Do most guys look.at us as sexual object?

[AliceParks]

I am just obsessed with this question. Do we enjoy when men want us only for our bodies? Do we enjoy showing them our bodies and attractions?
Today in some societies, particularly in the West we can walk semi-naked in public, swim topless, patronize bars and clubs, smoke, drink, dance in discos and have sex with anybody we feel like. We can even serve our boyfriends, like an unpaid prostitute, and be free to murder our unborn babies if we fall pregnant. Women can also compete in the business world by using their bodies to promote commercial commodities. At the end of the day we will be regarded as a truly ‘liberated’ woman... Look at the glossy cover of any magazine or advertisements on TV and newspaper, you will find that most of these advertisements have scantily dressed women in alluring poses to attract the attention of men. This proves that the Western society considers woman only as a sex symbol.
There are many guys who just date us for having sex. They just love our bodies for nights. I am really curious to know your opinion. Why do we let men look at our naked bodies and satisfy their desires? Do you enjoy when they praises our attractive bodies? What does it give us? If they ask us for all the money we have got, we probably do not pay them anything. But when they ask ud for a one night stand sex, we may accept. Is the value of our bodies less than money?
What do you think? Do men only want us for our bodies? Have your boyfriends left you after sleeping with you or after you got pregnant?

[Living For Love]

Teen Sexuality and Gender :arrow2: ROTW

[Dying Ember]

For some men that's their only aim, but I wouldn't agree with 'men only want us for out bodies'

[Vermilion]

I might look at a girl cos I think she has a nice body but is she has no personality or Is just stuck up i don't want anything to do with her.

[fiftycents]

Women isn't a sexual object....or at least an object. They're humans. And NOT all men are like that, so please don't generalize.

[Uniquemind]

I am just obsessed with this question. Do we enjoy when men want us only for our bodies? Do we enjoy showing them our bodies and attractions?
Today in some societies, particularly in the West we can walk semi-naked in public, swim topless, patronize bars and clubs, smoke, drink, dance in discos and have sex with anybody we feel like. We can even serve our boyfriends, like an unpaid prostitute, and be free to murder our unborn babies if we fall pregnant. Women can also compete in the business world by using their bodies to promote commercial commodities. At the end of the day we will be regarded as a truly ‘liberated’ woman... Look at the glossy cover of any magazine or advertisements on TV and newspaper, you will find that most of these advertisements have scantily dressed women in alluring poses to attract the attention of men. This proves that the Western society considers woman only as a sex symbol.
There are many guys who just date us for having sex. They just love our bodies for nights. I am really curious to know your opinion. Why do we let men look at our naked bodies and satisfy their desires? Do you enjoy when they praises our attractive bodies? What does it give us? If they ask us for all the money we have got, we probably do not pay them anything. But when they ask us for a one night stand sex, we may accept. Is the value of our bodies less than money?
What do you think? Do men only want us for our bodies? Have your boyfriends left you after sleeping with you or after you got pregnant?


I think some guys see women that way, or they're just numb to their feelings and the sex act is just physical to them, it's less personalized for them in a way. Or maybe there are deeper psychological reasons why they are womanizers, you never know.

But other guys are intensely loyal and monogamous too, but think don't attract as much public discussion as much.

Also some women like the attention they get in general from society (from both men and women) with flashy clothes and things that look fashionable and trendy and sexy.


I think social issues need to stay away from polarizing language of "what do we gain and what do we lose" type of talk. I think if equality is truly what you seek in a discussion on an issue or movement, you gotta start from a neutral place.

Also the truth about does beauty matter? Is that yeah it probably does, but attractive males also have a leg up in business as well, and employers are also realizing that whomever they employ, they better know how to do their job or it hurts their profit motive.

Unless you're a brothel, your business will fail without skills, and the world cannot operate on prostitution and entertainment, and advertising jobs alone.


Be true to yourself, know thy self, and choose what you want to do in life provided that it doesn't cause harm to others.


P.S. Let me also add that just because you show skin, doesn't necessarily mean it is meant to be a sexual turn on either because that is a type of communication that depends on at least 2 people.

A perv can get turned on from just about anything, but that's all in their head, skewed perception or not. It's how THEY are reading the situation, not necessarily what you are conveying.

[Left Now]

Well,If you ask me I would say look what many ladies were before 19th century in Europe mostly:A slave to one person,like it or not.Now look what most of them are these days:A slave to many ones,like it or not.

Both terrible,both disrespectful.

I hate when many men get four eyes when seeing a lady passing in front of them and say such things that I do not like to say here because even thinking about them make me feel that I am insulting you and others,so I will mostly blame men for it.However,still generalizing all men in this matter is not right,but I agree with you that their view toward women are as stupid as unright.

AliceParks

[WanderingHeart]

She's not generalizing all guys. She said 'most guys' and 'many men'.

But it is disgusting how many guys do such a thing...

[Uniquemind]

She's not generalizing all guys. She said 'most guys' and 'many men'.

But it is disgusting how many guys do such a thing...

That's fair.

I will also add that it is sad.

But I also want to say there exist girls who are out who see guys as sexual conquests too, so those types of girls and guys should just meet up and have a good time.

I think the tragedy comes when someone engages in something they feel pressured or manipulated into doing.

[Ridonks_CB]

Of course it's not all guys, it doesn't really need to be said either because it should be implied through common sense.

