Greece votes no on bailout

[World Eater]

Article from BBC. (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33403665)

Greek voters have decisively rejected the terms of an international bailout.

The final result in the referendum, published by the interior ministry, was 61.3% "No", against 38.7% who voted "Yes".

Greece's governing Syriza party had campaigned for a "No", saying the bailout terms were humiliating.

Their opponents warned that this could see Greece ejected from the eurozone, and a summit of eurozone heads of state has now been called for Tuesday.

Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras said late on Sunday that Greeks had voted for a "Europe of solidarity and democracy".

I guess we'll see how things turn out in the next few days.

[Stronk Serb]

Greece won't leave the Eurozone, but the EU wouldn't expel them that easily. Good call I think, telling the bankers to shove it.

[DriveAlive]

It would suck to be Greece right now. I have literally no compassion for that country. I feel that they dug themselves into this and they are only digging deeper. Someone please give Angela Merkel the keys to the parthenon.

[SethfromMI]

most of the world economies are not doing good despite what pretty stories the news may want to try to paint for us . America is over 17 trillion in debt and it is only getting worse. eventually our own economy is going to have a collapse of some sorts

[Stronk Serb]

It would suck to be Greece right now. I have literally no compassion for that country. I feel that they dug themselves into this and they are only digging deeper. Someone please give Angela Merkel the keys to the parthenon.

Mass corruption and puppets are the problem. I'm pretty sure average Greek folk didn't wabt that debt.

[brambox]

Mass corruption and puppets are the problem. I'm pretty sure average Greek folk didn't wabt that debt.
Government debt is never intentional...
Its partially the people's fault for evading taxes and being corrupt, and partially the government for doing nothing about it.

Also why did they have the referendum in the first place? "Vote yes if you want to pay, vote no if you don't". And now what? There's all these ultimatums in the news but nothing actually happens. Instead of bitching about the bailout they should focus on how they can actually repay their debt and not have the whole country go bankrupt.

[Stronk Serb]

Government debt is never intentional...
Its partially the people's fault for evading taxes and being corrupt, and partially the government for doing nothing about it.

Also why did they have the referendum in the first place? "Vote yes if you want to pay, vote no if you don't". And now what? There's all these ultimatums in the news but nothing actually happens. Instead of bitching about the bailout they should focus on how they can actually repay their debt and not have the whole country go bankrupt.

The way I figured it, they wrote off all their debt. They won't pay a single cent. It's not just about the people. A lit of politicians here are literally western pupets. Most Balkan countrues took enormous debts which they simply cannot repay, Greece has about 20 million people and a debt of about 325 billion €, that means on average, EACH CITIZEN owes about 16,250 €, a yearly wage of a low upper-class/high middle-class worker. The bankers are also irresponsible, giving out loans which cannot be repaid. Also you can't expect from a corrupt government to weed out corruption.

[DriveAlive]

The way I figured it, they wrote off all their debt. They won't pay a single cent. It's not just about the people. A lit of politicians here are literally western pupets. Most Balkan countrues took enormous debts which they simply cannot repay, Greece has about 20 million people and a debt of about 325 billion €, that means on average, EACH CITIZEN owes about 16,250 €, a yearly wage of a low upper-class/high middle-class worker. The bankers are also irresponsible, giving out loans which cannot be repaid. Also you can't expect from a corrupt government to weed out corruption.
So are we supposed to be supporting the Greek rejection of the referendum? As I see it, the country is mismanaged, the economy is unsupportable, and there is no signs of growth because people there refuse to change (Im avoiding the word lazy for now). Now they are going to have to live on their own and will fail miserably. Its like if you are a terrible student and your parents tell you that if you don't get your grades up, theyll ban you from playing video games and ground you. In reply, you tell them to go fuck themselves and instead would rather live on your own.

[Stronk Serb]

So are we supposed to be supporting the Greek rejection of the referendum? As I see it, the country is mismanaged, the economy is unsupportable, and there is no signs of growth because people there refuse to change (Im avoiding the word lazy for now). Now they are going to have to live on their own and will fail miserably. Its like if you are a terrible student and your parents tell you that if you don't get your grades up, theyll ban you from playing video games and ground you. In reply, you tell them to go fuck themselves and instead would rather live on your own.

Those examples hardly relate. The bankers knew full well what they were doing. I fully support the Greeks because their former government is identical to our current corrupt government and they took a step in the right direction by electing Tsipras. The bailout terms were humiliating and the measures dictated by the bankers do jack shit to actually repay the debts.

[DriveAlive]

Those examples hardly relate. The bankers knew full well what they were doing. I fully support the Greeks because their former government is identical to our current corrupt government and they took a step in the right direction by electing Tsipras. The bailout terms were humiliating and the measures dictated by the bankers do jack shit to actually repay the debts.
Could you please explain how the terms were humiliating? Ive heard the greeks throw it around, but all I see is pride.

[Stronk Serb]

Could you please explain how the terms were humiliating? Ive heard the greeks throw it around, but all I see is pride.

