Why Atheists Find Religion Immoral

[ThatCanadianGuy]

I found these videos; they're VERY interesting. This video pretty much shows my position on religion... and WHY I'm so "bashing" of it. I hope this sheds some light onto why some atheists (me) are anti-theist. That is; not only do I NOT believe in god, I think religion itself is BAD as a whole. Here it is... I hope it reveals my position a bit more eloquently than I can type! :D

Christopher Hitchens - Religion Illustrated 1 of 2

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Christopher Hitchens - Religion Illustrated 2 of 2

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Though it may seem offensive to some; everything is TRUE. The point is for people to realize WHY it makes them so uncomfortable (if they are a theist). This discomfort I think comes in largely as a part of people realizing in some way that their beliefs are either unfounded, or immoral. And now's the time to put a stop to it.

Thanks for watching, and tell me what you think.

[theOperaGhost]

Haha...nice...I don't see how those videos would be really offensive. However, I don't like being preached to, which is exactly what that sounded like to me...it sounded like I was at fricken church.

Now, as for your second to last sentence, "And now's the time to put a stop to it." That is basically the biggest preach I've ever read on this site. You'll argue and say you're not preaching, but face it, that's exactly what it is. Christians happen to use that exact same line, and I don't like that either. It's not anyone's place to stop anything (except for maybe preaching...I hate it :P). I have yet to see why anyone cares so much whether a person is religious or not. I say let people believe whatever the hell they want to believe.

EDIT: I've never been scared of my religion either. I've never had any fear of being tormented in hell and not going to heaven. Maybe I'm weird, idk. That seems to be an atheist defense for why religion is bad, it instills fear in people. Hmm...strange...I just must be quite a strange character, eh? :P

[ThatCanadianGuy]

What's wrong with putting a stop to something immoral? And by that I mean the continuation of this belief system through prostletizing to other people, indoctrinating children, etc. that we have DEMONSTRATED to be abusive; now I'm focusing on the children here now because that is where it is ESPECIALLY harmful, although the effects do carry on later into life.

I'm not preaching; you preach when you're trying to get people to believe in the same things you do. I'm trying to get people to THINK about what they believe. To finally judge their reasoning based on MORE than just "their side of things". To see the "other side" of the debate from THEIR perspective. I think it certainly is time to put a stop to those that would try and convert people and children to their beliefs. These beliefs are NEVER their own. They just happen to be "born into it" and from then on have no say in the matter.

"I say let people believe whatever the hell they want to believe."

Well I say we should HELP people understand the true nature of their beliefs, let them think through things critically, and GIVE them a choice for once.

Do YOU what people to believe "whatever the hell" they want if their beliefs include the condemnation of homosexuals, OTHER religions, or ENTIRE RACES of people? If their beliefs mean that KILLING "infidels" in the name of god do you want them to have that particular belief?

You have the freedom of thought, and opinion, AND belief (although as you saw in the videos some religions DON'T allow for freedom of thought) but when these beliefs AFFECT humanity in a negative way as a whole... why do we have to keep our mouths shut and pretend to respect them?

[theOperaGhost]

What's wrong with putting a stop to something immoral? And by that I mean the continuation of this belief system through prostletizing to other people, indoctrinating children, etc. that we have DEMONSTRATED to be abusive; now I'm focusing on the children here now because that is where it is ESPECIALLY harmful, although the effects do carry on later into life.

I'm not preaching; you preach when you're trying to get people to believe in the same things you do. I'm trying to get people to THINK about what they believe. To finally judge their reasoning based on MORE than just "their side of things". To see the "other side" of the debate from THEIR perspective. I think it certainly is time to put a stop to those that would try and convert people and children to their beliefs. These beliefs are NEVER their own. They just happen to be "born into it" and from then on have no say in the matter.

"I say let people believe whatever the hell they want to believe."

Well I say we should HELP people understand the true nature of their beliefs, let them think through things critically, and GIVE them a choice for once.

Do YOU what people to believe "whatever the hell" they want if their beliefs include the condemnation of homosexuals, OTHER religions, or ENTIRE RACES of people? If their beliefs mean that KILLING "infidels" in the name of god do you want them to have that particular belief?

You have the freedom of thought, and opinion, AND belief (although as you saw in the videos some religions DON'T allow for freedom of thought) but when these beliefs AFFECT humanity in a negative way as a whole... why do we have to keep our mouths shut and pretend to respect them?

You say HELP, I say lead, persuade...all about word choice. You are doing the same thing religion does. To tell the truth, atheism isn't a religion, but you and other atheists pretty much make it one. Religion tries to lead people away from what is "wrong," which is exactly what you are doing. People need to learn how to make their own choices, not do what God tells them to. However, religion isn't the root of all discrimination. Whether religion exists or not, people are still going to notice differences in other people. Racism would still exist, sexism, homophobia. Discrimination is not the product of religion, it is the product of human nature and noticing the things that make people different. It's also about comparison. People like to be the best, so they try to find everything bad in other people: discrimination! I truly don't feel that the absence of religion would make the world a better place. Maybe if all humans were wiped out, the world would be better, but religion can't be blamed for all the shit in the world, people can.

