What is wrong with our education system?

[Judean Zealot]

Many will say that our schools are too demanding, that they overburden kids (the appelation 'kid' persisting until a man's early twenties), and that they must relax their standards.

In light of that, I would like to share this excerpt from Dorothy Sayers' essay, The Lost Tools of Learning, which I have just yesterday been introduced to. The essay in it's entirety can be found here (http://www.gbt.org/text/sayers.html), although I don't feel it is necessary for the discussion I want to have. What do you feel about the points she brings up?
When we think about the remarkably early age at which the young men went up to university in, let us say, Tudor times, and thereafter were held fit to assume responsibility for the conduct of their own affairs, are we altogether comfortable about that artificial prolongation of intellectual childhood and adolescence into the years of physical maturity which is so marked in our own day? To postpone the acceptance of responsibility to a late date brings with it a number of psychological complications which, while they may interest the psychiatrist, are scarcely beneficial either to the individual or to society. The stock argument in favor of postponing the school-leaving age and prolonging the period of education generally is there is now so much more to learn than there was in the Middle Ages. This is partly true, but not wholly. The modern boy and girl are certainly taught more subjects--but does that always mean that they actually know more?
Has it ever struck you as odd, or unfortunate, that today, when the proportion of literacy throughout Western Europe is higher than it has ever been, people should have become susceptible to the influence of advertisement and mass propaganda to an extent hitherto unheard of and unimagined? Do you put this down to the mere mechanical fact that the press and the radio and so on have made propaganda much easier to distribute over a wide area? Or do you sometimes have an uneasy suspicion that the product of modern educational methods is less good than he or she might be at disentangling fact from opinion and the proven from the plausible?
Have you ever, in listening to a debate among adult and presumably responsible people, been fretted by the extraordinary inability of the average debater to speak to the question, or to meet and refute the arguments of speakers on the other side? Or have you ever pondered upon the extremely high incidence of irrelevant matter which crops up at committee meetings, and upon the very great rarity of persons capable of acting as chairmen of committees? And when you think of this, and think that most of our public affairs are settled by debates and committees, have you ever felt a certain sinking of the heart?
Have you ever followed a discussion in the newspapers or elsewhere and noticed how frequently writers fail to define the terms they use? Or how often, if one man does define his terms, another will assume in his reply that he was using the terms in precisely the opposite sense to that in which he has already defined them? Have you ever been faintly troubled by the amount of slipshod syntax going about? And, if so, are you troubled because it is inelegant or because it may lead to dangerous misunderstanding?
Do you ever find that young people, when they have left school, not only forget most of what they have learnt (that is only to be expected), but forget also, or betray that they have never really known, how to tackle a new subject for themselves? Are you often bothered by coming across grown-up men and women who seem unable to distinguish between a book that is sound, scholarly, and properly documented, and one that is, to any trained eye, very conspicuously none of these things? Or who cannot handle a library catalogue? Or who, when faced with a book of reference, betray a curious inability to extract from it the passages relevant to the particular question which interests them?
Do you often come across people for whom, all their lives, a "subject" remains a "subject," divided by watertight bulkheads from all other "subjects," so that they experience very great difficulty in making an immediate mental connection between let us say, algebra and detective fiction, sewage disposal and the price of salmon--or, more generally, between such spheres of knowledge as philosophy and economics, or chemistry and art?

Bear in mind, this essay was written in 1947. Since then the education system has changed tremendously, yet what do we have to show for it? What do we have to show for the increased liberalization of education (and I don't mean that in the sense of 'liberal arts'), the wide scale drugging of the student body, and the ever increasing shelter mentality of our schools and even colleges?

[Microcosm]

Education is not natural anymore. Schools push us to make good grades because it makes the school look good rather than because it gives their kids a better, more real and vivid education.

[Judean Zealot]

Education is not natural anymore. Schools push us to make good grades because it makes the school look good rather than because it gives their kids a better, more real and vivid education.

But how was education different in that respect in earlier times, when students would undeniably reach intellectual maturity way earlier (and in a more substantive manner)?

Education then was even more rigid than it is now!

[Microcosm]

But how was education different in that respect in earlier times, when students would undeniably reach intellectual maturity way earlier (and in a more substantive manner)?