I think the large impact the media has made on society is a HUGE contributor to this issue. You see commercials that become very sexualized for the most unsexy things (hamburgers, cat food, shampoo, etc..), ads like this http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-fb6rT2OJrwY/UvK745pSj3I/AAAAAAAAABU/jIBp2gFPOiw/s1600/Dolce-Gabbana-Ad-Sexist.jpg, and men are often told they are not allowed to be "weaker than a woman" thus they create a mindset that they must overpower them and it's okay to flirt and play with them because hey, women weren't put on the planet to keep life going, but to give sexual pleasure instead. Go humanity, yay.
In summary, yes, many guys do see girls as sexual objects, though as someone above had said - many girls do also enjoy the attention. Girls aren't as innocent either, prostitutes (obviously not the ones forced into it) go from person to person not necessarily for sexual pleasure overall but for money. By many we're not seen as people like them, just someone you can bang and leave just like that. The world's pretty messed up.

[PinkFloyd]

It's 1:45 AM and I'm not all here mentally so bare with me here... It might get bumpy when I respond to this.

Anyways, this is how I see it. Human beings generally like sex and therefor have physical attraction. Physical attraction in the form of beauty is a positive thing. (what other forms of physical attraction are there?) Human beings also generally like money. So what's the reason for that Pepsi commercial having an attractive woman in it? Because it makes the product appeal to people and bring in cash flow. Are you going to buy a can of Pepsi if you see a commercial with a middle-aged overweight person slumped half awake in a chair watching TV at 2:30 in the morning drinking Pepsi? My guess is no, you're more likely to buy it if you see an ad with a group of young, fit people having fun socializing with each other while drinking Pepsi outside when it's sunny and nice

Another thing... About men using women for sex; yes, it happens and it's very unfortunate but it's just a fact of life. People like sex. Since men are people, guess what? They also like sex. That's not to say that every man that likes sex is going to use a woman for it. I like many teenage boys like sex. That's super fucking obvious though. Does it mean I'm going to exploit girls into doin the nasty with me? No. A main factor in determining that is whether or not that man has compassion. If he has compassion, he will grow attached to a woman emotionally and then make that gradual step towards physical intimacy. The moral here is to not make generalities. Some men are pigs that use women for sex and other men are genuinely good hearted and don't do that. Also, Pepsi is good.

[Uniquemind]

It's 1:45 AM and I'm not all here mentally so bare with me here... It might get bumpy when I respond to this.

Anyways, this is how I see it. Human beings generally like sex and therefor have physical attraction. Physical attraction in the form of beauty is a positive thing. (what other forms of physical attraction are there?) Human beings also generally like money. So what's the reason for that Pepsi commercial having an attractive woman in it? Because it makes the product appeal to people and bring in cash flow. Are you going to buy a can of Pepsi if you see a commercial with a middle-aged overweight person slumped half awake in a chair watching TV at 2:30 in the morning drinking Pepsi? My guess is no, you're more likely to buy it if you see an ad with a group of young, fit people having fun socializing with each other while drinking Pepsi outside when it's sunny and nice

Another thing... About men using women for sex; yes, it happens and it's very unfortunate but it's just a fact of life. People like sex. Since men are people, guess what? They also like sex. That's not to say that every man that likes sex is going to use a woman for it. I like many teenage boys like sex. That's super fucking obvious though. Does it mean I'm going to exploit girls into doin the nasty with me? No. A main factor in determining that is whether or not that man has compassion. If he has compassion, he will grow attached to a woman emotionally and then make that gradual step towards physical intimacy. The moral here is to not make generalities. Some men are pigs that use women for sex and other men are genuinely good hearted and don't do that. Also, Pepsi is good.


Yeah but there's also been a trend of internet self-made celebrities who have made a living off of sitting in front of a webcam eating food....they aren't necessarily attractive but they get enough constant donations to the point where they do not have to work.

So go figure that one out.

If anything humans are inconsistent and hypocritical.

[Miserabilia]

All heterosexual men look at women in a sexual way because that's the point of having a sexuality. Everyone that's not asexual judges people and decide if they could be a potential mate. It's natural, the only thing society determines is to what extent people can show it. For example, it was more acceptable for men to show it than women, nowadays there's not a lot of difference though.

[WanderingHeart]

Yes but if a man is seen looking at other women as a sexual object, makes comments about women in that way, etc. People see it as okay because its 'perfectly normal for men to act this way'

However when a woman says or does one thing, or even if she got forced into sex--
She's a slut.

[Stronk Serb]

Well,If you ask me I would say look what many ladies were before 19th century in Europe mostly:A slave to one person,like it or not.Now look what most of them are these days:A slave to many ones,like it or not.

Both terrible,both disrespectful.

I hate when many men get four eyes when seeing a lady passing in front of them and say such things that I do not like to say here because even thinking about them make me feel that I am insulting you and others,so I will mostly blame men for it.However,still generalizing all men in this matter is not right,but I agree with you that their view toward women are as stupid as unright.

AliceParks

This pretty much. We went from one extreme to the other.

[Uniquemind]

Yes but if a man is seen looking at other women as a sexual object, makes comments about women in that way, etc. People see it as okay because its 'perfectly normal for men to act this way'

However when a woman says or does one thing, or even if she got forced into sex--
She's a slut.

This is true, but I think we're at a cusp of realizing the hypocrisy of that double standard and our generation is BEGINNING (it's a slow process) to change this perception.

There's a lot of love for "sluts" nowadays that couldn't be openly discussed before.



This pretty much. We went from one extreme to the other.


I've noticed that social movements putting the spotlight on a social ill sometimes over-correct when they state their thesis and the ideal world that fixes whatever the issue was.

[Left Now]

This pretty much. We went from one extreme to the other.

In Farsi we call it : "Efrat va Tafrit" (افراط و تفریط)

Means "Extreme and Extreme".Well actually they both mean extreme but on different sides of a matter.