[Whisper]

To tell the truth, atheism isn't a religion, but you and other atheists pretty much make it one.

OIY don't bring me into this
I'm nothing like that

[ThatCanadianGuy]

And what's the BEST tool for people to coerce others; to promote things like descrimination and violence and hatred? RELIGION.

You don't make religion any "better" by saying it doesn't cause ALL of the world's problems. When its a MAJOR contributor nonetheless that DOESN'T make it any better.

Religion doesn't try to lead people away from "wrong" things. It tries to lead them to what THEY consider to be right (i.e. sexual descrimination).

Atheism can never be a religion; its NOT a belief; it's a LACKING of belief. A total absense of it. No two atheists are alike, the ONLY thing atheists share in common are their mutual disbelief in gods or supernatural things. God doesn't tell those people that are doing bad things to do what they do. The religious LEADERS are doing it. It's all people, and always has been. If we didn't have the barriers religion has set up over thousands of years there's no telling how far we'd be now; for example the library at Alexandria was destroyed... that put our science BACK 1000 years! We had to RELEARN all of it!

^^ the same thing is happening now to the american school system with intelligent design. I'm sure you don't want the U.S. to LOSE its place as the intellectual super-power. It's already happening... more countries are getting BETTER while america is getting dumber. Something has got to change.

[Cindex]

Atheism can never be a religion; its NOT a belief; it's a LACKING of belief. A total absense of it. No two atheists are alike, the ONLY thing atheists share in common are their mutual disbelief in gods or supernatural things.

Although it sounds as if you're trying to make this an insult, it's true. It's a lack of belief. I don't believe there are supernatural beings (obviously a bunch of dicks anyways) for my own reasons, different from other athiests.

No one can tell me my beliefs, what is right or wrong, or what I'm supposed to do. I have my own. This, in a way, scatters me from others because it is one more way that we are different.

Yes, religion can solve* many problems. But it can also start wars :( Religion can unite or scatter, depending on the circumstances. It can be used as a common belief for uniting, or people arguing and eventually fighting over who is correct.

*Put cause originally, not solve. Meant solve.

[Sapphire]

Lol, I love how you are trying to speak for all atheists. I know for a fact that your arguments against religion are not universal. I never deemed religion to be "immoral" and neither had any of my friends. I have never (apart for you, of course) met someone who actually hates religion and incorrectly thinks that everyone who follows a religion are indoctrinated into it. (Yes, I was an atheist) I think that it is safe to say that you cannot speak for all atheists and therefore, should stop trying to preach your views to us.
Yes, you do preach. You sit there and type your narrow-minded and hateful anti-Christian shite and telling everyone else that they are wrong and that they are the ones that should stop preaching to you.

As far as the video is concerned, I have never thought "wtf?" more times within 14 minutes than just then. I am not even going to begin to discuss it, because, quite frankly, there is too much to say.

[Bobby]

I'm not pointing fingers, but bashing anyone's religion will not be tolerated. Be careful where you take this.

[Cindex]

I'm not pointing fingers, but bashing anyone's religion will not be tolerated. Be careful where you take this.
I don't think that anyone has targeted a specific religion, although this is something to keep in mind.


Canadian, if there is no supernatural beings/leaders (yes, I agree) then what is immoral? Isn't it only how you percieve things? So each person could have a different teaching. Just because the environment you lived in taught you tolerance for homosexuality/race/etc doesn't mean everyone's did. There's no final judge!

Here's a problem with being athiest. No one can really say what is right.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

I don't think that anyone has targeted a specific religion, although this is something to keep in mind.


Canadian, if there is no supernatural beings/leaders (yes, I agree) then what is immoral? Isn't it only how you percieve things? So each person could have a different teaching. Just because the environment you lived in taught you tolerance for homosexuality/race/etc doesn't mean everyone's did. There's no final judge!

Here's a problem with being athiest. No one can really say what is right.


We ALL decide what is right as a society. You don't kill people... because the POLICE WILL SHOOT YOU! :D

But really that's how we make laws and figure out moral codes for society. We set rules to that everyone can live together happily. If you want to be a part of this society... you don't do any of the things we have AGREED upon are bad. Such would be killing, rape, stealing etc.

The final judge... is the REAL judge, the one in court.

As for sugar and spice, why don't you want to discuss the VIDEO (which is what this thread was supposed to be about). If you really disagreed with it so strongly... why not give some reasons why you think it was wrong? The point of that being so HARD is that everything he said in the video is true; harsh fact to deal with.

