are you born with ocd?

[Yasmine]

is ocd something you're born with, or is it something that you get? there's people who think they have ocd, but really it's their mind over the matter.

[Rutherford The Brave]

OCD is a illness not a genetic type thing, still though some people are born with it an others just get it.

[Antares]

It is not a genetic disorder. However there is a lot of info here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsessive-compulsive_disorder). Umm yeah so tis not a genetic disorder and as far as being born with it some people may be. Some people have the anxious symptoms at birth but I think usually people develop it starting in their teens...dont quote me on that but that is what I am lead to assume so yeah happy reading :D

[Yasmine]

but, you don't have control over whether you have it or not, right?

[Lumo]

It is not a genetic disorder. However there is a lot of info here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsessive-compulsive_disorder). Umm yeah so tis not a genetic disorder and as far as being born with it some people may be. Some people have the anxious symptoms at birth but I think usually people develop it starting in their teens...dont quote me on that but that is what I am lead to assume so yeah happy reading :D

thats exactly what happened with me

[byee]

True OCD, not the stuff people self diagnose themselves with b/c they 'obsess' over things or are just picky, is caused by a biochemical issue in the brain, it's a neurotransmitter problem. So, although true OCD might not always be there, it's cause is most probably some genetic issue that causes the brain to stop secreting the proper neurotransmitters in the proper amount.

True OCD can only be effectively treated with meds to rebalance the neurotransmitters, as well as supoortive and instructional therapy, it can't really be 'controlled' completely by the person.

[Yasmine]

i've had times where i thought i had ocd, but i was really just obsessing over things i don't naturally care about.

[byee]

A lot of people use the term OCD to refer to their thoughts about things, or their behaviors. But, the key is the ability of the person to control those thoughts or behaviors, and also how debilitating it is. True OCD is really impossible to control without meds, the people who have it really are driven by their thoughts and urges, they're overwhelming (and overwhelmed) and usually quite irrational. It's very serious.

[ArtistInNeed]

could i have ocd? i count my steps, and other random things. i like to put colors and words in order. like if i were to put the word "teen" i would run it through my head like a million times as "eent". i have to constantly crack my hands too, its annoying.

[Nihilus]

My sisters OCd started appearing like 1-2 years ago.

[Yasmine]

could i have ocd? i count my steps, and other random things. i like to put colors and words in order. like if i were to put the word "teen" i would run it through my head like a million times as "eent". i have to constantly crack my hands too, its annoying.
if it doesn't interfere with your life, i don't think so. everyone has their own things they like to do.

[Sapphire]

A lot of people use the term OCD to refer to their thoughts about things, or their behaviors. But, the key is the ability of the person to control those thoughts or behaviors, and also how debilitating it is. True OCD is really impossible to control without meds, the people who have it really are driven by their thoughts and urges, they're overwhelming (and overwhelmed) and usually quite irrational. It's very serious.

Actually, there is empirical evidence to contradict the claim that it is "impossible to control without meds". Medication helps alleviate symptoms in most cases, but not all. Different types of therapy have been shown to be just as effective as medication. In some cases meds have been shown to be less effective than therapy.

[byee]

Actually, there is empirical evidence to contradict the claim that it is "impossible to control without meds". Medication helps alleviate symptoms in most cases, but not all. Different types of therapy have been shown to be just as effective as medication. In some cases meds have been shown to be less effective than therapy.

Please provide the 'Empirical' evidence to support your claim.

[Requin]

Aha, dubed by IAMSAM, yes he rules the world!!!!!!!!
I believe that your mind can overide anything, in other words i think that if you want to do something enough you can do it. So if you want to stop staring at computers all day, i think you can. That's the unscientifical explanation as i'm not in the mood for one of those

[Sapphire]

Simpson, H. B. and Liebowitz, M. R. did a study into the effectiveness of CBT or medication (SSRIs) as monotherapies (i.e. not combined) in 2005. They found that for more severe cases of OCD a combination of both was appropriate.

March, J. S. found that CBP (cognitive behavioural psychotherapy) is effective as a monotherapy, or combined with medication, for the treatment of OCD in children and adolescents.

Watson, H. J. and Rees, C. S. found earlier this year that when treating under 19-year olds CBT and medication were effective forms of treatment. CBT had a greater effect size than medication.

