This one goes out to the Christians ... ?

[LifeIsMyJoke]

Alrighty, before I post this I don't mean to disrespect the enormity of the Christianity religion, nor the Catholics, or anybody else who may take offence - thats not my intention. I'm actually atheistic, which many people frown upon.

My family is kind of religious, attends church, without me or my brother. The reasons I don't see how there can be a God are numerous, but here are the Top 3:

3) If there was a God, and you followed the Bible's version of events, Adam and Eve, two white people started the human race by making love, and thus making us all children of Adam and Eve. That being said, where did the black people come into this? IF Adam and Eve were both white ... how did we get coloured people, of so many races?

2) The Bible is meant to be the "Word of God" - yet it wasn't written by him, so whoever wrote it must have been telling a little white lie somewhere along the line. Also, I don't understand how when Science tells us the Earth is 4.6 billion years old, and humans only ... A couple of hundred thousand at most (primitive forms of human too) ... And God created the Earth in 7 days, people come in that time frame too. Yet Science tells us people weren't around in around 4.55 billion years of the Earths existence. I still fail to comprehend that.

1) If there was a God ... Where is he now? Children are dying in Africa of starvation, Priests are molesting Prior Boys. And personally, I have never sinned, I dont drink, I dont smoke (I have had sex before marriage, but never out of pressure or anything) nor have I ever stolen anything, or committed any serious crimes. And what do I get? Diabetes, with a lot of complications, when I was 11 years old. My representative sporting career has been in tatters because of injury, and my little brother has actually threatened to kill himself because of events in his life.

So thats my ramble ... If there is a God, where is he now?

[Gumleaf]

oh, this could get me into a big arguement. i'm not going to argue your points but just simply say what i think:

3. that is something i have trouble comprehending too. where did black people come from and asian people and pacific islanders, etc. i don't know the answer and i don't know anyone who does.

2. well as you would know the bible is split into 2 parts. the old and new testiments. the old testiment is mainly written by followers of God and tells their stories like a history or timeline of events that happened during the times prior to the birth of Christ. the new testiment starts with a similar history of the life of Jesus Christ and then moves into a guide to how we should live our lives (although parts from the old testiment also cover this) and of course ends with how the world as weknow it will end as a result of the sinning nature of the human race.

1. believe it or not God is there and he hates to see his people suffer. but, the suffering we experience is mainly due to the role over of a human lifetime of sin. you say you haven't sinned? you have to be kidding! so you have never lied ever? you have never said a bad word about anyone? when it comes to the crunch we all sin, but by asking for forgiveness from God, we can get to know him better too and have a life long relationship with him.

[*Dissident*]

How can genocide, disease, starvation, rape, torture, etc be considered a just repayment of sins, when most of the people undergoing such actions have sinned far less than many in America and in the "Civilized World"? You can't possibly say that they deserve it. Babies and children dying of murder and disease and hunger? Little girls being raped? Millions dead from AIDS? seriously.

[0=]

Why even bother arguing the point? Nothing ever comes of it.

[Mzor203]

Oh, let them have their little squabbles. It's always fun to watch.

[The Batman]

3) The bible doesn't say if Adam and eve are white or black it's just an assumption and if you really want to get technical Moses and the other Hebrews were actually African.

2)The length of a day is described in length by us not god so those 7 days in heavenly time could be billions years it just depends on how literal you take the bible.

1)We suffer for a reason think about it, would you be the same person today if you have never gone through anything. We get stronger from all of this pain and hard times. Think about your brother even though he is going through this I guarantee you when its all over he'll be an inspiration to kids all over the world if he uses this help out the world. Instead of thinking about how we suffer think of the outcome from it.

I believe in God but I don't attend church as much as I use to.

[Zephyr]

I am Atheist myself with a religious family, though I do believe that many of the lessons that can be found in the new testament are good terms to live your life by. I'm not defending Christianity, by all means, but these are the best that I cancome up with for answers...

1) Genetic Mutation/Geographical Diversity: Notice that the closer to the equator, the darker the skin and vice versa, so after millions of years, man kind has adapted to their geographical surroundings.

2) As Thomas said, it depends on how literally you take the Bible.

3) Life isn't perfect... there has to be suffering and pain so that we know good from evil.

My reason for being Atheist can be sumed up in a single question...
Who made God?
Though there are many other reasons, this question is always the one that I come back to.

[Rutherford The Brave]

You realize that the catholic church is church full of fat sweaty hypocritical priests. Im sorry for the rant but, its just so stupid to listen to them go on and on about abstinance till marraige. Then they go and rape a little boy....

[Atonement]

3) People with colored skins are adapted over millions of years from where they have come and gone. Which is why skins are related to where a persons heritidge is. Adam and Eve would have been rather tan and 'middle-eastern'.

2) The Bible was written by the direct word of God, to men, to pass along their fellow men.

1) Okay, I am pulling the bullshit card. By religious text, all people sin. From the moment a baby is born, it greeds. SIN! We sin without actually doing anything! We are all sinners and there is no one to avoid that fact. Because we are all sinners, we have free will, and this free will is what screws everyone else up. Sure, God could automatically fix everything and make it perfect, but what would we learn. God wants us to learn and to grow as his children. And is a parent a good parent if they do everything for their children and they never learn? No. That is why.

[Mzor203]

2) The Bible was written by the direct word of God, to men, to pass along their fellow men.




You know, thinking about this, how do you know the people who were writing this stuff weren't high or drunk at the time they were doing so? You don't know. So you really can't take the bible's word for anything.

[Atonement]

I take the Bible's word by faith. Faith that it is truth. Faith, that God has saved my life. This is all faith. That is RELIGION! Religion comes from the word 'religio' which means to bind, connect. Faith is means of connecting to your devine being. So do I know for fact that you believe in the word of the Bible? No. I cannot force that upon you. For I cannot create your faith. But, that is what faith is. A connection to God. I have faith that the Bible is the word of God. I know this from experience.

So, honestly, I don't give a shit if you have faith inthe Bible. But I do and that is what religion is. So, atheism, makes pure sense to me. Because atheism is without faith. This is how I know, that the Bible is the direct word from God.

[Antares]

Hey you guys. We are NOT here to attack peoples beliefs. If I catch anyone attacking someones beliefs I will infract them and lock this threads. Please believe because soem comments are really close to doing so.

Thanks okay continue your convo.

[LifeIsMyJoke]

1. believe it or not God is there and he hates to see his people suffer. but, the suffering we experience is mainly due to the role over of a human lifetime of sin. you say you haven't sinned? you have to be kidding! so you have never lied ever? you have never said a bad word about anyone? when it comes to the crunch we all sin, but by asking for forgiveness from God, we can get to know him better too and have a life long relationship with him.

Hey mate. Yeah I just made this post because I was curious on this matter. Isn't sinning technically too easy? If God is our Father, as is beleived, isn't he being a bit strict, if a mere, tiny little lie is a sin that can condemn you to hell?

Isn't it a slight over-reaction, some of the worlds problems, because of some of the things people have done, i.e. eating an apple off a tree.

3) The bible doesn't say if Adam and eve are white or black it's just an assumption and if you really want to get technical Moses and the other Hebrews were actually African.

2)The length of a day is described in length by us not god so those 7 days in heavenly time could be billions years it just depends on how literal you take the bible.

1)We suffer for a reason think about it, would you be the same person today if you have never gone through anything. We get stronger from all of this pain and hard times. Think about your brother even though he is going through this I guarantee you when its all over he'll be an inspiration to kids all over the world if he uses this help out the world. Instead of thinking about how we suffer think of the outcome from it.

I believe in God but I don't attend church as much as I use to.

Thats an awesome post Darkwing, thanks, especially number 2, that actually clears that up for me believe it or not. Number 1 I'm still unsure about, but I'm sure thats why I'm atheistic, not Christian =]

3) Sure, God could automatically fix everything and make it perfect, but what would we learn. God wants us to learn and to grow as his children. And is a parent a good parent if they do everything for their children and they never learn? No. That is why.

No, but a parent is a good parent if they look after their children. Is a lifetime of torture a fair way to teach someone something, especially if they die at the end of it!!

Hey you guys. We are NOT here to attack peoples beliefs. If I catch anyone attacking someones beliefs I will infract them and lock this threads. Please believe because soem comments are really close to doing so.

Thanks okay continue your convo.

Thanks Neptune man, I'm not having a go at anyones faith, as I mentioned, I just wanted to hear the point of view from the other side as to these questions I've never quite understood the answers too.

[Antares]

I know. It wasn't you per say I am just giving out a warning because these threads typically get heated so just to make sure everyone is thinking about what they are saying....so yeah.

Personally I think it is kinda stupid.
I used to go to church and I used to see people emotions go awry and people fall out and stuff but it just doesn't make any sense. So I am agnostic. I don't know what is out ther ebtuI know there is something. Not neccessarily god though...

[The Batman]

The main thing about the bible is that people misinterpret it all the time and most of the time it's just to confirm their beliefs. I really do believe that all of this suffering that we go through will turn out for the better in the end. I've gone through some much shit in my life and I'm still going through it but I wouldn't change it because I am a better person because of it. Before my life started going downhill I was bully and a mean one at that I would fight boys or girls cause I didn't care, but now I'm couldn't hurt a fly and it breaks my heart to see people suffer. Do you get where I'm going?

[theOperaGhost]

I have faith in God and the Bible. When people say that religion is like made up or something, I don't disagree, I really couldn't tell you if it is real or not. But, I also can't tell you if anything in science is real. Take atoms for example. I've never seen one. How do I know that someone didn't just get high and make it all up. I know everything is made up of something, but I'm just trying to make a point. How do I know anything in science isn't just made up bullshit? Religion is the same. I don't know if it's real or not, but I believe it, just like I believe science.

I agree with Addison's answer for skin color. It's adaption. People make adaptions over hundreds of years.

All of the answers seem to be about the same for day length, and I agree with them.

As for the suffering. Have you ever heard of Noah? People suffer for sins. Everyone sins. Addison had a good answer for that, so I'll just point that out.

[The Batman]

Actually according to the bible babies don't sin infact they automatically go to heaven because they don't know any better.

[japanman]

im sry you think God is just gonna come down and helps thats totaly dumb I mean hes god come on. If you were god and you saw wat you created killing itself then why try.

And also i think the bible isnt accurate but it teaches morals god must have some ow manifested the universe thus creating earth thus creating us thus creating war.

So basicaly if you dont help ppl who will god wont he may give a tiny push but thats it. I mean if go helped us we would be dependent on him if he doesnt help us we get angry at him he just gives us help.

So help ppl if you dont no one will.

Im sry if i came off wrong but thats the best i could do.

[LifeIsMyJoke]

I have faith in God and the Bible. When people say that religion is like made up or something, I don't disagree, I really couldn't tell you if it is real or not. But, I also can't tell you if anything in science is real. Take atoms for example. I've never seen one. How do I know that someone didn't just get high and make it all up. I know everything is made up of something, but I'm just trying to make a point. How do I know anything in science isn't just made up bullshit? Religion is the same. I don't know if it's real or not, but I believe it, just like I believe science.

I agree with Addison's answer for skin color. It's adaption. People make adaptions over hundreds of years.

All of the answers seem to be about the same for day length, and I agree with them.

As for the suffering. Have you ever heard of Noah? People suffer for sins. Everyone sins. Addison had a good answer for that, so I'll just point that out.

People adapt over thousands of years, not really hundreds, although there are some adaptations in height, etc etc. But not all the human race is like Michael Jackson, mostly adaptations occur when necessary for survival. Yet white people can live comfortably in "black" environment, so I'm not sure thats it.

But all your answers are very good, and actually clarifying alot of blanks for me, so thankyou and keep it up.

The main thing about the bible is that people misinterpret it all the time and most of the time it's just to confirm their beliefs. I really do believe that all of this suffering that we go through will turn out for the better in the end. I've gone through some much shit in my life and I'm still going through it but I wouldn't change it because I am a better person because of it. Before my life started going downhill I was bully and a mean one at that I would fight boys or girls cause I didn't care, but now I'm couldn't hurt a fly and it breaks my heart to see people suffer. Do you get where I'm going?

I get where you are going, and I 100% respect it, but the thing is ... For what I have gone through, am I a better person? Am I a good person? I mean my life has been fairly cruisy, more ups than downs for the most part.

My little bro, on the other hand, who I care about more than I care about myself, has had a terrible upbringing into life, and I can't help but think about the whole religion thing, why God would do this to such an innocent being.

[Gumleaf]

firstly to answer LifeIsMyJoke's question. God made the world perfect without sin, which includes every kind of sin you can think of. so when you say that God is too strict, i don't think so if things were made perfect and sin free to start with.

now this is the last thing i'l say here. everyone is entitled to their own beliefs. i happen to be a christian and take the christian values and beliefs seriously. i don't pretend to know all the answers to your questions, but that doesn't mean that my beliefs are wrong or unfounded. i'm happy to accept the beliefs of everyone whether i agree with them or not. there is nothing i would love more then for everyone to be a christian, but i know that will never happen and i respect everyone for their beliefs. i will always stick up for my beliefs, but i will never rubbish anyone elses.

[Hyper]

firstly to answer LifeIsMyJoke's question. God made the world perfect without sin, which includes every kind of sin you can think of. so when you say that God is too strict, i don't think so if things were made perfect and sin free to start with.

now this is the last thing i'l say here. everyone is entitled to their own beliefs. i happen to be a christian and take the christian values and beliefs seriously. i don't pretend to know all the answers to your questions, but that doesn't mean that my beliefs are wrong or unfounded. i'm happy to accept the beliefs of everyone whether i agree with them or not. there is nothing i would love more then for everyone to be a christian, but i know that will never happen and i respect everyone for their beliefs. i will always stick up for my beliefs, but i will never rubbish anyone elses.


Now that is worth rep :D

The main thing that irritates me in all religion related debates is the group of people who aim to disprove and destroy a religion.. I find it be amazingly arrogant & immature.

Not saying this happened here but it will always happen in a religion debate that goes on for a dozen pages or more.

But yeah the quote sums it up really nice. Accept or tolerate if you don't like it ignore it.

If you have questions thats fine. I hope someone who has properly read the bible and understands christianity as a religion can answer here, I can't say I've read the bible well enough and I am not a Christian.

However what I can say is that the bible is a book that will be understood differently by anyone who reads it no matter how many times they read it.

[Rutherford The Brave]

The main reason why I get heated is simply because my religion teacher told me I have no place on this world because Im polytheistic...

[Hyper]

The main reason why I get heated is simply because my religion teacher told me I have no place on this world because Im polytheistic...

Then your religion teacher would irritate me

[george]

No, but a parent is a good parent if they look after their children. Is a lifetime of torture a fair way to teach someone something, especially if they die at the end of it!!
But what can be justified as "good"? In Hitler's eyes, he was doing a "good" thing. But thats another debate :D

[Techno Monster]

Alrighty, before I post this I don't mean to disrespect the enormity of the Christianity religion, nor the Catholics, or anybody else who may take offence - thats not my intention. I'm actually atheistic, which many people frown upon.

My family is kind of religious, attends church, without me or my brother. The reasons I don't see how there can be a God are numerous, but here are the Top 3:

3) If there was a God, and you followed the Bible's version of events, Adam and Eve, two white people started the human race by making love, and thus making us all children of Adam and Eve. That being said, where did the black people come into this? IF Adam and Eve were both white ... how did we get coloured people, of so many races?

2) The Bible is meant to be the "Word of God" - yet it wasn't written by him, so whoever wrote it must have been telling a little white lie somewhere along the line. Also, I don't understand how when Science tells us the Earth is 4.6 billion years old, and humans only ... A couple of hundred thousand at most (primitive forms of human too) ... And God created the Earth in 7 days, people come in that time frame too. Yet Science tells us people weren't around in around 4.55 billion years of the Earths existence. I still fail to comprehend that.

1) If there was a God ... Where is he now? Children are dying in Africa of starvation, Priests are molesting Prior Boys. And personally, I have never sinned, I dont drink, I dont smoke (I have had sex before marriage, but never out of pressure or anything) nor have I ever stolen anything, or committed any serious crimes. And what do I get? Diabetes, with a lot of complications, when I was 11 years old. My representative sporting career has been in tatters because of injury, and my little brother has actually threatened to kill himself because of events in his life.

So thats my ramble ... If there is a God, where is he now?



And that, my friend, is the reason I went Wiccan.

[LifeIsMyJoke]

But what can be justified as "good"? In Hitler's eyes, he was doing a "good" thing. But thats another debate :D

True, but yeah that is another debate. And I wouldn't side against you on that one!!

I guess I defined "good" as 'the best possible method of life' in a sense.

Now that is worth rep :D

The main thing that irritates me in all religion related debates is the group of people who aim to disprove and destroy a religion.. I find it be amazingly arrogant & immature.

Hey man, as I said, I'm not attempting to diss the Christianity religion, seeings half my family are Christians.

I'm just ... curious, more than anything.

The main reason why I get heated is simply because my religion teacher told me I have no place on this world because Im polytheistic...


Thats a terrible comment - my Scripture teacher told me I wasn't worth as much as someone who was religious, and he got both of us out the front of the class (this was in like Year 7) and told us that I wouldn't be going to heaven and that the other kid would.

Nice..

[Antares]

Okay people. I have a question. What is the purpose of religion? Why is god and jesus and those people even here? What does he really do for you? Don't you think you can live without him? (That last question was totally without offense)

[Hyper]

Well people like that aren't going to Heaven themselves either problably

[Camazotz]

The Bible was written by man, and translated by man. Whose to say it didnt go wrong there? And although I am a strong Catholic, I dont believe all parts of the Bible. Flooding the world? Or just ancient Mesopetamia? I believe in evolution, and sort of creationism. I dont think that people just appeared out of nowhere. They evolved from ancient cells into animals. I dont think God likes to see His people suffer, He is trying to get our attention. Stop going into war and start helping the needy.

[Rutherford The Brave]

My devine beings were here through logical processes. The wolf, is couragous and smart as they hunt in packs and often take bears on alone. The tale of the arrow and the chicken foot is a great on, in which the leader of tribe was to kill a small british girl with an arrow to the head. So when she was sleeping he stuck a chicken foot in her hair and spilt his own blood. Thus saving the girls life, that gives me my intelligence and care.

[Mirataku]

Theodicy is a strange subject and hasnt been answered, properly since the 11th centuary, anyway we do not truly know the nature of god, i.e. Kant said god was just the sustainer of morality, Aristotle said the collaboration of reason

[MattHutzell]

I think the Bible does have its faults, due to the fact that it was not written by God Himself and that passed up through the years it could have been tampered with, but as for my reason for believing and trusting in God... Faith. That's all I need. Though today is one of those days that I dont know what to think, Faith will get me through it. :)

[BornActor]

3) Maybe humans adapted idk... lol
2) God spoke to the people who wrote the bible so it is written by him
Edit: The point about the world being older than the bible says. Science is based on theory. Not all of it is fact. So saying that the world is 4.6 billion years old could be completely wrong. Mainly because science has been wrong before.
1) You might want to read The Case for Faith by Lee Strobel. It explains it very clearly in objection number 2

[alex_93]

dunno if this point has been raised-im to lazy 2 find out but scientifically we all started out black. Sounds weird but research it if ur that interested our colours changed as we moved north south east west dependant on sun exposure. So basically science agrees with the bible on that we all started out as one colour....it just wasn't white.

[redcar]

Okay people. I have a question. What is the purpose of religion? Why is god and jesus and those people even here? What does he really do for you? Don't you think you can live without him? (That last question was totally without offense)

The purpose of religion is to give people faith. Without faith we have billions of people exisiting without any cause, any reason or any purpose. For billions of people to know they exist without any purpose or reason is a very dangerous thing.

We can not live without religion. Individuals can but as masses we can't. I won't go into any specific religions but religion plays a massive role in our lives, whether we ourselves are religious or not.

How many of our nations were founded on religious beliefs and morals, which today are still listened to? As humans, we need religion.

[Gender-Unknown]

so 1 more question and you will get a zillion dollars ( $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ) if you answer it.

Q - If god created the universe, what created him?

[redcar]

so 1 more question and you will get a zillion dollars ( $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ) if you answer it.

Q - If god created the universe, what created him?

That my friend, is indeed a question, you would get a lot of money for being able to answer.

[Hyper]

How many of our nations were founded on religious beliefs and morals, which today are still listened to?


All of them?

As for the great sarcastic question. Ask God :)

[Andrew56]

That my friend, is indeed a question, you would get a lot of money for being able to answer.

A number of skeptics ask this question. But God by definition is the uncreated creator of the universe, so the question Who created God? is illogical, just like To whom is the bachelor married?

So a more sophisticated questioner might ask: If the universe needs a cause, then why doesn't God need a cause? And if God doesn't need a cause, why should the universe need a cause? In reply, Christians should use the following reasoning:

Everything which has a beginning has a cause. The universe has a beginning.
Therefore the universe has a cause. The universe requires a cause because it had a beginning. God, unlike the universe, had no beginning, so doesn't need a cause. In addition, Einstein's general relativity, which has much experimental support, shows that time is linked to matter and space. So time itself would have begun along with matter and space.

Since God, by definition, is the creator of the whole universe, he is the creator of time. Therefore He is not limited by the time dimension He created, so has no beginning in time God is the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity (Isaiah 57:15). Therefore He doesn't have a cause.

Even if I gave you an exact answer, it would fall into a infinite series of questions or origin.

[Dolphus Raymond]

In reply, Christians should use the following reasoning:

Everything which has a beginning has a cause. The universe has a beginning.
Therefore the universe has a cause. The universe requires a cause because it had a beginning. God, unlike the universe, had no beginning, so doesn't need a cause. In addition, Einstein's general relativity, which has much experimental support, shows that time is linked to matter and space. So time itself would have begun along with matter and space.

Since God, by definition, is the creator of the whole universe, he is the creator of time. Therefore He is not limited by the time dimension He created, so has no beginning in time God is the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity (Isaiah 57:15). Therefore He doesn't have a cause.

That's not especially sound logic, though. "Everything which has a beginning, has a cause" is no more self-evident than "everything has a beginning." That is, you can't really assume that things without beginnings need no cause, or even exist at all. If you did, you could as easily assume that the universe had no beginning. Why not, after all? So, that argument neither argues against, or for, the existence of God.

How many of our nations were founded on religious beliefs and morals, which today are still listened to? As humans, we need religion.

I'm not sure I'd say that we were founded on religious morals. We were founded on morals that happen to be religious. But, "murder is wrong" or "theft is bad" pre-date Christianity and probably religion as a whole. They are, I'd argue, evident entirely outside of religion.

There are plenty of nontheistic countries, such as in Scandinavia, that seem to be doing just fine. Japan is a non-religious country (generally, Shintoism and stuff discounted) and they're even more moralistic than we are. Maybe religion encourages morality--that's a fair argument. But I see no evidence that widespread non-religiousness encourages immorality. That seems to relate more to culture than theological belief.

[ShatteredWings]

From the chick who had religon shoved down their throaght till age 11....


3) If there was a God, and you followed the Bible's version of events, Adam and Eve, two white people started the human race by making love, and thus making us all children of Adam and Eve. That being said, where did the black people come into this? IF Adam and Eve were both white ... how did we get coloured people, of so many races?
Who said adam and eve were white? That's never stated, and to me it seems clear that the [supposed] garden of eden was in the middle east. mutiple refernces to the Tigres[sp?] and Euphraties[sp] river (yes i have read the book)

2) The Bible is meant to be the "Word of God" - yet it wasn't written by him, so whoever wrote it must have been telling a little white lie somewhere along the line. Also, I don't understand how when Science tells us the Earth is 4.6 billion years old, and humans only ... A couple of hundred thousand at most (primitive forms of human too) ... And God created the Earth in 7 days, people come in that time frame too. Yet Science tells us people weren't around in around 4.55 billion years of the Earths existence. I still fail to comprehend that.
Yeaaahhhhh..........i don't get this one either. its illogical

1) If there was a God ... Where is he now? Children are dying in Africa of starvation, Priests are molesting Prior Boys. And personally, I have never sinned, I dont drink, I dont smoke (I have had sex before marriage, but never out of pressure or anything) nor have I ever stolen anything, or committed any serious crimes. And what do I get? Diabetes, with a lot of complications, when I was 11 years old. My representative sporting career has been in tatters because of injury, and my little brother has actually threatened to kill himself because of events in his life.
If you asked a religon nut [or my friend rachel], its because it makes us stronger. i think thats BS, but.....



