, I'm going to hell. :(

Now, why is this? The thing is, I was brought up in an Atheist home. So because my beliefs were pretty much drilled into my head through my childhood, where I had no say in the matter, I'm going to hell. Wtf? I'm sorry my beliefs were drilled into me. Now, if I wanted to change, I have, what, only 50,000 religions to choose from. And only one is the right one. And no matter ho I talk to, everyone is going to tell me that a speific, different religion is the right one.

So, pretty much, I'm fucked. If God put me here, God put me into a position where I'm goin' to hell no matter what I do. That's not exactly very loving, now, is it?

SO obviously, he doesn't care that much about me if he's going to put me in that situation. Which means my prayers aren't worth anything to him, because he obviously doesn't want them. So yeah, why would he put me here in this position? How can you say that I'm going to hell just because I'm not Christian?

Ah well, guess I'm screwed.

See, I'm not refuting that God does exist. I believe there is a God of some sort out there. Now, since that isn't a point you can win over on me, let's go back to the original topic, heaven and hell, which I have presented an argument to which no one has refuted. Does this mean I win that point?

[Oblivion]

I quote myself. You never refuted this. I do not refute that God may exist. The chance that He is the Christian God however, is very slim.

EDIT: And no one refuted this, which I posted earlier:



See, I'm not refuting that God does exist. I believe there is a God of some sort out there. Now, since that isn't a point you can win over on me, let's go back to the original topic, heaven and hell, which I have presented an argument to which no one has refuted. Does this mean I win that point?

As for atheists, it is true we cannot prove Christianity isn't real- as I would hope many atheists agree, there is a minute chance that Christianity is real, although the chances are 1/infinity (since there are infinite possibilities, and evolution and the big bang is becoming even more realistic), which is approximately 0. But likewise, Christians, nor any religion, can prove their religion does exist.


Yup, agreed.

[INFERNO]

God is spirit and does not have any DNA or physical form. Wihtout usting the Holy BIble, there are facts the exist today which prove God exist. Take for example the bodies of very holy people that are still intact after hundreds of years:

http://www.overcomeproblems.com/incorruptables.htm

And what is this meant to prove? Random people were preserved? So god only preserved these very holy people while the others could simply rot? This doesn't prove that your god exists. It proves random statistical probibility of different people, different ages, different lives, different deaths, buried in different ways, places, times and environments. If you want to as far to argue some divine being protected them, it doesn't prove your god did that. It can go as far as saying something that we don't know what, protected them. So this doesn't prove your god exists.


The apparition of Mary (Mother of Jesus) to the three little children in Portugal in 1917 (which I have posted earlier that atheist never reputed to be untrue). There are miracles that are scientifically documented that is continually happening to present day in Fatima, Porgutal. Millions of people flock there to pray.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagerender.fcgi?artid=1955914&pageindex=1

Right... a lady which nobody saw, just some random girl saw, and the church who for some reason came to the conclusion that it must be true, said to make a spring? This is laughable. This seems like a large placebo effect, nothing that proves your god exists. It proves people also listen to authority. As of yet, you still haven't proven your god exists.

These are clear and visible signs of God's presence in our world. God is present because Theism has played major role in peoples lives that created world history.

No, this doesn't prove it either. This proves people listen to authority. Doesn't even scratch the surface of proving a divine being.


Take example Ferdinand Magellan who circumnavigated the world to promulgate Christianity. Another example is the 21 missions in California.

http://boxer.senate.gov/services/CAlinks/missions/miss.cfm#07

OK... well, the link you gave doesn't even have the name "Magellan". The only "Ferdinand" there is of Mission San Fernando Rey de España, of St.Ferdinand III King of Spain. Amazingly, that one doesn't show anything of him travelling the world. It says he built a very big, well-known church that got great wine and got used by prospectors for gold. This proves absolutely nothing for you.


I have posted the exorcism of Emily Rose which is fully documented to be true and accurate. Even the demons believe there is a God.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exorcism_of_Emily_Rose

This doesn't prove a god exists. It proves the medications and her disorder weren't fully understood or people didn't know how to treat. Of course, the idea of it being catatonic schizophrenia would be wrong because the priest who subscribes to demonology doesn't think so and does an exorcism. This is simply a case of untreated catatonic schizophrenia where people decided to take the route of attributing it to demons. Doesn't prove your point.


These are SOME evidence for the existance of God.

No, at most, and this is being very nice, you've barely proven that some divine being(s) may exist. Whether it is your god you haven't proven at all. You haven't even proven it's not a goddess and that there's not multiple gods/goddesses.

DOES AN ATHEIST HAVE ANY (and i mean any) EVIDENCE THAT GOD DOES NOT EXIST? N O T H I N G.

And what evidence do you have that your god exists? N O T H I N G.

OK, let me ask you this. Why didn't god kill Hitler and the Nazis? In the bible god had no problem wiping out cities, so since Hitler and the Nazis didn't believe in god, why didn't god do the same? I suppose the ones in the bible had free will yet god didn't seem to care that much, so why not the Nazis? Hell, why are people who believe in scientology or other beliefs alive? Isn't god supposed to be killing non-believers as he did in the bible?

[Prince_of_Peace]

TO DESCHAIN

The Egyptians built the pyramids as tomb. The Egyptians believed that there is an afterlife, so it was very important to them to protect the bodies of their pharaohs. By the fact that the Egyptians believed that there is an existing supreme being. If the Egyptians are atheists, there will be no Great Pyramids.

Even demons believe in the existence of God. Demons are documented to be true and it is part of the debate especially if subject includes “hell”

Man’s happiness is not supported by material possession. Rich people do not feel loneliness?

You’ve said that “a fetus is not a baby.” That is a lie. Fetuses are babies. They have heads, limbs, arms, fingers, genitals, legs, and feet. See link: http://www.babycenter.com/pregnancy-fetal-development-index
Pro-Choice has not given babies to see the living daylight and they call it a “CHOICE?”


You’ve said “I never claimed that everyone should be an atheist. You are merely trying to prove God exists, and I am refuting your points. I do not need to prove God does not exist, because atheism is not a belief, it is the lack of a belief.” That is another lie. Atheism is defined as “the doctrine or belief that there is no God/disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings. See link: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheism

I have no burden to prove God’s existence. The fact you can not write up “a fine essay with multiple reasons as to why God cannot exist” have just given the reader your credibility.

You said, “The universe runs on chance. It is not random, but it is based on chance. The two are different. There is such an unimaginably small chance that you are you here and now, that you should truly consider yourself lucky to be alive- Because it's the only life you get.” Not true. The perfect design in the universe is NOT by chance. In our day-to-day lives, we come across wonders of design. For example, the bridge we walk across, the skyscraper we work in, elevators, knives and forks, a crocheted tablecloth, our clothing, car, briefcase and eyeglasses, newspapers, television and the pictures on our wall-each of these things was planned, designed and produced by someone of intelligence, knowledge and skill. No one in his right mind would claim that these finely crafted objects in our streets and houses brought themselves into existence by a natural happenstance.
Most likely you don't personally know which engineers, technicians, and workers constructed the bridge you walk across every day, but you are certain that there had to be such people as these. When you see a late model car that you like, you appreciate its designers-even if you never meet them.
So, anywhere we find a product of a planned design, we can always be sure that somewhere, there has been a designer who brought that product into being. But in this matter, Darwinists are prejudiced. Some people, although they are not scientists, maintain that all the superior designs we see in nature, much more wonderful than the ordinary artificial constructions we encounter in everyday life, were formed by chance. They have been conditioned-if not instructed-not to believe in Almighty God, the Creator of all the designs found in the universe.
You’ve asked:
What is an ant's purpose? What is a camel's purpose? What is a boulder's purpose? None.

