Should Catalonia be free.

[tovaris]

Do you think Catalonia should be a free country?
Mayb just form a two state fededation with castilia (and the rest).

[Jean Poutine]

Any territorial subdivision belonging to a different ethnicity than the country it is attached to should be free if it so wishes.

[dxcxdzv]

Any territorial subdivision belonging to a different ethnicity than the country it is attached to should be free if it so wishes.
What do you call "ethnicity"?

[Plane And Simple]

Do you think Catalonia should be a free country?
Mayb just form a two state fededation with castilia (and the rest).

Spain*

Any territorial subdivision belonging to a different ethnicity than the country it is attached to should be free if it so wishes.

How are Catalans a different ethnicity from Spanish (?) or Europeans on the whole?

[tovaris]

Spain*



Not spain, Castilia fir the historic segnificance.

Spai

How are Catalans a different ethnicity from Spanish (?) or Europeans on the whole?



They are a diferent nation. They spek a diferent language.



Any territorial subdivision belonging to a different ethnicity than the country it is attached to should be free if it so wishes.



I agree, but only as long as they are indigenous. Imigrants to a country cannot furfil that criteria.

[dxcxdzv]

tovaris : Castilla is just a region of a greater thing that is the whole Kingdom of Spain.
Or maybe I don't get what you mean, in this case please explain. But it's true that the crown of Castilla owns actually the crown of Spain, anyway I think it's wrong to only say Castilla, the Aragón time is gone.

[tovaris]

tovaris : Castilla is just a region of a greater thing that is the whole Kingdom of Spain.
Or maybe I don't get what you mean, in this case please explain. But it's true that the crown of Castilla owns actually the crown of Spain, anyway I think it's wrong to only say Castilla, the Aragón time is gone.

Yes i am awere castilia is one region.
And since the crow of castilia (remember je "merger"),ruler all of spain, if a federation would be to arise there would be two enteties one under direct rule of madrid the other Catalonin republic, within the spanish dederation

[Plane And Simple]

Not spain, Castilia fir the historic segnificance.



They are a diferent nation. They spek a diferent language.



I agree, but only as long as they are indigenous. Imigrants to a country cannot furfil that criteria.

1. Aragón in that case. Castilla had nothing to do with Cataluña.

2. Speaking a different language does not mean you're a different nation. They were just as aragonés as the test, and as so they remain Spanish per Se. Galicians speak Gallego and they're Spanish.

Thing is they're not quite getting right the request for independence. Let's review real quick what they want:

1. Complete independence (political, economical, territorial) from the country of Spain.

2. 1: debt towards the Spanish nation to be cancelled (what?) because of said request being accomplished

3. Still retain some (most) of the aids from the Spanish government (huh?)

4. Remain within the European union - Incorrect to me. The EU has standards that have to be met, economically, socially-wise, etc. New country ? New standards and thus new start. Simple as that. You cannot let your co-worker's son enter the company just because it's their son.

5. And as such still retain the Euro.

They want the best of both worlds and as per the rules, they won't have it. The constitution is there for a reason, and if they messed up their planning and want to press reset, independence is not where that button is located. I understand they want their recognition - were willing to give it to them just as the Basque country has. What we won't do is suck up their debt, keep the cash flowing to them, and wait, because they still want Fútbol Club Barcelona (Barça) to play in the Spanish league. I'm sorry, what?

[sqishy]

In my opinion, it has its own right to independence if it so wishes. That sure seems to be the case.

[Vlerchan]

2. Speaking a different language does not mean you're a different nation. They were just as aragonés as the test, and as so they remain Spanish per Se. Galicians speak Gallego and they're Spanish.
Nationalisms creates nations. The Spanish people exist as a product of Spanish nationalism and the Catalans or the Galicians or the Basques are Spanish so long as the people of these regions continue to believe the claims that underpin Spanish nationalism.

