A Complaint....Somewhat

[Uranus]

Ok, I have a question.

I've noticed that, in all the different forums here upon VT, there has been alot of Mod Notes stating:


Anymore off-topic posts and this thread will be locked.

Let's keep on topic.

And more...

And posts have been deleted.

My issue is, why is this? I can understand the fact that it is spamming and there is the 1+ post issue, but it bugs me. Even the semi-on-topic posts were deleted. Which makes VT(Virtual Teen) seem overly rule enforced. Because there are some things we'd like to say, that would still be deleted because of being off topic. I see this as a possible issue.

1) Yes, it is a teen recovery site. Not a social site. But honestly:

Recover, learn, and grow together

Growing together is a part of socializing. And "Grow Together" is simply being cut off. Meaning that we can post only, and only, helpful advice, and not grow together. Anything else is rule breaking. Which kinda makes it less enjoyable for anyone to be a member of VT.

A friend of mine made a thread requesting help for his rabbit.
I made a serious post, and then the latter was more of a joke. And I'm sure that will get deleted. If that's how it is, where is the fun in VT?

Certainly not the chat room. It's been very inactive. Only way you can enjoy it, is either PM'ing, or a group chat off of VT. With as many members we have here, I don't believe that it is a good idea to be very enforcing of the rules when it comes to being off topic. Alot of us don't go off topic because we don't like the rules, or we feel like the rules are dumb, we do so because we are enjoying being here on VT. And taking that away, takes the fun away. With as many ways of communicating and socializing that we have here upon VT, we should be allowed to. If this is how it is, ask a question, get an answer, and move on, you might as well go to Yahoo Answers. Again I understand the fact about +1'ing. But does a couple extra posts make you a bad person? No.

This is just my honest opinion.
As long as the off topic posts aren't hurting anyone, I see no issue.

EDIT:
I'm not trying to criticize the staff, I'm not even blaming them. So please don't think I am hating on them, or accusing them.
This is more of an observation.

[SethfromMI]

Bright Nights

I agree. Like Thomas, with respect to the staff, this site, in reality, is used by a good portion of people more of a social site than a recovery site. I know I did not join because I had some deep issue or pain I needed help with. now a lot of people come here for those reasons and it is great there are people here willing to help. I try to help when I can. but there are times when posts are sort of related but are called off topic for not being 100% on the topic, when an argument can be made they are, to some extent are.

I do understand the concern of trying to get people from spamming 100% pointless posts, but honestly. a good majority of people come here to have fun and to meet new people. the day I stop having fun here, I won't be back. that is not a shot or anything, that is just the way I personally feel. and I have met amazing people. I would say sometimes though the whole off topic thing can get a bit too rigid.

[jordanhardy]

I agree

[Vlerchan]

Just create a General Discussion Thread for general socialising: off-topic posting can be diverted there.

I also don't see topic drift in longer threads as unacceptable. But in shorter threads it seems almost rude to the OP.

[Living For Love]

We discourage off-topic comments not only because it might be considered spam or +1'y but also because it's rude towards the OP. I've seen threads where the OP asks something and then people comment and besides leaving their answer, they also make another question which is totally different from the OP's question, and then other people start answering it as well, and the thread becomes messy.

I personally haven't seen any case where a member of the staff has deleted posts that weren't off-topic, though in most cases, it is left up to the discretion of the moderator.

On the other hand, jokes you might think are only harmless jokes might not be so harmless to other people. There are users who are certainly more sensitive than you towards certain things. and you'll find that most off-topic comments aren't really people joking around, most of them are people actually drifting from the initial OP question.

[DerBear]

We discourage off-topic comments not only because it might be considered spam or +1'y but also because it's rude towards the OP. I've seen threads where the OP asks something and then people comment and besides leaving their answer, they also make another question which is totally different from the OP's question, and then other people start answering it as well, and the thread becomes messy.

I personally haven't seen any case where a member of the staff has deleted posts that weren't off-topic, though in most cases, it is left up to the discretion of the moderator.

On the other hand, jokes you might think are only harmless jokes might not be so harmless to other people. There are users who are certainly more sensitive than you towards certain things. and you'll find that most off-topic comments aren't really people joking around, most of them are people actually drifting from the initial OP question.

I think that in the General Discussion section if you make an off topic remark then perhaps it should be left and as long as the conversation is either pertaining to the topic at hand or its stemmed from the discussion that the OP started with then I don't see the problem. If its blatantly off topic e.g. A discussion about US politics then it goes into the topic of A scandal about a celebrity then of course that would be off topic.