If I take your poor atheistic reasoning, then your life has no purpose as well. But I know better than that. The purpose of soil is to make plants fertile and bear fruits. The purpose of plants is to create vegetation and feed the animals. And animals have the purpose to fulfill man’s needs. I am sure you do eat chicken, pork, beef and fish.


METALDEATH mentioned that the "Bible" endorses slavery and denounces women as being below men standard-wise. In fact, this is where the colonists argues that slavery should be legal and not abolished: because the "Bible" says that slavery is fine.” You might want to read about in the bible how he Israelites were delivered by God from the ruler of Egyptians to the promise land because they were treated as slaves.” You would like that.


INFERNO – There is a reason why Christians do not believe in scientologist or Vishnu. They are called Christians because they believe Jesus Christ.

“True, you have been using historical facts. I will give you credit for that. However, those facts don't prove your claim. To make it fair, I'll state why I don't believe in god BUT this is not saying that god does not exist. I don't believe in god because the bible is complete nonsense, riddled with contradictions (despite the fact that its followers tend to ignore these contradictions), and the philosophy I do not agree with.”

How would you understand the Bible if you do not believe in God? Nobody has asked you to fall on your knees and beg. Jesus Christ has already paid all of your sins. All you have to do is acknowledge that.

“I don't like the idea of going on my knees and begging to some powerful being to grant me something, lowering my self-worth, responsibility and accepting what works I have done. It lowers responsibility because if you "sin", all you do is confess and get forgiven, something I find absurd.”

Don’t tell me you’ve never apologize to anyone in your life. Muslim cut off people’s hand if they are found steeling. You should be glad words of apologies are sufficient.

“Also, the phrases such as "thank God!" constantly show that you don't accept the work you've done, it's not your doing, it's god's doing. It lowers self-worth because it doesn't matter what you do, your future is planned. Argue if you will about free will but if god made you and his divine plan, he's not going to go out of his way with his plan to fit your needs. Therefore, you're not truly living your life, you're living the life the way someone else made you to, as though you're a little toy soldier.”

When people say “thank God,” they only acknowledge the fact that all good things come from God. After all, even the very air that is in our lungs are from God. No Christian can say that the future has been planned. Christians are even in the greater risk of sinning. There will be more religious people going to hell for they knew it was a sin and yet done it. That is why mortal sin is grave because the person has the full knowledge and acted upon it. If a soldier failed to do his duty, he might suffer death. But if the President of United States committed a grave mistake, the whole nation could be in turmoil. So to more is given, more is required. Trust me, you are more honest than people who call themselves Christians and yet do not practice their faith.

“As for science, although it cannot answer all the questions, it does give me some evidence, it is empirical, objective and the questions never stop. It seeks to find out the causes, then once those are discovered, those causes and so forth. Believing in god, the answer is always "god did it!” which to me I cannot accept. I want to know the intricate details, not always hear someone did it. “

Trust me, I have questions about my faith especially temptation comes and I fail.

I have given you all the reasons why I BELIEVE IN GOD. If I sounded like I am preaching, please forgive me. You guys are really good debaters and I have learned something very valuable in this post. Thank you all and keep up the good work.

[Perseus]

And the egg came from?

The egg was always there, just collecting dust. :P
Then God decided to create matter in this universe by making that egg like thing 'splode and inflate all over the universe in a couple billion years I think, I forgot how long it took but that doesn't matter.

[Sage]

Okay, Prince of Peace. You know what? This is becoming far too tiring. You're just too stupid to understand everything no matter how many times it gets spoon-fed to you. Nevertheless however, I shall try this again.

The Egyptians built the pyramids as tomb. The Egyptians believed that there is an afterlife, so it was very important to them to protect the bodies of their pharaohs. By the fact that the Egyptians believed that there is an existing supreme being. If the Egyptians are atheists, there will be no Great Pyramids.

The Egyptian Gods were not surpreme. They believed in many gods and each had their own flaws and conflicts with the others. Even then however, their beliefs are far more logical and less far-fetched than your own.

I might also remind you that tens of thousands of slaves would work hard their entire lives to build some pretty looking mound of rock for a dead guy. They may look good, but the Great Pyramids are pretty useless and the work put into them is absolutely unncecessary.

Even demons believe in the existence of God. Demons are documented to be true and it is part of the debate especially if subject includes “hell”

Don't say there is evidence for something and not show the evidence. I need irrefutably proof that demons exist. Until then, you're just reciting fiction.

You’ve said that “a fetus is not a baby.” That is a lie. Fetuses are babies. They have heads, limbs, arms, fingers, genitals, legs, and feet. See link: http://www.babycenter.com/pregnancy-...elopment-index
Pro-Choice has not given babies to see the living daylight and they call it a “CHOICE?”

Okay, first off, this is one of those little things you do that just pisses me the fuck off.

If you disagree with something, that does not make it a 'lie'. This makes you come off as a self-righteous bigot and is an insult to the person you are debating.

Now that that's out of the way, what is your definition of a baby? Monkies also have heads, limbs, arms, fingers, and all those things when they are a fetus.

Also, most abortions occur very early in the pregnancy, where the fetus looks something more like this. (http://www.ca.uky.edu/AGC/Magazine/2003/WinterSpring2003/graphics/fetus.jpg)

You’ve said “I never claimed that everyone should be an atheist. You are merely trying to prove God exists, and I am refuting your points. I do not need to prove God does not exist, because atheism is not a belief, it is the lack of a belief.” That is another lie. Atheism is defined as “the doctrine or belief that there is no God/disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings. See link: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheism

Can you read? I never claimed that everyone should be an atheist. This means I'm not shoving my beliefs down another person's throat. Your definitions is completely irrelevent to the point you are trying to make.

You said, “The universe runs on chance. It is not random, but it is based on chance. The two are different. There is such an unimaginably small chance that you are you here and now, that you should truly consider yourself lucky to be alive- Because it's the only life you get.” Not true. The perfect design in the universe is NOT by chance. In our day-to-day lives, we come across wonders of design. For example, the bridge we walk across, the skyscraper we work in, elevators, knives and forks, a crocheted tablecloth, our clothing, car, briefcase and eyeglasses, newspapers, television and the pictures on our wall-each of these things was planned, designed and produced by someone of intelligence, knowledge and skill. No one in his right mind would claim that these finely crafted objects in our streets and houses brought themselves into existence by a natural happenstance.
Most likely you don't personally know which engineers, technicians, and workers constructed the bridge you walk across every day, but you are certain that there had to be such people as these. When you see a late model car that you like, you appreciate its designers-even if you never meet them.
So, anywhere we find a product of a planned design, we can always be sure that somewhere, there has been a designer who brought that product into being. But in this matter, Darwinists are prejudiced. Some people, although they are not scientists, maintain that all the superior designs we see in nature, much more wonderful than the ordinary artificial constructions we encounter in everyday life, were formed by chance. They have been conditioned-if not instructed-not to believe in Almighty God, the Creator of all the designs found in the universe.

Okay, Prince. Let me ask you a question.

Let's say you are walking through a forest and you find a computer tower, a monitor, and keyboard in the middle of a clearing. You know it is not natural, therefore it had to have been man-made, it is artificial.

However, you try to use this argument to prove your God, the Christian God, who is all powerful. However, do you assume the computer is made by a single designer? No.

You assume there are programmers who configured the software, physicians who designed the ergonomics of the keyboard, engineers who made the monitor, etc.

Another point against intelligent design: You compare nature to man-made structures. this is not a fair comparison. Let's take a bridge for example- There are a few core designs, and a lot of variations among them, but overall a bridge looks similar enough to every other bridge to count as a bridge. It is concieved by someone (a 'designer', most likely a structural engineer) and then people work hard to build it.