Education then was even more rigid than it is now!

I will provide a response, but I doubt it will withstand strict reasoning.

I think it's probably because back then you were probably more severely punished for complaining about it.

[Judean Zealot]

I will provide a response, but I doubt it will withstand strict reasoning.

I think it's probably because back then you were probably more severely punished for complaining about it.

Ergo, nowadays schools ought to be much more authoritarian.

I don't necessarily think that this is the reason, but I do agree with it fundamentally.

[Melodic]

They ruin the idea of learning. It's a waste of time to be learning stuff because it's required to graduate. I can tell you without a doubt that learning Algebra isn't going to get me anywhere successfully as a performer. It may help someone who's going in that field later in life. Kudos to them, they can learn it. Why am I stuck with learning stuff like Algebra when it won't affect me at all in the future? When it doesn't interest me? So many kids are focused on passing these subjects than learning them. But who could blame them if it doesn't interest them? That's why I think the education system is messed up.

[Bull]

I think too many idiots (law makers at state and national levels) are making decisions that should be left to education professionals. High stakes tests make the classroom more like preparation for being a game show participant than prepared for college and/or a career. I am grateful that I had teachers who refused to teach to the test and pushed us to learn concepts, how to analyze, evaluate, and apply those concepts to real life situations. Also, I think too many "students" want to be entertained and to make an easy grade. Students are often their own worse enemy when it comes to learning. Teachers can lead us to the fountain of knowledge but it is our (students) responsibility to drink there from. The learning environment should be rigorous, relevant, and preparatory.

[Judean Zealot]

I think too many idiots (law makers at state and national levels) are making decisions that should be left to education professionals. High stakes tests make the classroom more like preparation for being a game show participant than prepared for college and/or a career. I am grateful that I had teachers who refused to teach to the test and pushed us to learn concepts, how to analyze, evaluate, and apply those concepts to real life situations. Also, I think too many "students" want to be entertained and to make an easy grade. Students are often their own worse enemy when it comes to learning. Teachers can lead us to the fountain of knowledge but it is our (students) responsibility to drink there from. The learning environment should be rigorous, relevant, and preparatory.

Preparatory to what end? To a career? To subvert knowledge and to turn it into merely the whore of capital?

If one dismisses knowledge in any form as 'useless', he is perpetuating the systemic problem in our society, that knowledge is no longer valued as knowledge itself, just encouraged because it can make you money.

Once you say that, than the average student is correct in his repudiation of, say, history and civics. After all, it doesn't make him money!

[Bull]

Preparatory to what end? To a career? To subvert knowledge and to turn it into merely the whore of capital?

If one dismisses knowledge in any form as 'useless', he is perpetuating the systemic problem in our society, that knowledge is no longer valued as knowledge itself, just encouraged because it can make you money.

Once you say that, than the average student is correct in his repudiation of, say, history and civics. After all, it doesn't make him money!

Nothing wrong with capital, it is what makes economics work. Knowledge for knowledge sake is impractical. Knowledge should result in improved life for self and others. Agreed not all knowledge will make one rich with money but will enrich your life. I stand by my comment!

[Judean Zealot]

Nothing wrong with capital, it is what makes economics work. Making money is not (or ought not to be) a primary goal in life. That doesn't mean one shouldn't make money, but ultimately it's a crude and shallow goal. It is something which perverts virtue and elevates fools.
Knowledge for knowledge sake is impractical.Not really. It was the ideal for the Greeks, Romans, Moors, Scholastics... just about everybody until our money worshipping society.
Knowledge should result in improved life for self and others. But how does one go about improving his life? The ordering of the soul is infinitely more meaningful than anything money or fame can offer.

I'm sorry if I'm being harsh but I find the idea of subverting knowledge for money repulsive in the extreme.

[Bull]

Nothing wrong with making money. It buys food, shelter, clothing, health care, in other words: the necessities of life. Sorry if that repulses you. End of discussion!

[Microcosm]

Ergo, nowadays schools ought to be much more authoritarian.

I don't necessarily think that this is the reason, but I do agree with it fundamentally.

Not that they ought to be, but I mean that would be an explanation for why people cared more about their education and were more successful in it back in the day.