EDIT
What does dubed mean?
As far as I can work out it isn't a proper word...

[Sapphire]

could i have ocd? i count my steps, and other random things. i like to put colors and words in order. like if i were to put the word "teen" i would run it through my head like a million times as "eent". i have to constantly crack my hands too, its annoying.

By the sounds of it, no. We all have little quirks and funny things that we like/do.

To have OCD you would have to experience intrusive, obsessive thoughts and compulsive actions.
For example, someone could have intrusive thoughts about their house being broken into and their belongings stolen. So they find themselves compulsively having to double-check and sometimes triple-check that everything is locked before they leave and sometimes even returning to check again.

[byee]

Simpson, H. B. and Liebowitz, M. R. did a study into the effectiveness of CBT or medication (SSRIs) as monotherapies (i.e. not combined) in 2005. They found that for more severe cases of OCD a combination of both was appropriate.

March, J. S. found that CBP (cognitive behavioural psychotherapy) is effective as a monotherapy, or combined with medication, for the treatment of OCD in children and adolescents.

Watson, H. J. and Rees, C. S. found earlier this year that when treating under 19-year olds CBT and medication were effective forms of treatment. CBT had a greater effect size than medication.

EDIT
What does dubed mean?
As far as I can work out it isn't a proper word...

Which Journals are these from?

You have a tendency to confuse your own opinion for fact, I've mentioned this to you elsewhere, and you continue to state your beliefs very strongly as if they were factual, and I think you confuse the two. Without knowing these particular sources or the methodology used, it is impossible to determine the accuracy of these results. So, they merely support your preconceived opinion on this matter. This is misleading to others, and I think it would be better if your level of self assurance was a bit more in line with your actual grasp of the facts.

[Sapphire]

References (in order):
Simpson, H., & Liebowitz, M. (2005). Combining Pharmacotherapy and Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy in the Treatment of OCD. Concepts and controversies in obsessive-compulsive disorder (pp. 359-376). New York, NY, US: Springer Science + Business Media. Retrieved July 30, 2008, from PsycINFO database.

March, J. (1995, January). Cognitive-behavioral psychotherapy for children and adolescents with OCD: A review and recommendations for treatment. Journal of the American Academy of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry, 34(1), 7-18. Retrieved July 30, 2008, from PsycINFO database.

Watson, H., & Rees, C. (2008, May). Meta-analysis of randomized, controlled treatment trials for pediatric obsessive-compulsive disorder. Journal of Child Psychology & Psychiatry, 49(5), 489-498. Retrieved July 30, 2008, doi:10.1111/j.1469-7610.2007.01875.x

Please tell me what makes your opinion so superior on this topic?
Do you have evidence to support your view?

I would be interested in reading them because it actually seems to me that you confuse your personal opinion with fact.

EDIT
Oh, forgot to add this. All of these findings have been significant. The chances of them being down to chance are lower than 2%.

[byee]

References (in order):
Simpson, H., & Liebowitz, M. (2005). Combining Pharmacotherapy and Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy in the Treatment of OCD. Concepts and controversies in obsessive-compulsive disorder (pp. 359-376). New York, NY, US: Springer Science + Business Media. Retrieved July 30, 2008, from PsycINFO database.

March, J. (1995, January). Cognitive-behavioral psychotherapy for children and adolescents with OCD: A review and recommendations for treatment. Journal of the American Academy of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry, 34(1), 7-18. Retrieved July 30, 2008, from PsycINFO database.

Watson, H., & Rees, C. (2008, May). Meta-analysis of randomized, controlled treatment trials for pediatric obsessive-compulsive disorder. Journal of Child Psychology & Psychiatry, 49(5), 489-498. Retrieved July 30, 2008, doi:10.1111/j.1469-7610.2007.01875.x

Please tell me what makes your opinion so superior on this topic?
Do you have evidence to support your view?

I would be interested in reading them because it actually seems to me that you confuse your personal opinion with fact.

EDIT
Oh, forgot to add this. All of these findings have been significant. The chances of them being down to chance are lower than 2%.