[Ridonks_CB]

Men aren't the only ones to blame; many women see sex as a chance to get money or whatever. Both genders and a lot of people are at fault in this world.

[Uniquemind]

Men aren't the only ones to blame; many women see sex as a chance to get money or whatever. Both genders and a lot of people are at fault in this world.

Also Guy A's advances and flirtations for a girl might be welcomed but Guy B's might be seen as creepy objectification simply because the girl has a bias herself for the attention of Guy A.

So a lot of it is subjective too.

[Mil1dreded]

The way I see it humans are attracted to eachother it's a primal instinct if I happen to think a girl is hot and try and flirt with her I'm not objectifying her and I have full respect for women it's just natural to look women do it as much as men as long as you don't cross any lines then I don't think there is a problem

[Jason The Great]

That's not true...

[Miss Understood]

I have a rule about judging. I don't judge or make stereotypes or generalisations without prior knowledge. It is all to easy to hate a person because your friends don't like them. I have made it known that I will take my friends side if they are in the right in an argument or hatred session and if I don't agree I will simply withhold comment. Either way this does not influence my opinion on the other person. Having only just moved to a mixed school this year after five years of an all girls school I am not the most experienced with boys. My opinion on this is that you may have had many experiences of men treating women as sexual objects but this does not mean you have experienced the whole of mankind doing that. I do not agree with you feelings of all men being misogynistic but I can understand it must be harmful to your idea of men to experience so much sexism. What I feel like I must comment is that in the entire span of history women have only been seen as equal as men for a short span of time. I am not saying that justifies the misogyny because it does not it any way- nothing does. I am trying to say that it is hard to eradicate a way of thinking that has been conditioned into men for millennia.

[Microcosm]

It's natural, really. Not to look at women as objects but to list towards a women is totally normal and some people just largely over do it.

[rossn246]

For a lot of men, that's all they want. Girls go for the guys who only want sex. I know this because my friend sleeps around a lot just to never talk to the girl again, yet girls still want him. I however want a meaningful relationship but it seems nearly impossible to find.

[Uniquemind]

For a lot of men, that's all they want. Girls go for the guys who only want sex. I know this because my friend sleeps around a lot just to never talk to the girl again, yet girls still want him. I however want a meaningful relationship but it seems nearly impossible to find.

Other factors might be at play there.

Sometimes seeing someone else desire X makes the others around them mentally perceive X as more desirable for themselves because someone else expressed interest.

This dynamic has also been shown to be present in human babies, when they are placed together in the same room with the multiple copies of identical toys.

The first baby grabbed one of the toys in that study, and the second baby tried to take the toy away from the first baby DESPITE identical toys being available to the second baby.

[dubsteppredator]

I might look at a girl with a nice body, but it doesn't mean I want marry them or something. If she was nice and had a personality I might, but she was a mean than no

[Zenos]

American society is screwed up,on one hand they teach teens and 20 somethings to respect each other and their bodies and yet on the other hand American society teaches us to sexualize each others body and it's went to the point that most people male or female seem to have no dignity and respect for the human body!

And yet when someone tries to tell people this and that people should have respect for their bodies and have some dignity about themselves ,those people get mouthed at and told they are prudes!

[stism]

There had better be a lot more to you than just your body, cause you're going to lose that sex appeal,and it might happen to you very soon, too. Many women never really have much, if any, and most have lost it by age 30 or their first child.

[Uniquemind]

Biological reproductive imperative is also probably at play here too.


Men and even some women are at a primal level really trying to reproduce and vary up their genetic variability of their offspring.


Part of me is curious if all stigma of reproduction out of wedlock was taken away, and all birth control was taken away and having babies was glorified, what would society look like?

Assume food and medical services are never lacking.

[BlueFoot]

I am just obsessed with this question. Do we enjoy when men want us only for our bodies? Do we enjoy showing them our bodies and attractions?
Today in some societies, particularly in the West we can walk semi-naked in public, swim topless, patronize bars and clubs, smoke, drink, dance in discos and have sex with anybody we feel like. We can even serve our boyfriends, like an unpaid prostitute, and be free to murder our unborn babies if we fall pregnant. Women can also compete in the business world by using their bodies to promote commercial commodities. At the end of the day we will be regarded as a truly ‘liberated’ woman... Look at the glossy cover of any magazine or advertisements on TV and newspaper, you will find that most of these advertisements have scantily dressed women in alluring poses to attract the attention of men. This proves that the Western society considers woman only as a sex symbol.
There are many guys who just date us for having sex. They just love our bodies for nights. I am really curious to know your opinion. Why do we let men look at our naked bodies and satisfy their desires? Do you enjoy when they praises our attractive bodies? What does it give us? If they ask us for all the money we have got, we probably do not pay them anything. But when they ask ud for a one night stand sex, we may accept. Is the value of our bodies less than money?
What do you think? Do men only want us for our bodies? Have your boyfriends left you after sleeping with you or after you got pregnant?

For me I hate those guys, I've actually slugged a few guys in the head a couple times for saying that kind of shit.

[Uniquemind]

Actually I have noticed a fallacy in the OP.


Just because lots of advertisements show or emphasize physical beauty, doesn't mean Western society "only" considers women or men as sex symbols, or that all their value resides in being a sex symbol.


Rather it argues that sexuality is a very powerful factor in attraction and a chance at reproduction with one's desired mate.

The other questions assume everyone puts the same importance or emotional meaning behind sex as everyone else which isn't true.


Some would view sex as something non-personal, and a physical act of mutual massage that just feels good but isn't so different from any other touch. Any special importance upon the act has to do with logistical questions of pregnancy, STI's and STD's, and culture regarding sex's sacredness or lack thereof.

