Even though God might not exist, the bible teaches us good morals and values.

[happytimes]

The topic basically explained itself. I have to give credit to Hauptmann Kauffman. He inspired me to post this thread. Again, even though God might not exist (we'll probably never find out until we die), I have to say that the bible have shaped me into the man I am today. I think the morals and values in the bible are worth following. I still go to church every Sunday not because I believe in God but because it teaches me good morals and values. Not to mention all our laws are based on the values of our bible (at least for Canada and the U.S.).

[Dolphus Raymond]

I'm not sure I'd say that our laws were created on the basis of the Bible -- at least not our longest-lasting ones. I think they are mainly based on trans-religion stuff. Murder/theft/adultery being wrong wasn't an originally Christian concept. I totally agree with you, though. I definitely think that most of the Bible's laws are very valuable. It teaches wonderful lessons about compassion, human justice and moral behavior.

I don't agree with everything it says (like on homosexuality), but between moral apathy and the Bible...you can do a lot worse than the Bible, in my opinion. :) And anything that gets people thinking about ethical living is a good thing to me!

And, as a community force...churches do some great stuff for the downtrodden and depressed. I just hope that - if we do end up becoming a predominately secular culture - we still have an institution like the neighborhood church. There are too few community centers in this country.

[*Dissident*]

And the Bible's views are based on pack instinct. Which are based on millions of years of trial and error. Which is based on error.

So, our laws are based on error.

Nuff said.

[Hauptmann Kauffman]

Exactly. The Bible's rules to live by are good, but any decent moral human being already knowsd not to do those things; its not like we thought we could rampantly kill and steal without any guilt before the Bible came into our lives :rolleyes:

[Dolphus Raymond]

Exactly. The Bible's rules to live by are good, but any decent moral human being already knowsd not to do those things; its not like we thought we could rampantly kill and steal without any guilt before the Bible came into our lives :rolleyes:

But is everyone capable of auditing themselves in that way? I don't think so.

[Hauptmann Kauffman]

No, there are some people who require some sort of handbook, but its not like people fully obey the rules in the Bible anyway. Its up to society to educate the few individuals who, for some reason, have a lesser moral compass

[japanman]

I just dont understand why commen sense is so un commen the bible is a good moral book but that doesnt stop the ppl who dont use commen sense ugh i just dont get it.

[happytimes]

And the Bible's views are based on pack instinct. Which are based on millions of years of trial and error. Which is based on error.

So, our laws are based on error.

Nuff said.

No, what I mean is the commandments such as thou shall not kill, honor your parents, etc...

[Dolphus Raymond]

No, there are some people who require some sort of handbook, but its not like people fully obey the rules in the Bible anyway. Its up to society to educate the few individuals who, for some reason, have a lesser moral compass

How do we do that, though? Just through a legal system? Part of me thinks that religion is essential to some parts of society, and we at least need some kind of tofu-religion. Some people just aren't capable of understanding the concept of "greater good" and need an objective moral force to punish them for it...

no one here, just - y'know - "people."

[Trampster]

No, what I mean is the commandments such as thou shall not kill, honor your parents, etc...

Which normal people will do anyway.

Tbh, I don't think the bible is needed. Rules/laws like this are passed down through generations, and things like norms and values which shape society.

Fair enough it worked for you, but for others, it may not.

[JoshDude]

I know the bible does teach us some ethics and moral values, but there are parts that make me cringe.

God asks Abraham to sacrifice his son to show he is faithful. Ethical? No.

Unfortunately this is the only example I have at this stage, but another part of the bible that somebody else might know more about is when, a father* lets several men* rape his daughter*

* Unsure of Names - Sorry.

[Mzor203]

Yes, I don't really know much about the bible, since the last time I read I put it down going, "Wtf is wrong with this thing?" There were several places where the actions of certain people (I can't remember anything right now) made me very confused, mainly because I thought the bible was supposed to tell good things.
It was werid to me because there were places where someone, like god, would say what is right, and what is wrong, blah blah, and then in one of the stories someone would do something that was obviously un-moral, so yeah.