[Judean Zealot]

Nothing wrong with making money. It buys food, shelter, clothing, health care, in other words: the necessities of life. Sorry if that repulses you. End of discussion!

Making money =/= compromising other more important things for money.

Not that they ought to be, but I mean that would be an explanation for why people cared more about their education and were more successful in it back in the day.

I don't understand. You think we should willingly compromise our education?

What for?



Posts merged. Next time, please use the "Multi" quote button. -Alluring

[Bull]

There is nothing for which education should be compromised. However you seem to disparage using one's education to make money, with which I have a major disagreement. If I have misunderstood your position, I am sorry. I am using my education to make money to pay for college so I can gain more knowledge. Please explain how this, in your opinion, is bad.

[Aajj333]

My education system values grades above learning: it is more important for students to cheat to appease teachers/ parents then actually learn the material. Teachers are not paid enough and they do not always care. One of the classic examples of the problems of school is getting deducted points because you solved a problem a different way then you were taught, killing your creativity. Schools treat you as a prisoner during your time there: similar conditions in the work place such as having to ask to use the bathroom would be considered abuse and illegal. They treat women as sexual objects with their rules regarding clothing and do not maintain a safe environment with allowing terrorist symbols such as the confederate flag. They are willing to risk a students life by not closing school on days where driving conditions are hazardis, especially being a students potentially first time being exposed to deadly conditions. Schools are still deeply embedded in racism from a former time of segregation.

[phuckphace]

I was reading a PDF of an old book for schoolboys about the extinct faunae of Great Britain, originally published in the 1870s. one thing that always jumps out at you reading old literature for teens is how highbrow the language and level of discourse was in those days - the author of the book would frequently cite old Greek, Roman and medieval writers in the original Latin & Greek with no English translation given. current number of 15 year old American students in 2015 able to read a word of those languages = zero (but they can KS you in LoL until you ragequit)

[Judean Zealot]

There is nothing for which education should be compromised. However you seem to disparage using one's education to make money, with which I have a major disagreement. If I have misunderstood your position, I am sorry. I am using my education to make money to pay for college so I can gain more knowledge. Please explain how this, in your opinion, is bad.

I am not disparaging you or anybody else for going about like this; you are part of broken a system. You have to do what you have to do.

My scorn is at the system itself. They have substituted money making as their goal in place of actually developing the mind. You're a success if you're a boorish CEO, but if you have a solid background in the classics and humanities you will be looked at as some sort of benign parasite. I think the reason for this ever increasing negative trend lies in what phuckphace was saying:
I was reading a PDF of an old book for schoolboys about the extinct faunae of Great Britain, originally published in the 1870s. one thing that always jumps out at you reading old literature for teens is how highbrow the language and level of discourse was in those days - the author of the book would frequently cite old Greek, Roman and medieval writers in the original Latin & Greek with no English translation given. current number of 15 year old American students in 2015 able to read a word of those languages = zero (but they can KS you in LoL until you ragequit)

We have abandoned the ancients and scholastics. From them comes respect for knowledge, truth, duty etc. Ideally, the student who graduates high school should know Latin and have a proficiency in at least the following:
Homer's Illiad
Euclid's Elements
Plato's Republic, Apology, and Crito
Aristotle's Logic
Plutarch's Lives
Aquinas' Summa Theologica
Ptolemy's Almagest
Kepler
Newton's Principia Mathematica
Gibbon's Decline and fall of the Roman Empire
Smith's The Wealth of Nations

That was like the most barebones curriculum I can think of for one to have a basic education. These authors are literally the basics for Mathematics, Philosophy, Logic, Astronomy, Physics, History, and Civics, yet pretty much every high school graduate in America (and Israel, where I currently live) hasn't actually read a single one of them.

The root of this terrible lack of expectations of students is expressed in this sentiment:

Schools treat you as a prisoner during your time there: similar conditions in the work place such as having to ask to use the bathroom would be considered abuse and illegal. They treat women as sexual objects with their rules regarding clothing and do not maintain a safe environment with allowing terrorist symbols such as the confederate flag. They are willing to risk a students life by not closing school on days where driving conditions are hazardis, especially being a students potentially first time being exposed to deadly conditions. Schools are still deeply embedded in racism from a former time of segregation.