This, my friend, is why i don't care for religon much

[Andrew56]

2) The Bible is meant to be the "Word of God" - yet it wasn't written by him, so whoever wrote it must have been telling a little white lie somewhere along the line.

2 Timothy 3:16 tells us that, "Every Scripture passage is inspired by God"

However, under the belief that it is written by uninspired man, that still means nothing. I believe what the Bible says because I think it's wisdom and prophecies are beyond any man.


Also, I don't understand how when Science tells us the Earth is 4.6 billion years old, and humans only ... A couple of hundred thousand at most (primitive forms of human too) ... And God created the Earth in 7 days, people come in that time frame too. Yet Science tells us people weren't around in around 4.55 billion years of the Earths existence. I still fail to comprehend that.

Scientists are aware of over 70 methods that give us ides of the earth's age. All of them are based on obvious reality that natural processes occurring steadily through time produce cumulative and often measurable results. So these studies reveal several maximum upper limits for the time these processes have continued.

Only a few of them are portrayed to support billions of years. Those few are loudly publicized to make evolution digestible.

And, for one of many things:

At present rates NASA experts were expecting a tremendous layer of dust on the moon due to its 4.5 to 5 billion year supposed age. The most CONSERVATIVE estimates were expecting 54 feet of dust on the moon.

But when we landed there, we found only and 1/8 of an inch to 3 inches of dust. Less than 8,000 year's worth.


1) If there was a God ... Where is he now? Children are dying in Africa of starvation, Priests are molesting Prior Boys. And personally, I have never sinned, I dont drink, I dont smoke (I have had sex before marriage, but never out of pressure or anything) nor have I ever stolen anything, or committed any serious crimes. And what do I get? Diabetes, with a lot of complications, when I was 11 years old. My representative sporting career has been in tatters because of injury, and my little brother has actually threatened to kill himself because of events in his life.


You're thinking of karma, not God. God doesn't have a consistent, crackable system of reward and punishment in place for our actions, except on an eternal scale.

[CaptainObvious]

Scientists are aware of over 70 methods that give us ides of the earth's age. All of them are based on obvious reality that natural processes occurring steadily through time produce cumulative and often measurable results. So these studies reveal several maximum upper limits for the time these processes have continued.

Only a few of them are portrayed to support billions of years. Those few are loudly publicized to make evolution digestible.

And, for one of many things:

At present rates NASA experts were expecting a tremendous layer of dust on the moon due to its 4.5 to 5 billion year supposed age. The most CONSERVATIVE estimates were expecting 54 feet of dust on the moon.

But when we landed there, we found only and 1/8 of an inch to 3 inches of dust. Less than 8,000 year's worth.

Actually, all dating methods that are reliable at over the timescales representing the life of our planet are pretty unequivocal about the planet's age being in the billions. Nobody disputes that except those for whom it spells the end of their argument - namely young earth creationists.

As for the moon dust argument, it's demonstrably stupid and has been proven false in technical papers. I've included a couple of links so you can read it yourself.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v15/i4/moondust.asp

http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v7/i1/moondust.asp

And this is from Answers in Genesis - a creationist site!

[Andrew56]

As that very site says:
The moon-dust argument was easy to understand and explain. Nevertheless, as we have indicated before, creationists as well as evolutionists need to be prepared to re-examine arguments as new and better data emerges.

So, fair enough.

How about . . . the earth's magnetic field decays exponentially, with a half-life of 1,400 years. Projecting in reverse, the earth's age comes out as 10,000 years or less.

[Dolphus Raymond]

As that very site says:
The moon-dust argument was easy to understand and explain. Nevertheless, as we have indicated before, creationists as well as evolutionists need to be prepared to re-examine arguments as new and better data emerges.

So, fair enough.

How about . . . the earth's magnetic field decays exponentially, with a half-life of 1,400 years. Projecting in reverse, the earth's age comes out as 10,000 years or less.

That rests on the assumption that the magnetic field decays exponentially. I've read the study you're talking about before. It fails to account for a number of things, the most significant of which is the nondipole field. In layman's terms, Barnes (the honorary-doctorate doctor who advanced the theory):

1. Ignored the corresponding increase in the nondipole field, which itself could account for the difference.

2. Made an arbitrary assumption about the exponentiality of decay, which has no scientific back-up (and is in fact widely contradicted).

3. Attributes his results very readily to Christian theology, as if he had a conclusion in search of a justification (which I suppose he openly did)

Evidence in clay pottery shows that the magnetic field has varied considerably -- 6,500 years ago, it was 20% weaker than today. Only 3,000 years ago, it was 45% stronger.

I know this is advanced science (a little beyond my understanding) and these seem like nit-picks. They aren't. They are fundamental parts of the study that were accepted as flawed, and non-scientific assumptions made based on author bias. In short, they don't hold up to the test of scientific rigor. It has nothing to do with the rationality their conclusions or assertions; it's just bad science.

[Mannequin]

If any of you had a traumatic event occur in your life, you'd be like "fuck this".
Just some intelligent insight.

[Andrew56]

If any of you had a traumatic event occur in your life, you'd be like "fuck this".
Just some intelligent insight.

Wow. That makes no sense. I wouldn't . . . .

[Dolphus Raymond]

If any of you had a traumatic event occur in your life, you'd be like "fuck this".
Just some intelligent insight.

I get to play both sides here. Hooray.

I agree with Andrew. I don't think that's true. I sometimes hear people argue that religion is only a way to cope with traumatic events. Other times people say that people only have religion because they don't understand suffering. It can't be both, and usually I don't think it's either.

I think that religion and belief systems can be debated on their merits without "explaining away" those beliefs in such simplistic terms.

[LeRoy_Fan]

Just to kind of hop in on the convo, I wanted to say something about your last point.

1) If there was a God ... Where is he now? Children are dying in Africa of starvation, Priests are molesting Prior Boys. And personally, I have never sinned, I dont drink, I dont smoke (I have had sex before marriage, but never out of pressure or anything) nor have I ever stolen anything, or committed any serious crimes. And what do I get? Diabetes, with a lot of complications, when I was 11 years old. My representative sporting career has been in tatters because of injury, and my little brother has actually threatened to kill himself because of events in his life.

First of all, children are dying in more places than Africa because of starvation. (I know what you mean, but it annoys me when people present Africa as such a miserable, poor, hepless country when there are many others in the same condition.)

You have never sinned? Really now? Have you ever lusted after someone, even in your mind? Ever lied? Ever disrespected your parents? Ever cussed with saying "God" or "Jesus" or "Christ" as an exclamatory word? Ever been envious of something/someone? If you have ever done any of these, you have indeed sinned. Also, drinking is not a sin. Getting drunk however, is.

The great thing about this is that we have all done one of the things that has been posted above. This puts us all at the same level and makes Christ's sacrifice for us all that more acceptable.

Why are children dying and priests molesting? Well, that is one of the great mysteries. "Why does God let bad things happen to good people?" is another way to say it.

Also, why does God let us sin? Wouldn't it have been easier to have created a being who wasn't capable of sin? Well, yeah, but where's the fun in that? If He had created people who would be perfect and sinless, for them to love Him would have no true meaning. What I mean is, if you are forced to love someone, it's not really love, is it? With the ability to sin, when we choose not to, we are sacrificing that part of our life to God.

I am sorry that you were diagnosed with diabetes. That is life, however. My dad has it, my grandfather has it, and I will probably have it.

