Linguistic Purism

[Judean Zealot]

Do any of you feel that your native tongue (or even an acquired one) is being corrupted by foreign elements, either by cultural dominance or simply careless colloquial idiom?

As a Hebrew speaker, I'm positively disgusted by what Modern Hebrew has done and continues to do to the beautiful language that is Classical Hebrew.

I would go into the details, but I doubt to many of you are interested, so I'll just very broadly lay out my issues: the actual structure of the words (the genitive case being all but eliminated in nouns, and declensions in verbs being drastically cut down on), vowelization (with the emphatic consonants of h, 'a, and others being cut out, despite the havoc that plays on the definitions of the words, the alveolar trill of 'r' replaced with the Western European uvular trill, and the vowels being 'hardened' to sound more like Indo-European languages, as well as less usage of vowels to decline verbs), and superfluous loan words (primarily from English or Arabic) that replace the proper Hebrew form and distort the aesthetic of the entire sentence.

To me it is simply disturbing because the Hebrew language has been preserved by us for so long in our scholarly works and liturgy that it is such a shame to lose it now. In addition, the brevity and conciseness of ancient Hebrew appeals greatly to me, but has been the primary casualty of our linguistic revisionism. And finally, the sounds of the language as spoken now is simply crude and harsh on the ear.

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Does anybody else here feel like their language is being corrupted?

[phuckphace]

English is a prime example of this, but we've been screwing with it for centuries really

it would be neat if English were more Germanic, as I've mentioned before I like how German can form compounds with native words rather than borrow them from Latin, Greek or French like English does.

at the same time, I can kind of see why linguistic purism hasn't really caught on in English. saying "list" instead of "art" is one thing, but then you've got constructions like "speechlore" and "forthgoings" that sound totally goofy and not unlike something a Hogwarts alumni would say.

[Judean Zealot]

English is a prime example of this, but we've been screwing with it for centuries really

it would be neat if English were more Germanic, as I've mentioned before I like how German can form compounds with native words rather than borrow them from Latin, Greek or French like English does.

at the same time, I can kind of see why linguistic purism hasn't really caught on in English. saying "list" instead of "art" is one thing, but then you've got constructions like "speechlore" and "forthgoings" that sound totally goofy and not unlike something a Hogwarts alumni would say.

English is really a mutt language to begin with, based primarily on Latin, German, and Greek.

English has gone through so many radically different forms from Beowulf to the present that I'd imagine it's pretty hard to come up with an English purism (although I am vaguely aware of such groups' existence).

What I definitely can see though, is a reaction against the language's vulgarization and simplification.

[Porpoise101]

Sometimes linguistic purism seems overblown especially to me in the case of Québécois French because the use some weird constructions that aren't in standard French. But I'm in no place to complain as I'm an Anglo-imperialist. I suppose that northern Indian languages are interesting especially with Hindi and Urdu. Urdu is more willing to adopt Persian and Arab sayings while Hindi looks to Sanskrit.

[Stronk Serb]

Modern Serbian is full of that crap. I grew up on Serbian as in classical, the one they use for books, and when I walk out to the street I need a fucking street dictionary to decioher that the guy asked me for a cigarette. I mean, sure, adopt some words from Turkish, the ones that sound cool anyway, but try to keep the language pure, they don't say 'language guards borders better than soldiers' for nothing.

[lliam]

Some traditional oriented linguists claim that the German language is overloaded with foreign words from other languages or so.

And to the chagrin of English-speaking visitors, German is (felt) anglified about 50%.

[dxcxdzv]

Don't you think it is a natural process?

[Xawarus]

I don't like how more and more english words come to the german language. We don't invent new german words, we mostly just use the english ones for new things. Also we even invent new english words for things. It's pretty stupid if you ask me, especially becuase german is a very beautiful and dynamic language and it wouldn't be that hard to invent new german words.

[Porpoise101]

Don't you think it is a natural process?
It is totally artificial because people often do it on purpose. Some languages insist purity because of a nationalist desire. Some because of conquest. Other because of "too much" cultural influence and trade. These things are all resultant from human activity and thus artificial.

Some languages have been really marginalized like Breton, Welsh, and native languages in the US. I wonder if they openly adopt conventions from their oppressors or if they openly reject them instead.

[Judean Zealot]

Don't you think it is a natural process?

It generally is, although that doesn't mean that one can't react to it.

[Miserabilia]

My own language is heavily influenced by enlgish to the point where I know the enlighs word for something more often than my own, most of my thinking is in english aswell. This is mostly because of the internet/media.

[Karkat]

English is a lost cause. Lmao. It's a really dumb language to begin with.

