Social Justice / SJW / (third wave) Feminism / Fat acceptance

[Miserabilia]

Since I'm sure atleast half the member of this site have an account on Tumblr or atleast know what's happening in this world,
I'm sure y'all will have heart of the SJW.

SJW stands for Social Justice Warrior, those true heroes of the internet who fight for social justice! Or atleast... That's what they keep saying right?

So I have a few things I'd want to discuss if anyone's interested;

- Social Justice logic
- Third Wave Feminism
- Fat Acceptence


----------------------------------------------------------

Now as for my own opinion;
first of all, I think social justice (tumblr's version of it, atleast) is a lie, it's followers are manipulative and not honest about their beleifs.

Now a lot of you will know about Horseshoe theory, which basicly describes that Extreme Right and Extreme Left is actualy closer to each other.

http://www.pi-news.org/wp/uploads/2011/12/political-spectrum-horsesho.png

Now here's the idea SJW (pretends to) be based on.
http://kathyescobar.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/equality-vs-justice.jpg

See, tumlr SJ talks about "privilege" alot.
They say that every person is either born with or without a certain privilege.
For example,
"white privilege"
"cis privilege" (cis is a word for non-trans person btw)
"male privilege"
"thin privilege"
'

So basicly, I have privilege on all those three levels, I'm white, male, in shape and cis.
Now here's the fun part, according to SJW that means I have no say in what is racist,
what is sexist,
and what is trans/cisphobic.

For example; according to SJW, racism/sexism towards me does NOT exist.
A privileged group can not be discriminated agains by definition.
When a tumblr WoC (woman of colour) says

"lol all cis white men should die stupid crackers I hate them I want to shoot all white males in their face, if you're white cis male you should die a slow painful death and never be allowed near me. Who even is cis anyway."
(average tumblr post)

That is "by definition" NOT racist, NOT sexist, and NOT cisphobic.

But wait.. There's more!
SJw on race;
-don't let whites adopt PoC
-white people have no culture!
-white can't use things from other cultures (cultural appropriation!!)
And the list goes on and on.

What they absolutely hate? "colorblindness".

"we don't want equality! We want justice"
Basicly, MORE emphasis on difference in race. Less sharing of culture. Less interaction between people of other races and cultures.

---------
------
-


As for fat acceptence and thin privilge; just stop. In almost none of the cases is obesity purely medical. Admit that you have a problem. Aversion to extreme morbid obesity is not privilege or hate, it's a natural reaction to witnessing your obviously dying body. There's nothing beautiful about it.

----
---

As for feminism, my mother was born in the sixties and a pretty hardcore Second Wave feminist. I grew up with feminism, learning about rights of women in the past and mostly how women were treated in workplaces, like my mother's, how women would often be expected to act a certain way in society.
Like it or not, these are all real problems and I know this.
That's exactly why third wave feminism, especialy the new tumblr-esque kind annoys me so much. They're not solcing problems, they're not helpeing people.
Especialy those lines like

"the worst kind of misoginy is what you hear from people you thought you could trust"

No it's not? It's being denied of basic human rights and being stoned to death for wearing the wrong clothes? just stop please?

"x and x are oppressing me!"

No. Someone dissagreeing with you, or being expected to follow rules you aggreable signed up for is not being oppressed.

----


Ok so that's about it, there are still plenty of issues to discuss
(like "ableism", "neurodivergence", "headmates")
but I"ll save them for different threads.
Thanks for reading if you've stuck by to this point :lol:

[Horatio Nelson]

I can't speak on feminism, but social "justice" and fat acceptance are complete and utter bullshit. White people have feelings too, no one is responsible for the acts of their ancestors.

Obesity is not healthy, or natural, don't try and make it the norm, the only person that can change you is you.

That's all I have to say about that.

[Typhlosion]

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/011/869/internet_white_knight_colored_4350.jpg

Their tactics aren't working.

As a side note, either I never got or just forgot why were SJWs necessary in the first place. I feel like there's so much more drama being produced for a problem that was much smaller at the start. Or, as the idiom says, making a mountain out of a molehill.

[lyhom]

Frankly this whole "SJW" (a term which I hate using because it's getting so overused) logic stuff is pretty much the exact reason why I don't use Tumblr as much as I did.

I mean, it starts off with a decent idea of bettering social issues, but veers so violently left that it just ends up in the opposite direction.

Then again, if there's a consolation to all of this, most of the people who veer into the "SJW" territory are like 20 at the oldest so it's entirely possible that they'll grow out of being as radical as they are.

[World Eater]

I've grown tired of these kinds of people on tumblr. If they're so concerned about the state of the country/world, then they should get off their asses and do something about it instead of typing pointless bullshit that the rest of the world clearly does not care about. "But I'm oppressed!" Then stop complaining and do something about it.

I've seen people support Louis Farrakhan, an anti-semite, homophobic, conspiracy theorist, etc. He supports Robert Mugabe, a batshit dictator among other things, believes that the H1N1 vaccine was made to ease population, and believes Ebola was made by whites to kill blacks.

Granted there are some things I can agree with them, but it's the fucking arrogance and attitude of some of these people that I dislike. Since the Charlie Hebdo attacks (to me) they've made themselves look like complete asses and hypocrites, and I've followed a lot of French users who were pissed off and felt alienated by the responses.

[Miserabilia]

Frankly this whole "SJW" (a term which I hate using because it's getting so overused) logic stuff is pretty much the exact reason why I don't use Tumblr as much as I did.

I mean, it starts off with a decent idea of bettering social issues, but veers so violently left that it just ends up in the opposite direction.

Then again, if there's a consolation to all of this, most of the people who veer into the "SJW" territory are like 20 at the oldest so it's entirely possible that they'll grow out of being as radical as they are.

That's a pretty good point.
I've also noticed that most of the most prominent sjw blogs usualy will get deleted or delete themselves after about a year. Perhaps it's just a phase for people.
I know one SJW irl though...

[dirtyboxer55]

i support fat acceptance because it reduces male competition and also puts me into a higher tier for having a nice body

[Cpt_Cutter]

As a side note, either I never got or just forgot why were SJWs necessary in the first place.


Because when feminists realized that they actually had finally succeeded and had the same right's as men, they split into two groups. The majority, who went home, started a career and had a happy life, and the minority, who didn't really care about rights, they just wanted an issue to get riled up over. This latter group became the Tumblrinas, which in all seriousness had devolved into a "Who can be in the smallest minority and be oppressed" what with the whole kin-thing and all that. it's a shit-storm, no two ways about it. The people who are the radical SJW's will never really give up, or even accept "victory" should they ever perceive they've won it, they'll simply move on to the next strawman to argue with.

i support fat acceptance because it reduces male competition and also puts me into a higher tier for having a nice body

Ah, but you see they Fat acceptance people don't believe in tiers, they believe that super-fit guys would hound them just as much as a horny 13 year old would hound Megan Fox. Fat Acceptance advocates not only believe being fat is 100% healthy, (I.E. HASE) they believe that everyone should forcefully find them just as attractive as skinny people, and you're a misogynistic oppressor if you don't.


-merged double post. -Emerald Dream

[Elvalight]

I actually have never heard the term "SJW". I have little experience with tumblr, but I know what you mean. Some people will talk about how racism/sexism/homophobia is bad, only to do the same thing toward a more "privileged" person.
I believe, while I may be wrong, that fat acceptance isn't about glorifying the obesity itself, but promoting self-confidence among those who are trying to get a healthier lifestyle and end bullying those who are overweight. Children and teens should be taught healthy habits, not that skinny=pretty. I couldn't exercise for a long time because of panic attacks, and I know how much that took away from my self confidence. You shouldn't judge or disrespect anyone based on how they look.
I agree with you in that many people spread the false massage that it's ok to bully a cis/white/male person because it's not the same for them. Humans are all born equal, the only ones to be blamed are those who do bad things, and being born whatever way you were born is not something to be ashamed of. That's what our children should be taught. Acceptance is good, letting someone bully you because of what your ancestors did is bad.

[sunnieseason]

Feminism is not about moral equality for men and women. It started off as a movement for political and legal equality for women, but has ended up as a political movement to punish men and make women immune from morality and consequences.

I think its getting way out of control! In my high school we've had assemblies about the dangers of men, how men are all potential rapists, and how girls are always victims of horny boys looking to get a fix. Like literally we had an assembly that was all about the dangers of sexting, but the main point was that boys shouldn't pressure their girlfriends into sending nude pics as if the girl had no choice in the matter at all.

I've been paying attention to the whole "rape culture" thing because I visit my older cousin on her college campus a lot. I see posters about rape everywhere, and she tells me they had a lecture about how 1 out of every 3 guys wants to rape a girl. In some places now they make a boy ask permission to get to each new level of sex. He has to ask her if she wants him to kiss her, take off her shirt, etc.

I could talk about this stuff all day, but the main point is that the feminists want to make men out to be guilty just by being male, all while twisting facts and lying about rape. They want girls to be victims so that we don't have to play by the same moral rules. Our actions can always be forgiven if we are the victims.

I'm all for moral equality...every person is judged by the same set of moral principles. I just don't think feminism represents that at all.

[phuckphace]

fat acceptance is one of the more egregious movements to have spawned as of late.

obesity is unhealthy no matter what, period end of story. people are naturally repulsed by the obese because it is typically a signal of gluttony, selfishness and emotional infantilism.

so naturally, SJWs have latched on to fatties and shamelessly spread misinformation about the health and life impact of obesity. "healthy at any size" is an obvious lie, but of course gluttonous fatties would like nothing more than to have society accommodate and accept their miserable condition.

they are also experts at misdirecting the blame. there's all kinds of conspiracy theories bandied about like "dieting was invented by thin-privileged bigots to shame strong womyn of size" and other nonsense. yeah I'm sure it had nothing to do with the McFlurry you gulped down after those two quarter-pounders with fries (CHECK YOUR PRIVILEDGE BIGOT, I CAN'T COOK MY OWN MEALS, WHAT DO I LOOK LIKE SOME KIND OF FOUR STAR CHEF?!)

[sunnieseason]

Because when feminists realized that they actually had finally succeeded and had the same right's as men, they split into two groups. The majority, who went home, started a career and had a happy life, and the minority, who didn't really care about rights, they just wanted an issue to get riled up over. This latter group became the Tumblrinas, which in all seriousness had devolved into a "Who can be in the smallest minority and be oppressed" what with the whole kin-thing and all that. it's a shit-storm, no two ways about it. The people who are the radical SJW's will never really give up, or even accept "victory" should they ever perceive they've won it, they'll simply move on to the next strawman to argue with.

Matt,

I think some of them just want to deny biology. They are pissed off that they can't have intense careers like men but have children at the same time. They wan't to sleep around like men but don't want to accept that they aren't biologically wired for it. Then they want to cry that they are 35 and want kids but no good men want them. They want to be paid as much as men for doing a lot less risky things. They want to be morally bankrupt but not be held accountable for it.

[phuckphace]

Matt,

I think some of them just want to deny biology. They are pissed off that they can't have intense careers like men but have children at the same time. They wan't to sleep around like men but don't want to accept that they aren't biologically wired for it. Then they want to cry that they are 35 and want kids but no good men want them. They want to be paid as much as men for doing a lot less risky things. They want to be morally bankrupt but not be held accountable for it.

I completely agree with you.

[Karkat]

Things I hate:

-Most of what Tumblr dishes out, yeah

But also

-A lot of arguments against Tumblr ideals...

Which is funny, because you'd think I'd agree. But it seems like there is neither logic nor middle ground. Dan, yours is the only opinion (didn't really read most of the replies on this, and the ones I did I disagreed with) I've really seen that isn't completely irrational and out of left-field. (Not left-WING as in liberal, left-FIELD as in what the hell was that)

As someone who is mentally ill, physically disabled, LGBT twice over, PoC, AND biologically a woman (ntm poor, "fat", blah blah blah), you'd think I'd be perfectly safe on Tumblr.

...Do you know how many times I've been told to kill myself?

I have been told that I am:

-Too white/light-skinned
-Too straight
-Too compliant to the gender binary
-Too ableist (Tumblr has made me despise that word)
-Racist
-Sexist
-Homophobic/transphobic
-Too able-bodied to be considered disabled
-Not medically validated enough to be mentally ill
-Worthless
-Too skinny, ugly
-Ugly
-THE LIST GOES ON

...I was on Tumblr for a solid 3ish months, and I had MAYBE 40 followers.

?????????????? WHY.

So yeah, I have a seething hatred of Tumblr ideology.

But then, when I hear the OPPOSING side:

-Women should have no rights
-Women's rights are a joke
-Trans people are weird
-Gay people make too big of a deal out of everything
-Racism isn't an issue
-The gender "binary" should be upheld. It's called ACTING LIKE YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO
-If you even think anything Tumblr says is right, or even close, you're uptight, obnoxious, and crazy, and you should not breed
-Rape jokes are funny!!!
-Sexism isn't an issue. At least, not against women. Women have too much going for them! What about men's rights??
-The disabled are weird, lazy, lying, and always a good punchline to a joke
-Mental illness makes you a freak
-Go kill yourself haha
-You're unattractive because there is a STANDARD, and you don't meet it
-You're disgusting, go eat a salad
-THE LIST
-GOES
-ON

I'M GENUINELY NOT SURE WHICH SIDE I HATE MORE.

What kills me most at the moment, I think, especially personally, is this weeeeeird din around body size, and loving your body because IT'S YOUR BODY.

-Eating disorders mean that you are weak and fake
-Being "fat" means you're disgusting, and it's always your fault
-You HAVE to be between sizes 4 and 10, or you're not good enough
-Even then, 6-8. Golden number.
-But if you're a teen, it's more like oh, 00
-No one is safe
-No one can love themselves
-Everyone MUST hate their bodies and spend countless hours obsessing, and trying to improve themselves- not for their health

But for

SOCIETY

WHAT. THE. FUCK.


STOP.

NO.

I am done with it all. As someone who has BARELY started to accept that I have a problem in the form of a possible eating disorder, this is LITERALLY KILLING ME

IMAGINE THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN HOSPITALIZED FOR IT.

And I'm not just talking about those "sickly" girls who you look at and immediately think "anorexia" (which is pretty presumptuous.)

"Fat" girls can have eating disorders too.

FAT. GIRLS. CAN. HATE. THEIR. BODIES. TOO.

So while I feel that ignoring your health is AWFUL, hating our bodies is NOT THE ANSWER.

But when society promotes not only hating OUR bodies, but everyone else's- and making their bodies our business, and our bodies everyone else's, the world becomes SO TOXIC, because no one ever feels any semblance of confidence.

We can't have happiness, can we?

We must ALWAYS. Hate. Ourselves.

As someone who is simultaneously "too fat", and "too skinny", my head spins every time I see the words "fat acceptance", because I know an anxiety attack is about to come on.

Forgive me if I sound pretentious, but

Shouldn't that be a HUGE fucking red flag?

[Cpt_Cutter]

I find the whole concept of "rape culture" quite funny actually, It's a lot like the way anti Vaxxers think. One study, later proven to be horrendously biased, flawed and useless is created, and even though dozens of later studies disprove it, people only seem to hear what confirms the bias that they gained from following the first, flawed study.

TL;DR The "Study" confirming "Rape Culture" was later proven to be about as manipulated you can physically get, but people don't seem to care if it makes them seem the victim of some world-wide oppression.

[Karkat]

I find the whole concept of "rape culture" quite funny actually, It's a lot like the way anti Vaxxers think. One study, later proven to be horrendously biased, flawed and useless is created, and even though dozens of later studies disprove it, people only seem to hear what confirms the bias that they gained from following the first, flawed study.

TL;DR The "Study" confirming "Rape Culture" was later proven to be about as manipulated you can physically get, but people don't seem to care if it makes them seem the victim of some world-wide oppression.

...This sounds incredibly biased. What study? What was it on? Rape culture exists- this coming from someone who was raped, and gets a lot of unnecessary shit for it. Actually, most of the women in my family were either victim to sexual or domestic abuse, yet we have gotten the blame, and told that neither are problems in modern society, that we're just being dramatic.

I mean, what point are you trying to push? Are you a conservative? Are you against "immodest dress"? Are you against premarital sex and "sleeping around"? Are you against women? Are you against the idea of rape existing as a concept? Are you against the idea of something being called rape unless women conform to strict gender roles? I'm not even trying to accuse you of anything, I'm just curious.

[dirtyboxer55]

Things I hate:
-Most of what Tumblr dishes out, yeah

But also

-A lot of arguments against Tumblr ideals...

Which is funny, because you'd think I'd agree. But it seems like there is neither logic nor middle ground. Dan, yours is the only opinion (didn't really read most of the replies on this, and the ones I did I disagreed with) I've really seen that isn't completely irrational and out of left-field. (Not left-WING as in liberal, left-FIELD as in what the hell was that)

As someone who is mentally ill, physically disabled, LGBT twice over, PoC, AND biologically a woman (ntm poor, "fat", blah blah blah), you'd think I'd be perfectly safe on Tumblr.