[sweettayla]

Ultimately they do, though in a primal sense, they're looking at our qualities more as a mother in order to pass on their genes. In less educated times a woman with bigger boobs could obviously produce more milk to nurture a child, bigger hips meant we'd be able to give birth more easily....

[Uniquemind]

Ultimately they do, though in a primal sense, they're looking at our qualities more as a mother in order to pass on their genes. In less educated times a woman with bigger boobs could obviously produce more milk to nurture a child, bigger hips meant we'd be able to give birth more easily....

It's kind of funny when you think about it in a nerdy way.

Liking the way someone looks physically translates to this: I like the way your DNA protein sequences built your body, I think it would be compatible with my DNA protein sequences > attraction.

[Benelli]

Not necessarily. Sure, guys like looking at a nice body, and some will act on that and treat you different because of this, but not all.

Females are the same way. We see a guy that fits into our "type", and we take interest. Some more than others. Such as most females foaming at the mouth over Magic Mike. Both genders are guilty of treating the other as a "sexual object." Most males that treat females as such are more open about it and will show the extent of their sexual interest in a female, which is why we notice it more in men than in women. But women are just bad. We just keep it on the down low for the most part and tell our friends how hot the guy down the street is, and so on.

[Uniquemind]

Not necessarily. Sure, guys like looking at a nice body, and some will act on that and treat you different because of this, but not all.

Females are the same way. We see a guy that fits into our "type", and we take interest. Some more than others. Such as most females foaming at the mouth over Magic Mike. Both genders are guilty of treating the other as a "sexual object." Most males that treat females as such are more open about it and will show the extent of their sexual interest in a female, which is why we notice it more in men than in women. But women are just bad. We just keep it on the down low for the most part and tell our friends how hot the guy down the street is, and so on.

Yup. That and possibly the culture of slut shaming tampers down girls ability to express lust and attraction openly toward guys.


It'd be interesting social experiment if socially it was okay to openly express these things toward guys if girls behavior would change and be less subtle.


But it's also worth noting there is a difference between being attracted and being aroused and "in heat" for a guy if you're a girl.

Hence why Viagra doesn't work on women the same way it does for men.


There's a separation in arousal, attraction, sexual mood hunger, and bodily reaction down below that is all streamline for men.

[Professional Russian]

Very rarely do I debate anymore but I'll get into this one. I hate this.d I hate it sp much. Yes most guys want to use you for sex. Its what we're programmed to do. Its just the way we are and we've glorified to the point where of a guys fucking a girl he's automatically the shot and shes a slut which really pisses me off because the girl may have loved him enough to do that and look how she gets treated? Its fucking bullshit. If ypu asked me I'd tell ypu I want relationship where I can connect with the person and really love them not just sex. Sex is really the last thing on my mind when I'm talking to a girl but other guys are all about sex its all they want. They dont want love. They dont want anything but sex and that pisses me off to. This whole topic is fucked up and so overly glorified its not even funny. I pretty much gave up on most other guys to talk to them about a relationship because they dont get it. They just want to fuck. I slammed a kids head against the wall because he said he'd fuck my best friend. Its just fucked #rantover

[Body odah Man]

God, I wish I could say no. Sadly I must say yes. Sorry. It's fucked up, IK, but we guys are fucked up.

[Uniquemind]

Very rarely do I debate anymore but I'll get into this one. I hate this.d I hate it sp much. Yes most guys want to use you for sex. Its what we're programmed to do. Its just the way we are and we've glorified to the point where of a guys fucking a girl he's automatically the shot and shes a slut which really pisses me off because the girl may have loved him enough to do that and look how she gets treated? Its fucking bullshit. If ypu asked me I'd tell ypu I want relationship where I can connect with the person and really love them not just sex. Sex is really the last thing on my mind when I'm talking to a girl but other guys are all about sex its all they want. They dont want love. They dont want anything but sex and that pisses me off to. This whole topic is fucked up and so overly glorified its not even funny. I pretty much gave up on most other guys to talk to them about a relationship because they dont get it. They just want to fuck. I slammed a kids head against the wall because he said he'd fuck my best friend. Its just fucked #rantover

I disagree with this.

Guys want sex yes, but I think there comes a point where they want a relationship too, it's just most guys want variety.

But girls can be the same way, maybe not always for physical looks reasons, but for emotional experiences or worldly experiences they want variety too.

Both genders in some of the most recent studies have a 60% cheating rate.

Women are better at hiding infidelity though.

[Unlucky]

-----

[Yolo its Millie]

Im ok with guys just wanting the sex really, but I am kind of new to the sex thing. I mean if a boy wants to put his dick in me then because he likes my body why not.

[Silicate Wielder]

To be honest, I think both genders look at each other at times as sexual objects, it's just how nature works, but guys seem to have a higher tendancy to do so, or are more forthcoming with it.

And I get what your saying millie, if someone were to say they wanted to have sex with me because of my body, i'd take it as a compliment, but that still doesn't necessarily mean i'm gonna have sex with that person.

[ClaraWho]

Im ok with guys just wanting the sex really, but I am kind of new to the sex thing. I mean if a boy wants to put his dick in me then because he likes my body why not.

Do you really only value yourself as a sex toy? I hope with that attitude you at least use protection. It's your life, and you'll make whatever mistakes you want, but I'm sure everyone else here will agree that you'll regret it when you are older.

Sex can be special if you let it, most intimate ways of showing love, if you give your body to any boy who just wants sex - it will lose that meaning and quality. Also massively increased risk of sexually transmitted infections, they probably sleep around with random girls all the time.