[Cindex]

We ALL decide what is right as a society. You don't kill people... because the POLICE WILL SHOOT YOU! :D

So the most power controls the world? So if Hitler one it would be RIGHT to follow him. Ok, that's cool.


But really that's how we make laws and figure out moral codes for society. We set rules to that everyone can live together happily. If you want to be a part of this society... you don't do any of the things we have AGREED upon are bad. Such would be killing, rape, stealing etc.

What about people in other societies? What if some places it's allowed? What if some places racism is supposed to happen? What if it's wrong to be tolerant?

Killing isn't always bad. Some people (mass murderers, especially) deserve worse than death anyways. All matters of opinion!


The final judge... is the REAL judge, the one in court.
Wow... Just wow... Not gonna lie, that's pretty lame. Judges judge only for the society that gave them the right to judge. Supreme court judges don't rule the world.

With religion it's easier, the judge is which god(s) you worship. It does really help.

[Sapphire]

We ALL decide what is right as a society. You don't kill people... because the POLICE WILL SHOOT YOU! :D

But really that's how we make laws and figure out moral codes for society. We set rules to that everyone can live together happily. If you want to be a part of this society... you don't do any of the things we have AGREED upon are bad. Such would be killing, rape, stealing etc.

The final judge... is the REAL judge, the one in court.

As for sugar and spice, why don't you want to discuss the VIDEO (which is what this thread was supposed to be about). If you really disagreed with it so strongly... why not give some reasons why you think it was wrong? The point of that being so HARD is that everything he said in the video is true; harsh fact to deal with.
I am sure that you can actually read the rest of my first post and respond to that, as opposed to trying to deflect my attention to what you want to talk about.
Don't think that I haven't noticed you side-stepping the majority of what I wrote. Or the fact that I am the only person to post whom you have challenged over why I disagree with the videos.

But, as I said before, there is too much to disagree with in that video. It isn't all truth. Most of it is just his opinion. His arguments are based, on the whole, on criticising the Christian faith and then he generalises his conclusions to cover all religions. Not exactly a solid argument.
Tbh, I am too tired at 11.25pm to go into it all now, so you will have to make do with that for now.

[Curthose93]

What is this guy saying? Taking advantage of billions of gullible morons isn't immoral, it's just embarassing......

Nah, maybe it's both, but still, you can't speak for all atheists.

[Oblivion]

I will just say, I am atheist, and I have never, ever thought of religion as immoral
It has never even crossed my mind, nor have i ever heard of it being a point against religion
You really can't say all atheists think that... Like religious people, no two people have the exact same beliefs

[theOperaGhost]

What is this guy saying? Taking advantage of billions of gullible morons isn't immoral, it's just embarassing.

If this is not bashing religious people, I don't know what is. You're calling anyone who believes in something a gullible moron...wow... I don't really appreciate being called gullible or a moron or ignorant, and I'm going to stand up for myself.

And to Kodie and Nick, I didn't say all atheists "preach" like that, I said "you and other atheists" because I personally know there are more atheists that "preach" like that than just James. I don't judge all atheists like some people judge all Christians as ignorant, gullible morons. A whole group can NOT be labeled and judged by the views of a minority of extremists.

[Whisper]

People preach on both sides
I have atleast 4 people knock on my door a month with panflets describing how immoral and horrible I am and the way I live is and how the great god can save me


Its on both sides
I have to deal with bible thumpers
You have to deal with enthusiastic atheists

-shrug-


You are correct though this is most definatly on the verge of flat out bashing
which if I must i'll reiterate bobby's post
Bashing will not be tolerated

choose you're words carefully
You won't be warned again

[Antares]

I don't find religion immoral. I just find it stupid. However, I am not an atheist so it doesn't apply to me. Actually, I have never heard of anyone saying it was immoral. So yeah thats a bit too general.

[Techno Monster]

Wow, those vids where pretty enlightening, even though I shouldn't be posting in here because of my religion.
People preach on both sides
I have atleast 4 people knock on my door a month with panflets describing how immoral and horrible I am and the way I live is and how the great god can save me





Though one time, there where these people handing out bibles at my school in the morning, and my friend was enough of a genius to say something along the lines of,
"Omg Caitlin, your a Wiccan, aren't you?" Right in front of these guys. Before I could smack him, one of them is all like, "
You are going to burn in the deepest level of hell if you don't change your path soon. I hope you know that the good lord doesn't tolerate occults like you."
I just rolled my eyes and walked away.
I hate jerks. :mad:

[The Resurrected One]

Well, I'm going to make it official.

I am anti-religious. There. And back to the issue of homosexuality: Anybody on this site who says that it is wrong or says anything negative about it, will get on my bad side and earn negative rep from me. There.

Now then: Although I am anti-religious, I am NOT anti-God. I believe in God and respect him, but religion is ridiculous.

[CaptainObvious]

You know TCG, I'm a staunch atheist (as in I have absolutely no belief in God); this stems out of my serious aversion to arguments and beliefs not based in unequivocal fact and reasoning - like yours here. I think that, in the context of greater human history, to decry religion as a destructive or immoral force is simply myopic.