...Do you know how many times I've been told to kill myself?

I have been told that I am:

-Too white/light-skinned
-Too straight
-Too compliant to the gender binary
-Too ableist (Tumblr has made me despise that word)
-Racist
-Sexist
-Homophobic/transphobic
-Too able-bodied to be considered disabled
-Not medically validated enough to be mentally ill
-Worthless
-Too skinny, ugly
-Ugly
-THE LIST GOES ON

...I was on Tumblr for a solid 3ish months, and I had MAYBE 40 followers.

?????????????? WHY.

So yeah, I have a seething hatred of Tumblr ideology.

But then, when I hear the OPPOSING side:

-Women should have no rights
-Women's rights are a joke
-Trans people are weird
-Gay people make too big of a deal out of everything
-Racism isn't an issue
-The gender "binary" should be upheld. It's called ACTING LIKE YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO
-If you even think anything Tumblr says is right, or even close, you're uptight, obnoxious, and crazy, and you should not breed
-Rape jokes are funny!!!
-Sexism isn't an issue. At least, not against women. Women have too much going for them! What about men's rights??
-The disabled are weird, lazy, lying, and always a good punchline to a joke
-Mental illness makes you a freak
-Go kill yourself haha
-You're unattractive because there is a STANDARD, and you don't meet it
-You're disgusting, go eat a salad
-THE LIST
-GOES
-ON

I'M GENUINELY NOT SURE WHICH SIDE I HATE MORE.

What kills me most at the moment, I think, especially personally, is this weeeeeird din around body size, and loving your body because IT'S YOUR BODY.

-Eating disorders mean that you are weak and fake
-Being "fat" means you're disgusting, and it's always your fault
-You HAVE to be between sizes 4 and 10, or you're not good enough
-Even then, 6-8. Golden number.
-But if you're a teen, it's more like oh, 00
-No one is safe
-No one can love themselves
-Everyone MUST hate their bodies and spend countless hours obsessing, and trying to improve themselves- not for their health

But for

SOCIETY

WHAT. THE. FUCK.


STOP.

NO.

I am done with it all. As someone who has BARELY started to accept that I have a problem in the form of a possible eating disorder, this is LITERALLY KILLING ME

IMAGINE THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN HOSPITALIZED FOR IT.

And I'm not just talking about those "sickly" girls who you look at and immediately think "anorexia" (which is pretty presumptuous.)

"Fat" girls can have eating disorders too.

FAT. GIRLS. CAN. HATE. THEIR. BODIES. TOO.

So while I feel that ignoring your health is AWFUL, hating our bodies is NOT THE ANSWER.

But when society promotes not only hating OUR bodies, but everyone else's- and making their bodies our business, and our bodies everyone else's, the world becomes SO TOXIC, because no one ever feels any semblance of confidence.

We can't have happiness, can we?

We must ALWAYS. Hate. Ourselves.

As someone who is simultaneously "too fat", and "too skinny", my head spins every time I see the words "fat acceptance", because I know an anxiety attack is about to come on.

Forgive me if I sound pretentious, but

Shouldn't that be a HUGE fucking red flag?

interesting post but honestly you couldve cut this in half by replacing the first part with 'i hate extremist point of views no matter which side they come from' which nearly everyone agrees with already

[Karkat]

interesting post but honestly you couldve cut this in half by replacing the first part with 'i hate extremist point of views no matter which side they come from' which nearly everyone agrees with already

Touché

This may be the only post of yours I agree with

[Cpt_Cutter]

Rape culture exists

I'm not against anything, I'm stating a fact. The Idea of "Rape Culture" that tumblr has simply isnt (http://thefederalist.com/2014/12/11/new-doj-data-on-sexual-assaults-college-students-are-actually-less-likely-to-be-victimized/) true (http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/economic-intelligence/2013/10/24/statistics-dont-back-up-claims-about-rape-culture).

The study that created the whole theory of "Rape Culture" was a study in the mid 80's (http://www.city-journal.org/2008/18_1_campus_rape.html) done by a health professor at the University of Arizona called Mary Koss. When directly asking if the women had been raped didn't give a satisfactory result, she redefined the parameters to basically the equivalent of "A weird guy sat next to me on the bus once". This gave a 25% return rate, making the situation seem dramatically worse than it is or ever was, and gained dozens of millions of dollars for anti-rape groups from the government and the public. Here's the kicker. 75% of that 25% return rate, when later asked, said they weren't raped a further 41% went on to have consensual intercourse with their attacker multiple times later, I.E. false accusation. Oops. Even basic logic shows how flawed that number is. If any crime rose to a 1 in 4 rate, you can guarantee martial law would be declared. The worst crime rate in America, Detroit, in 2006 (a bad year) was 2,400 in 100,000, or 2.4%. That includes Rapes, Murders, Aggravated assaults and Robberies.

I'm not a Conservative, I'm more independent than anything on the US scale, because even the liberals are pretty right wing by New Zealand's politics. I'm not belittling you for being raped, I'm not saying it didn't happen and I'm certainly not excusing anyone for committing a crime of that scale, but it's just a fact that the "Rape Culture" that tumblr screams exists simply doesn't.

Sorry if this sounds overly hostile, I get very frustrated when people make entire assumptions about literally 51% of the human population when a few bad seeds ruin the crop.

[Karkat]

I'm not against anything, I'm stating a fact. The Idea of "Rape Culture" that tumblr has simply isnt (http://thefederalist.com/2014/12/11/new-doj-data-on-sexual-assaults-college-students-are-actually-less-likely-to-be-victimized/) true (http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/economic-intelligence/2013/10/24/statistics-dont-back-up-claims-about-rape-culture).

The study that created the whole theory of "Rape Culture" was a study in the mid 80's (http://www.city-journal.org/2008/18_1_campus_rape.html) done by a health professor at the University of Arizona called Mary Koss. When directly asking if the women had been raped didn't give a satisfactory result, she redefined the parameters to basically the equivalent of "A weird guy sat next to me on the bus once". This gave a 25% return rate, making the situation seem dramatically worse than it is or ever was, and gained dozens of millions of dollars for anti-rape groups from the government and the public. Here's the kicker. 75% of that 25% return rate, when later asked, said they weren't raped a further 41% went on to have consensual intercourse with their attacker multiple times later, I.E. false accusation. Oops. Even basic logic shows how flawed that number is. If any crime rose to a 1 in 4 rate, you can guarantee martial law would be declared. The worst crime rate in America, Detroit, in 2006 (a bad year) was 2,400 in 100,000, or 2.4%. That includes Rapes, Murders, Aggravated assaults and Robberies.

I'm not a Conservative, I'm more independent than anything on the US scale, because even the liberals are pretty right wing by New Zealand's politics. I'm not belittling you for being raped, I'm not saying it didn't happen and I'm certainly not excusing anyone for committing a crime of that scale, but it's just a fact that the "Rape Culture" that tumblr screams exists simply doesn't.

Sorry if this sounds overly hostile, I get very frustrated when people make entire assumptions about literally 51% of the human population when a few bad seeds ruin the crop.

Nah, if anything, I agree with you. I just misunderstood you I guess.

[Cpt_Cutter]

Nah, if anything, I agree with you. I just misunderstood you I guess.

All good, I suppose I wasn't terrible clear in my first comment. re-reading it, it does come off as ambiguous.

[Vlerchan]

Apologies in advance for murdering your bandwith:

first of all, I think social justice (tumblr's version of it, atleast) is a lie, it's followers are manipulative and not honest about their beleifs.
I've mentioned before that I think the extremist aspects of the SJW movement get more attention (and/or are louder) than the non-extremist elements:

I've never bought this whole meme about all SJWs being as described.

Now here's the fun part, according to SJW that means I have no say in what is racist, what is sexist, and what is trans/cisphobic.
No. At the very most non-privileged people are better at identifying discrimination because they face it in their everyday lives.

For example; according to SJW, racism/sexism towards me does NOT exist.
A privileged group can not be discriminated agains by definition.
Racism does not exist against you. This is because Racism is not just Discrimination. (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2911984&postcount=8)

You can be discriminated against on all thee basis'. Though I've never seen a cis-person endure actual cis-sexism.

"lol all cis white men should die stupid crackers I hate them I want to shoot all white males in their face, if you're white cis male you should die a slow painful death and never be allowed near me. Who even is cis anyway."
I think the difference here is that this is just words.

For non-cis, woman, and non-whites this is something that actually happens to them, and has happened to them in history.

-don't let whites adopt PoC
-white people have no culture!
-white can't use things from other cultures (cultural appropriation!!)
I agree that white people don't have a culture. But then neither do black people or asian people.

This is because we're not referring to homogeneous bodies.

The rest is obviously disagreeable. But then I wonder if you're just highlighting the absolute worst.

As for feminism, my mother was born in the sixties and a pretty hardcore Second Wave feminist. I grew up with feminism, learning about rights of women in the past and mostly how women were treated in workplaces, like my mother's, how women would often be expected to act a certain way in society.
Like it or not, these are all real problems and I know this.
That's exactly why third wave feminism, especialy the new tumblr-esque kind annoys me so much. They're not solcing problems, they're not helpeing people.
Especialy those lines like

"the worst kind of misoginy is what you hear from people you thought you could trust"

No it's not? It's being denied of basic human rights and being stoned to death for wearing the wrong clothes? just stop please?

"x and x are oppressing me!"

No. Someone dissagreeing with you, or being expected to follow rules you aggreable signed up for is not being oppressed.
None of this is actually a criticism of Third-Wave Feminism.

---

I feel like there's so much more drama being produced for a problem that was much smaller at the start.
How was the problem 'much smaller at the start'.

I also do agree that there's a disproportionate amount of focus on identity politics. I would imagine it's because it easiest for people to just learn-off responses to and not do some actual thinking. If you read any pro/anti-SJW issues debate you'll see the same sort of responses each time.

This latter group became the Tumblrinas, which in all seriousness had devolved into a "Who can be in the smallest minority and be oppressed" what with the whole kin-thing and all that. it's a shit-storm, no two ways about it.
I'm not on Tumblr though.

I also don't make a critique anything like what you strawmanned.

I find the whole concept of "rape culture" quite funny actually
1 person is raped every 107 seconds in the US. (https://rainn.org/statistics)

Sounds rape-y to me.

---

It started off as a movement for political and legal equality for women, but has ended up as a political movement to punish men and make women immune from morality and consequences.
I don't see how telling woman to try protect themselves from rape makes them immune from morality and consequences. It just seems like it would make less likely they get raped:

Though I guess that's a consequence. I can't imagine it's what you were referring to though.

---

Please note also that between 20 - 25% (http://www.union.edu/offices/dean/sart/campus/) of woman are victims of sexual rape or attempted rape during their time in college.

They are pissed off that they can't have intense careers like men but have children at the same time.
Yes.

Do you think it's correct that it's the woman who's expected to put her life on hold for the child?

I think it should be an equal burden.

They wan't to sleep around like men but don't want to accept that they aren't biologically wired for it.
Please present verifiable evidence supporting this claim. Thank you.

Then they want to cry that they are 35 and want kids but no good men want them.
If only they'd become dependent on their man right?

Like a real woman.

They want to be paid as much as men for doing a lot less risky things.
Men are socialised to take more risks. It also accounts for their higher levels of homelessness.

Of course I think you're exaggerating the extent in which 'doing risky things' determines people's employment outcomes significantly.

[Cpt_Cutter]

1 person is raped every 107 seconds in the US. (https://rainn.org/statistics)

Sounds rape-y to me.

Please note also that between 20 - 25% (http://www.union.edu/offices/dean/sart/campus/) of woman are victims of sexual rape or attempted rape during their time in college.


Refer to my other post, where I've already addressed the claim that 20-25% of women are victims of sexual assault in their lives. Spoiler alert, It's false.
Without any digging or research, I would be skeptical of the first figure as well, but as It's 11:30 at night where I am now and I cbf spending an hour on the internet looking for information for use in an argument on the internet, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

[Vlerchan]

Refer to my other post, where I've already addressed the claim that 20-25% of women are victims of sexual assault in their lives. Spoiler alert, It's false.
Sorry. I started typing before what you wrote was posted and missed it:

I'll go check some methodologies in the afternoon:

I had seen the figure reported across a number of sources and took it at face-value so thanks for producing the article.

---

I'll make it easier for you and find the methodology for the other statistic while I'm at it.

[Miserabilia]

This may sound really shitty so just letting you know in advance that's not how I mean it, but;
I don't think you've spent enough time on tumblr or actualy seen enough of SJW to know exactly what part of sjw i'm refering to. I'm not highlighting the absolute worst, I'm actualy trying to show what I feel is about the average tumblr SJW, which is obviously biased, but I'm not trying to create a strawman here. I usualy follow back every single one of my followers which is getting close to 200, but I have to unfollow so many of them because I'm guarenteed to eventualy get my dash filled up with prejudice, generalizations, and you name it all for the sake of "justice". However no justice is achieved in doing this, in spreading those types of posts and indoctrinating people with hate and most of all fear, and instead of trying to bring different types of people together, spreading them even further apart, with effort in the differences instead of what we all have in common.


I've mentioned before that I think the extremist aspects of the SJW movement get more attention (and/or are louder) than the non-extremist elements:
I've never bought this whole meme about all SJWs being as described.


Mhm.
It's true that obviously, as with pretty much every group of people, not every sjw is this/that/such/such, but in this case the generalizations seems pretty justifiable. Yes, it may have to do with the loudness, but the truth is that the whole concept of social 'justice' relies on these principals, or atleast some version of them, otherwise they'd be called social equality, wouldn't they?



No. At the very most non-privileged people are better at identifying discrimination because they face it in their everyday lives.
Racism does not exist against you.

You can be discriminated against on all thee basis'. Though I've never seen a cis-person endure actual cis-sexism.

I think the difference here is that this is just words.

For non-cis, woman, and non-whites this is something that actually happens to them, and has happened to them in history.


Right, I've heard the whole racism does not exist against me because not systamtic oppression social this that such such blabla words words words.
Okay so let me refrase, there is not racism against white people, only prejudice discrimination and hate based on the colour of their skin.
And ofcourse is has happened to them in history, and is still happening today.
Lots of people are racist sexist and treat minorities or people different than them like crap.
However that's no reason to be in a constant state of anger, and even fear and paranoia of the "privileged" group.
This may sound like I"m overreacting, but this is in their own words. SJW's display an obviously fearful attitude towards the opposite group, even if no actual discrimination or hate is against them, they'll fear it because they actualy develop a prejeduce that the entire privilged group is like that.
"yes, all men!"

Not to mention the fact that what happened in the past generations ago is not really that good of a reason to display hate fear and prejeduce against the new generation.

it's understandable, yes, but it's not logical and it definetely shouldn't be followed as some kind of life style and celebrated as a movement.




I agree that white people don't have a culture. But then neither do black people or asian people.
This is because we're not referring to homogeneous bodies.
The rest is obviously disagreeable. But then I wonder if you're just highlighting the absolute worst.


Sadly I'm not.



None of this is actually a criticism of Third-Wave Feminism.



Well, true, that would be kind of dumb for me to do. I probably made it sound like that/worded it like that but it's not really possible for me to criticize third wave feminism itself. It's such a broad range of movements and beleifs that it wouldn't really be possible. I'm just hoping to make a point of the specific side of third wave feminism that personaly annoys me and that I disaggree with.

[Vlerchan]

This may sound really shitty so just letting you know in advance that's not how I mean it, but;
I don't think you've spent enough time on tumblr or actualy seen enough of SJW to know exactly what part of sjw i'm refering to. I'm not highlighting the absolute worst, I'm actualy trying to show what I feel is about the average tumblr SJW, which is obviously biased, but I'm not trying to create a strawman here. I usualy follow back every single one of my followers which is getting close to 200, but I have to unfollow so many of them because I'm guarenteed to eventualy get my dash filled up with prejudice, generalizations, and you name it all for the sake of "justice". However no justice is achieved in doing this, in spreading those types of posts and indoctrinating people with hate and most of all fear, and instead of trying to bring different types of people together, spreading them even further apart, with effort in the differences instead of what we all have in common.
Right. Well if we're going to conceptualise SJWs as people who do X by definition then there's not much of your response I can argue with I guess.

---
Cpt_Cutter: (Obligatory Trigger warning) Please note the below contains graphic descriptions of rape as reproduced from relevant studies.

Ok. I went and viewed some methodologies.

