What is Europe?

[Vlerchan]

The European Union seeks to become a union of European states. However, in order to consider what this might entail, we must first deduce what a European state is. firstly, is it a space or is it a place? Is it a geographic area with a definite start and a definite end?: or is it something deeper, a set of qualities beyond existing inside a certain space?

I have more or less a definite answer to this, but I like to wait for people to offer answers first.

[Horatio Nelson]

When I think Erupoe, I think the coast of Portugal to the Russian border. Maybe to people that live in that area, Erupoe means something different, but that's how I see it.

[Vlerchan]

When I think Erupoe, I think the coast of Portugal to the Russian border.
Is there a reason for this?

Because that's what I'm trying to establish, the reasons we view things as we view them.

[EvanGr]

Well, according to etymology of the word, Europe(in greek, Εὐρώπη-in polytonic or Ευρώπη-in monotonic, is a female noun), comes from the adjective ευρής(evris, meaning wide) and οπή(opi, meaning eye). So, you may say it's a woman with wide eyes. There is also a myth, where Europa was in Crete, she was a very beatiful young girl. Zeus saw her and he transformed into a white bull, seduced her and took her away. Maybe that's what Europe is :-D :-D

Anyway, appart from all these, Europe is not the same when talking about Political Europe and Geographical Europe. Political Europe is West Europe, East Europe until Russia, maybe Kazakhstan, the Caucasus, Turkey(some believe it is, some are not, to say the truth, I don't really know whether it belongs or not) Cyprus and, of course, Israel. I think Political Europe is what matters regarding European Union.
But even when trying to see what Europe is, you realize that it is very different from place to place. We still seperate West and East Europe, why that? So, I finally believe it is very difficult to analyze what Europe is(Europe is the continent, europe is the EU, Europe is the Council of Europe, Europe is a lot of things).
Just see the extend of EU, from Martinique and Guadeloupe to Reunion. Is that Europe as well? Is French Guiana Europe? Well, according to EU, it is. There has also been a lot of people believing Canada should join EU, not only do they have much more in common with Europe than with USA, but they also are 300 miles away from a European(is it?) island, Island and also, a huge islang next to it was formely member of the EU, Greenland.

I think Europe is what we believe it is, not something prefixed. You saw and still see that for yourselves. Europe is what you feel, what you want it to be. If you want it to be the whole world, then so be it :-)

[Mil1dreded]

Well I think it's both being European is being born within the geographical area that is Europe however it goes further as most of Europe likes to see itself as a democratic freedom of speech equality for all kind of mindset where all Europeans believe they are accepting and kind people on the whole

[Left Now]

Well,in here Europe simply means anywhere which is beyond Turkey to French and Portuguese Coast plus Britannia,but when it's about EU,well that's a different matter.

[Vlerchan]

To my answer, I see countries as being European when holding the following characteristics:
A common historical foundation: Having been acted on by the, Classical Period, Middle Ages, Renaissance, Reformation, Counter-Reformation, Enlightenment, Colonialism, WWI & WWII, which results in:
A common intellectual-cultural heritage: Founded with that thinking of, first Greco-Roman philosophers, Roman-Catholic theologians, Enlightenment philosophers, and as combined in Modern human rights discourse, which results in a:
A common political culture: Summarised towards, Welfare-capitalism, liberal-democracy, Human rights, the Rule of Law, and Generalised anti-war sentiment, which founds the constructions of:
A common political will: Acting towards, a Kantian-inspired vision of a world who's disputes are governed peacefully through International Law.
It's another debate which countries happen to fit those criteria. I would venture towards The British Isles, Western Europe, Central Europe, and parts of Eastern Europe (exclude, Russia, Belarus, the Muslim south-Slavic countries, Turkey, etc.). However, the value-driven nature of Europe that I provided means that what Europe is finds itself in constant flux, so there's no reason it couldn't extend to all of Eastern Europe.