A bridge is a material object. You try comparing this to things in nature, like a tree. Unfortunately, a tree is a living thing. It is the result of evolution (over a grand scale of time) and reproduction (seeds coming off another tree and falling into the ground) before it became what it is.

You cannot compare material objects to living things in this instance.

If I take your poor atheistic reasoning, then your life has no purpose as well.

That's the exact fucking point I'm trying to make here. Life has no purpose until you give it purpose.

[uqote]I have no burden to prove God’s existence. The fact you can not write up “a fine essay with multiple reasons as to why God cannot exist” have just given the reader your credibility.[/quote]

Pardon me, but it is laughably hypocritical for you to poke fun at somebody else's credibility.

I've tried explaining it a million fucking times to you. You simply do not understand what "burden of evidence" means. There is little point in me arguing with somebody who doesn't even know what they're talking about. Please explain to me what you think "burden of evidence" is.

[Mzor203]

The egg was always there, just collecting dust. :P
Then God decided to create matter in this universe by making that egg like thing 'splode and inflate all over the universe in a couple billion years I think, I forgot how long it took but that doesn't matter.

The big bang took place over the course of less than a second. :P

And Prince of Peace, you still have yet to refute me. Either do so, or state that I win those points.

[Perseus]

No, yes the Big Bang did, but inflation took a while becasue it had to spread the whole universe apart at faster than the speed of light, and the universe is still inflating, in a way, today.
Sorry if that went horribly off topic. :D

[Mzor203]

Oooh, ok, I see what you're saying. Sorry I thought you were saying it took billions of years for this 'egg' to expand into all the matter.

And yeah we're going horribly off topic. :P

[INFERNO]

INFERNO – There is a reason why Christians do not believe in scientologist or Vishnu. They are called Christians because they believe Jesus Christ.

“True, you have been using historical facts. I will give you credit for that. However, those facts don't prove your claim. To make it fair, I'll state why I don't believe in god BUT this is not saying that god does not exist. I don't believe in god because the bible is complete nonsense, riddled with contradictions (despite the fact that its followers tend to ignore these contradictions), and the philosophy I do not agree with.”

How would you understand the Bible if you do not believe in God? Nobody has asked you to fall on your knees and beg. Jesus Christ has already paid all of your sins. All you have to do is acknowledge that.

“I don't like the idea of going on my knees and begging to some powerful being to grant me something, lowering my self-worth, responsibility and accepting what works I have done. It lowers responsibility because if you "sin", all you do is confess and get forgiven, something I find absurd.”

Don’t tell me you’ve never apologize to anyone in your life. Muslim cut off people’s hand if they are found steeling. You should be glad words of apologies are sufficient.

“Also, the phrases such as "thank God!" constantly show that you don't accept the work you've done, it's not your doing, it's god's doing. It lowers self-worth because it doesn't matter what you do, your future is planned. Argue if you will about free will but if god made you and his divine plan, he's not going to go out of his way with his plan to fit your needs. Therefore, you're not truly living your life, you're living the life the way someone else made you to, as though you're a little toy soldier.”

When people say “thank God,” they only acknowledge the fact that all good things come from God. After all, even the very air that is in our lungs are from God. No Christian can say that the future has been planned. Christians are even in the greater risk of sinning. There will be more religious people going to hell for they knew it was a sin and yet done it. That is why mortal sin is grave because the person has the full knowledge and acted upon it. If a soldier failed to do his duty, he might suffer death. But if the President of United States committed a grave mistake, the whole nation could be in turmoil. So to more is given, more is required. Trust me, you are more honest than people who call themselves Christians and yet do not practice their faith.

“As for science, although it cannot answer all the questions, it does give me some evidence, it is empirical, objective and the questions never stop. It seeks to find out the causes, then once those are discovered, those causes and so forth. Believing in god, the answer is always "god did it!” which to me I cannot accept. I want to know the intricate details, not always hear someone did it. “

Trust me, I have questions about my faith especially temptation comes and I fail.



Did you even read what I wrote about scientologists, Vishnu and christians, or just glance at those few words and spew more random nonsense? I'll quote myself about what I said:

If you're calling atheists "insane" then you're way off. A christian can just as easily be insane, as can a muslim or hindu or scientologist or agnostic. Of course, maybe you're saying atheists are insane because they don't believe in your god. If that's the case, I have some news for you: Christians are insane by that logic. They don't believe in the beliefs of scientologists, or in Vishnu therefore, they're insane.

I wasn't asking what christians believe. I was refuting you calling atheists insane. If christians don't believe in Vishnu or scientologists, they're insane. Why? Because according to you, they're not in touch with reality, and of course, reality (according to you) would mean believing in god. With scientologists, they'd call you insane for the same reason. So, to make it as clear as possible, there is no reason to call an atheist nor any other believer "insane" because they don't agree. That was my point. I hope that you can understand, including the examples with scientologists.



How would I understand the bible? Because I used to be a christian, I went to church, went to a christian or catholic (cant remember which one) school for a several years then began thinking. I thought about the belief and the bible as though I was an outsider looking in to try and understand why atheists and non-believers sometimes criticize it so much. I looked to science and realized how I felt like such a fool for believing that nonsense. So I'm not a random atheist who has never picked up a bible, I have had some experience with it.

I find apologies to be stupid. Something has already happened, damage has already been dealt. The only need for apologies is to hope the person doesn't sue your ass, kick the crap out of you or do some method of payback. In that sense, there's some purpose to it but you say it without meaning so they feel all happy then you move on. So, I have apologized to people just the words were always meaningless.

And what is this pointless babble of Muslims. You get the hand chopped off for stealing, regardless if you apologize. I have no clue why you brought some random nonsense into the debate.

How has the future not been planned? Somehow, you'd have to fit in with the Divine Plan, with god's intentions. In that sense, it's been planned. Free will is simply an illusion to christians. Prove that god made the air, better yet, prove he exists. You've been struggling at this and haven't done so yet.

As for my honesty, thanks for the compliments but it doesn't mean that atheists are not honest. I have no desire to practice christianity as when I did, it was a complete waste of several years of my life.

What are you babbling about with temptation and your faith? Science and faith find answers in completely different ways. Faith is simply believing rather blindly, whereas science seeks to formulate theories, test them, potentially use experiments, etc... . Science and faith are not the same. For your faith questions, it's just you asking a fellow believer or making your own answers through some idea, and believing it. Science is not like that.

[pizzamon]

So I was watching 30 Days the other day and found it interesting enough that Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all believe in the same GOD. However Jesus has been disputed between the 3 groups, as far as him being the son of GOD. So all these people that follow these three religions, what, have they been duped? There seems like there must be truth in at some point for all these people to believe in the same GOD, right. Don't get me wrong I see why many people refuse to believe in GOD. It's hard to believe right, well that's just it. GOD is too great for us to wrap our minds around what he has done. Feel free to respond. I know someone will, that's what I love about this forum.

[Camazotz]

God is spirit and does not have any DNA or physical form. Wihtout usting the Holy BIble, there are facts the exist today which prove God exist. Take for example the bodies of very holy people that are still intact after hundreds of years:
http://www.overcomeproblems.com/incorruptables.htm

While interesting, this does not prove God exists.

The apparition of Mary (Mother of Jesus) to the three little children in Portugal in 1917 (which I have posted earlier that atheist never reputed to be untrue). There are miracles that are scientifically documented that is continually happening to present day in Fatima, Porgutal. Millions of people flock there to pray.

Hallucination? Imagination? (they were little children) Any of these could be true. Unfortunately, seeing an "apparition" does not prove there is a God.

