Cecil the lion

[maggs]

In the last few days probably all of you have heard about the killing of Cecil (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecil_(lion)), Zimbabwe's iconic lion and now the world's most famous lion.

Cecil was killed by an American dentist, Walter James Palmer (http://edition.cnn.com/2015/07/28/africa/zimbabwe-lion-killed/).

This man has now become the most hated person in the Internet probably.

What do you think about his actions? Do you think he really didn't knew he was hunting Cecil?

Personally, I can't stand this kind of people. "I hunt for sport and blah blah blah". Bullshit, effing sadist. And I think he knew very well what he was doing.

[Gwen]

He had a rifle and a bow and arrow. He knew what he was doing. He didn't even manage to kill him quickly the first attempt left Cecil injured so he had to go and finish him off. This was for a trophy and he should be regarded as a disgusting human being for a reason. The new male lion is going to kill all of Cecil's cubs within the pride so it is also damaging the numbers of a protected animal.

[Karkat]

I legitimately hate sport hunting. It's worthless. It's wasteful- It's honestly an insult to my ancestors. You think the native peoples just went around killing those they believed were sacred... For fun? No, and when they killed them for food and shelter, they used every bit they could in some way or another to honor the creature they killed.

This guy in particular? Absolutely disgusting, yes, but I believe anyone who hunts an animal and leaves it to rot either on their mantle or just where it lies is despicable. If you're going to use its parts, that's one thing, but trophy hunting is disgusting.

[DriveAlive]

Ive been folllowing the discussion of this on Africahunting.com and frankly, he is a poacher. According to the guys over there, he did not have proper permits to be hunting and had been hunting at night on land that it was illegal to do so. Also, the land was part of Mugabe's land redistribution.
With that said, I don't think you should blame sport hunters for what this guy did. Sport hunters hate poachers and guys like this more than anyone. I have been lucky enough to hunt africa before and plan on going back multiple times. Sport hunters are some of the best conservationists. Without us, many of these animals would be poisoned or poached because they have no value to the locals. If people are willing to pay a lot of money to hunt an animal, then it is more likely that the locals will not kill them off. Also, the moneyh spent on sport hunts goes to conservation efforts to stop poaching.

[Sir Suomi]

I disagree with the act of sport hunting. While I believe you should enjoy hunting (Which I most certainly do) I don't believe in the act of killing an animal just for the fact that you're killing a unique animal to show off. As a frequent deer/turkey hunter, I thank every animal I kill and make sure to use as much of their remains as possible. I act as any other predator would do in nature.

[Drewboyy]

It was for conservation, and perfectly within his rights. If anything, conservation hunting is much more beneficial than lettin an animal die.

[DriveAlive]

It was for conservation, and perfectly within his rights. If anything, conservation hunting is much more beneficial than lettin an animal die.

conservation sport hunting is very beneficial, but he was not in his legal rights

[Drewboyy]

conservation sport hunting is very beneficial, but he was not in his legal rights

As far as he was concerned he was. Which is why the guides who helped him were charged and he wasn't.

[DriveAlive]

As far as he was concerned he was. Which is why the guides who helped him were charged and he wasn't.

from the professional hunters I have talked to, they seem to think that he knew it was illegal and will probably be prosecuted

[Drewboyy]

from the professional hunters I have talked to, they seem to think that he knew it was illegal and will probably be prosecuted

He did have "permits" that he thought were real. He paid money for them.

[DriveAlive]

He did have "permits" that he thought were real. He paid money for them.

thats what he is saying now, but he had to be there when they destroyed the tracking device and left the body. This implies that he knew the hunt was illegal and was afraid of being caught.

[Drewboyy]

thats what he is saying now, but he had to be there when they destroyed the tracking device and left the body. This implies that he knew the hunt was illegal and was afraid of being caught.

After apologizing he said he didn't realize that Cecil had a collar until they went up to it to take a picture.

[DriveAlive]

After apologizing he said he didn't realize that Cecil had a collar until they went up to it to take a picture.

I believe they didn't know it was cecil or being tracked. That is why they tried to get out of there fast and destroy the evidence when they realized what they had done.

[Babs]

As far as he was concerned he was. Which is why the guides who helped him were charged and he wasn't.

"As far as he was concerned" don't mean shit.

[Uniquemind]

Well right now he is in hiding.

