Most evil: Hitler vs Stalin

[Sapphire]

I read the other day that people are trying to get the famine caused by Stalin to be classed as an act of genocide. Then I saw the thread about Hitler in TWPR today and it got me thinking. I wondered what people thought about Stalin in comparison to Hitler.

So, which do you think was the more evil dictator?

[Bobby]

Being Jewish I just despise Hitler. He is so much worse on a personal level for me.

[Rutherford The Brave]

Hitler and the whole famine thing was brought upon the people supposedly because the common folk would not feed the russian soldiers

[Sapphire]

I meant the famine in the Ukraine (it was part of the USSR) that Stalin caused in 1932/33. It caused the deaths of about 25 million people.

[Rutherford The Brave]

Thats what I'm refering to.

[Sapphire]

It was because they didn't want to be a part of the USSR and to work on his "collective" farms. He took the wheat that they had grown to feed the army and to sell so that he could better the USSRs industries.

[Zephyr]

Hitler... slaughtered millions of innocent people: Jews, Jehovah's Witnesses, Homosexuals... the list goes on. All in his attempt to create the so-called master race.

They say that had the Holcaust never happened, there'd be about 1 billion more people on earth right now... that's A LOT.

[Sapphire]

Hmm, some interesting points raised here.

I am of the opinion that Stalin was the worst. I know that Hitler killed millions of people but he did look after at least some of the people under his rule. But Stalin didn't care about any of the people in the USSR. He caused over 35 million deaths! In my opinion there is no competition.

[Rutherford The Brave]

the USSR we against him though. He paid them millions to relieve them of their pain. But the barked and fought against them. They were the ones who instigated it not him.

[Sapphire]

Hang on a minute, am a bit confused here lol.

Who was the USSR against? Who instigated what?

[Rutherford The Brave]

Union of Soviet Socialist Republics

[Sapphire]

Yes, I know that is what USSR stands for. I was just confused by what you were saying. Who were they against and what did they instigate?

[Rutherford The Brave]

The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (also known as the USSR or Soviet Union for short) consisted of Russia and surrounding countries that today make up Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Estonia, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova, Russia, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Ukraine, and Uzbekistan.
The USSR was founded in 1924, seven years after the Russian Revolution overthrew the monarchy of the czar, and was dissolved in late 1991.

The Commonwealth of Independent States was a somewhat unsuccessful effort by Russia to keep the USSR together in an economic alliance.

Of the fifteen constituent republics of the USSR, three of these countries declared and were granted independence a few months preceding the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991. The remaining twelve did not become independent until the USSR fell completely on December 26, 1991.


Armenia
Azerbaijan
Belarus
Estonia (September 1991)
Georgia
Kazakhstan
Kyrgyzstan
Latvia (September 1991)
Lithuania (September 1991)
Moldova
Russia
Tajikistan
Turkmenistan
Ukraine
Uzbekistan

http://geography.about.com/od/countryinformation/a/ussr.htm
They were mad because they wanted more land and who stood in their way? Stalin.

[Sapphire]

Stalin was the head of the USSR so if anyone within the USSR spoke out against him they got deported to Gulags (labour camps) or tried and executed. He occupied and overtook those ^ smaller countries you have listed because he wanted a "buffer zone" between him and the capitalist coutries.
The biggest gripe that most of the smaller countries had with being a part of the USSR was to do with communism and his agricultural policy.

[Rutherford The Brave]

Well you are right be he had to overtake the USSR first.

[Sapphire]

Who are you referring to?

If it's Stalin then you are sadly mistaken. He created the USSR in 1924.

[[[chickaroo92]]]

Being Jewish I just despise Hitler. He is so much worse on a personal level for me.
I have to agree with you on this one.
I don't know much about this stalin or whatever its called. But.... Hitler (may his name be erased) was a horrible, horrible person. I don't like him one bit. No matter how "smart" he seemed. Gosh. He killed 6 million Jews... 6 million of my own flesh and blood.
I hope there's never ever another holocaust again.