It's also not that a common tongue makes a nation - but one is quite conductive to the appearance of one. In tandem with the printing press and the rise of capitalism [and to a lesser extent the occultisation of Latin amongst elites] - language was of massive importance of establishing various European nationalisms. It defines the boundaries of understanding and thus the extent to which culture and myth might spread. That's the reason political mobilisation along linguistic lines has been common - though it will become less so with the anglicanisation of world discourse.

2. 1: debt towards the Spanish nation to be cancelled (what?) because of said request being accomplished [...]

5. And as such still retain the Euro.
I haven't been keeping up with the debate. What's the argument bolstering this demand?

From a more pragmatic economic standpoint I would imagine it's required if the region is expecting to be booted out of the Euro since imminent on the introduction of some new currency would cause government debt to balloon.

3. Still retain some (most) of the aids from the Spanish government (huh?)

From what I understand Madrid takes more in transfers from the region than it returns.

The EU has standards that have to be met, economically, socially-wise, etc.
If it's willing to let countries like Croatia in then there's no upfront reason that an independent Catalan would be rejected. The actual problem is going to be a vindictive post-separation Spain vetoing their ascension.

That seems to me to be the reason this is included.

[Plane And Simple]

Nationalisms creates nations. The Spanish people exist as a product of Spanish nationalism and the Catalans or the Galicians or the Basques are Spanish so long as the people of these regions continue to believe the claims that underpin Spanish nationalism.

It's also not that a common tongue makes a nation - but one is quite conductive to the appearance of one. In tandem with the printing press and the rise of capitalism [and to a lesser extent the occultisation of Latin amongst elites] - language was of massive importance of establishing various European nationalisms. It defines the boundaries of understanding and thus the extent to which culture and myth might spread. That's the reason political mobilisation along linguistic lines has been common - though it will become less so with the anglicanisation of world discourse.


I haven't been keeping up with the debate. What's the argument bolstering this demand?

From a more pragmatic economic standpoint I would imagine it's required if the region is expecting to be booted out of the Euro since imminent on the introduction of some new currency would cause government debt to balloon.


From what I understand Madrid takes more in transfers from the region than it returns.


If it's willing to let countries like Croatia in then there's no upfront reason that an independent Catalan would be rejected. The actual problem is going to be a vindictive post-separation Spain vetoing their ascension.

That seems to me to be the reason this is included.

The argument among the debt can be found by listening to Artur Mas' Speeches. He goes on saying "Spain is stealing our money". I will find the sources if you want me to.

Take this source here which reflects a comparison between the two. Madrid and Cataluña. PIB is GDP, Deuda/déficit is Debt, and let me know if you need further translation.

http://www.datosmacro.com/ccaa/comparar/madrid/cataluna

[Vlerchan]

The argument among the debt can be found by listening to Artur Mas' Speeches. He goes on saying "Spain is stealing our money". I will find the sources if you want me to.
I guess he means this.

In Catalonia’s case, the regional government says that Madrid shortchanged it by somewhere in the range of €11 billion to €15 billion in 2011 (between €1,500 and €2,000 per capita), depending on how one does the calculations. The central government countered by saying the gap was only €8.5 billion.

According to a recent study co-authored by López, in 2012 Catalonia collected 118.6% of the national average of taxes per capita, putting it in third out of 15 regions. But after redistribution, its resources fell to 99.5%, putting it in 11th place. At the other extreme, the region of Extremadura collected 76.6% of the average in taxes, putting it in 14th place, but after redistribution it ended up with 111.8%, putting it in third.

http://fortune.com/2015/01/30/spain-catalonia-independence-taxes-economy/

People and companies in Catalonia pay 8.5 billion euros ($9.5 billion) more in taxes than the amount of public funds spent on the region, according to data from the Spanish Budget Ministry published earlier this year based on information from 2011. The Catalan government estimates the gap at 11.1 billion euros.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-04/rajoy-s-man-in-catalonia-want-to-limit-tax-transfers-to-spain

So, taking the source you posted, that's twice the value of the deficit. Though I have a feeling that the Catalan's are more resistant towards the 'fair share' of central government debt that the central government in Madrid might insist is levied on it. That could increase the national debt to quite a significant amount.

