Abortion

[ObliviousCat]

I'll probably receive a lot of backlash on this, but oh well. I'm not here to have a heated argument with anyone. I just want to know what everyone's views are on this topic and I think it's fair to share my own. :) Also, I was quite surprised when I didn't see a thread on this already.


//
I believe it should be up to the woman bearing the child and her doctor and those two people only (and perhaps the father if he is around). The pregnant mother knows what is best for herself and the baby that could or could not come. She knows more than anyone else of her mental stability, physical health, financial issues, etc. Furthermore, the doctor will know more than anyone else if this is a healthy choice for the mother. A doctor will have a full medical history of the patient and, if the abortion would be life-threatening to the patient, wouldn't allow it.
However, I am not for late-term abortion. I think that having an abortion this late is irresponsible on the mother's end as there's really no excuse for not knowing of the pregnancy. The exception for this is the rare case of being pregnant without missing a period and not forming a belly - which has happened.



I believe that making abortion illegal (in the US) would be a very, very bad decision. If gun laws and drug laws don’t stop people from getting guns and drugs, how could abortion laws stop women from getting abortions? It will only stop safe and legal abortions, and increase the death in women (not to mention suicide rates). In 1857, the American Medical Association launched a campaign to make abortion illegal at all stages. The campaign failed to stop abortions and, instead, the rate of death in women increased critically due to them turning to underground or self abortions.

A true pro-life movement should aim to reduce the rate of abortion by promoting sex education and ensuring easy access to contraceptives to reduce the rate of unintended pregnancies, not diminish women’s rights. "Every year, six million American women are impregnated with more than half of them being unintended."

Also and furthermore, if a woman decides to intervene with the fertilization process, that should not be considered nor made illegal. Abortion at the stage of conception kills the potential of a human being, not an actual human.
Using this logic, you would be saying that masturbation and ovulation is murder. The potential for a human being is present in almost every sperm a man ejaculates and in the eggs that the women of childbearing age shed each month.
//


So, those are my views on abortion. What are yours?
What are your views on birth control methods such as the condom and contraceptive pills?
Are your views due to religious reasons or does it not affect your opinion on this?

[Vlerchan]

Legalise - at all stages - on request. But provide sex ed. and contraception to minimise numbers.

Here we go again.

[Abhorrence]

Abortion should definitely be legal, I mean when it wasn't legal weren't there loads of backstreet abortions that were extremely dangerous? There's no point in making it illegal and I don't know about the US but I doubt that it's going to be made illegal in the UK any time soon. I also think that women should be allowed to have an abortion for whatever reason they want to, it's their body afterall. However, I'm not sure how late I'd think it's acceptable. I mean having a really late abortion could be traumatising to say the least.

[thegreatgatz]

Most of the time, the people who are stupid enough to not protect adequately and get pregnant shouldn't be reproducing and passing on their and their partners stupidity genes, so I'm all for it.

[mattsmith48]

like @OblibiousCat I think its the woman's choice to do what she thinks is the best of her and the baby the father can say what he thinks but the final decision goes to the mother. If she is not ready to have a baby whether its for financial reason not only to raise him but also if you live somewhere where there is no health care giving birth can cost up to $10k if she is not ready mentally to have a baby or the pregnancy could put the mother at risk.

I think it should be legal and its alright to do it for non medical reason until 22 weeks which is when the fetus start to move. If its for medical reason like the baby could have a terrible disease and he would suffer all his life and couldn't live a normal life or giving birth or the pregnancy it self could put the mother at risk its fine to do it after 22 weeks.

But you should use contraception so you won't have to get an abortion the planet is already over populated we don't need stupid people not protecting them self and make unwanted babies.

Also want to say you can't be against abortion but being for the use of condoms or birth control and you can't masturbate or have oral sex and the only place a men for abortion is aloud to cum is inside the girl.

[ObliviousCat]

Most of the time, the people who are stupid enough to not protect adequately and get pregnant shouldn't be reproducing and passing on their and their partners stupidity genes, so I'm all for it.


What if the woman was on oral contraceptives but it failed or she was raped?

[thegreatgatz]

What if the woman was on oral contraceptives but it failed or she was raped?

It applies to rape, because our society shouldn't encourage women to retain rape babies for this and many other reasons, which unlike it may be more ethical in nature

The genetics of rapists may be severely psychotic if they rape people.

[mattsmith48]

What if the woman was on oral contraceptives but it failed or she was raped?

If there raped they should be having an abortion.
if by oral contraceptive you mean the pill it as the same effectiveness then condoms so odds it fails are really low but it can happen if it failed its her choice

[Interstellar]

Not to be "that guy" but I am appalled that so many people here are pro-choice. An abortion, no matter what the woman's reasons for having it are, is murder - point blank. It is the killing of an innocent human being (and yes, a fetus is a person) with the same rights as you and me that has absolutely no way to defend itself. Saying abortion should be legal is like saying murder should be legal, but apparently a lot of you would like that ;)

[Rydar8]

just like Interstellar said, A fetus is a person, a completely defenseless person, so its murder. Murder is illegal, therefore so should abortion. Life is a beautiful thing, why take it away from anyone, even if they were made accidently.

[mattsmith48]

Interstellar @Ryday8 do you think there is any situation in which a woman having an abortion or it should be illegal no mater what the reason is?

[Interstellar]

Interstellar @Ryday8 do you think there is any situation in which a woman having an abortion or it should be illegal no mater what the reason is?

I believe that there's no reason that would be able to justify having an abortion. To keep using the same analogy, there's no situations that make murder legal, so why should there be ones that make abortions legal? Plus, allowing it in only certain situations would IMO lead to a lot more gray areas than there already are.

[Kirina]

Then a innocent 14 year old is raped and due to health issues it is highly likely that giving birth will kill her. This 14 year old is a prodigy in science and can be key to many advancements that will greatly benefit our planet. I'd rather keep the 14yo.

There is economy. "We" wouldn't want a child to be born into a home with parentes that can't properly provide for it.

There are everyone who made a mistake and don't want to be parents, maybe not even suitable for the responsibilities. Maybe one or both of the parents are mentally unstable and turn abusive, think about all the terrible things happening to the child (abuse can go by unnoticed for years).

and going back to street abortions, whether it's because of rape or just irresponsible people is a can of worms that we should strive to keep closed.

[Desuetude]

Not to be "that guy" but I am appalled that so many people here are pro-choice. An abortion, no matter what the woman's reasons for having it are, is murder - point blank. It is the killing of an innocent human being (and yes, a fetus is a person) with the same rights as you and me that has absolutely no way to defend itself. Saying abortion should be legal is like saying murder should be legal, but apparently a lot of you would like that ;)
What if the woman is in a bad situation? Homeless, no job, not able to financially support a baby? Would it be better for her to have this baby and raise it to become malnourised and underdeveloped? Also, if a woman has been raped would you really say that it's right to put her through that psychological torment of going through birth knowing that the baby was conceived without consent? Imagine the life of a child conceived through rape? All that kid would recieve is resentment from their mother and 99% of the time, a father they never know. I don't see a happy life for the child in either of those situations.

If you know that the child can't be brought up in a safe, loving environment then it's not right to have a baby. It's more horrifying that you're willing to put a vulnerable and deferenceless child through that kind of sitution than 'killing it' before it can get there. Also, I disagree that abortion is murder but even so, you have to admit that in some situations it would be kinder for this potential human to be aborted rather than live a life that no one should have to.

[mattsmith48]

I believe that there's no reason that would be able to justify having an abortion. To keep using the same analogy, there's no situations that make murder legal, so why should there be ones that make abortions legal? Plus, allowing it in only certain situations would IMO lead to a lot more gray areas than there already are.

Well actually in some countries if someone is dying from a terminal illness you are aloud to help them to die if thats what they want. There is even countries were they have suicide clinics where they will kill anyone that wants to die. It is a murder but its still legal.

If the mother as been raped or there is incest do you think she should keep the baby? What if the life of the mother could be in danger if she give birth to that child should she be able to get an abortion

Like ObliviousCat said if its illegal people are still gonna do it but it wont be done by professional and it could be dangerous for the mother she could even die, but if its legal there is alot less risk for the mother to do it?

[Interstellar]

What if the woman is in a bad situation? Homeless, no job, not able to financially support a baby? Would it be better for her to have this baby and raise it to become malnourised and underdeveloped? Also, if a woman has been raped would you really say that it's right to put her through that psychological torment of going through birth knowing that the baby was conceived without consent? Imagine the life of a child conceived through rape? All that kid would recieve is resentment from their mother and 99% of the time, a father they never know. I don't see a happy life for the child in either of those situations.

For the first situation, hopefully the mother would be smart enough to put the baby up for adoption or she would have family members/friends who are nice enough to care for her/the baby until she is financially stable. As far as rape goes, I'm sure most women would rather live with the thought of having an illegitimate child rather than the thought of having murdered their own child. I also know a girl who is the product of an unplanned pregnancy and her mom has shown nothing but love towards her.

If the mother as been raped or there is incest do you think she should keep the baby? What if the life of the mother could be in danger if she give birth to that child should she be able to get an abortion

Adoption is always an option (<- I rhymed!) when it comes to rape/incest. I'm no medical expert, but I believe a c-section would be able to keep both parent and child alive in the second example, correct?

[Jean Poutine]

Not only am I completely for abortion, I even think there should be mandatory abortions : when the foetus suffers from a grave genetic illness for instance.

I also think men should be able to disavow paternity completely. No financial obligations but also no paternal rights. As it stands men can be made to pay child support even if they fathered a child during statutory rape, they can be made to pay for child support even if the baby is not their own. Plus, not paying CS is one of the last ways you can be sent to that good old institution of debtor's prison.

It's unfair. Either both genders have a legal way to get out of all parental obligations or neither do. Currently the father is massively disadvantaged; his ass basically belongs to the mother. Last I heard it takes two to make a baby.

[mattsmith48]

Adoption is always an option (<- I rhymed!) when it comes to rape/incest. I'm no medical expert, but I believe a c-section would be able to keep both parent and child alive in the second example, correct?
It could be challenging mentally for the mother give birth to a child that was made because she was rape even if she put it up for adoption. For incest the kids most likely will have terrible condition because of incest and might not be able to have a normal life don't you think it would be better for the mother to abort the pregnancy instead of having the child suffer for his entire life?