These are clear and visible signs of God's presence in our world. God is present because Theism has played major role in peoples lives that created world history. Take example Ferdinand Magellan who circumnavigated the world to promulgate Christianity. Another example is the 21 missions in California.

No, these are not "clear and visible sings of God's presence in the world." Yes, theism has played an important role in history. However, this does not prove there is a God. This only proves that people who believed in God helped shaped history, which could be a good thing or could be a bad thing.

I have posted the exorcism of Emily Rose which is fully documented to be true and accurate. Even the demons believe there is a God.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exorcism_of_Emily_Rose

What you meant to say is, "The Exorcism of Emily Rose is claimed to be true." While the events did happen, we have no evidence to truly say if she was possessed or just had a mental illness. In my opinion, she had a mental illness. Her death was caused by malnutrition and dehydration, which was caused by the exorcism. Her beliefs killed her. Oops!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anneliese_Michel

These are SOME evidence for the existance of God.

No, none of what you said is indisputable evidence proving the existence of God. I must conclude, until evidence is present, that God does not exist.


DOES AN ATHEIST HAVE ANY (and i mean any) EVIDENCE THAT GOD DOES NOT EXIST? N O T H I N G.

A few things...
1. Typing in all caps is a poor way to prove your point. It shows weakness.
2. No, atheists do not have any proof disproving the theory of God.
3. Christians do not have any proof proving the existence of God.
4. The conclusion I have drawn from this debate is simple. We do not have any evidence proving God, and we do not have any evidence disproving God.

It would be illogical and irrational to say God exists without evidence. However, it would also be illogical and irrational to say God cannot exist. Therefore, I conclude God does not exist (However, it is possible He does). That is why I am atheist. Until indisputable evidence proving God exists, I will remain atheist.

[Mzor203]

So I was watching 30 Days the other day and found it interesting enough that Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all believe in the same GOD. However Jesus has been disputed between the 3 groups, as far as him being the son of GOD. So all these people that follow these three religions, what, have they been duped? There seems like there must be truth in at some point for all these people to believe in the same GOD, right. Don't get me wrong I see why many people refuse to believe in GOD. It's hard to believe right, well that's just it. GOD is too great for us to wrap our minds around what he has done. Feel free to respond. I know someone will, that's what I love about this forum.

The Romans and Greeks both believed in the same God, so it seems like there must be truth in at some point for all these people to believe in the same Gods.

That doesn't make any sense either, so you can't use that argument to prove the Christian God exists without also proving that the Greek Gods exist. Therefore your argument is null and void.

[pizzamon]

It's not so much about the proof it's about faith. The evidence in things unseen and the substance of things hoped for.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

It's not so much about the proof it's about faith. The evidence in things unseen and the substance of things hoped for.

Faith is worthless, and possibly harmful. Blindly believing in something without any real proof or evidence leads to making decisions based on the weakest possible foundations.

[Oblivion]

It's not so much about the proof it's about faith. The evidence in things unseen and the substance of things hoped for.

What's the point in faith?
I believe in the invisible pink unicorn now. It made the world.
Does that mean it's true? No.
Is it just as probable as god doing the same? Yes.

[INFERNO]

So I was watching 30 Days the other day and found it interesting enough that Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all believe in the same GOD. However Jesus has been disputed between the 3 groups, as far as him being the son of GOD. So all these people that follow these three religions, what, have they been duped? There seems like there must be truth in at some point for all these people to believe in the same GOD, right. Don't get me wrong I see why many people refuse to believe in GOD. It's hard to believe right, well that's just it. GOD is too great for us to wrap our minds around what he has done. Feel free to respond. I know someone will, that's what I love about this forum.

So, you're trying to prove they all exist because that would make sense if they all believe in the same underlying principles? Well, for one, that doesn't prove that god exists. It proves, yet again, people listen to authority and go with the majority. So god is too great for us to wrap our minds around, which is why we cant believe in him? Is this what you're saying?

It's not so much about the proof it's about faith. The evidence in things unseen and the substance of things hoped for.

True, the beliefs are about faith. However, blindly believing doesn't make it right (or wrong). I can write a book about how trees are god's servants, they used to run around wild but now settle in the ground and watch us, and god is the sun. I can claim I have faith in it, so it's true or right to me but is it right to others? Doesn't have to be.

Evidence in things unseen? So basically, you're making up ideas now or conceptualizing evidence, hence, it's not evidence, it's just made-up ideas with no proof. Pretty invalid to others.

Substance of things hoped for? So, basically wishes that people make. I don't see the point in this either as yet again, it's not evidence.

Essentially, faith is just believing in things having no proof and things you make up. Is this what the religions (i.e. christianity) is? Pretty much. Some guys wrote a book a bit over 2000 years ago. At that time, people generally weren't too bright so they believed the babble in it. Where's the evidence? None, it's imagination, all in the writer's heads.

These beliefs (Judiasm, Islam, Christianity) believing in similar principles or god means nothing. Some guy(s) made a story to control people by writing about some vague big spooky guy in the sky who would bring you to paradise if you obeyed or a miserable, ever-lasting torture if you didn't. And of course, people believed it. It proves 3 things: First, the authors had some common sense, second, the believers at that times weren't all that bright so they accept it much as modern-day believers do (although they usually have more intelligence) and third, people listen to authority.

[pizzamon]

Well no one will know anything for sure until they die. Until then all you can do is have hope.

[Antares]

Okay, this is getting absolutely ridiculous.
First, you all need to get on topic of the actual debate. Not some random stuff about fetuses or other irrelevant crap. Take all that other stuff to other threads or off the site.
Secondly, do not insult eachother. A good few of you are doing that and I want you all to consider this your official warning.
Anymore and you will be infracted.

So back to the DEBATE. Not other random crapoda.

Thank you

[Prince_of_Peace]

The “little things” that pisses Deschain off makes him tell me to “Fuck off”? Why should I be surprise with this kind of language…You are probably rejoicing with what’s going with the world today.

Just look, politicians and the public spent yesterday demanding that AIG rescind payouts that they said rewarded recklessness and greed at a company being bailed out with $170 billion in taxpayer funds.

You make a great AIG chairman…you love a lot of power, fame and greed.

Let me tell you about the exact definition of “the burden of evidence.”

You know, the United States of America was founded by the forefathers who believed in the Judeo-Christian God. Atheist comes and demands to out take “…in God we trust” out of our money. Atheist like you has petitioned the government to stop praying in class rooms. You know, Americans are tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since 911, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Americans. This culture has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who love God and sought freedom. We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if people wish to become part of our society, learn the language! Most Americans believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of America’s culture. This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow everyone the opportunity to enjoy. But once atheist like you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great American freedom 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'.

Look what happened to this atheist who tried to stop using God in the inauguration. The judge tossed him out!

http://www.cnsnews.com/Public/Content/Article.aspx?rsrcid=42022

We don’t want atheistic views here in America. People like you do not believe in God, so therefore, HEAVEN nor HELL exist for atheists. CHRISTIANS believe that here is a heaven and CHRISTIANS believe there is a hell.

In Conclusion, since hell is defined by CHRISTIANS as the TOTAL SEPERATION FROM GOD, there is no need for bunch of atheists to leave America.

YOU ARE ALREADY THERE!

[Oblivion]

We don’t want atheistic views here in America. People like you do not believe in God, so therefore, HEAVEN nor HELL exist for atheists. CHRISTIANS believe that here is a heaven and CHRISTIANS believe there is a hell.

How can you think you are one to speak for all of America? Do you sincerely believe all Atheists should leave America?
The United States was founded on the belief that anyone can practice their own religion, or none at all.
It's not a Christian country now, nor will it ever be.


I will add however that Deschain lives in Canada.