I also don't see a reason - even considering the transfers cited above - that Catalonia shouldn't be expected to shoulder some portion of the Spanish national debt if it decides to leave though.

Take this source here which reflects a comparison between the two. Madrid and Cataluña. PIB is GDP, Deuda/déficit is Debt, and let me know if you need further translation.

http://www.datosmacro.com/ccaa/comparar/madrid/cataluna
For a moment I was confused as to why this might be relevant. Then I read back to my own posts and realised. When I used the term 'Madrid' I was referring to the Spanish central government as it meets in Madrid. Sorry, I've been reading a lot of International Relations lately and it's common practice there to refer to capital cities as opposed to anything else.

What I meant is evidenced in the text I cited from Fortune magazine.

[tovaris]

1. Aragón in that case. Castilla had nothing to do with Cataluña.

/.../



I only insist on using Castilia because the crown is castilian and the language is castilian. I do realize Castilia and Aragon unified into one kingdom and than Catalonia and later on the Muslims were banished, but to get into detail here would be exhausting.



2. Speaking a different language does not mean you're a different nation. They were just as aragonés as the test, and as so they remain Spanish per Se. Galicians speak Gallego and they're Spanish.

/.../



Speaking a different language DOES make you a different nation. That's like saying the Basque are Spanish!!! Or that the sudtirolians are Italian...!!!



/.../

Thing is they're not quite getting right the request for independence. Let's review real quick what they want:


/.../





/.../

1. Complete independence (political, economical, territorial) from the country of Spain.

/.../



Nothing wrong with that, every nation has a right to complete independence.



/.../

2. 1: debt towards the Spanish nation to be cancelled (what?) because of said request being accomplished

/.../



It is my understanding that per capita and in general also Catalonia is the most successful region in Spain and also contributes more to the Spanish GDP than the rest, wouldn't that make Spain in debt to them?



/.../

3. Still retain some (most) of the aids from the Spanish government (huh?)

/.../



What aids? See last response.



/.../

4. Remain within the European union - Incorrect to me. The EU has standards that have to be met, economically, socially-wise, etc. New country ? New standards and thus new start. Simple as that. You cannot let your co-worker's son enter the company just because it's their son.

/../



Nonsense Catalonians know that by seceding from Spain they would exit the EU and would need to apply to join, that is also a major anti argument of those opposed to this.

And Catalonia is much more up to EU standards than the rest of spain, they wouldnt have truble meating EU demands.



/.../

5. And as such still retain the Euro.

/.../



They can still keep using the Euro regardless (Montenegro uses Euro and has no ties to EU), they would just have no control over it and couldn't mint their own coins etc.


/.../

They want the best of both worlds and as per the rules, they won't have it. The constitution is there for a reason, and if they messed up their planning and want to press reset, independence is not where that button is located. I understand they want their recognition - were willing to give it to them just as the Basque country has. What we won't do is suck up their debt, keep the cash flowing to them, and wait, because they still want Fútbol Club Barcelona (Barça) to play in the Spanish league. I'm sorry, what?



Every nation has a right to independence rearguards of the oppressing majority.
Wow really football?! Seriously? Hockey club Olimbija (Slovenia) playes in Austrian league EBEL so what.

[Plane And Simple]

I only insist on using Castilia because the crown is castilian and the language is castilian. I do realize Castilia and Aragon unified into one kingdom and than Catalonia and later on the Muslims were banished, but to get into detail here would be exhausting.



Speaking a different language DOES make you a different nation. That's like saying the Basque are Spanish!!! Or that the sudtirolians are Italian...!!!