And his public statements of him willing to cooperate with law enforcement hasn't panned out.

As of this post the department of fish and game have attempted to reach out to him, but he has not replied back. Some type of compliance, he's probably lawyering up.


I do feel bad for any person though whose job or livelihood is tied into working under him at his dentist offices.

They shouldn't suffer monetary loss but they are.

If he wants to make any sort of public amends he should voluntarily give up his hobby and repent with significant monies to anti-poaching causes.

[Gwen]

Just an update to my own post if anyone still has interest in this story, Jericho the other male lion has let Cecil's cubs live and has some of his own cubs in the Pride. Another lion was also killed but it has been confirmed to not be Jericho. The pride will survive and Cecil's death shouldn't affect the pride in the long run.

[Drewboyy]

"As far as he was concerned" don't mean shit.

Let's say you paid an airport to go on a plane to Australia but the same plane went to China instead. Would you take "I don't care what your concerns are. They are shit. " from the airport?

[Miserabilia]

Honestly who still cares. What matters at this point is that the whole world decided to collectively hate on a single person with no regard to their life, privacy, or feelings.
A man's entire life is thrown online for the world to see and he will probably have to face hate for it for the rest of his life just because people on the internet like to feel like they're doing good by sharing a story and saying how bad they think it is.

[Babs]

Let's say you paid an airport to go on a plane to Australia but the same plane went to China instead. Would you take "I don't care what your concerns are. They are shit. " from the airport?

I honestly don't care about the lion or the fuckin airport or whatever. But if the guy's a poacher, he's a poacher. That's that.

[Drewboyy]

I honestly don't care about the lion or the fuckin airport or whatever. But if the guy's a poacher, he's a poacher. That's that.


I don't either but I think it's unfair to him that he was tricked. Usually people pay the African govt. to hunt endangered, but troubled animals so the money goes towards not poaching, the meat goes to villages, and the species gets protected from the problem animal, then keep the trophy for bragging rights. That's what he thought he was doing, that's why he paid 55k, but he payed illegal guiders (who got prosecuted).

[Uniquemind]

I don't either but I think it's unfair to him that he was tricked. Usually people pay the African govt. to hunt endangered, but troubled animals so the money goes towards not poaching, the meat goes to villages, and the species gets protected from the problem animal, then keep the trophy for bragging rights. That's what he thought he was doing, that's why he paid 55k, but he payed illegal guiders (who got prosecuted).

He's at fault for not doing better research on his guides.

[Drewboyy]

He's at fault for not doing better research on his guides.

It's the guides fault for lying about their business.

[phuckphace]

It's the guides fault for lying about their business.

we're totally legit, sir, not even lion

[Uniquemind]

It's the guides fault for lying about their business.

People lie to people, that's how our world has function since humanity was born.

He should've done his research more intensively on his guides.

Are the guides main sources of blame, absolutely, but that does not excuse his participation and failure to find Legit guides.

There is also speculation he's making this defense up.

[DriveAlive]

People lie to people, that's how our world has function since humanity was born.

He should've done his research more intensively on his guides.

Are the guides main sources of blame, absolutely, but that does not excuse his participation and failure to find Legit guides.

There is also speculation he's making this defense up.

Gotta agree here. You can't take any chances with that much money and the possible consequences on the line.

[Body odah Man]

Don't judge a man until you know him well.

I feel sorry for Cecil though

[Drewboyy]

People lie to people, that's how our world has function since humanity was born.

He should've done his research more intensively on his guides.

Are the guides main sources of blame, absolutely, but that does not excuse his participation and failure to find Legit guides.

There is also speculation he's making this defense up.

Okay. I was off by saying he was lied to, thank you media for just recently deciding to put more information supporting the dentist.

It's not even that he was lied to. The guides were a legitimate source, they have given hundreds of people permits to hunt various animals in that area with no problem. It wasn't until after the fact that the dentist and the guides realized the lion was collared and a very popular one at that.

People pay this trusted company with the intention of the guides leading them to the specified animal so they can hunt and do what they want with it afterwards. That's what the dentist was trying to do until the guides lead him to the wrong animal and he hunted the animal they told him he could hunt.

[DriveAlive]

Okay. I was off by saying he was lied to, thank you media for just recently deciding to put more information supporting the dentist.