[Microcosm]

I think Europe is what we believe it is, not something prefixed. You saw and still see that for yourselves. Europe is what you feel, what you want it to be. If you want it to be the whole world, then so be it :-)

This is a great response in my opinion. Europe, politically speaking, isn't any predefined area or group of people who definitely all share some set of similar or identical opinions and beliefs.
To my answer, I see countries as being European when holding the following characteristics:
A common historical foundation: Having been acted on by the, Classical Period, Middle Ages, Renaissance, Reformation, Counter-Reformation, Enlightenment, Colonialism, WWI & WWII, which results in:
A common intellectual-cultural heritage: Founded with that thinking of, first Greco-Roman philosophers, Roman-Catholic theologians, Enlightenment philosophers, and as combined in Modern human rights discourse, which results in a:
A common political culture: Summarised towards, Welfare-capitalism, liberal-democracy, Human rights, the Rule of Law, and Generalised anti-war sentiment, which founds the constructions of:
A common political will: Acting towards, a Kantian-inspired vision of a world who's disputes are governed peacefully through International Law.
It's another debate which countries happen to fit those criteria. I would venture towards The British Isles, Western Europe, Central Europe, and parts of Eastern Europe (exclude, Russia, Belarus, the Muslim south-Slavic countries, Turkey, etc.). However, the value-driven nature of Europe that I provided means that what Europe is finds itself in constant flux, so there's no reason it couldn't extend to all of Eastern Europe.

This is also a great answer. However, it kind of ignores the idea that each individual person, city, state, etc tend to have differing opinions on what is "common political will" and "common political culture." There isn't really a set or fixed definition for what these things are. It's just speculation in the end. While this is a very well thought-out answer, I think there would be much disagreement with its practical implication.

Now, for my take on the question at hand.

There is, of course, the geographical definition of the borders of Europe which, if we had to find a solution that everyone would agree on, would probably be the practical solution which the different nations could come to an agreement with. Of course, political factors would have to come into play as well and some states might have to be excluded from the agreement, but that would be up to some sort of EU committee to decide.

[Vlerchan]

There isn't really a set or fixed definition for what these things are.
I made an attempt to provide a definition. The first five qualities I mention as part of 'political culture' is something that the EU requires countries to have as a perquisite to entrance. The sixth is something I'm open to disagreement on, though Europeans having a much lower tolerance for violence is something you can determine through empirical analysis. The described political will follows the political culture, and can be seen in the EUs engagements at an international level (even when it doesn't suit them, see Ukraine & Russia).

Of course, if it ever came to using this for practical purposes, then I suggest that the EU - or Council of Europe, or whichever institution - got all the brightest European historians, political scientists, political sociologists, etc. into a room, and had them come to some form of agreement - ignoring what I have to say - and then just move forward with that idea, even if there isn't Europe-wide consensus. I'm in favour of a value-driven definition of Europe, because I can't see a European project working out without a common set of values.

This is also a great answer.
Thanks, btw. It's something I've spent a while attempting to work out, so feedback is appreciated.

[Living For Love]

Like you said, I guess history in itself is something particularly important in order to distinguish European countries of non-European countries. For instance, I wouldn't consider Georgia or Azerbaijan European countries because they don't share much historic and cultural aspects with the generally considered "original European countries", as far as language and religion is concerned, for instance.

[Lovelife090994]

Culturally Europe is its own other world. I think of Europe from Iceland to Russia at the Ural Mountains. Why?
Because even though Russia is in Asia, the cultures are so different. Take The Americas, North, Central, and South, all connected geographically, but all culturally different from each other.

[fairmaiden]

I don't really know how to answer this :o
I thought there were about 50 countries in Europe; I don't even know anymore. My European geography skills suck.

[Stronk Serb]

From Scandinavia, Iceland and the Northern Sea to Gibraltar, Bosphor, the Dardanels, Sicily and Crete, from the Ural mountains, river Ural and the Caspian sea to the Atlantic, also I count Cyprus because there is a Greek majority over there and the Greek civilization is older than the Bible, plus they are one of the first European civilizations. That includes all people native (lived more than a 1000 years) to the place I described. If the EU would stop sucking it up to the US and start co-operating with Russia and East Asia, it would be closer to the idea of all Europeans living in peace. Maybe after decades of alliances and co-operation unite the EU with Russia and form the Eurasian Federation or something.

