Should it be illegal or legal to defame a flag?

[Lovelife090994]

In America the Texas vs Johnson case in 1989 made it where burning or desecrating a US flag is an expression of free speech; as long as you didn't steal the said flag. Many Americans are extremely patriotic and nationalistic when it comes to this subject, many would even want this to be illegal and want to hurt the people involved.

I think as long as no one is hurt and the act is done with a flag you bought then it should be legal. At the end of the day a flag is just a piece of sewn and dyed fabric to represent a country, idea, place, or thing. Desecration of a flag does not mean you hate the people or even the land but maybe rather the government. Example, many people do not support Israel but they are in no way against the Hebrew people, Jews, or Judaism. And to be frank given the historical circumstances and hypocrisy in most countries' pasts it is safe to say that most flags no longer represent the people. In America's case we are a "land of the free and home of the brave." But how can this be true when we are a nation built on the backs of slavery, war, and genocide? (One people love to sweep under a rug...)

I understand the hurt a veteran may feel to see a flag destroyed but free speech is free speech. I saw articles and memes of how supposedly stepping on a US flag is to step on a veteran's casket. I also see how some are deliberately doing this in response to the riots in Baltimore to show how the American flag no longer represents its people equally.

And I kind of agree with the latter. America has never been the land of the free and home of the brave but rather the land of inequality and home of the religiously bigoted. Even to this day in the 21st century the people who represent us and a large ratio of the "us" are those who gag at homosexuality and LGBT rights but relish in the sight of violence and guns. Isn't this a little hypocritical to the flag? Is it justified for someone to dishonor the flag of any country because that flag no longer represents everyone in the country?

Technically America (for example and subject), has taxation without representation. Many territories pay taxes yet have no vote, the District of Columbia included. LGBT citizens have little to no say or protections yet pay taxes. Minorities are under-represented in government yet pay taxes and in some cases at higher rates than the privileged few. And in the country people don't trust Atheists and liken them to demons and Satanists and in some states an Atheist cannot even run for public office! We say we are a voice of freedom yet when one person disagrees and burns a flag we want to kill him/her? No, I don't like it, and I do get why it's legal to burn flags. If you disagree with a country or feel it has abandoned its flag, what better way to say so in a country of freedom than to desecrate the flag! In their heads it makes sense yet hurts no one.

I DO NOT ENCOURAGE THIS, BUT I would never kill someone for it or deem it as treason. It's a flag. And frankly no country is perfect or innocent.

What are your thoughts?

[Uniquemind]

It's a stupid thing to do that is symbolic in nature for the sole purpose of expressing discontent.

It's also unnecessarily adding pollution to the air if one chooses the burning route...greenhouses gases and all.



If your unhappy about something but you live in a democracy, educate yourself and vote smarter and understand more and more points of view and don't stop gaining knowledge.

Don't vote against your own interests either.

[Vermilion]

Your in the USA I'm the UK we've had flag burning and poppy burning. Both i think are wrong.

[thatcountrykid]

It's not just a price of cloth. Honestly you saying that is an insult. It's a flag and a symbol my family has fought for and thousands upon thousands have died for. If they want to burn the flag, my flag, they will have a fight on their hands. Dont like this country? Fucking leave.

[Sardintroll]

I think it should be illegal. Defaming a flag of any country, your own or not, is disrespectful in my opinion.

[Dreamer98]

I think that it should be illegal . We don't have to love each other ( best would be if all humans would love each other no matter on differences ) , but we should respect others at least . :D :)

[Vlerchan]

Legal.

Freedom of expression, etc.

[Lovelife090994]

Why is everyone so threatened by a piece of fabric being damaged? Yet most of you would love to kill people who do this? Wow, I will never get why humans place value on trivial things that can be replaced.

Legal.

Freedom of expression, etc.

For once I actually agree.

[Syzygy]

It's not just a price of cloth. Honestly you saying that is an insult. It's a flag and a symbol my family has fought for and thousands upon thousands have died for. If they want to burn the flag, my flag, they will have a fight on their hands. Dont like this country? Fucking leave.
----

[Microcosm]

It's one of those things that's just generally a crap thing to do because it's pointlessly offensive, but rather than being illegal, you simply should have to deal with the bad looks and such that you will get.

It does quite annoy me when people act like America is the greatest nation in the world. We've done some pretty bad things which you have mentioned above. So, historically, we're not very bright.

Anyways, my answer: it clearly shouldn't be illegal.

I think that it should be illegal . We don't have to love each other ( best would be if all humans would love each other no matter on differences ) , but we should respect others at least . :D :)

Yes we should respect each other, but that doesn't justify punishing someone for expressing their thoughts. Think about it. Are they doing something wrong? Really? That's the question.