The lack of discipline, the need for 'safe spaces', the increasingly 'sensitive' and fragile student body, are all perpetuated by the schools. Where is the Eton ideal? Work until you drop and then learn some more! That's how you get a proper education; not by being too delicate and overworked to study instead of playing video games! Just imagine the scorn an Eton graduate from the 19th century would have on seeing a 17 year old being 'unable to study' because he needs to play GTA. Society is doing us a disservice by their pathetic expectations of us; as far as I'm concerned they're insulting my intelligence.

[Bull]

The lack of discipline, the need for 'safe spaces', the increasingly 'sensitive' and fragile student body, are all perpetuated by the schools. Where is the Eton ideal? Work until you drop and then learn some more! That's how you get a proper education; not by being too delicate and overworked to study instead of playing video games! Just imagine the scorn an Eton graduate from the 19th century would have on seeing a 17 year old being 'unable to study' because he needs to play GTA. Society is doing us a disservice by their pathetic expectations of us; as far as I'm concerned they're insulting my intelligence.

I agree with this statement!

[Uniquemind]

1. Enforcement of a broad educational standard.

2. Lack of equal funding for school supplies

3. Lack of training for educators regarding learning disabilities

4. The low pay of teachers.

5. Bad or low criteria plus not enough screening for personality qualities desirable in ideal teachers.


6. School boards and teachers being at the mercy of low quality parents who they themselves are biased to the evaluation of their own children. (Parents themselves might not understand issues during parent-teacher meetings because they themselves have trauma or issues from their own schooling days).

7. Kids are smarter than adults regarding technology making rebellion against authority easier.

8. Kids are unmotivated to learn hard things.

9. Technology is distracting or encouraging procrastination.

10. Too much media saturation in society + violence and gang issues in poorer school neighborhoods. Teachers gotta learn choke holds to break up some fights.

11. Lack of year-round schooling.

12. Lack of a good balance between the arts, music, and harder subjects like language, math, and sciences.

13. Subjects are not being taught in accordance to what the brains strengths are in different stages of development.

Foreign language should be started in pre-school, and maintained throughout the school career.


14. School sadly isn't built as a program to make everybody at their educational best. It's about programing people to take the place of the former generation of jobs that their parents worked before to keep society going status quo.

It's a factory.

[Tesserax]

The problem with modern day education is that it's pressure to do certain subjects you may or may not want to do, to qualify, and only qualify, for the opportunity for a higher education.

Now one of the greatest problems with this is that I could make, for example, and amazing surgeon, and amazing doctor, and could save many lives, but because my ability in English class to turn one sentence into a full essay filled with bullshit "analyzing", or because I did not fare as well compared to my classmates in math, I may not have the ability to do that.

The main problem lies with a couple of things:
1. There is too much pressure. We are expected to learn things in the most troublesome moments of our lives, where we are beginning to grow as SOCIAL creatures, and to force it upon us like they do is just too much for most to handle.
2. They test you on a rather narrow spectrum of abilities, rather than the whole spectrum which cuts away the ability to show your worth in your desired profession
3. At this moment in our lives, our mental capability is not yet fully developed, and some people are left lagging behind due to their rate of growth, which can be a huge disadvantage

All in all I think the system needs an overhaul, a change to a more fantasy-like education system that you see in novels or movies often

[Judean Zealot]

My observations appear to be playing themselves out in real time...

[Uniquemind]

The problem with modern day education is that it's pressure to do certain subjects you may or may not want to do, to qualify, and only qualify, for the opportunity for a higher education.

Now one of the greatest problems with this is that I could make, for example, and amazing surgeon, and amazing doctor, and could save many lives, but because my ability in English class to turn one sentence into a full essay filled with bullshit "analyzing", or because I did not fare as well compared to my classmates in math, I may not have the ability to do that.

The main problem lies with a couple of things:
1. There is too much pressure. We are expected to learn things in the most troublesome moments of our lives, where we are beginning to grow as SOCIAL creatures, and to force it upon us like they do is just too much for most to handle.
2. They test you on a rather narrow spectrum of abilities, rather than the whole spectrum which cuts away the ability to show your worth in your desired profession
3. At this moment in our lives, our mental capability is not yet fully developed, and some people are left lagging behind due to their rate of growth, which can be a huge disadvantage

All in all I think the system needs an overhaul, a change to a more fantasy-like education system that you see in novels or movies often

No I have to disagree with this.