I appreciate this information, but since I cannot access the original versions I still cannot assess the credibility of these results. How were the samples chosen?, how was the diagnosis of OCD derived?, what instruments were used to determine 'improvement'? Citing journals as references or the statistical significance doesn't necessarily answer these important questions, you should know that. Something having a 2% statistical error variance is only valid if the subjects were properly selected in the first place!

If you were to talk with professionals who are trained to diagnose and treat OCD, what you'd hear is that OCD, like many disorders, occurs on a continuum, that the symptoms go from 'mild' to 'severe'. And as the symptoms become more significant, as they interfere more with ADL's, that medication becomes the more valuable tool in treatment. You cannot 'talk' someone out of something like OCD that is basically biologically determined, it would be like talking someone out of having a seizure. I suspect those that respond to therapy as well as meds probably had a more mild form, or OCD-like features.

CBT (or any other form of properly administered psychotherapy), is a valuable tool in treatment, regardless of how serious the disorder is. However, only those who have never actually worked with severe OCD (properly diagnosed, btw) would say that CBT alone is as effective as medication. Go find a professional who has some experience with this and ask them.

Perhaps what I'm also responding to is more personal, you're entirely too confrontational and nasty for my tastes, I don't do well with arrogance in the absence of excellence, in the very short time you've been here what i've read from you confirms the former without having the benefit of the latter. Perhaps as you're here more that might change. But until then, you might consider toning your attitude down and tucking your ego in a bit, at least around me. We're here to help others, not confront eachother. You are entitled to share an opinion with the OP, it is their choice who to believe.

Again, should you need to discuss this further, do it by PM, not here. But hopefully not.

[Sapphire]

I appreciate this information, but since I cannot access the original versions I still cannot assess the credibility of these results. How were the samples chosen?, how was the diagnosis of OCD derived?, what instruments were used to determine 'improvement'? Citing journals as references or the statistical significance doesn't necessarily answer these important questions, you should know that. Something having a 2% statistical error variance is only valid if the subjects were properly selected in the first place!The way these are done (as far as I am aware) is the psychologists contact hospitals/doctors surgeries etc and enquire whether they have any patients who meet their criteria. These people are then contacted and asked if they would mind participating.
I cannot access the full articles or book so these will have to suffice.

Simpson & Liebowitz:
(from the chapter) Two monotherapies are efficacious for adults with OCD: pharmacotherapy with serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SRIs, ie, clomipramine and the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors) and cognitive-behavioral therapy (CBT) consisting of exposure and response prevention (ERP). Expert consensus treatment guidelines for adults with OCD (March, Frances, Carpenter, & Kahn, 1997) recommend ERP monotherapy be offered to every OCD patient when available and that it be the first treatment used with patients with milder OCD. Serotonin reuptake inhibitor monotherapy or SRI + ERP treatment is recommended for adults with more severe OCD. In this chapter, we examine data supporting the premise that combining SRI and ERP treatment is more effective than either treatment alone. We conclude that for adults with OCD, combination therapy (SRI + ERP) is warranted in specific clinical situations. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2007 APA)

March:
Reviews 32 studies (published 1967-1994) on cognitive-behavioral psychotherapy (CBP) for obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD) in children and adolescents, addressing empirical documentation, acceptability of treatment, and exportability, among other issues. Despite differences in terminology and theoretical framework, all but 1 showed some benefit for CBP interventions. Graded exposure and response prevention form the core of treatment; anxiety management training and OCD-specific family interventions may play an adjunctive role. Clinical and emerging empirical evidence suggest that CBP, alone or in combination with pharmacotherapy, is an effective treatment for OCD in children and adolescents. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2007 APA)

Watson & Rees:
Objective: To conduct a meta-analysis on randomized, controlled treatment trials of pediatric obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD). Method: Studies were included if they employed randomized, controlled methodology and treated young people (19 years or under) with OCD. A comprehensive literature search identified 13 RCTs containing 10 pharmacotherapy to control comparisons ( N = 1016) and five cognitive-behavioral therapy (CBT) to control comparisons ( N = 161). Results: Random effects modeling yielded statistically significant pooled effect size (ES) estimates for pharmacotherapy (ES = .48, 95% CI = .36 to .61, p < .00001) and CBT (ES = 1.45, 95% CI = .68 to 2.22, p = .002). The results were robust to publication bias. Conclusions: This is the first meta-analysis of treatment RCTs for pediatric OCD. CBT and pharmacotherapy were the only treatments effective beyond control in alleviating OCD symptoms. CBT showed a greater ES than pharmacotherapy. Previous meta-analyses that included uncontrolled trials exaggerated the efficacy of both treatments. [ABSTRACT FROM AUTHOR]