Nothing wrong with that, every nation has a right to complete independence.



It is my understanding that per capita and in general also Catalonia is the most successful region in Spain and also contributes more to the Spanish GDP than the rest, wouldn't that make Spain in debt to them?



What aids? See last response.



Nonsense Catalonians know that by seceding from Spain they would exit the EU and would need to apply to join, that is also a major anti argument of those opposed to this.

And Catalonia is much more up to EU standards than the rest of spain, they wouldnt have truble meating EU demands.



They can still keep using the Euro regardless (Montenegro uses Euro and has no ties to EU), they would just have no control over it and couldn't mint their own coins etc.



Every nation has a right to independence rearguards of the oppressing majority.
Wow really football?! Seriously? Hockey club Olimbija (Slovenia) playes in Austrian league EBEL so what.

Won't keep going on the Castilia thing. I stated what it is, you can use what you feel fits better.

Basque are Spanish just as the people from Madrid are. They say it, we say it, and that's what it is. Speaking a different language doesn't make you a different nation. See Asturias. They had their language since the X century and are part of the spanish nation.

Wrong. first three lines of this document: GDP, GDP per Capita and debt. GDP-debt doesn't make it the most profitable. As such, spain is not in debt with them, as they've been lent a fair amount of money, which they would aparently refrain from paying if they were to become independent
http://www.datosmacro.com/ccaa/comparar/madrid/cataluna?sector=PIB+per+capita+en+Euros&sc=XE15

I'll look for the aids as soon as I get in touch with an insider I know.

Agree it's nonsense, but they do not know, at least their leader doesnt know (or doesn't care, whatever applies)
Check this article out for reference: http://www.eldiario.es/catalunya/politica/Eduard-Sagarra-ciudadanos-UE-independencia_0_433957439.html

If they wouldn't have trouble, why don't they face the trial, instead of just saying" No, we're staying?"

[tovaris]

Won't keep going on the Castilia thing. I stated what it is, you can use what you feel fits better.

Basque are Spanish just as the people from Madrid are. They say it, we say it, and that's what it is. Speaking a different language doesn't make you a different nation. See Asturias. They had their language since the X century and are part of the spanish nation.

Wrong. first three lines of this document: GDP, GDP per Capita and debt. GDP-debt doesn't make it the most profitable. As such, spain is not in debt with them, as they've been lent a fair amount of money, which they would aparently refrain from paying if they were to become independent
http://www.datosmacro.com/ccaa/comparar/madrid/cataluna?sector=PIB+per+capita+en+Euros&sc=XE15

I'll look for the aids as soon as I get in touch with an insider I know.

Agree it's nonsense, but they do not know, at least their leader doesnt know (or doesn't care, whatever applies)
Check this article out for reference: http://www.eldiario.es/catalunya/politica/Eduard-Sagarra-ciudadanos-UE-independencia_0_433957439.html

If they wouldn't have trouble, why don't they face the trial, instead of just saying" No, we're staying?"

You are from Madrid arent you?

Basque are most definatly not blody spanish! Are they french also because they live in france too?

And pleas keep in mind i do not understand a ward of spanish so pleas cite english articles we can both understand. Besides: http://www.eldiario.es/catalunya/politica/Eduard-Sagarra-ciudadanos-UE-independencia_0_433957439.html, from what i gather with google translate it says catalonians will remain citizens of spain since spain cant just take that away cuz its buthurt, therfor they remain EU citizens.

Why are you so oposed to a nation becoming a sovereighn state? Pleas present some objective arguments.

Erm they might want out because madrid keeps repressing them... yust guessing

[Plane And Simple]

You are from Madrid arent you?

Basque are most definatly not blody spanish! Are they french also because they live in france too?