Religion today may have lost its place, compared to the dynamic and - for the first time in human history, really - quite peaceful secular societies with strong moral values that have sprung up throughout the world. However, in the context of history, this has not been the case; religions and their institutions were often the first civilizing force that marshaled together early humans. You may decry religion now, but without common belief in the supernatural I would suggest that humanity's evolution would have taken a radically different - and quite probably less quick and successful - path.

In fact, even in the modern day, I don't necessarily think your argument is defensible. Religion is responsible for a very large number of horrible things. However, how many of those things can we honestly say are due specifically to religion, as opposed to the general propensity of humans to believe in stupid crap based on emotions and rhetoric? For example, Islamic terrorists are terrible, and Islam represents a particularly effective and often vicious set of ideas that are particularly suited for militant fundamentalism and conquest. However, if the evil men who run terrorist organizations were deprived of the weapon of religios faith, do you think there would no longer be such rampant terror in the Middle East? Or would it simply be cloaked in some new ideal, such as Arab racial supremacy, or some such thing?

On the other hand, many religions are responsible for large amounts of charity, for example. If you are talking about religion's impact upon science, or free thought, you may be right that it is immoral. But on the larger, much less simple, and ultimately much more inclusive scale of goodness by which things must be measured in a total sense in our world, I think your argument fails.

In your atheist fervor, your are coming much too close to the narrowmindedness of a religious person for my tastes.

[george]

Honestly, if people want to be religious and have a religion then let them, if they feel that it's "immoral" or "stupid" then they can have their opinions. Why does it matter if someone feels that religion is immoral? Why do people have to push their opinions onto other people?

And just as a little note on the side, pretty much ALL adjectives are opinions like "immoral" or "stupid.

[Sapphire]

Now then: Although I am anti-religious, I am NOT anti-God. I believe in God and respect him, but religion is ridiculous.
BUT, to believe in God is to be religious...

[The Resurrected One]

BUT, to believe in God is to be religious...

Not in my case.

[Sapphire]

Not in my case.
To be religious is to have faith in a Higher Power. If you believe in God, then you are religious.

[The Resurrected One]

Do I have any believe anything (else) the Bible says? No. And nothing else for that matter.

[Sapphire]

I never said that you do. It is not essential to believe the Holy Scriptures to be religious. To be deemed as religious, all that is essential is a belief in God.

[The Resurrected One]

Well, ok then. Maybe I meant to say that I am anti-Bible or whatever.

I do not classify myself as any religion.

[Jean Poutine]

because north korea being officially an atheist country stops it from commiting genocide against its own population, underfeeding them for the profit of the armed forces and driving what little money the country has in the upkeep of one of the largest standing armies in the world, right?


because north korea being officially an atheist country stops it from directing the movements, jobs, thoughts and ideas of their population and barring the access to anything coming from outside the country to everyone but the most senior members of the ruling communist party, right?

oh wait...

religion isn't immoral. people are, and nutcases will be nutcases no matter what. faith in anything is dangerous. faith in unrelenting communism led to the fall of the USSR, and faith in savage capitalism led to the fall of fully laissez-faire economics as a whole. this whole "religion is immoral" thing, just stop it. it's both outdated and extremely tired. I'm not religious (as in I'm catholic but never go to church) and my belief in god tends to wave left and right. I'm just tired of preaching.

I'm sure you don't want the U.S. to LOSE its place as the intellectual super-power.
sweden has more nobel prizes per capita than the united states and has a state religion system where people are deemed members as soon as they are born.

inb4 "sweden haz liek a lot of atheistz lol" : switzerland has an even higher proportion and little of the population considers itself atheist.

[Atonement]

sweden has more nobel prizes per capita than the united states and has a state religion system where people are deemed members as soon as they are born.

Helps when Sweden is the nation that awards the prize.

Good argument by the way.

[Whisper]

North Korea has no official religion because of the way the country is set up
Kim Ill Sun is basically their god Kim Jong-il's birth was...interesting apparently it was foretold
"Official biographers claim that his birth at Baekdu Mountain was foretold by a swallow, and heralded by the appearance of a double rainbow over the mountain and a new star in the heavens."

They do have churches though practicing Christianity
except there are no priests the ones leading the sermon and heads of the church are government officials

They are NOT an atheist state
they're just fucked

[Jean Poutine]

fine, if north korea won't fit (even though personality cults aren't religions - god(ly) vs god-like), then what about the khmer rouge, who between 1975 and 1979 sought to kill off religion from cambodia and exerciced one of the biggest genocides seen by mankind?

religion is sooooooo immoral and eradicating it will elevate everyone to super goodness! well, that's not what happened in cambodia. nutcases, my friends, will be nutcases no matter what, even if the ideology they embrace has nothing to do with religion. remove the "screw religion" from the khmer rouge's program and you've still got the atrocities, the anti-intellectualism, the idea of rural superiority...which led to a lot more deaths than I can remember.

pol pot and his gang were atheists and communists through and through. that didn't keep them from being total batshit crazy.