If you were to talk with professionals who are trained to diagnose and treat OCD, what you'd hear is that OCD, like many disorders, occurs on a continuum, that the symptoms go from 'mild' to 'severe'. And as the symptoms become more significant, as they interfere more with ADL's, that medication becomes the more valuable tool in treatment. You cannot 'talk' someone out of something like OCD that is basically biologically determined, it would be like talking someone out of having a seizure. I suspect those that respond to therapy as well as meds probably had a more mild form, or OCD-like features.

I never said that someone could be "talked out of" OCD. CBT is a combined approach to therapy and addresses cognitive (thoughts) and behavioural modification.
No one can be sure whether it is or isn't fundamentally biological. There is no conclusive evidence to say that biochemical imbalances cause all cases of OCD. It could be an effect of OCD for all anyone knows.
Also, if you care to read one of my previous posts (and the abstracts above) you can clearly see that it is evident that in severe cases a combined approach is effective. Not just medication. This surely makes sense seeing as both forms of treatment help alleviate symptoms that combining them would help that bit more.

CBT (or any other form of properly administered psychotherapy), is a valuable tool in treatment, regardless of how serious the disorder is. However, only those who have never actually worked with severe OCD (properly diagnosed, btw) would say that CBT alone is as effective as medication. Go find a professional who has some experience with this and ask them.
I have quoted and referenced the published work of qualified professionals. I have shown you the support for the statements I have made.

Where is your evidence that it is "basically biological" and "impossible to treat without medication"? Where are the professionals publishing saying these things?

Perhaps what I'm also responding to is more personal, you're entirely too confrontational and nasty for my tastes, I don't do well with arrogance in the absence of excellence, in the very short time you've been here what i've read from you confirms the former without having the benefit of the latter. Perhaps as you're here more that might change. But until then, you might consider toning your attitude down and tucking your ego in a bit, at least around me. We're here to help others, not confront eachother. You are entitled to share an opinion with the OP, it is their choice who to believe.
I have not been as confrontational, gotten personal or started insulting you as you have towards me. You have, however, demanded to see the evidence of which I spoke and then claimed that wasn't enough. You demanded references, so I got you them. But they weren't good enough either so you demanded more information which I have given you. You have called me names, made slurs against my character and acted as if I am an ignorant child trying to join in an adults coversation.

[antimonic]

Iamsam, you obviously follow the medical model of psychology, whereas dig it deeper follows a more psychological model, yes some cases have reported that ocd was caused by neurochemical imbalances etc, however as far as it goes you are the one who has not provided any empirical evidence, and to be perfectly honest to state that the sources dig it deeper has gotten her information from is for any reason "incorrect" or invalid, is very ignorant. compare your position with theirs, you are a 15 year old, the researchers are not lol they have a considerably larger basis of knowledge in their subject area then you do and most importantly, they follow a different model then you do (some do).

yes sampling size/ methods are important, though you have no reason to believe that they were not appropriate from what dig it deeper has given you. and why would the possible limitations of these studies be present in the ones that support psychological theories and not medical? they wouldn’t, both fields are scientific and follow scientific approaches to investigating this anxiety disorder. like many things there are a number of causes, biochemical factors are not enough as they are too reductionist and tend to ignore other factors and simple psychological factors. psychological models also are limited as they are more holistic approaches and may be looking too broadly when the cause is smaller, and also ignore biological factors.

you also need to take it easy, dig it deeper doesnt seem to be starting an argument you are the one who seems to be very challenging and trying to force your opinions (which YOU seem to have confused with facts from what i have read) down her throat. its a small debate, neither of you is wrong, not unless one of you states that their side is the correct and the other isnt.

