The Lives we Lead are Predetermined

[Syzygy]

I was originally going to post this in Depression and Grief section, but I feel it would be better suited here. Maybe because knowing the truth of it all doesn't make me depressed anymore? More of a melancholic apathy, no doubt the result of coming to terms with something so ironclad.

Everything we do, the type of lives we live, the food we eat, the coveted social acceptance we get (or get denied of) is all determined before we are even born. In the eyes of our fellow human beings we are each judged on things completely out of our control. Were you born in a rich, upper-class family living in a quiet neighborhood? Or born into a family of nine making just enough to scrape by in an impoverished ghetto? These are out of our control, yet our peers and associates will be quick to judge our worth as a human being by them. Our DNA is another thing we had no choice of, yet controls nearly everything about us and the quality of our lives.

With this knowledge in hand, what's the point of living for the bottom ten percent? The boy who was born with fetal alcohol syndrome and doesn't know where his next meal will come from or the girl who works in a Nike factory makes shoes for cents will never see the Pyramids of Egypt, or travel through Europe like the child of an extremely successful stock broker or movie star has already done before he's even turned double digits.

Self improvement can only go so far. I've worked hard in the gym to improve my body, have used skincare products, tried to improve my wardrobe, have worked to overcome my introversion, made plans to have a successful career, and done various other tasks all in the hopes and dreams of increased female attention and societal acceptance. Many are embarassed to admit that, but those are the most fundamental two driving forces of human nature, after eating and sleeping.

The pain behind self improvement is rarely talked about. Hundreds of hard-working hours put into the gym, education, and career all to get what many others have done with zero effort. I can work hard to have a successful career and make a modest salary, but that's nothing compared to the people born into rich families with connections that will land them jobs on Wall St. that make my entire net worth in a year, with less than half the effort I put in. They will lead lives of extreme happiness and wealth, and no matter what you or I do we will never experience the same joys of life. Our fates and how kind life is to us was already determined.

I can spend my hard-earned money on a gym membership, exercise at maximum intensity, and follow a strict diet, but there are people out there with naturally higher Testosterone levels than me that can do plyometrics in their cellar with barely any intensity, and eat a diet of fast food, and still have a physique that rivals my own, but with way less effort.

Both of those examples are things that are out of my control, yet my life will be severely different than them no matter how much effort and hard work I put in. Dreams and aspirations of becoming the top 1% are a joke for the majority of people, unless they are already in the 90th percentile. Similarly, people born starving into third world nations will never experience the joyful youth of many first world children who have no worries or responsibilities.

It's a cruel system where you die how you live, and how you live is completely out of your hands. Is a member of the bottom ten percent of society committing suicide the 21st century way of natural selection to weed out the genetically inferior? Instead of having kings or queens throw them off cliffs when they are babies they are left to be tortured by life until they cannot take it anymore and end it themselves? Life is a malign design where strength (in genetic material and wealth, which is in part determined by genetic material) is rewarded and weakness is punished and bound to repeat the same cycle for generations.

Sorry if any of this doesn't make sense, I was very tired when I wrote this.

[Fleek]

Two Things:
You can't control what happens to you, but you can choose what you do in response.

You Choose your path, seeing yourself fail before it happens, gives enough time for it TO happen.

[Syzygy]

Two Things:
You can't control what happens to you, but you can choose what you do in response.

You Choose your path, seeing yourself fail before it happens, gives enough time for it TO happen.

Are you familiar with determinism? It's a philosophical statement that lines up quite similarly with my views above. How we choose to respond to any event is actually out of our control and determined by things we have no choice over. I do agree you can choose your path so some extent, but certain paths are laid open to you at birth, and those are the ones you are stuck with your whole life. It's a meaningless struggle to try and change nature's course for us.

It makes me feel guilty to even be in the top fifty percent, knowing what it's like trying to improve myself now, what would it be like for those below me trying to improve themselves? They will have a much harder time, and go through hardships unknown to most of the world. In fact most of the world would not even spare the time to listen to them, just based solely on what the world's population views as inherent genetic (DNA) and liquid (Monetary) worth. What do most people see beggars as? How many people would listen to the story of an old beggar?