[Capto]

For me, Europe refers to areas that are culturally dominated by Slavic, Germanic, Celtic, Romance, Western Finno Ugric (Hungarian, Sami, Finnish, Estonian, Karelian, Ingrian, Vepsian), Hellenic, Albanian, and Baltic language speakers.

Due to geographical ties, and their historical tendencies to be represented by more traditional European states, I include the Turkic language of Gagauz, the Semitic language of Maltese, and the language isolate of Basque to be within the bounds of Europe.

Due to distinct identities in their own geographical peripheries, despite being occasionally included in other definitions of Europe, I exclude the Caucasian, Iranic, other Turkic, other Semitic, and eastern Finno-Ugric languages from this definition of Europe.

My reasoning for splitting the Finno-Ugric languages is purely geographical, though I suppose a case can be made for Erzya for reasons similar to those for the above three languages.


...the Muslim south-Slavic countries...

Funnily enough, in the Balkans, there is only one recognized South Slavic majority state that is majority-Muslim: Bosnia and Herzegovina. The other local Muslim-majority states (excluding Turkey) are principally ethnically Albanian, those being Albania and Kosovo (though with the latter in its cultural melting pot status of confused Kosovar identity I suppose a case can be made for having it be counted as a Muslim Serb state).

Though yes indeed, significant Muslim minorities do exist in the Republic of Macedonia and the Montenegro, as well as in the Sandžak region of Serbia (though not a significant [here counted as 10% or above] Muslim minority is present within Serbia as a whole).

Just a little tidbit of info.

[Atom]

I thought there were about 50 countries in Europe.

The European Union seeks to become a union of European states.

I'm all pro "The United States of Europe" :D USE! USE! USE!

However yes, I have no idea what this would entail.

To your question,
I see Europe as a bunch of neighboring countries that share both a very similar and different culture. It's almost like a whole another government. The 4th giant (US, China and Russia being the other 3.) I also view Europe as a lot more progressive "government" than the other 3 giants. And it's also the weakest of the 4.

EDIT: I actually really like your 4-point answer. I don't even want to add anything.

[Left Now]

river Ural and the Caspian sea to the Atlantic

Caspian Sea is more Asian than European.Actually Russian Caspian Coast is all in Asia not Europa(Europe.)

[Vlerchan]

For me, Europe refers to areas that are culturally dominated by Slavic, Germanic, Celtic, Romance, Western Finno Ugric (Hungarian, Sami, Finnish, Estonian, Karelian, Ingrian, Vepsian), Hellenic, Albanian, and Baltic language speakers [and more - snipped].
Is there a reason for basing it on languages - and more-so: these specific languages.

It casts a rather wide net.

---

I'd also no clue about the people of Albania and Kosovo not being Slavs. So thanks for that.

[Stronk Serb]

Caspian Sea is more Asian than European.Actually Russian Caspian Coast is all in Asia not Europa(Europe.)

They teach us in georgaphy, everything west of the Ural mountains and river is Europe, that includes a part of the Caspian coast, the northwestern part.

[Left Now]

They teach us in georgaphy, everything west of the Ural mountains and river is Europe, that includes a part of the Caspian coast, the northwestern part.

Well,we consider Caspian Sea and the coasts surrounding it Asia.Actually we call its eastern coast "Mavara'e Nahr" (ماوراءالنهر) means "Lands ahead of River" or "Transoxiana"and its western coast "Ghafghaz" (قفقاز) means "Caucasia"".I wrote them in Farsi because I thought you might be interested since you said you were studying Farsi too:)

[Alien djinn]

Europe and european union are two completely different things. For me Europe is where the indigenous people are white. European union is a political union of states who historically be long to western Europe . It is not yet a state or a government , maybe it Will be one day, but for the moment it's a political alliance. That is how i see it.