It's not even that he was lied to. The guides were a legitimate source, they have given hundreds of people permits to hunt various animals in that area with no problem. It wasn't until after the fact that the dentist and the guides realized the lion was collared and a very popular one at that.

People pay this trusted company with the intention of the guides leading them to the specified animal so they can hunt and do what they want with it afterwards. That's what the dentist was trying to do until the guides lead him to the wrong animal and he hunted the animal they told him he could hunt.
I have many questions about how "reputable" this outfitter is. I have never hunted Zim and I don't know the name of the outfitter in question, but I could ask some of the PHs I know if I found out the outfitter. With that said, I don't think ignorance or conplacency is a defense for breaking the law. I get that if a PH tells you that you can shoot, you usually trust them, but if something was fishy then you would have a sense that something was up.

[Drewboyy]

I have many questions about how "reputable" this outfitter is. I have never hunted Zim and I don't know the name of the outfitter in question, but I could ask some of the PHs I know if I found out the outfitter. With that said, I don't think ignorance or conplacency is a defense for breaking the law. I get that if a PH tells you that you can shoot, you usually trust them, but if something was fishy then you would have a sense that something was up.

It's "bushman safari" if I'm not mistaken. And you are correct, ignorance is not viable in court of law (at least in the U.S.). However, when you pay professionals that much money who know the area inside out and get multiple permits then it'd do you best to listen to them.

Someone in the heat of the moment that knows he can legally shoot the lion he is being told he can shoot he will shoot it so it does not endanger his life, or ruin the hunt.

He signed up for the hunt, not closing his business down, putting his family through all this hate, and getting threats from people because of a faulty guide.

[DriveAlive]

It's "bushman safari" if I'm not mistaken. And you are correct, ignorance is not viable in court of law (at least in the U.S.). However, when you pay professionals that much money who know the area inside out and get multiple permits then it'd do you best to listen to them.

Someone in the heat of the moment that knows he can legally shoot the lion he is being told he can shoot he will shoot it so it does not endanger his life, or ruin the hunt.

He signed up for the hunt, not closing his business down, putting his family through all this hate, and getting threats from people because of a faulty guide.

You're right on that. I will be hunting cape buffalo and maybe a lion next year and I know that I will shoot in the heat of the moment. Its a pretty big deal to get to do so. Also, I will look into Bushman Safaris and let you know what I think.

[Drewboyy]

You're right on that. I will be hunting cape buffalo and maybe a lion next year and I know that I will shoot in the heat of the moment. Its a pretty big deal to get to do so. Also, I will look into Bushman Safaris and let you know what I think.

I haven't hunted anything big yet since I'm only 14 but I've hunted rather large deer. You are lucky with the lion And okay with bushman

[DriveAlive]

I haven't hunted anything big yet since I'm only 14 but I've hunted rather large deer. You are lucky with the lion And okay with bushman
Thanks and I am so excited. I have hunted Africa once already only for plains game and it was the best time of my life.

[Drewboyy]

Thanks and I am so excited. I have hunted Africa once already only for plains game and it was the best time of my life.

Well what do you think of bushman?

[DriveAlive]

Everything I have heard about them is that they are a small operation that used lots of land that was a part of the Zimbabwean land reclamation from white owners. This usually means that the hunters and landowners are not reputable. Not to mention, he did not have a lion quota on the land.

[tonymontana99]

In the last few days probably all of you have heard about the killing of Cecil (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecil_(lion)), Zimbabwe's iconic lion and now the world's most famous lion.

Cecil was killed by an American dentist, Walter James Palmer (http://edition.cnn.com/2015/07/28/africa/zimbabwe-lion-killed/).

This man has now become the most hated person in the Internet probably.

What do you think about his actions? Do you think he really didn't knew he was hunting Cecil?

Personally, I can't stand this kind of people. "I hunt for sport and blah blah blah". Bullshit, effing sadist. And I think he knew very well what he was doing.

I have mixed feelings about this whole situation. I don't think legal hunting is wrong, it's part of our culture and has been practised since the dawn of man. But he should've gotten a better guide and a rifle. I mean, who goes hunting a lion with a bow and arrow from that distance? Having that said, the media is completely blowing this situation out of proportions. Sure, he effed up. But people, let's get real: it's an animal. Fine him and get over it. Poor guy has his life ruined just because he was set up with an incompetent scout for a hunt he legally paid for.