Personality is a joke as well. So called personality traits are either postive or negatively charged depending solely on how the observer percieves the genetic worth of another human being. The difference between outgoing and annoying is the percieved worth of the person in question. It's sick how most people don't realize this or realize it and refuse to acknowledge it. A human with high worth does whatever they want and lets people project positive qualites onto them, whereas a human with low worth can work on being bright, happy, and outgoing and just be viewed as a nuisance, or creepy by their peers - just because of how they subconsciously think that person is worth less than them. Knowing this, what's the point of that person to even try anymore, understanding they will be forever shunned no matter how hard they try?

[Microcosm]

I think it's important to realize that it is at no fault of the rich or upper-class individual as to placing blame on the suffering of the lower class individual. Some make the amateur mistake of blaming problems which the lower class faces on the rich people, which isn't always or necessarily true. Of course, I don't think you're doing that in this post at all, but I'd like to state it for the purpose of later discussion on this topic if it arises.

This is a common example of the everyday class struggles of human nature and society. This class struggle has been studied, examined, and experimented with for thousands of years since conception of civilization. As far as I can see, it is never going away and is merely integral to human nature. Men are constantly experiencing issues which are brought about by and revolve entirely around one thing: Freedom. Let's examine that. I almost said money, but that would be incorrect to some degree. Freedom may be influenced by many things: social standing, capital, law, etc. Our freedom is merely situational to our personal and individual existence, i.e. a rich person has more freedom than a poor person to do the things they enjoy or are inclined to do.

Now, here is the advantage to the situation of the poor man who works his way up from the bottom. The poor man who becomes rich through hard work and labor is much more accustomed to the morality and responsibility that comes with this new sense of freedom whereas one who does nothing to attain such a position will haphazardly spend with no sense of morality because he has experienced nothing less than that which he is presently experiencing.

Thus, you are presented with an optimal situation. You are presented with the opportunity to live a life of morality and honor that comes with the true freedom level of high social standard and the attraction of the opposite sex. However, you must labor to obtain this. You'll find that you will have a greater respect for women. You'll find that you have a lesser respect for the value and influence of money(as it may very well be true that it is the "root of all evil").

[Syzygy]

I think it's important to realize that it is at no fault of the rich or upper-class individual as to placing blame on the suffering of the lower class individual. Some make the amateur mistake of blaming problems which the lower class faces on the rich people, which isn't always or necessarily true. Of course, I don't think you're doing that in this post at all, but I'd like to state it for the purpose of later discussion on this topic if it arises.

This is a common example of the everyday class struggles of human nature and society. This class struggle has been studied, examined, and experimented with for thousands of years since conception of civilization. As far as I can see, it is never going away and is merely integral to human nature. Men are constantly experiencing issues which are brought about by and revolve entirely around one thing: Freedom. Let's examine that. I almost said money, but that would be incorrect to some degree. Freedom may be influenced by many things: social standing, capital, law, etc. Our freedom is merely situational to our personal and individual existence, i.e. a rich person has more freedom than a poor person to do the things they enjoy or are inclined to do.

Now, here is the advantage to the situation of the poor man who works his way up from the bottom. The poor man who becomes rich through hard work and labor is much more accustomed to the morality and responsibility that comes with this new sense of freedom whereas one who does nothing to attain such a position will haphazardly spend with no sense of morality because he has experienced nothing less than that which he is presently experiencing.

Thus, you are presented with an optimal situation. You are presented with the opportunity to live a life of morality and honor that comes with the true freedom level of high social standard and the attraction of the opposite sex. However, you must labor to obtain this. You'll find that you will have a greater respect for women. You'll find that you have a lesser respect for the value and influence of money(as it may very well be true that it is the "root of all evil").

I don't agree that a poor person working their way to the one percent has any advantage over being in the one percent from birth. One reason being that it's just a fairy tale for most people. Like telling a child they can be the President. Considering both you and me are accessing the internet and posting on this forum I'd make the assumption that we're both fairly well off. I'm willing to bet we have many similar pathways available to us. If we wanted to pursue monetary gains we have the oppurtunity to become doctors or engineers, but the chances of either of us becoming a Fortune 500 CEO or billionaire investor are slim to nothing.