There's nothing special about sexual acts. Any animal with genitals can have sex. It's not grown up/mature and it's not something to be done just for fun.

~ Clara

[Uniquemind]

Do you really only value yourself as a sex toy? I hope with that attitude you at least use protection. It's your life, and you'll make whatever mistakes you want, but I'm sure everyone else here will agree that you'll regret it when you are older.

Sex can be special if you let it, most intimate ways of showing love, if you give your body to any boy who just wants sex - it will lose that meaning and quality. Also massively increased risk of sexually transmitted infections, they probably sleep around with random girls all the time.

There's nothing special about sexual acts. Any animal with genitals can have sex. It's not grown up/mature and it's not something to be done just for fun.

~ Clara


Maybe she's an outlier though.

While on the whole what you said is true, there exist people (male or female) who have the complete ability in their minds to treat sex as a physical act of pleasure and thrill seeking without bad emotional ties or side affects. For them sex is almost like a sport.

These types of people sometimes often become sex workers or part of the adult industry. But nobody talks about the empowered female sex workers out there partly because there's a stigma around such a career so only the negative is highlighted.


Now the STD/STI thing is a real problem she needs to be careful with that, and such illnesses can affect nerve endings (thus the ability to feel pleasure in the future) as well as fertility, and her very life.

[ClaraWho]

Maybe she's an outlier though.

While on the whole what you said is true, there exist people (male or female) who have the complete ability in their minds to treat sex as a physical act of pleasure and thrill seeking without bad emotional ties or side affects. For them sex is almost like a sport.

These types of people sometimes often become sex workers or part of the adult industry. But nobody talks about the empowered female sex workers out there partly because there's a stigma around such a career so only the negative is highlighted.


Now the STD/STI thing is a real problem she needs to be careful with that, and such illnesses can affect nerve endings (thus the ability to feel pleasure in the future) as well as fertility, and her very life.

I think you misconstrued the point. It is her life and if she wants to pursue this that is her own freedom to do so, but there are psychological repercussions she should be aware of. There are psychopaths who are detached from emotion and purely operate on needs, but complete psychopathy is rare in general society.

I pitched the alternative of how it CAN be something special, not that it MUST be kept that way. It's just once you've gone the whole 'sex as a sport' way, the other option is almost entirely lost.

'Empowered female sex workers' is an oxymoron. Most females in the sex trade experienced sexual abuse/rape that led them into the trade. It's a horrific cycle. I can dig up some medical journal sources if you'd like, but I do find it all rather upsetting...

Stay safe, stay happy. Think for the future.

~ Clara

[Uniquemind]

I think you misconstrued the point. It is her life and if she wants to pursue this that is her own freedom to do so, but there are psychological repercussions she should be aware of. There are psychopaths who are detached from emotion and purely operate on needs, but complete psychopathy is rare in general society.

I pitched the alternative of how it CAN be something special, not that it MUST be kept that way. It's just once you've gone the whole 'sex as a sport' way, the other option is almost entirely lost.

'Empowered female sex workers' is an oxymoron. Most females in the sex trade experienced sexual abuse/rape that led them into the trade. It's a horrific cycle. I can dig up some medical journal sources if you'd like, but I do find it all rather upsetting...

Stay safe, stay happy. Think for the future.

~ Clara



Agreed.

Except for your last paragraph.

Because my point was any comment or belief intending to paint a picture of a majority or a minority about who enters the sex worker career, is a skewed study.


This is because even scientific journals who studied the psychological state of mind and home life among other reasons for people entering this job, is a skewed study and that's because women are afraid to come be interviewed so the sample is skewed, and the results are skewed.

Women who are sexually empowered and enter this career do so on the down low especially in countries where they fear social retaliation. (From friends, family).

The women who speak out against the industry and got a sour introduction into it probably have a motivation too speak out because they were manipulated into the job they didn't choose it entirely of their own free will in most cases.




You'll notice in the abstract and weaknesses of the study that it concedes almost every time that getting witnesses and interviewees for this topic is extremely hard.

[ClaraWho]

Agreed.

Except for your last paragraph.

Because my point was any comment or belief intending to paint a picture of a majority or a minority about who enters the sex worker career, is a skewed study.


This is because even scientific journals who studied the psychological state of mind and home life among other reasons for people entering this job, is a skewed study and that's because women are afraid to come be interviewed so the sample is skewed, and the results are skewed.

Women who are sexually empowered and enter this career do so on the down low especially in countries where they fear social retaliation. (From friends, family).

The women who speak out against the industry and got a sour introduction into it probably have a motivation too speak out because they were manipulated into the job they didn't choose it entirely of their own free will in most cases.




You'll notice in the abstract and weaknesses of the study that it concedes almost every time that getting witnesses and interviewees for this topic is extremely hard.

I don't think you have a very solid understanding of how psychological research and statistics are conducted. Your argument is that it's impossible to research the real reasons of this trade - yet you claim to know them without research.

Your argument that these 'sexually empowered' (what does that journalistic hyperbole even mean exactly?) is rendered equally invalid by your own counter argument.

If the research is conducted properly within the guidelines, it is the closest, most realistic representation of the available evidence.

I find it rather naïve (no offence) to think women who have been sexually abused are more likely to be willing to talk about it, than those who fear rejection by friends. It is estimated more abuse victims never report their abuse, than report it.

Secondly, for most it isn't an 'industry', it's just something they do on their own.

Sorry, you didn't provide a link to the single study you're referencing for me to read.

----

Also worried this may be straying too far off topic, but it is relevant to 'sexual objectification of women'.