[Dolphus Raymond]

Not ethical to us, but the Christian religion teaches that following God is the ultimate justice, and therefore everything done in His service is ethical.

When it comes to, like, sacrificing children, that gets a little scary to me. But that's the Old Testament for you.

[Andrew56]

Dolphus is right.

God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son as a show of obedience and faith. He didn't actually end up killing him, did you know that?

As he was about too, God provided a ram for him to sacrifice instead, and told him to do so.

[Mzor203]

I know, but Abraham would've just went ahead and did it if God hadn't intervened, and just planning on killing your child without hesitation. It just isn't right.

[Andrew56]

Yes it is, because it all belongs to God. If God tells you to give it up, it's not yours to disagree over.

[Mzor203]

Then god has some issues. We all know it's wrong to throw someone on an altar and stab him one good. So if I were a christian and god told me to do that, bye bye christianity for me. Why would god make us suffer for no good reason?

[Andrew56]

God's justice system is not ours. We may think His ways are harsh, but they are not.

He created everything, and we came up with what we think is just and moral. When we should submit to His will and authority.

[Dolphus Raymond]

God's justice system is not ours. We may think His ways are harsh, but they are not.

He created everything, and we came up with what we think is just and moral. When we should submit to His will and authority.

Do you understand why some of us are skeptical because--

1. God provides very little way to know which commands are real (since apparently he expected a suspension of "thou shalt not kill") and what are simply delusions/the devil.

2. We see some of those vague commands as being potentially evil/dangerous, and cannot let them stand.

I mean, I doubt you'd kill your son because you thought you heard God. Would you? I couldn't, even if I were convinced it were God. I'd kill myself and take the responsibility for it.

Damn, morose shit.

[Andrew56]

Do you understand why some of us are skeptical because--

1. God provides very little way to know which commands are real (since apparently he expected a suspension of "thou shalt not kill") and what are simply delusions/the devil.

2. We see some of those vague commands as being potentially evil/dangerous, and cannot let them stand.

I mean, I doubt you'd kill your son because you thought you heard God. Would you? I couldn't, even if I were convinced it were God. I'd kill myself and take the responsibility for it.

Damn, morose shit.

We disagree, but how foolish would I be to not see how one could be skeptical? I would be amazed beyond expression if most people were not skeptical.

God was much more, "Here I am, in person, I'm Jesus, here's what you do." around that time then He is now. I don't think anyone would listen to their spirit to the point of killing their own child. But when you're looking at Jesus, and you're a believer and faithful follower, and He tells you to do something . . . it's goin' down.

[Prince Jellyfish]

We disagree, but how foolish would I be to not see how one could be skeptical? I would be amazed beyond expression if most people were not skeptical.

God was much more, "Here I am, in person, I'm Jesus, here's what you do." around that time then He is now. I don't think anyone would listen to their spirit to the point of killing their own child. But when you're looking at Jesus, and you're a believer and faithful follower, and He tells you to do something . . . it's goin' down.

In the opinion of the philosopher Kierkegaard, Abraham was the only truly faithful man, as others would have had some sort of doubt seeing as how before telling him to kill Isaac he told him that Isaac would father all nations and whatnot. So, Abraham's unflinching faith is something that is not repeatable, as everyone has their moments of doubt. Abraham is a knight of faith, as he lives in this world and believes that God will provide for him without a doubt. However, most Christians are not knights of faith. Rather, they are knights of infinite resignation because they have given up this world in favor of believing that happiness will be achieved only in the next world through suffering and sacrifice in this world.

[Andrew56]

In the opinion of the philosopher Kierkegaard, Abraham was the only truly faithful man, as others would have had some sort of doubt seeing as how before telling him to kill Isaac he told him that Isaac would father all nations and whatnot. So, Abraham's unflinching faith is something that is not repeatable, as everyone has their moments of doubt. Abraham is a knight of faith, as he lives in this world and believes that God will provide for him without a doubt. However, most Christians are not knights of faith. Rather, they are knights of infinite resignation because they have given up this world in favor of believing that happiness will be achieved only in the next world through suffering and sacrifice in this world.