First off the study that the article you linked to dealt with was not the study that's commonly referred to by campuses. The one I see being linked to is the "Bonnie Fisher, Francis Cullen, and Michael Turner, (2000) The Sexual Victimization of College Women. Washington, DC: National Institute of Justice and Bureau of Justice Statistics. (NCJ 182369)" (https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/182369.pdf) report. It is dealt with in passing but not to any great extent. Your article mainly deals with Mary Koss (1985) as published in Ms.. I'm going to regardless summarise the report I found with regard to the same criticisms as highlighted in the article you linked to:

Screening Process

The questions asked are listed on p. 6 of the linked article. Each respondent was asked to give either a 'yes' or 'no' answer. Each question ostensibly links to the categories of sexual predation discussed later on. From reading it would seem that the one connected to completed rape was:

• Since school began in fall 1996, has anyone made you have sexual intercourse by using force or threatening to harm you or someone close to you? Just so there is no mistake, by intercourse I mean putting a penis in your vagina.
• Since school began in fall 1996, has anyone made you have oral sex by force or threat of harm? By oral sex, I mean someone’s mouth or tongue making contact with your vagina or anus or your mouth or tongue making contact with someone else’s genitals or anus.
• Since school began in fall 1996, has anyone made you have anal sex by force or threat of harm? By anal sex, I mean putting a penis in your anus or rectum.
• Since school began in fall 1996, has anyone ever used force or threat of harm to sexually penetrate you with a foreign object? By this, I mean for example, placing a bottle or finger in your vagina or anus.

Ibid.

For attempted rape it was:

• Since school began in fall 1996, has anyone attempted but not succeeded in making you take part in any of the unwanted sexual experiences that I have just asked you about? For example, did anyone threaten or try but not succeed to have vaginal, oral, or anal sex with you or try unsuccessfully to penetrate your vagina or anus with a foreign object or finger?

Ibid.

It doesn't seem ambiguous to me at all.

Victims don't claim to have been raped

This is the point your article touches on. Here's the definition of completed rape given in this study.

Completed rape: Unwanted completed penetration by force or the threat of force. Penetration includes: penile-vaginal, mouth on your genitals, mouth on someone else’s genitals, penile-anal, digital-vaginal, digital-anal, object-vaginal, and object-anal.

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/182369.pdf

Later on in the study the following is mentioned:

In each incident report, respondents were asked, “Do you consider this incident to be a rape?” For the 86 incidents categorized as a completed rape, 46.5 percent (n = 40) of the women answered “yes,” 48.8 percent (n = 42) answered “no,” and 4.7 percent (n = 4) answered “don’t know.”

Ibid.

So a majority of positive-negative responders didn't classify acts listed in completed rape as actual rape. Considering how unambiguous I figure the definition of completed rape offers I don't think this is down to a mischaracterisation of rape on the authors parts. The authors when discussing this suggest that it might be down to "[...] embarrassment, not clearly understanding the legal definition of the term, or not wanting to define someone they know who victimized them as a rapist) or because others blame them for their sexual assault." I do think the idea of self-blame amongst actual rape victims is an important consideration here. Citation 29 within Fisher et al. (2000) deals with this. In Ireland it is considered the fault (http://www.amnesty.ie/news/damning-indictment-ireland%E2%80%99s-attitude-women) of the woman if she is raped when high/drunk (41%), wearing revealing clothing (26%), flirting extensively with someone (37%), so the fact that some people didn't see some incidents as rape shouldn't shock.

Your article uses the fact that woman didn't define the events as rape like they did as damning the analysis to being redundancy. It then goes on to highlight an extreme case as a measure of what rape is. I think this is fallacious reasoning. Considering the extent to which rape by persons known makes up the number of rapes committed per annum - in this example ~ 25% was committed by boyfriends/ex-boyfriends; and the same figure for friends - it's quite likely that these are going to be less violent than the most depraved examples - not to mention more ambiguous when described.

It's also notable that the figure for victims taking protective action in these situations is >46.5% (65.1%). The figure for protective action taken in attempted rape was 91.5%. The breakdown of protective action taken is seen on p. 22. Using physical aggression against the person dominates.

Drunk people

From the definition of rape offered above I would have a hard time imagining that it included drunken consent within its definition. Perhaps it does though. In such a case I agree with the British R v Bree [2007] in which if a person is so drunk that to be without their own state of mind then it is not possible to give consent. But she drank herself into that condition isn't an excuse.

---

One thing that the article didn't touch on but is actually important though is the generalising utilised by the authors.

At first glance, one might conclude that the risk of rape victimization for college women is not high; “only” about 1 in 36 college women (2.8 percent) experience a completed rape or attempted rape in an academic year. Such a conclusion, however, misses critical, and potentially disquieting, implications. The figures measure victimization for slightly more than half a year (6.91 months). Projecting results beyond this reference period is problematic for a number of reasons, such as assuming that the risk of victimization is the same during summer months and remains stable over a person’s time in college. However, if the 2.8 percent victimization figure is calculated for a 1-year period, the data suggest that nearly 5 percent (4.9 percent) of college women are victimized in any given calendar year. Over the course of a college career—which now lasts an average of 5 years—the percentage of completed or attempted rape victimization among women in higher educational institutions might climb to between one-fifth and one-quarter.

Ibid.

It notes this itself and declares that further analysis in needed. There tends to be a higher risk of being raped (http://www.usu.edu/ust/pdf/2008/november/itn1106083.pdf) closer to the start of the college year and Fisher et al. (2000) analyses mostly referred to the start of the college year. There also tends to be a higher risk of being raped in students first and second years so generalising across the five years is going to lead to false conclusions. I'm not sure how significant an impact this might have on the findings - I would need to read into more of the literature.

---

It's notable that the US Department for Justice reports (http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rsavcaf9513.pdf) that the rate of college rape and sexual assault has declined from 9 per 1000 height in ~1998 (when the above was published) to 3 per 1000 in 2013. So using the figures observed in the cited article is without a doubt some fallacious reporting on my part even if we judge the critiques you offered to be false.

The reason why there's such a difference between the report cited there and the study produced is addressed on p. 14 of the study.

---

Discovering the methodology behind the second claim is much simpler. RAIIN publishes it itself:

Here's the math. According to the U.S. Department of Justice's National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS)--there is an average of 293,066 victims (age 12 or older) of rape and sexual assault each year.

There are 525,600 minutes in a non-leap year. That makes 31,536,000 seconds/year. So, 31,536,000 divided by 293,066 comes out to 1 sexual assault every 107 seconds.

https://rainn.org/get-information/statistics/frequency-of-sexual-assault

There's an obvious problem with including sexual assault here since that's much broader:

The FBI claims here (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/violent-crime/rape) indicate that there's ~ 80,000 - 90,000 rapes reported per year. You then have a number of figures to go with which indicate how many are false-report and then how under-reported the positive reports are.

In actuality it's probably every 200 or so seconds. More lazy reporting on my part:

Guess I shouldn't write these up right before I head out to college.

[Miserabilia]

Right. Well if we're going to conceptualise SJWs as people who do X by definition then there's not much of your response I can argue with I guess.



As in you aggree with me in that case, or as in you think i'm completely generalizing and you can't even respond to a single argument because of that.

Because first of let me say I totaly see your points, but it's not completely uncalled for to say that atleast most of SJW tumblr frequently brings up these points. I can't provide statistcal evidence but there are countless examples every day. Those are the things I disaggree with and are questioning. Those certain sjw beleifs.

So yes, in hindsight saying that "sjw is a lie" or something like that I said was a dumb thing to say and I should have payed more attention to that generalization (and not defend it) but I hope you can still see what I dissagree with exactly and why.

[sunnieseason]

I saw a man sitting with his legs spread. I felt oppressed and degrated. He raped me with his manspreading. That is all.

[Babs]

Just a thought, I feel like people greatly exaggerate bad parts of feminism and social justice. Most ridiculous "SJWs" are trolls and people don't even try to distinguish trolls from people who are serious. Yes, there are people who are completely serious about ridiculous views and whatnot, but most of the time they are trolls.
If you actually take the time to read about legit feminism and whatnot, it's not so "tumblr-y". If you're gonna bitch about online activists, do yourself a favor and recognize when someone's a troll.

[Cpt_Cutter]

If you actually take the time to read about legit feminism and whatnot, it's not so "tumblr-y"..

The issue is that "Legit" feminism in western society is running out of things to focus on. It's shown by the fact that the "Wage gap" is a myth and "Rape culture" is a myth. Feminism succeeded, That's great. It got equality. And now what we're left with are the people who are just looking for something to fight for/over.

Well, that's a terrible generalization, as I know that Men and Women aren't treated 100% equal, but for all intents and purposes, they are.

[Atom]

Thats funny because I am also on tumblr, but on the completely other side of it, because I've never seen this kind of posts/blogs before and I consider myself to be somewhat active.

Now a lot of you will know about Horseshoe theory, which basically describes that Extreme Right and Extreme Left is actually closer to each other.
You have already put more thought into it than people who post this kind of crap do. Usually their statements start crashing down when you dig a little bit deeper into them.
"white privilege"
Have anyone ever thought about it this way:
White people take up to 75% of the US population and because of this 3 out of 4 times people you will be dealing with will be white, whether it comes to getting a job or simple things like buying stuff in a grocery store. And social groups tend to look up to their members. Religious people are more likely to employ other religious people, white people are more likely to employ other white people and etc. This happens because we see a connection with those people. For the same reason people seek friend with the same interests. Non-white people are just in a minority. Just my randoms thoughts, I don't really care about this topic.
According to SJW that means I have no say in what is racist, what is sexist, and what is trans/cisphobic.
You do understand that you are being oppressed right now? :D
"lol all cis white men should die stupid crackers I hate them I want to shoot all white males in their face, if you're white cis male you should die a slow painful death and never be allowed near me. Who even is cis anyway."
That is "by definition" NOT racist, NOT sexist, and NOT cisphobic.
I don't think that even most SJWs would take this woman seriously. People like these just don't deserve your attention, ignore 'em.
Also:
"Who even is cis anyway." Who is black people anyway.
Less sharing of culture. Less interaction between people of other races and cultures.
They is plain racism towards whites. Again, it's stupid, ignore it, don't take idiots seriously.
"thin privilege"
top kek 10/10, next.
...I usually follow back every single one of my followers...
Why?

Overall I agree with you. Usually people who are not really "oppressed" in any way are the ones who post this crap, they grow out of it eventually or die alone with their anger burning them from inside out. People who are really oppressed, like your example where women are being stoned to death, fight for their rights and not sit at home posting on tumblr, complaining. There is even a meme that you should watch what you say or the tumblr will come after you.

Feminism is not about moral equality for men and women. It started off as a movement for political and legal equality for women, but has ended up as a political movement to punish men and make women immune from morality and consequences.

I think its getting way out of control! In my high school we've had assemblies about the dangers of men, how men are all potential rapists, and how girls are always victims of horny boys looking to get a fix. Like literally we had an assembly that was all about the dangers of sexting, but the main point was that boys shouldn't pressure their girlfriends into sending nude pics as if the girl had no choice in the matter at all.

I've been paying attention to the whole "rape culture" thing because I visit my older cousin on her college campus a lot. I see posters about rape everywhere, and she tells me they had a lecture about how 1 out of every 3 guys wants to rape a girl. In some places now they make a boy ask permission to get to each new level of sex. He has to ask her if she wants him to kiss her, take off her shirt, etc.

I could talk about this stuff all day, but the main point is that the feminists want to make men out to be guilty just by being male, all while twisting facts and lying about rape. They want girls to be victims so that we don't have to play by the same moral rules. Our actions can always be forgiven if we are the victims.

I'm all for moral equality...every person is judged by the same set of moral principles. I just don't think feminism represents that at all.
This. There is a noble idea and there is what dumb people make of it. Two totally different things. And because of the latter, feminism gets so much crap thrown at it :(

...why were SJWs necessary in the first place.
Because this satisfies their, what Freud called, “the desire to be great.”

[Babs]

The issue is that "Legit" feminism in western society is running out of things to focus on. It's shown by the fact that the "Wage gap" is a myth and "Rape culture" is a myth. Feminism succeeded, That's great. It got equality. And now what we're left with are the people who are just looking for something to fight for/over.

Well, that's a terrible generalization, as I know that Men and Women aren't treated 100% equal, but for all intents and purposes, they are.

Here are a few articles with everyday examples of rape culture. These are quite common examples and if you'll google it you will find a shit-ton more.
http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/03/examples-of-rape-culture/

http://www.marshall.edu/wcenter/sexual-assault/rape-culture/

As for the wage gap, I remember a post made by ImCoolBeans from a similar thread a few months back.

I work for a company that often hires females at $0.25 lower per hour. The only time a female is hired at the same rate as a maleiswhen sheisbasically given the job because she knows somebody of importance in the company. What you're saying just isn'ttrue all of the time.

Along with that, racism, homophobia and transphobia are all feminist concerns and those are all still prevalent issues.

[phuckphace]

Shannon Ridgway is from the great flyover state of South Dakota (the one with the monument of presidential heads). In her free time, Shannon enjoys reading, writing, jamming out to ’80s music and Zumba, and she will go to great lengths to find the perfect enchilada.

most feminists will go to great lengths to find many enchiladas

[Vlerchan]

That's great. It got equality.
I figure equalising socialisation with respect to men and woman to be quite important considering the extent it determines their outcomes:

The wage gap exists as a result of differential socialisation:

Until equalised socialisation occurs it's ridiculous to claim that men and woman have equal opportunities.

---

I also figure the 200 seconds-thing to still be quite high.

The 104 seconds-thing also still would work to indicate a rape culture.

[dirtyboxer55]

I figure equalising socialisation with respect to men and woman to be quite important considering the extent it determines their outcomes:

The wage gap exists as a result of differential socialisation:

Until equalised socialisation occurs it's ridiculous to claim that men and woman have equal opportunities.


that will never happen sorry :(

[Vlerchan]

that will never happen sorry :(
As long as we can agree it's an issue.

[Cpt_Cutter]

The wage gap exists as a result of differential socialisation

Off the top of my head I believe I remember reading that the wage gap was false too.

Edit: It is, to an extent. It exists, but no where near a s bad as the 77c to a dollar.Source 1 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christina-hoff-sommers/wage-gap_b_2073804.html) Source 2 (http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303532704579483752909957472)

The 104 seconds-thing also still would work to indicate a rape culture.

And That's fair, it's a sadly high number when you think about it.



http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/03/examples-of-rape-culture/

http://www.marshall.edu/wcenter/sexual-assault/rape-culture/

Your first link is literally the definition of a biased source, and your second lists many things no one actually does I.e. Refusing to take allegations seriously, tolerance of sexual harassment, and not teaching men to not rape. I don't know about you, but no one has ever said to me "It's ok to rape, go for it". Rape is considered one of the worst crimes you can commit in a western society, if that isn't teaching men, and women (You'll notice they left that part out)not to rape, then nothing is.

[Vlerchan]

Off the top of my head I believe I remember reading that the wage gap was false too.
Liberal feminists tend to employ it fallaciously. It's still a useful statistic though:

I discuss it in this post (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3055133&postcount=23 )

And That's fair, it's a sadly high number when you think about it.
Getting back to what was all mentioned earlier:

I think Tumblr's use of provocative terms like "rape culture" is the problem here. It's a needless demonization of men - because all men exist within this shared culture regardless:

It would be much easier of we just accepted that sex crimes are still a major problem - that lots of men and woman have a hard time discussing their experiences - and we develop from that.

[Babs]

Your first link is literally the definition of a biased source, and your second lists many things no one actually does I.e. Refusing to take allegations seriously, tolerance of sexual harassment, and not teaching men to not rape. I don't know about you, but no one has ever said to me "It's ok to rape, go for it". Rape is considered one of the worst crimes you can commit in a western society, if that isn't teaching men, and women (You'll notice they left that part out)not to rape, then nothing is.

I was reluctant to post tge first link but it had good examples of rape culture.
The second link, I have actually seen people do that. It's not in the sense that people are literally saying "go ahead and rape" but most of the time people get away with it by pinning the fault on the victim based upon if they "provoked" their attacker, wore revealing clothes, got drunk, etc.
Rape IS considered one of the worst crimes, when rapists actually get convicted.

[Miserabilia]

I was reluctant to post tge first link but it had good examples of rape culture.


Really? Because a phrase like "rape culture" sounds like something widespread and visible through the most important every day aspects of society. This article starts out with a song from a single school, a "picture meme" and so forth. I aggree that like a whole other lot of bad things in our culture, consent is definetely looked upon the wrong way by many people or pictured wrong in popular media, but I wouldn't call it rape "culture".
It's not a culture that revolves around rape or appreciates it. Rape is still concidered one of the worst crimes by most people.

[sunnieseason]

This. There is a noble idea and there is what dumb people make of it. Two totally different things. And because of the latter, feminism gets so much crap thrown at it :(


Because this satisfies their, what Freud called, “the desire to be great.”


I'm not sure that modern feminism has anything to do with the noble idea of women's suffrage or legal equality. I don't think that a few bad apples have corrupted modern feminism, I think that modern feminism is corrupt as a whole.

The reason I think that is there is no drive for any kind of moral equality. Feminists worry about things like manspreading and the totally bogus "rape culture" meanwhile presenting women as victims of a patriarchy. Feminism is all about pushing an agenda that allows women to be shielded from moral responsibility for their actions, while unloading the burden of their bad choices on men and responsible women.