[Sapphire]

I really don't mean to offend anyone by saying this. I am not making any of this up.

But those of you who are Jewish claim to find Hitler unbearably evil because he persecuted your people. So what about Christians and Muslims? The first massacres (dating back to before the year 1060 when the first peak was reached) against the Jewish people were committed by these people, not the Nazis.

[0=]

I like how most who actually answered the prompt weren't objective at all about it, especially the Jews who are just like I don't know shit about Stalin, but Hitler was worse because I'm Jewish.

[Bobby]

I really don't mean to offend anyone by saying this. I am not making any of this up.

But those of you who are Jewish claim to find Hitler unbearably evil because he persecuted your people. So what about Christians and Muslims? The first massacres (dating back to before the year 1060 when the first peak was reached) against the Jewish people were committed by these people, not the Nazis.

Because this thread isn't about them.

I like how most who actually answered the prompt weren't objective at all about it, especially the Jews who are just like I don't know shit about Stalin, but Hitler was worse because I'm Jewish.

I know plenty about Stalin. Please don't question my knowledge.

[0=]

I know plenty about Stalin. Please don't question my knowledge.

Demonstrate this knowledge in an objective answer then. It's about who was absolutely more evil, not who has a greater personal effect on you.

[Sapphire]

Because this thread isn't about them.

I was talking about generally, not just this thread, and I was only curious as to why Jews (and others for that matter) view Hitler, and this quite often stretches to tarnish the whole of the German population, with such venom but not Christians and Muslims. They did the same thing so it seems a bit odd to me.

I know plenty about Stalin. Please don't question my knowledge.

Hey, relax a bit. He never said anything about your personal knowledge.

[Bobby]

Demonstrate this knowledge in an objective answer then. It's about who was absolutely more evil, not who has a greater personal effect on you.

The topic is "who people THOUGHT was more evil." And I think Hitler is much more evil. I think he is more evil because of the personal effect he had on me. Isn't that the definition of evil? The bad effect someone has on you.

[0=]

That is not the definition of evil.

Morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked.

Personally, I think they were probably about equal. Evil is evil. I also think it's a moot point because who was more evil has no practical or intellectual value.

[Bobby]

Ah...again. Who are we to let the dictionary define our opinions of evil? I base my opinion of evilness on who left more of a bad taste in my mouth. In this case Hitler. That's what this isn't exactly the best debate - everybody judges evil differently.

[Sapphire]

everybody judges evil differently.

Which is why I started this thread.

This was never meant to be a debate. I know who I judge to be more evil and I was curious as to what other people thought.

[0=]

It's more like a grudge thread. I'm Polish, but that doesn't mean I let that be the only factor I consider. Hitler hated Pols almost as much as Jews.

[Dolphus Raymond]

Hitler. His hatred was bigotry; Stalin's was ideological zeal and paranoia.

Ah...again. Who are we to let the dictionary define our opinions of evil? I base my opinion of evilness on who left more of a bad taste in my mouth. In this case Hitler. That's what this isn't exactly the best debate - everybody judges evil differently.

It seems that definition would leave open the possibility of immoral acts that don't directly affect you, not being "evil." Like Stalin...

[Rutherford The Brave]

"Evil" Is an abstract word and has more than one Definetion =0 so don't get all high and mighty on Bobby. Getting to the point, In their minds both these men where not evil. So my question to you is who are we to judge if they were evil or not?

[Bobby]

Hitler. His hatred was bigotry; Stalin's was ideological zeal and paranoia.



It seems that definition would leave open the possibility of immoral acts that don't directly affect you, not being "evil." Like Stalin...


No. I don't think Stalin isn't evil. But the personal reasons behind me disliking Hitler and considering him more evil propel him past Stalin in terms of evilness.

[0=]

"Evil" Is an abstract word and has more than one Definetion =0 so don't get all high and mighty on Bobby.

I realize this. I simply quoted one definition because he gave a definition of evil that basically calls anyone who has no personal effect on you not evil, which would be considered a poor definition by most people.

[Sapphire]

So my question to you is who are we to judge if they were evil or not?

It is human nature to judge. When people hear about the dreadful things they both did then it is impossible not to judge them. Therefore everyone will have an opinion and these opinions will differ from person to person.

[MoveAlong]

I also think it's a moot point because who was more evil has no practical or intellectual value.

what about satisfying the curiosity of an individual? the thread starter has a right to ask this question and you have no right to judge him for being curious.

It's more like a grudge thread. I'm Polish, but that doesn't mean I let that be the only factor I consider. Hitler hated Pols almost as much as Jews.

No. Not everybody answering is Jewish. Therefore, the whole thread cannot be considered a grudge thread.

I don't know much about Stalin. From what I know, Hitler is more evil. And Hitler's deeds are more widely known, so based on popular knowledge, this is what I think. But I don't really care.

[Rutherford The Brave]

I ask you again. What we say isn't going to make those men evil, so I ask you once more why judge. We can say in our minds that they are evil, but does that really make them evil overall or evil in just our minds? They did what they thought was best for their nations, now that doesn't mean I agree with their choices. I'm just stating that they did what they thought was right how does that make them evil?

[0=]

what about satisfying the curiosity of an individual? the thread starter has a right to ask this question and you have no right to judge him for being curious.

I wasn't judging him, I was merely stating what I thought. Also, I have just as much right to judge him as we have to judge Hitler and Stalin.

No. Not everybody answering is Jewish. Therefore, the whole thread cannot be considered a grudge thread.

Many of the answers were from Jews stating they think Hitler was worse, and because of those the general tone of the thread came across as a bunch of people with a grudge.

I don't know much about Stalin. From what I know, Hitler is more evil. And Hitler's deeds are more widely known, so based on popular knowledge, this is what I think. But I don't really care.

You've done a miraculous job of proving my original point :)

[MoveAlong]

You've done a miraculous job of proving my original point :)

your choice of words is oppressive. Sure, I may have proved your point, but I was stating your point in my own explination, because it's what I believe too.

Also, I have just as much right to judge him as we have to judge Hitler and Stalin.

Bobby is alive and both of those other men are dead; plus, those men did unjust things and it just seems easier and fair to judge those men.
but you should respect Bobby.

[0=]

I'm not being critical of or mocking people's opinions, but I am being critical of the way the opinion was formed. Saying you don't know much about Stalin but enough about Hitler to know he was evil and saying Hitler is more evil based on that is like having eaten an apple and only seen an orange and arriving at the conclusion that apples taste better than oranges. It's unsound logic.

[MoveAlong]

although it is illogical we can only judge things based on what we know. that's how the human race has survived these many years; this is an example that could lead to trial and error.

[0=]

At least you admit your line of thinking makes no sense, but you should have left it at that, as your flawed logic has shown itself again. The human race has survived because we do indeed learn by trial and error, so we tried both apples and oranges and found out both were equally good, depending on personal preference.

[MoveAlong]

At least you admit your line of thinking makes no sense, but you should have left it at that.

Now you're insulting me. Yes it makes sense. I believe that Hitler is worse based on what I know.

The human race has survived because we do indeed go by trial and error, so we tried both apples and oranges and found out both were indeed equally good, depending on personal preference.

Another example of trial and error is thinking that you're right before based on what you know, and finding out later that you were wrong. Then you learn. Maybe I need to do that and make this judgement about Hitler.

[Bobby]

Why don't you worry about your own opinions? I'd really not like for you to start any problems.

What I'm saying is that Hitler's actions leave a more bitter taste in my mouth than Stalins. Therefore...personally...IN MY OWN FRICKIN opinion...Hitler is more evil. Stalin is still evil, in my eyes. But because of the "Jewish" aspect, Hitler is more evil to me.

[0=]

Now you're insulting me. Yes it makes sense. I believe that Hitler is worse based on what I know.