No reason for any sacrifice or suffering at all during my body's lifetime. Just self-control and self-respect.

Everyone doubts their faith and falters along the way. I argee with Kierkegaard.

[Dolphus Raymond]

We disagree, but how foolish would I be to not see how one could be skeptical? I would be amazed beyond expression if most people were not skeptical.

I'm sorry. I'm probably being presumptive. Your approach to Christianity is a lot more pragmatically humanistic than a lot of people's, and I keep failing to recognize that.

This is really just me struggling to shift the tone of the discussion from what I'm used to. See, I almost typed "debate" there...which probably tells you about where I am.

If I keep failing to give you basic credit like that, feel free to call me out a lot less kindly than you just did.

God was much more, "Here I am, in person, I'm Jesus, here's what you do." around that time then He is now. I don't think anyone would listen to their spirit to the point of killing their own child. But when you're looking at Jesus, and you're a believer and faithful follower, and He tells you to do something . . . it's goin' down.

I guess so. Honestly I haven't read the Bible enough to remember whether Abraham had seen miraculous works that would suggest true divine involvement. If he had I guess that makes the whole thing a little less scary to us contemporary people.

But, vox dei and belief inclusive, I just couldn't fathom doing that. I suppose that's a degree of faith on my part--that is just not part of my vision of a loving God. Oh, well. Old Testament.

[The Batman]

And don't forget that it was only a test to his faith and that god wasn't going to let him really kill his son.

[Techno Monster]

The bible teaches very good morals most of which correspond with our justice system. Also these morals teach good traits among people and help make this world a better place. I have a question, what if there was no Christianity, and no morals what would this world be like then???

[Hauptmann Kauffman]

The bible teaches very good morals most of which correspond with our justice system. Also these morals teach good traits among people and help make this world a better place. I have a question, what if there was no Christianity, and no morals what would this world be like then???

We would still have morals if there wasnt Christianity. It is impossible for there to be no morals, and I can imagine a world w/out them. But a world W/Out Christianity is what we are actually beginning to see already. Christianity and Islam and Hinduism and Judaism are barely growing, while non-faith group is growing larger and larger. Heck, more people believe in Alternative medicine and Chi and Chakras than God! SO the world would basically be the same Reaper

[Prince Jellyfish]

the bible also teachers how to sell your daughter into slavery.

[Dolphus Raymond]

And don't forget that it was only a test to his faith and that god wasn't going to let him really kill his son.

I'm not. My point wasn't that God is a jerk for making him kill his son...my point was that, if someone modernly heard voices "from God" telling them to kill their kid, would you expect them to have faith and follow through?

It's a lame point though.

[The Batman]

I wasn't directing it at you I was just letting others know

[Andrew56]

I'm not. My point wasn't that God is a jerk for making him kill his son...my point was that, if someone modernly heard voices "from God" telling them to kill their kid, would you expect them to have faith and follow through?

It's a lame point though.

100% right. I think anyone would talk themselves out of it. Even if they felt strongly moved to do so, everyone, including Christians, would think they were mentally insane for even considering it.

And because of that, I highly doubt the Spirit is moving people to see if they would go that far.

There is a difference between Jesus telling you to do something, and the Holy Spirit telling you to do something.

[Prince Jellyfish]

100% right. I think anyone would talk themselves out of it. Even if they felt strongly moved to do so, everyone, including Christians, would think they were mentally insane for even considering it.

And because of that, I highly doubt the Spirit is moving people to see if they would go that far.

There is a difference between Jesus telling you to do something, and the Holy Spirit telling you to do something.

No kidding! The Holy Spirit once tricked me into lending Him $50!:mad:

[Andrew56]

No kidding! The Holy Spirit once tricked me into lending Him $50!:mad:

Hahaha.:lol:

But I must say, the Spirit leads, it doesn't trick.

So what does this mean, you were at a church and you felt compelled to give $50?