Further cuts to pensions and wages, further raising of taxes. It's called austerity measures and they do jack shit in helping you pay off the debt, but the bankers like to skip that one and it actually does help.

[Body odah Man]

Article from BBC. (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33403665)



I guess we'll see how things turn out in the next few days.

as an EU resident, this is very very worrisome. Those Greeks could realy screw up the euro and internal politics. That Tsipras. Eugh

[DriveAlive]

Further cuts to pensions and wages, further raising of taxes. It's called austerity measures and they do jack shit in helping you pay off the debt, but the bankers like to skip that one and it actually does help.

I see it very similar to the plans that Governor Bruce Rauner has for Illinois. The point is to make sure there is an economy left to pay them back. Remember, the bank's goal is to collect their debt.

[Living For Love]

The problem with Greece and other southern European countries was the enormous amount of money they suddenly were "given" when joining the Euro and the European Union. The Greek government created a lot of jobs and other opportunities/privileges for the Greeks, and now they simply can't support it, since they don't have any other means of getting money except by taxes (which weren't always paid). I'm no expert in Economics, and I actually wished I knew more about it, but I think that, whatever it costs, they should pay their debts just like other countries did/are doing. This whole movement of "We don't pay!" under the argument that they aren't a "German colony" is simply retrograde and dishonours the Greek people.

[Judean Zealot]

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned how Germany's prosperity is entirely due to the London Debt Agreement of 1953, in which Germany's debts of 32,000,000,000 Marks was reduced by 50% and extended over a 30 year period.

While I feel bad for the ordinary Greeks who are suffering, I am glad for all of Southern Europe that somebody is hitting back at a predatory institution.

[Exocet]

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned how Germany's prosperity is entirely due to the London Debt Agreement of 1953, in which Germany's debts of 32,000,000,000 Marks was reduced by 50% and extended over a 30 year period.

Comparing post-war Germany with present day Greece is kind of absurd IMO.

[Judean Zealot]

Comparing post-war Germany with present day Greece is kind of absurd IMO.

In what sense? Blame? Capacity to repay?

[Living For Love]

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned how Germany's prosperity is entirely due to the London Debt Agreement of 1953, in which Germany's debts of 32,000,000,000 Marks was reduced by 50% and extended over a 30 year period.
Not really, it's due to extensive and profound reforms in the German economy after the WWII that eventually led to its economical development (google Wirtschaftswunder).

[Judean Zealot]

Not really, it's due to extensive and profound reforms in the German economy after the WWII that eventually led to its economical development (google Wirtschaftswunder).

Obviously debt relief alone can't build an economy, but without the debt relief agreement it would've been an abortion.

And yeah, I could've worded that post better. Sorry.

[DriveAlive]

Why do we feel bad for the Greeks? They borrowed money on the promise to repay, and once it was time, they decided to refuse. The gov. is irresponsible, the people are ignorant, and all anyone is talking about is how evil Germany is.

[Stronk Serb]

I see it very similar to the plans that Governor Bruce Rauner has for Illinois.

The problem with that is that you prevent the buildup of wealth and higher taxes will put many businesses out.
Lower wages + more taxes = less profits + extra money to pay for taxes + higher prices of goods purchased for retail because firms which sell at large need to adapt to higher taxes. Those are austerity measures in a nutshell and Greece has implemented those, the bankers just said increas it all for the bailout.

The point is to make sure there is an economy left to pay them back. Remember, the bank's goal is to collect their debt.

Austerity measures prevent maintaining a healthy economy and as such lower if not eliminate the chances of repaying the debt.

[DriveAlive]

I heard on the news today that the age of pension retirement in Greece is 48. Its things like this that the Greek gov. is doing that are ruining that country. Not to mention, all they do is borrow more and more money instead of enacting any reform. Its ridiculous. You can't just borrow 200 billion euros and then decide not to pay back your debt while also asking to borrow even more.

[Stronk Serb]

I heard on the news today that the age of pension retirement in Greece is 48. Its things like this that the Greek gov. is doing that are ruining that country. Not to mention, all they do is borrow more and more money instead of enacting any reform. Its ridiculous. You can't just borrow 200 billion euros and then decide not to pay back your debt while also asking to borrow even more.

Apparently they can. Countries now get indebted even more to pay off their old debts which makes no sense, but the bankers force it down on countries. While reform is required, I think all austerity measures shoukd be abandoned because they force countries to get more in debt and in turn go bankrupt and have to sell themselves, literally. Also Greece could demand from Germany to write 250 billion € off the debt because of you know, occupation and oppression.

[Vlerchan]

Not to mention, all they do is borrow more and more money instead of enacting any reform.
Greece have been enacting reforms since 2008. It had a primary budget surplus in December 2014.

It's been borrowing to pay back it's previous borrowings it had to take out. The reason people also want Greece to get their debt cut - or at least re-structured - and the timeframe for the cuts and hikes extended is because it's making things a lot worse. It's an economy based around non-exporting small firms. Eliminating national demand undermines these small firms. Because - fun fact - since the reforms started in 2008 or so Greek GDP has dropped 25% - production in all its various sectors [except agriculture] has fallen leaps.