I see no need to insult you. You said it yourself; I merely restated it. If it makes sense then prove it. You're still picking the apple you've tasted over the orange you know nothing about.

What I'm saying is that Hitler's actions leave a more bitter taste in my mouth than Stalins. Therefore...personally...IN MY OWN FRICKIN opinion...Hitler is more evil. Stalin is still evil, in my eyes. But because of the "Jewish" aspect, Hitler is more evil to me.

There we go, I just wanted some reasoning behind it.

[Bobby]

And is there something wrong with him doing that? Is he not allowed to have opinions? Atleast he is putting more weight on something he knows instead of picking Stalin and acting ignorant.

[Ryandel]

Hitler hands down for me. As his beliefs are still alive today. Which isn't good in my view. Ill elaborate once I get acces to a computer

[0=]

And is there something wrong with him doing that? Is he not allowed to have opinions? Atleast he is putting more weight on something he knows instead of picking Stalin and acting ignorant.

Actually, the logical choice would be to not have a strong opinion either way because he's unqualified to answer the question due to his ignorance of Stalin. I'll restate: I have no problem with his opinion, just the way he formulated it.

[MoveAlong]

If it makes sense then prove it.

Ok, fine.

Conditions:
-this thread is about people's opinions (pointed out by the original poster)
-a opinion is (dictionary): A personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty

Statement: In my opinion, Hitler is worse, based on what I know.

Reasons this is true: it abides to the conditions.

[Bobby]

No, Zach. You aren't allowed an opinion!

0=, what is your own personal definition of evil?

[0=]

Extreme immorality.

I have no problem with his opinion, just the way he formulated it.

[Rutherford The Brave]

Evil is abstract plus who cares what your definetion is hm? You shouldn't have a problem with the way people formulate their opinions. Because people are entitled to their opinions and you seem to be by-passing that.

[0=]

I'm merely doing him a favor so he doesn't look like an idiot when he turns in a school essay based on fallacious logic.

[Bobby]

Let's try to stay on topic please.

[MoveAlong]

I have no problem with his opinion, just the way he formulated it.

Ok, now I understand. So you don't like that I don't know much about Stalin, and I'm making a quick judgement about Hitler because I know more about Hitler.

I'm sorry that my knowledge annoys you.

[0=]

I'm sorry that my knowledge annoys you.
You speak down to my knowledge about the topic, therefore insulting me and proving my point that you have insulted me.

I have yet to insult you. Show me one blatant example of an insult. I'm just telling you it makes no sense to make a decision in a comparison if you do not know about everything being compared.

[Bobby]

I'm just telling you it makes no sense to make a decision in a comparison if you do not know about everything being compared.

That is in your opinion.

But PLEASE get back on topic. I would rather not have to lock this.

[MoveAlong]

Ok, I understand now.

How are you being insulting? Maybe that isn't the correct word, but you're certainly coming off as harsh. And there's no way for me to prove that you've been harsh, since you see things differently than I do. So I digress :|

I'm just telling you it makes no sense to make a decision in a comparison if you do not know about everything being compared.

It's my opinion, please respect my opinion...

[0=]

That is in your opinion.

That is a fact. If you say you like band A better than band B because you've listened to both bands and decided A is better and your friend says he likes band A better than band B because he's only heard band A, but what he did hear he likes, doesn't your decision make more sense than his? There's nothing wrong with him liking band A, but he is unqualified to say band A is better than band B.

[MoveAlong]

You just aren't getting it. It's my opinion. I have a right to my opinion. Freedom.

Bobby please split the thread if necessary, this is a good debate.

[0=]

I acknowledge your right to your opinion, but you just don't seem to grasp my point.

[Bobby]

This has gone way off topic. I'm locking it. Sorry to the original poster. If you'd like you can repost this and hopefully it won't go as off the rail.

If you'd like to discuss the ability to have opinions and how one person's opinion can be better than someone elses - that belongs in a new thread.

LOCKING