Was just wondering, how would a follower of the medical model explain cases where the patient has the symptoms of ocd but has no imbalances or abnormal neurotransmitter activity/levels? just wondering :)

[byee]

Iamsam, you obviously follow the medical model of psychology, whereas dig it deeper follows a more psychological model, yes some cases have reported that ocd was caused by neurochemical imbalances etc, however as far as it goes you are the one who has not provided any empirical evidence, and to be perfectly honest to state that the sources dig it deeper has gotten her information from is for any reason "incorrect" or invalid, is very ignorant. compare your position with theirs, you are a 15 year old, the researchers are not lol they have a considerably larger basis of knowledge in their subject area then you do and most importantly, they follow a different model then you do (some do).

yes sampling size/ methods are important, though you have no reason to believe that they were not appropriate from what dig it deeper has given you. and why would the possible limitations of these studies be present in the ones that support psychological theories and not medical? they wouldn’t, both fields are scientific and follow scientific approaches to investigating this anxiety disorder. like many things there are a number of causes, biochemical factors are not enough as they are too reductionist and tend to ignore other factors and simple psychological factors. psychological models also are limited as they are more holistic approaches and may be looking too broadly when the cause is smaller, and also ignore biological factors.

you also need to take it easy, dig it deeper doesnt seem to be starting an argument you are the one who seems to be very challenging and trying to force your opinions (which YOU seem to have confused with facts from what i have read) down her throat. its a small debate, neither of you is wrong, not unless one of you states that their side is the correct and the other isnt.

Was just wondering, how would a follower of the medical model explain cases where the patient has the symptoms of ocd but has no imbalances or abnormal neurotransmitter activity/levels? just wondering :)


Nice try, registering with another account here. Living up to your nick of digging yourself in deeper. Methinks your issue is that you cannot tolerate a difference of opinion. Smells like narcissism to me.

I don't think that you're following a 'Psychological model', I think the model you accept fits more neatly into your own need to see yourself a certain way. My way of understanding this is based on a more thorough understanding of OCD, including having spoken to those who treat it and teach about it at the Uni level, as well as my own studies.

The studies you quote might have found the results you favor, which is perhaps why you're quoting them in the first place. However, I cannot comment on the methdology used, which is really crucial. How they identified the patient samples, what the criteria for OCD was, is important, what instruments were used to determine this? What instruments/criteria were used to determine the treatment outcomes? Was the severity of OCD taken into consideration or even identified in determining which treatment group the sample should be in? How about the statistical analyses? Which were used, and why? Looking only at the conclusion and not the methodology missed the important opportunity to actually judge the worth of the entire study, regardless of one's personal predisposition .

lastly, it is worthwhile to discuss the results of any clinical study with the practitioners in the field who work with the issue at hand on a daily basis. Most good studies are not only 'reliable', producing the same results in repeated study, but also practical, that the result should be the same in clinical trial. As I said before, you've got the first half here, looking up the studies that support your opinions, now go find some practitioners in the real world and see if their clinical experience replicates these studies. I'm not dismissing the veracity of your claims about CBT, I am saying that it's more nuanced, that outcome is more influenced by severity of OCD.

Again, those professionals who work with OCD, esp. adolescent onset, will tell you that in the moderate to severe category, properly diagnosed!, medication provides the best outcome. Therapy is a good adjunct, but the current thinking is that moderate to severe OCD is a biochemical issue.

It's unfortunate your own preconceived ideas (or personality issues) prevent you from accepting this, which is why I suggest that you find some qualified professionals to ask.

Sometimes, there's no substitute for hands on clinical experience.

[antimonic]

ok firstly, my name is abs, im new here and I am not dig it deeper loll if you don’t believe me you can go on www.enotalone.com and see my profile, im not someone else lol seriously, that’s a lil cocky but anyway.