Just my 2 cents...

[Dolphus Raymond]

Just to kind of hop in on the convo, I wanted to say something about your last point.

First of all, children are dying in more places than Africa because of starvation. (I know what you mean, but it annoys me when people present Africa as such a miserable, poor, hepless country when there are many others in the same condition.)

You have never sinned? Really now? Have you ever lusted after someone, even in your mind? Ever lied? Ever disrespected your parents? Ever cussed with saying "God" or "Jesus" or "Christ" as an exclamatory word? Ever been envious of something/someone? If you have ever done any of these, you have indeed sinned. Also, drinking is not a sin. Getting drunk however, is.

You're assuming that everyone agrees with your idea of sin. Non-Christians obviously don't find using "God" as an exclamatory word to be a sin. Many Christians find drinking to be.

His idea of sin may very well not encompass things that your traditional branch of Christianity sees as sin. It may include things as sin that you find to be OK.

Why are children dying and priests molesting? Well, that is one of the great mysteries. "Why does God let bad things happen to good people?" is another way to say it.

Also, why does God let us sin? Wouldn't it have been easier to have created a being who wasn't capable of sin? Well, yeah, but where's the fun in that? If He had created people who would be perfect and sinless, for them to love Him would have no true meaning. What I mean is, if you are forced to love someone, it's not really love, is it? With the ability to sin, when we choose not to, we are sacrificing that part of our life to God.

Why does God need to be worshiped? Why would God create entities only to be happy with him for creating them? Why does God, a perfect being, need that type of fulfillment? What would it bring Him? I think these "mysteries" are reasonable arguments against the existence of a Judeo-Christian God.

If something is so mysterious as to have these deeply unanswerable questions, and isn't self-evident otherwise, faith in it seems irrational to me. That, I think, is the best argument for agnosticism there is.

[LeRoy_Fan]

You're assuming that everyone agrees with your idea of sin. Non-Christians obviously don't find using "God" as an exclamatory word to be a sin. Many Christians find drinking to be.

His idea of sin may very well not encompass things that your traditional branch of Christianity sees as sin. It may include things as sin that you find to be OK.

Well, of course I'm using Christianity's view point of sin, for there is no point in using any other religions views in this thread. Do you use a screwdriver to hammer in a nail...?


Why does God need to be worshiped? Why would God create entities only to be happy with him for creating them? Why does God, a perfect being, need that type of fulfillment? What would it bring Him? I think these "mysteries" are reasonable arguments against the existence of a Judeo-Christian God.

Why do we play board games? It's fun. Why do you play solitaire? You've probably beaten the game before, why play it again? You've mastered it. You play it again because it's fun.

(not exactly the best anser/example, but I'm in a rush)


If something is so mysterious as to have these deeply unanswerable questions, and isn't self-evident otherwise, faith in it seems irrational to me. That, I think, is the best argument for agnosticism there is.

They don't seem to be unaswerable...

[Dolphus Raymond]

Well, of course I'm using Christianity's view point of sin, for there is no point in using any other religions views in this thread. Do you use a screwdriver to hammer in a nail...?

I just now noticed you were replying to the first post, not a reply. I thought you were arguing with a skeptic's rhetorical questions with Christian doctrine. You were just answering the question from the Christian POV. Sorry, my bad.

Why do we play board games? It's fun. Why do you play solitaire? You've probably beaten the game before, why play it again? You've mastered it. You play it again because it's fun.

(not exactly the best anser/example, but I'm in a rush)

That doesn't really make sense to me. If God is perfect, he has no reason to be entertained. And if God is so crushed by our sinning, and having to send us to Hell (as the Bible claims), how could he be getting perverse pleasure out of it? Those seem like two very different Gods to me.

I'd like to hear your non-rushed answer too, if it's not too much trouble.

They don't seem to be unaswerable...

That's why I think they're great arguments for theological skepticism. :)

[LeRoy_Fan]

I just now noticed you were replying to the first post, not a reply. I thought you were arguing with a skeptic's rhetorical questions with Christian doctrine. You were just answering the question from the Christian POV. Sorry, my bad.

It's cool. :P


That doesn't really make sense to me. If God is perfect, he has no reason to be entertained. And if God is so crushed by our sinning, and having to send us to Hell (as the Bible claims), how could he be getting perverse pleasure out of it? Those seem like two very different Gods to me.

I'd like to hear your non-rushed answer too, if it's not too much trouble.

Now, you gotta remember I am just a kid, and not a preacher who has studied this stuff in detail, so, I may not comepletely be right, but merely giving my opinion on why things are the way they are. ;)

Just to kind of simplify the original question, "Why did God need to create humans? and why does he let them be persecuted by the world?"

I believe that God created humans, simply because he could. (I guess, the same reason He created the universe itself.) Why, I don't know, and I don't think anyone could truly say. He did because He could.

Why does He let them be persecuted? Well, if you believe the Christian faith, God created a world that was perfect, and man screwed it up. It was when Eve took the apple, and she and adam (for it was both man and woman's fault, not just the girl's as many people state.) ate of it that sin was introduced into the world. God created something perfect, we messed it up.

That's the best I can do for now :P

[Sporadica]

How can genocide, disease, starvation, rape, torture, etc be considered a just repayment of sins, when most of the people undergoing such actions have sinned far less than many in America and in the "Civilized World"? You can't possibly say that they deserve it. Babies and children dying of murder and disease and hunger? Little girls being raped? Millions dead from AIDS? seriously.

yeah, and why is it that if our parents sin then it is us who pay for that sin? thats so total bullshit (pardon my language but i am pretty upset right now) and why is it that this god guy cant throw a little something nice my way? Eh? i am in school i try my hardest and this god guy cant even make me a little smarter or make the stuff a little esier for me? and why is it that my body has to be so crappy? i drink a ton of water a day (sometimes 3 litres) i do alot of hardcore physical activity, ive been eating right for a few months (with the occasional treat form a fast food joint maybe twice) and I havent lost a pound? it makes me so angry that I do all this hard work, planning, doing, putting in the funds yet i hardly get something out of it.

[Sporadica]

watch this and youll be laughing and thinking

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

"But he Loves you"

[Dolphus Raymond]

It's cool. :P
Why does He let them be persecuted? Well, if you believe the Christian faith, God created a world that was perfect, and man screwed it up. It was when Eve took the apple, and she and adam (for it was both man and woman's fault, not just the girl's as many people state.) ate of it that sin was introduced into the world. God created something perfect, we messed it up.

That's the best I can do for now :P

You're not doing a bad job of representing the Christian view on this. Unfortunately the Christian view doesn't make much sense to me. In this case:

If the potential for evil existed in the world, and the human potential to disobey God did, it wouldn't be a perfect, sinless world. The inertia for sin would still exist; "sin energy" if you will. God had to have created that, free will aside. As for the creation of humans, "because He wanted to" is kind of an unfulfilling answer (but the only one I've heard) relative to most Christian apologist answers. It seems like a pretty big potential hole to me.

I know that a lot of Christians are going to reply "this is why we have faith, and faith trumps logic." But I could have faith in anything -- a different religion with the same view on belief, or even just faith that I can fly. The latter is demonstrably false. But if faith transcends logic, as God does, I don't see why being demonstrably false would matter so much either. Is my little, mortal sense of what's "true" and "false" on Earth enough to judge God?

So, it's not so much that I can't imagine something faith-based is true...it's that I can't imagine how one would know what to have faith in. I could trust my gut instinct or feeling, but mathematically, those seem to suck a little. And tradition is more about where I'm born then what's true. So, you can see the quandary here.

[soccerboy13]

i have been raised in a strongly religious family we say grace before ever meal and before bed time. we also go to church regularly(spelling). and i asked my grandma questions exactly like those and she told me just like atonement said just to have faith and eventualy all your questions will be answered so that is what i do i have faith in god and the bible.

another thing si n happened when eve was tempted by satan to eat the fruit that was when sin was created. like in greek mythology when pandora as curious as she was opened the bowx and let all evil things into the world

[CaptainObvious]

i have been raised in a strongly religious family we say grace before ever meal and before bed time. we also go to church regularly(spelling). and i asked my grandma questions exactly like those and she told me just like atonement said just to have faith and eventualy all your questions will be answered so that is what i do i have faith in god and the bible.