I can assure you pol pot wasn't revered as a god, in fact you'd get killed in there for doing so. his image was rarely seen and personality cults were discouraged.

and this leads us again to : "excessive faith in any ideology, doctrine, theory or thought system is dangerous, not only religious faith".

[Cindex]

I don't really appreciate being called gullible or a moron or ignorant, and I'm going to stand up for myself.

And to Kodie and Nick, I didn't say all atheists "preach" like that, I said "you and other atheists" because I personally know there are more atheists that "preach" like that than just James. I don't judge all atheists like some people judge all Christians as ignorant, gullible morons. A whole group can NOT be labeled and judged by the views of a minority of extremists.
Good, don't take that.

Thank you. It's true. I don't want to say "us" because that's generalizing, but those of us who just choose to be content don't try to convert others. Christains aren't ignorant. They're usually higher spirited because they have something to look forward to. What does an atheist like me have to look forward to? Death.


I will just say, I am atheist, and I have never, ever thought of religion as immoral
It has never even crossed my mind, nor have i ever heard of it being a point against religion

Exactly. Can anyone really say, directly, why it is immoral? What's to not like about religion? Except maybe the preaching... But that is on both sides.


What is this guy saying? Taking advantage of billions of gullible morons isn't immoral, it's just embarassing......

Nah, maybe it's both, but still, you can't speak for all atheists.
Dude... That's not cool. Gullible morons? At least they're positive!

No, no one can.

Honestly, if people want to be religious and have a religion then let them, if they feel that it's "immoral" or "stupid" then they can have their opinions. Why does it matter if someone feels that religion is immoral? Why do people have to push their opinions onto other people?

And just as a little note on the side, pretty much ALL adjectives are opinions like "immoral" or "stupid.
Exactly. Why should you or I care what others think? Why should anyone?

Technically yes. Unless you're using like, colors or something lol.

[Curthose93]

PianoMan: I know I went over the line using words like gullible and moron(see the next paragraph), but as for ignorance-- no one appreciates anything that makes them feel belittled or stupid, but the atheist position is that religion is nonsense, and... I don't quite know how to say this... just don't take it too hard when atheists call religious people ignorant( if you can think of a kinder synonym for "ignorant" then please, tell us). And just remember: atheists where I live, in the United States, are prone to being driven out of town and cut-off from society-at-large for simply stating that we don't believe, so man up and learn to take a few harsh words in defense of your beliefs. When the society we live in is being overrun by Christian beliefs and an overzealous majority, don't expect it to be all ice-cream and lollipops between the two groups. And since the very core of atheistic belief is, generally, that religion is a lie or a misguided delusion, demanding that we stop using words like "ignorant" is backing us into a corner and basically infringes upon our right to express what we believe-- no matter how insulting you find it.

Alright, as for my earlier post, where I called all religious people "gullible morons". I realize that the language I used in that post was excessively rude and insulting. I apologise for that. Ok, moving on...

Now, on the subject of religion being immoral: I do believe that religion is immoral because it is based on what I think is a lie, which is that there is a supernatural force that created and/or is influencing the universe today, and that there is/was someone out there who knows the truth about the universe, or something to that effect. I know that no religious or spiritual folk would agree with the assessment of religion being immoral, because they are of the opposing viewpoint - that there is a god or whatever you may believe.

I believe that if you look at religion, it does only two things: First, it attempts to explain that which science cannot(yet). Second, through it's claim that it is able to explain the "unexplainable", it attempts to dictate to people how to think, and how to live their lives. I believe that duping people into following you through unfulfillable promises and false wisdom, is completely immoral. And that is what religion does. I think that in an age where human survival no longer depends on keeping the people in line, no matter what the cost(as in the most primitive societies), and our knowledge about the world is able to completely fulfill all the functions as supersition once did, religion is doubly immoral because it not only lies, but it does so blatantly in the face of reason and science, and oppresses people, keeping them down(even though they don't know it) using lies and ignorance.

While I agree that religion is immoral, I do have to point out that CanadianGuy shows an arrogant face by asserting that "Atheists Find Religion Immoral", because I know atheists who believe that there is nothing wrong with organized religion or spirituality.

EDIT: You see, this is why I don't like getting involved on these threads, even though I feel so compelled to do so. All I seem to be able to do is insult someone. These kind of threads on religion are basically traps to start up a religious flamewar between atheists and the religious people. I've decided that since I am so unable to get through a religously-themed thread without tripping over my own words and getting mad at myself, that I am just going to stick to politics and whatnot and stay out of any religious thread.