I was reluctant to post tge first link but it had good examples of rape culture.
The second link, I have actually seen people do that. It's not in the sense that people are literally saying "go ahead and rape" but most of the time people get away with it by pinning the fault on the victim based upon if they "provoked" their attacker, wore revealing clothes, got drunk, etc.
Rape IS considered one of the worst crimes, when rapists actually get convicted.

I think it should be noted that 50 shades of gray is a book about an abusive man abusing a young women who has a traumatized past....sounds rapey to me....but it's written by a woman so it can't be rape culture.

This idea that women are always victims of rapey men is just garbage. Some women put themselves in dangerous situations, they dress like whores, then they get completely black out drunk in huge parties with tons of strangers. I'll go out on a limb and say this, only cause I'm a woman so by definition I can't be sexist (lol)...some women are asking for it!

It's pretty easy to not be raped. Surround yourself with trustworthy family and friends, and avoid stupid and dangerous situations. Oh, and don't fuck shady men.

Posts Merged. Next time, please use the "Edit" button
~Plane And Simple

[Vlerchan]

Feminism is all about pushing an agenda that allows women to be shielded from moral responsibility for their actions, while unloading the burden of their bad choices on men and responsible women.
I blame mainstream culture.

This idea that women are always victims of rapey men is just garbage. Some women put themselves in dangerous situations, they dress like whores, then they get completely black out drunk in huge parties with tons of strangers. I'll go out on a limb and say this, only cause I'm a woman so by definition I can't be sexist (lol)...some women are asking for it!
It sure is interesting to discover you support men raping woman.

[sunnieseason]

I blame mainstream culture.


It sure is interesting to discover you support men raping woman.


You're aggressive tone is rapey. :P If you disagree with me you're a sexist.

[Babs]

Really? Because a phrase like "rape culture" sounds like something widespread and visible through the most important every day aspects of society. This article starts out with a song from a single school, a "picture meme" and so forth. I aggree that like a whole other lot of bad things in our culture, consent is definetely looked upon the wrong way by many people or pictured wrong in popular media, but I wouldn't call it rape "culture".
It's not a culture that revolves around rape or appreciates it. Rape is still concidered one of the worst crimes by most people.

Whether or not you find the word "culture" to be the most accurate way to describe it is irrelevant. Rape "culture" just happened to be the word that was coined.

I think it should be noted that 50 shades of gray is a book about an abusive man abusing a young women who has a traumatized past....sounds rapey to me....but it's written by a woman so it can't be rape culture.

This idea that women are always victims of rapey men is just garbage. Some women put themselves in dangerous situations, they dress like whores, then they get completely black out drunk in huge parties with tons of strangers. I'll go out on a limb and say this, only cause I'm a woman so by definition I can't be sexist (lol)...some women are asking for it!

It's pretty easy to not be raped. Surround yourself with trustworthy family and friends, and avoid stupid and dangerous situations. Oh, and don't fuck shady men.

women can and often do cobtribute to rape culture.
Dressing like a whore o r getting drunk is no reason to blame anyone for being raped. Big no-no.
And being raped by someone you thought you could trust happens more easily than you think.

Honestly, I think that is a gross way of thinking, and one that is often used to justify rape and keep rapists out of prison.

[Karkat]

Just a thought, I feel like people greatly exaggerate bad parts of feminism and social justice. Most ridiculous "SJWs" are trolls and people don't even try to distinguish trolls from people who are serious. Yes, there are people who are completely serious about ridiculous views and whatnot, but most of the time they are trolls.
If you actually take the time to read about legit feminism and whatnot, it's not so "tumblr-y". If you're gonna bitch about online activists, do yourself a favor and recognize when someone's a troll.

I've actually seen veeeeery few online activists who aren't completely hypocritical or batshit.

But then again, I'm largely against activism for the sake of activism. It's a title to so many people, and that's fucking ridiculous.

I think it should be noted that 50 shades of gray is a book about an abusive man abusing a young women who has a traumatized past....sounds rapey to me....but it's written by a woman so it can't be rape culture.

This idea that women are always victims of rapey men is just garbage. Some women put themselves in dangerous situations, they dress like whores, then they get completely black out drunk in huge parties with tons of strangers. I'll go out on a limb and say this, only cause I'm a woman so by definition I can't be sexist (lol)...some women are asking for it!

It's pretty easy to not be raped. Surround yourself with trustworthy family and friends, and avoid stupid and dangerous situations. Oh, and don't fuck shady men.

Yeah, I'd like to see you say this if you actually got raped.

You wouldn't. Do you know how many LITTLE KIDS are raped? Go tell them it's their fault. I dare you to look boys and girls 3-13 in the eyes and say "you're disgusting and dumb for letting this happen to you. It's your fault, and you should be ashamed. It's easy to not get raped, you're just not smart enough. You're a bad person because you let this happen to you."

And what if a family member raped them? They're going to go through life allowing themselves to be abused, because they think that's love.

But no, you're right, rape is nbd and totally the victim's fault. Geez, how pretentious can you get?

Whether or not you find the word "culture" to be the most accurate way to describe it is irrelevant. Rape "culture" just happened to be the word that was coined.



women can and often do cobtribute to rape culture.
Dressing like a whore o r getting drunk is no reason to blame anyone for being raped. Big no-no.
And being raped by someone you thought you could trust happens more easily than you think.

Honestly, I think that is a gross way of thinking, and one that is often used to justify rape and keep rapists out of prison.

Exactly this.

[dirtyboxer55]

Whether or not you find the word "culture" to be the most accurate way to describe it is irrelevant. Rape "culture" just happened to be the word that was coined.



women can and often do cobtribute to rape culture.
Dressing like a whore o r getting drunk is no reason to blame anyone for being raped. Big no-no.
And being raped by someone you thought you could trust happens more easily than you think.

Honestly, I think that is a gross way of thinking, and one that is often used to justify rape and keep rapists out of prison.

i would agree with some of this but she does have a point in that dressing like a whore could increase the chance of getting raped

[Karkat]

i would agree with some of this but she does have a point in that dressing like a whore could increase the chance of getting raped

It's not that it doesn't happen that way so much as that it's a problem

And that people jump to conclusions because of this as well

But fun fact: rape is more about aggression and domination than about sexual drive

So really clothes don't matter much

[Cpt_Cutter]

But no, you're right, rape is nbd and totally the victim's fault. Geez, how pretentious can you get?

You know she put the word SOME at the start of that sentence right? Or did you see an opportunity to create a straw-man argument and run with it hoping no-one would notice?

[Karkat]

You know she put the word SOME at the start of that sentence right? Or did you see an opportunity to create a straw-man argument and run with it hoping no-one would notice?

Nah but I see that you did

"It's pretty easy to not get raped"

Totally screams understanding and compassion for people who have had something traumatizing happen to them.

[Vlerchan]

Whether or not you find the word "culture" to be the most accurate way to describe it is irrelevant. Rape "culture" just happened to be the word that was coined.
It's still misleading and counterintuitive.

i would agree with some of this but she does have a point in that dressing like a whore could increase the chance of getting raped
I agree. It could. It probably doesn't given the nature of rape. But it could.

But then her claim was that these girls "were asking for it" / deserved it.

I'm almost certain she's just trolling at this stage though.

[Cpt_Cutter]

Nah but I see that you did

"It's pretty easy to not get raped"

Totally screams understanding and compassion for people who have had something traumatizing happen to them.

Again, you're strawmanning here. I never said it's easy to not get raped, I didn't comment on the matter in that post at all. She never said it's always the woman's fault, she said it is occasionally partly the woman's fault, for instigating situations that carried out of hand and were affected by sensory inhibitors such as booze.

You want to make a point so badly you're arguing against points no one is making, then acting superior when no one fights for said points.

[Karkat]

Again, you're strawmanning here. I never said it's easy to not get raped, I didn't comment on the matter in that post at all. She never said it's always the woman's fault, she said it is occasionally partly the woman's fault, for instigating situations that carried out of hand and were affected by sensory inhibitors such as booze.

You want to make a point so badly you're arguing against points no one is making, then acting superior when no one fights for said points.

Which is ironic, because from where I stand, that's literally what you're doing.

[Cpt_Cutter]

Which is ironic, because from where I stand, that's literally what you're doing.

You have any examples of this?

[Atom]

Instead of a big response I wanted to write I decided to just say this:
What the hell are you all talking about? Rape is not black and white, every case should be looked into more closely to see whose fault it really was and to what extent!
It seems that you all just want to set an Absolute (victim blaming) and live by it.

[Karkat]

You have any examples of this?

Most of your replies, really

You keep accusing me of accusing her of saying "every" this and "every" that

Did I use a word that was even close? No, I don't think I did.

Also, to clarify, it was her that said "it's easy to not get raped"

If I'm using quotation marks, generally, I am quoting something.

Instead of a big response I wanted to write I decided to just say this:
What the hell are you all talking about? Rape is not black and white, every case should be looked into more closely to see whose fault it really was and to what extent!
It seems that you all just want to set an Absolute (victim blaming) and live by it.

LOL

It is apparent to me that you haven't actually read any of the posts here- there are like 1-2 people victim blaming here

Most of us aren't

Unless you have some impeccable way of misunderstanding sarcasm every time it appears

[Atom]

It is apparent to me that you haven't actually read any of the posts here- there are like 1-2 people victim blaming here.
I've read it all and this is not what I meant.

I didn't say that all of you were victim blaming (or weren't for that matter), I said that everyone here think that you (abstractly. Not particularly you, Karkat) should always blame/not the victim. I say that it can't be black and white and you (abstractly, again) should always study the case more closely to see whose fault it really was. All the cases are different so you can't blame/not the victim all the time.
I hope I made myself clear this time.

[Vlerchan]

I say that it can't be black and white and you (abstractly, again) should always study the case more closely to see whose fault it really was.
Can you describe a case where the rape victim is at fault?

[Atom]

Can you describe a case where the rape victim is at fault?
Where it's 100% victim's fault?
Are you serious? Of course I can't.
You further continue demolishing what I'm trying to say...
It's not black and white.
Here is a fitting example of irresponsible behaviour where there is a decent amount of victim's fault:
get completely black out drunk in huge parties with tons of strangers.
Would you say that it's 100% train driver's fault that he could not stop in time when a drunk man fell on the tracks?

Again, all I'm trying to say is that we can not set as an Absolute whether a victim should be blamed or not.

[Vlerchan]

Where it's 100% victim's fault?
I didn't say that.

I just want to know situations where the victim was at fault at all.

get completely black out drunk in huge parties with tons of strangers.
Ok. If we can determine that the victim is partly at fault here then would it be the case that we would give a more lenient sentence to the part-fault rapist - as compared to if the rapist was at full-fault? I ask because if we are relinquishing the rapist of some responsibility for their actions then it seems correct to relinquish them of the equivalent punishment.

Would you say that it's 100% train driver's fault that he could not stop in time when a drunk man fell on the tracks?
I don't think it's the drivers fault at all.

But then you're describing an accident. Rape isn't an accident.

[Atom]

Ok.
I'm close to giving up on trying to explain what I mean.
I just try to encourage people not to be so bias.
And about your question, even though this is not what I'm talking about: I can't see how this could be implemented into the law and the final verdict.

[Vlerchan]

I'm close to giving up on trying to explain what I mean.
I just try to encourage people not to be so bias.
I understand what you mean:

I'm questioning whether rape victims can ever be at fault:

I'm 'biased'.

And about your question, even though this is not what I'm talking about: I can't see how this could be implemented into the law and the final verdict.
Ok. But would you agree to offering leniency to the person who raped a drunk girl if it was possible to incorporate into the verdict?

It also would be possible. Judges have a significant amount of power in this regard.

[Atom]

you agree to offering leniency to the person who raped a drunk girl if it was possible to incorporate into the verdict?
Depends on whether or not he is drunk as well.
If he is - maybe.
If he isn't - absolutely not.
I like how you present your questions, it feels like I'm the one who's on trial... Delightful, I like it :cool:

[Vlerchan]

If he is - maybe.
I find it strange that when a woman gets drunk the she inherits blame but for a man it's the exact opposite:

Is there a reason this is the case?

If he isn't - absolutely not.
Why?

[Atom]

I find it strange that when a woman gets drunk the she inherits blame but for a man it's the exact opposite:

Is there a reason this is the case?
what

If they are both drunk, then stuff may happen that they will both regret later. Spoiler alert: he rapes her (in our case.)
In this case, In my opinion, they are both to blame. Her, for going to a party, knowing that there will be a lot of drunk guys, who will not have full control of themselves, and get drunk there with them. And him, for not having full control of himself.
I don't say that it's her fault, I say that it's irresponsible behaviour on her part, to get so blindly drunk in an environment like this. She could still have fun and get drunk if she wants, but please think about what could happen and bring a friend, or better two, so they could watch over you.
Why?
Maybe you misunderstood me. I mean if she is drunk and he isn't.
This is just plain assault.

[Vlerchan]

I don't say that it's her fault, I say that it's irresponsible behaviour on her part, to get so blindly drunk in an environment like this.
Ok. So the girl (rape victim) isn't to blame (at fault) at all then?

That's my position.

---

If it turns out I'm misreading I'll respond to the rest if this post.

[Atom]

Ok. So the girl (rape victim) isn't to blame (at fault) at all then?
Define "blame."

[Vlerchan]

Define "blame."
"At fault" in the sense it was used in your previous post.

[Atom]

"At fault" in the sense it was used in your previous post.
The "true" answer would probably be this: she has as much "fault (responsibility for a mistake or an offense)" as the man who got drunk and fell down onto the train tracks. She certainly didn't ask for this, but she made a mistake of being irresponsible.
It's a hard question to answer "yes" or "no" to. If I had to choose from those two options, I would probably have chosen "no," as in "no, it's not her fault."

[phuckphace]

I've actually seen veeeeery few online activists who aren't completely hypocritical or batshit.

But then again, I'm largely against activism for the sake of activism. It's a title to so many people, and that's fucking ridiculous.

gr8 post, here's a gold star: 🌟

can't stress this enough, actually. there's little in the world of politics that annoys me more than slacktivists. most of the time they end up making a joke out of whatever it is they're trying to spread the word about.

[Karkat]

Instead of a big response I wanted to write I decided to just say this:
What the hell are you all talking about? Rape is not black and white, every case should be looked into more closely to see whose fault it really was and to what extent!
It seems that you all just want to set an Absolute (victim blaming) and live by it.

Yes, this makes more sense, thank you

[sunnieseason]

I didn't intent to say that people deserve to be raped, what I was pointing out is that some people put themselves into really dangerous positions. Some women (Don't be stupid, I don't mean all women) really put themselves into very obviously bad situations like going to a party where they don't know anyone, and then getting black out drunk or taking drugs of some sort. Forget rape, that's a dangerous situation for many reasons...you could easily get robbed as well.

You wouldn't get into a car with a drunk driver, so likewise you shouldn't put yourself into a situation where you're going to be in danger.

Some people use trust to manipulate others and can easily rape someone by doing so. I'm not denying that, but what I am saying is that teens and adult women need to be smarter and take responsibility for their own safety. Don't dress like a whore, get black out drunk and go to that frat party! Get to really know your friends, understand their personal histories and really know them. Only you can be responsible for your own safety so maybe you can be more aware of your surroundings.



Ok. If we can determine that the victim is partly at fault here then would it be the case that we would give a more lenient sentence to the part-fault rapist - as compared to if the rapist was at full-fault? I ask because if we are relinquishing the rapist of some responsibility for their actions then it seems correct to relinquish them of the equivalent punishment.

.

I think it's important to understand that rape is an act of aggression, initiating force against a peaceful person. It's not always the case that a man aggresses against a girl. Sometimes the lines are blurred because of drugs or alcohol. If a girl is intoxicated she's not thinking clearly. If she says yes to having sex with the man but then in the morning regrets it, this can't be rape. Especially if the man is also intoxicated.

Rapists should be held accountable for their actions, but you know, it's really hard to determine fault when drugs and alcohol are involved. I don't understand why it's so contraversial for me to say that girls need to be more responsible for their own safety.

Girls are not always the innocent victims. We have self awareness and moral autonomy we should be held responsible for poor decisions we make. Sleeping with someone because your black out drunk and don't know if you consented or not is not always rape. The word rape should be reserved for only the most disgusting acts of violence, not for a girl's sexual regrets.

Posts Merged - Next Time please use the "Edit" Button
~Plane And Simple

[Vlerchan]

If a girl is intoxicated she's not thinking clearly. If she says yes to having sex with the man but then in the morning regrets it, this can't be rape.
I don't believe that intoxicated people can give consent.

I also don't believe that minors can give consent with regards to serious issues too.

Neither are within the right state of mind to do so. The minor as a result of her youth. The intoxicated person as a result of her evaporated reason. To convince consent to serious issues from either is to take advantage of them.

---

I also think that if both parties are intoxicated - ed: to the extent that neither is in their right mind - then it should be a knock-off:

Unless one imposed themselves on another (through force; threat of force) the case is moot.

Rapists should be held accountable for their actions, but you know, it's really hard to determine fault when drugs and alcohol are involved.
That's why we have trials.

Girls are not always the innocent victims. We have self awareness and moral autonomy we should be held responsible for poor decisions we make.
Sure. I've never argued otherwise.

---

I don't understand why it's so contraversial for me to say that girls need to be more responsible for their own safety.
Your wording was less than ideal is the problem.

I don't disagree that woman should look after their own safety.

[sunnieseason]

I don't believe that intoxicated people can give consent.

I also don't believe that minors can give consent with regards to serious issues too.

Neither are within the right state of mind to do so. The minor as a result of her youth. The intoxicated person as a result of her evaporated reason. To convince consent to serious issues from either is to take advantage of them.
.

I agree. I wish that more people treated us like we were intelligent though. Maybe teaching us how to spot predators would be a good way to keep us safe from creeps. Knowledge is power :metal:

[Karkat]

I think it's important to understand that rape is an act of aggression, initiating force against a peaceful person. It's not always the case that a man aggresses against a girl. Sometimes the lines are blurred because of drugs or alcohol. If a girl is intoxicated she's not thinking clearly. If she says yes to having sex with the man but then in the morning regrets it, this can't be rape. Especially if the man is also intoxicated.

Rapists should be held accountable for their actions, but you know, it's really hard to determine fault when drugs and alcohol are involved. I don't understand why it's so contraversial for me to say that girls need to be more responsible for their own safety.

Girls are not always the innocent victims. We have self awareness and moral autonomy we should be held responsible for poor decisions we make. Sleeping with someone because your black out drunk and don't know if you consented or not is not always rape. The word rape should be reserved for only the most disgusting acts of violence, not for a girl's sexual regrets.

But the thing with you, or anyone else saying that is that people begin to look at those things and nitpick someone's rape.

What were you wearing?
Who were you with?
Were you drinking?
Where were you?
Were you being careful?

The answer: it's none of your damn business. You can be dressed like an Amish person or be wearing sweatpants and a hoodie and get raped. You can be with people you thought you trusted while you're sober and still get raped. You can be anywhere and get raped. You can be as careful as possible and get raped.

And even if these things weren't true, it shouldn't have to be anyone's responsibility to spend every second of their lives being paranoid and over vigilant about everything.

There is a mental disorder that is called "generalized anxiety disorder" where people already do that. And it makes you wish you were dead.

Also, the fact that society is prone to judge and blame a woman based on tragedy of any kind (domestic abuse, rape, unwanted pregnancy, miscarriage, etc.), but never point fingers at the man involved (or, you know, read up on it and not be an idiot) means there's a very huge problem.

Whether people like it or not, if you are a woman who gets raped, you will almost always get blamed. The man may or may not ever face any consequences for it.

My rapist sure didn't.

[Atom]

I didn't intent to say that people deserve to be raped, what I was pointing out is that some people put themselves into really dangerous positions.

You wouldn't get into a car with a drunk driver, so likewise you shouldn't put yourself into a situation where you're going to be in danger.

Teens and adult women need to be smarter and take responsibility for their own safety.
Rapists should be held accountable for their actions, but you know, it's really hard to determine fault when drugs and alcohol are involved.

Girls are not always the innocent victims. We have self awareness and moral autonomy we should be held responsible for poor decisions we make.
Exactly my point.
The answer: it's none of your damn business. You can be dressed like an Amish person or be wearing sweatpants and a hoodie and get raped. You can be with people you thought you trusted while you're sober and still get raped. You can be anywhere and get raped. You can be as careful as possible and get raped.

And even if these things weren't true, it shouldn't have to be anyone's responsibility to spend every second of their lives being paranoid and over vigilant about everything.
I agree with you entirely, but I think there is a difference.
Yes, we shouldn't be paranoid in our everyday lives. Just be happy. But you cannot walk into the middle of a warzone and think that you will be fine.
I think that we are talking about two totally different things here.
How to predict it, and how it should be handled when it has already been done (and who to blame, I guess.)
So here is my opinion on this:
If she is drunk and he isn't - it's a plain assault and you can't blame the girl. This is 100% man's fault. Same goes for when he is drunk and she isn't.
If they are both drunk - depends on the situation. If it's a party (like the case that we have talked about so much) then I think it's 75/25 (he/she). But no, we should not blame the girl (tell it to her, I mean. That's what YOU mean, right?), because she's had enough as it is and to add more stress is VERY unadvisable. Rape victims should be morally supported, not blamed and told that it's their fault that it happened to them.
Also, the fact that society is prone to judge and blame a woman based on tragedy of any kind (domestic abuse, rape, unwanted pregnancy, miscarriage, etc.), but never point fingers at the man involved (or, you know, read up on it and not be an idiot) means there's a very huge problem.
"Society" is still made up mostly out of conservative men who have their believes that they won't give up on. So yeah, that's a problem.

[Karkat]

Exactly my point.

I agree with you entirely, but I think there is a difference.
Yes, we shouldn't be paranoid in our everyday lives. Just be happy. But you cannot walk into the middle of a warzone and think that you will be fine.
I think that we are talking about two totally different things here.
How to predict it, and how it should be handled when it has already been done (and who to blame, I guess.)
So here is my opinion on this:
If she is drunk and he isn't - it's a plain assault and you can't blame the girl. This is 100% man's fault. Same goes for when he is drunk and she isn't.
If they are both drunk - depends on the situation. If it's a party (like the case that we have talked about so much) then I think it's 75/25 (he/she). But no, we should not blame the girl (tell it to her, I mean. That's what YOU mean, right?), because she's had enough as it is and to add more stress is VERY unadvisable. Rape victims should be morally supported, not blamed and told that it's their fault that it happened to them.

"Society" is still made up mostly out of conservative men who have their believes that they won't give up on. So yeah, that's a problem.

I do agree, at least mostly.

I feel that trying to put the blame on one party when both were drunk is less split, more impasse, but it's a really tough situation to be in, nonetheless to call.

[sunnieseason]

I'm not blaming girls, I'm just saying that we need to be more careful about throwing around the word "rape." We also need to be more aware that walking into dangerous situations makes us more likely to be raped.

That's not going to stop every rape, I realize that some people manipulate and lie and are just plain psychos. You shouldn't be responsible for being raped by a psycho who manipulated you as a child or just abducted and raped you.

It's like the people who go backpacking in the middle eastern war zones and then end up being kidnapped by terrorists...that was obviously stupid and while they don't deserve to be kidnapped and beheaded, they should have been aware that they were walking into a danger zone. There has to be some responsibility for poor choices.

[Vlerchan]

I wish that more people treated us like we were intelligent though.
This is the entire point of the branch of feminism I've always identified with:

Its mindsets that we need to change.

There has to be some responsibility for poor choices.
What sort of responsibility?

---

I'm also not exactly sure what specific scenario Atom is referring to:

Is it a situation where both are drunk and offer consent - or is it a situation where both are drunk and one imposes violence on the other?

[Atom]

I do agree, at least mostly.
I'm glad that we are on the same page on this one, at least mostly :D :P
Its mindsets that we need to change.
I fully agree, but it seems to me that it often works backwards. People see a movement that does not match their own views and this puts them on the defensive and makes them take the information, that the movement is trying to inform them of, a lot less serious.
I'm also not exactly sure what specific scenario Atom is referring to
This one?
If they are both drunk - depends on the situation. If it's a party (like the case that we have talked about so much) then I think it's 75/25 (he/she).
But no, we should not blame the girl (tell it to her, I mean. That's what YOU mean, right?), because she's had enough as it is and to add more stress is VERY unadvisable. Rape victims should be morally supported, not blamed and told that it's their fault that it happened to them.
She goes to a party, gets drunk, another drunk guy at a party rapes her.
I agree with Karkat on this one.
I feel that trying to put the blame on one party when both were drunk is less split, more impasse, but it's a really tough situation to be in, nonetheless to call.

[sunnieseason]

I mean that people who exercise poor judgement shouldn't always be considered victims, but should be called out for their stupid judgements. Like "thats a terrible situation, but you shouldn't have done that in the first place."

I think it's easy to say that girls are always innocent victims and to just let them get into dangerous situations and instead of shaming the girls, society is just shaming the men and treating them like they are all horrible potential rapists. It's not the girls fault for acting like a slut and getting black out drunk, it's the guy's fault for looking at her or for making a comment, or even for trying to hook up with her too.

It's basically saying that girls can act however they want to act without any consequences. When we should be saying act however you want to, but be aware that your choices have consequences.

I guess I should also bring it back to fat acceptance too. Society is all like "you're fat and you're beautiful, so damn the consequences of being fat and accept me for who i am." That's basically giving a person a pass for stupid judgements.

We should be saying that there are consequences and there is a reason why we should be shamming people. Being fat has terrible health consequences, so as a society we shouldn't be accepting bad choices, we should be shunning it so that people see there are consequences.

Welfare, abortions, subsidies, bail outs, feminism, and stuff is just a way of keeping people from facing the consequences of their poor judgements. That's why these bad behaviors continue, because people make excuses for it and then it becomes normal.

Posts Merged - Next Time please use the "Edit" Button
~Plane And Simple

[Vlerchan]

I fully agree, but it seems to me that it often works backwards. People see a movement that does not match their own views and this puts them on the defensive and makes them take the information, that the movement is trying to inform them of, a lot less serious.
Yes. That is why social movements need to form cultural hegemonies: gain control over the institutions (etc.) which shape public thought - before making a proper attempt to direct change.

She goes to a party, gets drunk, another drunk guy at a party rapes her.
I agree with Karkat on this one.
Ok. That doesn't clear it up a huge amount:

If one uses violent force to impose themselves on another then I consider them in the wrong (100%). Is that relevent?

---

I mean that people who exercise poor judgement shouldn't always be considered victims, but should be called out for their stupid judgements. Like "thats a terrible situation, but you shouldn't have done that in the first place."
If you have created a good education for woman then this shaking ritual shouldn't be required:

I think we should focus on educating people since it tends to be more productive.

Welfare, abortions, subsidies, bail outs, feminism, and stuff is just a way of keeping people from facing the consequences of their poor judgements. That's why these bad behaviors continue, because people make excuses for it and then it becomes normal.
Do you also oppose charities?

---

I also don't think most of the stuff you mentioned is implemented because people think it will make us all more efficient in the long-run. I support all of those things to an extent and never is it because I think it makes us more efficient.

[Karkat]

I guess I should also bring it back to fat acceptance too. Society is all like "you're fat and you're beautiful, so damn the consequences of being fat and accept me for who i am." That's basically giving a person a pass for stupid judgements.

We should be saying that there are consequences and there is a reason why we should be shamming people. Being fat has terrible health consequences, so as a society we shouldn't be accepting bad choices, we should be shunning it so that people see there are consequences.

Welfare, abortions, subsidies, bail outs, feminism, and stuff is just a way of keeping people from facing the consequences of their poor judgements. That's why these bad behaviors continue, because people make excuses for it and then it becomes normal.

...You realize the word "fat" is fairly loaded to begin with, right?

I'm considered "fat" by some because of my dress size. I'm underweight. I just happen to be really big for a woman.

Also, I highly disagree that "shaming" people is a good thing. If there are consequences aside from the "shame", let the consequences speak for themselves- don't pile that judgemental horseshit on top of it.

Plus, that essentially tells people that they're free to be nasty to others because of THEIR perception of a situation without consequences. Because they aren't the party that's suffering.

Ironic.

Also, you know what bad behavior is? Thinking that your view of someone else's life is accurate no matter what and that you shouldn't ever have consequences for being pretentious as fuck.

I'm assuming you have no idea of what it's like to be born into the lower class and be automatically disadvantaged at every turn.

Taking away welfare isn't teaching people to "own up to their actions"- it's appeasing the well-off for being uninformed and pretentious.

It'd make more sense and be more merciful to slaughter everyone who makes under a certain amount or lives in a certain neighborhood. Just murder us all so we won't have to become homeless.

And judging a person for having an abortion is fucking stupid and pretentious. You don't know why they're doing it. They could've been raped, it could be an ectopic pregnancy, maybe the parents couldn't reasonably support a child, maybe a young girl got pregnant and is now facing possible death because her body would be unable to handle a pregnancy.

Americans really like to own the lives of others when they have no right. It's stupid, and can hurt others.

People need to learn to mind their own damn business.

[Atom]

Yes. That is why social movements need to form cultural hegemonies: gain control over the institutions (etc.) which shape public thought - before making a proper attempt to direct change.
Not a fan of revolution here. I remember what it did to Russia... Again, not a fan, at all. Even Putin would agree with me.
+ it would make people even more defensive.
Or are you suggesting doing this in a silent, illuminati like way?
I personally think that "a good education" can solve this problem.
If one uses violent force to impose themselves on another then I consider them in the wrong (100%). Is that relevent?
I agree, but let me try and clear what I was saying one more time. So, the girl goes to a party where she knows will be a lot of other drunk guys, gets drunk there, gets raped by some random drunk guy. The guy is "in the wrong (100%)" but she should have been smart about it and not put herself in a vulnerable situation (get drunk) in an environment (party) where she knows a lot of other guys (who also get drunk) will be present. Can we blame her? No, never blame a victim. Was it foolish what she did? Yes, partially. She should have been more responsible.
We are talking about two different things here.
Should we blame the victim? Never. This is what you're asking, as I understand.
If you have created a good education for woman then this shaking ritual shouldn't be required:

I think we should focus on educating people since it tends to be more productive.
And this what I'm talking about.
"education for woman" sounds... A bit out of hand though, imo.
I think this should be taught in families and not some typical school lection about safety (which, according to statistics, gain close to zero results)
Also, as Karkat said, we shouldn't be afraid to leave our homes because of it.

I hope now it's all clear.

[sunnieseason]

Do you also oppose charities?



Subsidies and charities are not the same thing, but they are similar. Charity is voluntary and subsidies are compelled. So if you fall on hard times you can ask for charity, and people can choose to help you or not. Let's say you constantly make bad decisions, well then people can say "you're a fool, I'm not helping you this time." and then the fool can work hard to wise up. A subsidy is taken by force from other people and is re-distributed to people who "need" it.

I put "need" in quotes because not everyone on welfare is falling on hard times. There is no way of weeding out those that really need the help because of one bad accident, or those who make a living off of poor choices.


Subsidies have no such component of guilt or shame or embarrassment associated with asking for charity, so people are shameless with getting on the public money train.

...You realize the word "fat" is fairly loaded to begin with, right?

I'm considered "fat" by some because of my dress size. I'm underweight. I just happen to be really big for a woman.

Also, I highly disagree that "shaming" people is a good thing. If there are consequences aside from the "shame", let the consequences speak for themselves- don't pile that judgemental horseshit on top of it.

Plus, that essentially tells people that they're free to be nasty to others because of THEIR perception of a situation without consequences. Because they aren't the party that's suffering.

OK, I was wrong about that. I don't want to make people mean or nasty. I agree with you that the consequences should speak for themselves. I should have said that.


Also, you know what bad behavior is? Thinking that your view of someone else's life is accurate no matter what and that you shouldn't ever have consequences for being pretentious as fuck.

I wouldn't tell you how to live your life, you should be free to do what you want and to live with the consequences good or bad. I do know that it is completely immoral to have the state use force to compel other people you don't know to pay for cleaning up your poor choices.

I'm assuming you have no idea of what it's like to be born into the lower class and be automatically disadvantaged at every turn.

Taking away welfare isn't teaching people to "own up to their actions"- it's appeasing the well-off for being uninformed and pretentious.

It'd make more sense and be more merciful to slaughter everyone who makes under a certain amount or lives in a certain neighborhood. Just murder us all so we won't have to become homeless.

I forget what they call this logical fallacy, but basically you're creating a very over dramatic misrepresentation of what I was saying so that you make my argument look bad instead of dealing with the content.

It is Immoral to use force, violence, and coercion to make people pay for something against their will. That's pretty much raping them in the wallet...or enslaving them. You're making them work so that their hard earned money can be re-distributed to someone else..deserving or undeserving.

As I said before, I don't have a problem with voluntary charity.

You don't know me, don't know my life story so telling me I don't know what it feels like to go through hard times is just a nasty personal barb.

And judging a person for having an abortion is fucking stupid and pretentious. You don't know why they're doing it. They could've been raped, it could be an ectopic pregnancy, maybe the parents couldn't reasonably support a child, maybe a young girl got pregnant and is now facing possible death because her body would be unable to handle a pregnancy. .

This argument isn't about you and your life, so chill out. It's not personal. Abortions due to complicated pregnancies, rape, or because the mom might die are extremely rare cases. I wouldn't be against those, but that's not the reason why most women have abortions.

Abortion is terminating a life, and pregnancy (not because of rape) is completely avoidable. (Again forget rape) you can completely avoid getting pregnant...so you know what, it is disgusting to just decide to kill a life because you got stupid and got knocked up on spring break.

Also, I find it funny that people who argue for abortion can only do so because they themselves have not been aborted.

My mom chose to keep me alive, and I'm grateful for it.

Posts Merged - Next Time please use the "Edit" Button
~Plane And Simple

[Karkat]

OK, I was wrong about that. I don't want to make people mean or nasty. I agree with you that the consequences should speak for themselves. I should have said that.



I wouldn't tell you how to live your life, you should be free to do what you want and to live with the consequences good or bad. I do know that it is completely immoral to have the state use force to compel other people you don't know to pay for cleaning up your poor choices.



I forget what they call this logical fallacy, but basically you're creating a very over dramatic misrepresentation of what I was saying so that you make my argument look bad instead of dealing with the content.

It is Immoral to use force, violence, and coercion to make people pay for something against their will. That's pretty much raping them in the wallet...or enslaving them. You're making them work so that their hard earned money can be re-distributed to someone else..deserving or undeserving.

As I said before, I don't have a problem with voluntary charity.

You don't know me, don't know my life story so telling me I don't know what it feels like to go through hard times is just a nasty personal barb.



This argument isn't about you and your life, so chill out. It's not personal. Abortions due to complicated pregnancies, rape, or because the mom might die are extremely rare cases. I wouldn't be against those, but that's not the reason why most women have abortions.

Abortion is terminating a life, and pregnancy (not because of rape) is completely avoidable. (Again forget rape) you can completely avoid getting pregnant...so you know what, it is disgusting to just decide to kill a life because you got stupid and got knocked up on spring break.

Also, I find it funny that people who argue for abortion can only do so because they themselves have not been aborted.

My mom chose to keep me alive, and I'm grateful for it.

It's not an exaggeration. The lower class gets fucked in the ass constantly due to "rich" people.

And I honestly don't feel sorry for anyone who can afford to dole out half a mil to a house and 30-50k a car, send their kids to college to get a degree they'll never use to pay a little more in taxes so someone else can eat and have a home.

People do not voluntarily give money to those in need in most cases. Maybe if they feel others will view them badly, but it's rare that they'll do it out of the kindness of their heart. People just don't care.

Ah yes, I feel totally compelled to listen to someone who hasn't even reached high school age making this argument.

Married people have abortions too. Or perhaps it's a couple who isn't in a financially stable situation.

Are you against sex that isn't for the purpose of procreation as well?

[sunnieseason]

Karkat,

You're out of control. I'm not going to argue with you if you're just going to dismiss me because I'm young. I'm also not going to engage with you if you're going to just misrepresent my positions with exaggerated arguments from emotion.

I just looked up the logical fallacies:

Appeal to emotion: "You attempted to manipulate an emotional response in place of a valid or compelling argument"
Straw Man: "Misrepresenting someone's argument to make it easier to attack"

"Oh you don't like welfare, therefore you want everyone to starve"

[Karkat]

Karkat,

You're out of control. I'm not going to argue with you if you're just going to dismiss me because I'm young. I'm also not going to engage with you if you're going to just misrepresent my positions with exaggerated arguments from emotion.

I just looked up the logical fallacies:

Appeal to emotion: "You attempted to manipulate an emotional response in place of a valid or compelling argument"
Straw Man: "Misrepresenting someone's argument to make it easier to attack"

"Oh you don't like welfare, therefore you want everyone to starve"

Essentially, without welfare, a LOT of people WOULD starve.

That's not appealing to emotions, that's using common sense. You've never once acted like you had an ounce of sympathy for the lower class, and you've never countered my argument with anything better.

How about you come up with a solution that doesn't involve "just dealing with it"? Because it isn't an option, trust me.

I wasn't trying to "appeal to emotions" when I said that slaughtering the lower class would be better. I was being frank. Half of us would be homeless and starving, with no way out.

I'm dismissing you because you're young because you don't have enough life experience to fully grasp how life in the adult world works. I'm not being prejudiced or condescending, I'm being realistic.

You are not old enough to have a job, support yourself, live on your own. You can teach yourself through secondhand experience how these things work, but you will never understand fully until you do it yourself.

I would hope at your age that you haven't had a serious sexual relationship yet. Therefore, it's a little irritating for you to press your ideas on people who know much more about these things than you.

Yes, I'm attacking your argument because of your age- but for a logical reason.

It's not that you shouldn't have a voice, it's that you need to be realistic. It's easy to get carried away with what you think you know and can contribute when you're smart and young- been there, done that.

But when you're my age, you'll probably look back on opinions you've had and think "I was actually kinda wrong about that".

I'd actually be pretty surprised if you don't. I know I probably sound like a "mom" right now, but I'm just speaking from experience- I'VE reached this conclusion.

I'm not trying to make it a personal attack, I'm just saying- be reasonable. You're thirteen, you're smart, but you don't know everything.

I may not know everything either, but I am an adult, and I do know a little more about economical and sexual things.

It's just life.

[tasminsmith]

I disagree with fat acceptance, no hate but everyone can lose weight and it's is unhealthy.. leading to a heart attack.
unnatural, what wild animal do you see that is obese.
unsightly, as I said before no hate but extreme obesity isn't the prettiest thing.
unpractical, it just makes life more uncomftorble for you and those around you.
srsly no hate but lose weight.
everyone can do it so unless you have a thyroid problem or other health problem that prevents weight loss then there is no excuse for being overweight.

and loads of popular songs encourage being fat and it's totally fucked up like wtf. like Meghan trainor saying don't worry if you're fat like nah blood clots and heart attack aren't a thing to worry about. and nicki minaj "fuck all them skinny bitches" like wtf being fat isn't a good thing

Double post merged ~ Mike/ImCoolBeans

[amgb]

I don't have an account on Tumblr or any other social networking website, so I can't say I've seen the full blow of these issues into the mass media, however I do have some thoughts on this.

Now here's the idea SJW (pretends to) be based on.
image (http://kathyescobar.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/equality-vs-justice.jpg)

This image is the perfect example of the representation of social justice compared to social equality. Equality is not the same as justice. Equality is not always fair; a homeless person and a billionaire could both be given twenty dollars, they are each receiving an equal opportunity to receive an equal amount of money, but to the homeless person this would not be a fair situation.

I get that in the past, being white was a "privilege" because they held more superiority above the indigenous aboriginal race and probably for other reasons too, but this is nowadays. This is a time where we are slowly and gradually but undoubtedly trying to bring an end to racial prejudice and inequality. And it's not just racial inequality we're improving on, I'm talking about education inequality, economic inequality, gender inequality, and essentially the inequality in society in general that still exists today.

Third wave feminism focusses on several issues; for example a small one being protection of women against the labelling of derogatory and defamatory terms and a much larger one being protection of women against violence and rape and providing access for them to contraception and abortion. As for the latter, which is being intensely debated here, I strongly agree women should be given rights associated to pregnancy and I'm pretty sure many others (especially women themselves) would agree. It is their body and if they, for any reason do not feel that they can rear a child then they have a right to terminate their pregnancy. The child would have lost a chance to live, but it saves them suffering a life where their mother cannot raise them properly because of whatever circumstances there may be, and this is my opinion.

Now - bullying. I'm hearing all the time all around me the demeaning words that are being thrown and stabbed at young women who most of the time, if not all of the time, have done nothing to deserve this treatment. There is no rule in the book that says girls who reveal too much of their body or cake on make-up are definitely sluts or whores. A girl should be able to dress themselves however they like without being prone to stereotypical ideas that the way they dress makes them look like a slut or a whore. However, there needs to be a limit where we say 'okay, that's inappropriate', for example a girl in public wearing long pants, but they have no top on at all. Anyhow, I understand that girls who 'dress like a slut or whore' are easier targets for rape, but we also need to understand just because they dress like that it does not mean they want attention or sex. It draws attention to them but they are not necessarily dressing to impress. My concluded opinion: women should be able to live a life free of discrimination and any kind of abuse.

I think we definitely need to improve the stigma around fat people. Fatness is a lot of the times actually about self-perception. Someone with a healthy weight may see themselves as obese, while someone else who is slightly heavier may not see themselves as fat. However, in the general public we certainly all have an idea in our heads of what a typical overly fat person looks like. I know plenty of people who aren't of an 'appealing' weight but there is nothing wrong with them, they are human beings who deserve fair treatment and acceptance like everyone else, and I actually know them as very happy people too. I'm not saying that all fat people are happy people, in fact mental health problems such as depression can arise from being overweight and vice versa, depressed people can become overweight too. Obesity also leads to serious physical health problems.

I hate the fact that the majority of overweight people are being shunned and judged terribly in the narrow-minded thinking that they are irresponsible around their physical health. Yes, they are irresponsible. But how can we expect them to be responsible when hate and judgement is constantly being thrown at them? How is someone supposed to feel power and control over their life if they are being abused and discriminated against? Also, I recently watched something on the news (can't remember what or when) that fat dancers are slowly being accepted into the community as well. The body of a dancer is stereotypically seen as a beautiful, slim, thin, very fit and strong and possibly muscular figure. The thought of dancers being fat would probably shock people, but it's okay to be a dancer and fat. It's okay to be overweight, so long as everyone does something positive about it. Although it is their own choice at the end of the day whether or not they do something about it, maybe if everyone stopped making them feel horrible about their weight maybe, I'm not saying definitely, but maybe that will help them at least a little to start living more healthier lifestyles.

[Vlerchan]

Or are you suggesting doing this in a silent, illuminati like way?
I personally think that "a good education" can solve this problem.
Both of these.

Except without all the conspirital undertones.

I agree, but let me try and clear what I was saying one more time. So, the girl goes to a party where she knows will be a lot of other drunk guys, gets drunk there, gets raped by some random drunk guy. The guy is "in the wrong (100%)" but she should have been smart about it and not put herself in a vulnerable situation (get drunk) in an environment (party) where she knows a lot of other guys (who also get drunk) will be present. Can we blame her? No, never blame a victim. Was it foolish what she did? Yes, partially. She should have been more responsible.
We are talking about two different things here.
Should we blame the victim? Never. This is what you're asking, as I understand.
OK. We're not in disagreement.

I think this should be taught in families and not some typical school lection about safety (which, according to statistics, gain close to zero results)
I think it should be thought wherever it's producing the best results:

If that's families then that's cool.

---

Subsidies and charities are not the same thing, but they are similar. Charity is voluntary and subsidies are compelled. So if you fall on hard times you can ask for charity, and people can choose to help you or not. Let's say you constantly make bad decisions, well then people can say "you're a fool, I'm not helping you this time." and then the fool can work hard to wise up. A subsidy is taken by force from other people and is re-distributed to people who "need" it.
You're using quite a narrow definition of subsidy here.

It also refers to a grant for firms and not individual welfare:

Regardless the criticism has now jumped from subsidising failure to opposing violence in all its forms.

I put "need" in quotes because not everyone on welfare is falling on hard times. There is no way of weeding out those that really need the help because of one bad accident, or those who make a living off of poor choices.
Ok. Since I support welfare for a number of other reason - eg: stabilising aggregate demand; lubricating labour flows; maintaining law and order - I don't care if some small contingent of welfare users don't 'deserve' it.

Subsidies have no such component of guilt or shame or embarrassment associated with asking for charity, so people are shameless with getting on the public money train.
Please provide verifiable evidence supporting this claim. Thank you.

I wouldn't tell you how to live your life, you should be free to do what you want and to live with the consequences good or bad.
Why should people be free like this?

---

It's also notable that "being free" still requires I remain within the confines of the NAP. You like rules just as much as I do.

It is Immoral to use force, violence, and coercion to make people pay for something against their will.
You forgot to include the "in my opinion" clause.
I don't believe this. I doubt most people on Earth do.

[Babs]

I disagree with fat acceptance, no hate but everyone can lose weight and it's is unhealthy.. leading to a heart attack.
unnatural, what wild animal do you see that is obese.
unsightly, as I said before no hate but extreme obesity isn't the prettiest thing.
unpractical, it just makes life more uncomftorble for you and those around you.
srsly no hate but lose weight.
everyone can do it so unless you have a thyroid problem or other health problem that prevents weight loss then there is no excuse for being overweight.

It's not easy to lose weight.
Obviously we should't pretend that obesity is healthy but not making people feel like shit for being overweight is setting the bar pretty low when it comes to being decent to other people. A little compassion goes a long way.

[tasminsmith]

It's not easy to lose weight.
Obviously we should't pretend that obesity is healthy but not making people feel like shit for being overweight is setting the bar pretty low when it comes to being decent to other people. A little compassion goes a long way.

im not saying that it easy and it I know it's hard i'm not saying they should feel like shit but it's wrong to see a lifestyle like that as acceptable

[Babs]

im not saying that it easy and it I know it's hard i'm not saying they should feel like shit but it's wrong to see a lifestyle like that as acceptable

No one sees it as acceptable, but some people can't help it. Pretty sure a song essentially saying "youre not disgusting or ugly just because you're fat" isn't going to be the end of all healthy lifestyles.

[tasminsmith]

No one sees it as acceptable, but some people can't help it. Pretty sure a song essentially saying "youre not disgusting or ugly just because you're fat" isn't going to be the end of all healthy lifestyles.

lmao obviously it wouldn't just it shouldn't be condoned and as I said if you had a thyroid problem etc that made it extreamley difficult to lose weight then there isn't much they can do to change it

[sunnieseason]

You're using quite a narrow definition of subsidy here.

It also refers to a grant for firms and not individual welfare:

Regardless the criticism has now jumped from subsidising failure to opposing violence in all its forms.

Ok, great...propose a definition of subsidy then.

Anytime the government takes money from one group of people to give to another group of people violence is used. Mostly it's just the threat of violence, but if you resist the tax, they will come and take you away, or they will just take your stuff anyway. In the US taxes are taken out of people's paychecks without consent.


Ok. Since I support welfare for a number of other reason - eg: stabilising aggregate demand; lubricating labour flows; maintaining law and order - I don't care if some small contingent of welfare users don't 'deserve' it.


Please provide verifiable evidence supporting this claim. Thank you.


What on earth are you talking about? Anytime that force is used to redistribute money you end up with false economic signals. It's called the broken window fallacy. If you break windows you may be creating jobs for the glass maker, but you're just taking the money from people who would have spent it on other things and now forcing them to use it on glass. redistribution by means of force is not going to accurately reflect demand.

"Lubricating labor flows" LOL! Seriously, that was funny.



It's also notable that "being free" still requires I remain within the confines of the NAP. You like rules just as much as I do.


You forgot to include the "in my opinion" clause.
I don't believe this. I doubt most people on Earth do.

First of all, I know you're trolling me so I'm not really going to respond to you seriously. If you want to spark a debate or some kind of thought process then you should re-think your approach.

[Vlerchan]

Ok, great...propose a definition of subsidy then.
A grant to a firm.

It needn't be offered by the government. It might be offered within the context of a co-operative federation.

Anytime the government takes money from one group of people to give to another group of people violence is used.
Ok. I'll be blunt because it isn't seeming to have an impact otherwise:

I literally do not care on any level.

It's called the broken window fallacy. If you break windows you may be creating jobs for the glass maker, but you're just taking the money from people who would have spent it on other things and now forcing them to use it on glass.
It's the case that most excess profits are pumped into inflated financial derivatives that help no-one - it just creates an inflated sense of economic growth: which is the reason financial deregulation occured. Poorer people have a larger marginal propensity to consume to so it's better if there's more cash in their pockets: it'll be spread around as opposed to burrowed:

If there's high demand for capital then that burrowed cash might turn to investment but since investment is based on expectations an existing consumer class is a perquisite.

---

Since I don't believe markets attain equilibrium - and if it happens: it's brief - the false signals argument isn't going to work on me in general: stickiness (of prices and wages) ensures against markets being perfect co-ordinaters so government need intervene.

"Lubricating labor flows" LOL! Seriously, that was funny.
Ok. This isn't an argument.

First of all, I know you're trolling me so I'm not really going to respond to you seriously.
I'm not.

You claim to want people to be free so long as these people operate within the NAP.

You claim that your morals are the correct morals despite so few people coming to this conclusion.

The first claim is a double-standard. The second claim is just false.

[phuckphace]

lmao obviously it wouldn't just it shouldn't be condoned and as I said if you had a thyroid problem etc that made it extreamley difficult to lose weight then there isn't much they can do to change it

the "thyroid" excuse is an oldie but goodie. gluttons will find anything to blame but their own lack of willpower when it comes to obesity. yeah every other person suddenly has a "thyroid problem" now :lol3: I'd say the problem is located in the hands that grab the burgers.