[Oblivion]

I think that the bible could teach morals and help keep people in line, even if you don't necessarily believe what you read... But personally i have never read any part of the bible or any other holy book, nor ever gone to a church of any kind, and my parents always get compliments on behavior.

[Techno Monster]

I have only read a few parts of the bible.
I also don't let religion define most of what I do, when I die I don't want to think "Why didn't I do that because I was afraid to" or have regrets.

[Prince Jellyfish]

Hahaha.:lol:

But I must say, the Spirit leads, it doesn't trick.

So what does this mean, you were at a church and you felt compelled to give $50?

What's the most you've ever lost in a coin toss?

[Andrew56]

What's the most you've ever lost in a coin toss?

A sandwich, and a punch to the arm.

[Prince Jellyfish]

Edit- Image removed due to offensiveness.

[Bobby]

Stay on topic guys.

[The Batman]

That doesn't make any sense what does it have to do with anything

[Nihilus]

well Which testament. But yes I agree with the fact that the bible teachs good moral and stuff like like that.

[The Harlequin]

I think if you're a Christian, what you believe should not be dictated to you by someone else. There are so many contradictions in the Bible that as it stands I can't help but look on it as a book of metaphor. The OT is basically the best selection of fables you can find and the NT serves to clarify all that in a context of sorts...

Whether or not all that jazz happened in the Bible and exactly as it says... I dunno... If that is the case then God 'ent been keeping in touch recently... (:^.

-- The Harlequin

[INFERNO]

The bible does teach morals and values but much of what is said in it has to do with the time it was written, hence, it reflects the social context, sort of a series of snapshots of how that time may have been. This is especially apparent in the Old Testament and parts of the New Testament for slaughtering, punishing, the justice system, etc... .

But at the end of the day, after you look past the killing and whatnot, the bible is simply about loving one another, compassion, forgiveness, treating others as how you would be treated and so forth.

I'm not sure if the bible was meant to be taken as completely metaphorical or completely literal. As with all literature, I think it's meant to be open to interpretation providing you don't butcher it up and make a mess of it, and still adhere to the general philosophy of it (i.e. compassion, etc...). The stuff of the killing and such I think at one point in time was meant to be taken as literal because it fit with the social context but nowadays, as our social norms are different (perhaps still some similarities) it's meant to be taken metaphorical.

The numerous stories in there I think are just meant to show the morals and be taken metaphorical. For example, the whole bit with the Garden of Eden has to be looked past or reading between the lines and understanding that it can show the rise or progression of humanity as they began as unaware of god's right and wrong, being innocent, etc... to adulthood. The snake part can be seen as a reflection of how they were as a child with no real moral understanding.

[The Harlequin]

Interesting comment, and reflecting attitudes of the time is particularly accurate as the Bible was written in a way that would encourage Jews to become Christain, thereby it says nothing about slavery being wrong (wouldn't want to put off wealthy businessmen from joining) but then later on says rich people shluld give away all their money (thereby getting it off him - I know, I don't think it's particularly clever either)

Interesting fact is that in the very earliest of Christianity's days you HAD to become a Jew - THEN a Christian, but was relatively quickly changed to allow anyone to just become Christian/begin the process.

-- The Harlequin

[ThatCanadianGuy]

Any of the "good things" the bible teaches are definitely NOT unique to that book. Holy texts of all sorts of religions demonstrate some similar tenets (i.e. thou shalt not kill) not because they are divinely inspired, but because humans as social creatures have developed a morality that benefits us to live together relatively peacefully. With the fact that the bible offers nothing "special" in comparison to any other religious book, AND along with the HORRIBLE things it teaches (i.e. homosexuals should be put to death, along with unruly children, etc.) makes the bible in my opinion a great source of harm to humanity. Much more harm than help, in any case.

[vito22andolini]

I think the bible isnt teaching any good

[Kaleidoscope Eyes]

This thread was over a year old, please do not bump.

Edit: Meant to lock this thread, then realized it wasn't in the section I thought it was. It should be locked with the appropriate moderator comes along, though.