Are laws based on morality?

[theOperaGhost]

I can see both sides of the argument on this one. I see that laws can be based on morality because it is morally wrong to kill someone or steal from someone. I can also see that it infringes on another person's rights.

Another thing is why does morality have to be a religious concept? Why are morals just religious? Isn't saying that also saying that if there were no religion there would also be no morals?

[Sapphire]

Morals are not just religious. People can have a good sense of what is right/wrong without actually believing in God.

[theOperaGhost]

Exactly, then why doesn't the United States legislate morality? There is a separation of church and state, but morals are not just religious.

[Sapphire]

I'm beginning to think that different people are using the term "legislate morality" differently. What do you mean by it?

When I see it isolated like that it makes me smile because it almost looks like it's something that you can make illegal lol. But that is not the case so just ignore that comment lol.

Morality can be defined as a system of ideas as to what is right and what is wrong. Without a sense of what is right/wrong then no one would deem anything as being "bad". As such it is reasonable to say that laws are, to an extent, based on a sense of morality. I am not saying that the whole legal system is based entirely on morals, but actually that the basis of the legal system is moral.

[theOperaGhost]

By legislate morality, I mean make laws based on what is moral.

[Oblivion]

Laws are NOT based on morals
The MAY overlap, but the laws aren't based on them.
Morals are religious concepts, and you can't put religion and law together, because it is illegal in the United States.
You can have a sense of right and wrong, but that is included in the human thought process. If you know everything about right or wrong that doesn't mean you have morals.
Laws are based off the safe keeping of the country in which they are present.

(IMO)

[Sapphire]

There are serial offenders who have no conscience and do not deem that what they have done is wrong. They see what they want and take it or they see something they want to do and they do it. No questions asked.
A less extreme example can be found in young children. Small children at play are often selfish and can get violent (hitting each other) they don't know that it is wrong to hit and that it is right to share.

These are examples of where the difference between right and wrong haven't been learnt or developed. It is something that develops as we grow and develop. It is completely seperate from religion. If it weren't then any child raised in an athiest environment would grow up to be unruly criminals.

mor·al (môrl, mr-)
adj.
1. Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character: moral scrutiny; a moral quandary.
2. Teaching or exhibiting goodness or correctness of character and behavior: a moral lesson.
3. Conforming to standards of what is right or just in behavior; virtuous: a moral life.
4. Arising from conscience or the sense of right and wrong: a moral obligation.
5. Having psychological rather than physical or tangible effects: a moral victory; moral support.
6. Based on strong likelihood or firm conviction, rather than on the actual evidence: a moral certainty.
n.
1. The lesson or principle contained in or taught by a fable, a story, or an event.
2. A concisely expressed precept or general truth; a maxim.
3. morals Rules or habits of conduct, especially of sexual conduct, with reference to standards of right and wrong: a person of loose morals; a decline in the public morals.

From The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language

Do you still think that a sense of right/wrong is different from having morals?

[Dolphus Raymond]

The definition of "morality" does not have to relate to religion at all. A lot of people say, "well, but that's the difference between laws and morals--morals are religious, and you can't make religion law." But there are no laws against lying about something (outside of a contract), and that's clearly immoral.

[Maverick]

Its a bit arrogant to say morals come from religion only. It basically says that atheists or agnostics have no morals. Morals are human created concepts on what a society thinks is right or wrong.

[theOperaGhost]

I just don't get why people say morals are a religious concept. Does that mean if religion didn't exist, no one would have morals and not know the difference between right and wrong? That would also have to mean that all atheists would lack any morals.

[Zephyr]

Religion is just a very good base for morality because a major part of religion is passing on that morality. That doesn't mean that if you're without you have no morals. I've never attended church for as long as I could think for myself, I'm an Ahteist, but I have a set of my own morals that I try to live by.

Laws being based on morals sounds ideal, but it's a dangerous area because people will automatically point it back at religion. You have to be very careful of how you go about it. Just do what is logical and benefits everybody that best when making laws I guess.

[[[chickaroo92]]]

Most laws are based on religious morals... such as "Thou shalt not kill". But, in general, just because someone is not religious, doesn't mean they have no morals. Everyone could have morals which they follow on a regular basis.

[Dolphus Raymond]

Most laws are based on religious morals... such as "Thou shalt not kill".

I have to disagree with that. As far as I know, there have never been any societies where killing was allowed. Killing being wrong far predated Christianity and the Ten Commandments. Or, more accurately, murder, which is how most Christians interpret that commandment (which they feel allows for the death penalty).

But stealing, killing, etc., are self-evidently wrong without religion.

[Sapphire]

A person can grow up to become aware of what is right or wrong regardless of any absence of a religious background. Equally, a person can grow up in a religious household and, for other reasons, lack a certain grip on what is right or wrong.

I wonder what makes people think that the two go hand-in-hand?

[The Batman]

Wait a minute what does any of this have to do with laws and morals? You can have morals without religion. Laws are based off morals because morals are a sense of right and wrong just like laws.

[Antares]

Yes, laws are moral. However, I do not think that they are all based on religion. You can go to any area in the world and regardless of their religion they will usually say that it is bad for people to steal. So that is my little take.

[Bobby]

I'd like to say that I think all laws and morals are stemmed from religious beliefs. The world was run on religion a long time ago and where else would people get ideas that stealing is bad? Those morals have evolved and now it's just common place.

[Sapphire]

But religion hasn't existed as long as humans have.

[Bobby]

You don't think religion was created to give humans a set of moral standards to live by?

[Sapphire]

I think that it came about in an attempt to answer some questions about the world to people who were otherwise incapable of answering them. The whole religion thing, IMO, confirmed a common ground for what people saw as right and wrong, in addition to giving them some security. Not creating a sense of morality.

[Bobby]

In my opinion morality goes hand in hand with right and wrong. I do agree with the rest of you're statement. To me, morality = a code of conduct. A code of conduct = right and wrong.

[Sapphire]

I never said that morality and right and wrong are different. I was saying that morality isn't purely religious.

[Bobby]

Well it isn't purely religious. But don't you think it is heavily influenced by religion? The world was run on religion for a long time and that had to have had a huge influence on people's opinions of morality.

[The Batman]

Religion has been around as long as humans have this isn't just coming from my bible either. Think about the indian tribes, and even the Cavemen they both had some kind of religion.

[Sapphire]

Religion provides a sort of middle ground.
It sets a "norm" in relation to many aspects of life and morality is one of them.

Religion has been around as long as humans have this isn't just coming from my bible either. Think about the indian tribes, and even the Cavemen they both had some kind of religion.


Really? As far as I am aware there is inconclusive evidence of pre-historic religions.

[serial-thrilla]

Well it isn't purely religious. But don't you think it is heavily influenced by religion? The world was run on religion for a long time and that had to have had a huge influence on people's opinions of morality. Religion was law for a very long period of time, which did sort of make people realize what was right and wrong.

[Whisper]

I can see both sides of the argument on this one. I see that laws can be based on morality because it is morally wrong to kill someone or steal from someone. I can also see that it infringes on another person's rights.

Another thing is why does morality have to be a religious concept? Why are morals just religious? Isn't saying that also saying that if there were no religion there would also be no morals?

Some laws are
But the reality is
if you have enough money
Nothing matters really
But if your poor and innocent...Your in allot of trouble
Our courts are flawed like that


Morality and concience have nothing to do with religion
The church has twisted people perception of it to the point where many belive that if you dont go to church every sunday, pray to this "god", and trust in the church
then you are a horribly corrupt and immoral person

and that just is NOT the case

[[[chickaroo92]]]

I have to disagree with that. As far as I know, there have never been any societies where killing was allowed. Killing being wrong far predated Christianity and the Ten Commandments. Or, more accurately, murder, which is how most Christians interpret that commandment (which they feel allows for the death penalty).

But stealing, killing, etc., are self-evidently wrong without religion.


I said they were BASED on religious morals. Now in "modern" days, people tend to think that laws aren't from a religious stand-point. Everything in this world came from a religious perspective, in my opinion of course.

[CaptainObvious]

I said they were BASED on religious morals. Now in "modern" days, people tend to think that laws aren't from a religious stand-point. Everything in this world came from a religious perspective, in my opinion of course.

Everything in this world came from religion? Where did you get that idea? Since organized religion didn't even come about until a few thousand years ago, and humans have been around for much longer, that's the kind of argument that I consider impossible to defend on its merits.

As for saying that our laws and morals come from religion, religion did make common-sense moral prescriptions into stronger directives, but since then they have been codified into true moral systems based on axioms and defined premises, which is even better. And those systems are valid without religion.

[Rutherford The Brave]

Religion has been around as long as humans have this isn't just coming from my bible either. Think about the indian tribes, and even the Cavemen they both had some kind of religion.

Thats cold too cold........I still think religion doesnt play a role in anything.

[[[chickaroo92]]]

Everything in this world came from religion? Where did you get that idea? Since organized religion didn't even come about until a few thousand years ago, and humans have been around for much longer, that's the kind of argument that I consider impossible to defend on its merits.

As for saying that our laws and morals come from religion, religion did make common-sense moral prescriptions into stronger directives, but since then they have been codified into true moral systems based on axioms and defined premises, which is even better. And those systems are valid without religion.

Yeah. So people happened to be around a bit longer then religion. So? When G-d and Moses read out the Ten Commandments, they were based upon religion. We're all from some sort of religion. I mean, there's Judaism, Christianity, Atheism. Wiccan... etc. Also, basically all laws, such as "Thou shalt not steal" comes from the Ten Commandments, and they are all based on religious morals. Even if you do not come from a specific religion, there still are morals in which you should follow.

[The Batman]

Thats cold too cold........I still think religion doesnt play a role in anything.
I said indians because I was referring to more than just native americans, and to me it's just a general term sorry though.

[Sapphire]

Yeah. So people happened to be around a bit longer then religion. So? When G-d and Moses read out the Ten Commandments, they were based upon religion. We're all from some sort of religion. I mean, there's Judaism, Christianity, Atheism. Wiccan... etc. Also, basically all laws, such as "Thou shalt not steal" comes from the Ten Commandments, and they are all based on religious morals. Even if you do not come from a specific religion, there still are morals in which you should follow.

The Ten Commandments are religious, not based on religion.

Excuse me, but which Commandment forbids sexual relations with prepubescent children? Which one tells us that to beat up the man/woman that is screwing your wife/husband is wrong?

[Whisper]

How is Indian cold?
I get called whitie, white boy, etc... all the time
Should i freak and demand to be called Caucasian



~~~

As far as not beating up someone who slept with your wife
In the old days that could get you killed
I firmly believe that morality is based off the human conscience and soul, not some religion invented by man
I'm not religious and nobody in my immediate family is
Yet I have an extremely strong conscience that eats me alive if I step out of line

[Dolphus Raymond]

Yeah. So people happened to be around a bit longer then religion. So? When G-d and Moses read out the Ten Commandments, they were based upon religion. We're all from some sort of religion. I mean, there's Judaism, Christianity, Atheism. Wiccan... etc. Also, basically all laws, such as "Thou shalt not steal" comes from the Ten Commandments, and they are all based on religious morals. Even if you do not come from a specific religion, there still are morals in which you should follow.

But, if I wrote the Big Book of Alconism right now, and it said "thou shalt not carry food onto buses," I couldn't go around claiming that that law was based on religion. "Based" means "having foundations in." Something cannot be a foundation if it came along thousands of years later. Religion happens to agree with some laws, and vice-versa. That does not mean they come from, or are based on, religion.

How is Indian cold?
I get called whitie, white boy, etc... all the time
Should i freak and demand to be called Caucasian

Perfectly fine term to me too. Canadians call us First Nations, Americans call us American Indians/Native Americans. What are we together, "Native North Americans"? Bulky...I'm cool with "Indian," "injun," "redskin," really whatever. Then again I've never been called "Indian" derisively. Maybe I'd care if I had a lot. But I doubt it...

[CaptainObvious]

Yeah. So people happened to be around a bit longer then religion. So? When G-d and Moses read out the Ten Commandments, they were based upon religion. We're all from some sort of religion. I mean, there's Judaism, Christianity, Atheism. Wiccan... etc. Also, basically all laws, such as "Thou shalt not steal" comes from the Ten Commandments, and they are all based on religious morals. Even if you do not come from a specific religion, there still are morals in which you should follow.

...uhhh... what? Let's lay this out:

For all morals to have been "based on" religion, religion must have been the source of all morals. But this is demonstrably not the case, and since religion has not been around as long as humans, it makes no sense as a proposition anyways.

The Ten Commandments, by the way, are not based on religion - they are religion. More importantly, though you appear to have trouble understanding this, many parts of the world have jurisprudence that comes from sources other than the 10 Commandments. In fact, the commandments weren't even close to the first things to provide moral guidance about their chosen issues - they came along significantly later than a number of other systems of justice and morality.

Finally, not all of us are religious, since atheism is by its nature exactly not a religion.

I suspect your point of view on this topic comes from being raised religious. That's fine, but you need to extract yourself from the binds it places on your critical thinking, because you're apparently having some trouble with the concept of religion not being the progenitor of all morality. It's not.

[The Batman]

Can you please provide us with the links to all this information you seem to be getting?

[CaptainObvious]

Which information? The information that other cultures get their jurisprudence from sources other than the Christian Ten Commandments? China and Confucianism, for example?

Or the fact that there were many codes of jurisprudence and morality before the Ten Commandments? The Code of Hammurabi and other Babylonian Kings, for example?

This information is all common sense if you know your history a little bit.

[The Batman]

What you call common sense I call an opinion. I do know my history and I haven't heard any of this information before.

[Sapphire]

It makes sense that while Jews were referring to the Ten Commandments on how to live life in the way that God wants them to, that others were referring to other scripts for the same information

[Whisper]

What you call common sense I call an opinion. I do know my history and I haven't heard any of this information before.
Its not an opinion
It's documented cultural history

[Dolphus Raymond]

What you call common sense I call an opinion. I do know my history and I haven't heard any of this information before.

You haven't heard of the Code of Hammurabi? That surprises me. There were many legalistic, pre-Christian societies. You thought that murder, theft, etc., were unpunished before the Ten Commandments?

It's not an opinion, it's factual record. And, I think, innate. Stealing/killing being wrong is probably biological to us. It even is to "lesser" animals, like chimps.

[The Batman]

I've heard of it but never really learned about it. I'm sorry then I was wrong. Anyways I do think that morals and laws coincide.

[Rutherford The Brave]

How is Indian cold?
I get called whitie, white boy, etc... all the time
Should i freak and demand to be called Caucasian



~~~

As far as not beating up someone who slept with your wife
In the old days that could get you killed
I firmly believe that morality is based off the human conscience and soul, not some religion invented by man
I'm not religious and nobody in my immediate family is
Yet I have an extremely strong conscience that eats me alive if I step out of line

Are you serious codie? Being called "indian" to me is like calling an african american the "N" word. You will never know what its like to be called a term that brings up sooo much hate that you feel like gutting the person who called you it.

[Bobby]

Greg, I understand you're concern but I think it'd be best for you and Kodie to take this up in PM to avoid getting this thread off-topic.

[Dolphus Raymond]

Greg, my friend, intent is important. You're the first of "us" I've met personally who is bothered by the term. People mean well. There's no reason to take it as the "n" word...especially coming from Codie, who obviously didn't mean it that way.

I've heard of it but never really learned about it. I'm sorry then I was wrong. Anyways I do think that morals and laws coincide.

I think so, too. I also think we should distinguish religious teachings from morals in general. Morals is a code of conduct relating to right and wrong. A non-religious person can have a code of conduct. :)

Edit: Sorry, I didn't notice the post asking for no more comments on the "I---n" stuff.

[skhuaban]

religion is just there to give people who can't think on a higher plane morals... in my oppinion

[henry827]

laws are based on a social contract in which people give up some freedom to an athority in order to insure protection and order. many laws are based on morality because many laws are meant to protect people, the other laws such as taxes are supposed to support the enforcement of the social contract. sorry if thats confusing i cant think of a better explanation.