Oh, and Cindex, george: I cannot speak for anyone else, but I am not pushing my beliefs on anyone. I answered the issue that was raised by the OP. Maybe you don't like the subject, but we have a right to speak our minds regarding religion and morals. So quit whining about people "pushing their opinions". If you hate free speech that much, then why don't you go to North Korea? I'm sure they'd love to have you.

[theOperaGhost]

The religious people in your part of the United States are apparently asses. Nobody where I live in the United States gives two shits about another person's religion. I actually have several atheist friends. I don't have too many problems with them, except one is extremely racist, homophobic, and sexist. You must live in an area of very conservative Christians...and I thought North Dakota was a conservative state...hmm...I truly have absolutely no problem with atheists, until they try to turn me away from my beliefs. I have that same problem with religious people who try to make me more religious, or try to push their beliefs on other people. The only reason I argue is because I'm not ignorant. I make my own decisions, believe what I want, deny what I want.

I don't think our society is being overrun by a MAJORITY of overzealous Christians. Sadly, the small MINORITY of Christian extremists is trying to overrun society. They are basically cult leaders, like Charles Manson; they find the people who can't and don't make their own decisions and instill lies in their heads. NOW, these lies go above and beyond all the lies atheism claims Christianity puts out. This small minority of religious leaders interpret what they want to, not what is truly written.

And, on another note, you cannot generalize ALL Christians as IGNORANT. People who are weak minded are ignorant. People who give into people are ignorant. There are most certainly ignorant Christians, but not ALL of them! That's like saying all Islamic people are terrorists. It's just not true.

[george]

Technically yes. Unless you're using like, colors or something lol.

Nope, something that's red could be called "dark pink" or something weird like that lol

I remember I was talking to my English teacher about it and she said a few selection of adjectives that WEREN'T opinions but I don't remember what they were.

Oh, and Cindex, george: I cannot speak for anyone else, but I am not pushing my beliefs on anyone. I answered the issue that was raised by the OP. Maybe you don't like the subject, but we have a right to speak our minds regarding religion and morals. So quit whining about people "pushing their opinions". If you hate free speech that much, then why don't you go to North Korea? I'm sure they'd love to have you.

I never said YOU were pushing your opinion onto other people, I'm simply saying that people should just be what religion they want to be or not be religious at all without having people say that so and so's religion is stupid or that not being religious is stupid.

Just let people be what they want without being bothered.

[Oblivion]

If this is not bashing religious people, I don't know what is. You're calling anyone who believes in something a gullible moron...wow... I don't really appreciate being called gullible or a moron or ignorant, and I'm going to stand up for myself.

And to Kodie and Nick, I didn't say all atheists "preach" like that, I said "you and other atheists" because I personally know there are more atheists that "preach" like that than just James. I don't judge all atheists like some people judge all Christians as ignorant, gullible morons. A whole group can NOT be labeled and judged by the views of a minority of extremists.

I was talking to ThatCanadianGuy...
That he can't generalize all atheists like that, because I know at least Carole and I disagree

[Cindex]

Oh, and Cindex, george: I cannot speak for anyone else, but I am not pushing my beliefs on anyone. I answered the issue that was raised by the OP. Maybe you don't like the subject, but we have a right to speak our minds regarding religion and morals. So quit whining about people "pushing their opinions". If you hate free speech that much, then why don't you go to North Korea? I'm sure they'd love to have you.
Insulting people is not pushing your opinion! That's insulting people.

Actually, I'd be killed in North Korea. Sure they'd love it.

By the way, I do share the belief that there is no God. I am an athiest, but I support religion in the ways that it can unite others.


I truly have absolutely no problem with atheists, until they try to turn me away from my beliefs. I have that same problem with religious people who try to make me more religious, or try to push their beliefs on other people. The only reason I argue is because I'm not ignorant. I make my own decisions, believe what I want, deny what I want.

It's the exact same for a lot of us. It seems that the ones calling it "immoral" are the same type of people as the Religious leaders who go around telling you you're going to hell.

We can all believe what we want, so why criticize at all? Maybe they think yours is stupid? (Going to people saying religion is immoral)


I don't think our society is being overrun by a MAJORITY of overzealous Christians. Sadly, the small MINORITY of Christian extremists is trying to overrun society. They are basically cult leaders, like Charles Manson; they find the people who can't and don't make their own decisions and instill lies in their heads. NOW, these lies go above and beyond all the lies atheism claims Christianity puts out. This small minority of religious leaders interpret what they want to, not what is truly written.
Exactly. The only Christian people you really hear about are the ones that are extremists. We don't hear about the friendly pastor on the end of the block, because he isn't doing anything unordinary.

Nope, something that's red could be called "dark pink" or something weird like that lol

I remember I was talking to my English teacher about it and she said a few selection of adjectives that WEREN'T opinions but I don't remember what they were.
But it is dark pink.

Apache is the most popular server. That's not an opinion, it's proven. It's like 90% of everything.