[dirtyboxer55]

It's not easy to lose weight.
Obviously we should't pretend that obesity is healthy but not making people feel like shit for being overweight is setting the bar pretty low when it comes to being decent to other people. A little compassion goes a long way.

im not saying that it easy and it I know it's hard i'm not saying they should feel like shit but it's wrong to see a lifestyle like that as acceptable

actually i think it is pretty easy to lose weight. just dont eat more than you can burn. im cutting weight right now and its not that hard, hunger pangs go away after like 30 minutes anyways

[phuckphace]

actually i think it is pretty easy to lose weight. just dont eat more than you can burn. im cutting weight right now and its not that hard, hunger pangs go away after like 30 minutes anyways

check your thyroid privilege

[Babs]

actually i think it is pretty easy to lose weight. just dont eat more than you can burn. im cutting weight right now and its not that hard, hunger pangs go away after like 30 minutes anyways

Lucky you then. Other people's bodies are different.

[Miserabilia]

Lucky you then. Other people's bodies are different.

So you're telling me the extremely dramatic increase of obesity and obesity related diseases in the past 50 years is not the result of unhealthy and execcisve eating, but condishuns?

I agrree that it's not always right to generalize, but in almost all cases obesity is a simple result of execcive unhealthy eating.
Fat acceptence stands for letting people accept their bodies and always uses the eating disorders as argument, while eating disorders are fairly uncommon and obesity is one of the biggest most life threatening problems in western society. In a way, fat symphathy is more dangerous than body shaming because it enables them to feel comfortable in a body that is dying.

[Babs]

So you're telling me the extremely dramatic increase of obesity and obesity related diseases in the past 50 years is not the result of unhealthy and execcisve eating, but condishuns?

I agrree that it's not always right to generalize, but in almost all cases obesity is a simple result of execcive unhealthy eating.
Fat acceptence stands for letting people accept their bodies and always uses the eating disorders as argument, while eating disorders are fairly uncommon and obesity is one of the biggest most life threatening problems in western society. In a way, fat symphathy is more dangerous than body shaming because it enables them to feel comfortable in a body that is dying.

People know obesity is unhealthy. I just think people shouldn't be a dick about people's weight and be a bit more compassionate. I don't think that's a ridiculous idea.

[phuckphace]

http://i.imgur.com/HyHaYP2.png

[Descene]

I'm a tumblr person but I have little exposure to the other topics. As someone going into health care though, I think there's a lot of misunderstanding on the "fat acceptance" terminology.

Thread is tl;dr but can we establish it isn't praising obesity but self-acceptance? Having recovered from ED, I know positive body image is crucial to that process. You have to believe you are valuable, that your body deserves to be treated well. The message isn't "keep downing those cheeseburgers cause you are beautiful, babe," it's "you are a valuable human being who deserves health and happiness." The point isn't glorification of any one body type, but to end extreme shaming coming from peers and the self. All that accomplishes is deeper depression and abysmal self-esteem. You know, carbohydrates are linked to the production of serotonin (neurotransmitter that regulates mood, appetite, sleep, etc, a lack of which is a common cause of depression) in the brain, which is a reason why emotional eating is a prevalent symptom and coping mechanism of depression. We've been cruel to overweight people for a long time, and meanwhile obesity rates have skyrocketed as well as instances of anorexia and other disordered eating in young people having increased. At the very least, can we deduce that body shaming and bullying isn't resolving the problem?

[Babs]

I'm a tumblr person but I have little exposure to the other topics. As someone going into health care though, I think there's a lot of misunderstanding on the "fat acceptance" terminology.

Thread is tl;dr but can we establish it isn't praising obesity but self-acceptance? Having recovered from ED, I know positive body image is crucial to that process. You have to believe you are valuable, that your body deserves to be treated well. The message isn't "keep downing those cheeseburgers cause you are beautiful, babe," it's "you are a valuable human being who deserves health and happiness." The point isn't glorification of any one body type, but to end extreme shaming coming from peers and the self. All that accomplishes is deeper depression and abysmal self-esteem. You know, carbohydrates are linked to the production of serotonin (neurotransmitter that regulates mood, appetite, sleep, etc, a lack of which is a common cause of depression) in the brain, which is a reason why emotional eating is a prevalent symptom and coping mechanism of depression. We've been cruel to overweight people for a long time, and meanwhile obesity rates have skyrocketed as well as instances of anorexia and other disordered eating in young people having increased. At the very least, can we deduce that body shaming and bullying isn't resolving the problem?

This is what I'm trying to say.
But apparently it's absurd...

[Horizon]

Things I hate:

-Most of what Tumblr dishes out, yeah

But also

-A lot of arguments against Tumblr ideals...

Which is funny, because you'd think I'd agree. But it seems like there is neither logic nor middle ground. Dan, yours is the only opinion (didn't really read most of the replies on this, and the ones I did I disagreed with) I've really seen that isn't completely irrational and out of left-field. (Not left-WING as in liberal, left-FIELD as in what the hell was that)

As someone who is mentally ill, physically disabled, LGBT twice over, PoC, AND biologically a woman (ntm poor, "fat", blah blah blah), you'd think I'd be perfectly safe on Tumblr.

...Do you know how many times I've been told to kill myself?

I have been told that I am:

-Too white/light-skinned
-Too straight
-Too compliant to the gender binary
-Too ableist (Tumblr has made me despise that word)
-Racist
-Sexist
-Homophobic/transphobic
-Too able-bodied to be considered disabled
-Not medically validated enough to be mentally ill
-Worthless
-Too skinny, ugly
-Ugly
-THE LIST GOES ON

...I was on Tumblr for a solid 3ish months, and I had MAYBE 40 followers.

?????????????? WHY.

So yeah, I have a seething hatred of Tumblr ideology.

But then, when I hear the OPPOSING side:

-Women should have no rights
-Women's rights are a joke
-Trans people are weird
-Gay people make too big of a deal out of everything
-Racism isn't an issue
-The gender "binary" should be upheld. It's called ACTING LIKE YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO
-If you even think anything Tumblr says is right, or even close, you're uptight, obnoxious, and crazy, and you should not breed
-Rape jokes are funny!!!
-Sexism isn't an issue. At least, not against women. Women have too much going for them! What about men's rights??
-The disabled are weird, lazy, lying, and always a good punchline to a joke
-Mental illness makes you a freak
-Go kill yourself haha
-You're unattractive because there is a STANDARD, and you don't meet it
-You're disgusting, go eat a salad
-THE LIST
-GOES
-ON

I'M GENUINELY NOT SURE WHICH SIDE I HATE MORE.

What kills me most at the moment, I think, especially personally, is this weeeeeird din around body size, and loving your body because IT'S YOUR BODY.

-Eating disorders mean that you are weak and fake
-Being "fat" means you're disgusting, and it's always your fault
-You HAVE to be between sizes 4 and 10, or you're not good enough
-Even then, 6-8. Golden number.
-But if you're a teen, it's more like oh, 00
-No one is safe
-No one can love themselves
-Everyone MUST hate their bodies and spend countless hours obsessing, and trying to improve themselves- not for their health

But for

SOCIETY

WHAT. THE. FUCK.


STOP.

NO.

I am done with it all. As someone who has BARELY started to accept that I have a problem in the form of a possible eating disorder, this is LITERALLY KILLING ME

IMAGINE THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN HOSPITALIZED FOR IT.

And I'm not just talking about those "sickly" girls who you look at and immediately think "anorexia" (which is pretty presumptuous.)

"Fat" girls can have eating disorders too.

FAT. GIRLS. CAN. HATE. THEIR. BODIES. TOO.

So while I feel that ignoring your health is AWFUL, hating our bodies is NOT THE ANSWER.

But when society promotes not only hating OUR bodies, but everyone else's- and making their bodies our business, and our bodies everyone else's, the world becomes SO TOXIC, because no one ever feels any semblance of confidence.

We can't have happiness, can we?

We must ALWAYS. Hate. Ourselves.

As someone who is simultaneously "too fat", and "too skinny", my head spins every time I see the words "fat acceptance", because I know an anxiety attack is about to come on.

Forgive me if I sound pretentious, but

Shouldn't that be a HUGE fucking red flag?

I agree with you so much in your reply, I just had to quote it so you could know!

And I'm a feminist, yes. but I kinda feel like the type of feminist that actually falls into the moderate section, not right, or left.

I believe that men and women, of all races, of all gender identities, of all weights, have advantages and disadvantages compared to everyone else depending on the circumstance. Such as, if you're a man you're likely to spend a good amount of jail time for a crime, where if you're a woman you'll spend less time for the same crime. And I mean there is a lot of examples for all sorts of situations, I could go on.

I think a lot of people don't realize that Feminism, and the Men's Right's Movement, are now being run by extremists and radicals and it's why neither one is accomplishing much. Last time I remember Feminism raising a significant amount of money for anything, was to stop 'Man Spreading' on the bus. Just like I see more and more MRAs just attack Feminism, and vice versa.

Funny, I was told I oppress women automatically for having this next opinion: I don't care if you're a feminist or not, like me, I just care if you have are a good person' which is an argument that was apparently created by the patriarchy to literally destroy Feminism. I was told word for word that by my best friend. Too me that just sounds like conspiracy theorism, and sorry to burst people's bubbles, not that many people, definitely not a whole society, is that obsessed with your existence.

And when it comes to the SJW movement on tumblr? It quickly, very quickly, took the same turn as Feminism and the MRM. It was quickly overrun and taken over by extremists and now is going absolutely nowhere. People tend to run in circles over their own hypocrisies over racism, sexism, homophobia, and transphobia. It even allows a bastardization of homosexuality and transgender/transexual folk alike in the name of 'not offending anyone.' And they, along with extremist Feminists, have taken a liking to 'Doxxing' people which is putting out all of their personal information, such as legal name, address, credit card info, social security number, etc. out there for people to ruin their lives. Why? Because they disagreed with them or made a bad joke.

And as for the fatphobia/fat acceptance? It's also something that's being represented by extremists. I am not skinny by any means of the word, and I deal with a lot of confidence issues because of it. I know there are many men, women, and gender neutral people who share my feelings. And may I remind people, that MENTAL and PHYSICAL health are in close ties in some respects. So if you react negatively to someone that is not skinny, you're not going to help them what-so-ever. I can understand why we need to raise flags about how weight can affect health, but it's not really just anyones place to do that. And the fat acceptance movement started because it was just trying to let people know they weren't ugly or worthless or bad because they had extra body fat. The exact reason that I am obese today is because I was made to feel bad about my self image by family/bullies. So I just didn't care and let myself go. Now tell me exactly how is continuing to treat me and many other people that way, going to help us when it's the exact reason we're obese in the first place? And tell me how it's your business to judge anyone for any reason anyways?

Also sorry to the person i quoted, I know only a small section of this post was directed at you, so I feel a bit bad for making such a long one.

[Karkat]

@Horizon It's ok- I don't mind reading :D

I absolutely agree by the way

[Miserabilia]

This is what I'm trying to say.
But apparently it's absurd...



Thread is tl;dr but can we establish it isn't praising obesity but self-acceptance? Having recovered from ED, I know positive body image is crucial to that process. You have to believe you are valuable, that your body deserves to be treated well. The message isn't "keep downing those cheeseburgers cause you are beautiful, babe," it's "you are a valuable human being who deserves health and happiness." The point isn't glorification of any one body type, but to end extreme shaming coming from peers and the self. All that accomplishes is deeper depression and abysmal self-esteem. You know, carbohydrates are linked to the production of serotonin (neurotransmitter that regulates mood, appetite, sleep, etc, a lack of which is a common cause of depression) in the brain, which is a reason why emotional eating is a prevalent symptom and coping mechanism of depression. We've been cruel to overweight people for a long time, and meanwhile obesity rates have skyrocketed as well as instances of anorexia and other disordered eating in young people having increased. At the very least, can we deduce that body shaming and bullying isn't resolving the problem?

Having recovered from an ED you probably know the difference between healthy and unhealthy eating habbits and rituals.
Being an intelligent person you'd probably know that people get obese (fat) because of bad eating habbits, whether it's emotional eating, compulsive eating, etc.

A healthy body is a body low on fat and high on muscle. It's the way your body can operate best, unless there are conditions that prevent this.
Being overweight and having that much fat is NOT healthy and praising it, even as body positivity, is not beneficial. Fat acceptence should mean fat acceptence, as in the fat that practicaly everyone has a little of. Not fat as in overweight.

The focus in body positivity should be to keep your body in a state that will support you and your mental health by being in a healthy shape, regardless of what tha shape is. By that I mean, no matter what places you keep a little too much fat or muscle, no matter what the shape of your nose or forehead or knees or feet are. Not the amount of actual fat. I don't see why focus should ly in obesity, one of the highest causes of death.

""you are a valuable human being who deserves health and happiness.""
Seems ironic to support fat (obesity) acceptence. If you think they deserve health, you should be telling them to work out, not to praise their bodies.

Not to mention fat acceptence is a movement found on body this, body that. It puts even more focus on the physical instead of the movement behind it.
Why is it that obesity either has to be disgusting, or a "beautiful body that deserves to be worshipped" (literal quote from tumblr).
Why can't obesity be about people that deserve to be treated like people but are putting their bodies into an extremely dangerous state.

The reason people are cruel to obese people is because obesity numbers have skyrocketed, not the other way around. Disgust is a normal and healthy reaction to seeing the many rolls of fat of an obese person. It's like seeing someone with a giant growth on their face, people would automaticaly feel a repulsion regardless of the person.
I'm not saying that's moraly justifiable, but it's a normal human reaction. In any case it should be a factor in convincing obese people to help with their problem.

People with a normal weight will not get the reaction obese people get and will less likely have an ED triggered. IF an obese person get's an eating disorder it's the result of getting slowly up to a point of a body AND mind becoming unhealthier because of their obesity.

And though I hate to say it, rising recorded eating disorder numbers don't mean that much. FIrst of all, more people have acces to or dare to seek help for mental problems which is why they are registered into these kind of statistics. Secondly, the way we see food and our relation with food has changed drasticly, which is caused by and also fuels the obesity problem.
The reason eating disorders are more prevalent might even be because of obesity in the first place, which is why it's even more ridiculous to praise obese bodies.

--------

tl;dr


Yes, accept fat. Also accept muscle. Accept the shape of people's bone structure. Don't accept something as dangerous for both the individual as society like obesity.

[DoodleSnap]

Things I hate:

-Most of what Tumblr dishes out, yeah

But also

-A lot of arguments against Tumblr ideals...

Which is funny, because you'd think I'd agree. But it seems like there is neither logic nor middle ground. Dan, yours is the only opinion (didn't really read most of the replies on this, and the ones I did I disagreed with) I've really seen that isn't completely irrational and out of left-field. (Not left-WING as in liberal, left-FIELD as in what the hell was that)

As someone who is mentally ill, physically disabled, LGBT twice over, PoC, AND biologically a woman (ntm poor, "fat", blah blah blah), you'd think I'd be perfectly safe on Tumblr.

...Do you know how many times I've been told to kill myself?

I have been told that I am:

-Too white/light-skinned
-Too straight
-Too compliant to the gender binary
-Too ableist (Tumblr has made me despise that word)
-Racist
-Sexist
-Homophobic/transphobic
-Too able-bodied to be considered disabled
-Not medically validated enough to be mentally ill
-Worthless
-Too skinny, ugly
-Ugly
-THE LIST GOES ON

...I was on Tumblr for a solid 3ish months, and I had MAYBE 40 followers.

?????????????? WHY.

So yeah, I have a seething hatred of Tumblr ideology.

But then, when I hear the OPPOSING side:

-Women should have no rights
-Women's rights are a joke
-Trans people are weird
-Gay people make too big of a deal out of everything
-Racism isn't an issue
-The gender "binary" should be upheld. It's called ACTING LIKE YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO
-If you even think anything Tumblr says is right, or even close, you're uptight, obnoxious, and crazy, and you should not breed
-Rape jokes are funny!!!
-Sexism isn't an issue. At least, not against women. Women have too much going for them! What about men's rights??
-The disabled are weird, lazy, lying, and always a good punchline to a joke
-Mental illness makes you a freak
-Go kill yourself haha
-You're unattractive because there is a STANDARD, and you don't meet it
-You're disgusting, go eat a salad
-THE LIST
-GOES
-ON

I'M GENUINELY NOT SURE WHICH SIDE I HATE MORE.

What kills me most at the moment, I think, especially personally, is this weeeeeird din around body size, and loving your body because IT'S YOUR BODY.

-Eating disorders mean that you are weak and fake
-Being "fat" means you're disgusting, and it's always your fault
-You HAVE to be between sizes 4 and 10, or you're not good enough
-Even then, 6-8. Golden number.
-But if you're a teen, it's more like oh, 00
-No one is safe
-No one can love themselves
-Everyone MUST hate their bodies and spend countless hours obsessing, and trying to improve themselves- not for their health

But for

SOCIETY

WHAT. THE. FUCK.


STOP.

NO.

I am done with it all. As someone who has BARELY started to accept that I have a problem in the form of a possible eating disorder, this is LITERALLY KILLING ME

IMAGINE THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN HOSPITALIZED FOR IT.