Especially with the example of a surgeon's career.

Maybe artists like musicians and painters can get by without learning how to read.

But doctors certainly require that skill and ability to read & write, in fact probably should be fluent in multiple languages so as to be able to communicate with as many patients and their families and friends as possible to accurately diagnosis a ailment get a proper treatment.
They would also need the skill of reading to analyze medical trends, symptoms, and understand chemistry and biology so they know what drugs to give or are already being used in a patient.



While I stand by my original comment list of problems with education, I also agree with Etzelnik general point of view that the classics are lost.

There is also a drive in students to be their absolute best intellectually that is a major problem.

Many teens are distracted by socialization, sex, romance, that they forget life is about chasing perfection of body, spirit, and mind.


They are passing classes to "get by" but are not pursuing mastery.

[phuckphace]

school staff should be allowed to beat kids' asses with switches like back in the day. kids are snotty little shits because they know they can screw around and nothing serious will happen

maybe also segregate the boys from the girls in separate facilities since schools these days are basically just orgy meetups (open every other locker and handfuls of condom wrappers will tumble out)

I just think it's funny how surprisingly little we actually learn after all this "progress" and gorillions of dollars spent. I should've learned Greek back when I was a little younger when it was easier :(

[Judean Zealot]

school staff should be allowed to beat kids' asses with switches like back in the day. kids are snotty little shits because they know they can screw around and nothing serious will happen

maybe also segregate the boys from the girls in separate facilities since schools these days are basically just orgy meetups (open every other locker and handfuls of condom wrappers will tumble out)

I just think it's funny how surprisingly little we actually learn after all this "progress" and gorillions of dollars spent. I should've learned Greek back when I was a little younger when it was easier :(

I think we're kindred spirits.

Edit: Greek would be very hard to learn now, but Latin is within grasp if you have a generally good grasp on language.

[Stronk Serb]

I was reading a PDF of an old book for schoolboys about the extinct faunae of Great Britain, originally published in the 1870s. one thing that always jumps out at you reading old literature for teens is how highbrow the language and level of discourse was in those days - the author of the book would frequently cite old Greek, Roman and medieval writers in the original Latin & Greek with no English translation given. current number of 15 year old American students in 2015 able to read a word of those languages = zero (but they can KS you in LoL until you ragequit)

Send me some of the Latin parts via PM, maybe I can translste them :P
It's sad to see a lot of teens not trying to absorb the knowledge to which they have access. I used the internet for a crap ton of projects I volunteered for, but a lot of teens are too lazy to do it.

[Uniquemind]

school staff should be allowed to beat kids' asses with switches like back in the day. kids are snotty little shits because they know they can screw around and nothing serious will happen

maybe also segregate the boys from the girls in separate facilities since schools these days are basically just orgy meetups (open every other locker and handfuls of condom wrappers will tumble out)

I just think it's funny how surprisingly little we actually learn after all this "progress" and gorillions of dollars spent. I should've learned Greek back when I was a little younger when it was easier :(

Well Greece and Rome had wild parties too...so. Let's acknowledge there's a non-sequitur there.

[Judean Zealot]

Well Greece and Rome had wild parties too...so. Let's acknowledge there's a non-sequitur there.

Wild parties is one thing. In school is another. I can't claim familiarity with the subject, but I'm pretty sure most educators consider co-ed classrooms to be a negative influence on the quality of education.

[Tesserax]

No I have to disagree with this.

Especially with the example of a surgeon's career.

Maybe artists like musicians and painters can get by without learning how to read.

But doctors certainly require that skill and ability to read & write, in fact probably should be fluent in multiple languages so as to be able to communicate with as many patients and their families and friends as possible to accurately diagnosis a ailment get a proper treatment.
They would also need the skill of reading to analyze medical trends, symptoms, and understand chemistry and biology so they know what drugs to give or are already being used in a patient.



While I stand by my original comment list of problems with education, I also agree with Etzelnik general point of view that the classics are lost.

There is also a drive in students to be their absolute best intellectually that is a major problem.

Many teens are distracted by socialization, sex, romance, that they forget life is about chasing perfection of body, spirit, and mind.