I was talking to ThatCanadianGuy...
That he can't generalize all atheists like that, because I know at least Carole and I disagree
And I.

[Perseus]

how is religion immoral? ( yes i know a bunch people have asked this but oh well) How is someone dying because Romans tortured him immoral? actually Romans torturing is immoral but Christianity isnt. Actually if it wasnt for religion there would be no Christmas and no one would get anything at the end of the year. Yes maybe killing animals for one's sins can be kind of immoral but that's why God sacrificed someone, so there'd be no more masskilling of animals, even though we still do it. So religion is not immoral, but that's my opion, so keep on believing what you believe Canadian Guy. No one will stop you because that's your opion on what you think.

[CaptainObvious]

how is religion immoral? ( yes i know a bunch people have asked this but oh well) How is someone dying because Romans tortured him immoral? actually Romans torturing is immoral but Christianity isnt. Actually if it wasnt for religion there would be no Christmas and no one would get anything at the end of the year. Yes maybe killing animals for one's sins can be kind of immoral but that's why God sacrificed someone, so there'd be no more masskilling of animals, even though we still do it. So religion is not immoral, but that's my opion, so keep on believing what you believe Canadian Guy. No one will stop you because that's your opion on what you think.

This was an extremely jumbled and basically worthless post. Though I agree with you that TCG's argument is flawed, it obviously went right over your head since what you've respondd with in no way addresses his argument.

[george]

But it is dark pink.

Apache is the most popular server. That's not an opinion, it's proven. It's like 90% of everything.

Exactly, but then someone else could say its not dark pink, its some weird purple and so on and so on.

Apache would be a noun in the sentence "Apache is the most popular server."

[Curthose93]

DAMN! I type up all this **** that sounds really convincing and the damned Internet Explorer has a stupid 'error' and it all gets erased.... I'll just have to do some stupid.... abbridged version.

Cindex: You claim to like religion because it unifies people.... behind what? A lie. That just shows you to be cynical-"Who cares if it's a lie, it makes them happy." How is that a good thing?

Christians: Yeah, I called Christians gullible morons. Hey, give me a good, reasonable explanation about what makes you a Christian(why you believe, etc), and I'll accept any flak that I'm given. But, if you can't tell me why your religion is so convincing, then I have no reason to think anything else than that Christians are "gullible morons".

[Hyper]

and this leads us again to : "excessive faith in any ideology, doctrine, theory or thought system is dangerous, not only religious faith".

I love it how the best arguement is ignored so I have to quote it :)

All extremist viewpoints are harmful.. And this thread has restored my small faith in humanity xD

[theOperaGhost]

I love it how the best arguement is ignored so I have to quote it :)

All extremist viewpoints are harmful.. And this thread has restored my small faith in humanity xD

Exactly. Extremists really need to get a life in my opinion.

[Triceratops]

Okay, I'm a theist and a lot of my relatives are Christians or Catholics and that sort of influenced me to believe in God when I was younger. This is not the reason why I believe God exists because I can make my own choices myself and I would never let anyone encourage me into their own beliefs.

I really couldn't care less if people shove so much "God isn't real! Blah blah. You're deluded." in my face because I have had personal experiences towards God that I use as evidence that he does exist. I've never rubbed my views and beliefs on to anyone else as I keep them to myself. I've been so much sh*t in my life and I had no where to turn to and it just came to the point where I was totally breaking down and near suicide. Funnily enough, I actually began to pray. I was like 14 at the time and I hadn't prayed since I was a little girl. I was crying and praying for God to save me, and you know what? I could feel his presence and I knew he was going to help me. It's so indescribable but people who have felt this will know what I'm talking about. So basically it would've taken a freaking miracle to save me from how completely broken I was, but God did rescue me and my life was getting so much better from then, just like that.

Ever since then, I pray very often and I can always count on God to help me through all the rough situations I face. Of course there are times where I get depressed and angry again, but that's just life. If I'm a good person to God on Earth, then as soon as I pass away I will be united with him in Heaven.

You can tell me that God is unreal as much as you want but there is no way any of you can change my thoughts and emotions towards God. And if you really want to see if God exists or not, wait until you die and see where you're at in afterlife. I know this sounds really morbid but it's just what I believe and where my hearts at.

[enjoiskater94]

Believe what you want. I personally am not religious. Unless somebody is willing to judge me because i have no religion, i'll like them just as much as the next guy.

[INFERNO]

I'll start off by saying the first thing about this thread that I don't like: you're trying to speak for all atheists. You may agree with something and so may your friends and family but does the remaining 99% agree? You cant magically assume they do. As an atheist, not only do I not believe in a god or such but I also do agree that theism should go down. On that note, seeing as how it's a comforting cushion, believe in it if you wish however, it shouldn't be your main focus, the main focus should be directed towards science, rational thinking, etc... . I know it sounds sort of contradicting but my view is theism should be nothing more than a few little bedtime stories not to be taken seriously at all.