Another reason is that the slim to nothing chance to earn that normally unobtainable amount of money is still greater than the chance to enter the ranks of the genetically blessed, who were also given these gifts at birth. People with strong inherent genes are adored and worshipped by everyone, this is why jocks and cheerleaders are popular, their genetic material appears to give them more worth as a human being. People with this genetic material are also very influential, allowing them to rise to positions of power very easily (this is known as the halo effect). If you don't have this DNA, there isn't anything you can do, no matter how hard you try and improve yourself. DNA is one of the few things that's set in stone.

Plastic surgery is experimental and has a myriad of possible complications. There is nothing you can do to broaden the shoulders of a guy or widen the hips of a girl. If you want to increase your height, the only thing possible is an expensive leg-lengthening surgery that will most likely leave you in a wheel chair in your twilight years. Fillers added to the face to imitate well-developed facial bones tend to look fake and give an unnerving effect to observers. In this sense, the poor man cannot become the rich man. You can't cheat nature. There are no fruits of his labor, and this sad tale repeats itself in people all over the globe.

[Microcosm]

I don't agree that a poor person working their way to the one percent has any advantage over being in the one percent from birth. One reason being that it's just a fairy tale for most people. Like telling a child they can be the President. Considering both you and me are accessing the internet and posting on this forum I'd make the assumption that we're both fairly well off. I'm willing to bet we have many similar pathways available to us. If we wanted to pursue monetary gains we have the oppurtunity to become doctors or engineers, but the chances of either of us becoming a Fortune 500 CEO or billionaire investor are slim to nothing.

Another reason is that the slim to nothing chance to earn that normally unobtainable amount of money is still greater than the chance to enter the ranks of the genetically blessed, who were also given these gifts at birth. People with strong inherent genes are adored and worshipped by everyone, this is why jocks and cheerleaders are popular, their genetic material appears to give them more worth as a human being. People with this genetic material are also very influential, allowing them to rise to positions of power very easily (this is known as the halo effect). If you don't have this DNA, there isn't anything you can do, no matter how hard you try and improve yourself. DNA is one of the few things that's set in stone.

Plastic surgery is experimental and has a myriad of possible complications. There is nothing you can do to broaden the shoulders of a guy or widen the hips of a girl. If you want to increase your height, the only thing possible is an expensive leg-lengthening surgery that will most likely leave you in a wheel chair in your twilight years. Fillers added to the face to imitate well-developed facial bones tend to look fake and give an unnerving effect to observers. In this sense, the poor man cannot become the rich man. You can't cheat nature. There are no fruits of his labor, and this sad tale repeats itself in people all over the globe.

The idea of equal opportunity has spread rapidly and continues to spread across the world. Especially in America, anyone has the ability to reach some level of power through free public education.

[DriveAlive]

The idea of equal opportunity has spread rapidly and continues to spread across the world. Especially in America, anyone has the ability to reach some level of power through free public education.

I agree with this to an extent. I believe that based on the social class and the genes you were born with, you can be limited in your success when compared to someone else. But I also think that it is important to support the idea of equal oppourtunity and give people the chance to be successful. With that said, I don't see the point in complaining about how some people are genetically or socially better off from birth. Thats just life. Everyone thinks that all liberals believe that everyone should be given equal everything in life. This is not true at all. I believe that everyone should be given fairness in life. The truth is, some people will be poor and less successful than others. While everyone should be treated fairly and allowed the opportunity to have some success and live above poverty, they do not need to get equal salary and power of those who are more successful. While doing so would be equal, it would not be fair.

[Syzygy]

The idea of equal opportunity has spread rapidly and continues to spread across the world. Especially in America, anyone has the ability to reach some level of power through free public education.