I mean during the pregnancy if the mothers life is in danger for whatever reason and she could eventually die if she keep the baby. Would you rather let her have an abortion or let her die?

[DriveAlive]

I would call myself pro-choice, but every time I think about abortion, I can understand why people have such a problem with it. The reality is, you are destroying a growing fetus. It is a forming persona and you are killing it. Its not pretty and its not easy. Every time I hear someone say that it should be allowed because the mother might not be ready blah blah, all I can think is that she should have considered that earlier and the fetus shouldn't have to die because she doesn't "feel" ready. With that said, I understand that most abortions are carried out for far more serious reasons and that I would certainly not like the effect that making abortions illegal would have on society. With all things considered then, I have to say that I support the right to have an abortion.

[Kirina]

As it stands men can be made to pay child support even if they fathered a child during statutory rape, they can be made to pay for child support even if the baby is not their own.Someone I know used to be irresponsible with money so they were forced to have a "guardian" that took control over the money. He gets money weekly and not more than he needs, his money spending problems are now gone but he is still not allowed control back. This makes him depressed and he describes it as "financial rape". That it gives that feeling of being invaded of what is yours and this is constant. He has been raped so I believe his comparison.

Having to pay child support is "financial rape".

It is so horrible to see a CHILD be raped to then be raped financially for years.

[Desuetude]

For the first situation, hopefully the mother would be smart enough to put the baby up for adoption or she would have family members/friends who are nice enough to care for her/the baby until she is financially stable. As far as rape goes, I'm sure most women would rather live with the thought of having an illegitimate child rather than the thought of having murdered their own child. I also know a girl who is the product of an unplanned pregnancy and her mom has shown nothing but love towards her.
Those are very specific circumstances, key word you used being 'hopefully', having people there that may be able to care for the baby isn't always the case. What happens then? 'You're sure' yet how can you generalise 'most women' when you yourself will never have the ability to know what it feels like (also, remember that a lot of women are pro-choice and do not think that abortion is murder, therefore they won't be stuck with the thought that they have 'murdered their child'). The psychological aspect I'm talking about isn't anything to do with illegitimacy. Can you not imagine the mental torture someone must go through when they're raped? When the mother looks at their child and remembers how they were created? Rape victims spend years going through therapy trying to get over the attack yet someone that's then forced to have a child they never wanted is going to find it that much harder to move on with their life. Also, if they never wanted the child in the first place, who says they're going to love and care for the baby as it deserves to be, that goes for any mother. Unplanned pregnancies and rape are two COMPLETELY different things, the situations can't really be compared.

Adoption is always an option (<- I rhymed!) when it comes to rape/incest. I'm no medical expert, but I believe a c-section would be able to keep both parent and child alive in the second example, correct?
Yes adoption is an option, but it's not always plausible. The kid might end up staying in foster homes, spending the next 18 years of their life going through foster care and that's not fair on them and in a lot of cases can be damaging to them emotionally and psychologically. You're just setting them up to lead a horrible life and for what?

Not necessarily. I was a c-section baby and that's only because I was upside down. There are so many situations both during birth but also during the 9 months pregnancy that could be potentially life-threatening to the mother. Personally I don't see how it's moral to put a bundle of cells before a living, breathing human being.

Also, I want to ask what you would say is right to do if it's a child that has been raped? There are many stories of 12/13/14 year olds and younger forced to give birth to babies they don't want because abortion is illegal where they live and that is so disturbing. I couldn't even look after myself at that age, you're still a child yourself and you wouldn't even know what was happening to you. Having a baby (even if you just 'get it adopted' afterwards) will rid that child of their own childhood. They won't go through pregnancy and forget about it.

[Interstellar]

It could be challenging mentally for the mother give birth to a child that was made because she was rape even if she put it up for adoption. For incest the kids most likely will have terrible condition because of incest and might not be able to have a normal life don't you think it would be better for the mother to abort the pregnancy instead of having the child suffer for his entire life?
If I were the kid in this case, I would much rather have to spend my entire life working to overcome my suffering instead of being killed by my own mom.

I mean during the pregnancy if the mothers life is in danger for whatever reason and she could eventually die if she keep the baby. Would you rather let her have an abortion or let her die?
Tbh this was the toughest one to respond to. I know that this'll make me sound like a dick, but IMO a woman who chooses to get pregnant should have to deal with the consequences, whatever they may be.

Can you not imagine the mental torture someone must go through when they're raped? When the mother looks at their child and remembers how they were created?
Yes, I know that rape is a traumatic experience. That's not what I was trying to say. The mother should, however, be able to look past the horror of what happened and see all of the good that is still in their life when they see their child. He/she doesn't have to remind their parent of something bad, rather they can be a symbol of hope for them.

Personally I don't see how it's moral to put a bundle of cells before a living, breathing human being.
That "bundle of cells" is a living, breathing human being. Life begins from the moment of conception. There is actual video proof of a fetus trying to move away from the doctor that is performing the abortion. Look it up, and if that doesn't prove that it's a human being with real human emotions and thoughts then I don't know what does.

Also, I want to ask what you would say is right to do if it's a child that has been raped? There are many stories of 12/13/14 year olds and younger forced to give birth to babies they don't want because abortion is illegal where they live and that is so disturbing.
You answered your own question: if these places you mention outlaw abortion even for teens that come across unplanned pregnancies, clearly other places should be able to outlaw it as well.

[mattsmith48]

Tbh this was the toughest one to respond to. I know that this'll make me sound like a dick, but IMO a woman who chooses to get pregnant should have to deal with the consequences, whatever they may be.
Ok what if its an accident like the condom broke or the pill didn't work and she gets pregnant do you kill the unborn fetus that doesn't feel anything anyway or do you kill the mother.

[phuckphace]

this thread again

I'm still liking my plan to build a better society, thus rendering abortion obsolete

[Babs]

just like Interstellar said, A fetus is a person, a completely defenseless person, so its murder. Murder is illegal, therefore so should abortion. Life is a beautiful thing, why take it away from anyone, even if they were made accidently.

Comparing a clump of cells that doesn't even have a brain yet to a living human being with thoughts and feelings sounds no different than the bray of an ass.


Interstellar

For the first situation, hopefully the mother would be smart enough to put the baby up for adoption or she would have family members/friends who are nice enough to care for her/the baby until she is financially stable. As far as rape goes, I'm sure most women would rather live with the thought of having an illegitimate child rather than the thought of having murdered their own child. I also know a girl who is the product of an unplanned pregnancy and her mom has shown nothing but love towards her.





Abuse is extremely common among families with adopted children. Many parents don't care much for their adopted children because they aren't their "real children". Yes, that's a direct quote from a shithead I know.

I would feel much worse knowing that I put a child into this world just for it to be abused and neglected than I would aborting a fetus. It takes A LOT to be a parent and it would be fucking selfish of me to keep a child I cannot care for.

[phuckphace]

some adopted kids are abused, ergo we should just abort instead

VT pls

[Babs]

Obviously I'm not saying everyone who doesn't want a kid should abort. I'm saying every option should be available, and that every option has its pros and cons. Didn't think that was such a radical notion.

[phuckphace]

it's a child if I keep it, it's a fetus if I decide not to

[Uniquemind]

The problem with this topic is that no matter what side of the argument you take, someone is "forced" by the other side to make a decision.

I think late term abortions should be illegally stopped.

If one seeks a back-ally abortion, and they develop complications including that of death then that's on them, not society.

I think sex ed needs to be standardized and stop being inconsistent from state to state.

I think a child or teen who fathers or is pregnant, via consent or rape, have access to support options from society that offers both a financial and education pathway to BOTH abort or keep the baby and offer protections to escape judgmental guardians or parents who shame their kid for getting pregnant outside of cultural or religious doctrine, if that becomes an issue.

A mom who sees a baby made from a rape, might be and probably will be conflicted but the baby might also be a speck of hope and a way forward from a past they can't escape. Those who take a tone that aborting a rape baby allows the woman to move forward as if it never happened (OK so I know you didn't put it like that but that's the tone with which posts like that seem to linger) is a bit of us adding our own 3rd party thoughts onto someone in that situation.

We also don't want forced abortions either for those who want to keep their babies.


So to me this issue is about promoting healthy choices for both keeping the potential baby or purging it.

Either option seems neutral to me morally.

---

Also men shouldn't have to pay child support for children that aren't theirs unless they want to.

Someone else brought that issue up, but it seems unrelated to our issue. But I thought I'd mention it.

Interstellar can't you just private message me the video of the fetus trying to escape the doctor's abortion procedure to me?

Mods won't allow you to post it here ?

[Interstellar]

Uniquemind This is former Planned Parenthood clinic director Abby Johnson discussing how she left her job at the abortion clinic after watching the baby fighting for its life during an ultrasound-guided abortion procedure. There is another video that actually shows the live ultrasound, but it's too graphic for me to post on here, and I can't PM yet.
https://youtu.be/HFVt8yLuyUs

[Vlerchan]

this thread again
I wonder if I'd be able to address all the pro-life points with just quotes from previous responses.

[Sweeper]

If my mother believed in abortion, I wouldn't be here. A lot of others weren't as lucky.

I'm sorry, but you can't just kill a child. We can pretend it's all sorts of things that it isn't, but at the end of the day, that's exactly what it is.

[mattsmith48]

The problem with this topic is that no matter what side of the argument you take, someone is "forced" by the other side to make a decision.

I think late term abortions should be illegally stopped.
Late term abortion are already illegal

I think sex ed needs to be standardized and stop being inconsistent from state to state.
I agree but it won't do it cuz Jesus doesn't like it

A mom who sees a baby made from a rape, might be and probably will be conflicted but the baby might also be a speck of hope and a way forward from a past they can't escape. Those who take a tone that aborting a rape baby allows the woman to move forward as if it never happened (OK so I know you didn't put it like that but that's the tone with which posts like that seem to linger) is a bit of us adding our own 3rd party thoughts onto someone in that situation.

It could be tougher for her to move forward cuz every time she look at that child it reminds her of what happen

We also don't want forced abortions either for those who want to keep their babies.
I agree but if the baby as a terrible disease and hes gonna suffer all his life it is a better option to have abortion


So to me this issue is about promoting healthy choices for both keeping the potential baby or purging it.

Either option seems neutral to me morally.

Talking about morals, what if the mothers life is in danger if she have the baby, whats more moral to do abort the fetus who doesn't feel anything anyway or you let the mother die?

https://youtu.be/HFVt8yLuyUs

Mike Huckabee is an idiot who thinks sex should end with a baby poping out or terrible disease just because Jesus doesn't like it.

[mattsmith48]

If my mother believed in abortion, I wouldn't be here. A lot of others weren't as lucky.

I'm sorry, but you can't just kill a child. We can pretend it's all sorts of things that it isn't, but at the end of the day, that's exactly what it is.

Neither than i but im still pro-choice

[ObliviousCat]

Not to be "that guy" but I am appalled that so many people here are pro-choice. An abortion, no matter what the woman's reasons for having it are, is murder - point blank. It is the killing of an innocent human being (and yes, a fetus is a person) with the same rights as you and me that has absolutely no way to defend itself. Saying abortion should be legal is like saying murder should be legal, but apparently a lot of you would like that ;)

Hm, I disagree. A fetus cannot live outside its mother's womb. Isn't that one of the basic requirements of a functioning human being? A human lives outside of its mother's womb (obviously =P). An embryo and a fetus would die outside its mother's womb at an early stage.

I think sex ed needs to be standardized and stop being inconsistent from state to state.

I very strongly agree with this.

this thread again

Sowwy ;-;

Yes, I know that rape is a traumatic experience. That's not what I was trying to say. The mother should, however, be able to look past the horror of what happened

You are shitting me right now. I've read all of the responses on this thread and this is the only one (so far) that has made me upset. You have no idea what it's like to be in such a highly traumatic situation yet you put yourself in a position to say a rape victim should be able to, and you actually chose the words, look past the horror of what happened.

I have no words.

Merged Quadruple post. Please use the Edit and MultiQuote button Plane And Simple

[Babs]

Seeing as how the literal definition of a fetus is an unborn baby that has not been fully developed, that is precisely correct. I don't see how subtle barbs at small, unimportant details denotes my argument. Much less straw-manning my point.

Thing is, a fetus in the first trimester or even the second is not the same thing as a living, breathing baby, and pro-lifers need to know the difference.

[Interstellar]

Hm, I disagree. A fetus cannot live outside its mother's womb. Isn't that one of the basic requirements of a functioning human being? A human lives outside of its mother's womb (obviously =P). An embryo and a fetus would die outside its mother's womb at an early stage.
Saying that a fetus isn't a person because it is dependent on someone else to care for it is equivalent to saying that an Alzheimer's/dementia patient isn't a person for the same reason. They would die if they had to live on their own, but we still consider them as people. We don't go around murdering them.

You are shitting me right now. I've read all of the responses on this thread and this is the only one (so far) that has made me upset. You have no idea what it's like to be in such a highly traumatic situation yet you put yourself in a position to say a rape victim should be able to, and you actually chose the words, look past the horror of what happened.

I have no words.
I apologize for offending/upsetting you...that was not my goal in this. However, if you actually read my whole post instead of just quoting half of it you would notice that I didn't just say "get over it" like you're implying. I said that the person should try and see how the good in the situation (ex. the baby) can outweigh the bad. Sorry again:(

[Kirina]

Thing is, a fetus in the first trimester or even the second is not the same thing as a living, breathing baby, and pro-lifers need to know the difference.

It's an embryo in the first-second trimester right? I don't know how to measure how "alive" something is, but even ants seem to be more alive than an embryo.

We heard the story of how it tries to escape from the probe, it's cruel I guess but this behavoir is nothing more than survival instinct. I think that is common between all living things (even plants, they have defense mechanisms against invading pathogens like fungi and bacteria). Emotions/feelings/thoughts is more complex and not present in an embryo because it's not intelligent enough, it's not feeling fear (it's not feeling anything). Just survival instinct.

By saying embryo/fetus is as alive as humans, the same value has to be applied to plants and insects, but then what is left to eat?

[ObliviousCat]

I apologize for offending/upsetting you...that was not my goal in this. However, if you actually read my whole post instead of just quoting half of it you would notice that I didn't just say "get over it" like you're implying. I said that the person should try and see how the good in the situation (ex. the baby) can outweigh the bad. Sorry again:(

I did read the whole post but it still portrays the same thing. A baby conceived without consent is not going to outweigh the trauma that will follow the mother for the rest of her life. Trauma can cause many complications which can include panic attacks. From experience, I can safely say that panic attacks can have a huge, negative impact on your life.
There are things called triggers.
What could a trigger be for someone who experiences panic attacks when faced with things that remind them of their traumatic experience?
..Hm..the baby? Highly potential. But this isn't like some triggers that you can avoid. This trigger will be constant and consistent...24/7.
I can not even imagine how miserable I would be if I had to face my anxiety triggers every second of the day. I can not even fathom how much it would destroy me mentally if I had to devote my life to my anxiety triggers.
Panic attacks are very brutal and very draining. I am already miserable enough dealing with one for 5 minutes.
That isn't the only trigger, either. The mother could be triggered when faced with a situation involving a hospital because that is where she was forced to birth her baby. To birth her (potential) anxiety trigger that she will have to devote her life to. What happens when she gets terribly ill and has to be admitted to the hospital? Just imagine how great that would be.

And in case you don't know what a panic attack is or what it feels like, I will tell you. It can be different for everyone who suffers from anxiety but it generally consists of difficulty breathing, excessive sweating, heart palpitations, and hyperventilation. Hyperventilation and palpitations, in my opinion, are the worst and most intolerable and overpowering symptoms.

So, yes, even though I read your entire post, you still upset me. I do forgive you, of course, but it is still awful to read your response to an experience as traumatic as rape.

[ndrwmxwll]

it aint pretty but id back the power to get an abortion (as much as the power not to) even if there was a whole family in there -- the point is uncompromising bodily autonomy, not 'when does life begin'

[mattsmith48]

jellyfish?

[QUOTE=Interstellar;3203844]Saying that a fetus isn't a person because it is dependent on someone else to care for it is equivalent to saying that an Alzheimer's/dementia patient isn't a person for the same reason. They would die if they had to live on their own, but we still consider them as people. We don't go around murdering them.

An Alzheimer/Dementia patient's dependence to others is more comparable to a little kid then a fetus. The reason the fetus can't survive outside the womb is because his internal organs are not devolved enough to be able to survive outside the womb.

[Uniquemind]

Late term abortion are already illegal


I agree but it won't do it cuz Jesus doesn't like it



It could be tougher for her to move forward cuz every time she look at that child it reminds her of what happen


I agree but if the baby as a terrible disease and hes gonna suffer all his life it is a better option to have abortion




Talking about morals, what if the mothers life is in danger if she have the baby, whats more moral to do abort the fetus who doesn't feel anything anyway or you let the mother die?



Mike Huckabee is an idiot who thinks sex should end with a baby poping out or terrible disease just because Jesus doesn't like it.


Well idk Matt.

I read the entire bible and the end point I got was the main objective is that God wants you with him in the Eternal Life.

So if one's early life on Earth ends via whatever means, as long as you have eternal life in Jesus, nothing else seems to matter.

And those of the aborted aren't "born in sin" yet. So they're in a state of blamelessness which apparently is the best state a person can reach in the faith after accepting Jesus (cuz once you've sinned you can never be sinless; only blameless).

---

Also Jesus never said anything about sex ed being something he didn't like.

He was always for truth.


Also in the Old Testament God told Adam and Eve that we had to eat of the tree of knowledge forever now til the end of our days.

Denying education, like sex ed or any other knowledge of education, seems like disobeying God again.


If you want to deny knowledge don't eat from that tree. Once you take a bite you gotta finish the path you started and keep eating apparently.

And okay society tried limiting and restricting the lectures of what could or couldn't be discussed did it bare good fruitful results? no it didn't, so that means the strategy failed and abort that mission and try a new strategy.


---

Unfortunately because the universe isn't perfect it ultimately needs to be a woman's choice.

The law should only step in if like the same girl is coming in for repeated abortion procedures (like we're talking 3rd or 4th or more).

Then perhaps there should be restrictions and records kept, because that's damn suspicious even from a criminal investigation standpoint.

But seriously if people of faith are gonna be against abortion here I could only agree to their terms if they agree to design a perfect world and simultaneously solve all the world's moral failings and problems in one instant.


Because we have abortion because of:

1. Nature errors (pregnancy complications, sometimes resulting in death)

2. Rape (people have sick brains and do these things based on psychological or brain wiring problems).

3. Scare resources like land to live on, water, food, pollution.

There's more.

Solve these problems and the need for such procedures like abortion goes away.

But it you cannot expect to cherry pick solve one problem at a time. It's gotta be done all at once, or you take the world as it is now with our half-assed solutions.

And abortion is a half-assed solution to a problem I think we can agree with that.

[mattsmith48]

Well idk Matt.

I read the entire bible and the end point I got was the main objective is that God wants you with him in the Eternal Life.

So if one's early life on Earth ends via whatever means, as long as you have eternal life in Jesus, nothing else seems to matter.

And those of the aborted aren't "born in sin" yet. So they're in a state of blamelessness which apparently is the best state a person can reach in the faith after accepting Jesus (cuz once you've sinned you can never be sinless; only blameless).

---

Also Jesus never said anything about sex ed being something he didn't like.

He was always for truth.


Also in the Old Testament God told Adam and Eve that we had to eat of the tree of knowledge forever now til the end of our days.

Denying education, like sex ed or any other knowledge of education, seems like disobeying God again.


If you want to deny knowledge don't eat from that tree. Once you take a bite you gotta finish the path you started and keep eating apparently.

And okay society tried limiting and restricting the lectures of what could or couldn't be discussed did it bare good fruitful results? no it didn't, so that means the strategy failed and abort that mission and try a new strategy.


---

Unfortunately because the universe isn't perfect it ultimately needs to be a woman's choice.

The law should only step in if like the same girl is coming in for repeated abortion procedures (like we're talking 3rd or 4th or more).

Then perhaps there should be restrictions and records kept, because that's damn suspicious even from a criminal investigation standpoint.

But seriously if people of faith are gonna be against abortion here I could only agree to their terms if they agree to design a perfect world and simultaneously solve all the world's moral failings and problems in one instant.

I was quoting there btw tell that to christians in the us who actually believe that.

[Deactivated]

I personally support abortion. In my opinion, it is up to the people having the baby whether or not they through with the pregnancy, and their final decision is their business.

[jessie3]

I think that a women should have the right to have an abortion. It's her body, her choice. It isn't anybody else's but her's.

I don't think the government or anybody who is of the faith should get into a women's personal life. If a person of faith wants to judge another person for there choices they should really judge there own choices.

[DriveAlive]

I think that a women should have the right to have an abortion. It's her body, her choice. It isn't anybody else's but her's.

I don't think the government or anybody who is of the faith should get into a women's personal life. If a person of faith wants to judge another person for there choices they should really judge there own choices.

The problem with this her body her choice argument is that she is making the decision about killing a fetus in her body. She is making the decision regarding a fetus, not herself. If you have an abortion when the fetus is alive, she is killing a living thing. This is no longer her body.

[mattsmith48]

The problem with this her body her choice argument is that she is making the decision about killing a fetus in her body. She is making the decision regarding a fetus, not herself. If you have an abortion when the fetus is alive, she is killing a living thing. This is no longer her body.

What if its an alien that is gonna pop out of her stomach and kill her instead of a human fetus. According to you she can't have an abortion because the decision is regarding the alien not her

[DriveAlive]

What if its an alien that is gonna pop out of her stomach and kill her instead of a human fetus. According to you she can't have an abortion because the decision is regarding the alien not her
You know full well that's not what I mean. My point is unless her life is threatened, having an abortion while the fetus is alive is no longer her making a decision about her body only. Im noy saying that abortion shouldn't be a choice, but saying that its a woman's body makes me mad.

[mattsmith48]

You know full well that's not what I mean. My point is unless her life is threatened, having an abortion while the fetus is alive is no longer her making a decision about her body only. Im noy saying that abortion shouldn't be a choice, but saying that its a woman's body makes me mad.

It is part of the woman's body until it can live outside the womb

[jessie3]

The problem with this her body her choice argument is that she is making the decision about killing a fetus in her body. She is making the decision regarding a fetus, not herself. If you have an abortion when the fetus is alive, she is killing a living thing. This is no longer her body.

Well a fetus isn't fully developed or "Full-Term" until 35 - 38 weeks, so until then it isn't considered a human and even if a women still wanted to have an abortion past 38 weeks she could do it for a number of reasons. Anti- life or the right to have an abortion is protected in the USA by the ninth and fourteenth amendment.

Although the ninth Amendment are not specified specifically, they are referred to as “unenumerated.” The Supreme Court has found that unenumerated rights include such important rights as the right to travel, the right to vote, the right to keep personal matters private and to make important decisions about one’s health care or body.

In the fourteenth amendment SECTION. 1. States "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States"

So if a fetus is still in the womens womb the fetus isn't considered a person or citizen of the United States until it has been born and the women carrying the fetus who is considered a person and citizen does have the right to abort the unborn fetus because no state shall make or enforce any law that shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States.

Plus i applaud Planned Parenthood for selling the aborted fetuses to scientific medical research. With out the fetuses we wouldn't know so much about them.

[Uniquemind]

What if its an alien that is gonna pop out of her stomach and kill her instead of a human fetus. According to you she can't have an abortion because the decision is regarding the alien not her

Well we'll cross that bridge when we come to that.

If I am to take that scenario literally though, and reference UFO abduction claims and cases, there are stories where this occurs it's just the girls/women are usually abducted again and the hybrid baby is taken back.

---

Man's law in the United States (US Constitution) says one thing, yet God's law (the bible) says another and that's why this issue won't die.

It needs to be resolved and never brought up again this debate is annoying.

[jessie3]

Man's law in the United States (US Constitution) says one thing, yet God's law (the bible) says another and that's why this issue won't die.

It needs to be resolved and never brought up again this debate is annoying.

Well as long as there is Pro-Life and Anti-Life activist, this issue won't be resolved. I think they should leave the whole abortion thing as it is and not change it because no matter what. You are going to have issues. If you are of faith and don't like abortions then leave it alone, don't force your beliefs and faith upon somebody else's.

[Grey]

Abortion is most definitely needed in this world. There are way too many unwanted pregnancies that getting rid of abortion would just lead to dangerous illegal abortions made by illegal doctors that could up the risk of dying via abortion by a large percentage. Women who are pregnant should be allowed to choose whether they want to abort the potential baby they are carrying because it is simply a potential life. This potential life has the potential to risk the health of an already living, breathing human being whether this be emotional or physical. I believe that a foetus has a fraction of the important of an already living human, so if there is a risk to even the emotional wellbeing of the mother then she should be allowed to abort the baby if she so chooses. In a situation where the mother's health is at risk, abortion is the lesser of two evils because you either have the potential death of an actual life or the death of a potential life.

[Porpoise101]

I agree with op but I just realized something. What if the father wants to keep the baby and the mother doesn't? If the actual birth is risky for the mother then I think the abortion should proceed. If it doesn't hurt the mother then I think that the fetus should live on. Maybe adoption could work for these people but honestly I'm a little torn.

[DriveAlive]

I also disagree with people who say that the religious should keep their opinions about abortion to themselves. Many consider a fetus a living person. If this was your belief, then how could you in any good conscience allow people to continue to murder unborn babies. I am not of this view because I believe that life starts at brain function.

[ObliviousCat]

Abortion is most definitely needed in this world. There are way too many unwanted pregnancies that getting rid of abortion would just lead to dangerous illegal abortions made by illegal doctors that could up the risk of dying via abortion by a large percentage. Women who are pregnant should be allowed to choose whether they want to abort the potential baby they are carrying because it is simply a potential life. This potential life has the potential to risk the health of an already living, breathing human being whether this be emotional or physical. I believe that a foetus has a fraction of the important of an already living human, so if there is a risk to even the emotional wellbeing of the mother then she should be allowed to abort the baby if she so chooses. In a situation where the mother's health is at risk, abortion is the lesser of two evils because you either have the potential death of an actual life or the death of a potential life.

:yes: Couldn't have said it better myself.

[ObliviousCat]

I also disagree with people who say that the religious should keep their opinions about abortion to themselves.

I think that when they (most of them) say religious people should keep their opinions about abortion to themselves they mean that religious people shouldn't try to force their opinions on anyone else - especially when it comes to the law. In the U.S., the Supreme Court separates church and state. I mean, when you think about it, we have to..

[Uniquemind]

I also disagree with people who say that the religious should keep their opinions about abortion to themselves. Many consider a fetus a living person. If this was your belief, then how could you in any good conscience allow people to continue to murder unborn babies. I am not of this view because I believe that life starts at brain function.

You disallow it within your own personal life if your a female. But you allow people to be responsible for their own actions and judged before god by their own actions just like it says in Revelation.

That's how you have a clean conscience about this.

If you're a man then this means don't put yourself in a position where you had sex and a pregnancy was the result.


In pure Christian theory, men following scripture aren't going to even be in a position where a baby they want is aborted by their female partner because the "having children" and "marriage" is the only place where these scenarios rise.

Every other scenario is already morally not sanction by God, is sin, and so idk how adding more sin or not makes it worse or better. It's a "do what you want scenario already".

[DriveAlive]

You disallow it within your own personal life if your a female. But you allow people to be responsible for their own actions and judged before god by their own actions just like it says in Revelation.

That's how you have a clean conscience about this.

If you're a man then this means don't put yourself in a position where you had sex and a pregnancy was the result.


In pure Christian theory, men following scripture aren't going to even be in a position where a baby they want is aborted by their female partner because the "having children" and "marriage" is the only place where these scenarios rise.

Every other scenario is already morally not sanction by God, is sin, and so idk how adding more sin or not makes it worse or better. It's a "do what you want scenario already".

Im not sure I understand. I agree that many religious would be fine with the live and let live philosophy, but I don't see how you could support the right for people to have abortions if you thought they were killing a human. In their mind, its like standing by and letting the Holocaust continue just because you are not directly responsible for the deaths.

[mattsmith48]

Well we'll cross that bridge when we come to that.

If I am to take that scenario literally though, and reference UFO abduction claims and cases, there are stories where this occurs it's just the girls/women are usually abducted again and the hybrid baby is taken back.

Im not talking about UFO abductions those are made up stories. Im talking about if something like the Xenomorph in the movie alien actually existed and in pregnant accordin to DriveAlive she should have some kind of abortion because its part of her body

Man's law in the United States (US Constitution) says one thing, yet God's law (the bible) says another and that's why this issue won't die.

I agree people need to stop having their imaginary friend and fairy tales run their life

I agree with op but I just realized something. What if the father wants to keep the baby and the mother doesn't? If the actual birth is risky for the mother then I think the abortion should proceed. If it doesn't hurt the mother then I think that the fetus should live on. Maybe adoption could work for these people but honestly I'm a little torn.

I think the father have the right to say is opinion but the final decision should be made by the woman because its her body

Double post merged. -HN

[Uniquemind]

Im not sure I understand. I agree that many religious would be fine with the live and let live philosophy, but I don't see how you could support the right for people to have abortions if you thought they were killing a human. In their mind, its like standing by and letting the Holocaust continue just because you are not directly responsible for the deaths.

That's only a good metaphor when a person skips the details that abortion as a medical procedure saves lives too.

The Holocaust had no rational purpose, abortions do. There lie the difference.

But essentially yes, it's a divorce of one's belief and personal responsibility for the world.

[DriveAlive]

That's only a good metaphor when a person skips the details that abortion as a medical procedure saves lives too.

The Holocaust had no rational purpose, abortions do. There lie the difference.

But essentially yes, it's a divorce of one's belief and personal responsibility for the world.
We are not arguing about abortions performed for medical purposes. We are talking about abortions performed just to prevent giving birth. That is where most people have a problem.

[mattsmith48]

Im not sure I understand. I agree that many religious would be fine with the live and let live philosophy, but I don't see how you could support the right for people to have abortions if you thought they were killing a human. In their mind, its like standing by and letting the Holocaust continue just because you are not directly responsible for the deaths.

The Holocaust was cause by religion and made by religious people.

And Christians are the ones bombing abortion clinic and try to kill people to stop them from having abortion

[DriveAlive]

The Holocaust was cause by religion and made by religious people.

And Christians are the ones bombing abortion clinic and try to kill people to stop them from having abortion

You are looking at a small group of nominal Christians. Most Christians I know are very good people. I may not agree with them, but I know that they do what they think is best for helping people. Most Christians would not kill others. If it offensive if I say that I hate Muslims because they did 9/11 and are all terrorists?

[Uniquemind]

We are not arguing about abortions performed for medical purposes. We are talking about abortions performed just to prevent giving birth. That is where most people have a problem.

But pragmatically you can't separate the two camps, you pass a law banning abortion both sets of people get hit with the bureaucratic process to "prove" they aren't using abortion as birth control.

You're a pretty intelligent person so you can imagine that if a story hits the news media in various powerful private groups with money start playing moral police, getting doctors freaked out about lawsuits if they proceed with treatment.

At a certain point since late term abortion is already illegal, if the procedure is stalled, eventually anti-abortion groups could stop a woman from getting the procedure on the time schedule she needs it at before her life is in danger.

I mean you know how long the paperwork process is to do something in government. It's supposed to go slow and have all these checks and balances.

This is why when I replied to you I didn't separate two camps. Both groups of people would be affected by abortion ban clauses in law with the exception of medically necessary ones. Ireland did this, and a woman died because of that law and it made international news.



Im not talking about UFO abductions those are made up stories. Im talking about if something like the Xenomorph in the movie alien actually existed and in pregnant accordin to DriveAlive she should have some kind of abortion because its part of her body



I agree people need to stop having their imaginary friend and fairy tales run their life

Well point is this angle of analysis on the topic of abortion is more for good humor to break the serious tension of this discussion.

But realistically this scenario about an alien pregnancy hasn't been an issue legally for us.

Our focus is dealing with the issue as it presents itself to us now.

If that happens to some poor girl and it's obviously document society will deal with it when that problem present itself in reality.

Theoretically though one could say that human rights don't apply because the DNA that makes up the creature inside isn't completely of the human genome. But even then I think it's a woman's choice, I just can't imagine any woman wanting to birth an alien hybrid baby, she probably didn't consent to getting pregnant with either.

[Kirina]

I just can't imagine any woman wanting to birth an alien hybrid baby, she probably didn't consent to getting pregnant with either.
Well AFAIK. You can raise bears/lions/tigers/horses/cows/anything. It will grow attached to you and consider you it's "mother". The reason for this is to survive, they need a provider. The hybrid alien has to be damn superior if it has zero need for a provider at birth. I'd take the chance that it has my best interest in mind.

[Aajj333]

If you Cannot get pregnant, you have zero rights to make laws about a person's body who can get pregnant. You have zero rights to tell people who can get pregnant what they are able to do with their bodies.

[tonymontana99]

I'll probably receive a lot of backlash on this, but oh well. I'm not here to have a heated argument with anyone. I just want to know what everyone's views are on this topic and I think it's fair to share my own. :) Also, I was quite surprised when I didn't see a thread on this already.


//
I believe it should be up to the woman bearing the child and her doctor and those two people only (and perhaps the father if he is around). The pregnant mother knows what is best for herself and the baby that could or could not come. She knows more than anyone else of her mental stability, physical health, financial issues, etc. Furthermore, the doctor will know more than anyone else if this is a healthy choice for the mother. A doctor will have a full medical history of the patient and, if the abortion would be life-threatening to the patient, wouldn't allow it.
However, I am not for late-term abortion. I think that having an abortion this late is irresponsible on the mother's end as there's really no excuse for not knowing of the pregnancy. The exception for this is the rare case of being pregnant without missing a period and not forming a belly - which has happened.



I believe that making abortion illegal (in the US) would be a very, very bad decision. If gun laws and drug laws don’t stop people from getting guns and drugs, how could abortion laws stop women from getting abortions? It will only stop safe and legal abortions, and increase the death in women (not to mention suicide rates). In 1857, the American Medical Association launched a campaign to make abortion illegal at all stages. The campaign failed to stop abortions and, instead, the rate of death in women increased critically due to them turning to underground or self abortions.

A true pro-life movement should aim to reduce the rate of abortion by promoting sex education and ensuring easy access to contraceptives to reduce the rate of unintended pregnancies, not diminish women’s rights. "Every year, six million American women are impregnated with more than half of them being unintended."

Also and furthermore, if a woman decides to intervene with the fertilization process, that should not be considered nor made illegal. Abortion at the stage of conception kills the potential of a human being, not an actual human.
Using this logic, you would be saying that masturbation and ovulation is murder. The potential for a human being is present in almost every sperm a man ejaculates and in the eggs that the women of childbearing age shed each month.
//


So, those are my views on abortion. What are yours?
What are your views on birth control methods such as the condom and contraceptive pills?
Are your views due to religious reasons or does it not affect your opinion on this?

Abortion should be legal in most cases. If the baby is going to be born with a major mental or physical impairment (and when I say major, I don't mean like a missing arm or leg, those could be fixed; I'm talking about a Brundlefly sort of fucked up experiment), or in cases of incest, rape, or a significant threat to the mother's life. But I think the father has as much saying in this as the mother. If she doesn't want the kid, but the father wants him and is willing to raise him (and he's healthy), she shouldn't be *that* woman and just let the kid be born, have the father take care of him and move on with her life.

But yes, abortion shouldn't be forbidden, especially in the United States. Planned Parenthood has done a service to everyone. It keeps the black population in check (most of the abortions are from poor "hood" black people whose kids would most likely become thugs) and the cadavers of the fetuses are used for stem cell research. It's a win-win situation, I honestly cannot understand the backlash that they're getting. They're dealing with would-be persons, not persons. The fetuses won't even remember they even existed.

[phuckphace]

In their mind, its like standing by and letting the Holocaust continue just because you are not directly responsible for the deaths.

I agree, though thankfully the Holocaust didn't happen

[Drewboyy]

I think it should be legal until the 4th month of pregnancy. By then, the parents ( if the father is around, because the father is just as responsible for the baby than the mother. As long as both agreed on having the sex that led to the baby, or having the baby in general) should be able to make a decision.

[mattsmith48]

I agree, though thankfully the Holocaust didn't happen

The holocaust happen bud there is pretty good evidence of hit

[Vlerchan]

An abortion, no matter what the woman's reasons for having it are, is murder - point blank.
It's killing. The term 'murder' is a legal construct and it being applicable is context dependent.

To keep using the same analogy, there's no situations that make murder legal, so why should there be ones that make abortions legal?
Ugh. There's no situation where murder is legal because that'd be a contradiction in legal terms.

There's lots of situations where killing is legal.

As far as rape goes, I'm sure most women would rather live with the thought of having an illegitimate child rather than the thought of having murdered their own child.
But some woman don't is the point of offering them the option of abortion.

The mother should, however, be able to look past the horror of what happened and see all of the good that is still in their life when they see their child. He/she doesn't have to remind their parent of something bad, rather they can be a symbol of hope for them.
If I'm quite honest it reads like you're telling the mother to get over herself.

I realise you think there's hope to be found in the life itself but I think you're underestimating the impact of rape.

Saying abortion should be legal is like saying murder should be legal, but apparently a lot of you would like that.
Pretending context doesn't exist isn't much of an argument.

It is the killing of an innocent human being (and yes, a fetus is a person) with the same rights as you and me that has absolutely no way to defend itself.
It's a human zygote, not a human.

It might become a human at some stage during the pregnancy, but there's no scientific consensus on this.

However, the pro-choice argument I espouse has nothing to do with whether it's a human or not. It's to with being able to control one's person.

So.

You wake up in the morning and find yourself back to back in bed with an unconscious violinist. A famous unconscious violinist. He has been found to have a fatal kidney ailment, and the Society of Music Lovers has canvassed all the available medical records and found that you alone have the right blood type to help. They have therefore kidnapped you, and last night the violinist's circulatory system was plugged into yours, so that your kidneys can be used to extract poisons from his blood as well as your own. [If he is unplugged from you now, he will die; but] in nine months he will have recovered from his ailment, and can safely be unplugged from you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Defense_of_Abortion#The_Violinist

Imagining this situation what's the moral thing to do?

If I were the kid in this case, I would much rather have to spend my entire life working to overcome my suffering instead of being killed by my own mom.
If I was aborted then I would never realise this and so would never care.

I'm sure the person born into impoverishment will spend a lot more time caring.

I know that this'll make me sound like a dick, but IMO a woman who chooses to get pregnant should have to deal with the consequences, whatever they may be.
So - Even if the foetus and mother both look set for death we should let both die rather than eliminate one?

I must be real bored if I'm continuing this response.

That "bundle of cells" is a living, breathing human being.
In what sense of the word?

Life begins from the moment of conception.
Sure. Life begins. But do we consider it human life?

You also never expanded on the basis that this life can void woman of their right to bodily autonomy.

There is actual video proof of a fetus trying to move away from the doctor that is performing the abortion. Look it up, and if that doesn't prove that it's a human being with real human emotions and thoughts then I don't know what does.
It doesn't at all. That's in no way a distinctly human occupation.

Not to mention 'thought't and 'emotion' is being presumed here.

Saying that a fetus isn't a person because it is dependent on someone else to care for it is equivalent to saying that an Alzheimer's/dementia patient isn't a person for the same reason.
Except it's not dependent in the same sense. People with dementia can still function in some sense without others - foutes' hold a definitional patisitic dependence on the host.

---

Uniquemind and I once had tangential debate that started here on the difference between murdering disabled people and the unborn.

http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3133644&postcount=51

I would also recommend reading the previous page where I have an extended argument with Quartz about the issue of abortion in general.

---

The problem with this her body her choice argument is that she is making the decision about killing a fetus in her body. She is making the decision regarding a fetus, not herself.
No she's not. What she's doing is making a decision to exclude the foetus from access to her person.

This involves killing it of course. But that's a consequence of her right to control over her own person. It's not the product of some right to kill.