But why do you have faith? Because you were told to? Is that it?

Personally, I don't understand that mindset. If you were told by a friend to go jump off a bridge and "have faith" that you would be saved, you'd probably tell them to **** off. So why does religion get a free pass?

[Andrew56]

I know that a lot of Christians are going to reply "this is why we have faith, and faith trumps logic."

Logic is not valid. It cannot tell us anything about God.

I do not believe that. If you look at it carefully, you can see that it's wrong. It says logic doesn't apply to the issue. but the statement is logical about the issue. It is logical because it claims to be true while its opposite is false. That claim, called the law of noncontradiction, is the basis of all logic.

In order to say that logic doesn't apply to God, you have to apply logic to God in that very statement. So logic is inescapable. You can't deny logic with your words unless you affirm it with the very same words. It is undeniable. When a truth cannot be denied, it must be true. So this objection is false. Logic can tell us some things about God. For instance, since God is truth, He cannot lie, as we are told in Hebrews 6:18. Logic is a valid tool for discovering truth and can be used effectively at all times.

That is what I believe, and I'm putting it out there, because as you know, I like to set myself apart from the average "Christian".

But why do you have faith? Because you were told to? Is that it?

Personally, I don't understand that mindset. If you were told by a friend to go jump off a bridge and "have faith" that you would be saved, you'd probably tell them to **** off. So why does religion get a free pass?

In his case, it seems so.

As for me, I doubted my faith strongly at on point in my life. I began thinking, "Why can't I just satisfy all the needs and desire of my heart?". None of it made any sense to me.

But I've come back to God, and my faith is now driven by the Holy Spirit.

Now listen carefully to what I say, I don't want this to be brushed over.

I have a spirit, and it is in direct communication with the Holy Spirit. It doesn't mean I can hear the voice of God in my head, but it means He directs my paths. He protects me. I ask Him what to do, and when He answers, I'm as sure of it as I am of my own existence. He warns me of danger. When I do things to hurt that connection, I feel it. My life begins to slip and slide around. I get into a terrible pit of despair that I cannot escape without mercy.

The obviousness of His work in my life, is beyond chance, and beyond deniable to me. And that is where my faith comes from.

[Dolphus Raymond]

Logic is not valid. It cannot tell us anything about God.

I do not believe that. If you look at it carefully, you can see that it's wrong. It says logic doesn't apply to the issue. but the statement is logical about the issue. It is logical because it claims to be true while its opposite is false. That claim, called the law of noncontradiction, is the basis of all logic.

In order to say that logic doesn't apply to God, you have to apply logic to God in that very statement. So logic is inescapable. You can't deny logic with your words unless you affirm it with the very same words. It is undeniable. When a truth cannot be denied, it must be true. So this objection is false. Logic can tell us some things about God. For instance, since God is truth, He cannot lie, as we are told in Hebrews 6:18. Logic is a valid tool for discovering truth and can be used effectively at all times.

Got me. I should have said, the Christian argument is that our understanding of logic does not apply to God. Logic, by our definition, is a tautology--it cannot be "not true," or it would not be logic. You're totally right.

That is what I believe, and I'm putting it out there, because as you know, I like to set myself apart from the average "Christian".

Not the average debater, for that matter :)

The obviousness of His work in my life, is beyond chance, and beyond deniable to me. And that is where my faith comes from.

That is interesting to me. How do you personally account for the geographical distribution of religions, though? Specifically: Do you feel that religion is sociologically distributed as any other concept, but once found, is a "true medium" through which such a spiritual communication takes place? I hope that question is phrased clearly.

Moreover, since other religions have followers who experience the same -- how do you account for that? Do you deny that this could be a sociological phenomenon manifested through strong feelings of certainty? After all, if your religion is correct, that's probably what all other religions have to be. Unless God is screwing with them...

[Andrew56]

Not the average debater, for that matter :)

Flattered. :yeah: Ditto to you.



That is interesting to me. How do you personally account for the geographical distribution of religions, though? Specifically: Do you feel that religion is sociologically distributed as any other concept, but once found, is a "true medium" through which such a spiritual communication takes place? I hope that question is phrased clearly.

Moreover, since other religions have followers who experience the same -- how do you account for that? Do you deny that this could be a sociological phenomenon manifested through strong feelings of certainty? After all, if your religion is correct, that's probably what all other religions have to be. Unless God is screwing with them...

Firstly, it seems you forgot, I don't like religion. Religion is justifications and false comfort.

Let me break it down very simple.

I believe Jesus is real. I believe He is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. Which paints a picture of an mighty ruler towering over what is His. But that's not what He is to me.

I don't see Him as a massive giant or anything. We're made in his image, and we're not like that

I don't see Him as a king that you have to approach with your face in the dirt.

I see Him as someone who loves me. He knows my name, and He spends time with me. I have an extremely personal relationship with Him. It's not just following some mysterious entity around for me.

I can talk to Him.

He just asks that I don't mess up my life. He offers Himself to save me from where I was headed, living for myself.

As for other similar experiences . . . firstly, it's only similar descriptions of experiences, so it's simply their word saying it was the same type of feeling or experience.

Second, I believe people can have very spiritual experiences that are extremely vivid.

I also believe in demonic spirits.

Most of the times people have these "experiences" are in groups, and hyped up situations.

Why can't they have them in a comforting, quiet, on-on-one with a loving Saviour situation?

And I think you would say they do, but the only times those type of situations are mentioned, are at times when it glorifies the person who had the experience.

We are to glorify God, not ourselves.

Let me know what confused you if it wasn't very clear.

[LeRoy_Fan]

Kind of going off in a little different direction, but anyways:

I think one of the reasons I have a good faith in believing that the Bible is true, and that the stuff inside it is true, is that there have been things that have been scientifically proven to have existed. Things like this include one example where Joshua had asked the Lord to stop the sun from going down. (Joshua 10:12-14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joshua%2010:12-14;&version=47;)) And it has been proven by science that there are several very true possibilities of how this could be possible. (http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2189)

Also, at the bottom of the Red Sea, where Moses and the Isrealites supposedly crossed while escaping from Egypt, there have been horse hooves, chariots (http://www.wyattmuseum.com/red-sea-crossing-05.htm), and other egyptian-era objects found.

There are other things, but I can't find any websites with info on them, so I see no need in posting them :P

[Dolphus Raymond]

Let me know what confused you if it wasn't very clear.

I understand what you mean, but what do you say to people who claim the exact same personal relationship with a God who tells them different things, or whose dogma disagrees with yours? Are they all insane, or lying, or what? How do you know that your experience is the "right one" and not a product of your environment and your desires? It assumes that there experience is less genuine somehow.

I don't understand how you can dismiss, say, Pentecostals as being "hyped up groups," while you're absolutely certain that your own experiences are genuine. Is it impossible that they come from the same place, and you just experience it in a less social way?

[Dolphus Raymond]

Kind of going off in a little different direction, but anyways:

I think one of the reasons I have a good faith in believing that the Bible is true, and that the stuff inside it is true, is that there have been things that have been scientifically proven to have existed. Things like this include one example where Joshua had asked the Lord to stop the sun from going down. (Joshua 10:12-14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joshua%2010:12-14;&version=47;)) And it has been proven by science that there are several very true possibilities of how this could be possible. (http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2189)

That seems like a pretty bad standard to me. You take one supernatural event in the Bible, and then try to prove how it could be feasibly true. That's not really scientific, but it makes sense. But then the article says, well, Joshua prayed and he got what he asked for, whatever caused it, so it's true. That doesn't.

The (flawed) standard they're using is apparently:

1. If it was allegedly prayed for, and allegedly happened; and,
2. If there could be a scientific explanation,

Then it is scientific evidence that the Bible is true. The Bible's "proof" (Joshua said he prayed for it afterward) here is not any greater than miracles in any other religious text. It says that a miracle happened, and there was an after-the-fact claim he prayed for it. Trouble is, there are virtually no religions that don't claim miracles like this.