You may be right about equal oppurtunity becoming more widespread, but how many kids from the inner city are planning on attending an Ivy League university? When their only influences are older siblings involved in street gangs their path is nearly set in stone and set up for them to follow in the footsteps of the people before them. Of course there probably are many kids who are only children and hope nothing more than to focus on a career path, who haven't been swayed or influenced by organized crime. When both of those kids are thirty their outcomes will most likely be substantially different. And it's all because of things out of their control. Maybe now you begin to see how most choices we make are inconsequential, and it's impossible to change the outcome fate has made for us.


I agree with this to an extent. I believe that based on the social class and the genes you were born with, you can be limited in your success when compared to someone else. But I also think that it is important to support the idea of equal oppourtunity and give people the chance to be successful. With that said, I don't see the point in complaining about how some people are genetically or socially better off from birth. Thats just life. Everyone thinks that all liberals believe that everyone should be given equal everything in life. This is not true at all. I believe that everyone should be given fairness in life. The truth is, some people will be poor and less successful than others. While everyone should be treated fairly and allowed the opportunity to have some success and live above poverty, they do not need to get equal salary and power of those who are more successful. While doing so would be equal, it would not be fair.

You're correct, there is no point complaining about the fairness of life when it is an unchangeable fact. Many things are out of our control. But don't mistake my sentiment for childish belly-aching. Giving people the chance to be successful is really only minor help in the long run, since self improvement is limited to what you start with like a sculptor would be limited by the quality of his clay. An argument could be made that people would only take the chance to be successful if fate has made them self-driven, where they would try and find a path to success regardless of people helping them or not.

[Karkat]

I disagree with almost all of this. Your circumstances are predetermined; your life isn't. We are in an age that children of the slums become idolized celebrities and own houses the size of an apartment building. Mansions.

We live in a time where celebrities that were once so much in the public eye can become obscure, and lose their wealth to drugs and gambling

The rich go bankrupt, the poor win the lottery, the poor go bankrupt, the rich get more money

Sure, the odds aren't great, but they do increase as the chance of visibility increases. Do you think Shane Dawson would've had a chance to be an author and movie star before the internet? Would Lindsey Stirling have been successful? Would Carrie Underwood be known without American idol?

As time goes on, there becomes more opportunities. Just look at the names we know solely due to innovations in technology.
Steve Jobs
Bill Gates

Philosophy is flawed because nothing is static; life is dynamic, and everything is constantly evolving. You can't stick a tied-and-true rule to unexplored territory and expect it to work.

[Typhlosion]

Yaaayy determinism yaayy survival of the fittest?

What I dislike in this thread is the correlation of success with material gain. Do you need to be a billionaire, and do you even want to be one?

[DriveAlive]

Yaaayy determinism yaayy survival of the fittest?

What I dislike in this thread is the correlation of success with material gain. Do you need to be a billionaire, and do you even want to be one?

First, no one needs to be a billionaire, but I would certainly want ot be one. Second, if you work in business in a capitalist country, then your success is correlated with your material gain.

[Typhlosion]

First, no one needs to be a billionaire, but I would certainly want ot be one. Second, if you work in business in a capitalist country, then your success is correlated with your material gain.
Really? I can only imagine being a billionaire an incredible amount of work and stress to maintain (not to mention earn!) incredibly large amounts of money that you wouldn't even be able to spend most of. If not already unhealthily spoiling yourself.

Also, what can be defined as success? Why do we have so many communities that do not focus their success on material gain, but rather spiritual, emotional, or curtural upkeep? Can financial success buy any of that?

[DriveAlive]

Really? I can only imagine being a billionaire an incredible amount of work and stress to maintain (not to mention earn!) incredibly large amounts of money that you wouldn't even be able to spend most of. If not already unhealthily spoiling yourself.

Also, what can be defined as success? Why do we have so many communities that do not focus their success on material gain, but rather spiritual, emotional, or curtural upkeep? Can financial success buy any of that?
The point of being a billionaire is not spending the money on yourself, but rather pursuing the creation of new technology and innovations, as well as aiding the less fortunate. I also specifically pointed out that monetary gain is only a measure of success if you work in business of a capitalist society. I believe that spiritual, emotional, cultural, etc. success is equally important in its place, but is not the measure in business success. I do believe that many successful businessmen do get emotional benefits from their success. Just look at Warren Buffett or Sir Richard Branson.