[Sage]

The “little things” that pisses Deschain off makes him tell me to “Fuck off”? Why should I be surprise with this kind of language…

Firstly, I never said that. Second, I believe it is you who types in an enraged manner, with caps lock turned on, telling atheists (and these are your own words) to "show some balls". Grow up.

You are probably rejoicing with what’s going with the world today.

So you think that by being an atheist, I rejoice when I hear about genocide, disease, war, and famine? Don't be absurd. If anyone is doing that, it's radical theists. "Signs of the end times" and "Holy wars" and that steaming load.

You make a great AIG chairman…you love a lot of power, fame and greed.

Don't be a dick. You're making assumptions about me despite the fact that you don't even know me at all. I have little desire for power, I would hate to be famous, and I am far from greedy.

Let me tell you about the exact definition of “the burden of evidence.”

You know, the United States of America was founded by the forefathers who believed in the Judeo-Christian God. Atheist comes and demands to out take “…in God we trust” out of our money.

This has nothing to do with the burden of evidence what so ever. It's not hard to define. You don't need a fucking history lesson to explain what "burden of evidence" is.

Second, "in God we trust" was not added until 1864. (http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.shtml)

Atheist like you has petitioned the government to stop praying in class rooms.

Because America is a secular nation, and people's tax dollars go to pay for schools. Seperation of Church and State- Schools are run by the State, so they cannot endorse the Church.

You know, Americans are tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture.

On the contrary, Americans seem to be more anal about political correctness than ever.

Since 911, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Americans. This culture has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who love God and sought freedom.

People who love God and do great things don't necesarily do those things because they love God. Being a religious scientist does not mean you are discovering cures because you feel compelled to do so by your religion.

We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if people wish to become part of our society, learn the language!

This has nothing to do with the debate.

Most Americans believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented.

Yes, but they also founded it with freedom of religion in mind, and this includes freedom from religion. Do atheists offend you? Do buddhists offend you? Do cultists, muslims, wiccans offend you?

It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of America’s culture. This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow everyone the opportunity to enjoy. But once atheist like you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great American freedom 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'.

1) I live in Canada. This doesn't really mean anything to me.

2) You're basically saying that Christians should have the right to impose their beliefs on everybody in this country, and that if people disagree, they should leave.

Look what happened to this atheist who tried to stop using God in the inauguration. The judge tossed him out!

http://www.cnsnews.com/Public/Content/Article.aspx?rsrcid=42022

Irrelevent. A judge does not speak for the vast majority of Americans.

We don’t want atheistic views here in America. People like you do not believe in God, so therefore, HEAVEN nor HELL exist for atheists. CHRISTIANS believe that here is a heaven and CHRISTIANS believe there is a hell.

In Conclusion, since hell is defined by CHRISTIANS as the TOTAL SEPERATION FROM GOD, there is no need for bunch of atheists to leave America.

YOU ARE ALREADY THERE!

Caps lock amuses me. It's almost cute when you use it. But again, I'll repeat myself, because you do not seem to be paying very much attention to what I have to say.

1) You did not answer my earlier question. Do you understand what "Burden of Evidence" means? If so, explain it.

2) Again, you are using an Ad Populum logical fallacy here.

Ad Populum: Believing that the views held by the majority of people are the correct ones.

Just because most people believe in God, does not mean God exists. Just because most people believe in Heaven and Hell does not mean it exists.

In your next post, please simply answer the question. Every time I pose a question to you, you avoid it. It's growing tiresome.

[Prince_of_Peace]

The burden on a party seeking to support a claim or defense at trial to produce sufficient evidence at trial to have the issue merit consideration by the fact-finder. Also called burden of going forward (with evidence), burden of introducing evidence, burden of proceeding, burden of producing evidence, burden of production, duty of producing evidence.

There is no burden of evidence to prove that God Exist. No has reputed my post that was on the 3rd page...so I am reposting it below.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay..so what's a little daring here but to give the Atheist some chance to explain. The truth is these atheists CAN NOT prove that God does not exist. Therefore, they can not prove your disbelief.

My turn to a wonderful essay why I believe in God. You can search the archives and most importantly the atheist news paper called "Illustracao Portugueza." The even it called the "MIRACLE OF THE SUN."


The Miracle of the Sun is a miraculous event witnessed by as many as 100,000 people on 13 October 1917 in the Cova da Iria fields near Fátima, Portugal. Those in attendance had assembled to observe what the Portuguese secular newspapers had been ridiculing for months as the absurd claim of three shepherd children that a miracle was going to occur at high-noon in the Cova da Iria on October 13, 1917.

According to many witness statements, after a downfall of rain, the dark clouds broke and the sun appeared as an opaque, spinning disk in the sky. It was said to be significantly less bright than normal, and cast multicolored lights across the landscape, the shadows on the landscape, the people, and the surrounding clouds. The sun was then reported to have careened towards the earth in a zigzag pattern, frightening some of those present who thought it meant the end of the world. Some witnesses reported that their previously wet clothes became "suddenly and completely dry."

Estimates of the number of witnesses range from 30,000-40,000 by Avelino de Almeida, writing for the Portuguese newspaper O Século, to 100,000, estimated by Dr. Joseph Garrett, professor of natural sciences at the University of Coimbra, both of whom were present that day.

The miracle was attributed by believers to Our Lady of Fátima, an apparition of the Blessed Virgin Mary to three young shepherd children in 1917, as having been predicted by the three children on 13 July, 19 August, and 13 September 1917. The children reported that the Lady had promised them that she would on 13 October reveal her identity to them and provide a miracle "so that all may believe."

According to these reports, the miracle of the sun lasted approximately ten minutes.The three children also reported seeing a panorama of visions, including those of Jesus, the Blessed Virgin Mary, and of Saint Joseph blessing the people.

THE FIRST SECRET
The first secret was a vision of Hell, which Lúcia describes in her Third Memoir, as follows:

"Our Lady showed us a great sea of fire which seemed to be under the earth. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in a huge fire, without weight or equilibrium, and amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repulsive likeness to frightful and unknown animals, all black and transparent. This vision lasted but an instant. How can we ever be grateful enough to our kind heavenly Mother, who had already prepared us by promising, in the first Apparition, to take us to heaven. Otherwise, I think we would have died of fear and terror."

The SECOND SECRET included Mary's instructions on how to save souls from Hell and convert the world to the Catholic faith, written in 1917:

"You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war is going to end: but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the Pontificate of Pius XI. When you see a night illuminated by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father. To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of reparation on the First Saturdays. If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated. In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she shall be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world."

According to Sister Lúcia, The Virgin promised that the Consecration of Russia would lead to Russia's conversion and an era of peace.[1]

Pope Pius XII, in his Apostolic Letter of July 7, 1952 Sacro Vergente consecrated Russia to the Most Blessed Virgin Mary. Pius XII wrote,

Just as a few years ago We consecrated the entire human race to the Immaculate Heart of the Virgin Mary, Mother of God, so today We consecrate and in a most special manner We entrust all the peoples of Russia to this Immaculate Heart…[13]
In 1952 the Pope reminded the Russian people, that the Virgin Mary was always victorious. "The gates of hell will never prevail, where she offers her protection. She is the good mother, the mother of all, and it has never been heard, that those who seek her protection, will not receive it. With this certainty, the Pope dedicates all people of Russia to the immaculate heart of the Virgin. She will help! Error and atheism will be overcome with her assistance and divine grace".

Pope Pius XII and Pope John Paul II both had special relations to our Lady of Fátima. Pope Benedict XV began Pacelli's Church career, elevating him to archbishop in the Sistine Chapel on May 13, 1917, the very day, Our Lady of Fátima is believed to have first appeared to three shepherd children in Fátima. Pius XII, was laid to rest in the crypt of Saint Peter's Basilica on November 13, 1958, on the Feast of our Lady of Fátima. The Lady of Fátima is credited by many faithful and, as mentioned below, by the Pontiff himself, with saving the life of John Paul II during the assassination attempt in 1981 on Fátima day.

Pope John Paul II again consecrated the entire world to the Virgin in 1984, without mentioning countries like Russia. Some believe that Sister Lúcia verified that this ceremony fulfilled the requests of the Virgin. However, in the Blue Army's Spanish magazine, Sol de Fatima, in the September 1985 issue, Sister Lúcia said that the ceremony did not fulfill the Virgin's request, as there was no specific mention of Russia, and "many bishops attached no importance to it". In 2001, Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone issued a statement, claiming that he had met with Sister Lúcia, who reportedly told him, "I have already said that the consecration desired by Our Lady was made in 1984, and has been accepted in Heaven." Sister Lúcia died on February 13 (same day as the apparitions), 2005, without making any public statement of her own to settle the issue.

A 2008 Conference in the former Soviet Union focused on a future accompanied by Mary. Orthodox Russians gathered in Minsk with Catholics of Belarus to celebrate the 150th anniversary of Mary's apparitions in Lourdes and to consider her role in their personal and national history. It was recalled that Our Lady told Bernadette Soubirous that she was the Immaculate Conception. [15] To some faithful, this may be an indication that the prayers to the Lady of Fatima about Russia are effective.

The THIRD SECRET
The third secret, a vision of the death of the Pope and other religious figures, was transcribed by the Bishop of Leiria and reads:

"After the two parts which I have already explained, at the left of Our Lady and a little above, we saw an Angel with a flaming sword in his left hand; flashing, it gave out flames that looked as though they would set the world on fire; but they died out in contact with the splendour that Our Lady radiated towards him from her right hand: pointing to the earth with his right hand, the Angel cried out in a loud voice: ‘Penance, Penance, Penance!' And we saw in an immense light that is God: ‘something similar to how people appear in a mirror when they pass in front of it' a Bishop dressed in White ‘we had the impression that it was the Holy Father'. Other Bishops, Priests, Religious men and women going up a steep mountain, at the top of which there was a big Cross of rough-hewn trunks as of a cork-tree with the bark; before reaching there the Holy Father passed through a big city half in ruins and half trembling with halting step, afflicted with pain and sorrow, he prayed for the souls of the corpses he met on his way; having reached the top of the mountain, on his knees at the foot of the big Cross he was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, Religious men and women, and various lay people of different ranks and positions. Beneath the two arms of the Cross there were two Angels each with a crystal aspersorium in his hand, in which they gathered up the blood of the Martyrs and with it sprinkled the souls that were making their way to God."

Nobody can not claim that the events happened did not occur. It was written in the history books and even the atheist newspaper. The miracle of the sun was witnessed by atheist themselves.

[Sage]

There is no burden of evidence to prove that God Exist. No has reputed my post that was on the 3rd page...so I am reposting it below.

This is where you have failed to understand why I even brought up Burden of Evidence.

Let's say I pick up a pencil and drop it a couple times. I do some measurements and find it falls at the same speed every time I drop it. I conclude this happens because of some natural process (gravity) and not because of a supernatural puppeteer. I can easily say the pencil falls at such and such speed because the Invisible Pink Unicorn deems it so, or because Gravitor, supreme God of Gravity, is taking a shower.

These are both illogical standpoints. You cannot assume things have a supernatural (ie. Your God) explanation to them without first taking a look at natural reasons.

The Burden of Evidence falls squarely on you because you are proving a supernatural occurence, where as I am proving a natural one.

[Prince_of_Peace]

...why no comment in the Miracle of the Sun? It is non-biblical historical event that is a supernatural.

[Sage]

Because not only have you already posted that in this thread on an earlier page, but the event itself happened in 1917 (a much more religious time) in Portugal (a very religous country). Testimony is not evidence. It is highly likely that what people saw was a delusion, or the story was warped in some way.

...why no comment on my point on how the Burden of Evidence falls on you?

[Prince_of_Peace]

I will asnwer that...dont worry. Let me ask you this question:
For someone who does not believe that the hell and heaven exist, you have posted in a tread "Re: Afraid of the dark"

Here is what you said "I never thought about aliens, they don't scare me. It's ghosts and demons that scare me."

Don't deny the fact and try to rationalize around what you have posted. It is clear and true you are scared of ghosts and demons.

Let me tell you Deschain and let me tell you this from experience. I have seen people posesses by a demon and I ran out of the place. The devil is real...and he is a very cruel father of lies. I have not heard ghost but have heard of one. Honestly I am telling you this...my brother died from a tragic death and he spoke to me in the clear day light. It was not only me who heard him.

You have absolutely defined yourself as an atheist for everything else is a non-sence unless proven otherwise throught science. It is not man who is search of God. It is really God who is search for man. I will pray to God that he sends you an event in your life that will open your eyes. YOu may laugh now, but before Spring for the proof you are asking for.

Trust me...I am not the enemy here.

[Sage]

I will asnwer that...dont worry.

Why couldn't you answer it in this post?

Let me ask you this question:
For someone who does not believe that the hell and heaven exist, you have posted in a tread "Re: Afraid of the dark"

Here is what you said "I never thought about aliens, they don't scare me. It's ghosts and demons that scare me."

Don't deny the fact and try to rationalize around what you have posted. It is clear and true you are scared of ghosts and demons.

That does not mean I believe in the demons of the bible. Almost all religions worldwide have some sort of demons in their mythologies. I am spiritual, but not religious. I feel there is something else out there, but I know for certain it is not your God, nor the God of any organised religion.

Let me tell you Deschain and let me tell you this from experience. I have seen people posesses by a demon and I ran out of the place. The devil is real...and he is a very cruel father of lies. I have not heard ghost but have heard of one. Honestly I am telling you this...my brother died from a tragic death and he spoke to me in the clear day light. It was not only me who heard him.

You have absolutely defined yourself as an atheist for everything else is a non-sence unless proven otherwise throught science. It is not man who is search of God. It is really God who is search for man. I will pray to God that he sends you an event in your life that will open your eyes. YOu may laugh now, but before Spring for the proof you are asking for.

Trust me...I am not the enemy here.

You saying you'll pray for me is a like a slap to the face. Not only is that patronizing, but I feel it is condescending as well. Yes, I believe in some supernatural things, because they have not been thoroughly disproven. No, I do not believe in your religion, because it has thoroughly been disproven.

In your next post, do make sure to comment on the burden of evidence as well. It is not me who is in a position to prove anything- It's you.

[The Resurrected One]

Maybe if you go to some crazy Christian forum everyone will agree with you.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

Don't deny the fact and try to rationalize around what you have posted. It is clear and true you are scared of ghosts and demons.

.

Well, I can speak to this better than Deschain, since I'm not even spiritual. Ghosts and demons are just as silly as unicorns, leprechauns, and GOD. This superstitious fear of demons and satan is quite harmful; you don't have to look very far at all into history to see the countless people with problems like epilepsy, seizures, etc. that are STILL being falsely called "demon possession" and leading to pointless death.

This religious fervor has got you scared for absolutely no reason. Demons and satan don't scare me... its the people that actually think they are real that scare me. Because that fear might enforce their actions.

[INFERNO]

Just look, politicians and the public spent yesterday demanding that AIG rescind payouts that they said rewarded recklessness and greed at a company being bailed out with $170 billion in taxpayer funds.

You make a great AIG chairman…you love a lot of power, fame and greed.

What does this have to do with the debate? Nothing, more random babble.