As far as Spanish and Portuguese are concerned, I've always liked both slang/dialect forms of the language as well as more formal/pure forms. So eh, idc

[Porpoise101]

My own language is heavily influenced by enlgish to the point where I know the enlighs word for something more often than my own, most of my thinking is in english aswell. This is mostly because of the internet/media.
Are you Dutch? At least they gave English the word 'cookie,' because that is a massive contribution in and of itself.

[Jean Poutine]

Sometimes linguistic purism seems overblown especially to me in the case of Québécois French because the use some weird constructions that aren't in standard French.

Name one.

It's the Académie who's a disgrace, not the OQLF.

[dxcxdzv]

Name one.

It's the Académie who's a disgrace, not the OQLF.

Écouter un film = listen (to) a movie
Pis = and
Expressions that not exist in French-French.
And there is a lot of structural differences between them.

What do you have against the French Academy?

[Porpoise101]

Name one.

It's the Académie who's a disgrace, not the OQLF.
You can say j'suis. That is alien in itself.

[Miserabilia]

Are you Dutch? At least they gave English the word 'cookie,' because that is a massive contribution in and of itself.

I am and yes that is my greatest pride :yes: :P

[lliam]

Don't you think it is a natural process?


Of course it is. Language is always changing. Especially nowadays where every language is more affected of other languages and cultures than in older times or so.

But from the perspective of English visitors some public notices on signs etc are often incomprehensible, because the people who created such terms, often literally translate the English words from its German sense or so.

Replacing German words just with English words, but without knowing its real meaning of the used context in English ... I find that rather stupid.

That's (e.g) the prob that I have, if I want to express something complex as a post understandable in English. However, I would never use this English version in German, cause it's common to found it cooler or so.

I think it makes no sense to integrate the literal meaning of a foreign language in your own language if words as phrases have a completely different meaning in the foreign language than in your own language.

At least, hopefully half of this post is understandable. ^^

[Capto]

Corrupted by foreign elements.

I mean sure, katakana exists in its modern context for a reason. Given the rigidity of kanji (a result from its direct derivation from hanzi and resultantly the structure of the [Mandarin] Chinese language), I really don't see the problem with loanwords provided that the structural and grammatical integrity of the language is kept intact.

Though fuck that, 'cuz 鹿児島弁.

[Jean Poutine]

Écouter un film = listen (to) a movie
Pis = and
Expressions that not exist in French-French.
And there is a lot of structural differences between them.

What do you have against the French Academy?

Only in spoken variants. It makes almost no sense to talk about spoken purism because the spoken language is in constant evolution, unlike the written norms (especially when it comes to French, which exhibits something close to diglossia between its written and spoken language). There cannot be a 100% pure spoken language.

If you want to be a dick about it, at least compare apples with apples. Compare informal Quebec French with informal continental French, not with the written norm. Don't even try and pretend you guys speak as you write because that's absolutely not true and you know it too.

Besides, linguistic purism tends to refer to the removal of foreign influence from the language (thus Icelandic language purism is not about speaking Old Norse, but creating neologisms from the language's roots instead of borrowing them outright). OP is talking about the foreign influence of Yiddish and other tongues on the revived Hebrew (and it's true modern Hebrew's phonological inventory is much closer to Yiddish than to anything resembling a Semitic language), so I think it's fair to think he wasn't talking about natural innovation brought on by usage.

The Académie is a disgrace because it takes forever to coin neologisms and because when it finally does come up with some, it's 95% of the time stupid shit, ie. mél for email when courriel exists, or words that don't catch on because they suck. Do you guys still use tchat for clavardage?

You can say j'suis. That is alien in itself.

See above, and so do the French, by the way. What's your point?

[Porpoise101]

Only in spoken variants. It makes almost no sense to talk about spoken purism because the spoken language is in constant evolution, unlike the written norms (especially when it comes to French, which exhibits something close to diglossia between its written and spoken language). There cannot be a 100% pure spoken language.

If you want to be a dick about it, at least compare apples with apples. Compare informal Quebec French with informal continental French, not with the written norm. Don't even try and pretend you guys speak as you write because that's absolutely not true and you know it too.

Besides, linguistic purism tends to refer to the removal of foreign influence from the language (thus Icelandic language purism is not about speaking Old Norse, but creating neologisms from the language's roots instead of borrowing them outright). OP is talking about the foreign influence of Yiddish and other tongues on the revived Hebrew (and it's true modern Hebrew's phonological inventory is much closer to Yiddish than to anything resembling a Semitic language), so I think it's fair to think he wasn't talking about natural innovation brought on by usage.

The Académie is a disgrace because it takes forever to coin neologisms and because when it finally does come up with some, it's 95% of the time stupid shit, ie. mél for email when courriel exists, or words that don't catch on because they suck. Do you guys still use tchat for clavardage?



See above, and so do the French, by the way. What's your point?
Why call it French? If it is so different and if you guys hate the standard so much, then why not call it a different language and celebrate a unique identity specific to the province of Quebec?

[dxcxdzv]

Jean Poutine : Why are you so aggressive? Seriously. I'm not trying to prove anything. It's just that french "québecquois" is different than french-french. It doesn't mean it's wrong or anything, just different. And I think it is great, we are not linguistic imperialists (no more at least).

So I don't think neither the French Academy or the OQLF are wrong. But if you try to discredit french at the advantage of québecquois that means YOU are the dick bro.

Spoken and written french are different yes, and so what's the problem?

The mission of the French Academy is to fix the rules of french language and ensure a rational evolution of it.

Mais si tu veux croire que le québecquois est "meilleur" que le français (de France), libre à toi. J'en ai pas grand chose à foutre à vrai dire.

[Jean Poutine]

Why call it French? If it is so different and if you guys hate the standard so much, then why not call it a different language and celebrate a unique identity specific to the province of Quebec?

What are you going on about? Where did I ever write that I hate standard French?

I'm starting to wonder if I have four hands here, because the capacity of some posters here to attribute words I haven't typed to my fingers is surprisingly on point. Damn, son.

Jean Poutine : Why are you so aggressive? Seriously. I'm not trying to prove anything. It's just that french "québecquois" is different than french-french. It doesn't mean it's wrong or anything, just different. And I think it is great, we are not linguistic imperialists (no more at least).

So I don't think neither the French Academy or the OQLF are wrong. But if you try to discredit french at the advantage of québecquois that means YOU are the dick bro.

Spoken and written french are different yes, and so what's the problem?

The mission of the French Academy is to fix the rules of french language and ensure a rational evolution of it.

Mais si tu veux croire que le québecquois est "meilleur" que le français (de France), libre à toi. J'en ai pas grand chose à foutre à vrai dire.

You asked me why I thought the Académie française is dumb, I told you why : their pace is glacial and they are too busy picking fights where there is no problem (such as insisting a female president should be called Madame le président). I also think mél, which is a simple abbreviation of message électronique, is a far worse neologism than courriel, which is not only euphonious and a damn good portmanteau, but also allows variations like pourriel "spam mail".

Can you now understand the difference? I'm not saying "x variety of French is better than y variety", I'm saying one regulating body does a better job than the other in regards to neologisms. A viewpoint that you asked I elaborate upon. Seriously, I don't get the tears.

As far as language quality goes, I'll quote you the same thing I wrote in the other thread : « un Français se gare dans un parking, un Québécois se parque dans un stationnement. » I agree that they're different, not better or worse, but that's not how you came off. I've seen that sanctimonious shit a thousand times already where Frenchmen would butt in and point out how spoken Quebec French is different than the written norm and worse for it, while neglecting to take into account that they do not speak as they write either. That's called a false equivalence and it is always a dick move. I'm sorry if that wasn't your intent but that's not a territory I care to enter for the 1001th time.

[Porpoise101]

What are you going on about? Where did I ever write that I hate standard French?

I'm starting to wonder if I have four hands here, because the capacity of some posters here to attribute words I haven't typed to my fingers is surprisingly on point. Damn, son.


You said you didn't like the standardizing body. But seriously why don't you just make it your own language? You guys already have half the job done as you have a regulating body.

[dxcxdzv]

C'mon I was trolling concerning the pure french.
Don't take things too seriously.

You may not agree with the French Academy, it's up to you; i don't think you've got the same level as the Immortals but you're totally free to not trust in it.

Et puis bon, un seul exemple ne peut démonter quatre siècles de réflexion sur l'évolution de la langue française. Le Québecois dérive du "pur français" dans le sens où il dérive du français originel, sans pour autant que ce soit bon ou mauvais. Mais que ne te prenne pas l'envie de discréditer l'Académie Française sous prétexte que tu te considères potentiellement puriste de cette langue selon une base québécoise.

But don't worry, I agree with you, I'm a godamn bastard.

[Jean Poutine]

You said you didn't like the standardizing body. But seriously why don't you just make it your own language? You guys already have half the job done as you have a regulating body.

A regulating body =/= a language. I don't see how my not liking a certain regulating body's recent work is synonymous with hating a whole language.

C'mon I was trolling concerning the pure french.
Don't take things too seriously.

You may not agree with the French Academy, it's up to you; i don't think you've got the same level as the Immortals but you're totally free to not trust in it.

Et puis bon, un seul exemple ne peut démonter quatre siècles de réflexion sur l'évolution de la langue française. Le Québecois dérive du "pur français" dans le sens où il dérive du français originel, sans pour autant que ce soit bon ou mauvais. Mais que ne te prenne pas l'envie de discréditer l'Académie Française sous prétexte que tu te considères potentiellement puriste de cette langue selon une base québécoise.

But don't worry, I agree with you, I'm a godamn bastard.

Yes, well, I've seen it written seriously so many times I don't even care to tell the difference anymore.

I'm not saying the whole of the Académie française work is absolutely worthless but I do think that lately they have been dropping the ball and tend to be very slow to react to new changes. I don't think I have to be an Immortel myself to recognize this. I think the OQLF is more vibrant and its neologisms and changes have been on point recently.

I am a purist (and a hardcore one at that) in the sense that I try to avoid and denounce foreign loans in the language - from where the solution comes from I care not, as long as it is good. I think logiciel was on point and that was an Académie creation.

[Porpoise101]

A regulating body =/= a language. I don't see how my not liking a certain regulating body's recent work is synonymous with hating a whole language.
First, I said you hated the standards not the actual French language. Second, the regulating body makes standards for a language, so if you simultaneously denounce the Académie and say you like another group instead for their work I had to come to the conclusion that you don't like their standards.

[EvanGr]

Well, I am Greek. The Greek language, although it can "hellenize" foreign words, this doesn't really happen the last years, so it is very common to listen to many adjectives, nouns, swears, even whole sentences from English. I even catch up myself saying "What the fuck?" many times and, personally, I am not very proud of that. Sure, due to globalization, languages start borrowing elements from each other, but English is unfairly doing so, at the point I may call it a devastating harm.

And it gets even more strange, when you think Greek has given many words, I mean a lot, to other languages, mostly European ones, while today Greek takes a ton of English words without even creating a "greek" cover and offering them openly. I don't like it. You can use other words instead.

[tovaris]

YES!
Our language (slovenian) has been under fire - espacely srom the anglo-sakson race - since the 8th century A. D. and is facing stronger and stronger chalanges with the uprize of globalization, and the fact many of our people got trapped on the other side of the borders (Austria, Italy, Hungary). We should make sure we also find domestic alternatives to foreighn words (selfie, CD, ...).



English is a prime example of this, but we've been screwing with it for centuries really

/.../



This is also quite noticeable in the screwed image of English grammar.




Modern Serbian is full of that crap. I grew up on Serbian as in classical, the one they use for books, and when I walk out to the street I need a fucking street dictionary to decioher that the guy asked me for a cigarette. I mean, sure, adopt some words from Turkish, the ones that sound cool anyway, but try to keep the language pure, they don't say 'language guards borders better than soldiers' for nothing.



It makes me weary sad sometimes when I watch Dnevnik (for our English speakers that's daly news) on RTS (for our English speakers that's National TV station). When they say stuff like: "lideri", and "sajt" and al sorts of shit like that. Protect my bloody language Serbia!

[tonymontana99]

Do any of you feel that your native tongue (or even an acquired one) is being corrupted by foreign elements, either by cultural dominance or simply careless colloquial idiom?

As a Hebrew speaker, I'm positively disgusted by what Modern Hebrew has done and continues to do to the beautiful language that is Classical Hebrew.

I would go into the details, but I doubt to many of you are interested, so I'll just very broadly lay out my issues: the actual structure of the words (the genitive case being all but eliminated in nouns, and declensions in verbs being drastically cut down on), vowelization (with the emphatic consonants of h, 'a, and others being cut out, despite the havoc that plays on the definitions of the words, the alveolar trill of 'r' replaced with the Western European uvular trill, and the vowels being 'hardened' to sound more like Indo-European languages, as well as less usage of vowels to decline verbs), and superfluous loan words (primarily from English or Arabic) that replace the proper Hebrew form and distort the aesthetic of the entire sentence.

To me it is simply disturbing because the Hebrew language has been preserved by us for so long in our scholarly works and liturgy that it is such a shame to lose it now. In addition, the brevity and conciseness of ancient Hebrew appeals greatly to me, but has been the primary casualty of our linguistic revisionism. And finally, the sounds of the language as spoken now is simply crude and harsh on the ear.

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Does anybody else here feel like their language is being corrupted?

Interesting subject. The latest Metal Gear Solid (The Phantom Pain) game's antagonist was motivated by this perticular subject. Skull Face, as he was called, grew up in a small village that had been raided. He spent his life being forced to speak the languages that each new army that dominated the last one's spoke. He said it that he felt like his cultural and historical heritage had been robbed. He even quoted a philosopher:

“It is no nation we inhabit, but a language. Make no mistake; our native tongue is our true fatherland.”

--Emil Cioran