[Stronk Serb]

Here the leader of the radical party publicly burned the Croatian flag (burning any flag here is illegal) and the police took him in. In custody he said that was a table cloth coloured like the flag and that they can't prove from the ashes that it's a flag. They let him go.

[thatcountrykid]

do you mean you will physically fight them? I know a lot of people who would do such a thing.. I am not anti-american but I am not enraged at all, I see it as an expression of free speech which is one of our tenets

I'm saying I'll do what it takes to get the flag back. To me, it's not just a price of cloth. It means something to me. It's not something you can disrespect to prove your point.

[CosmicNoodle]

It's not just a price of cloth. Honestly you saying that is an insult. It's a flag and a symbol my family has fought for and thousands upon thousands have died for. If they want to burn the flag, my flag, they will have a fight on their hands. Dont like this country? Fucking leave.

You're ridiculous

[kev99]

I see nothing wrong about destroying a flag in public, as long as you own the thing. Sure, it is gratuitous provocation, but so are people waving their own flags around to express their national pride.

If it is ok to wave a flag to express racial, social, or national superiority (and it unfortunately happen regularly), then I don't see why it wouldn't be ok to burn a flag to express the rejection of such feelings.

[thatcountrykid]

You're ridiculous

How so? Cause it find it disrespectful to to burn and stomp on the flag that so many people have died for. Mutual respect sir.

[kev99]

How so? Cause it find it disrespectful to to burn and stomp on the flag that so many people have died for. Mutual respect sir.

But isn't it wrong to respect a flag just because people "died for it"? I mean, wouldn't the correct thing be fighting for ideas, values, instead of a nation the flag embodies?

Also, what about dictatorships? Many people died defending horrible dictators, and many still do today under various flags. Are we supposed to show such symbols respect when they represent values we consider repulsive, just because "people are dying for it"?

[CosmicNoodle]

How so? Cause it find it disrespectful to to burn and stomp on the flag that so many people have died for. Mutual respect sir.

People have also died over the price of a parking ticket, does that mean I should respect parking tickets and treat them as if they have some sort of inherent value? No. But I'm not going to bother arguing with you, you're a red neck, to you an American flag may as well be a god.

[Microcosm]

People have also died over the price of a parking ticket, does that mean I should respect parking tickets and treat them as if they have some sort of inherent value? No. But I'm not going to bother arguing with you, you're a red neck, to you an American flag may as well be a god.

Just because he has respect for something he believes in doesn't really justify you reprimanding him. What's going through your head when you blatantly insult people like this? Goodness...

Anyways, I think it's great to respect our nation; however, freedom of speech and expression of your beliefs is part of what this nation is founded on. Therefore, we should be allowed to publicly express our opinions even if that means defaming the symbol of the nation that gives and enforces towards us the right to do so.

[Dreamer98]

Yes we should respect each other, but that doesn't justify punishing someone for expressing their thoughts. Think about it. Are they doing something wrong? Really? That's the question.

Yeah .. :D
But it leads to generalization of one group . I mean , when Seselj burnt American flag , Croatian flag and NATO flag , whole West among with Croatia generalized Serbians as whole nation did that , not some unimportant political figure that hasn't even single seat in parliament . It just makes problems to country and people .
It leads to nowhere . :D :D
Democratic is sword with two blades , everyone in democratic know their right , but no one knows obligations . :D

[CosmicNoodle]

What's going through your head when you blatantly insult people like this?[/B]

https://p.gr-assets.com/540x540/fit/hostedimages/1391499111/8400137.jpg

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/4614512/i-m-out-o.gif

[Microcosm]

image (https://p.gr-assets.com/540x540/fit/hostedimages/1391499111/8400137.jpg)

image (http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/4614512/i-m-out-o.gif)

But I'm not going to bother arguing with you, you're a red neck, to you an American flag may as well be a god.

Okay.

[Lovelife090994]

CosmicNoodle he hit the nail on the head. Some treat the flag like it's a cultist religious icon. So people died for it? People are killing and killed because of it. The flag also represents the evil and racism America was built on.

[Vlerchan]

[...] not some unimportant political figure that hasn't even single seat in parliament.
Seselj is a former deputy prime minister [and current leader of the Serbian far-right]. He's not unimportant.

It's also the case that if Serbians disagreed with this then staging a march or protest in opposition would help dispel ideas of their agreement, using their own right to free speech.

Some treat the flag like it's a cultist religious icon.
The flag is symbolic of the nation and its achievements and nationalists value their identification derived from this.

That also doesn't mean they need to agree with everything it's done, it just means they value their link between it and them.

[Dreamer98]

Seselj is a former deputy prime minister [and current leader of the Serbian far-right]. He's not unimportant.

It's also the case that if Serbians disagreed with this then staging a march or protest in opposition would help dispel ideas of their agreement, using their own right to free speech.