I think it's holding back society as look at how far we've come as science and technology evolved. From the phone to the human genome project and the list goes on. Now look at what theism has done for us: diddlyshit.

I view Christianity (and other beliefs like it) as a simple means of control designed into some fancy little story so way back when it was being "invented", people were even stupider than today and instantly believed it. The thought of some god condemning you and the word of jesus blah blah blah, noah, david and all the other little friends provide some good morals but their actual stories seem to be utter bullshit.

As much as I love pain, torture, and sadism, the beliefs I just cant grasp and actually sit down to believe in. I find it, particularly Christianity, to have tons of contradictions. One point is made and somewhere in the bible it's contradicted. For example, don't kill (or as in the Old Testament, don't kill without proper reason). Next thing you know, god is off killing various places left, right and center. Also, if a girl is raped, kill the rapist and the girl. Not only is this going against the commandement of thou shall not kill/murder but where's the logic? Kill her for not being willing? If she's willing and sleeps with multiple men and all, she's sinning and off to everlasting torture and brimestone she goes. If she's with only the 1 man, she cant even think about another man. Thoughts and actions are completely different. I can think about torturing someone but that's harmless. Actually going about and doing that is harmful.

I don't intend to speak for all atheists. If you're an atheist and allow others to believe in whatever, that's fine.

It's hard to give an argument and not sound like you're preaching. Granted, it can be done but a long, detailed argument tends to have some degree of preaching. There's a difference though with preaching involving "believe this or you'll be tortured forever and ever muhawahwahwahw" versus preaching involving "believe this or you and your society won't be very successful but I won't torture you". I'm trying to go for the second one. As much as I absolutely do love sadism and the first option, senseless violence is just barbaric. I'll like to watch it and possibly compliment the actual artwork (sometimes there's no artwork in which case it's not all that admirable) but not actually do it. I know these reasonings to others seem well, completely screwed even if you bash your head against the wall or go all loopy from taking a nice trail mix of drugs but I'm at a loss of words for trying to explain my own demented and dark world.

[Whisper]

Live and let live
I don't care what somebody believes as long as their beliefs don't become my laws

The problem with most religions is there unstoppable nagging and urgent need to convert and push their thoughts and way of life onto everyone

That is why I don't trust religion
Very few ever leave people alone
then you get the extremist atheists
that just live to attack and attack
and just ya
I don't have the patience for it

[MoveAlong]

You are doing the same thing religion does. To tell the truth, atheism isn't a religion, but you and other atheists pretty much make it one.

Oh hell no sucka, ain't all atheists be doing that
I, as an atheist, do not try to lead people away from what is "wrong", and we do not have an all powerful being that we rely on or love or look up to, so no, you cannot say it is a religion, and there are no systematic beliefs or stories in atheism, so you know what sorry but no we do not make it a religion. We just disagree with soma yo beliefs.

[thiscityisdead]

I am anti-religious. There. And back to the issue of homosexuality: Anybody on this site who says that it is wrong or says anything negative about it, will get on my bad side

Now then: Although I am anti-religious, I am NOT anti-God. I believe in God and respect him, but religion is ridiculous.


i feel the same wayy about all of this, i just think that religion is screwed up and immoral.

[Curthose93]

Yeah, if you want to call atheism a religon, then you have to categorize, for example, all non-Christians as one religion, all non-Buddhists as another religion, all non-Muslims(including all Christians, atheists, Shintoists, etc) as another unified belief system...

[theOperaGhost]

Oh hell no sucka, ain't all atheists be doing that
I, as an atheist, do not try to lead people away from what is "wrong", and we do not have an all powerful being that we rely on or love or look up to, so no, you cannot say it is a religion, and there are no systematic beliefs or stories in atheism, so you know what sorry but no we do not make it a religion. We just disagree with soma yo beliefs.

I said right in my post that atheism ISN'T a religion, so I never said it was. I also didn't generalize every atheist, I said you ("you" happens to be James in my original post) and others. James does the exact same thing that religious extremists do, only with opposite views.

Religious extremists (who are, imo, very corrupted people) try to get everyone to believe in their God and all of the teachings of their religion. James, and other atheists (not ALL atheists) may not have specific teachings in which they are trying to get people to believe, per se, however they are trying to persuade people AWAY from their personal beliefs, which I don't think is right.

I don't consider myself to be religious anymore (not that I ever was), I just hate people trying to sway other people away from their personal beliefs. Atheists hate when religious people try to get them to believe in God, so why can't Christians hate when atheists call them ignorant for believing something? That seems hypocritical to me.

I hate these things equally...I don't like seeing religious people saying atheists are wrong and stupid and going to hell, because that is not true. But I also don't like it when atheists are saying religious people are ignorant bigots, because this is also not true...it is a generalization of a whole group of people, that is in fact only true of the extremists.