They are passing classes to "get by" but are not pursuing mastery.

I was just using examples. I didn't sum up my point very well, and what I essentially meant was:

Our education system is too generalized, and does not have enough focus on what each individual student wants to do. In Germany they have different types of high-schools that give different courses based on what you want to do, for example. I think that they should have a more flexible course, where students can pick their desired career and focus on the essential topics for it, rather than do well in 2 prerequisites and then do good enough in 4 other random subjects that don't necessarily have anything to do with my chosen career in order to obtain a high enough ranking to begin working towards my goal.

So essentially, there needs to be more specialization within high-school, rather than generalization to compare us all, when our skills are not necessarily all defined within the generalization. Sort of, I'm bad at explaining

[Miserabilia]

Having denationalized schools is the absolute worse for an educational system. I think when people complain about education in the USA, almost all of their problems come from the fact that school's don't have any kind of standard norm and aren't from the state, so the only standard the school has to keep up to is whatever it should to get more money.

[Zenos]

The sole problem is that the politicians want to be the educators,and started in the 90's to fix a educational system that was not broken.

Politicans are in fact molding a state run educational system,that does not work

[phuckphace]

Well Greece and Rome had wild parties too...so. Let's acknowledge there's a non-sequitur there.

in this moment I am euphoric, not because of any fallacious slippery-slope non sequitur counterarguments but because I am enlightened by my own thesaurus

I neither care about parties nor do I believe them to be the doom of our civilization. I care about students whoring around while they're supposed to be in school studying. "well Greece and Rome did this that and the other thing" I'd say your post is the non-sequitur here buddy, seriously where tf did that even come from? :lol3:

[Jean Poutine]

I have no real opinion on the subject due to ignorance, but I think you would find this book interesting, to say the least.

http://mhkeehn.tripod.com/ughoae.pdf

[liptonlee]

I see that everyone here somehow yearns for an educational system that is less restrictive, monotonous and more people-oriented. But is there any country/society's edu system that can prove these idealisations do make a change for the better?

[Microcosm]

I see that everyone here somehow yearns for an educational system that is less restrictive, monotonous and more people-oriented. But is there any country/society's edu system that can prove these idealisations do make a change for the better?

There absolutely is. If the country in question is smart about it, they really could make change for the better and positively influence many lives.

[HUSTLEMAN]

I made a post a few years ago similar to this question. Basically it was me explaining the ideal educational system which entailed of fully allowing the students to choose their career paths and choosing the courses necessary for their goals which eliminates the need for students stressing over work they have no interest in.

The problem with our educational system is that its all about the money and the people in charge only sees us as a mere statistic, dollar signs and not as individuals with our own individual talents and abilities so the continue to test us, wanting us to fail so they can come in and "fix" the mess they intentionally created by making it worse. For example, in my own school district, we adopted the GMAS testing standards and because it was in its first year, the tests we took basically all year long were nothing but a statistic for the schools to chart their pieces of data and rank each school in the district and to see where we all stand. Now I'm an IB student and we have our own curriculum and standards that are way superior to Georgia standards so it was a hindrance to what we actually needed to learn but to the students not in IB, they felt that they needed to pass this or they fail and not graduate on time, adding on their stress. and the most disheartening thing about is that most of the students were not even aware that the scores they would make on these tests would have no impact on their grades until after the fact.

Another problem is that we are spoon fed everything to the point where we can't do anything ourselves when the teachers leave us to do it by ourselves especially since the students in my class for example were always told they were the best. Its disheartening but the consequences of our sheltered education system

[simplired]

It's not about learning anymore; it's about passing.

[cystel]

Hi Simplired, I think you are right that our educational system only depends on about passing or getting certificate that is not bright for future as I think but many students are not aware of this expect some intellectual students.However I think it will be the best when it depends on learning.Thank you

[phuckphace]

I have no real opinion on the subject due to ignorance, but I think you would find this book interesting, to say the least.

http://mhkeehn.tripod.com/ughoae.pdf

opened pdf, read "public schools suck because they're public, the free market will fix it", closed pdf.

[Miserabilia]

What I don't like about education is how it's right-wrong, and not personal at all while learning is a very personal experience.

[eric2001]

All that's wrong can be summed up in ONE word:

HOMEWORK