Yeah , but that was during 90's , he wasn't very popular at the time ( 90's ) , and plus he was in coalition with SPO and Milosevic , because Milosevic couldn't form government without few percents more than DOS ( Democratic Opposition of Serbia ) . :D :)
He political past now , just look Seselj's political meetings during early 2000's , and look it after he came back , even minority parties have more supporters than Seselj has now . He is totally unimportant now . He's past ... :D :D :D

[Vlerchan]

Yeah , but that was during 90's , he wasn't very popular at the time ( 90's ) , and plus he was in coalition with SPO and Milosevic , because Milosevic couldn't form government without few percents more than DOS ( Democratic Opposition of Serbia ) .
He political past now , just look Seselj's political meetings during early 2000's , and look it after he came back , even minority parties have more supporters than Seselj has now . He is totally unimportant now . He's past ...
I realise all this. But his past importance still resonates right now with people. Him being the figurehead of the far-right In Serbia is enough though. Nick Griffin - who led the British far-right - is still a mentionable figure because of his position within the far-right and the BNP have negligible support.

I also just checked and realised that the flag-burning took place last month. That wasn't major news here in the West and no-one's claiming that all Serbian's hate the West so I'm now inclined to question to premise of your argument.

[Dreamer98]

I realise all this. But his past importance still resonates right now with people. Him being the figurehead of the far-right In Serbia is enough though. Nick Griffin - who led the British far-right - is still a mentionable figure because of his position within the far-right and the BNP have negligible support.

I also just checked and realised that the flag-burning took place last month. That wasn't major news here in the West and no-one's claiming that all Serbian's hate the West so I'm now inclined to question to premise of your argument.

Hahahahahahha :D
Yeah . :D :)
Far right is past in Serbia , only opposition at this time are leftist parties among some national minorities representing parties . :D

I would just like to people stop offending others , so we can all live in peace and in happiness . It's not news that're important , it's important that some unimportant crazy individuals send bad image of whole country and people to the rest of World . That's sad , because people let them mire whole nation , and it's in human basic to generalize . Usually most of other peoples around world will generalize whole nation because some bad acts of some unimportant individuals . :D

[Syzygy]

Just because he has respect for something he believes in doesn't really justify you reprimanding him. What's going through your head when you blatantly insult people like this? Goodness...

Anyways, I think it's great to respect our nation; however, freedom of speech and expression of your beliefs is part of what this nation is founded on. Therefore, we should be allowed to publicly express our opinions even if that means defaming the symbol of the nation that gives and enforces towards us the right to do so.

----

[Stronk Serb]

Hahahahahahha :D
Yeah . :D :)
Far right is past in Serbia , only opposition at this time are leftist parties among some national minorities representing parties . :D

I would just like to people stop offending others , so we can all live in peace and in happiness . It's not news that're important , it's important that some unimportant crazy individuals send bad image of whole country and people to the rest of World . That's sad , because people let them mire whole nation , and it's in human basic to generalize . Usually most of other peoples around world will generalize whole nation because some bad acts of some unimportant individuals . :D

Let everybody burn flags as long as they own them lmao. Also we have centrist pieces of shit rolling around. The DOS decendants are mostly seatless but they put back some of the 90's scum back in the government. The left here died with Tito pretty much. Our prime minister is on a power boner now, censoring stuff left or right, putting his ugly face on every public wall, saying he takes responsibility for everything. I would burn posters with his face lmao.

[Dreamer98]

Let everybody burn flags as long as they own them lmao. Also we have centrist pieces of shit rolling around. The DOS decendants are mostly seatless but they put back some of the 90's scum back in the government. The left here died with Tito pretty much. Our prime minister is on a power boner now, censoring stuff left or right, putting his ugly face on every public wall, saying he takes responsibility for everything. I would burn posters with his face lmao.

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahaha :D :D
That's "positive stance" towards life of Serbian youth . :D

[thatcountrykid]

CosmicNoodle he hit the nail on the head. Some treat the flag like it's a cultist religious icon. So people died for it? People are killing and killed because of it. The flag also represents the evil and racism America was built on.

What about the flag promotes racism? Jesus Christ. And no I don't worship the flag. I respect it. It is my country. I have pride for where j come from. I may not support my leaders. Does me loving my flag and my land make me racist?

The flag to me represents the people and the land. It represents the freedoms we were founded and reaching for. Yes it hasn't fully been achieved yet and it will take a long time but Iove this place and all her imperfections b

[Lovelife090994]

What about the flag promotes racism? Jesus Christ. And no I don't worship the flag. I respect it. It is my country. I have pride for where j come from. I may not support my leaders. Does me loving my flag and my land make me racist?