People are also in opposition to the Germans in particular because to them this is more about making things looking awful for Portuguese and Spanish voters and punishing Greeks more than it is about affecting genuine economic change in Greece. This change will also require reforms - You can trust I'm a lot more free market than most of the posters in this thread - but there's nothing sane about the manner in which these reforms are being rolled out right now.

[Onlyfaith]

I'm from Greece and that was the best move that we have done the last 5 years... we show that we are not afraid! Cause simply we don't... they can't get us anything... we have nothing to lose

[DriveAlive]

I'm from Greece and that was the best move that we have done the last 5 years... we show that we are not afraid! Cause simply we don't... they can't get us anything... we have nothing to lose

This 'we are not afraid' attitude is exactly what I am talking about! This isn't Germany trying to invade Greece and the people valiently fending hem off. This is Greece refusing to pay their 200 billion euro debt while also asking for another 80 billion euros. The problem is with the greek government who has been spending beyong their means without enough revenue. There aren't enough taxes in greece to cover its spending. Honestly, the EU would be much better without Greece.

[Microcosm]

This 'we are not afraid' attitude is exactly what I am talking about! This isn't Germany trying to invade Greece and the people valiently fending hem off. This is Greece refusing to pay their 200 billion euro debt while also asking for another 80 billion euros. The problem is with the greek government who has been spending beyong their means without enough revenue. There aren't enough taxes in greece to cover its spending. Honestly, the EU would be much better without Greece.

I wish I knew more about this situation.

From what I can see, it would be a good decision for Greece to leave the EU and work their shit out. Perhaps once they deal with their spending and governmental problems at home, then they can be accepted back into the euro zone. Something like that.

[Vlerchan]

Rainbow Dash: It wouldn't be a good idea for Greece to leave the EU. It's debt is denominated in Euros - and if it left the Euro and went back onto the Drachma then it's debt would balloon [because the exchange rate would collapse]. Unless Greece defaulted on all its debts - I supported this back 6 months ago: but it's less feasible now.

I'll also point out that DriveAlive's repetition doesn't undermine the claims I made.

---

I'll also point back that Tsiparis passed all the fiscal consolidation measures the other night - doing what would have occured as if 'Yes' had passed.

[DriveAlive]

Rainbow Dash: It wouldn't be a good idea for Greece to leave the EU. It's debt is denominated in Euros - and if it left the Euro and went back onto the Drachma then it's debt would balloon [because the exchange rate would collapse]. Unless Greece defaulted on all its debts - I supported this back 6 months ago: but it's less feasible now.

I'll also point out that DriveAlive's repetition doesn't undermine the claims I made.

---

I'll also point back that Tsiparis passed all the fiscal consolidation measures the other night - doing what would have occured as if 'Yes' had passed.
Claims? What claims? No one is making claims here. We are jousting stating our opinions. That is, unless, I missed your posts of global economic analysis from top economists regarding the situation. Otherwise, all you have said is that Germany sucks and Greece shouldn't pay. All I have said is that Greece sucks and should pay.

[Vlerchan]

Otherwise, all you have said is that Germany sucks and Greece shouldn't pay.
Ok. Here's the latest report from the IMF supporting the idea that Greece can't pay.

Coming on top of the very high existing debt, these new financing needs render the debt dynamics unsustainable. This conclusion holds whether one examines the stock of debt under the November 2012 framework or switches the focus to debt servicing or gross financing needs. To ensure that debt is sustainable with high probability, Greek policies will need to come back on track but also, at a minimum, the maturities of existing European loans will need to be extended significantly while new European financing to meet financing needs over the coming years will need to be provided on similar concessional terms. But if the package of reforms under consideration is weakened further—in particular, through a further lowering of primary surplus targets and even weaker structural reforms—haircuts on debt will become necessary.

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/cat/longres.aspx?sk=43044

Here is a graph supporting the claims I made about diminishing aggregate demand contributing towards the shrinkage of the Greek economy. I have included below that this is occurring whilst exports have increased - Please note the margins at the minuscule proprtion exports actually make up of the Greek economy.
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/charts/greece-government-spending.png?s=greecegovspe&d1=20080101&d2=20151231&URL2=/greece/gdp&title=false
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/charts/greece-consumer-spending.png?s=greececonspe&d1=20080101&d2=20151231&URL2=/greece/gdp&title=falsehttp://www.tradingeconomics.com/charts/greece-exports.png?s=gktbexe&d1=20080101&d2=20151231&URL2=/greece/gdp&title=false
I can provide the generalised empirical and theoretical literature as requested.

This is also the latest comments of Eurozone finance ministers and so on in consideration of the Greek situation. These people are quite adamant on continuing with an economic arrangement that's brought about the further immiseration of Greek people. Since it's quite obvious that this isn't sound economics - it's obviously being done on a political platform.

Or European leaders are just stupid.

http://www.sven-giegold.de/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/grexit_bundesregierung_non_paper_10_juli_2015.pdf

I'm not just claiming that Germany sucks and Greece doesn't.