Besides, the article even goes as far as to essentially say, God can do whatever He wants, so the science behind it doesn't matter. So, I don't get the point of the article. That's basically the problem I have with apologism. It's like, "you should be convinced by our logical analysis, even though once you believe, you realize that mortal understanding doesn't apply to God"...

It also trusts that the Bible is a perfect historical document, which is more than a little disputable.

Also, at the bottom of the Red Sea, where Moses and the Isrealites supposedly crossed while escaping from Egypt, there have been horse hooves, chariots (http://www.wyattmuseum.com/red-sea-crossing-05.htm), and other egyptian-era objects found.

I Googled "red sea hooves" and was surprised to find no relevant results whatsoever. No wonder why. Ron Wyatt is was (RIP) apparently a fraudster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Wyatt):

Ronald Eldon Wyatt (1933 - August 4, 1999) was an amateur archaeologist (he had no training in the discipline and held no professional position) and author who claimed to have discovered many significant biblical sites and artifacts. His claims are dismissed by scientists, historians, biblical scholars and most Christian leaders even in his own Seventh-day Adventist Church, but he continues to be quoted (especially on the Internet).

[LeRoy_Fan]

I Googled "red sea hooves" and was surprised to find no relevant results whatsoever. No wonder why. Ron Wyatt is was (RIP) apparently a fraudster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Wyatt):

Now, just to be fair, this is wikipedia. Not exactly the most acurate site on the web. :P

I will say I am mistaken about the WAR thing, though.

As for this:

That seems like a pretty bad standard to me. You take one supernatural event in the Bible, and then try to prove how it could be feasibly true. That's not really scientific, but it makes sense.

If I understand what you are saying, the reason I tried to pull that out is that it is something that a person who had no bias towards Christianity/Atheism can see as fact, and make their own decisions. It was a bad article I picked, because it is obviously very biased towards the Christian faith. I try to find things that are scientific, so that it catches the attention of people who would instead have no interest in exploring the myth/truth behind Biblical stories.

[Andrew56]

I understand what you mean, but what do you say to people who claim the exact same personal relationship with a God who tells them different things, or whose dogma disagrees with yours? Are they all insane, or lying, or what? How do you know that your experience is the "right one" and not a product of your environment and your desires? It assumes that there experience is less genuine somehow.

First, the term, "a God" doesn't fly with me. I believe in "the God".

There is only one God. People can follow a god but not a God.

I believe many people have a relationship with Jesus, and what He says to them will be personal and varying, but it would never contradict His Word, or anything like that. It's based on your life and situation, but his core commandments and His Will are the same for everyone who knows Him.

If people think they are getting told things from Jesus Christ that are contrary to His Word, then I do not believe that have a relationship with Him.

Todd Bentley? Psychotic, and in defiance of what God's Word says. Insane, or lying for glory? Not sure.

I know my experiences are not a product of my environment because I've had them in many environments, and my relationship with Christ doesn't changed based on a situation.

I know it's not my desires because there have been plenty of times the Spirit convicts me to do something I totally do not want to do at all. And I'll fight it. For days, weeks, months, or years. But He is steadfast, and His Will is perfect, and although what He asks can seems terrifying at times, it has always worked out for the best.

Finally, I believe people can have personal demonic relationships and say it's from Jesus. Which is pretty creepy.

I don't understand how you can dismiss, say, Pentecostals as being "hyped up groups," while you're absolutely certain that your own experiences are genuine. Is it impossible that they come from the same place, and you just experience it in a less social way?

Yes, the Bible describes many kinds of worship and praise, and freaking out, convulsions, tongues, and the like are only mentioned in the Bible as being against God's Will.

He doesn't want people to loose control in the Spirit, He wants people to gain control in It.

[Dolphus Raymond]

I have to do this very quick because I have a bus to catch, so you'll have to pardon me for my brevity.

LeRoy,

I know Wikipedia is editable by anyone, but the article is sourced. It's solid information; I just wish there were a better centralized source to link to. Not sure what you mean by "WAR." I appreciate your attempts to justify your faith by logic, but I think apologism finds a bad middle ground. It isn't evidently logical enough to justify belief without faith (in my opinion) but still acts as if burden-of-proof logic should be relevant to faith when faith is supposed to require no burden of proof. I know your intentions were good, it's just a bit of a nit-pick.

Andrew,

Thanks for the reply, but I think I'm not presenting my question well. I'm asking how you can be certain that your relationship with God is genuine, and not just a product of your beliefs (from doctrine) combining with the same desire those "deluded" people have.

That is, you admit that some people have false communications with God because they believe they do (you call that "insane," I'm not so sure). I assume that they have communications with God under their interpretation of doctrine. You say they must be false, because they do not conform to God's word. But does conforming to God's word prove that your experiences are true? Would you expect them to not conform to your interpretation of God's word? I hope the thrust of my question is clearer now.

(I might be prodding too much into a question you can't reasonably answer, but I want to hear your thoughts.)

[Andrew56]

I think I'm not presenting my question well. I'm asking how you can be certain that your relationship with God is genuine, and not just a product of your beliefs (from doctrine) combining with the same desire those "deluded" people have.

That is, you admit that some people have false communications with God because they believe they do (you call that "insane," I'm not so sure).

PAUSE! You said insane, so I used the word as well.

Go.

I assume that they have communications with God under their interpretation of doctrine. You say they must be false, because they do not conform to God's word. But does conforming to God's word prove that your experiences are true? Would you expect them to not conform to your interpretation of God's word? I hope the thrust of my question is clearer now.

(I might be prodding too much into a question you can't reasonably answer, but I want to hear your thoughts.)

I am more sure of my personal relationship with Christ them I am with my own parents. I ask, He answers. He provides, He protects, and He comforts. What His Word says has been proven true countless times in my life, and in the lives of many Christians I know.

For you to ask me how I'm sure, is like me asking you how you know you have any true friends. As sure as you may be of a friend, you can't really convince me unless I build up my own relationship with him. No matter how many people say he is a swell guy, I don't know him. I can't be sure of him.

You can see and feel him you might say, but God's Word says this;

Romans 1:20
From the creation of the world, God's invisible qualities, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly observed in what he made. As a result, people have no excuse.

I can't begin to describe my surety in what I believe. As I'm sure you can't begin to understand it.

And yes, it does sound like some pretty crazy radical bull crap, I know.

[Dolphus Raymond]

Hah, I guess. For me, beligion seems to alternate between "crazy radical bullcrap" and "music everyone's dancing to but I can't hear." Thanks for the honest answer, in any case. I wasn't trying to play solipsistic "but how do you know we really exist, man?" bullshit. I did get dangerously close.

So, anyway. I guess if your existence is so predicated on a strong believed experience, it doesn't much matter if other people hold conflicting strong believed experiences. It's less important to you, I'm almost certain, than it is for those of us without any such experience to back faith up. Real or imagined, those experiences just don't seem to come, no matter how I try to hold my heart and mind open. And, I guess because of that, eternal hellfire.

And the music plays on.

[LeRoy_Fan]

Not sure what you mean by "WAR."

Wyatt Archaeological Research.

;)

[Dolphus Raymond]

Wyatt Archaeological Research.

;)

Oh, duh. Thanks... :P

[Andrew56]

Real or imagined, those experiences just don't seem to come, no matter how I try to hold my heart and mind open. And, I guess because of that, eternal hellfire.


Well, you know, a person like yourself should think about the "What if"

What is the Bible is true? What if there really is life after death . . . God does punish sin . . . Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven . . . Hell does exist? What will you say then?

Seriously, get in a deep thoughtful moment, don't just skim that and shrug it off. What if?

You can't blame God: He has already made it possible for you to be saved: "God loved the people of this world so much that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who Has faith in Him will have eternal life and never really die." (John 3:16).

You can't say you aren't a sinner: The Bible says: "Adam sinned, and that sin brought death into the world. Now everyone has sinned, and so everyone must die."

You can't say: "I'm doing the best I can." or "I'm a good person." God says: "Each of our good deeds is merely a filthy rag. We dry up like leaves; our sins are storm winds sweeping us away."