you really need not tell me about how to carry out a scientific experiment, for your information I am a Cambridge undergraduate studying psychology in my first year, I have spent near to 9 months working with clinical psychologists and counselling psychologists and before that psychiatrists in which my father has now retired from a job at the royal college of psychiatrists, so I understood how the three fields differed and have made my choice with psychology. See now to say that evidence is being looked for by dig to support HER findings is sort of what you asked her to do? lol seriously, you are very cocky for someone who isn’t even at A level stage (high school if your in America) yeah fine you’ve spoken to some qualified practitioners but by the sounds of it only psychiatrists or maybe clinical psychologists as well, who both follow medical models believing psychological illnesses to have a biological basis. to think that I haven’t spoken to or questioned incredibly about anxiety disorders such as ocd and phobias (phobias of which btw when treatment undergoes a behavioural model results in roughly 90% success rate as opposed to medication) is a gross understatement, im sorry but I have studied these disorders and have a vast knowledge in my subject area, and not to be big headed but I have to have to have gotten into Cambridge lol and severity of ocd yes has an effect and some treatments are only necessary depending on the severity, needless to say, I did not say medication is not effective, im arguing the point that no it does not have a purely biological basis, which you keep saying. There have been a number of cases where there has been normal neurotransmitter and other biochemical balances and activity (measured using a vast array of clinical methods not by the psychologists but by qualified practitioners before you say). Which you have still yet to answer :)

and of course your supposed to evaluate research studies, there is no flawless research study, and to think that psychology studies are any more flawed then medical is purely ignorant, both are scientific so follow very similar methodologies, similar methods of sampling, objectifying etc. . . and simply put, had the study been very badly done and suffers huge limitations to the point where they have committed type one or even type two errors (you can Google them if you don’t know what they are :)) then they would not be published into any decent journals, which by the looks of it, dig it deeper has gotten her sources from the very journals published at my university and some other very highly respectable universities.

Now to say that dig does not follow a more psychological model again is very delusional! ofc she follows a psychological model, she is saying that it does not have a biological basis and that there is EMPIRICAL evidence (which Im sorry, but she has provided, regardless of what you think) to support her claim, just like you asked her to do, and now you criticise that she looked for evidence to support her claim? Seriously, reach any further and your arm will stretch lol

And you tell her to find qualified professionals to ask? Ok so you have asked them yes, but so far I am more "qualified" then you in studying psychological disorders, and having received near enough to straight 85% marks on a number of reports, those of which include reports on anxiety disorders, I think I would know what I am talking about. Having just asked my father, which is what you told her to do, now I am doing it lol, a fully qualified and still practising psychiatrist, has also agreed that of course it does not have a purely biological basis, no psychological disorder has a purely biological basis, otherwise other methods of treatment would be obsolete! lol if you would like I can also call the doctor I spent my last work experience with since I built a good rapport with them? im sure they will support these claims hehe

seriously, you need to stop being very narrow minded, simply put, there are studies that show that ocd does not have a purely biological basis and psychological treatments have proven very effective on severely anxious participants, and there have also been studies to show the same but for medical treatments. So to say that it has a purely biological (medical) basis, wouldn’t be answering why psychological treatments work?

btw, your level of study seems impressive, but seriously, I can safely say with my background I have had significantly larger experience in the field of psychology, am more qualified then you and have also near enough hassled qualified practitioners in the field on anxiety disorders in general and then specifically ocd and phobias (as required by me previous A level exam board) including my father.

now please answer my question, how would you, an obvious biological reductionist, explain cases where the sufferer does not have a serotonin deficiency, high levels of dopamine, no medical background of the disorder, no abnormalities in neurotransmitter levels shown by PET scans and shows no increased activity in the frontal lobe when showing active symptoms? And what would a psychiatrist do? You can go ask your qualified practitioners 

Btw, even IF it had a biological basis, medication treats symptoms yes, but not the cause, MEDICAL STUDIES have shown a return of the symptoms with respect to a halt of the prescribed medication.

[foof1]

It's something that developes over time.

[antimonic]

It's something that developes over time.

yup :) finally someone with some common sense! :P

[trilobite]

im 12 and just last year in november i started feeling weird i had read something on gay and now even though a month ago i had a feeling that i liked a girl i knew since i was six and dismissed it so i didnt ruin the friendship and i also liked a girl that helped me alot back in 5th grade but im shy and didnt say i liked her because im the dork in the class but now im scared im not going to be able to have my dream of a wife and kids of mine and her dna do u think i have ocd i even was told by my mom that a girl that i know likes me that i didnt know liked me but even though i know she likes me and i kinda like her i still cant get this thought out of my head

[canadaski]

Nope, OCD is something that results from built up anxiety. It is in fact not really a disorder by itself but a symptom of anxiety disorder.

[ImCoolBeans]

Jeez, 4 year bump. Please don't bump old threads... :locked: