Border disputes in exYugoslavia

[tovaris]

Recent developments in the border dispute between Croatia and Slovenia have raised a lot of dust and many more questions.

Croatia is the larger proprietor of border disputes in exYugoslavia (there is no border with any of the bordering former fellow republics that it settled to this day). This makes many uncertain of the future of the Balkans fragile peace (since on top of this all we have the Kosovo problem, the Greek crisis and the Albanian increasing nationalism)

What are your opinions on the stability of 21st century peace in this region? What do you say to those many common people from exYU who say "there will be war"?

Read up: http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=227324

After reading wach related wideo for relaxsation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLgt4HnFunY

EDIT:
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/croatia-and-serbia-in-grip-of-new-balkan-struggle-1.2316219,

[Gwen]

I don't think there will be peace in that region, there hasn't been for a long time due to very turbulent ethnic history. I haven't lived there or talked to many people from the region so I don't want to say much else without good knowledge on it as I understand the relations are... complicated there.

[Stronk Serb]

The Croat Slovenian border... what a mess. I watched a video about complex borders, and I saw it. It is literally divided into households, with Croatian and Slovenian exclaves dotting the land.

[tovaris]

The Croat Slovenian border... what a mess. I watched a video about complex borders, and I saw it. It is literally divided into households, with Croatian and Slovenian exclaves dotting the land.


Ix like to see the video, because the despute is actuly prety straight forward... ok along actual straight lines the despute isnt simple..

[Porpoise101]

Haha I go to YouTube to find good Turkish music and there is lots of ethnic tension even in the comments section. Down there it is a legitimate insult to call someone a "serbigay" like wtf it is almost hilarious looking at it as an outsider. I don't know if these people have real animosity towards each other but if that is any indication they would not be opposed to war.

[Stronk Serb]

Haha I go to YouTube to find good Turkish music and there is lots of ethnic tension even in the comments section. Down there it is a legitimate insult to call someone a "serbigay" like wtf it is almost hilarious looking at it as an outsider. I don't know if these people have real animosity towards each other but if that is any indication they would not be opposed to war.

The Turks enslaved us and kept us like that for more than four hundred years. They also raoed our women and took our children at a young age to serve as elite islamized shock troops.

[Porpoise101]

Yes it seems to me that Bulgarians and people from Kosovo don't mind Turks but Turks don't like anyone be it Cypriots, Serbs, Albanians, and Croats. They hate the "gayreeks" (I kid you not this a real thing) the most though

[Stronk Serb]

Yes it seems to me that Bulgarians and people from Kosovo don't mind Turks but Turks don't like anyone be it Cypriots, Serbs, Albanians, and Croats. They hate the "gayreeks" (I kid you not this a real thing) the most though

Kosovars are mostly Muslim Albanian with a diminishing Serbian presence in the North. In general, there are civilized Turks from urban area which are OK, but there are primitives who still think it's the era of the Ottoman Empire.

Now for the OP, the Croats are also preventing people from entering the self-proclaimed state of Liberland and they want every square inch of the disputed border with Serbia because it's their sacred Croatian clay.

[Miserabilia]

oh my! I was in Croatia just a while ago.

Don't really have any knowledge on the recent conflitcts and previous war...
Just know that there are ruins all over the country and the borders are very strange;

for example, bosnia herzegovina owns a small stretch of coast right in the middle of croatia, so if you'd drive all through the coast of croatia you'd enter and leave a piece of bosnia herzegovina.

[Stronk Serb]

oh my! I was in Croatia just a while ago.

Don't really have any knowledge on the recent conflitcts and previous war...
Just know that there are ruins all over the country and the borders are very strange;

for example, bosnia herzegovina owns a small stretch of coast right in the middle of croatia, so if you'd drive all through the coast of croatia you'd enter and leave a piece of bosnia herzegovina.

If you want, I can send you the brief history of the whole civil war via PM. The Croat-Slovene border is also full of exclaves (part's of a country that are not connected to it). The border was based on the nationality of household owners. Also the Croat-Serbian border was a natiral border based on the Sava river, on one place the river has changed it's course in favor of Serbia, but Croats are screaming 'muh holy Croatian clay!'.

[phuckphace]

The Croat Slovenian border... what a mess. I watched a video about complex borders, and I saw it. It is literally divided into households, with Croatian and Slovenian exclaves dotting the land.

Anschluss zeit!

[Porpoise101]

Ok so I am pretty naive but what is the difference between Serbian and Croatian culture. I remember reading that they even had the same spoken language.

[Zenos]

Recent developments in the border dispute between Croatia and Slovenia have raised a lot of dust and many more questions.

Croatia is the larger proprietor of border disputes in exYugoslavia (there is no border with any of the bordering former fellow republics that it settled to this day). This makes many uncertain of the future of the Balkans fragile peace (since on top of this all we have the Kosovo problem, the Greek crisis and the Albanian increasing nationalism)

What are your opinions on the stability of 21st century peace in this region? What do you say to those many common people from exYU who say "there will be war"?

Read up: http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=227324

After reading wach related wideo for relaxsation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLgt4HnFunY


It's sad but peace will be a long way off,and even longer if Obama and company have their way!

[Stronk Serb]

Ok so I am pretty naive but what is the difference between Serbian and Croatian culture. I remember reading that they even had the same spoken language.

Yes, the languages are the same, but the Croats are trying to make it different. They even synchronized a Serbian movie to Croatian on their national TV, I fucking laughed. Also there are religious differences, Croats are mostly Catholics while the Serbsre mostky Orthodox Christians. Also there is some bad blood between us after WWII and the Yugoslav Civil War. Also they claim Stjepan Kosača was a Croat even though he was a Serb. Also neither one of us don't want to admit war crimes until the other side does. Also a lot of people remember Oluja.

[tovaris]

I don't think there will be peace in that region, there hasn't been for a long time due to very turbulent ethnic history. I haven't lived there or talked to many people from the region so I don't want to say much else without good knowledge on it as I understand the relations are... complicated there.

Whel there has been a fragile pece maintained for the last 15 years or so but nationalistic tensions are rising

If you would wish to know more you are free to pm me.

Haha I go to YouTube to find good Turkish music and there is lots of ethnic tension even in the comments section. Down there it is a legitimate insult to call someone a "serbigay" like wtf it is almost hilarious looking at it as an outsider. I don't know if these people have real animosity towards each other but if that is any indication they would not be opposed to war.

Whel turkish and serbian tensions are prety cooled down after a few centuries. My cousin would even say turks come back Vučić is taksing us more than you did...
But keep in mind no nation truly wants war. Last 4 (or more im to lazy to check)generations of our man had to fihht in a war in the region

The Turks enslaved us and kept us like that for more than four hundred years. They also raoed our women and took our children at a young age to serve as elite islamized shock troops.

They werent that bad. Remember what they brought us. And remember that their rule in Serbia was only possible due to local fewdal lords aiding with them.

Yes it seems to me that Bulgarians and people from Kosovo don't mind Turks but Turks don't like anyone be it Cypriots, Serbs, Albanians, and Croats. They hate the "gayreeks" (I kid you not this a real thing) the most though


You should look up the balcan wars. A series of wars in the erly 20th century aimed to expel the turcs... (if you want further explanation im happy to oblige in PM)

oh my! I was in Croatia just a while ago.

Don't really have any knowledge on the recent conflitcts and previous war...
Just know that there are ruins all over the country and the borders are very strange;

for example, bosnia herzegovina owns a small stretch of coast right in the middle of croatia, so if you'd drive all through the coast of croatia you'd enter and leave a piece of bosnia herzegovina.


Bosnia and herzegovina (BiH) is wery... intersting, especaly after Dayton.

[Stronk Serb]

Whel there has been a fragile pece maintained for the last 15 years or so but nationalistic tensions are rising

If you would wish to know more you are free to pm me.



Whel turkish and serbian tensions are prety cooled down after a few centuries. My cousin would even say turks come back Vučić is taksing us more than you did...
But keep in mind no nation truly wants war. Last 4 (or more im to lazy to check)generations of our man had to fihht in a war in the region



They werent that bad. Remember what they brought us. And remember that their rule in Serbia was only possible due to local fewdal lords aiding with them.




You should look up the balcan wars. A series of wars in the erly 20th century aimed to expel the turcs... (if you want further explanation im happy to oblige in PM)

Well, the two Balkan Wars, the Great War, the Spanish Civil War (yeah there were volunteers, but a lot of them), the Second World War, the Yugoslav Civil War and the Kosovo War. That's 6 wars fought by Serbia on it's soil. I excluded the Spanish war. Also not all lords sided with the Turks. Vuk Branković and Emperor Siniša fought them. Also if it were that bad, we wouldn't have rebelled a lot or sided with Austria during their wars with the Turks.

[tovaris]

Well, the two Balkan Wars, the Great War, the Spanish Civil War (yeah there were volunteers, but a lot of them), the Second World War, the Yugoslav Civil War and the Kosovo War. That's 6 wars fought by Serbia on it's soil. I excluded the Spanish war. Also not all lords sided with the Turks. Vuk Branković and Emperor Siniša fought them. Also if it were that bad, we wouldn't have rebelled a lot or sided with Austria during their wars with the Turks.

yeah 6 sequential generations of our man had to fight, i dont wana be the 7th

But most lords sided with them and thats what alowed them to rule so long with no disturbance.

The rebelians happened because the turcs wanted to change the way the ruld. Actuly there were some rebeias pashas from bosnia and in the was it the first, yes i think the first uprising serbs were on the side of Carigrad rebeling againced rebelious pashas...

Ok so I am pretty naive but what is the difference between Serbian and Croatian culture. I remember reading that they even had the same spoken language.

Not realy the same spoken language espacely since croats keep changing it to distance themselves from serbs. It used to be (when i was a kid so not that long ago) you could speek serbian in croatia and everione would say wow you speek good croatian, but now they just look at you funny... it trury has become a strange artifitial language

It's sad but peace will be a long way off,and even longer if Obama and company have their way!

Im more woried but Mercel and republiacn party, but democrats are basicly just a republican sekt...

[Stronk Serb]

yeah 6 sequential generations of our man had to fight, i dont wana be the 7th

But most lords sided with them and thats what alowed them to rule so long with no disturbance.

The rebelians happened because the turcs wanted to change the way the ruld. Actuly there were some rebeias pashas from bosnia and in the was it the first, yes i think the first uprising serbs were on the side of Carigrad rebeling againced rebelious pashas...



Not realy the same spoken language espacely since croats keep changing it to distance themselves from serbs. It used to be (when i was a kid so not that long ago) you could speek serbian in croatia and everione would say wow you speek good croatian, but now they just look at you funny... it trury has become a strange artifitial language



Im more woried but Mercel and republiacn party, but democrats are basicly just a republican sekt...


They synchronized "Kad porastem, biću Kengur" on HRT2, I think. Also, our governments are the problem. Corruption, betrayal to foreign powers, generally destroying economies... they are the true enemy, not we the Slavs. Honestly, I would pass a lex specialis where any politicuan involved in corruption would go to the gallows. I would hang the fuckers on roadsigns so that anyone kniws what happens to cheats. Dušan's Law is strong in me heh

Now, the Turk topic. Danak u krvi, translated, debt in blood was practiced on Serbs, don't know if it was practiced on any enslaved peoples. As part of this so-called debt, Turk soldiers would go around villages and forcefully take strong, healthy boys which are taken to Constantinople to be islamized and trained as elite warriors. Mothers would often cut of a toe of the child or part of an ear so the Turks won't take him because he isn't perfecrly healthy. Also non-muslims were not allowed to wear green, and were taxed extra.

[tovaris]

They synchronized "Kad porastem, biću Kengur" on HRT2, I think. Also, our governments are the problem. Corruption, betrayal to foreign powers, generally destroying economies... they are the true enemy, not we the Slavs. Honestly, I would pass a lex specialis where any politicuan involved in corruption would go to the gallows. I would hang the fuckers on roadsigns so that anyone kniws what happens to cheats. Dušan's Law is strong in me heh

Now, the Turk topic. Danak u krvi, translated, debt in blood was practiced on Serbs, don't know if it was practiced on any enslaved peoples. As part of this so-called debt, Turk soldiers would go around villages and forcefully take strong, healthy boys which are taken to Constantinople to be islamized and trained as elite warriors. Mothers would often cut of a toe of the child or part of an ear so the Turks won't take him because he isn't perfecrly healthy. Also non-muslims were not allowed to wear green, and were taxed extra.

I must remind you that the tuđman doctrine bore wery good results of mixing up croatians and leaving themwith only "croatianism" (remember independence for hystria is gone thx to this) and this resettled nation is wery prone to nationalism. Even a supozed moderate left prime minister Milanović says "Za dom, spremni!"... this wories me a lot

turcs taking boys, wery comon even in Slovenia (which was only raded and not ocupied) i stil prefer the turcs to americans tho
#ClusterBombsOnCivilians

[Stronk Serb]

I must remind you that the tuđman doctrine bore wery good results of mixing up croatians and leaving themwith only "croatianism" (remember independence for hystria is gone thx to this) and this resettled nation is wery prone to nationalism. Even a supozed moderate left prime minister Milanović says "Za dom, spremni!"... this wories me a lot

turcs taking boys, wery comon even in Slovenia (which was only raded and not ocupied) i stil prefer the turcs to americans tho
#ClusterBombsOnCivilians

I prefer national independence or fighting for it until death. I think the whole civil war was decided before it even started. The Serbs leave Krajina and Karadžić get's 70% of Bosnia. Then Srebrenica happened and Karadžić got a place on the Interpol wanted list.

[Capto]

Ok so I am pretty naive but what is the difference between Serbian and Croatian culture. I remember reading that they even had the same spoken language.

If we're talking about their respective nationalist identities and ideologies, the relationship between Serbian and Croatian nationalism is actually rather binary. We can attribute these sharp differences to the respective historical sovereigns of the contemporary de jure Kingdoms of Croatia and Serbia, or the Kingdom of Hungary (and by proxy the Habsburg Austrian Empire and later Austria-Hungary) and the Ottoman Empire respectively. However, if we examine the territories and populations of these empires, we can see a rather striking parallel. The Austrian and Ottoman Empires, due to their multilingual and multicultural identities and spectra, relied on the prestige and loyalties of their subjects to a political entity rather than a national concept or ideology that would denote traditional nationalism. These political entities were respectively the Habsburg House and the Sublime Porte. The relatively centralized identity of both these empires (interestingly enough, each had a rather notable relatively autonomous exception; the Kingdom of Hungary and the Eyalet of Egypt respectively) caused for a lack of focus onto individual nationalities and a lessening of the importance of the development of subnational languages and cultures.

Hence it would be the process of independence and autonomy that would cause the Serbian and Croatian cultural ideals of nationalism to divide. Serbia was notable at the time for being the crossroads between the two monolithic multicultural empires, being alternatively controlled by either the Austrians or the Ottomans. Despite its isolation, Serbia is also notable for being able to achieve its independence nearly singlehandedly, which spearheaded the general Balkan awakening within the Ottoman borders and sparked the collapse of Ottoman Europe. In two attempts, the Serbs wrested independence from the Ottoman Empire, and in doing so created names that would be the fodder for nationalists to come: Karađorđe, Obrenović, etc. The self-obtained independence lead to a strong ideal of individualism for the Serbs, which would lead to be the foundation for late 19th and 20th century Serbian nationalism.

Croatia, on the other hand, found itself in a very different position at the time. Croatia was de jure and de facto under the dominion of the Kingdom of Hungary, which was under the Austrian Empire. Very famous are the Revolutions of 1848, one of which was the Hungarian uprising against the Habsburg led by Lajos Kossuth, which sported the cultural and national development and independence of Hungary. In this instance, the Croats, fearful of an independent nationalist Hungary and its implications on the Croatian substate, followed their Ban Jelačić to support the multicultural Habsburg ideal against the national Magyar movement. Despite their efforts, continued disgruntlement in the Carpathian Basin caused for the Compromise of 1867, which led directly to the formation of Austria-Hungary, which reestablished the nominal sovereignty of Hungary. The newfound autonomy of a Magyar-idealized (to some extent) Hungary, which conversely controlled territories populated by Romanians, Slovaks, Serbs, Slovenes, and indeed Croats, immediately caused a policy of 'Magyarization' to impose a common Hungarian identity on its new subject peoples. These nationalities under the control of Hungary, who were used to the multinational identity of the Habsburg crown, and whose customs and cultures were now being suppressed in favor of a foreign, distinct nationality and cultural identity, understandably reacted unfavorably.

Interestingly enough, the first who can be called actual Croatian nationalists actually looked to newly independent Serbia for help. Prior to the Compromise, they founded what was known as the Illyrian movement, a pan-Yugoslav cultural identity actually based somewhat upon the linguistic work of the Serbian linguist Vuk Karadžić. However, the recreation of the Hungarian Kingdom led to a distancing of Croats from this pan-Slavic movement. They would instead develop, directly in contrast to the Magyarization ideology, a distinct national Croatian identity, separate from the rest of its Slavic neighbors (at this time solely Serbia, but then the jointly-administered Bosnia and Herzegovina as well as Montenegro) and definitely separate from Hungary. Following the legal proceedings that led to the creation of Austria-Hungary, Croat nationalists began to argue that the Croat state they deserved would be a direct descendant of the 11th century Kingdom of Croatia that was unified with the contemporary Kingdom of Hungary through personal union, and hence was still applicable as a de jure and entitled state for the Croats. This geographical and legal nationalism compounded with the suppression of South Slavic culture led directly to the foundational core of Croatian nationalism: Velika Hrvatska, or Greater Croatia. It is this irredentist concept that stems from the fixation on a deserved Croatian homeland or kingdom (similar to the Promised Land, if that helps) and the disparity between the reality of Croatian states and the ideal of the Greater Croatia that has influenced and become the foundation of Croatian nationalism until today. From the Ustaše to the dissolution of Yugoslavia to today's border disputes, Croatian nationalism has continued to be centered around a geographical and state-oriented ideal, thus necessitating the development of a cultural and linguistic distinction of Croats from Serbs. Hence why Croatia and Croats are so adamant to market itself as a separate entity from Serbia and Serbs. This is notably distinct from the Serbian nationalism that was people-focused and culture-centered, which can be seen by the fixation on Kosovo (the battle and continuing to the current state), and the continued fame of historical figures who shaped Serbian history and cultural development.

