televangelism and megachurches

[phuckphace]

despite being an atheist, I have nothing against religious faith and in fact consider it largely beneficial to people. however, there's something particularly despicable about the way Americans love to twist religion into a vehicle to make money, as we are very fond of doing with everything we can get our hands on. if something exists, you can pretty much bet there's an American somewhere thinking "how can I turn this into MAD SKRILLA?"

televangelism is a highly visible form of this cancer, and is of course an almost exclusively American phenomenon. fraudsters who masquerade as evangelists and pastors take complete and total advantage of our broken tax code to set up "non-profit" religious organizations that fleece their followers for insane amounts of cash, 100% tax free. it's so ubiquitous that, if I were religious, it would make me seriously afraid of white-hot divine retribution, Sodom-style. it's obvious to me that these shysters are probably not even real practising Christians, Jimmy Swaggart (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Swaggart) being one notorious example. Jim Bakker (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Bakker) admitted that the first time he actually read the Bible all the way through was during his stint in the slammer for tax/accounting fraud. I'm not quite sure how someone can go a good portion of their adult life while calling themselves a Christian without ever having seriously read the Bible. it's a very, very elaborate pageant.

you can also count me as someone who doesn't believe that megachurches are actually "real" churches. to me, a church is a place of worship for the community in the immediate area, and their sheer size makes them incompatible with the concept of community-worship. given the number of people who attend, it's entirely possible that you could attend every Sunday for an entire year and never meet the same people twice. that makes them indistinguishable from huge sports events at stadiums (including the amount of money both pull in). I've never been in a megachurch and don't plan on ever attending, but even from afar it doesn't look like a place where someone could engage in meaningful worship. too much blaring noise and waaaay too many bloomin' people.

gonna just end this by saying that if the IRS ever woke up one day and decided to collectively revoke their tax exempt status, I'd be the first to give a thumbs up. phuck 'em.

[Miserabilia]

I can not aggree more. It's a shame that a church which can be a great cultural community thing seems to be a massive commercialized busines in the USA.

[Microcosm]

In school the other day we were talking about how the Catholic Church sold indulgences way back when. Although it was so long ago, it can still be said I think that a lot of places do this. America just gets more attention for it and does it more often.

[phuckphace]

In school the other day we were talking about how the Catholic Church sold indulgences way back when. Although it was so long ago, it can still be said I think that a lot of places do this. America just gets more attention for it and does it more often.

I'm more referring to the "iChurch 2.0" format that is very, very common in the US and in fact was probably invented here. sure, religious leaders of questionable character have always found ways to bullshit people out of their money, but in 2015 America it's especially blatant and shameless. "prosperity theology" in particular, if you're not rich you must not be a True Christian (cf. "if you aren't a billionaire you probably aren't working hard enough.") something about American culture seems to have a potent corrupting influence on anything it touches and not even the Bible is safe.

I've also heard of entrepreneurial "pastors" (Americans, of course) doing surveys in wealthy areas and asking rich residents what sort of church they'd like to have and what kind of theology they'd like to hear in it. and here I always thought that the truth isn't relative and can't just be whatever you'd like it to be, but then I remembered that it's literally the 21st century and we don't do that "universal truth" nonsense anymore

[Judean Zealot]

This type of crap is what happens when people shift their attentions from their intellect to their bellies and penises.

[DriveAlive]

Did you see the episode of Last Week Tonight with John Oliver where they talked baout this very topic and then just to prove how easy it was for these people to be tax-exempt, they filed the tv show as a religion with the IRS.

[Bull]

I enjoy the community worship in the small congregation of which I am a part. We exist because we share common beliefs founded in scripture. We are not part of any major denomination though we embrace other congregations who share our broad Christian beliefs. I give to the support of my local church. Mega churches and televangelism are a turn off. FYI I grew up attending a Southern Baptist Church. I am grateful for the Biblical teaching I received, however, I find I can not embrace the fundamentalism that pervades the leadership.

[ImCoolBeans]

I think churches/religious affiliated groups who use their religion as a money making scheme are despicable, but this isn't just an issue with Americans. Throughout history and in different cultures this has also been an issue. In the 16th century the church was extremely corrupt and was selling 'indulgences' to absolve people of sin -- in other words "buy this slip of paper and you can cut the line to get into heaven, but don't lose it!" This prompted Martin Luther to write the 95 Theses, and Protestantism was founded as a correction to what what were seen as 'errors' in the Catholic church.