And pleas keep in mind i do not understand a ward of spanish so pleas cite english articles we can both understand. Besides: http://www.eldiario.es/catalunya/politica/Eduard-Sagarra-ciudadanos-UE-independencia_0_433957439.html, from what i gather with google translate it says catalonians will remain citizens of spain since spain cant just take that away cuz its buthurt, therfor they remain EU citizens.

Why are you so oposed to a nation becoming a sovereighn state? Pleas present some objective arguments.

Erm they might want out because madrid keeps repressing them... yust guessing

You don't have to know where I'm from, but just so you know, I'm not from Madrid.

Here's the thing, this stuff rarely makes it to international media, as they don't want it to sound like everyone's as upset and fighting as they are. You can use google translate to get the page to be in your language.

As I said, I'm not oposed to any nation becoming independent. This particular case was presented in a very bad way to the government, and as such, I'm against it. I'm also against brainwashing your people with completely wrong numbers in regards to the "Spain robs Cataluña" statement, by the Catalan politicians, which is basically why I'm not in favour. If you want something, show true facts and request it in the legal, proper way. If you're not going to do that, stop wasting the government's time.

Evidence on the Spanish government repressing Cataluña please? This is going nowhere

[tovaris]

You don't have to know where I'm from, but just so you know, I'm not from Madrid.

Here's the thing, this stuff rarely makes it to international media, as they don't want it to sound like everyone's as upset and fighting as they are. You can use google translate to get the page to be in your language.

As I said, I'm not oposed to any nation becoming independent. This particular case was presented in a very bad way to the government, and as such, I'm against it. I'm also against brainwashing your people with completely wrong numbers in regards to the "Spain robs Cataluña" statement, by the Catalan politicians, which is basically why I'm not in favour. If you want something, show true facts and request it in the legal, proper way. If you're not going to do that, stop wasting the government's time.

Evidence on the Spanish government repressing Cataluña please? This is going nowhere

Im am triing to atempt not to get into an emotional debate with you on this subject, if you have facts, present them.

NO google translate is a shit tool. Provide info in english, if you dont i will provide counter info in slovenian id like to see you understand that.

Now, the catalonian debt could be settled wery esely, spain could blackmain catalonia into paing it if they wanted spanish recognition.

Khm, LANGUAGE!!! The catalonian language is not eery favoured by madrid!

Also the basque identify themselves as basque no mather what country the live in, same as slovenians in Triest (italy) identify as slovenian.

There is a diference between what nation you are and what pasports you cary.

A NATION IS BOUND BY BLOD NOT COUNTRY!

“It is no nation we inhabit, but a language. Make no mistake; our native tongue is our true fatherland.”

--Emil Cioran

[Jaffe]

Do you think Catalonia should be a free country?
Mayb just form a two state fededation with castilia (and the rest).

They definitely have the right to become independent, if the majority of the population votes as such. But independence is not what they want, it is only the word they used. What they want is sovereignty, separation politically from Spain, but still with all the benefits of being an autonomous region as they are now. They want to continue to receive money and support, but without having to account for it.

So yes, they have that right… but if they want to be independent, they do not have the right to ask for all the concessions and financial benefits.

And, if they are independent, they would need to meet the criteria to enter the EU as an independent nation.

[tovaris]

They definitely have the right to become independent, if the majority of the population votes as such. But independence is not what they want, it is only the word they used. What they want is sovereignty, separation politically from Spain, but still with all the benefits of being an autonomous region as they are now. They want to continue to receive money and support, but without having to account for it.

So yes, they have that right… but if they want to be independent, they do not have the right to ask for all the concessions and financial benefits.

And, if they are independent, they would need to meet the criteria to enter the EU as an independent nation.

Whel yes, but the way i see it anything else but their independence is controled by spain who wont give them anything if they declare independence, so i do not see hat as a problem. Countris split up all the time and the debt of the country,asets and the debt to the country are split acordingly.
They wouldnt have time meting criteri they alredy do, they could br in EU in les than 4 years, the major obsticle for that is Spin who might simply block them.