You know, the United States of America was founded by the forefathers who believed in the Judeo-Christian God. Atheist comes and demands to out take “…in God we trust” out of our money. Atheist like you has petitioned the government to stop praying in class rooms. You know, Americans are tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since 911, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Americans. This culture has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who love God and sought freedom. We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if people wish to become part of our society, learn the language! Most Americans believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of America’s culture.


This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow everyone the opportunity to enjoy. But once atheist like you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great American freedom 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'.

We don’t want atheistic views here in America. People like you do not believe in God, so therefore, HEAVEN nor HELL exist for atheists. CHRISTIANS believe that here is a heaven and CHRISTIANS believe there is a hell.

there is no need for bunch of atheists to leave America.



Heh, that's a bit of a contradiction. So, what is it? Leave or don't leave? Before you make up your mind, READ what I wrote below:

Right, so because we don't believe, we should leave? Let me ask you this. Suppose someone believed in, say, scientology. You disagreed with them, so in a sense, guess what, you are an atheist in the sense that you deny their god. Before you get all worked up, there are various types of atheists, some that disbelieve in 1 belief or divine being and others that disbelieve in all divine beings. You, my friend, are the one that disbelieves in other divine beings. If you deny that, you've contradicted your belief. So, because you don't want atheists in America, unfortunately, that would include you also, as well as all the christians, catholics, etc.. . So, if you wish to keep up the idea that atheists should leave, better get your bags packed because that includes you.

And what is your point about atheists not believing in heaven and hell, whereas christians do? Is there some point to that because it seems like you're, for the most part, stating the obvious.




Look what happened to this atheist who tried to stop using God in the inauguration. The judge tossed him out!

http://www.cnsnews.com/Public/Content/Article.aspx?rsrcid=42022

1 person doesn't represent a nation, this includes you and the judge.


The burden on a party seeking to support a claim or defense at trial to produce sufficient evidence at trial to have the issue merit consideration by the fact-finder. Also called burden of going forward (with evidence), burden of introducing evidence, burden of proceeding, burden of producing evidence, burden of production, duty of producing evidence.

You copied that definition from: http://www.yourdictionary.com/law/burden-of-evidence

Nice try to make it seem like you wrote that.


The truth is these atheists CAN NOT prove that God does not exist. Therefore, they can not prove your disbelief.

How many times must I say this? You cannot prove that God exists, therefore, you cannot prove your belief.


The Miracle of the Sun is a miraculous event witnessed by as many as 100,000 people on 13 October 1917 in the Cova da Iria fields near Fátima, Portugal. Those in attendance had assembled to observe what the Portuguese secular newspapers had been ridiculing for months as the absurd claim of three shepherd children that a miracle was going to occur at high-noon in the Cova da Iria on October 13, 1917.


According to many witness statements, after a downfall of rain, the dark clouds broke and the sun appeared as an opaque, spinning disk in the sky. It was said to be significantly less bright than normal, and cast multicolored lights across the landscape, the shadows on the landscape, the people, and the surrounding clouds. The sun was then reported to have careened towards the earth in a zigzag pattern, frightening some of those present who thought it meant the end of the world. Some witnesses reported that their previously wet clothes became "suddenly and completely dry."

Right, so a rainbow appeared and instantly, with a snap of the fingers, the clothes were dried? If it sounds like it's bullshit, it probably is bullshit.

Estimates of the number of witnesses range from 30,000-40,000 by Avelino de Almeida, writing for the Portuguese newspaper O Século, to 100,000, estimated by Dr. Joseph Garrett, professor of natural sciences at the University of Coimbra, both of whom were present that day.

So? Doesn't mean that the intelligent ones were the ones that reported the sights. They may have been present but did they say that the clothes magically dried? No, some anonymous witnesses said it. For all you know, it could have been some person high on something that reported it, or the clothes were already dry, the rainbow appeared, then they touched the clothes and they were dry. It doesn't prove your cause, but rather it proves you cannot trust random witness reports from anonymous people will, what I will assume, very little intelligence.


The miracle was attributed by believers to Our Lady of Fátima, an apparition of the Blessed Virgin Mary to three young shepherd children in 1917, as having been predicted by the three children on 13 July, 19 August, and 13 September 1917. The children reported that the Lady had promised them that she would on 13 October reveal her identity to them and provide a miracle "so that all may believe."

Right, so those who believed in some belief said that the Lady of Fatima did it. Huh, sounds a bit familiar to the phrase of "God did it!". How unexpected, people believe blindly in something, a random phenomenon occurs (a rainbow), which they have little to no knowledge of so they attribute it to their belief. If you have 10 other believers or 10 other beliefs, I'm sure that same thing would have happened. This proves people will go blindly by their belief, and possibly, obey the authority.


According to these reports, the miracle of the sun lasted approximately ten minutes.The three children also reported seeing a panorama of visions, including those of Jesus, the Blessed Virgin Mary, and of Saint Joseph blessing the people.

... Right, they saw 3 imaginary figures? So, let's see, with the sun beaming in your eyes, with a rainbow (or at that time colours zigzagging everywhere), people all scared, adrenaline pumping, a large crowd, 3 kids say they saw 3 visions? Unless they were on drugs, had a mental disorder or a physiological disorder (or some combination), I claim bullshit. How can you know that it wasn't simply the situation and reasoning I described above? You cannot. If you believe in christianity, you're probably going to call me a liar, full of shit, and believe they saw the visions. If you're an atheist, you probably will go with what I said. Then again, if you believe in something else, you may attribute it to that. Far too many combinations, as of yet, you haven't proven your claim.


THE FIRST SECRET
The first secret was a vision of Hell, which Lúcia describes in her Third Memoir, as follows:

"Our Lady showed us a great sea of fire which seemed to be under the earth. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in a huge fire, without weight or equilibrium, and amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repulsive likeness to frightful and unknown animals, all black and transparent. This vision lasted but an instant. How can we ever be grateful enough to our kind heavenly Mother, who had already prepared us by promising, in the first Apparition, to take us to heaven. Otherwise, I think we would have died of fear and terror."

Once again, consider the situation. People thought the world was ending, they may have been christians (believed in hell and heaven), random colours flying everywhere, adrenaline and other biochemicals pumping, heart racing, people running all over the place, the water reflects the various colours, and lo' and behold, you can see red "flames", people running, imaginaiton going wild... . This doesn't prove your claim.


The SECOND SECRET included Mary's instructions on how to save souls from Hell and convert the world to the Catholic faith, written in 1917:

"You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war is going to end: but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the Pontificate of Pius XI. When you see a night illuminated by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father. To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of reparation on the First Saturdays. If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated. In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she shall be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world."

So, essentially, it's a 50/50 chance; she's right, the issue is over, if she's wrong, the wars will break out and the church will be persecuted. Well, seeing as how this has a slight bias to not persecuting their believers, I'm not surprised about her being right, peace occuring, etc... . Besides, if this was written during the conflicts, one could simply think and see if it's likely for the conflict to be over. Nothing amazing.


In 1952 the Pope reminded the Russian people, that the Virgin Mary was always victorious. "The gates of hell will never prevail, where she offers her protection. She is the good mother, the mother of all, and it has never been heard, that those who seek her protection, will not receive it. With this certainty, the Pope dedicates all people of Russia to the immaculate heart of the Virgin. She will help! Error and atheism will be overcome with her assistance and divine grace".

How unexpected for the pope to start preaching.


Pope Pius XII and Pope John Paul II both had special relations to our Lady of Fátima. Pope Benedict XV began Pacelli's Church career, elevating him to archbishop in the Sistine Chapel on May 13, 1917, the very day, Our Lady of Fátima is believed to have first appeared to three shepherd children in Fátima. Pius XII, was laid to rest in the crypt of Saint Peter's Basilica on November 13, 1958, on the Feast of our Lady of Fátima. The Lady of Fátima is credited by many faithful and, as mentioned below, by the Pontiff himself, with saving the life of John Paul II during the assassination attempt in 1981 on Fátima day.