You can't say you have years to figure it out . . . you never know when the heavy hand of death will come to take you.

You can't say you haven't been warned, or that you didn't know. Everyone has sinned and we all deserve death.

You can say you don't believe it, but it doesn't change the facts. The choice of spending eternity in Heaven or Hell is yours alone. If you aren't concerned about your own soul, and have no desire to be saved, then so be it. I can't change your mind. Only God can. All I can do is tell you. The rest is between you and God.

[Dolphus Raymond]

Andrew,

I've thought about this before. A lot. I'm probably a lot of bad things, but I'm not an un-thoughtful person. I swim in "what-ifs."

The problem: "What if" the Koran were true? "What if" God were to punish people who forced themselves into a synthetic faith because someone "warned" them? "What if" I were to convert to a religion that just ended up antagonizing and scaring people with no just ends? "What if" is the problem.

And, yes, God could change my mind. He could make His own existence self-evident. He could make his doctrine of choice self-evident. You may feel that He does. But I have no real vested interest in ignoring self-evident truths, nor have I been raised to do so. When I tell this to religious folk, they say, "but that's where faith comes in." And that's where I'm lost, literally or metaphorically; I cannot believe everything that I want to believe, or am told to believe, simply because I can't prove it's not true. And I can't give Christianity preference just because I am more exposed to it, or because it's "more logical than other faiths." Nor can I convert because it's the most effective at scaring me. It doesn't make sense.

And now I'm going to say something dickish. I don't understand how you could think that I have never "really" thought about this sort of thing. I also feel that I just simply deserve better than a manipulative statement like if you aren't concerned about your own soul. I mean, I guess that probably works on a lot of people, but up until this latest post, I never got the feeling that I was being proselytized. I appreciated that.

[Andrew56]

Andrew,

I've thought about this before. A lot. I'm probably a lot of bad things, but I'm not an un-thoughtful person. I swim in "what-ifs."

I don't understand how you could think that I have never "really" thought about this sort of thing.


I know, I've shown many of my friends many of your posts and we discuss what a thoughtful and intelligent person you are. I didn't mean that to sound like a challenge of something you don't normally do.

The problem: "What if" the Koran were true? "What if" God were to punish people who forced themselves into a synthetic faith because someone "warned" them? "What if" I were to convert to a religion that just ended up antagonizing and scaring people with no just ends? "What if" is the problem.

And, yes, God could change my mind. He could make His own existence self-evident. He could make his doctrine of choice self-evident. You may feel that He does. But I have no real vested interest in ignoring self-evident truths, nor have I been raised to do so. When I tell this to religious folk, they say, "but that's where faith comes in." And that's where I'm lost, literally or metaphorically; I cannot believe everything that I want to believe, or am told to believe, simply because I can't prove it's not true. And I can't give Christianity preference just because I am more exposed to it, or because it's "more logical than other faiths." Nor can I convert because it's the most effective at scaring me. It doesn't make sense.

Very true. But I've said it before, it's a lot more than faith that drives me.

And now I'm going to say something dickish. I don't understand how you could think that I have never "really" thought about this sort of thing. I also feel that I just simply deserve better than a manipulative statement like if you aren't concerned about your own soul. I mean, I guess that probably works on a lot of people, but up until this latest post, I never got the feeling that I was being proselytized. I appreciated that.

Do you believe you have a soul? If not, then I apologize.

If you believe this is about your "conversion" you're wrong. Step into my shoes for a second. I want everyone to have the same relationship I have with Christ. I only mean to let others in on what I've found . . . I'm sorry you took it as an attempt at "bringing you to my side". I don't see it like that, and from me, it's only information.

I felt like sharing it after you mentioned you've tried to be open to it before.

For one second, just a second, just to know what I think . . . Pretend everything in the Bible is right: Honestly man, you're cool. I'd love for you to accept God's grace and mercy. Imagining my faith is correct, I don't want you to have to die.

I am not here to "proselytize" people. I'm here to be questioned and thereby learn and grow in my own faith.

I just felt I should present what I believed in a clear fashion.

Sorry it rubbed you wrong. Knowing what I believe, I hoped you would have taken it as a caring act.

[Dolphus Raymond]

I know, I've shown many of my friends many of your posts and we discuss what a thoughtful and intelligent person you are. I didn't mean that to sound like a challenge of something you don't normally do.

I appreciate that - I'm sorry if I over-reacted. 8 AM construction in my apartment complex, whee-haw.

Do you believe you have a soul? If not, then I apologize.

If you believe this is about your "conversion" you're wrong. Step into my shoes for a second. I want everyone to have the same relationship I have with Christ. I only mean to let others in on what I've found . . . I'm sorry you took it as an attempt at "bringing you to my side". I don't see it like that, and from me, it's only information.

I felt like sharing it after you mentioned you've tried to be open to it before.

For one second, just a second, just to know what I think . . . Pretend everything in the Bible is right: Honestly man, you're cool. I'd love for you to accept God's grace and mercy. Imagining my faith is correct, I don't want you to have to die.

I am not here to "proselytize" people. I'm here to be questioned and thereby learn and grow in my own faith.

I just felt I should present what I believed in a clear fashion.

Sorry it rubbed you wrong. Knowing what I believe, I hoped you would have taken it as a caring act.

There's no need to apologize. I think I was being overly sensitive.

Answering your question: I don't really believe in a soul, or disbelieve. It's an "out there" sort of metaphysical concept, so I don't really have strong proof either way.

I do know what you believe. And I know you find fulfillment in what you feel is a personal relationship with God. I understand what you were trying to do, I suppose, and I have no problem with you telling me about that relationship. But, I don't know, lines like "if you aren't concerned about your own soul" and "you should think about the 'what-if'" felt to me like stuff I'd get told on the street corner downtown by strangers.

Maybe I was reacting too strongly. But if a soul were to exist, of course I'd care about mine, even if I don't actually believe. So, yeah, I'm interested in avoiding eternal damnation. But I can't just say "well, I have to take some stakes in this religion thing, so I might as well go with what seems most likely of religions." That's still not faith, or belief. I don't know what it is, but not that.

If God were to make it clear to me somehow, in some evident way, what was true, I'd be more than happy to believe. Not have faith, but believe. For some reason, if God does exist in the way you imagine, it's in His plan to give you clear signals and me, none. I don't believe God would send me to Hell for trying to be kind-hearted, even praying for forgiveness, but not being sure of His existence.

I guess that's a leap of faith--err, belief--on my part, but until I know better in some tangible way, it's probably where I'm stuck. We all take our chances. If God is truly forgiving and compassionate, I don't honestly think I'm in too much trouble. I've been wrong before.

[Andrew56]

But I can't just say "well, I have to take some stakes in this religion thing, so I might as well go with what seems most likely of religions.

Religion is not good. I think religion is pointless and bad.

I know a Dude who gave me a ticket to an eternal paradise. I am now doing my best to give Him figurative high-fives.

That's closer to my life.

If God were to make it clear to me somehow, in some evident way, what was true, I'd be more than happy to believe. Not have faith, but believe. For some reason, if God does exist in the way you imagine, it's in His plan to give you clear signals and me, none. I don't believe God would send me to Hell for trying to be kind-hearted, even praying for forgiveness, but not being sure of His existence.

I guess that's a leap of faith--err, belief--on my part, but until I know better in some tangible way, it's probably where I'm stuck. We all take our chances. If God is truly forgiving and compassionate, I don't honestly think I'm in too much trouble. I've been wrong before.


Well, as long as you're open to possibility of it, no matter how mind-blowingly small the chance is, all I can ask is that you keep yourself open.

As for faith, I rarely rely on faith.

On second thought, I've got really lame faith.

On third thought, if someone is willing to do a suicide bombing for what they think will be an eternal reward, that seems like more faith then I have.

They believe what they believe as strongly, if not more strongly than I.

So, why should I be right?

Honestly, what's setting my faith in Jesus apart from anything else?

If I erase most of my basic beliefs, what am I standing on?

I hate this feeling. I have to talk to my Pastor now. He better have some good answers. :(