In the 19th century in Mexico the Catholic church owned approximately 25% of all of the country's land, controlled almost every school, hospital, and charitable organization. The church made it so expensive to bury the dead and hold any kind of service or memorial that the vast majority of people in Mexico could not afford it. The church would take care of the expenses and more or less call you their slave for the rest of your life or until the fee was paid off, which they made sure was never. Mexico eventually fought one of their many civil wars over this because it had basically become a church state.

[SethfromMI]

despite being an atheist, I have nothing against religious faith and in fact consider it largely beneficial to people. however, there's something particularly despicable about the way Americans love to twist religion into a vehicle to make money, as we are very fond of doing with everything we can get our hands on. if something exists, you can pretty much bet there's an American somewhere thinking "how can I turn this into MAD SKRILLA?"

televangelism is a highly visible form of this cancer, and is of course an almost exclusively American phenomenon. fraudsters who masquerade as evangelists and pastors take complete and total advantage of our broken tax code to set up "non-profit" religious organizations that fleece their followers for insane amounts of cash, 100% tax free. it's so ubiquitous that, if I were religious, it would make me seriously afraid of white-hot divine retribution, Sodom-style. it's obvious to me that these shysters are probably not even real practising Christians, Jimmy Swaggart (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Swaggart) being one notorious example. Jim Bakker (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Bakker) admitted that the first time he actually read the Bible all the way through was during his stint in the slammer for tax/accounting fraud. I'm not quite sure how someone can go a good portion of their adult life while calling themselves a Christian without ever having seriously read the Bible. it's a very, very elaborate pageant.

you can also count me as someone who doesn't believe that megachurches are actually "real" churches. to me, a church is a place of worship for the community in the immediate area, and their sheer size makes them incompatible with the concept of community-worship. given the number of people who attend, it's entirely possible that you could attend every Sunday for an entire year and never meet the same people twice. that makes them indistinguishable from huge sports events at stadiums (including the amount of money both pull in). I've never been in a megachurch and don't plan on ever attending, but even from afar it doesn't look like a place where someone could engage in meaningful worship. too much blaring noise and waaaay too many bloomin' people.

gonna just end this by saying that if the IRS ever woke up one day and decided to collectively revoke their tax exempt status, I'd be the first to give a thumbs up. phuck 'em.

I will say not all of them are bad or dishonest. that being said, there are often so many bad ones, you don't get to hear about the good and honest ones

[Miserabilia]

I think churches/religious affiliated groups who use their religion as a money making scheme are despicable, but this isn't just an issue with Americans. Throughout history and in different cultures this has also been an issue. In the 16th century the church was extremely corrupt and was selling 'indulgences' to absolve people of sin -- in other words "buy this slip of paper and you can cut the line to get into heaven, but don't lose it!" This prompted Martin Luther to write the 95 Theses, and Protestantism was founded as a correction to what what were seen as 'errors' in the Catholic church.

.

Oh my! I remember learning about indulgences in school and not beleiving it (how could anyone sell that/ buyers be that stupid? )
But I guess in a way we still do it.

[mattsmith48]

The only thing they want is to make money out of desperate people

[Babs]

I agree. I don't know why people pour their money into quacks they see on TV.

[Judean Zealot]

I agree. I don't know why people pour their money into quacks they see on TV.

Probably for the same reason they give their votes to quacks they see on TV.

[phuckphace]

God/the free market will fix it if you donate money/cut taxes

p.spooky eh?

[Judean Zealot]

You have no idea how hard I just laughed at that. Idk why, I just found that very funny.

[mattsmith48]

I will say not all of them are bad or dishonest. that being said, there are often so many bad ones, you don't get to hear about the good and honest ones

How is taking advanced of desperate people for their money good?

[phuckphace]

John Hagee reminds me of the High Septon of Westeros (that one scene where he's "administering" to the harlots) :lol3:

[Arkansasguy]

despite being an atheist, I have nothing against religious faith and in fact consider it largely beneficial to people. however, there's something particularly despicable about the way Americans love to twist religion into a vehicle to make money, as we are very fond of doing with everything we can get our hands on. if something exists, you can pretty much bet there's an American somewhere thinking "how can I turn this into MAD SKRILLA?"

televangelism is a highly visible form of this cancer, and is of course an almost exclusively American phenomenon. fraudsters who masquerade as evangelists and pastors take complete and total advantage of our broken tax code to set up "non-profit" religious organizations that fleece their followers for insane amounts of cash, 100% tax free. it's so ubiquitous that, if I were religious, it would make me seriously afraid of white-hot divine retribution, Sodom-style. it's obvious to me that these shysters are probably not even real practising Christians, Jimmy Swaggart (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Swaggart) being one notorious example. Jim Bakker (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Bakker) admitted that the first time he actually read the Bible all the way through was during his stint in the slammer for tax/accounting fraud. I'm not quite sure how someone can go a good portion of their adult life while calling themselves a Christian without ever having seriously read the Bible. it's a very, very elaborate pageant.

you can also count me as someone who doesn't believe that megachurches are actually "real" churches. to me, a church is a place of worship for the community in the immediate area, and their sheer size makes them incompatible with the concept of community-worship. given the number of people who attend, it's entirely possible that you could attend every Sunday for an entire year and never meet the same people twice. that makes them indistinguishable from huge sports events at stadiums (including the amount of money both pull in). I've never been in a megachurch and don't plan on ever attending, but even from afar it doesn't look like a place where someone could engage in meaningful worship. too much blaring noise and waaaay too many bloomin' people.

gonna just end this by saying that if the IRS ever woke up one day and decided to collectively revoke their tax exempt status, I'd be the first to give a thumbs up. phuck 'em.

Some of them even charge money for admission. It's what happens when anyone can simply appoint themselves a pastor.

In school the other day we were talking about how the Catholic Church sold indulgences way back when. Although it was so long ago, it can still be said I think that a lot of places do this. America just gets more attention for it and does it more often.

The Catholic Church did not sell indulgences. It used to make pious donations an indulgences activity. Also, indulgences don't forgive sins, they remove purgatory due to already forgiven sins. And they're still practiced, although all indulgences involving monetary transactions were abolished in the 16th century.

[Judean Zealot]

Arkansasguy

It's always a good idea to go easy on misinformed members (and especially moderators). Microcosm is fully capable of dialogue.

[Arkansasguy]

Arkansasguy

It's always a good idea to go easy on misinformed members (and especially moderators). Microcosm is fully capable of dialogue.

You're right. After correcting that canard so many times, it gets harder to remember that whoever it is this time has never been unmisinformed.

[Vlerchan]

The Catholic Church did not sell indulgences. It used to make pious donations an indulgences activity.
Before the 1900s - I believe - indulgences referred to a quantified reduction in the time to be spent in purgatory. When it came to donations, was there a general link between the value of the donation and the quantification of this time?

If not - how was the reduction quantified?

[Arkansasguy]

Before the 1900s - I believe - indulgences referred to a quantified reduction in the time to be spent in purgatory. When it came to donations, was there a general link between the value of the donation and the quantification of this time?

If not - how was the reduction quantified?

You misunderstand, before the mid-20th century, lengths of time were attached to partial indulgences, but if an indulgence was say, 100 days, that didn't mean it would take 100 days off of purgatory, rather it would remove the same amount of purgatory as 100 days of canonical penance in the early Church would have. The Church never identified specific amounts of purgatory that would be removed.

My understanding (not completely sure on this point) is that the amount usually was not specified. A donation of any amount would be sufficient for the granting of the indulgence (whether plenary or X days).

[Hyper]

This stype of stuff isn't exclusive to the US by a long shot, at least not anymore...

Psychic surgeries in Asia (not sure if this is as big of a thing as it was in the 80s and 90s), teleevangelist BShit is in Europe and rampant in some Asian countries, all sorts of fortune teller hotline crap is running rampant everywhere, all sorts of healing etc etc...

I'm not an atheist or a hardcore skeptic. But I do not approve of people being fooled or cheated and it seems to be going on more than ever actually. ''Woo woo'' has become not just a superstition but an entertainment industry - all these stupid psychic shows and so on.

[Uniquemind]

My take on it is that it is mostly a money business thing (A highly successful/profitable and immoral one at that) that plays to people's emotional guilt and alleviation of that guilt.

Because it's a money business thing, it negates any spiritual or even religious redemption factor.

It's like the advent of televangelism, is a money cult, with only symbolic acts of good to keep their followers loyally brainwashed to thinking they actually are good things and preach what they say.

To be honest any Christian or Catholic televangelism, is dishonest because such an institution using the Bible, directly contradicts Jesus' in a pissed off mood throwing the "moneychangers" out of the Temple of God.

That means you can't merge capitalistic concepts (money in this case) with the Christian/Catholic faith.

Attempting to do so violates the Word of God.

Therefore televangelism is a fraud, and if you know someone who is seeking it out, it means they have guilt problems for whatever.

Imho it's best if one just admits their evil, and just runs with it in an honest liberated way. That to me is better than getting sucked into televangelism, anybody who has an old relative who got sucked into that, is well weird and it's weird being around them.