Ah yes, they believe in the Lady of Fatima, so when something good happens, she caused it. This doesn't prove your claim, it gives an example of what currently happens: your pray or wish, something good happens, then yay god did it!

The miracle of the sun was witnessed by atheist themselves.

The miracle of the sun? ... A rainbow, people panicking, blah blah, I've said that reason too many times in this post. So? What does it matter if it was written in an atheistic newspaper or seen by atheists?

No where in here have you proven your claim.

[Prince_of_Peace]

How can atheist like you deny the fact that miracle of the sun that happened in July 13, 1917? Here the proof the miracle of the sun happened.


http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/202573/Fatima

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1917 (scroll down to July 13)

http://www.brainyhistory.com/days/july_13.html

http://www.theday2day.com/july/13/


Atheists can not argue with logical fallacy thinking that "God can’t be proven to exist, therefore He doesn’t exist unless proven otherwise" since it can be countered by another logical fallacy "God can’t be proven not to exist, therefore He does exist."

The fact that I have proven that the miracle of the sun happened in July 13, 1917 is undeniably a fact since it has documented in the history. The three children: Jacinta, Lucia and Jacinto were shown what hell looks like by Mary. They were asked to pray this prayer:

"My God, I believe in You, I adore You, I hope in You and I love You. I ask pardon for those who do not believe in You, do not adore You, do not hope in You, and do not love you."

They were asked to pray and do penance for people who do not believe in God. They were even asked to include this prayer in their rosaries, "O Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell and lead all souls to heaven especially those who have the most need of your mercy."

I would appreciate it if you can find in history that the miracle of the sun did not exist. It is not taken from the bible of from a church website but from historical file. I have given you credible resources to prove that HELL and HEAVEN exist. God bless us all.

[Sage]

Atheists can not argue with logical fallacy thinking that "God can’t be proven to exist, therefore He doesn’t exist unless proven otherwise" since it can be countered by another logical fallacy "God can’t be proven not to exist, therefore He does exist."

Burden of evidence.

Burden of evidence.

Burden of evidence.

BURDEN OF EVIDENCE.

If you cannot wrap your mind around this simple fucking concept, there is no point in continuing to debate with you.

[Prince_of_Peace]

God can not be proven not to exist, therefore He does exist - back to you with your burden of evidence.

[Sage]

God can not be proven not to exist, therefore He does exist - back to you with your burden of evidence.

Did you not read even one word on my explanation of burden of evidence? You are defending a supernatural claim, I am defending a non-supernatural claim.

Amazing claims require amazing amounts of evidence. Claims your religion makes are amazing, which is why the burden of evidence falls on you to explain them, and not somebody else to disprove them.

Think of it this way. I say there is a tiny chinese tea cup orbiting the planet Saturn. Is it up to me to prove that, or is it up to somebody else to disprove that? Should we live our lives assuming that there is a tiny teacup orbitting Saturn until it is proven otherwise? No, such is illogical.

You are the one making grand claims. Therefore, it is up to you to bring forth grand amounts of evidence.

Get it through your head. I refuse to explain this one more time only to have you not pay any attention whatsoever.

[Prince_of_Peace]

I'll prove to you tonight that HELL exist.

When you to to bed, dont leave any light on...and don't close your eyes.

[Sage]

I'll prove to you tonight that HELL exist.

When you to to bed, dont leave any light on...and don't close your eyes.

I don't leave lights on and I hardly get any rest at nights anyway, Prince. My room is my room. It's dark when I turn the lights off. It's quiet at night. Nothing happens.

If you're refering to people who see things in their rooms at nights, this is known as Sleep Paralysis. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis) Your body naturally goes into paralysis when you sleep so that you don't completely roll off your bed or act out your dreams at night.

People who claim to see visions of Hell or that they have been abducted by aliens and other such nonsense are simply experiencing dreams while under sleep paralysis with their eyes open.

I don't even know what your post is trying to prove. Is that a threat of some sort? Because I must add, it comes across as a rather under-handed debate method.

What, exactly, are you hoping I will find when I go to sleep tonight? And don't you dare tell me to "Wait and see," this would only show you are very poor at debating and dodge the simplest of questions.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

I'll prove to you tonight that HELL exist.

When you to to bed, dont leave any light on...and don't close your eyes.

I laughed so hard when I read that. You actually think we're afraid of the dark?! How superstitious can you get! Hell, I'd spend the night in ANY "haunted" house or graveyard, your boogeymen aren't real, and don't scare me :lol:

[INFERNO]

How can atheist like you deny the fact that miracle of the sun that happened in July 13, 1917? Here the proof the miracle of the sun happened.

I'm not saying that the rainbows and stuff on that day didn't happen but rather that it was no "miracle".


http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/202573/Fatima

This shows what you've already said, nothing of any more use.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1917 (scroll down to July 13)

this one doesn't even mention the sun miracle AND there's no entry for july 13. Quit making up information.


http://www.brainyhistory.com/days/july_13.html

This too doesn't have the sun miracle, once again, don't post false information.


http://www.theday2day.com/july/13/

And this too, doesn't show the sun miracle.



Atheists can not argue with logical fallacy thinking that "God can’t be proven to exist, therefore He doesn’t exist unless proven otherwise" since it can be countered by another logical fallacy "God can’t be proven not to exist, therefore He does exist."

No, that doesn't prove he exists. It proves there is no knowledge of his existance. Watch, this is what you did:

"You cant prove he exists therefore he doesn't"
"He cant be proven not to exist, therefore he exists"
BUT.. this can go in a circle...
"You cant prove he exists therefore he doesn't"
"He cant be proven not to exist, therefore he exists"

It doesn't show he exists nor that he doesn't exist. It's inconclusive.




The fact that I have proven that the miracle of the sun happened in July 13, 1917 is undeniably a fact since it has documented in the history. The three children: Jacinta, Lucia and Jacinto were shown what hell looks like by Mary. They were asked to pray this prayer:

"My God, I believe in You, I adore You, I hope in You and I love You. I ask pardon for those who do not believe in You, do not adore You, do not hope in You, and do not love you."

Once again, re-read what I said about the environment during that time now adding in the fact they believed and prayed about god, and something odd happened, it must be due to god, right?? Wrong.





I would appreciate it if you can find in history that the miracle of the sun did not exist. It is not taken from the bible of from a church website but from historical file. I have given you credible resources to prove that HELL and HEAVEN exist. God bless us all.

Apparently you cant understand what I wrote so I'll make it clearer: I'm not saying the events on those days didn't happen. I'm saying interpreting it as an act of god after the kids were praying and believed, and during a time of chaos, confusion, etc..., is nothing amazing.



I'll prove to you tonight that HELL exist.

When you to to bed, dont leave any light on...and don't close your eyes.

LMAO... oh, from being ignorant to not understanding much of what we've posted to this... LOL, you must really be desperate, aren't you?

[Mzor203]

Okay, Prince of Peace, since you've completely ignored me thus far (out of lack of ability to debate me?), I want you to answer me this one simple question:

I am an agnostic (shut up, Tim). Do you think I am going to hell?

[Elemental505]

Okay hell and heaven does exsit prince is right

[Sage]

Okay hell and heaven does exsit prince is right

This post seriously adds nothing to the debate. Stand up for your beliefs and back them up with evidence. Coming along and saying nothing more than 'I agree with so and so' is a waste of time.

[Zephyr]

This is getting ridiculous.

~Locked~