What if the father wants to keep the baby and the mother doesn't? If the actual birth is risky for the mother then I think the abortion should proceed. If it doesn't hurt the mother then I think that the fetus should live on. Maybe adoption could work for these people but honestly I'm a little torn.
It depends on how we define 'hurt'.

I derive the mother's right to an abortion from her right to control over her own person. Referring to these grounds there's little excuse for the father to be able to stop her having an abortion. If he wants a child then he can go find a woman willing to carry his.

[Left Now]

It's a human zygote, not a human.

A Zygote is just one cell.The thing which you are referring to might be either Blastocyst or Fetus.

Anyway after about 4 months the child is too much alive to be killed,actually its main organs have already begun to work and it is somehow 99% a completely new human.So as I have always said before,I approve abortion till the fourth month,but after that it really is a murder.

I also believe four months are enough for the female to both realize that she is impregnated and abort the being which is in her womb.

[Vlerchan]

A Zygote is just one cell.The thing which you are referring to might be either Blastocyst or Fetus.
Oops. I meant it was a human embryo but I googled there and realised it's just a phase too.

What I mean is that it's in a pre-human stage of development, whatever the catch-all term there is.

[Left Now]

Oops. I meant it was a human embryo but I googled there and realised it's just a phase too.

What I mean is that it's in a pre-human stage of development, whatever the catch-all term there is.

:) That's right.But as I said after four months it is more than alive to be aborted or killed.They must act before it comes to such state of development.

[Living For Love]

The problem with abortion is that people think it's related to women's rights. It isn't. Abortion is not about denying women the right that they have to do with their body whatever they want, but instead protecting the life of a developing fetus. I don't want laws that protect irresponsible mothers and fathers who decided to have unprotected sex after a long night of drinking, I want laws that protect the baby that is still yet to be born and that someone out there who's not able to have kids and deserves far more to be a parent that those who conceived him probably wishes to adopt and give a good life that their natural parents would never be able to give them. And pro-abortion laws aren't one of those, because they condone the irresponsibility and immaturity that led to the problem in the first place.

[Sailor Mars]

Agreeing with the OP here. Abortion should be legal. It shouldn't concern anyone else besides the woman with the child and the doctor. It's her choice, and it's not an easy one. The woman is well aware that she's killing her own child, be it from consensual sex or not. Do you think she feels good about it? Of course not. Do you think she wants to have to kill the child growing inside of her? Hell no. But it's her choice. And if anyone says its murder or wrong, you don't realize how hard of a decision it is. Things are hard enough as it is for women (not a extreme feminist here) and the least they should be able to do is decide what's best for them and their children.

[Uniquemind]

Agreeing with the OP here. Abortion should be legal. It shouldn't concern anyone else besides the woman with the child and the doctor. It's her choice, and it's not an easy one. The woman is well aware that she's killing her own child, be it from consensual sex or not. Do you think she feels good about it? Of course not. Do you think she wants to have to kill the child growing inside of her? Hell no. But it's her choice. And if anyone says its murder or wrong, you don't realize how hard of a decision it is. Things are hard enough as it is for women (not a extreme feminist here) and the least they should be able to do is decide what's best for them and their children.

That's the thing though. I think anti-abortion groups feel that making such a decision to abort must not be hard enough, because people still choose it.

That's the tone they give off. That's why they aren't sympathetic to those who have gone through it.

[Sailor Mars]

That's the thing though. I think anti-abortion groups feel that making such a decision to abort must not be hard enough, because people still choose it.

That's the tone they give off. That's why they aren't sympathetic to those who have gone through it.

Thats why people should point it out more. Its not an easy choice to kill your children

[Uniquemind]

Thats why people should point it out more. Its not an easy choice to kill your children

Unless you have post-partum depression...cuz that does happen. Hospitals monitor you for that after giving birth for a bit.

But I get your point.

[Gwen]

Everyone should make their own choice, I can't support abortion myself but it would be really stupid (Well it currently is this stupid) that other people have to live under the rules set by my belief system. I don't like the idea of abortion either but I would rather it becomes legal to prevent dumpster babies or to help mothers who had been forced into having a child.

[Left Now]

Everyone should make their own choice, I can't support abortion myself but it would be really stupid (Well it currently is this stupid) that other people have to live under the rules set by my belief system. I don't like the idea of abortion either but I would rather it becomes legal to prevent dumpster babies or to help mothers who had been forced into having a child.

Still I think my idea of four months ultimatum is good enough.After four months it must be fully illegal except the time mother's healthy is endangered,because the being in mother's womb is too much alive to be aborted after then.

[Uniquemind]

Since this issue has been brought up, and human evolution and biology have not been kind to women who have had sperm forcefully injected into their wombs in the context of rape.

How does or should the law, with regards to abortion, treat cases where a woman is held captive and becomes pregnant and is held in captivity beyond those 20 weeks.


This scenario has happened to one woman I can think of who was held captive alongside 2 other women in Cleveland, Ohio.

I think her name was Amanda Berry. She didn't ask for that baby, the father of her baby wasn't selected by her own choice, but she endured and the child isn't a freak by default of her paternal side.

(There was a special interview special on the news with two of those women).

Point is the premise behind the right to purge a child from your life that you didn't consensually choose to make, how come that concept doesn't hold up past birth?

Because that's the flip side of this debate.

The right to take life of others based on "reasons" which are subject to change based on a case by case basis.

[Left Now]

Since this issue has been brought up, and human evolution and biology have not been kind to women who have had sperm forcefully injected into their wombs in the context of rape.

How does or should the law, with regards to abortion, treat cases where a woman is held captive and becomes pregnant and is held in captivity beyond those 20 weeks.


This scenario has happened to one woman I can think of who was held captive alongside 2 other women in Cleveland, Ohio.

I think her name was Amanda Berry. She didn't ask for that baby, the father of her baby wasn't selected by her own choice, but she endured and the child isn't a freak by default of her paternal side.

(There was a special interview special on the news with two of those women).

Point is the premise behind the right to purge a child from your life that you didn't consensually choose to make, how come that concept doesn't hold up past birth?

Because that's the flip side of this debate.

The right to take life of others based on "reasons" which are subject to change based on a case by case basis.

Well this was one of the most terrible things which I have ever heard.Well law is something General,but there are also some exceptions.The thing which I was refering to was for rape victims who are not in the same conditions or people who have accidentally became impregnated via other ways which are not rape,like unsafe sexual intercourse,which I personally do not see it appropriate at all and becoming pregnant via these ways just show how irresponsible the lady and her partner are in other aspects of life.

But for rape victims with special conditions like this one,well it is their absolute right ro abort that being in their wombs,however as I said most victims of rape do not have the same conditions and they are usually able to do this in first four months.

[Uniquemind]

Well this was one of the most terrible things which I have ever heard.Well law is something General,but there are also some exceptions.The thing which I was refering to was for rape victims who are not in the same conditions or people who have accidentally became impregnated via other ways which are not rape,like unsafe sexual intercourse,which I personally do not see it appropriate at all and becoming pregnant via these ways just show how irresponsible the lady and her partner are in other aspects of life.

But for rape victims with special conditions like this one,well it is their absolute right ro abort that being in their wombs,however as I said most victims of rape do not have the same conditions and they are usually able to do thisnin first four months.

That's exactly the problem.

I've isolated some reasons why this issue will never be resolved until biological and reproductive technology gets more advanced.

1. There is no real effective way for women to consciously stop or flush out or selectively choose sperm from male A vs male B once they've been deposited.
Once there it's all auto pilot.

Other female animals actually can form a plug or successfully flush out reproductive material from an undesirable male while keeping a desirable male's sperm for reproductive use. Biology really let human women down here.
(Mental trauma being a separate issue atm; only focusing on the issue of the need for abortion due to forced pregnancy).

2. Lack of political will to touch this issue and Laws surrounding it.

[Left Now]

That's exactly the problem.

I've isolated some reasons why this issue will never be resolved until biological and reproductive technology gets more advanced.

1. There is no real effective way for women to consciously stop or flush out or selectively choose sperm from male A vs male B once they've been deposited.
Once there it's all auto pilot.

Other female animals actually can form a plug or successfully flush out reproductive material from an undesirable male while keeping a desirable male's sperm for reproductive use. Biology really let human women down here.
(Mental trauma being a separate issue atm; only focusing on the issue of the need for abortion due to forced pregnancy).


Not all other female animals and not all other female mamals are like this.Also we have to note that this phrase "rape" is not something that would make a lot of sense for animals (I am not saying forcefully being impregnated does not exist among other animals at all,but still it may not be considered rape).

It is not about nature being unfair,it is about many humans act unnaturally.Seriously when in the whole existence is rape natural?I mean the sexual intercourse itself is a way for reproduction not insulting and harming or just having fun?If only people would act according to discipline.



2. Lack of political will to touch this issue and Laws surrounding it.

Well if they cannot do anything about the abortion of rape made beings,then they would better do something to prevent rape itself.

[Judean Zealot]

The problem with abortion is that you are killing a potential human being, an animal of sorts that is, in a formal sense, a being that exists to the end of producing a person. Although killing a being in potentia is clearly not the same as killing that being in actua, they still remain related evils.

There are 3 scenarios which I believe ought to be discussed separately.

1) Abortion following consensual sex. This is nothing but an act of depraved and licentious selfishness. One cuts off a life of another in order to avoid taking responsibility for one's actions. I see no reason why all parties involved in such a procedure shouldn't be imprisoned or stiffly fined.

2) Abortion to save the mother's life. In such an event I would absolutely condone and advocate abortion, as the usual dilemmas posed by killing to save one's life do not apply in this scenario, on account of the mother being a person in actuality, as opposed to the fetus, who is merely a potentiality.

3) Abortion after rape. Although I have more sympathy for those who condone abortion in this scenario over #1, I still oppose abortion in such a case, as the fetus's existence in the unwilling mother's womb amounts to no more than (provided that the mother is not endangered) a violation of property, and as such hardly justifies the killing of the violator. This is compounded by the fact that the fetus hasn't violated the mother's property by any willed action of it's own, but rather by it's passive existence.

[Miserabilia]

The problem with abortion is that you are killing a potential human being, an animal of sorts that is, in a formal sense, a being that exists to the end of producing a person. Although killing a being in potentia is clearly not the same as killing that being in actua, they still remain related evils.


I know it's been said a bilion times but how is killing sperm not the exact same thing.


1) Abortion following consensual sex. This is nothing but an act of depraved and licentious selfishness. One cuts off a life of another in order to avoid taking responsibility for one's actions. I see no reason why all parties involved in such a procedure shouldn't be imprisoned or stiffly fined.


This is nothing but an opinion either taught or some natural aversion to the concept of abortion. You've already said yourself it's not a life.

And ha, responsibility? Responsibility is having to raise a child? You do realize only women have children right? You're basicly saying, if you're a woman and you get pregnant, it's your "responsibility" to raise your child.

In reality, the woman who would normaly perform that abortion and in your world would be improsoned or fined would simply put the child in "the system". Depending on the background they will have a small chance of being adopted (and god knows where; I have personal inside views in this world and most of these families aren't exactly a good place to grow up) and in most cases in practice float around from family to family to institution. Overal you'll produce a whole group of unhappy, poor people which isn't exactly what society needs.



3) Abortion after rape. Although I have more sympathy for those who condone abortion in this scenario over #1, I still oppose abortion in such a case, as the fetus's existence in the unwilling mother's womb amounts to no more than (provided that the mother is not endangered) a violation of property, and as such hardly justifies the killing of the violator. This is compounded by the fact that the fetus hasn't violated the mother's property by any willed action of it's own, but rather by it's passive existence.

So a raped woman *has* to keep her baby... becauseee??
This has nothing to do with "violating property"... "Killing" the feutus is not a punishment for violiting the womb; that has to be the strangest analogy I've ever heard about this.
... this is about having to go through birthing your rapists baby; and then either having to take responsibility to raise it or place yet another baby in the parentless system.
It's not about justifying "killing" the feutus. It's removing a lifeless thing from a woman for her sake.

[Judean Zealot]

I know it's been said a bilion times but how is killing sperm not the exact same thing.
Although I would tend maintain that the destruction of sperm is an evil (albeit a far lesser one than abortion), it is not a wrong from this particular angle. The distinction is clear.

Unfertilized sperm is not, properly speaking, potentially anything. You can leave sperm around in an incubator for a million years, but without fertilization it will still remain just that- sperm. The sperm proper has no inherent upward potential. It is merely an ingredient of a human being, and cannot be properly considered a potential human being any more than a hydrogen molecule can be considered water in potentia, or a horse, glue.

The fetus, on the other hand, is an organism that holds within it's inherent programming an upward potential to 'personhood', and needs no more 'ingredients' (barring the sustenance it itself needs to survive) to realize it's potential as a human being. As such, we say that the fetus as it is already is a potential human being.



This is nothing but an opinion either taught or some natural aversion to the concept of abortion.No, it's an aversion based on the above argument.
You've already said yourself it's not a life.
Never happened. You're misrepresenting my position. I said it is not an actual human being. It is most definitely alive though in actua, on a level akin to an animal of sorts. However, that's not the point. The point is that it is, as it exists right now, a potential human being.

[/QUOTE]And ha, responsibility? Responsibility is having to raise a child? You do realize only women have children right? You're basicly saying, if you're a woman and you get pregnant, it's your "responsibility" to raise your child.[/QUOTE]
No. I'm saying that if your a man it's your responsibility to bust your ass working for 18 years to pay for that kid.

In reality, the woman who would normaly perform that abortion and in your world would be improsoned or fined would simply put the child in "the system". Depending on the background they will have a small chance of being adopted (and god knows where; I have personal inside views in this world and most of these families aren't exactly a good place to grow up) and in most cases in practice float around from family to family to institution. Overal you'll produce a whole group of unhappy, poor people which isn't exactly what society needs.
"You" will not produce an unhappy person. You will produce a person, and whether that person's life is miserable or not is in their own hands. Throughout history there have been men and women who have accomplished tremendous things, for better or for worse, despite growing up without parents and under far worse conditions than the modern State provides.


So a raped woman *has* to keep her baby... becauseee??
This has nothing to do with "violating property"... "Killing" the feutus is not a punishment for violiting the womb; that has to be the strangest analogy I've ever heard about this.
... this is about having to go through birthing your rapists baby; and then either having to take responsibility to raise it or place yet another baby in the parentless system.
It's not about justifying "killing" the feutus. It's removing a lifeless thing from a woman for her sake.

I think you've missed something in my line of argumentation, so I'll repeat.

If we conclude, based on the argument in the beginning of my post, that abortion in and of itself is an evil, than we have to find a reason to justify committing that evil if we wish to permit. In the case of the mother's life being endangered, the justification was the alternative of the far greater evil of the mother's death occurring. In that light we approach the question of rape.

We begin by stating the difference between rape and consensual sex. As is obvious, the difference lies in the fact that the rape victim cannot be accused of conceding to the initial sex act that created the fetus. So now our question is, restated, does the fact that this fetus was forcefully imposed provide a justification for terminating this human potentiality?

In response, I am responding that no, the fetus's being forced on the mother does not justify it's termination, as ultimately all that the unwillingness of the mother adds to the equation is the fact that the continued existence of the fetus in her womb is a violation of her property by the rapist, and as such is insufficient to justify the abortion of a human potentiality.

[phuckphace]

1) Abortion following consensual sex. This is nothing but an act of depraved and licentious selfishness. One cuts off a life of another in order to avoid taking responsibility for one's actions. I see no reason why all parties involved in such a procedure shouldn't be imprisoned or stiffly fined.

I would've agreed with this until recently, but then I met someone who changed my views on the subject considerably. this guy, whom I'll call Tristan, is my age, but the similarities end there - he already has a lengthy record of petty criminality including hard drug use/distribution and theft. he's had sex with over 100 women. he's an alcoholic, oxycodone addict, and is incredibly hedonistic and pretty much the definition of "drain on society."

people are, for the most part, shaped and molded by their environments especially in early childhood. so it didn't surprise me in the least when Tristan's parents turned out to be the same in every way - alcoholics, drug addicts, welfare cheats, you name it. in fact, they're the ones who got him into drugs and alcohol from a young age by buying him bottles and sharing their (illicitly obtained) OxyContin with him.

in other words, "the apple never falls far from the tree," or "chip off the old block." a few months ago a girl that he had sex with went and aborted her pregnancy without telling him, which he was upset by since he decided he wanted a child. I'm going to out on a limb and say that had they kept and raised the child together, the cops would then have to wrangle two individuals instead of one. I can safely bet the first life lesson Tristan Jr. would learn from dad is how fuckin' wasted you can get off a bottle of oxys. sorry, as reprehensible as abortion is, I'm not going to lose any sleep over this already shitty world having one fewer Tristan running around wreaking havoc.

as an aside, I agree that the use of abortion following consensual but reckless sex is likely done out of a selfish motive to avoid the consequences. however, these consequences are ones which aren't limited to the two actors alone, as society itself is also burdened.

[Judean Zealot]

phuckphace

Tristan Jr. should be made a ward of the State, not aborted.

[phuckphace]

phuckphace

Tristan Jr. should be made a ward of the State, not aborted.

I agree.

but in this particular scenario and reality, when the mother is simply unwilling to carry the baby to term, there's nothing else we can really do considering there's no system in place to force her to do so.

if I ran things Tristan would have already been executed a couple of years ago for possessing/distributing heroin and thus Tristan Jr. would have never been sired to begin with. for people of lesser criminality with an inclination towards reckless sex, there's also compulsory sterilization.

I'm certainly not going to sugarcoat it or anything - abortion is killing a baby plain and simple. it can sometimes be the lesser of two evils, however.

[Uniquemind]

I agree.

but in this particular scenario and reality, when the mother is simply unwilling to carry the baby to term, there's nothing else we can really do considering there's no system in place to force her to do so.

if I ran things Tristan would have already been executed a couple of years ago for possessing/distributing heroin and thus Tristan Jr. would have never been sired to begin with. for people of lesser criminality with an inclination towards reckless sex, there's also compulsory sterilization.

I'm certainly not going to sugarcoat it or anything - abortion is killing a baby plain and simple. it can sometimes be the lesser of two evils, however.

Well those 100 women have weak criteria on who they sleep with.

Anyway this is what the death penalty is for, purging people who are drains on society by their own choices.

But that's a different issue.

Environment can shape a person, but every person has a different level of resiliency versus caving and being molded by the environment.

So your situation is on a case by case basis.

[underwateruber]

I believe that abortion should be available to anyone who the pregnancy isn't their fault and only under agreement of the potential mother AND the potential father, if one of these parties disagrees, it should be their responsibility to care for the child. In cases where one of the involved parties is not available(rape, death, etc.), it should be down to the mother.

[dontfiguremeout]

I am so against abortion. How disgusting is it to chose whether or not a child gets to live or not because they show symptoms they might now turn out normally? Things happen, the child can come out perfectly normal, but if someone chose to abort that child, the child had no chance at having life. And this whole woman's rights thing about it is bs to me. It is both the woman and mans decision to have sex and if they aren't ready to have a baby, then they shouldn't be having sex. Sex is something you need to pre plan, it's not just something you do for fun with nothing to it. So it is both their responsibility to raise that child or give that child to adoption, but not kill it because you made a mistake at not being responsible. And what makes me sick is that people will defend animals to never be hurt or touched, but for people they will kill a child without any care in the world. Why is this okay? Why are we protecting animals way more than humans? I am full forward for animals, but when it comes to killing innocent babies, I cannot think what can go in peoples minds to thinking that's okay. And going back to the disability for a baby in it's womb, you shouldn't kill that baby if it has it. Let that child live. Let them bring a blessing to that family. Yes, it's a lot of work to have a special needs kid, but they should get an equal chance just like any other perfectly healthy baby in a womb. The saddest part is this baby will never get a chance to speak for itself. It's always about the woman choosing, but why can't it be for the baby? It's the woman and mans responsibility for choosing to have sex, so therefore both male and female are responsible for raising this child or give it up for adoption, not just for the female to say kill the baby, it's good for my health.

[Uniquemind]

I am so against abortion. How disgusting is it to chose whether or not a child gets to live or not because they show symptoms they might now turn out normally? Things happen, the child can come out perfectly normal, but if someone chose to abort that child, the child had no chance at having life. And this whole woman's rights thing about it is bs to me. It is both the woman and mans decision to have sex and if they aren't ready to have a baby, then they shouldn't be having sex. Sex is something you need to pre plan, it's not just something you do for fun with nothing to it. So it is both their responsibility to raise that child or give that child to adoption, but not kill it because you made a mistake at not being responsible. And what makes me sick is that people will defend animals to never be hurt or touched, but for people they will kill a child without any care in the world. Why is this okay? Why are we protecting animals way more than humans? I am full forward for animals, but when it comes to killing innocent babies, I cannot think what can go in peoples minds to thinking that's okay. And going back to the disability for a baby in it's womb, you shouldn't kill that baby if it has it. Let that child live. Let them bring a blessing to that family. Yes, it's a lot of work to have a special needs kid, but they should get an equal chance just like any other perfectly healthy baby in a womb. The saddest part is this baby will never get a chance to speak for itself. It's always about the woman choosing, but why can't it be for the baby? It's the woman and mans responsibility for choosing to have sex, so therefore both male and female are responsible for raising this child or give it up for adoption, not just for the female to say kill the baby, it's good for my health.

Fair point of view, however you only addressed one aspect of the issues

Please reread ALL thread posts here thus far and respond with a comprehensive response.


In response to your animals counterargument, do you accept that sterilizing humans is an appropriate action to take then; we certainly do that for some species of animals.

For humans I believe that's illegal.

[mattsmith48]

I am so against abortion. How disgusting is it to chose whether or not a child gets to live or not because they show symptoms they might now turn out normally? nd going back to the disability for a baby in it's womb, you shouldn't kill that baby if it has it. Let that child live. Let them bring a blessing to that family. Yes, it's a lot of work to have a special needs kid, but they should get an equal chance just like any other perfectly healthy baby in a womb.

A kid with a disability will not have an equal chance his hole life, he will most likely die young and suffer his entire life. Why should the future mother let her own kid suffer is entire life when she knowns he will not be normal when there is still time to have an abortion.

And this whole woman's rights thing about it is bs to me.
1. thats sexist
2. Until the fetus could survive outside the womb if the mother ended up getting it prematurely its part of her body. A woman should have the right to do whatever you want with her body.

It is both the woman and mans decision to have sex and if they aren't ready to have a baby, then they shouldn't be having sex. Sex is something you need to pre plan, it's not just something you do for fun with nothing to it.

If shes raped it wasnt her decision or her fault if she gets pregnant, why she should get a kid she didnt ask for that for the rest of her life will remind her of what that men did to her?

Sex can be just for fun, and being ready or trying to have a baby is just another reason to have sex, if your not ready use birth control or/and condoms. Condoms can broke and birth control can failed if it happens the women should have the choice to bring it to term or not since its her body.

[QUOTE]And what makes me sick is that people will defend animals to never be hurt or touched, but for people they will kill a child without any care in the world.
Actually an abortion is done carefully and the fetus doesnt feel anything

Why are we protecting animals way more than humans?

Thats not true if you kill a human you go to jail for murder if you kill an animal you go to jail too but for alot less time and its animal cruelty. Also your allowed to kill some animals legally its called hunting.

By definition its not a baby until it comes out when its in the womb its called a fetus, and the fetus is not a human yet when its aborted since it cant survive outside the womb. saying a 5 weeks old fetus is human is like saying sperm is human but is masturbating murder? nope

[Uniquemind]

A kid with a disability will not have an equal chance his hole life, he will most likely die young and suffer his entire life. Why should the future mother let her own kid suffer is entire life when she knowns he will not be normal when there is still time to have an abortion.


1. thats sexist
2. Until the fetus could survive outside the womb if the mother ended up getting it prematurely its part of her body. A woman should have the right to do whatever you want with her body.



If shes raped it wasnt her decision or her fault if she gets pregnant, why she should get a kid she didnt ask for that for the rest of her life will remind her of what that men did to her?

Sex can be just for fun, and being ready or trying to have a baby is just another reason to have sex, if your not ready use birth control or/and condoms. Condoms can broke and birth control can failed if it happens the women should have the choice to bring it to term or not since its her body.

[QUOTE]
Actually an abortion is done carefully and the fetus doesnt feel anything



Thats not true if you kill a human you go to jail for murder if you kill an animal you go to jail too but for alot less time and its animal cruelty. Also your allowed to kill some animals legally its called hunting.

By definition its not a baby until it comes out when its in the womb its called a fetus, and the fetus is not a human yet when its aborted since it cant survive outside the womb. saying a 5 weeks old fetus is human is like saying sperm is human but is masturbating murder? nope

On your last point that's debatable depending (the fetus feeling pain) depends on the stage of development.

There was also that one video cited or referenced above showing a video of the fetus trying to avoid the doctor's probe which means it's death.

It died. But it did seem to be aware of a threat before it was sucked out.


Regardless I agreed with most of what you said.

[NCronter99]

I'm against abortion. It's a circumstantial issue. For example: A woman is raped and becomes pregnant. She would probably want to get an abortion because she's afraid that every time she looks at the baby it'll bring back that awful memory. I'm in favor of a woman who chooses to get an abortion in that situation. But...I do not support a woman getting an abortion for any other reason, whether it be because of money, change of heart, or any other reason. If a woman voluntarily has sex with a guy without protection, she has to be ready for any consequences, like becoming pregnant in this case. Killing an unborn baby is wrong, especially if the woman didn't use protection. #ProLife

[JavierDolan]

//
I believe it should be up to the woman bearing the child and her doctor and those two people only (and perhaps the father if he is around). The pregnant mother knows what is best for herself and the baby that could or could not come.

I think you absolutely hit the nail on the head there. No one other than the mother should decide what to do with her body. And I absolutely believe that it should be available to them at whatever time, and no matter what term of pregnancy that they're in.

[Uniquemind]

Well I don't know if anybody's paying attention but it seems that Planned Parenthood will be shut down, if the government can't agree to fund spending to keep all of the government open, due to a recent debate over Planned Parenthood continuing to get funding.


So when that happens....all services they offer stop.

Joke: So once that happens there will be no Plan B, starting October first. (Badum tis pun intended!)

*Serious issue though.

[Judean Zealot]

Well I don't know if anybody's paying attention but it seems that Planned Parenthood will be shut down, if the government can't agree to fund spending to keep all of the government open, due to a recent debate over Planned Parenthood continuing to get funding.


So when that happens....all services they offer stop.

Joke: So once that happens there will be no Plan B, starting October first. (Badum tis pun intended!)

*Serious issue though.

:) :)

[Miserabilia]

Well I don't know if anybody's paying attention but it seems that Planned Parenthood will be shut down, if the government can't agree to fund spending to keep all of the government open, due to a recent debate over Planned Parenthood continuing to get funding.


So when that happens....all services they offer stop.

Joke: So once that happens there will be no Plan B, starting October first. (Badum tis pun intended!)

*Serious issue though.

damn :mad:

[mattsmith48]

On your last point that's debatable depending (the fetus feeling pain) depends on the stage of development.



Regardless I agreed with most of what you said.

You know those video were edited by pro-lifers for anti-abortion propaganda

There was also that one video cited or referenced above showing a video of the fetus trying to avoid the doctor's probe which means it's death.

It died. But it did seem to be aware of a threat before it was sucked out.


Yes that happen sometime like any other living thing on this planet when it feels danger. If you try to kill a fly with a newspaper the fly is not gonna stay there waiting to be killed its gonna fly away.

I'm against abortion. It's a circumstantial issue. For example: A woman is raped and becomes pregnant. She would probably want to get an abortion because she's afraid that every time she looks at the baby it'll bring back that awful memory. I'm in favor of a woman who chooses to get an abortion in that situation. But...I do not support a woman getting an abortion for any other reason, whether it be because of money, change of heart, or any other reason. If a woman voluntarily has sex with a guy without protection, she has to be ready for any consequences, like becoming pregnant in this case. Killing an unborn baby is wrong, especially if the woman didn't use protection. #ProLife

What if the life of the mother is in danger? can she get an abortion?

If 2 people are too dumb to have unprotected sex I agree they deserve something bad to happen to them but let it be a STD we dont want stupid people to reproduce.

[NCronter99]

You know those video were edited by pro-lifers for anti-abortion propaganda



Yes that happen sometime like any other living thing on this planet when it feels danger. If you try to kill a fly with a newspaper the fly is not gonna stay there waiting to be killed its gonna fly away.



What if the life of the mother is in danger? can she get an abortion?

If 2 people are too dumb to have unprotected sex I agree they deserve something bad to happen to them but let it be a STD we dont want stupid people to reproduce.

You have a good point there. If the woman's life is in danger then yes. But at least try to save the baby if it can be

[Phoenix718]

I believe that abortion should be legal. If you think about it, millions of sperm cells die when they are ejaculated. But once the baby reaches a certain age, the pregnancy can not be terminated ( i think this is the law in many countries).

[Exparagus]

Abortion laws don't stop people from getting abortions because it usually happens at an abortion clinic, and if a woman did it to herself, it would be considered murder. If abortion isn't murder, then tell me why killing a pregnant woman is considered double homicide.

[dxcxdzv]

Abortion laws don't stop people from getting abortions because it usually happens at an abortion clinic, and if a woman did it to herself, it would be considered murder. If abortion isn't murder, then tell me why killing a pregnant woman is considered double homicide.
What?
How many months? 3? 6? or 9?

[Babs]

Abortion laws don't stop people from getting abortions because it usually happens at an abortion clinic, and if a woman did it to herself, it would be considered murder. If abortion isn't murder, then tell me why killing a pregnant woman is considered double homicide.

That's a false equivalence.
Abortion, when done correctly, is humane and safe. The fetus does not feel a thing. Murder is a whole other story, old sport.

[Vlerchan]

Abortion laws don't stop people from getting abortions because it usually happens at an abortion clinic, and if a woman did it to herself, it would be considered murder.
Under the laws relating to abortion.

You see the problem here right.

If abortion isn't murder, then tell me why killing a pregnant woman is considered double homicide.
In certain legal jurisdictions it's enshrined that woman have a right to remove the foetus from their person - or contract with a trained professional in order for the procedure to be conducted. This right does not extent to others seeking to infringe on her person.

But - like above - you're substituting a legal argument for a moral argument.