[Microcosm]

TWPR :arrow2: ROTW

Turning into a debate.

[Syzygy]

I disagree with almost all of this. Your circumstances are predetermined; your life isn't. We are in an age that children of the slums become idolized celebrities and own houses the size of an apartment building. Mansions.

We live in a time where celebrities that were once so much in the public eye can become obscure, and lose their wealth to drugs and gambling

The rich go bankrupt, the poor win the lottery, the poor go bankrupt, the rich get more money

Sure, the odds aren't great, but they do increase as the chance of visibility increases. Do you think Shane Dawson would've had a chance to be an author and movie star before the internet? Would Lindsey Stirling have been successful? Would Carrie Underwood be known without American idol?

As time goes on, there becomes more opportunities. Just look at the names we know solely due to innovations in technology.
Steve Jobs
Bill Gates

Philosophy is flawed because nothing is static; life is dynamic, and everything is constantly evolving. You can't stick a tied-and-true rule to unexplored territory and expect it to work.

Your circumstances are predetermined and your life is played out according to those circumstances. For some reason you believe these flukes of nature that arose out of a one in a million chance invalidate what I'm saying. Your spot in the universe and rung on the ladder is determined at (or even before) birth. There's no point to try and even envision a life where we live like Steve Jobs or Channing Tatum, it's like spending my salary trying to win the lottery instead of investing or improving within my bounds. The chance has already passed, and it's unchangeable. I don't believe I'm understanding your post fully, what is your point, technology gives us more oppurtunities to break away from the lives we've been confined to? The chances are still miniscule and for the 99% of us we'll never see it happen.

I didn't want this to turn into a debate, but I appreciate the opposing viewpoints being presented. One thing still nobody has really cared to talk about is how greatly our genes influence our lives. I'm not surprised, it's the hardest thing to accept in life, that no matter how hard you try you are limited by something so permenant. Human eyes are trained from birth to subconsciously access the strength of another humans genes and in an instant compute the percieved worth of said human. When you see an attractive member of the opposite sex (or same sex if you're gay) you instantly know if they are attractive. Whether you know it or not, the same thing happens when you see someone of the same sex. You can judge a person's clout by the DNA they carry in their cells. There is no changing how people percieve you and your genes subconsciously, and how those subconscious thoughts influence their conscious opinions of you. Men can become muscular, but it won't change narrow clavicles or short stature. Women commonly also work on their fitness, but doing squats won't give them the same ass as a woman with wider hips. Women actually have a way to somewhat cheat nature regarding facial development, and that is makeup. Trimming of the eyebrows can create the illusion of a higher arch, and contouring the face can create the illusion of strong cheekbones and hollow cheeks. Men don't really have a temporary solution like that. Plastic surgery is always available as a permenant alternative, but like I mentioned before it is somewhat unpredictable.

Yaaayy determinism yaayy survival of the fittest?

What I dislike in this thread is the correlation of success with material gain. Do you need to be a billionaire, and do you even want to be one?
Humanity has correlated success with material gain. "Money can't buy happiness" is only said by the poor, as the rich know the great boons wealth has afforded them. Wealth and status has been lusted at by all humans since the dawn of our existence.

[Miserabilia]

Though I can not prove free will does *not* exist, there is no evidence that it does and we can't think of any reason why it would exist anymore than fairtyles and unicorns.

[Jaffe]

Although you have a lot of valid points, I am not sure I can agree with you completely. Genetics does play a large role in who we are and who we become. Just as much, personality (which I suppose can be modified, but it would not be easy) is a factor, because personality determines how we react to situations that come at us. And I don't really believe that personality is genetic, since every family, every lineage, every race, all have members that cover the entire broad spectrum of personalities.

To your points:
In the eyes of our fellow human beings we are each judged on things completely out of our control.
That is true. People are mean to each other, as are most animals. Crows kill other crows if they are not the perfect irridescent black that crows apparently believe is their correct color. Fish kill or harass fish that are blinded in one eye. Humans judge and hurt others for the same kinds of issues, issues that the individual cannot control, whether genetic or from some other source.

I can work hard to have a successful career and make a modest salary, but that's nothing compared to the people born into rich families with connections that will land them jobs on Wall St. that make my entire net worth in a year, with less than half the effort I put in. They will lead lives of extreme happiness and wealth,
Disagree..... Part of this is true, you will never have the same opportunities that someone born into wealth will have. But in my view, "happiness and wealth" as you state it, should not be combined into one idea. They are very separate and different things. I know people with money, and people with power. And I don't think they are any happier than I am, even though they are adults and have put much effort into getting what they have. In fact, they put so much time and energy into maintaining their wealth or their power, they probably don't have time to be happy.

I can spend my hard-earned money on a gym membership, exercise at maximum intensity, and follow a strict diet, but there are people out there with naturally higher Testosterone levels than me that can do plyometrics in their cellar with barely any intensity, and eat a diet of fast food, and still have a physique that rivals my own, but with way less effort.
True. If that is what is important to you, it might require lots of effort. It's also possible that the guy with the naturally athletic physique is unhappy with who he is. And it is fact (as I can say from my own life) that people without an athletic physique can also be perfectly happy with their bodies as they are. You are talking here about something you WANT, not need, and I am, again, not in total agreement that having what we want makes us happy.

But you are right in your point, that your life would be much different if those things that you want were given to you rather than requiring effort to obtain them. For good or bad, who knows? I think the total issue here is unrelated to being happy, or even finding pleasure in life. It's related to satisfying your wants, whatever they are. How we live might be determined by our wants, or it might be determined by the uncontrollable situations you mention, or it might be determined by our beliefs (although many people confuse beliefs and wants).

Cool post, thanks for throwing this out there.

[ClaraWho]

Riches, the mansions, worshiped by society and genetically blessed; yet with a bankrupt heart, so bereft of hapiness.

There's a reason so many songs are written on this subject matter, by talented, genetically gifted, famous singers. Without reciprocated true love, without finding your soulmate to share this hard life with - we are lost. No amount of religion, money, genes or fame will fill that space.

That is why the bottom 10% shouldn't kill themselves as you sickly suggested. Life isn't fair in every other sense, but we are all afforded the most valuable of opportunity's. To pursue true love is the noblist quest.

Keep the one I love safe and happy, and it doesn't matter where I am, or how much hardship I have to endure - that is all that matters in the end.

Before you mention Halo Effect, that only applies to those you don't intimately know (read into cognitive dissonance), and genetics only play a factor in 'initial interpersonal attraction'. Personality types are self-crafted, not genetically determined. Stop blaming everything else for your own insecurities and work on treating yourself with gentle compassion and kindness. This in turn will make you more kind to others (Look into Mindfulness).

~ Clara (very much in love)

[Syzygy]

Riches, the mansions, worshiped by society and genetically blessed; yet with a bankrupt heart, so bereft of hapiness.

There's a reason so many songs are written on this subject matter, by talented, genetically gifted, famous singers. Without reciprocated true love, without finding your soulmate to share this hard life with - we are lost. No amount of religion, money, genes or fame will fill that space.

That is why the bottom 10% shouldn't kill themselves as you sickly suggested. Life isn't fair in every other sense, but we are all afforded the most valuable of opportunity's. To pursue true love is the noblist quest.

Keep the one I love safe and happy, and it doesn't matter where I am, or how much hardship I have to endure - that is all that matters in the end.

Before you mention Halo Effect, that only applies to those you don't intimately know (read into cognitive dissonance), and genetics only play a factor in 'initial interpersonal attraction'. Personality types are self-crafted, not genetically determined. Stop blaming everything else for your own insecurities and work on treating yourself with gentle compassion and kindness. This in turn will make you more kind to others (Look into Mindfulness).

~ Clara (very much in love)

It bugs me that you would put words in my mouth and make me out to be some advocate of suicide to put yourself on the moral high ground. I did not suggest anyone should kill themselves. The rest of your post sounds like your naivete is speaking, similar to a person born with rich parents and a host of connections telling a minimum wage worker from the slums it's not hard to find a well-paying job. I actually believe this strongly due to the fact you think your personality is self-crafted. That is something I hear very frequently that I believe is actually complete misconception. Your personality is made up of two things, genes (which for some reason you don't believe, yet a large portion of our brain chemistry is derived from genes, no one chooses to be bipolar, schizophrenic, or socially anxious), and social feedback. Those with weak genes will be shunned and become loners, those with strong genes worshipped. Strong gened-people will become very confident due to constantly getting positive social feedback as a result of the halo effect. Speaking of that I'm not sure what would lead you to believe it only applies to strangers. I wrote a lot about personality in one of my previous posts and I think you should read it.

And the sad reality that nobody will accept is that contrary to what you stated, finding true love isn't afforded to everyone, especially not the bottom of the barrel. I suggest looking up burn victims or people born with horrific disfigurations. When most people see these poor souls they will feel repulsed, disgusted, and uncomfortable. True love is made more an impossibility for them than winning the lottery. Many ugly people are loners or outcasts (they didn't choose that personality - shocker I know) because very commonly they are dehumanized by their peers to the point where they don't empathise with said outcast. This brings out bullying even in non-aggressive people, due to the fact they don't see their acts as particularly wrong. For a sentient, intelligent being like a human to suffer a fate like this is more than just wrong, it's inhumane.

This thread wasn't about blaming anyone or thing for my insecurities, but I can see how you got confused when I used examples including myself. I made this thread not even intending debate, I just wanted to share my thoughts and acknowledge something many people aren't aware of.

[Bleid]

Are you familiar with determinism?
Yes.

It's a philosophical statement that lines up quite similarly with my views above.

Determinism is not a statement, exactly - it is a doctrine of belief.
Within that belief, there is still a distinction made between some event(s) being predetermined and the existence of Free Will and individual capability, which is the primary concern of determinism, as well as indeterminism and compatibalism.

In addition, what you describe is not in line with determinism. It is in line with fatalism, which is distinct from determinism.

I also find it curious that you sign your posts with a quote from Plato regarding the lack of importance in human affairs, but seem very intent on contradicting that exact quote and placing an overly high importance on those human affairs.

[Judean Zealot]

Are you familiar with determinism?Yes, and as far as I'm concerned it's absolute shit in terms of philosophy. It is both theologically and philosophically unnecessary.

Before moving on, however, it is important to clarify on what grounds you're basing your determinist philosophy on, a fatalistic theology or more of a causal determinism?

[Silicate Wielder]

I don't necessarily see a ground foundation for this, sotospeak, there is no sign that i'm picking up on that reads "The only part of the truth that exists" I'm in a low-class family, barely making it by each month, hell my state will ship you off to a fema camp if they find out your homeless! (According to some questionable sources) And yet, I've been able to make connections with people who can help me get a stable job. Nobody is a gifted individual, and those who are claimed to be merely have had the motivation to do so, or have spent countless hours in whatever their interest is. Heard of the fourteen year-old who is a programming prodigee? Guess what, he got there through hard work, and learns part time at a college to further his skills. the kid who built the world's first fusion reactor? Got started reading a book at an early age and furthered his knowledge to make his goal come true. The guy who discovered gravity? An apple merely fell on his head and he took an interest in it.

I know a guy with asbergers who managed to make connections with someone and is now working with companies on websites, while it may seem someone is gifted, they're merely dedicated to what they're interested in.

[Human]

I believe that you can do almost anything you want with your life, but it's down to you. I think if you work hard enough, you can make as much money as you want, be as successful as you want. Unfortunately I and many others don't have the motivation to push ourselves to become successful.
I could have ensured myself a successful career in the future by revising all year for my A levels and getting straight A*s, but I didn't, because I wasn't motivated to really

that's just my opinion

[Karkat]

Your circumstances are predetermined and your life is played out according to those circumstances. For some reason you believe these flukes of nature that arose out of a one in a million chance invalidate what I'm saying. Your spot in the universe and rung on the ladder is determined at (or even before) birth. There's no point to try and even envision a life where we live like Steve Jobs or Channing Tatum, it's like spending my salary trying to win the lottery instead of investing or improving within my bounds. The chance has already passed, and it's unchangeable. I don't believe I'm understanding your post fully, what is your point, technology gives us more oppurtunities to break away from the lives we've been confined to? The chances are still miniscule and for the 99% of us we'll never see it happen.

I didn't want this to turn into a debate, but I appreciate the opposing viewpoints being presented. One thing still nobody has really cared to talk about is how greatly our genes influence our lives. I'm not surprised, it's the hardest thing to accept in life, that no matter how hard you try you are limited by something so permenant. Human eyes are trained from birth to subconsciously access the strength of another humans genes and in an instant compute the percieved worth of said human. When you see an attractive member of the opposite sex (or same sex if you're gay) you instantly know if they are attractive. Whether you know it or not, the same thing happens when you see someone of the same sex. You can judge a person's clout by the DNA they carry in their cells. There is no changing how people percieve you and your genes subconsciously, and how those subconscious thoughts influence their conscious opinions of you. Men can become muscular, but it won't change narrow clavicles or short stature. Women commonly also work on their fitness, but doing squats won't give them the same ass as a woman with wider hips. Women actually have a way to somewhat cheat nature regarding facial development, and that is makeup. Trimming of the eyebrows can create the illusion of a higher arch, and contouring the face can create the illusion of strong cheekbones and hollow cheeks. Men don't really have a temporary solution like that. Plastic surgery is always available as a permenant alternative, but like I mentioned before it is somewhat unpredictable.


Humanity has correlated success with material gain. "Money can't buy happiness" is only said by the poor, as the rich know the great boons wealth has afforded them. Wealth and status has been lusted at by all humans since the dawn of our existence.

And I still disagree. This is my opinion. You can continue to have your opinion idgaf.
I may be a nihilist, but even I feel there is some amount of purpose we can give to ourselves. Predestination makes us all useless, and life completely meaningless. It takes away reason for anything to even exist.

[Microcosm]

And I still disagree. This is my opinion. You can continue to have your opinion idgaf.
I may be a nihilist, but even I feel there is some amount of purpose we can give to ourselves. Predestination makes us all useless, and life completely meaningless. It takes away reason for anything to even exist.

It kind of depends on your definition of "meaning" or "purpose." For some, the purpose is to conquer the sciences and maybe traverse to the deepest ends of the Universe. To some, we have no end goal. We will all be extinguished one day and that is what they focus on.

However, our purpose is not an objective truth. In other words, there is no definite purpose that we have. It depends on your opinion of what the purpose of life is, and that is subject to your personal opinion.

"And my happiness needs no higher aim to vindicate it. My happiness is not the means to any end. It is the end. It is its own goal. It is its own purpose. (11.8)" -Ayn Rand(from her novel Anthem)

[Miserabilia]

And I still disagree. This is my opinion. You can continue to have your opinion idgaf.
I may be a nihilist, but even I feel there is some amount of purpose we can give to ourselves. Predestination makes us all useless, and life completely meaningless. It takes away reason for anything to even exist.

You can still give purpose to yourself even with the thought that everything is predetermined. Who cares if choice and will are illusions; you're experiencing them. All senses are illusion; you've never actualy seen the world, you're entire life is a simulation of your brain that's supposed to represent the world around you. I don't care if it's depressing, I'm not basing the idea that everything is predetermined in our lives on feelings or opinions but on logic. In daily life I can choose to ignore it and make choices and take my own paths even if it's all predetermined because that works for me. I understand completely if that doesn't work for you and others; same reason that some pepole can not walk around life with a certain open question in their minds so they assign some truth to it wether based on facts or not, like any religion.

[Collinsworthington]

in my mind i agree with everything u just said, but i see it like this, my mom was an abused foster kid, she worked hard and now makes 60k as a counsellor, im raised by a single mom with decent money and plan to climb the ladder and become a physician making 180k, then hopefully my kids will become even wealthier, and so on...
even if you cant have the best life, u can insure it for your kids and theirs :)