[DriveAlive]

I have mixed feelings about this whole situation. I don't think legal hunting is wrong, it's part of our culture and has been practised since the dawn of man. But he should've gotten a better guide and a rifle. I mean, who goes hunting a lion with a bow and arrow from that distance? Having that said, the media is completely blowing this situation out of proportions. Sure, he effed up. But people, let's get real: it's an animal. Fine him and get over it. Poor guy has his life ruined just because he was set up with an incompetent scout for a hunt he legally paid for.
Its more than "just an animal". It was a lion, which is part of an extremely threatened and protected species. If more people thought like this, the lion population would be extinct by now. Also, his actions jeopardize the opportunity for other hunters to get to hunt lion. Most of all, though, Cecil was a huge tourist attraction that brought in substantial money to the Zimbabwe economy. His thoughtless actions are the difference between a well sustained tourist industry and families not eating. On the issue of the bow, that is a valid method for hunting lion. I see nothing wrong with using one, per se. It just wouldn't be my choice, especially at night. Also, its not as romantic as a double rifle hunt.

[tonymontana99]

Its more than "just an animal". It was a lion, which is part of an extremely threatened and protected species. If more people thought like this, the lion population would be extinct by now. Also, his actions jeopardize the opportunity for other hunters to get to hunt lion. Most of all, though, Cecil was a huge tourist attraction that brought in substantial money to the Zimbabwe economy. His thoughtless actions are the difference between a well sustained tourist industry and families not eating. On the issue of the bow, that is a valid method for hunting lion. I see nothing wrong with using one, per se. It just wouldn't be my choice, especially at night. Also, its not as romantic as a double rifle hunt.

Yes, it is unfortunate that Zimbabwe's tourism will take a hit because of this.

[Uniquemind]

I have mixed feelings about this whole situation. I don't think legal hunting is wrong, it's part of our culture and has been practised since the dawn of man. But he should've gotten a better guide and a rifle. I mean, who goes hunting a lion with a bow and arrow from that distance? Having that said, the media is completely blowing this situation out of proportions. Sure, he effed up. But people, let's get real: it's an animal. Fine him and get over it. Poor guy has his life ruined just because he was set up with an incompetent scout for a hunt he legally paid for.

I will counter you and say 2 things.

1. No "poor guy" the guy has enough money to close up shop and retire and live a quiet life as a hermit. Everything else he does he does out of a thirst for fun and luxury.

2. There are plenty of humans, what makes him not be hunted while a scarce resource of a certain lion breed being killed as "just an animal". Not seem to bug you from a numbers standpoint.

[tonymontana99]

I will counter you and say 2 things.

1. No "poor guy" the guy has enough money to close up shop and retire and live a quiet life as a hermit. Everything else he does he does out of a thirst for fun and luxury.

2. There are plenty of humans, what makes him not be hunted while a scarce resource of a certain lion breed being killed as "just an animal". Not seem to bug you from a numbers standpoint.

Lol you're not going to compare the life of a doctor to the life of a lion. We don't hunt each other, that's generally illegal. Just like how he killed the lion. He deserves to be punished and pay a fine, not be lynched out of town like the media wants him to.

[phuckphace]

If more people thought like this, the lion population would be extinct by now.

you really like the "if everyone did X" argument don't you

[Stronk Serb]

Did he kill an endangered specie without permission? The fact that he was tricked is bad, but he still commited a crime. Prosecute him.

[DriveAlive]

you really like the "if everyone did X" argument don't you
You really don't see how if the Chinese and poachers are allowed to kill lions with the only punishment being a small fine, then the lion population would go extinct, do you.

[phuckphace]

You really don't see how if the Chinese and poachers are allowed to kill lions with the only punishment being a small fine, then the lion population would go extinct, do you.

how about a big fine then

doesn't change the fact that yes, it is still just an animal.

[Porpoise101]

A lion is just an animal, but who said animals aren't important? After the sun, humans (a sentient animal), and plants, animals are the most powerful force on the planet. Humans need animals to maintain some form of ecological balance. In extreme conditions the absence of animals or the abundance of them can severely disrupt the land and the climate as a result. Animals can also bring in tourism which is important for countries like Zimbabwe which could use the money.

Take the Australian great barrier reef for example. Because people killed a type of predatory snail for shells, the population of a coral eating starfish exploded. This destroys local fisheries and also harms the local tourism industry and causes lots of human and environmental damage.

That is just one scenario in the history of our planet but it shows the importance of environmental stewardship. Hunting and killing endangered species should be discouraged as much as possible, and while it was just one lion, it is important to prosecute him if he broke laws as a symbolic measure at least. And I am not opposed to hunting where the species is out of control like white deer in Michigan or nutria in the bayou, I just don't want the bounty of the earth to be overexploited.

[DriveAlive]

A lion is just an animal, but who said animals aren't important? After the sun, humans (a sentient animal), and plants, animals are the most powerful force on the planet. Humans need animals to maintain some form of ecological balance. In extreme conditions the absence of animals or the abundance of them can severely disrupt the land and the climate as a result. Animals can also bring in tourism which is important for countries like Zimbabwe which could use the money.

Take the Australian great barrier reef for example. Because people killed a type of predatory snail for shells, the population of a coral eating starfish exploded. This destroys local fisheries and also harms the local tourism industry and causes lots of human and environmental damage.

That is just one scenario in the history of our planet but it shows the importance of environmental stewardship. Hunting and killing endangered species should be discouraged as much as possible, and while it was just one lion, it is important to prosecute him if he broke laws as a symbolic measure at least. And I am not opposed to hunting where the species is out of control like white deer in Michigan or nutria in the bayou, I just don't want the bounty of the earth to be overexploited.

I was agreeing with you up till the point where you said that killing endangered species should be discouraged. As I have stated previously, I am planning on hunting cape buffalo, lion, and maybe elephant in the near future. I believe that properly managed hunting is essential to conservation of endangered animals. I have also stated my example of the value of hte black rhino hunt that was auctioned off.
My point about the fine that I was trying to make is that the black market is willing to pay such exorbitantly high prices for dead endangered species to sell to China that poachers would happily pay a fine to continue poaching. That is why the park rangers in many African nations are allowed to shoot poachers on sight.

[Porpoise101]

See, maybe conservation hunting has a purpose but it should not be a permanent solution to raise funds for broke agencies. To me trophy hunting in general just seems to add more unneeded pressure on a species that is not needed especially when the species in question are endangered. If lion, buffalo, or elephant populations explode one day then maybe I'll warm up to trophy hunting but as of now I'm not convinced.

[phuckphace]

I agree with the general sentiment that people shouldn't go around indiscriminately killing wildlife, as it upsets the ecosystem and generally just isn't necessary at all

but Cecil's story is notorious because it hits all the right SJW notes - a poor innocent animal gets stalked and murdered with a big scary gun by a wealthy white cishet bigot (ugh!!!!!) it's got nothing to do with any practical concerns, just something to hashtag about while your society collapses

[tonymontana99]

A lion is just an animal, but who said animals aren't important? After the sun, humans (a sentient animal), and plants, animals are the most powerful force on the planet. Humans need animals to maintain some form of ecological balance. In extreme conditions the absence of animals or the abundance of them can severely disrupt the land and the climate as a result. Animals can also bring in tourism which is important for countries like Zimbabwe which could use the money.

Take the Australian great barrier reef for example. Because people killed a type of predatory snail for shells, the population of a coral eating starfish exploded. This destroys local fisheries and also harms the local tourism industry and causes lots of human and environmental damage.

That is just one scenario in the history of our planet but it shows the importance of environmental stewardship. Hunting and killing endangered species should be discouraged as much as possible, and while it was just one lion, it is important to prosecute him if he broke laws as a symbolic measure at least. And I am not opposed to hunting where the species is out of control like white deer in Michigan or nutria in the bayou, I just don't want the bounty of the earth to be overexploited.

Right, but when we develop some sort of completely artificial food replacement we won't kill every single animal on this planet (except for vegetation) out of good will. Also, look up the 2030 Agenda. They're planning to end extreme poverty and try to fix our climate by 2030, so I guess poor ol' Cecil wouldn't be so relevant anyways.

it hits all the right SJW notes - a poor innocent animal gets stalked and murdered with a big scary gun by a wealthy white cishet bigot (ugh!!!!!) it's got nothing to do with any practical concerns, just something to hashtag about while your society collapses

You, my friend... I like you.

Double post merged. ~Microcosm