And I'm not just talking about those "sickly" girls who you look at and immediately think "anorexia" (which is pretty presumptuous.)

"Fat" girls can have eating disorders too.

FAT. GIRLS. CAN. HATE. THEIR. BODIES. TOO.

So while I feel that ignoring your health is AWFUL, hating our bodies is NOT THE ANSWER.

But when society promotes not only hating OUR bodies, but everyone else's- and making their bodies our business, and our bodies everyone else's, the world becomes SO TOXIC, because no one ever feels any semblance of confidence.

We can't have happiness, can we?

We must ALWAYS. Hate. Ourselves.

As someone who is simultaneously "too fat", and "too skinny", my head spins every time I see the words "fat acceptance", because I know an anxiety attack is about to come on.

Forgive me if I sound pretentious, but

Shouldn't that be a HUGE fucking red flag?
^^^THIS. I get really upset at the circle-jerk of misinformation that the whole SJW movement seems to be on tumblr. I simply do not acknowledge race, sex, gender, sexual orientation, wealth, background, but despite that, because of traits that I didn't choose, I am somehow labelled as racist, or sexist. I also don't agree with the idea of 'cultural appropriation'; all culture is an amalgamtion of multiple views and ideas. Are PoC not allowed to eat sandwiches because they are of "white culture" and invented by a white man? Of course not. Finally the whole idea of denying the existence of misandry and racism towards traditionally "privileged" people is quite frankly disgusting. All in all, despite being someone they should want to defend (much like the person above), I only end up feeling vilified by SJWs. I guess right-wing racists/homophobes/sexists/transphobes/etc... are worse, but I don't like to align myself with the feminist label in this day and age due to how it treats many people.

[Karkat]

Having recovered from an ED you probably know the difference between healthy and unhealthy eating habbits and rituals.
Being an intelligent person you'd probably know that people get obese (fat) because of bad eating habbits, whether it's emotional eating, compulsive eating, etc.

A healthy body is a body low on fat and high on muscle. It's the way your body can operate best, unless there are conditions that prevent this.
Being overweight and having that much fat is NOT healthy and praising it, even as body positivity, is not beneficial. Fat acceptence should mean fat acceptence, as in the fat that practicaly everyone has a little of. Not fat as in overweight.

The focus in body positivity should be to keep your body in a state that will support you and your mental health by being in a healthy shape, regardless of what tha shape is. By that I mean, no matter what places you keep a little too much fat or muscle, no matter what the shape of your nose or forehead or knees or feet are. Not the amount of actual fat. I don't see why focus should ly in obesity, one of the highest causes of death.

""you are a valuable human being who deserves health and happiness.""
Seems ironic to support fat (obesity) acceptence. If you think they deserve health, you should be telling them to work out, not to praise their bodies.

Not to mention fat acceptence is a movement found on body this, body that. It puts even more focus on the physical instead of the movement behind it.
Why is it that obesity either has to be disgusting, or a "beautiful body that deserves to be worshipped" (literal quote from tumblr).
Why can't obesity be about people that deserve to be treated like people but are putting their bodies into an extremely dangerous state.

The reason people are cruel to obese people is because obesity numbers have skyrocketed, not the other way around. Disgust is a normal and healthy reaction to seeing the many rolls of fat of an obese person. It's like seeing someone with a giant growth on their face, people would automaticaly feel a repulsion regardless of the person.
I'm not saying that's moraly justifiable, but it's a normal human reaction. In any case it should be a factor in convincing obese people to help with their problem.

People with a normal weight will not get the reaction obese people get and will less likely have an ED triggered. IF an obese person get's an eating disorder it's the result of getting slowly up to a point of a body AND mind becoming unhealthier because of their obesity.

And though I hate to say it, rising recorded eating disorder numbers don't mean that much. FIrst of all, more people have acces to or dare to seek help for mental problems which is why they are registered into these kind of statistics. Secondly, the way we see food and our relation with food has changed drasticly, which is caused by and also fuels the obesity problem.
The reason eating disorders are more prevalent might even be because of obesity in the first place, which is why it's even more ridiculous to praise obese bodies.

--------

tl;dr


Yes, accept fat. Also accept muscle. Accept the shape of people's bone structure. Don't accept something as dangerous for both the individual as society like obesity.

That's easy enough to say, but a lot of people take that as "stick your nose in everyone else's business and make them feel bad about themselves."

People can be cruel. Just the other day I was buying quite a few sweets in the store to celebrate having money again and being 18 and all

And I got so many dirty looks. And 13 year old boy smirks.

What if I was getting supplies for a party, or buying gifts for friends, or god knows what? Sure, I was going to eat a large portion

For my birthday. It's fuckin' Murica, no one has an excuse to glare

But I also know how to do things in moderation and I'm a grown ass woman who can take care of herself.

I'm not even that big and people can be cruel.

Anyone who has serious weight issues, especially due to disability or ED already feel bad about their bodies.

Then you have people who look like them like they're the plague, or point fingers, laugh, make jokes. Strangers.

Then, you have the people they have to deal with in day-to-day life who are downright abusive.

There is a HUGE difference between encouraging someone to take care of themselves in a constructive, positive way because you care about them and making passive-aggressive personal attacks because you're a nosy asshole.

People (especially Americans my lord) don't know how to not be nosy assholes. They really don't.

So yeah, there needs to be a little acceptance of "obesity"- just like there needs to be acceptance of addiction, bad habits, and insecurities.

They may appear to be more or less "your fault", but honestly we all have our problems, and expecting everyone to just stop doing/being a thing is ridiculous. We're all human here.

We need to accept our problems in order to overcome them. If we make ourselves feel bad about them, we just drive ourselves further into depression and do stupid shit because we aren't thinking straight.

So while glorifying putting yourself at risk for something dangerous is stepping over the line a bit, overweight people do need to be able to love their bodies. And strive to be healthier because they love themselves and they love their bodies. They need to keep a balanced view of themselves and learn to ignore pricks, because they're everywhere and they really don't contribute anything to society

It's really the same for a lot of things- it's less taking things out of proportion and becoming a narcissist, more keeping a balanced view of yourself.

[Miserabilia]

That's easy enough to say, but a lot of people take that as "stick your nose in everyone else's business and make them feel bad about themselves."

People can be cruel. Just the other day I was buying quite a few sweets in the store to celebrate having money again and being 18 and all

And I got so many dirty looks. And 13 year old boy smirks.

What if I was getting supplies for a party, or buying gifts for friends, or god knows what? Sure, I was going to eat a large portion

For my birthday. It's fuckin' Murica, no one has an excuse to glare

But I also know how to do things in moderation and I'm a grown ass woman who can take care of herself.

I'm not even that big and people can be cruel.

Anyone who has serious weight issues, especially due to disability or ED already feel bad about their bodies.

Then you have people who look like them like they're the plague, or point fingers, laugh, make jokes. Strangers.

Then, you have the people they have to deal with in day-to-day life who are downright abusive.

There is a HUGE difference between encouraging someone to take care of themselves in a constructive, positive way because you care about them and making passive-aggressive personal attacks because you're a nosy asshole.

People (especially Americans my lord) don't know how to not be nosy assholes. They really don't.


None of this is a reason to accept/glorify obesity, but I still completely see what you mean. You're criticizing the way people make others aware of their problems or imperfections, etc etc.

As for the candy part, I"d like to note that there's a different between anti-fat (fat hate) and anti-food ( food hate ).
Healthy people will know that it's okay to ocasionaly eat a lot of candy or a lot of something unhealthy, or even like it. As long as it's balanced with exercise or a proper diet. People who hate on people that like food are just being stupid because there's no real harm being done.



So yeah, there needs to be a little acceptance of "obesity"- just like there needs to be acceptance of addiction, bad habits, and insecurities.

They may appear to be more or less "your fault", but honestly we all have our problems, and expecting everyone to just stop doing/being a thing is ridiculous. We're all human here.

We need to accept our problems in order to overcome them. If we make ourselves feel bad about them, we just drive ourselves further into depression and do stupid shit because we aren't thinking straight.

So while glorifying putting yourself at risk for something dangerous is stepping over the line a bit, overweight people do need to be able to love their bodies. And strive to be healthier because they love themselves and they love their bodies. They need to keep a balanced view of themselves and learn to ignore pricks, because they're everywhere and they really don't contribute anything to society

It's really the same for a lot of things- it's less taking things out of proportion and becoming a narcissist, more keeping a balanced view of yourself.

acceptance of addiction, bad habits, and insecurities.

No, none of these need to be accepted because in all of these cases acceptence is very close to encouragement; accepting people to smoke will encourage them to smoke. We shouldn't accept addiction , bad habbits, and absolutely not insecurities. We should all try to get rid of them as much as possible, that's the point of help. Heck, look at what 50% of this site is about; doing exactly that.

We need to accept our problems in order to overcome them. If we make ourselves feel bad about them, we just drive ourselves further into depression and do stupid shit because we aren't thinking straight.

Well, obviously I can't disaggree with that. But this is acceptence being used in a different way; accept in this sense would mean accept being obese, not accept obesity;
accepting obesity means not trying to get rid of it but accepting being obese means facing the truth about being overweight; and the obvious health hazards that come with it. In no logical way does that (which is very rational) lead to "look at my beautiful stretch marks and double chins".
( not to shame normal people with stretch marks and double chins, I'm refering to overweight people here )

So while glorifying putting yourself at risk for something dangerous is stepping over the line a bit, overweight people do need to be able to love their bodies. And strive to be healthier because they love themselves and they love their bodies. They need to keep a balanced view of themselves and learn to ignore pricks, because they're everywhere and they really don't contribute anything to society

Again something very logical, but there's a different view to it too; being able to love your bodies so they can strive to be healthier is a bit of a contradiction. If someone truly loved their body they would feel no need to get healthier or in better shape. Someone needs to be displeased with their weight to cause them to do something about it.
Then again I totaly see where you're coming from too.
I think we're both having a bit of a different image of fat acceptence.
I've seen one to many images of dangerously obese people saying it's "natural" and "they are in perfect health" and calling fit people "anorexic!", etc.

[Karkat]

None of this is a reason to accept/glorify obesity, but I still completely see what you mean. You're criticizing the way people make others aware of their problems or imperfections, etc etc.

As for the candy part, I"d like to note that there's a different between anti-fat (fat hate) and anti-food ( food hate ).
Healthy people will know that it's okay to ocasionaly eat a lot of candy or a lot of something unhealthy, or even like it. As long as it's balanced with exercise or a proper diet. People who hate on people that like food are just being stupid because there's no real harm being done.






No, none of these need to be accepted because in all of these cases acceptence is very close to encouragement; accepting people to smoke will encourage them to smoke. We shouldn't accept addiction , bad habbits, and absolutely not insecurities. We should all try to get rid of them as much as possible, that's the point of help. Heck, look at what 50% of this site is about; doing exactly that.



Well, obviously I can't disaggree with that. But this is acceptence being used in a different way; accept in this sense would mean accept being obese, not accept obesity;
accepting obesity means not trying to get rid of it but accepting being obese means facing the truth about being overweight; and the obvious health hazards that come with it. In no logical way does that (which is very rational) lead to "look at my beautiful stretch marks and double chins".
( not to shame normal people with stretch marks and double chins, I'm refering to overweight people here )



Again something very logical, but there's a different view to it too; being able to love your bodies so they can strive to be healthier is a bit of a contradiction. If someone truly loved their body they would feel no need to get healthier or in better shape. Someone needs to be displeased with their weight to cause them to do something about it.
Then again I totaly see where you're coming from too.
I think we're both having a bit of a different image of fat acceptence.
I've seen one to many images of dangerously obese people saying it's "natural" and "they are in perfect health" and calling fit people "anorexic!", etc.

If you hate your body, it's just going to screw you up inside. You just fuck yourself over either giving up entirely and doing everything bad for you "because I'm a fatass anyways" or you starve, purge, and exercise yourself into oblivion.

If you learn to love yourself for who you are, THEN take care of the parts of you that are roadblocks in life (because we all have them), you'll succeed.

If you hate yourself and make this your impetus, you'll wind up screwed up in the head- believe me. I know.

And honestly, it's none of our business what anyone else does anyways. If it's not putting anyone else in danger, we should keep our nose out of it best we can bring ourselves to. We don't know what another person's story is, and we sound like jackasses when we act critical of others for no real reason. (Someone else struggling with a vice, bad habit, insecurity, etc. Isn't affecting us most likely. Not one bit.)

If people knew how not to be jackasses, maybe it'd be a different story, but as CollegeHumor eloquently puts it, "everyone's an asshole".

I'd also like to point out that it's a bit problematic how you seem to think it's only ok to have "fat qualities" if you're healthy

They're not affecting a person's actual health- why should someone who is overweight and unhealthy feel bad about something that is unrelated to their health?

They should want to take care of themselves out of love and respect for themselves and try their best to be healthy

But they shouldn't hate themselves for having a weight problem. Or any other problem for that matter.

[Miserabilia]

If you hate your body, it's just going to screw you up inside. You just fuck yourself over either giving up entirely and doing everything bad for you "because I'm a fatass anyways" or you starve, purge, and exercise yourself into oblivion.

If you learn to love yourself for who you are, THEN take care of the parts of you that are roadblocks in life (because we all have them), you'll succeed.

If you hate yourself and make this your impetus, you'll wind up screwed up in the head- believe me. I know.

And honestly, it's none of our business what anyone else does anyways. If it's not putting anyone else in danger, we should keep our nose out of it best we can bring ourselves to. We don't know what another person's story is, and we sound like jackasses when we act critical of others for no real reason. (Someone else struggling with a vice, bad habit, insecurity, etc. Isn't affecting us most likely. Not one bit.)

If people knew how not to be jackasses, maybe it'd be a different story, but as CollegeHumor eloquently puts it, "everyone's an asshole".

I'd also like to point out that it's a bit problematic how you seem to think it's only ok to have "fat qualities" if you're healthy

They're not affecting a person's actual health- why should someone who is overweight and unhealthy feel bad about something that is unrelated to their health?

They should want to take care of themselves out of love and respect for themselves and try their best to be healthy

But they shouldn't hate themselves for having a weight problem. Or any other problem for that matter.

I see what you mean, though what you're all saying is love your*self* don't hate your*self*, which I"m obviously not going to argue with.
However i don't see what's wrong with hating something about yourself that you can change; it's a motivation, isn't it? It's certainly not the best way to fix problems because it's so negative, but it does work.
I do aggree that too much of it puts one in a negative spiral though.

I just fail to see how "love my rolls" "big is beautiful" "I shouldn't be told to loose weight"
is any different from "I love my cuts" "self harm is beautiful" "I shouldn't be told to stop cutting"

[dirtyboxer55]

I just fail to see how "love my rolls" "big is beautiful" "I shouldn't be told to loose weight"
is any different from "I love my cuts" "self harm is beautiful" "I shouldn't be told to stop cutting"

thats a good point

[Karkat]

I see what you mean, though what you're all saying is love your*self* don't hate your*self*, which I"m obviously not going to argue with.
However i don't see what's wrong with hating something about yourself that you can change; it's a motivation, isn't it? It's certainly not the best way to fix problems because it's so negative, but it does work.
I do aggree that too much of it puts one in a negative spiral though.

I just fail to see how "love my rolls" "big is beautiful" "I shouldn't be told to loose weight"
is any different from "I love my cuts" "self harm is beautiful" "I shouldn't be told to stop cutting"

I guess it depends on the person. With me, that's never worked.

And it isn't so much "I love being fat" as it is "This is my body and I'm going to treat it with care because I deserve to feel good"

[phuckphace]

strong posts ITT from the Cheesemonger +1 figurative rep. I used to think you were a seriously bad poster but lately you're ahead in the polls brah.

the stigma against obesity used to serve as a reinforcement against exactly the kind of problems we're facing now. but now that the Internet and Tumblr exists it's pretty easy for all sorts of subversive muh individualism to spread to and take hold in a big malcontent audience who are super eager to find any justification they can for not helping themselves.

while we can't all get ahead, we can make the choice of one or zero burgers instead of two (good place to start)

[Atom]

You know when you see/hear/read about a thing and then you start noticing this thing popping up everywhere?
I am surprised I was unaware about SJWs before, and what a cancer they are. Ok, tumblr many people may not even take seriously, but this crap doesn't affect just tumblr or some other site. People nowadays just sue others who disagree with their opinion or if they get "offended." Since when is it illegal to offend anyone? I'm talking about the US here because I have not yet witnessed this shit in my country.
And what motivated me to write this was a video about racial/political segregation in US colleges and universities. About how students are threatened/sued/ridiculed for having a different opinion. And often even professors support this nonsense.
In my university we talk with professors about all kinds of taboo stuff, but there are never any threats or hate. If we don't agree with each other - we debate.
When did America turn into the Soviet Union?

Does this really happen in universities and colleges across the US?