The flag to me represents the people and the land. It represents the freedoms we were founded and reaching for. Yes it hasn't fully been achieved yet and it will take a long time but Iove this place and all her imperfections b

The flag UNIVERSALLY represents a country, nothing more, nothing less. The second paragraph you typed is subjective. Not everyone is going to believe a flag represents freedoms, rights, or the people who fight under this aforementioned flag regardless of nation.

[thatcountrykid]

The flag UNIVERSALLY represents a country, nothing more, nothing less. The second paragraph you typed is subjective. Not everyone is going to believe a flag represents freedoms, rights, or the people who fight under this aforementioned flag regardless of nation.

Obviously not. If they felt the same as me this wouldn't be an issue.

Yes that is how I beleive and how I feel and that's the opinion I will defend. If fight for that flag. And die for it.

[Gwen]

A flag is a sign and icon for the country, the defamation and purposeful destruction or vandalism of the flag is similar to making an effigy of a politician and burning it. You are showing your discontempt for the state and its ideals. I don't believe in severe punishment but this kind of behaviour and obvious dislike for state should be treated in kind, even a small fine would do. People are able to express opinion and expression without going and ruining a symbol for the people and land of the their country. If you wish to destroy a symbol of the country that represents many things for the people who live and/or serve under it you should reconsider your thoughts on respect and community, maybe consider making a statement by leaving the country instead.

[Lovelife090994]

A flag is a sign and icon for the country, the defamation and purposeful destruction or vandalism of the flag is similar to making an effigy of a politician and burning it. You are showing your discontempt for the state and its ideals. I don't believe in severe punishment but this kind of behaviour and obvious dislike for state should be treated in kind, even a small fine would do. People are able to express opinion and expression without going and ruining a symbol for the people and land of the their country. If you wish to destroy a symbol of the country that represents many things for the people who live and/or serve under it you should reconsider your thoughts on respect and community, maybe consider making a statement by leaving the country instead.

Just because you live in a country doesn't mean you have to like it. Many people who have discontent to their country were born in it and have no way of leaving since it takes a lot of money and time to move your life to another country usually across oceans. One beautiful thing about living in a modern and secular nation is that you don't have to be quiet or like everything.

[Gwen]

Just because you live in a country doesn't mean you have to like it. Many people who have discontent to their country were born in it and have no way of leaving since it takes a lot of money and time to move your life to another country usually across oceans. One beautiful thing about living in a modern and secular nation is that you don't have to be quiet or like everything.

Fair point. Being quiet or not liking everything in your country does not mean you should be able to defame a sign of respect and admiration for many in the country. If you are entitled to freedom of speech and emotion you can express yourself in less offensive ways rather than using a meaningful symbol to many. People don't stand for defaming religious symbols or historical symbols why should flags (A representation of the state) be treated any differently? Once again, people are just doing something on par to effigy burning of a person but instead constituting country, government, military and citizens.

[fairmaiden]

I think it's weird to burn a flag that belongs to the country that you reside in, but at the same time; am I going to tackle and elbow-slam someone who does it? Of course not.

I have no idea why someone would burn their country's flag, but it's got nothing to do with me and it's their own decision. For all I know they could be doing a damn Tumblr grunge photoshoot.

[Liven]

The West Borough Baptists are a great example of flag defamation. It offends soldiers who fight for the country, and the citizens.

I think it should be illegal, it does nothing good, and if you live in a nation where you want to defame a flag, maybe this place isn't right for you.

[Vermilion]

The West Borough Baptists are a great example of flag defamation. It offends soldiers who fight for the country, and the citizens.

I think it should be illegal, it does nothing good, and if you live in a nation where you want to defame a flag, maybe this place isn't right for you.

I'm in the UK but couldn't agree more with you :D I honestly think if I caught someone burning my country's flag or union jack I would happily get arrested for assault

[Uniquemind]

I will say that if global warming gets worse though, for national security reasons, burning anything (including flags) that release and contribute to the problem of greenhouse gases should be made illegal within the urgent life/death context of a mundane act in a very critical situation.


But freedom of speech is freedom of speech even if I disagree.

Also it is true that history should not be looked at with rose colored glasses, the past was never this glorious mythologized thing. In fact the past was just as morally sticky and gray, as our present is.

War is always atrocious, and assume very violent things happened including slavery and massive rape and torture.

[Lovelife090994]

Wow, society has so far to go. We value a flag over human and animal life...

[Microcosm]

Obviously not. If they felt the same as me this wouldn't be an issue.

Yes that is how I beleive and how I feel and that's the opinion I will defend. If fight for that flag. And die for it.

Yes, but the question is whether it should be legal or not. Based on the principal of freedom of speech, it obviously should. Basically, whether you like it or not, this country values the right to expression of your opinions. This, like it or not, is an expression of opinion. You are a) not hurting anyone and b) not killing anyone. Let me tell you a foundation that I believe our country was built on when the founding fathers gave us the right to bear arms and to overthrow the government if it became tyrannical: We do not worship or respect this nation in itself simply because it is our nation. We respect the law and order of this nation only insofar as it does not become tyrannical. We respect this nation because it has good principals in government(or at least that's what we like to think). If these principals fall apart at any time, then we have not only the right, but the obligation to restore this nation to a "better" place(whatever we'd decide that is). So, for the people burning flags, this nation has gotten to that point and they want to express that.

Unless, of course, you have an issue with freedom of speech? One of the very foundations of the country you so dearly love?

[Uniquemind]

Yes, but the question is whether it should be legal or not. Based on the principal of freedom of speech, it obviously should. Basically, whether you like it or not, this country values the right to expression of your opinions. This, like it or not, is an expression of opinion. You are a) not hurting anyone and b) not killing anyone. Let me tell you a foundation that I believe our country was built on when the founding fathers gave us the right to bear arms and to overthrow the government if it became tyrannical: We do not worship or respect this nation in itself simply because it is our nation. We respect the law and order of this nation only insofar as it does not become tyrannical. We respect this nation because it has good principals in government(or at least that's what we like to think). If these principals fall apart at any time, then we have not only the right, but the obligation to restore this nation to a "better" place(whatever we'd decide that is). So, for the people burning flags, this nation has gotten to that point and they want to express that.

Unless, of course, you have an issue with freedom of speech? One of the very foundations of the country you so dearly love?

Actually everything people do hurts someone else.


It's just in the case of flag burning, you are hurting other people as well as yourself in a very small tiny way, and at a very slow rate.

For instance you aren't controlling the by-product of the smoke or burnt object to a confined space, and you're letting people inhale it the by-product which probably has toxic molecules in it.

But I digress I'm being way to literal and nit-picky here, but I'm not wrong.

[Microcosm]

Actually everything people do hurts someone else.


It's just in the case of flag burning, you are hurting other people as well as yourself in a very small tiny way, and at a very slow rate.

For instance you aren't controlling the by-product of the smoke or burnt object to a confined space, and you're letting people inhale it the by-product which probably has toxic molecules in it.

But I digress I'm being way to literal and nit-picky here, but I'm not wrong.

So, for you, the question is what should we value more: freedom of speech or how much it hurts others? Or do both matter in their own way?

[Uniquemind]

So, for you, the question is what should we value more: freedom of speech or how much it hurts others? Or do both matter in their own way?

After seeing how much money is skewering and creating an imbalance in the principles of democracy in the USA --and since campaign money contributions are considered a form of free speech-- I would have to say how much it hurts others should be valued more.


Founding Father's theory that person A's freedom of speech will cancel out person B's freedom of speech on opposing sides of an issue, does not work in practice. It is a fatal flaw if freedom of speech is defined as it currently is by the courts.


--

Now to get back to the issue of symbolism like (flags and stuff) symbols are great but they also contribute to a vast illusion.

Symbols do represent something, but they also represent a snapshot in time, which may not accurately describe the present moment in time's problems.

Therefore the symbol which used to stand for something good and noble and worth fighting for becomes perverted without a large chunk of society noticing.

Those people are stuck in the past with a symbol (like a flag) talking about "the good ole days" and defending a memory rather than shaping and defending the future and fighting the good fight in the present day.


A good example of a perverted symbol is the swastika, which even by these forum's rules is banned, and probably the original symbol that the swastika perverted, by being slightly rotated and inverted, gets confused with the original symbol which mean peace.


The next challenge of humanity is to have principles and ideals and common sense and logic ingrained into their very being, without any outside tool necessary for them to internalize and move society to progress.

You have to know at the core what to do and what not to do, and then you act; thought first, then action.

[Vlerchan]

If you are entitled to freedom of speech and emotion you can express yourself in less offensive ways rather than using a meaningful symbol to many.
"Freedom is always the freedom of dissenters." Rosa Luxenbourg.

You don't have freedom when it's restricted in-line with popular norms.

---

I also don't think a single other state equates donations with speech.

[thatcountrykid]

Yes, but the question is whether it should be legal or not. Based on the principal of freedom of speech, it obviously should. Basically, whether you like it or not, this country values the right to expression of your opinions. This, like it or not, is an expression of opinion. You are a) not hurting anyone and b) not killing anyone. Let me tell you a foundation that I believe our country was built on when the founding fathers gave us the right to bear arms and to overthrow the government if it became tyrannical: We do not worship or respect this nation in itself simply because it is our nation. We respect the law and order of this nation only insofar as it does not become tyrannical. We respect this nation because it has good principals in government(or at least that's what we like to think). If these principals fall apart at any time, then we have not only the right, but the obligation to restore this nation to a "better" place(whatever we'd decide that is). So, for the people burning flags, this nation has gotten to that point and they want to express that.

Unless, of course, you have an issue with freedom of speech? One of the very foundations of the country you so dearly love?

Of course I don't have an issue with freedom of speech. How ever I do beleive a lot of people treat it as a one sided deal which I dont.

Yes they can burn the flag however I find it disrespectful and will do what I can to pay my respects to and if possible save it. It's not just a flag to me

[Microcosm]

Of course I don't have an issue with freedom of speech. How ever I do beleive a lot of people treat it as a one sided deal which I dont.

Yes they can burn the flag however I find it disrespectful and will do what I can to pay my respects to and if possible save it. It's not just a flag to me

It is actually defined as a one sided deal. The concept of freedom of speech is that it is a human right which each and every one of us have. That's what the founding fathers thought. You seem to think that the concept is that the government provides us with freedom of speech; however, in the actual theory of human rights this is not so. Therefore, associating our right of freedom of speech to any government is ludicrous. So, it is our unalienable right to speak and express our thoughts as long as we aren't hurting or killing anyone. By this logic, you are still given the freedom to dislike my actions if I were to burn a flag; however, restricting and punishing such a thing would not follow the theory of freedom of speech on which this country is founded.

When you are asking whether something should be legal or illegal, you don't ask yourself how it effects only you. You ask how it effects and works with every individual within a society. With such logic in mind, it's only fair that flag burning should be legal.

[Uniquemind]

"Freedom is always the freedom of dissenters." Rosa Luxenbourg.

You don't have freedom when it's restricted in-line with popular norms.

---

I also don't think a single other state equates donations with speech.

I'm sorry rephrase please.

By state do you mean country?

Because in America the 1st amendment of free speech and freedom of expression, how you spend your money is protected within that amendment and that is why political donations to campaigns are considered "untouchable" and unlimited.

Because the 1st Amendment says "Congress shall make no law..."

[Vlerchan]

By state do you mean country?
Yes. The US is the only country I'm aware of that has speech encompass political donations - that allows political donations count as speech - that considers political donations a form of speech.

Your criticism is quite US-centric as a result. Though the debate itself is quite US-centric I realise. Which is the reason I imagined it as a passing remark.

[Zenos]

I think it's wrong and should be illegal because you are insulting everyone from the founders on down to present day people who have strived to make this a better nation for all it's citizens regardless of their race,religion sexuality or gender!

[Vlerchan]

I think it's wrong and should be illegal because you are insulting everyone from the founders on down to present day people who have strived to make this a better nation for all it's citizens regardless of their race,religion sexuality or gender!
Should it also be illegal to exclaim 'fuck the USA'?

[Babs]

I don't give a shit if someone burns a flag or whatever else. Sure, it may be disrespectful. I understand it has a lot of meaning to some people, but when you get right down to it, it's a piece of cloth.

[Lovelife090994]

I don't give a shit if someone burns a flag or whatever else. Sure, it may be disrespectful. I understand it has a lot of meaning to some people, but when you get right down to it, it's a piece of cloth.

Br-ah-vo. Bravo, you have reason.

[sweettayla]

Ilegal.

[Microcosm]

Ilegal.

Explain this claim, please.

[sweettayla]

Several years ago we had a problem with Muslim immigrants generally being assholes and trying to force their way of life onto us. One of their ways of protesting was burning the Australian flag, so the Australian government bought in legislation to make it illegal and l agree with them. While l respect the argument about freedom of speech, it's not always right and l consider burning someones flag extremely disrespectful.

[Lovelife090994]

Several years ago we had a problem with Muslim immigrants generally being assholes and trying to force their way of life onto us. One of their ways of protesting was burning the Australian flag, so the Australian government bought in legislation to make it illegal and l agree with them. While l respect the argument about freedom of speech, it's not always right and l consider burning someones flag extremely disrespectful.

You have the right to be offended, you do not have the right to ban what is offensive to YOU. Burning a flag is just burning a piece of fabric. Just because one person burns a flag out of terrorism does not mean someone ELSE does it for that same reason. Flags are burned every day, what we should be worried about are the innocents killed under these flags. Flags on fire, just another thing burning, nothing more. Fire does not discriminate.

[Beth]

Illegal

[Babs]

Several years ago we had a problem with Muslim immigrants generally being assholes and trying to force their way of life onto us. One of their ways of protesting was burning the Australian flag, so the Australian government bought in legislation to make it illegal and l agree with them. While l respect the argument about freedom of speech, it's not always right and l consider burning someones flag extremely disrespectful.

But is being disrespectful worthy of conviction?

[sweettayla]

You have the right to be offended, you do not have the right to ban what is offensive to YOU. Burning a flag is just burning a piece of fabric. Just because one person burns a flag out of terrorism does not mean someone ELSE does it for that same reason. Flags are burned every day, what we should be worried about are the innocents killed under these flags. Flags on fire, just another thing burning, nothing more. Fire does not discriminate.
I have no wish to get into an argument, but the Australian flag is a lot more than just a piece of fabric to me.

[sweettayla]

But is being disrespectful worthy of conviction?
When it's being burnt out of hatred for your country and way of life, yes l believe it is.

[Seahawks15]

Illegal,definitely illegal.

[Babs]

When it's being burnt out of hatred for your country and way of life, yes l believe it is.

Is it disrespectful? Absolutely. But it's not actually harming another human being.

[sweettayla]

No it's not, but at what point does it become something other than a piece of fabric and something you're willing to stand up for and defend?

[Microcosm]

For those people who are simply responding with "Illegal" in this post and nothing more, I encourage you to think about an argument as to why it should be illegal and then share that with us.

[Babs]

No it's not, but at what point does it become something other than a piece of fabric and something you're willing to stand up for and defend?

Whether one is willing to stand up for a flag is irrelevent. Hell, stand up for it, don't stand up for it, I don't care. But criminal charges, even just a fine, for burning a flag is bullshit.

[Lovelife090994]

For those people who are simply responding with "Illegal" in this post and nothing more, I encourage you to think about an argument as to why it should be illegal and then share that with us.

I haven't noticed...

Whether one is willing to stand up for a flag is irrelevent. Hell, stand up for it, don't stand up for it, I don't care. But criminal charges, even just a fine, for burning a flag is bullshit.

I agree. Why put people in jail for burning a piece of fabric while rapists got off easy, cops kill innocents, LGBT have no protections, and people go to jail for pot? It's all the opposite of a free country. (Talking about America.)

[Microcosm]

Illegal,definitely illegal.

Ilegal.

Illegal

I haven't noticed...
you haven't?

[CRH99]

"if there is a bedrock principle underlying the First Amendment, it is that the Government may not prohibit the expression of an idea simply because society finds the idea itself offensive or disagreeable."- Antonin Scalia
this was the reason Johnson won his case vs Texas, freedom of expression. as long as it does not cause harm to other citizens or their property, it is perfectly legal. and as stated above by please do provide an argument for why you think it should be illegal.

[Ridonks_CB]

"if there is a bedrock principle underlying the First Amendment, it is that the Government may not prohibit the expression of an idea simply because society finds the idea itself offensive or disagreeable."- Antonin Scalia
this was the reason Johnson won his case vs Texas, freedom of expression. as long as it does not cause harm to other citizens or their property, it is perfectly legal. and as stated above by please do provide an argument for why you think it should be illegal.

Basically sums up what I think.
I find it quite irritating that the burning/walking upon an U.S. flag gets more attention than actual criminals, such as police brutality.

[Zenos]

I don't give a shit if someone burns a flag or whatever else. Sure, it may be disrespectful. I understand it has a lot of meaning to some people, but when you get right down to it, it's a piece of cloth.

A piece of cloth that symbolizes the efforts of such mean and Martin Luther King Jr,etc etc so yes just go ahead and step on it and symbolically insult him and others who have did their best to make this a better nation for all it's citizens

[Babs]

A piece of cloth that symbolizes the efforts of such mean and Martin Luther King Jr,etc etc so yes just go ahead and step on it and symbolically insult him and others who have did their best to make this a better nation for all it's citizens

I'm not claiming it's morally sound. I'm just saying it's stupid for it to be illegal.

[Ridonks_CB]

A piece of cloth that symbolizes the efforts of such mean and Martin Luther King Jr,etc etc so yes just go ahead and step on it and symbolically insult him and others who have did their best to make this a better nation for all it's citizens

To be honest I don't think Martin Luther King Jr. would care if a piece of cloth made in China was burned by its purchaser

[BlueFoot]

It's not just a price of cloth. Honestly you saying that is an insult. It's a flag and a symbol my family has fought for and thousands upon thousands have died for. If they want to burn the flag, my flag, they will have a fight on their hands. Dont like this country? Fucking leave.

Right on Mr.Police person

Why is everyone so threatened by a piece of fabric being damaged? Yet most of you would love to kill people who do this? Wow, I will never get why humans place value on trivial things that can be replaced.



For once I actually agree.

Because the flag symbolizes everything the country stands for including the people that died for it.

[Microcosm]

Right on Mr.Police person



Because the flag symbolizes everything the country stands for including the people that died for it.

What do you propose the punishment be for burning a flag? Imprisonment? Fine? Do any of those punishments really seem necessary for burning a piece of cloth?

The flag is representative of the values and history of the U.S.
People do not agree with the history and values of the U.S.
To express this belief in a peaceful, yet effective way, they burn this flag to show their disagreement.
Makes sense to me as an expression of freedom of speech, which is believed to be our inherent right.

[Lovelife090994]

Right on Mr.Police person



Because the flag symbolizes everything the country stands for including the people that died for it.

By that logic, flags represent every evil done in the country's name! America for instance was built on hatred and we've had over 400 years of discrimination and racism on this continent and still have it!

[BlueFoot]

By that logic, flags represent every evil done in the country's name! America for instance was built on hatred and we've had over 400 years of discrimination and racism on this continent and still have it!

Yes I agree America is nothing to be proud of, but other countries like Canada or Australia haven't done that shit deserve the flag to be respected so it should be illegal.

What do you propose the punishment be for burning a flag? Imprisonment? Fine? Do any of those punishments really seem necessary for burning a piece of cloth?

The flag is representative of the values and history of the U.S.
People do not agree with the history and values of the U.S.
To express this belief in a peaceful, yet effective way, they burn this flag to show their disagreement.
Makes sense to me as an expression of freedom of speech, which is believed to be our inherent right.


Yes, but the world doesn't revolve around 'Merica does it? Canada stands for true freedom while the US stands for racism and murdering for money, I'm talking about the flags of half decent countries

[Microcosm]

Yes, but the world doesn't revolve around 'Merica does it? Canada stands for true freedom while the US stands for racism and murdering for money, I'm talking about the flags of half decent countries

America would be considered "half-decent" by most standards I believe. Somehow insulting my home country progresses the argument? That's a low blow.

Anyways, it doesn't matter what country you're in. The argument still stands. Replace "U.S." with "Canada" if that makes you happy. Then the argument still stands.

[BlueFoot]

America would be considered "half-decent" by most standards I believe. Somehow insulting my home country progresses the argument? That's a low blow.

Anyways, it doesn't matter what country you're in. The argument still stands. Replace "U.S." with "Canada" if that makes you happy. Then the argument still stands.

Canada hasn't done some of the monstrosities America has, all Canada did was send the First Nations to schools and we apologized for it after. at least we aren't beating on black people and Mexicans for being Black or Mexican. I was only using America as an example I could use a different country, honestly I have no idea about other countries using black people for forced labour other than the UK selling them, the US was just the biggest user of it. Also I don't really see how that was such a "low blow" as I was putting it in the most easy way and not really trying to make any peoples upset. As stereotypical Canadians say sorry if I offended

[Microcosm]

Canada hasn't done some of the monstrosities America has, all Canada did was send the First Nations to schools and we apologized for it after. at least we aren't beating on black people and Mexicans for being Black or Mexican. I was only using America as an example I could use a different country, honestly I have no idea about other countries using black people for forced labour other than the UK selling them, the US was just the biggest user of it. Also I don't really see how that was such a "low blow" as I was putting it in the most easy way and not really trying to make any peoples upset. As stereotypical Canadians say sorry if I offended

It's cool. I kind of over reacted a bit. In the past, the U.S. Has done some pretty contemptible things. Canada wasn't all that involved in a lot of the issues in which the U.S. was involved, though.

[Lovelife090994]

Canada hasn't done some of the monstrosities America has, all Canada did was send the First Nations to schools and we apologized for it after. at least we aren't beating on black people and Mexicans for being Black or Mexican. I was only using America as an example I could use a different country, honestly I have no idea about other countries using black people for forced labour other than the UK selling them, the US was just the biggest user of it. Also I don't really see how that was such a "low blow" as I was putting it in the most easy way and not really trying to make any peoples upset. As stereotypical Canadians say sorry if I offended

I'm pretty sure Canada's no pearl either. No country on Earth is perfect or free from corruption and government misdeeds.

[BlueFoot]

I'm pretty sure Canada's no pearl either. No country on Earth is perfect or free from corruption and government misdeeds.

Of course Canada has corruption every country has at least a little, but Canada doesn't support corruption, as I said all Canada has really done is send the First Nations to schools and we apologized to them for it afterwards. So we got nothing to be not proud of any more.

[Lovelife090994]

Of course Canada has corruption every country has at least a little, but Canada doesn't support corruption, as I said all Canada has really done is send the First Nations to schools and we apologized to them for it afterwards. So we got nothing to be not proud of any more.

Do you honestly think the whole of the over 300 million people in America support corruption either? No, we hate it but we're the government's slaves and don't realize it.

[Ridonks_CB]

Do you honestly thing the whole of the over 300 million people in America support corruption either? No, we hate it but we're the government's slaves and don't realize it.

And the ones that do are either silenced by everyone else's ignorance/stubborness or youre killed. Ah, government

[Zenos]

To be honest I don't think Martin Luther King Jr. would care if a piece of cloth made in China was burned by its purchaser


Well seeing as he's dead and we can't find out you are engaging in useless speculation