[Porpoise101]

Also there are religious differences, Croats are mostly Catholics while the Serbsre mostky Orthodox Christians.

Ok this is interesting because my great grand parents on my mother's side came from a town called Benkovac in Croatia but they were very proud of being orthodox so they might have been Serbs that lived in Croatia.

They left the country for the US in the 1920s so I'm wondering if there was any particular disturbance like a war that pushed them out during that time.

[Capto]

Ok this is interesting because my great grand parents on my mother's side came from a town called Benkovac in Croatia but they were very proud of being orthodox so they might have been Serbs that lived in Croatia.

They left the country for the US in the 1920s so I'm wondering if there was any particular disturbance like a war that pushed them out during that time.

Benkovac was historically a Serbian-majority town in Dalmatia.

If they left during the 20's it could easily have been anything from being former Austro-Hungarian supporters, being disgruntled with integration into the littoral or fearful of Italian irredentist claims on Dalmatia that went unanswered during Versailles, or simply just wanting to move to the State out of apathy for the relatively chaotic and jumbled local political sphere.

[Stronk Serb]

Ok this is interesting because my great grand parents on my mother's side came from a town called Benkovac in Croatia but they were very proud of being orthodox so they might have been Serbs that lived in Croatia.

They left the country for the US in the 1920s so I'm wondering if there was any particular disturbance like a war that pushed them out during that time.

No, there were no wars. Just the shitty state haha. I can tell with a certainty that they are Serbs because only Serbs converted to Catholicism, no Croats converted to Orthodoxy.

[tovaris]

Ok this is interesting because my great grand parents on my mother's side came from a town called Benkovac in Croatia but they were very proud of being orthodox so they might have been Serbs that lived in Croatia.

They left the country for the US in the 1920s so I'm wondering if there was any particular disturbance like a war that pushed them out during that time.

There was a mass exodus in the 20s from Yugoslavia to America. Many people went in search of jobe, some didnt like the opressive monarchy but mostly jobs

If we're talking about their respective nationalist identities and ideologies, the relationship between Serbian and Croatian nationalism is actually rather binary. We can attribute these sharp differences to the respectiv /.../ , and the continued fame of historical figures who shaped Serbian history and cultural development.

I shortened your great historical desription for space not because im not refearnig to it...

All this what yous said braught Croatia to the todays point where they are in despude with every other bordering exYU republic for border regions, and with hungary they are in court ower INA purches, so yeah croat nacio is wery expansionistc and in my opinion dangerous to the fragile pece we've got going here

[Zenos]

yeah 6 sequential generations of our man had to fight, i dont wana be the 7th

But most lords sided with them and thats what alowed them to rule so long with no disturbance.

The rebelians happened because the turcs wanted to change the way the ruld. Actuly there were some rebeias pashas from bosnia and in the was it the first, yes i think the first uprising serbs were on the side of Carigrad rebeling againced rebelious pashas...



Not realy the same spoken language espacely since croats keep changing it to distance themselves from serbs. It used to be (when i was a kid so not that long ago) you could speek serbian in croatia and everione would say wow you speek good croatian, but now they just look at you funny... it trury has become a strange artifitial language



Im more woried but Mercel and republiacn party, but democrats are basicly just a republican sekt...

Republicans and democrats in the USA are mirror images of each other,one does something and the other does the mirror and yet opposite of it.

[tovaris]

Republicans and democrats in the USA are mirror images of each other,one does something and the other does the mirror and yet opposite of it.

Not realy they are both evil, american centric and warmongoring

[tovaris]

Bumping this thing