~ Clara

[Uniquemind]

I don't think you have a very solid understanding of how psychological research and statistics are conducted. Your argument is that it's impossible to research the real reasons of this trade - yet you claim to know them without research.

Your argument that these 'sexually empowered' (what does that journalistic hyperbole even mean exactly?) is rendered equally invalid by your own counter argument.

If the research is conducted properly within the guidelines, it is the closest, most realistic representation of the available evidence.

I find it rather naïve (no offence) to think women who have been sexually abused are more likely to be willing to talk about it, than those who fear rejection by friends. It is estimated more abuse victims never report their abuse, than report it.

Secondly, for most it isn't an 'industry', it's just something they do on their own.

Sorry, you didn't provide a link to the single study you're referencing for me to read.

----

Also worried this may be straying too far off topic, but it is relevant to 'sexual objectification of women'.

~ Clara



I see your points I just don't have the time right now to find all these old articles I read years ago in the 1000's of bookmarks I have.

So I can't cite the sources sorry.

But I do agree that a lot of sexual assault cases and rapes go under reported.

But that's my point within this topic, because we don't have reports a lot of the numbers are fudged. They hit a truth but they are nowhere near enough data to take a policy or project assumptions onto other people. Everyone handles trauma differently and everyone has varying levels of what they are and aren't comfortable with at various points in time.


You can make your best estimate but the numbers need more sampling.

That's my general point.

---

"Sexually empowered" to me means understanding yourself as a sexual being, and not an object and the responsibility that comes with it. That it is both personal and also objectively viewed at by others to which you have no control how others see it, but you shake it off because what you do is what you've chosen, irrespective of outside forces and that no means no.

If you are leveraged or forced into something you don't want to do, that's not your fault and you should feel no shame period. Report it if legally necessary.



I was also using the word "industry" because almost all TV, billboard, internet ads, and other media even down to the designs of clothes have been argued to use sexualization to encourage sales and enable sexual objectification in society.

Taking it a step further are those who go into sex work, also an industry.

Now I should've said it earlier, but I do not place street walkers in the same category as those who have agents and go into escorting or a professional service which has safeguards.


I argue primarily this is where the objectification of women issue comes from and it's tied into the fact that sex sells.

[everlong]

Some men are like that, some aren't. I know I don't see women as objects.

[ClaraWho]

I see your points I just don't have the time right now to find all these old articles I read years ago in the 1000's of bookmarks I have.

So I can cite the sources sorry.

But I do agree that a lot of sexual assault cases and rapes go under reported.

But that's my point within this topic, because we don't have reports a lot of the numbers are fudged.


You can make your best estimate but the numbers need more sampling.

That's my general point.

Sorry, but you ignored my point on how your counter-argument invalidates itself, and how you cannot know the impossible.

I can't get a link on an external website (I use PsychInfo through my school) but there are literally hundreds of studies demonstrating a direct link between abuse and prostitution. One we left out as a precursor though is drug addiction!

The simple fact is nobody except psychopaths, as mentioned in my first reply, goes into prostitution with good mental health. It's just revictimisation and it's horrible.

But back on topic!

----

What creeps me out most is when older guys, often when they've had a drink, will openly stare at young teens bodies :/. I'd say more guys are that perverted than otherwise, and it irritates the heck out of me.

~ Clara

[Uniquemind]

Sorry, but you ignored my point on how your counter-argument invalidates itself, and how you cannot know the impossible.

I can't get a link on an external website (I use PsychInfo through my school) but there are literally hundreds of studies demonstrating a direct link between abuse and prostitution. One we left out as a precursor though is drug addiction!

The simple fact is nobody except psychopaths, as mentioned in my first reply, goes into prostitution with good mental health. It's just revictimisation and it's horrible.

But back on topic!

----

What creeps me out most is when older guys, often when they've had a drink, will openly stare at young teens bodies :/. I'd say more guys are that perverted than otherwise, and it irritates the heck out of me.

~ Clara



Right you can't know the impossible.

But I also never denied a link between abuse and prostitution, I'm just saying that link doesn't mean that's the case for everybody.

It instead depends on the specifics of what that person feels, and how they see the world in relation to themselves.

Again I mentioned early on such a person would be an outlier.

Oh geez "good mental health" is vague terminology you have to concede that. Lots of people have issues of not being raised right or whatever.

The concept of there being an arbitrary concept of "normal" creates paradigms which makes people feel inflated ego, or put down. The issue I argue is if you are respected and if you ultimately feel in control of your own choices and consequences. Everyone else can lay off the judgement provided that you are being safe.


P.S. People are basically animals when it comes to finding a mate and judging reproductive value. Society had tried to romanticize it, but I call it what it is.


Guys can be creepy, and tend to be sloppy at showing it. But girls are also just as bad, sometimes possessive too, but they hide it better but conversations about really hot guys among girlfriends reveal an equally carnal undertone to humanity.

But I get what you mean, it's that 6th sense, when a guy approaches you or is looking at you or says the wrong thing during their attempt to pick you up that just triggers alarm bells. Knowing when to pay attention to those gut instincts is something your naturally good at for some really precocious people, and others it comes by experience.

[Tesserax]

To be honest, it depends on how the woman sells herself. When I see a very sexually attractive woman, that's the first thing I think about: Sex. However, when I get to know a girl, if she is attractive I do want that, but if she's nice then I want that too. If a girl is not that attractive, I still want that (as it's a natural human instinct), as long as she is nice with a good personality. But if a girl has only appearance, then it's 100% about the sex

[ClaraWho]

Right you can't know the impossible.

But I also never denied a link between abuse and prostitution, I'm just saying that link doesn't mean that's the case for everybody.

It instead depends on the specifics of what that person feels, and how they see the world in relation to themselves.

Again I mentioned early on such a person would be an outlier.

Oh geez "good mental health" is vague terminology you have to concede that. Lots of people have issues of not being raised right or whatever.

The concept of there being an arbitrary concept of "normal" creates paradigms which makes people feel inflated ego, or put down. The issue I argue is if you are respected and if you ultimately feel in control of your own choices and consequences. Everyone else can lay off the judgement provided that you are being safe.


P.S. People are basically animals when it comes to finding a mate and judging reproductive value. Society had tried to romanticize it, but I call it what it is.


Guys can be creepy, and tend to be sloppy at showing it. But girls are also just as bad, sometimes possessive too, but they hide it better but conversations about really hot guys among girlfriends reveal an equally carnal undertone to humanity.

But I get what you mean, it's that 6th sense, when a guy approaches you or is looking at you or says the wrong thing during their attempt to pick you up that just triggers alarm bells. Knowing when to pay attention to those gut instincts is something your naturally good at for some really precocious people, and others it comes by experience.

No, what you are trying to claim is that it's not the case for everyone. When all the evidence points the opposite direction, and you bring no proof to the table. It's the sort of 'yeah, but I'm disagreeing based on my own opinion, and you should accept that' mentality.

The issue is, the world view and neurological programming makes it always a negative experience in the long run. Those who purely sleep around for fun are known to demonstrate risk-taking behaviour, and live short, regret filled lives.

'Good mental health' is rather vague I suppose, but it is a general catch all term. I'll distil it further to, 'mentally healthy'. This meaning that the 4 D's of mental health disorder are not significant enough to warrant intervention. Distress, Deviance, Dsyfunction and Danger (as categorised with diagnostic parameters in the DSM-V or ICD).

I'm not speaking in terms of social acceptability, I'm speaking from a clinical perspective. Thus leaving aside moral objections to right or wrong factors involved.

----

Fortuitously a lot of us have evolved out of our 'ID' cave dweller States of carnal lust, and evolved to great levels of social interaction and courtship. But others brains are deficient, either biologically or through poor education and role models.

To others taking the time to read this, do guys feel as uncomfortable being creepily stared at by older women? Or do they not experience this as much?

Would be really interesting to know!

~ Clara

[Kirina]

Conversations about really hot guys among girlfriends reveal an equally carnal undertone to humanity
When I'm with my guy friends, they don't hold anything back. It's not like "We can't rate girls now, because she's here".

What I've noticed is the guys (at least those I'm friends with).
The main requirement is a decent face and that the girl is not fat (lil chubby being okay). Ass, boobs. Those are just bonuses.
However, small boobs and a flat ass is not necessarily "bad". They think of that as more cute, bigger as more sexy and sexy being the aspect that appeals to them more.

My girl friends. Don't want fat, don't want skinny, don't want chubby. Only ripped (not just their upper body, everything has to be toned. Even the butt) and a decent face. Already these requirements are more demanding.

As for penis size, a big one is just a bonus (although they talk about it way more than my guy friends talk about boobs or ass). Also while small boobs to the guys wasn't necessarily bad and had their own positive aspects to it. My girl friends think a small dick is bad, with no positive aspects. It's just something they have to "put up with", because they like the guy.

So between my friends, the girls are by far the more shallow ones.
Also notice the same with people I chat with online. The guys often is similar to my guy friends, and the girls often similar to my girl friends.
I'm starting to think that it actually is the case that girls care more about looks about than guys do.

[Uniquemind]

No, what you are trying to claim is that it's not the case for everyone. When all the evidence points the opposite direction, and you bring no proof to the table. It's the sort of 'yeah, but I'm disagreeing based on my own opinion, and you should accept that' mentality.

The issue is, the world view and neurological programming makes it always a negative experience in the long run. Those who purely sleep around for fun are known to demonstrate risk-taking behaviour, and live short, regret filled lives.

'Good mental health' is rather vague I suppose, but it is a general catch all term. I'll distil it further to, 'mentally healthy'. This meaning that the 4 D's of mental health disorder are not significant enough to warrant intervention. Distress, Deviance, Dsyfunction and Danger (as categorised with diagnostic parameters in the DSM-V or ICD).

I'm not speaking in terms of social acceptability, I'm speaking from a clinical perspective. Thus leaving aside moral objections to right or wrong factors involved.

----

Fortuitously a lot of us have evolved out of our 'ID' cave dweller States of carnal lust, and evolved to great levels of social interaction and courtship. But others brains are deficient, either biologically or through poor education and role models.

To others taking the time to read this, do guys feel as uncomfortable being creepily stared at by older women? Or do they not experience this as much?

Would be really interesting to know!

~ Clara

My point is correlation is not necessarily causation.

Risk-taking behavior generally, (not promiscuity as a single behavior trait alone) is responsible for shortened lives, STD/STI transference etc.

One CAN be with 100's of partners, not be part of drug or alcohol culture, screen their partners for STD's and lead a happy and full life once they find Mr. Or Mrs. Right.

That's what I'm saying.


You are trying to Box and define an argument's parameters with the DSM's definitions of the 4 D's, but promiscuity fails to be dangerous as long as one is careful.



Now perhaps we need to narrow our definition of "promiscuity" here between us.

I'm using the definition that having casual sex and having a high number of partners is promiscuity, but if your understanding of it is getting with people you aren't vetting for a thrill without any precaution to your health then yeah that's dangerous and I'd agree with you.

I think you misconstrued the point. It is her life and if she wants to pursue this that is her own freedom to do so, but there are psychological repercussions she should be aware of. There are psychopaths who are detached from emotion and purely operate on needs, but complete psychopathy is rare in general society.

I pitched the alternative of how it CAN be something special, not that it MUST be kept that way. It's just once you've gone the whole 'sex as a sport' way, the other option is almost entirely lost.

'Empowered female sex workers' is an oxymoron. Most females in the sex trade experienced sexual abuse/rape that led them into the trade. It's a horrific cycle. I can dig up some medical journal sources if you'd like, but I do find it all rather upsetting...

Stay safe, stay happy. Think for the future.

~ Clara


There are a lot of sex workers who should NOT be in the career they're in because they don't enter the career for their love of it, but rather for the money due to circumstance or they got psychological issues regarding their identity or sexual power dynamics.

You won't find argument from me here.


You know it would be really interesting to see a long term comprehensive study done to track the views and opinions of those born after 2000, to see their views on sex and self-confidence and regret or no regret as they age from teen to elderly with the advent of social media, camera phones, and social media.


I think meaning in a relationship is tied to the bond you have with the person, and if it's exclusive that should be discussed, but if it's not good sex at the end of the day is good sex because it's a physical (sport) like thing.

It's all in the head and a matter of perspective.

Maybe I reacted too strongly to this topic and I apologize. I think I felt personally attacked by the status quo of belief.

[ClaraWho]

My point is correlation is not necessarily causation.

Risk-taking behavior generally, (not promiscuity as a single behavior trait alone) is responsible for shortened lives, STD/STI transference etc.

One CAN be with 100's of partners, not be part of drug or alcohol culture, screen their partners for STD's and lead a happy and full life once they find Mr. Or Mrs. Right.

That's what I'm saying.


You are trying to Box and define an argument's parameters with the DSM's definitions of the 4 D's, but promiscuity fails to be dangerous as long as one is careful.



Now perhaps we need to narrow our definition of "promiscuity" here between us.

I'm using the definition that having casual sex and having a high number of partners is promiscuity, but if your understanding of it is getting with people you aren't vetting for a thrill without any precaution to your health then yeah that's dangerous and I'd agree with you.




There are a lot of sex workers who should NOT be in the career they're in because they don't enter the career for their love of it, but rather for the money due to circumstance or they got psychological issues regarding their identity or sexual power dynamics.

You won't find argument from me here.


You know it would be really interesting to see a long term comprehensive study done to track the views and opinions of those born after 2000, to see their views on sex and self-confidence and regret or no regret as they age from teen to elderly with the advent of social media, camera phones, and social media.


I think meaning in a relationship is tied to the bond you have with the person, and if it's exclusive that should be discussed, but if it's not good sex at the end of the day is good sex because it's a physical (sport) like thing.

It's all in the head and a matter of perspective.

Maybe I reacted too strongly to this topic and I apologize. I think I felt personally attacked by the status quo of belief.

Sorry, but I find the manner in which you have conducted yourself in this debate to be highly disrespectful, consequently I am terminating my involvement in this discussion with you. Passionate argument is completely acceptable, but it appears you haven't given my points due attention. You don't have to agree with anything I say, but acknowledging my points and replying to them is just basic respect. If one is simply going to bulldoze through personal unsubstantiated opinion, it's all rather a waste of time.

Have a good day.

~ Clara

[Uniquemind]

Sorry, but I find the manner in which you have conducted yourself in this debate to be highly disrespectful, consequently I am terminating my involvement in this discussion with you. Passionate argument is completely acceptable, but it appears you haven't given my points due attention. You don't have to agree with anything I say, but acknowledging my points and replying to them is just basic respect. If one is simply going to bulldoze through personal unsubstantiated opinion, it's all rather a waste of time.

Have a good day.

~ Clara

That's fine, I think we're at an impasse anyway.

I will however urge you to reference back here if I do find some scientific journaled arguments that lend credence to my side of the argument.

You don't want opinion, you only want scientific facts and discussion off those facts as valid conversation or respectful passionate debate.

I can't operate under a strict discussion parameter like that.

It isn't that I intend to disrespect you, it's just I can't only let what gets published or not published in science journals define how I see people and life especially in the realm of psychology and even some biological sciences.

Example:
(Hahaha hydrogenated oils like margarine being better for you than butter is what doctors told patients, now it's the complete reverse policy).

Doctors are supposed to be reading up on the latest and greatest double-blind scientific studies...however this fell threw the cracks.

[Yolo its Millie]

Maybe she's an outlier though.

While on the whole what you said is true, there exist people (male or female) who have the complete ability in their minds to treat sex as a physical act of pleasure and thrill seeking without bad emotional ties or side affects. For them sex is almost like a sport.

These types of people sometimes often become sex workers or part of the adult industry. But nobody talks about the empowered female sex workers out there partly because there's a stigma around such a career so only the negative is highlighted.


Now the STD/STI thing is a real problem she needs to be careful with that, and such illnesses can affect nerve endings (thus the ability to feel pleasure in the future) as well as fertility, and her very life.

dam that sounds like me, Im really new to doing it, but just feel the need to do it.

[Uniquemind]

dam that sounds like me, Im really new to doing it, but just feel the need to do it.

Well that's normal.

I think before you continue doing such things you need to understand how others will perceive you, and when word gets out that you put out, (guys gossip horribly) you need to be mindful of your health and reputation.



You also need to self-analysis and try to figure out what is so thrilling about doing what your doing. The easy answer is you have a high sex drive, but that's normal for young people like us.

Are you doing it for popularity? Are you doing it because being desirable is stroking your ego?


I do have to ask have you seen a doctor and gotten all checked out? If you contract an illness you may not have symptoms.


Have you taken precautions against pregnancy?

These are all things you need to ask yourself.