However I don't know if deleting the posts is a good course of action because it can take just as many clicks to delete posts as to split posts and create a new topic from those posts. So if something has sky rocketed away from the OP that has nothing what so ever to do with it then I think really it should be splitted.

The argument I've seen stated by previous staff is that people shouldn't go off topic but I think in general discussion, its difficult to always stay on topic so of course after awhile of the same people replying then of course its going to stray a little and if someone is having an effective discussion then perhaps it should be split. There is also the argument that mods shouldn't have to do this but then again if mods are taking the time to thoroughly read through posts to determine if its off/on topic then to be honest they might as well split it.

If its H&A then I think off topic questions or hijacking comments should be deleted because its not fair on the OP as its a help thread, when I was H&A mod I did that because of it not being fair to the OP. However, when it comes to GD there is going to eventually be shift off one topic onto another, you see this quite often in TWPR or Ramblings of the Wise and even into topics like Music etc.

[Meh Guy]

Brooklyn Nights

I understand and somewhat agree with you, however;

There are threads such as ROTW or (to a lesser extent) TWPR that aren't asking a question, but calling for some sort of discussion. While some of the posts may not be 100% on topic, they usually relate and add to the discussion. I still see some of these posts being deleted or a message from a mod threading to lock a thread if it doesn't get back "on topic". I think it was phuckphace that brought that up some months ago and it seems like it hasn't changed much.

The one thing I do see happen a little too often which could be considered off topic would be the same or a few of the posters pretty much having a conversation in a thread.

[Living For Love]

However I don't know if deleting the posts is a good course of action because it can take just as many clicks to delete posts as to split posts and create a new topic from those posts. So if something has sky rocketed away from the OP that has nothing what so ever to do with it then I think really it should be splitted.

The argument I've seen stated by previous staff is that people shouldn't go off topic but I think in general discussion, its difficult to always stay on topic so of course after awhile of the same people replying then of course its going to stray a little and if someone is having an effective discussion then perhaps it should be split. There is also the argument that mods shouldn't have to do this but then again if mods are taking the time to thoroughly read through posts to determine if its off/on topic then to be honest they might as well split it.
Moderators would have probably taken action before the conversation sky rocketed away from the OP's question, and most of the times we just have posts that aren't suitable and developed enough to make a new thread. People are always free to create new threads rather than invading other people's threads with other topics.

If its H&A then I think off topic questions or hijacking comments should be deleted because its not fair on the OP as its a help thread, when I was H&A mod I did that because of it not being fair to the OP. However, when it comes to GD there is going to eventually be shift off one topic onto another, you see this quite often in TWPR or Ramblings of the Wise and even into topics like Music etc.
That's what I do as a H&A moderator, but then again, like you said, most off topic cases happen in ROTW and VTDC.

Apart from this, I also want to say that members are always free to ask moderators in private why they deleted their posts or threads (preferably via PM).

There are threads such as ROTW or (to a lesser extent) TWPR that aren't asking a question, but calling for some sort of discussion. While some of the posts may not be 100% on topic, they usually relate and add to the discussion.
I'm not a General Discussions mod, and like I said before, it is left up to the discretion of the moderators of the sections.

The one thing I do see happen a little too often which could be considered off topic would be the same or a few of the posters pretty much having a conversation in a thread.
I can agree with you on this, because in most cases, if a conversation develops between two members on a thread, they are asking each other questions that might be very different from the OP question, though I'd leave it if they were actually adding something important to the discussion.

On the other hand, you're always free to report those posts in case you see anything going off topic.

[Luminous]

Like it or not, VT is a help site primarily. That's okay if that's not the main reason you joined, but that is the biggest part of VT and where we came from 11 years ago. VT has lots of chances to be social with the private message system and the VM system and diaries. Threads become messy with off topic posts and drift away from the original point of the thread. If every thread got like that, the site would look ridiculously cluttered and disorganized all the time. Besides, we mainly do that in 2 forums, ROTW and Puberty101. ROTW because debates will get into arguments and onto a whole totally different road, and Puberty101 because threads will go into becoming basically just sex talking. Those are the main reasons it happens, if it happens in another thread it is probably because the members are doing something called +1, which is a post that is mostly pointless and is just intended to add onto that user's post count. We don't support that and delete plus ones. We've had several senior staff members look into this now and confirm that really all threads this happen to happen to for a good reason.

[DerBear]

Moderators would have probably taken action before the conversation sky rocketed away from the OP's question, and most of the times we just have posts that aren't suitable and developed enough to make a new thread. People are always free to create new threads rather than invading other people's threads with other topics.

I can only speak from when I was a H&A mod and I witnessed topics going off topic in GD it was generally established by discussing what the OP had stated in their topic so for example say it was a debate about shoes it would start off like that but over time, it would end up evolving into T-Shirts (poor example but you get the idea). Its a natural "Churn" of a conversation, it will start off in one direction but after awhile it will navigate away from the Original Discussion. It happens in real life, debates start and then you end up on a different topic by the time you finish.

Now obviously my suggestion would only work if there was definitive change and it wasn't gradual but my point still stands that deleting these 'off topic' posts might not always be the best way forward because quite often its harmless, especially in ROTW, TWPR and a lot of the other GD forums.

Like we both agreed, in the H&A sections its completely different story is it not? If we allowed off topic posts to made in someone's help thread it wouldn't be appropriate but because GD is relaxed and often not serious, natural churn of a debate/conversation can take place more free-flow.

People would still reply to the OP as well but it would still allow the evolution of the conversation.

Now obviously spam off topic posts that contribute nothing at all to the on going debate or conversation should be deleted because it contributes nothing but the natural evolution of a conversation shouldn't be deleted, because has stemed from the OP.

[xXl0sth0peXx]

I'm not really sure what to say in regards to this. And I've thought long and hard over what to say.

VT is a site of many coats. But honestly, its main coat isn't a social coat. Absolutely, we encourage socializing. We have the PM system, the VM system, places for some offsite contact, diaries, etc. We allow the exchange of any contact info via PM, and for the most part, PMs private. Obviously, if we have reason to look, a report, or something comes up in a search, we'll check.. but we don't go checking out your PMs for fun, looking for trouble or to ban you.

I fail to understand the connection here. You don't have to spam and go off topic to socialize with people. You can have a meaningful topic with the people in the thread about the topic which it was designed, and if there's off topic discussion that you want to have, you can create a new thread for it, or take it to a VM or PM. It honestly isn't that difficult. If we became lax and allowed off topic discussions, we'd might as well not have specific forums, and just have one thread for the entire community.. because everything'd just go off topic anyways and be a mess. You should go to a thread knowing the discussion it will be about, and not click on a thread about guns and have it be filled with conversation about religion.

Growing together is a part of socializing. And "Grow Together" is simply being cut off. Meaning that we can post only, and only, helpful advice, and not grow together. Anything else is rule breaking. Which kinda makes it less enjoyable for anyone to be a member of VT.

I'm sorry, but that's bullshit. While I do agree with you that socializing is a part of growing (and I say a part), what you said is far from the case. You can post way more than helpful advice (why would you want to post non helpful advice anyways?). In the H&A sections, which encompass a large amount of our forums, what else are you going to post besides advice? You're not going to go have a side conversation in someone's thread.. That's rude and disrespectful among other things. In the GD sections however, there are a lot of conversationy threads, and they aren't advice. There's geniuene conversation and 'socializing' going on. Maybe not on a personal level, but there it is. It isn't all help help help help.. and honestly, if it was, so be it. We're a help and recovery based site, not a hookup socialize site. Socializing just happens to fit in with this, and we're very welcome to having it.

I'm almost 20. I joined my first forum site a few months before I turned 11. And I've been on many, as users and staff. I've been banned from many as well. The first forum site I ever joined I got banned from within 18 months of membership. I don't know what sites you've been a part of, but most sites won't let you be super +1 and spammy like that. Is it possible we're stricter in that regard than some of the other sites? Absolutely, but that's just within what we want for VT, and what's best. We don't want to look trashy on the outside to people browsing, if we let contact info be posted on the forums, pervs would be all over it, and it'd be compeltely unsafe. We don't just whip these rules out of our asses. These are things that have been longly discussed and thoughtover, as well as evolved. They've been things that have been around since 2004 and modified to fit the growth of VT.

I'm not really sure what to tell you. If you come across a PM from us for a post we unfairly deleted, come to myself, mike or steven about it and we'll see about it. That's about the best I can say, because we can't really lax up on +1ing without VT going completely downhill. It's not a good idea, just as making the PM limit 50 isn't a good idea. We have experience and know what's best. And the system we have in place right now is for the best. If you don't like it, it's up to you to decide if you want to put up with it or not.