[phuckphace]

Europe is the geographical continent + its native white inhabitants + their cultures.

I also use the term European as an ethnonym for white, European-language speaking peoples living outside Europe in former colonies, such as Americans, Canadians, Australians, etc.

that's what I think of when I hear the word.

[fairmaiden]

I'm all pro "The United States of Europe" :D USE! USE! USE!

However yes, I have no idea what this would entail.

To your question,
I see Europe as a bunch of neighboring countries that share both a very similar and different culture. It's almost like a whole another government. The 4th giant (US, China and Russia being the other 3.) I also view Europe as a lot more progressive "government" than the other 3 giants. And it's also the weakest of the 4.

EDIT: I actually really like your 4-point answer. I don't even want to add anything.
USE vs USA would make a pretty good World Cup Final match aha!

Although isn't the European Union kinda like that anyway? :)

[Stronk Serb]

Well,we consider Caspian Sea and the coasts surrounding it Asia.Actually we call its eastern coast "Mavara'e Nahr" (ماوراءالنهر) means "Lands ahead of River" or "Transoxiana"and its western coast "Ghafghaz" (قفقاز) means "Caucasia"".I wrote them in Farsi because I thought you might be interested since you said you were studying Farsi too:)

The course by the embassy starts in Semptember but thanks. It appears we have a lot of stuff taken from Persian, especially talking about geography. We say Caucasia "Кавказ" (Kavkaz). I guess the borders of Europe haven't been thoroughly determined.

[Left Now]

The course by the embassy starts in Semptember but thanks. It appears we have a lot of stuff taken from Persian, especially talking about geography. We say Caucasia "Кавказ" (Kavkaz). I guess the borders of Europe haven't been thoroughly determined.

Well,languages are not inactive terms.They all are connected in a way.However,since Farsi is an active language,it shares many things with other languages too.

Well,that's right about Europe.

[dxcxdzv]

I often hear that americans think that Europe is a country, and even that they know nothing about European countries ; I'm glad it's not true!
I was looking for a debate on death penalty but I will answer this one first, even if the big of the thing has already been said.

To describe Europe there's the easy trick of Madam Europe where Europe is represented as a woman without legs. In fact geographically Europe can be delimited by the Atlantic coast, the Mediterranean Sea, the Ural Mountains in Russia and the Caucasus and nothing else. Where Orient begins (Turkey) Occident therefore Europe ends.
Politically it's not clear but the European Union tends to define it, every countries of UE are part of the geographical Europe and every admissible countries too except for Russia (considered as an Asian nation) and of course Turkey.

EU is neither a co-federation nor a federation. The European Constitution (constitutional Treaty of Rome) hasn't been ratified so the EU is actually an "alliance" of countries in the domains of economy and politic (and a lot of other things).
It doesn't prevent the fact that a lot of people consider themselves as Europeans rather than germans, spanish, french etc.

[Microcosm]

I often hear that americans think that Europe is a country, and even that they know nothing about European countries ; I'm glad it's not true!
I was looking for a debate on death penalty but I will answer this one first, even if the big of the thing has already been said.

To describe Europe there's the easy trick of Madam Europe where Europe is represented as a woman without legs. In fact geographically Europe can be delimited by the Atlantic coast, the Mediterranean Sea, the Ural Mountains in Russia and the Caucasus and nothing else. Where Orient begins (Turkey) Occident therefore Europe ends.
Politically it's not clear but the European Union tends to define it, every countries of UE are part of the geographical Europe and every admissible countries too except for Russia (considered as an Asian nation) and of course Turkey.

EU is neither a co-federation nor a federation. The European Constitution (constitutional Treaty of Rome) hasn't been ratified so the EU is actually an "alliance" of countries in the domains of economy and politic (and a lot of other things).
It doesn't prevent the fact that a lot of people consider themselves as Europeans rather than germans, spanish, french etc.

Please refrain from posting in threads which have been inactive for over two months.

:locked2: